Latest / Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News / Infection control vs damage control

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Infection control vs damage control · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:06
  Welcome to the unto take a deep breath.
• 0:11
  Take the higher road.
• 0:13
  It's what they always say.
• 0:14
  As if they know the way, they won't take it from me.
• 0:20
  Don't have a dump yourself for slapping just a dream.
• 0:24
  You made your own so kid can scream.
• 0:27
  The people who were lap with a never ending force.
• 0:31
  You never have the chance.
• 0:33
  So watch it with my friend, because this is whole.
• 0:44
  It's time and this is one.
• 0:53
  If you're listening to this episode of The Nurses Report on your Bluetooth earbuds, prepare to be a little bit uncomfortable.
• 1:01
  And if you're squeamish about cleanliness, also prepare to be a little bit uncomfortable.
• 1:07
  I'm excited to have this conversation with nurses Nicole and Ashley.
• 1:11
  My name is David Wayne.
• 1:13
  I'm a nurse with a background in hospital psychiatry.
• 1:16
  Nicole, welcome to the Nurses Report.
• 1:19
  So glad to be here, Dave.
• 1:20
  And for those of you that don't know, my name is Nicole.
• 1:23
  I go by nurse Nicole.
• 1:24
  I'm a Central Florida registered nurse in the acute care setting for about 20 years, predominantly in cardiac, and I do a lot of stuff on a local and state level when it comes to state legislation on medical freedom, bodily sovereignty, and the right to choose, and also run a very large chest pain program.
• 1:40
  And very excited about this topic because it's cold and flu season, everyone.
• 1:44
  Hand washing is important.
• 1:45
  It is cold and flu season, and uh yes, hand hygiene is very important.
• 1:50
  Ashley, welcome.
• 1:51
  Yes, I'm currently a victim of the flu or recovering victim of the flu.
• 1:58
  Uh hand hygiene.
• 2:00
  Clearly, because you didn't get your flu shot, you dangerous anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist.
• 2:04
  Obviously, I mean, you know, that negative efficacy might have made it worse.
• 2:09
  Can we say that now?
• 2:10
  Can we say, since they always say, oh, I got my flu shot, so it's better.
• 2:14
  Well, the flu shot has negative efficacy, so my flu probably wasn't as bad as it would have been had I gotten my flu vaccine.
• 2:21
  Yeah, yeah.
• 2:21
  It's you know, we are seeing hospitals filling up with people with uh influenza A, and oh, what do you know?
• 2:27
  They picked the wrong strains again this year.
• 2:29
  That's weird.
• 2:30
  It's not like we predicted that.
• 2:31
  We've we've been over the flu shot playbook on multiple different episodes.
• 2:36
  So this is along those lines, though.
• 2:38
  This is along that theme.
• 2:40
  This is about how germs pass from person to person.
• 2:43
  So this is gonna be an interesting one.
• 2:46
  We're going to talk about this new tool that hospital staff have at their disposal regarding hand hygiene, and it's called the biovigil system.
• 2:57
  It's essentially this little plastic jobber that clips to your scrubs and monitors staff to make sure they're being compliant with frequently performing hand hygiene.
• 3:09
  And rather than try and describe it, we're going to take it straight from the company itself, and we're going to see what they say about it.
• 3:20
  Proper hand hygiene is critical with every patient interaction.
• 3:24
  Most hospitals have hand hygiene compliance rates of less than 50%, which leads to increased hospital-acquired infections and 75,000 annual deaths.
• 3:36
  Okay, I gotta pause it right there.
• 3:38
  75,000 annual deaths that well.
• 3:42
  Have you guys heard anything like this before?
• 3:44
  Talking about lack of hand hygiene, assuming we're talking about nosocomial infections.
• 3:50
  That's what they're it's they seem to be implying to me.
• 3:53
  So is that real or is this just marketing?
• 3:56
  I mean, let's do a quick Google search while we continue.
• 3:58
  All right.
• 4:14
  Our hardware includes a smart wearable, sink sensors, and room beacons.
• 4:19
  With no IT requirements, installation is simple, and the experienced biovigil team takes care of any maintenance.
• 4:26
  Additionally, BioVigil works with your dispensers, so there is no need to switch products.
• 4:32
  Upon starting a shift, a staff member scans their hospital ID at a base station.
• 4:37
  A badge lights up white, is picked up and clipped onto their uniform.
• 4:43
  Upon entering a patient care area, a sealing beacon's infrared curtain triggers the badge's reminder sequence with a beep, vibration, and color change from green to yellow.
• 4:54
  After applying hand sanitizer, the worker cups a hand near the bio vigil batch.
• 4:59
  A sensor detects the alcohol vapor.
• 5:02
  Confirming sanitizer was used.
• 5:04
  This pledge, as we call it, changes the light back to green, as well as records the hygiene opportunity, what time it took place, and in what patient room.
• 5:14
  If the worker fails to perform hand hygiene, the badge will continue to beep, vibrate, and eventually turn red.
• 5:21
  This okay.
• 5:23
  So you go into a room, you have this sensor on you that detects you've entered the room, and then it requires you to perform hand hygiene, and it measures that by you know, you wave your hand in front of it, and it will hopefully detect the alcohol gel coming off your hand.
• 5:40
  I've seen these things in action, and man, they piss nurses off because a lot of the time they'll wave their hand in front of it, and for whatever reason, it doesn't detect that the alcohol gel has been used, and then it starts chirping at them and it turns red and starts vibrating at them.
• 5:59
  So I have seen these things thrown across the room.
• 6:03
  I see them left around hospital units on counters all the time.
• 6:07
  I see them left in break rooms.
• 6:10
  I've seen them interfere with patient interactions when a staff member's trying to talk to someone and this thing is interrupting them and it's chirping at them.
• 6:19
  So have either of you seen these, Nicole.
• 6:22
  Do they use these in your hospital?
• 6:25
  We don't currently have them in the hospital now.
• 6:28
  I do know of the previous hospital that I worked in that they do the thought process for them is understandable because you know, uh, death in the United States uh due to negligence, medical errors, and stuff like that.
• 6:43
  And again, we just did a quick Google search, nosochomial infections per the Google search is 90 to 100,000 deaths a year.
• 6:50
  I could see why this is so important, but working bedside and the strategicness of it and having it flow with the lack of staffing and lack of resources, high acuity, and the uh piss poor nurse-to-patient ratios.
• 7:07
  I can see where this is not favored, and something that would be very um annoying to have to deal with in addition to a million interruptions, phone calls being pulled in a million different directions.
• 7:19
  It's not really setting people up for success, but actually slowing them down.
• 7:23
  And in some cases, I would imagine cause people to uh not be truthful on the task at hand that they're carrying out or not.
• 7:30
  Yeah, I think so too.
• 7:32
  Ashley, let me get you to weigh in at this point.
• 7:34
  Yeah, I've not seen these, obviously, been out of the hospital for about 10 years.
• 7:38
  Absolutely insane.
• 7:40
  Just with the constant irritation.
• 7:44
  You go into a patient room.
• 7:46
  I I always practice hand hygiene.
• 7:49
  Like that was one of my big things because the last thing I want to do is get somebody else sick, and I also don't want to be carrying around and potentially getting myself sick.
• 7:59
  So that was something that was huge.
• 8:01
  I hate alcohol spray foam, so I would wash my hands all the time.
• 8:05
  I would wash them on entry, I would wash them on exit.
• 8:08
  If I was running quickly into a patient room because they needed something, of course, I would pop the spray foam, you know, rub it in really quickly.
• 8:15
  What a barrier to care and an effective communication.
• 8:20
  That would be, you know, you're rubbing in your your sanitizer, you're hovering over this stupid badge on your chest, you're using another hand maybe to tap your badge so you can chart, ugh, and could you imagine this thing going off during a code?
• 8:34
  Not because you didn't do hand hygiene, but because of the fact that you can't hold your dang hand there long enough, and I would be the smart aleck who would fill my hand with foam, slap it on the thing, and go on about my business.
• 8:46
  I'd probably ruin all the stupid things, but then maybe that wouldn't be an issue any longer.
• 8:50
  I don't know.
• 8:51
  Did you guys catch that bit about location tracking that this thing is keeping track as you enter and exit different locations around the hospital and around your unit?
• 9:03
  It kind of actually is heartening to me that one of the biggest criticisms that BioVigil receives from nurses and bedside staff is that this is incredibly Orwellian that staff do not like being tracked every minute of their shift.
• 9:20
  We have those trackers in a major regional hospital here, not for hand hygiene, but you have your badge.
• 9:28
  There's three buttons on it for different emergencies or to shut off a call light or whatever, but they track where you're at your entire shift.
• 9:38
  That to me is absolutely insane.
• 9:40
  I mean, part of me gets it, but at the same time, how many of those nurses who are lazy and not actually taking care of their patients are actually being punished for what's going on?
• 9:50
  We're gonna continue with the video here.
• 9:52
  Not only alerts other staff members, it is a powerful visual cue for patients who are empowered to speak up if they.
• 10:00
  See a red hand for rooms where enhanced infection control is required, such as a patient with CGIF, the system can require a hand wash in place of sanitizer.
• 10:09
  That is where accuash technology comes into play.
• 10:13
  This sink sensor interacts with the badge to confirm a hand wash based on proximity, heat sensing, and movement.
• 10:20
  At the end of each shift, the worker places their bio-vigil badge in the base station.
• 10:25
  The data is immediately synced to our cloud-based suite and can be used to track hand hygiene compliance on an individual unit or hospital-wide level.
• 10:35
  This provides opportunities to reward individuals and teams for outstanding compliance, as well as identify and coach those who need help.
• 10:44
  Hospitals who use biovigil prevent tens of thousands of cross-contamination events each year.
• 10:50
  But when it does occur, the data suite quickly identifies the source, along with every patient and staff member who was exposed.
• 10:57
  A process that without this technology can take days to complete.
• 11:01
  Since the captured data includes entry and exit times for each patient room, you can also conduct staff rounding, optimize labor, and analyze opportunities for efficiencies.
• 11:13
  The results our partner hospitals achieve are not only impressive, but realized quickly after installation.
• 11:19
  With a hundred observations per bed per day, we blow direct observation out of the water while sustaining 97% compliance.
• 11:28
  Reporting to government agencies, as well as leapfrog, is a breeze.
• 11:32
  By something as simple as wearing this smart badge, you can dramatically reduce infections, eliminate hack penalties, free up beds to serve others in the community, and enhance patient experience.
• 11:44
  There are more benefits, as well as information about biovigil than can be covered in a short video.
• 11:50
  So please contact us to learn more about how we can solve hand hygiene at your hospital.
• 12:00
  Nothing like having somebody leave their cubicle, somebody who never steps foot in patient rooms themselves, and then Monday morning quarterback your previous shift.
• 12:11
  I just our hospitals are becoming absolutely dystopian.
• 12:15
  There are cameras everywhere.
• 12:17
  I don't know how far off it is where we're going to have AI plugged into all these hospital cameras in every area of the hospital, just watching everything all the time.
• 12:27
  I just I don't like it.
• 12:28
  I don't like it.
• 12:29
  Thoughts.
• 12:30
  Well, we currently have in one of the large hospitals I used to work at because of staffing, although they will say it's to enhance patient experience, that there are virtual nurses that will actually be watching patients that are not even in the room but through a computer screen, and just so many things that go along with that.
• 12:49
  But speaking to this particular material that you're talking about, we have these trackers.
• 12:55
  They basically are tracking how often you're going into the room.
• 13:00
  She mentions, you know, the hourly rounding and trying to make sure that we're seeing these patients, and where I agree, yes, patients need to be checked on at certain time intervals.
• 13:09
  The way these work is you just have to pass a certain threshold and it will clock on the badge.
• 13:15
  And so people can just literally put their toe over it, walk in.
• 13:19
  It's the same thing with the hand hygiene.
• 13:21
  There's a lot of ways to go around this, and I'm not promoting that.
• 13:24
  I'm just saying that there's a lot of flaws within the system.
• 13:26
  So for them to say that this is like amazing and end-all be all, and this is something that really can turn things around.
• 13:32
  It can also be used very much um outside of what it's supposed to be and have a lot of workarounds because of the way that it is being utilized in today's age in healthcare, where we work very short.
• 13:45
  Currently in New York, there's a potential strike of 20,000 plus nurses because of staffing shortages and the fact that they're going up to 12 to 1.
• 13:54
  For the listeners, that's 12 patients to one nurse.
• 13:56
  And so you can see where a lot of these things can affect nurses and how they take care of patients.
• 14:01
  Hand washing is very important.
• 14:03
  And like Ashley says, we can do hand foaming, but this particular device, I can just see where there's a lot of problems with this as well.
• 14:09
  What do you mean 12 to ?
• 14:11
  What kind of units are these?
• 14:13
  So apparently there's a handful of hospitals in New York right now that in the next couple of days have given their union a notice to go on strike.
• 14:21
  Interestingly enough, it has nothing to do with money.
• 14:24
  It is to do with the lack of benefits that are being pulled from them, the increase in ratios, which some have said some are going up to 12 to , working short and um, you know, not being given the adequate breaks.
• 14:36
  So yeah.
• 14:37
  You want to fix hand hygiene?
• 14:39
  Let me tell you how you do it.
• 14:40
  Have appropriate patient to nurse ratios.
• 14:42
  Exactly.
• 14:42
  You want to worry about how often your patient gets seen or whether or not they're being neglected.
• 14:48
  Fix patient nurse ratios.
• 14:50
  Like, this is not rocket science.
• 14:52
  Dave made that comment about, you know, the fact that somebody's stepping out of their cubicle.
• 14:56
  This is the exact kind of crap that would come out of these stupid committees that I would be on to make it nanny state.
• 15:04
  So, well, you know, more scrutiny equals compliance.
• 15:07
  No, the people who aren't gonna do it are gonna find the workarounds.
• 15:11
  The people who are busting their butts and trying to do things the right way are going to be punished because they're gonna find something to nitpick because they're unwilling to be unethical.
• 15:20
  It's absolutely ridiculous.
• 15:22
  Yeah, it's the sort of thing that squeezes the good people out of the system for sure.
• 15:27
  One of the first thoughts I had about this too, and you could see this in the video is that we have all these nurses strapping this thing right to their chest.
• 15:36
  And healthcare professionals are predominantly female.
• 15:40
  So are these things safe?
• 15:41
  These things are constantly transmitting signals, and it makes you wonder like, okay, we have growing rates of breast and lung cancer amongst women.
• 15:52
  Those are the two most common types of cancer for women, and cancer is one of the biggest killers of women in this country.
• 15:59
  If you are a nurse and you're working full time and you're potentially strapping this thing onto your chest for decades, what kind of safety testing do we have around technology like this?
• 16:10
  And this is a rabbit hole I've kind of been intending to go down for a long time, and I've just really dabbled my toes in, but already I've seen enough to kind of be terrified.
• 16:21
  So the background is that back in 1996, our Congress, in all their wisdom decided to defund the department at the environmental protection agency that was looking into the safety of Wi-Fi and these different RF radiation and different signaling systems, and they transferred it to the FCC.
• 16:43
  And the FCC is completely corrupt and controlled by industry, controlled by Motorola and Verizon and Sprint and ATT and all the giant corporations who benefit financially from not finding any safety issues with all these technologies.
• 16:59
  And what they essentially decided in 1996 is you know what?
• 17:04
  Regarding all this wireless technology, we settled the science back in the 1980s.
• 17:09
  We don't need to do any more safety studies.
• 17:13
  So before DVDs were even a thing, they decided that we don't need to look at the safety of these products.
• 17:22
  Look at people's homes now, not just their cell phones, but now we have people's fridges and their thermostats are on their Wi-Fi.
• 17:30
  We have Bluetooth, we have earbuds, we have 5G towers outside our homes, and our government in its infinite wisdom has decided that the safety studies done back in the 1980s still cover today's modern world.
• 17:45
  Have either of you been down the rabbit hole of the safety of these of these wireless technologies?
• 17:52
  This is one of the things covered at the National Health Freedom Congress in 2022.
• 17:57
  I learned so much, and it was absolutely terrifying.
• 18:01
  And this is one of the things that I thought about at that conference is not even just in the homes, but we think about all the electronics in the hospital.
• 18:08
  You've got computers in every room.
• 18:10
  I worked on a telemetry unit and heart failure units, so we had that.
• 18:14
  I mean, the massive amounts of EMF circulating through and probably bouncing around, being amplified, plus all of these sensors, absolutely mind-boggling, and you know, so much of what we do as medical professionals is dose dependency.
• 18:30
  So you go back to the 1980s, the technology, Wi-Fi was not a thing.
• 18:35
  You know, I just I don't it's another one of those things.
• 18:38
  How could how could they assume that the science is settled?
• 18:42
  Well, it's it's that pattern though, and we call this out when we see it with pharmaceuticals.
• 18:46
  It's they intentionally avoid generating safety data, and then they say, Well, this is safe because there's no proof it's not.
• 18:53
  It's exactly the same playbook they use with childhood vaccines where they do five days of safety monitoring with no placebo control, and then they say, Well, there's no evidence that there's a safety issue.
• 19:05
  It's the exact same playbook, but they they do it across the board.
• 19:09
  It's it's you know, ATT and Pfizer apparently get their executives together and go, you know what works well.
• 19:16
  Here's here's the playbook, Nicole.
• 19:18
  I mean, not not necessarily being an expert on the wireless stuff, but as we know, we we hear all these things about EMF and frequency and and all these other things.
• 19:28
  I do know that with all these 5G towers and all of these things coming out with that and having all of the exposure and people that are living close to these and what that does.
• 19:38
  Granted, obviously it's it's a bigger, you know, situation, but I mean it's literally cooking people.
• 19:44
  And so I can't see where us wearing these devices in the hospital and keeping these things close by.
• 19:51
  I mean, in the emergency department that I work on, you know, we have we have earbuds, right?
• 19:56
  They have a walkie-talkie that goes into the ear all day, they have another phone.
• 20:00
  Phone that they carry that might carry their personal phone.
• 20:02
  So they're walking around with all these devices, trying to keep in contact with people.
• 20:06
  So every time you keep adding something, you don't have any safety studies to say that all of these things put together or normal or okay.
• 20:13
  And so I think the answer to that is very obvious.
• 20:15
  There are none.
• 20:16
  There probably is never going to be safety centers done and to match all the technology that we have, plus wearing things in our ears and everything else and going directly to our brain.
• 20:25
  So it can be very concerning.
• 20:27
  And again, one of the things that there was an article, I don't even know if we covered this, but you know, so many months back where all those nurses and one northern hospital came down with brain tumors, and they were trying to figure out the link to this, and they all had the same one.
• 20:43
  It could it have been, you know, the phones or you know, the different things in the hospital related to technology, you know, who knows?
• 20:49
  But it's just usually trial and error at that point.
• 20:51
  It's people coming forward with problems, and then we see whole cow, like this could be a really big deal.
• 20:57
  Because no one seems to care about the nurses and the hospitals and just in these outpatient settings anyway, so it doesn't surprise me one bit.
• 21:04
  You know, the thing that drives me crazy is when I started in researching holistic nursing and you know, going through a bunch of training programs.
• 21:13
  You learn about Chinese medicine, you learn about the meridians, you learn about energy centers.
• 21:17
  We talk about, you know, EKG is the measure of the electric frequency.
• 21:23
  We know that our bodies are constantly having these chemical electric reactions, sodium potassium, magnesium.
• 21:30
  How can we not assume that these electromagnetic frequencies aren't interfering?
• 21:35
  Is this what is creating endocrine disrupting because it's disrupting the flow of energy through the body?
• 21:42
  Is it causing alteration in the way that those processes happen?
• 21:46
  Not to mention just I mean, radiation, right?
• 21:50
  So there's so much to it, and that's there is a lot to it, and a lot of people talk about mitochondrial dysfunction, about how these possibly contribute to mitochondrial dysfunction, and that's a driver for every disease process in existence.
• 22:04
  But for me, all that is incredibly complex.
• 22:07
  And when I zoom out and I just try and look for these larger overarching patterns that we talk about, the biggest red flag is they're not doing the safety studies, and that's really all I need to know.
• 22:19
  I don't need to become an expert in 5G or in Wi-Fi radiation or in anything like that.
• 22:24
  The fact that they're not doing the safety studies is enough for me to start drawing some conclusions about the safety of these things.
• 22:34
  I'm going to move on and start talking about hospital acquired infections because that was part of the selling point of the video we just watched is how big of a problem is this, how many people are dying of hospital acquired infections.
• 22:48
  And I did try and pull up some numbers.
• 22:50
  What I learned was that about one in 31 hospitalized patients end up having a hospital acquired infection.
• 22:58
  That ends up being about 650,000 patients per year.
• 23:02
  Turns into something like 80,000 deaths from the sources I looked at, and that adds up to about a 35 billion dollar annual burden.
• 23:12
  Estimates are that 50 to 70% of them are preventable.
• 23:16
  So obviously, preventing them is really important, and we do need to recognize that hand hygiene probably plays a really important role in that.
• 23:26
  But diving in a little further into the details of these infections, a lot of them that result in fatalities are hospital acquired pneumonia.
• 23:35
  This, not to completely derail this episode, but this was the actual cause of death of the little girl down in Texas who caught the measles and was unvaccinated.
• 23:44
  She died of hospital acquired pneumonia.
• 23:47
  She did not die of a viral infection from the measles.
• 23:59
  These are not ventilated patients.
• 24:00
  The next leading cause of death for people that acquire an infection in the hospital is from central lines, ports, and dialysis catheters, not from our standard peripheral IVs.
• 24:11
  Next cause is UTIs.
• 24:13
  So this is from Foleys.
• 24:15
  This is where they insert a tube up your urethra, and those sometimes are point of entry for you to get a bacterial infection in your bladder.
• 24:25
  And the other one is surgical site infections.
• 24:27
  So what stands out to me from this list is that these are infections that are being caused by a person's normal flora.
• 24:35
  These are from bacteria that are already on our body.
• 24:39
  These generally aren't from people carrying something in on their hands.
• 24:44
  And it reminds me of what we've talked about before regarding when we see that things are being oversimplified, where we have this kind of we're taught to believe that bacteria are bad.
• 24:57
  We're taught to believe that bacteria are the enemy, they cause infections, and they hurt people.
• 25:02
  When the truth is actually vastly more complex than that, because like it or not, everybody is covered in trillions of bacteria at all times.
• 25:12
  They coat your entire body, they coat your entire digestive tract, and without them, you will die.
• 25:19
  You are in a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria that you're covered with.
• 25:23
  And a lot of these hospital-acquired infections are people getting infected with bacteria that are already on them for one reason or another.
• 25:31
  It's not that they're getting infected with something that somebody is bringing in on their hands.
• 25:36
  And again, I'm not saying hand hygiene is not important.
• 25:39
  It is.
• 25:39
  There's the example of C.
• 25:40
  diff.
• 25:41
  C.
• 25:41
  diff is kind of notorious for not being killed by alcohol gel.
• 25:44
  It's also not killed by soap and water.
• 25:46
  So the way you get it off your hands is you wash under running water and they are it's removed by friction.
• 25:53
  But we've actually reached a point where most people get C.
• 25:56
  diff out in the community.
• 25:58
  Most people don't even get C.
• 25:59
  diff in the hospital anymore.
• 26:00
  I was surprised by all these numbers.
• 26:02
  I'm not saying hand hygiene isn't important, but when you look at what is driving infections and driving deaths from hospital-acquired infections, people are getting infected with bacteria that are already on their body.
• 26:14
  I think I don't want to derail you, but I'd love to talk about germ theory versus terrain theory and kind of like dive in.
• 26:21
  I think it could become its own episode.
• 26:23
  I'm really fascinated by this topic.
• 26:25
  I think it's an important one.
• 26:26
  I hear things about bifidobacteria.
• 26:28
  I hear things about the normal flora on children who are born vaginally versus born by C-section.
• 26:35
  The relative health outcomes of children who are given antibiotics at a really young age versus those who aren't.
• 26:42
  There's something here.
• 26:43
  There's there's this is a really interesting topic, and we should devote an entire episode to it.
• 26:49
  And when we come back from the break, we're going to continue talking about hand hygiene.
• 26:54
  But instead of talking about the most modern technology, we're actually going to go back in time a couple hundred years to the sort of initiation of hand hygiene in hospital settings because it is absolutely fascinating, and it actually has a lot to do with what we are seeing within the medical system today.
• 27:14
  So we'll catch you after this break.
• 27:16
  Well, get ready, my fellow Americans.
• 27:18
  July 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.
• 27:21
  America Outloud.
• 27:26
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• 34:05
  You're listening to the Nurses Reports on America Out Loud Talk Radio.
• 34:10
  We are on the air at 10 a.m.
• 34:11
  with an encore at 11 p.m.
• 34:13
  Eastern Standard Time every weekday.
• 34:15
  You can catch a different nurse host on all those days and check out America Outloud.news for just an incredible variety of different authors who have all sorts of different takes on things in the news in our country.
• 34:28
  I am Nurse David, joined by nurses Nicole and Ashley, and we have been talking about hand hygiene for this episode.
• 34:35
  We started by talking about these bio-vigiled hand hygiene systems that are being introduced in hospitals as a way to, well, as a way to make sure that staff are compliant with hand hygiene requirements.
• 34:49
  And there are some red flags here.
• 34:52
  Hand hygiene is certainly an important topic.
• 34:55
  We certainly don't want to see our patients catch infections from something that staff bring into their room.
• 35:02
  But these new technologies are sometimes a double-edged sword, and there's something that we need to maintain a healthy level of skepticism about.
• 35:12
  And we also need to keep an eye on our federal regulators who are supposed to make sure that things that are giving off various types of radiation and different signals aren't actually harmful to us, especially during prolonged exposures in places like hospitals where you're just inundated with different things transmitting on different wavelengths.
• 35:32
  But we're going to take a moment to go back in time.
• 35:36
  We're going to look at where hand hygiene first kind of took hold within the medical establishment.
• 35:42
  And to get there, we need to go back almost 200 years.
• 35:45
  A man named Ignaz Semmelweiss was born in 1818 in what is now Budapest, Hungary.
• 35:52
  Back then it was within the Austrian Empire.
• 35:55
  As a young man, he went to Vienna and started studying law.
• 35:58
  He changed focus to medicine and graduated with a medical doctorate in 1844.
• 36:05
  He went to practice internal medicine at the prestigious Vienna General Hospital.
• 36:09
  But they didn't have a position for him there other than in obstetrics.
• 36:14
  So that was where he started his career.
• 36:16
  He worked under a professor in the training of physicians and midwives on their OB unit.
• 36:22
  The doctors, professors, and midwives at Vienna General Hospital faced a real scourge for their patients.
• 36:29
  About one in five women were becoming infected with what they called childbed fever shortly after giving birth, and it was claiming the lives of about one in five women on Dr.
• 36:40
  Semmelweiss's ward.
• 36:41
  These are women who are showing up to the hospital healthy and they are not leaving.
• 36:47
  Semelweiss made an observation.
• 36:55
  The medical residents training at Vienna General Hospital spent their mornings performing autopsies on cadavers.
• 37:02
  They were elbow deep in corpses.
• 37:04
  Not only were there no gloves, there was no hand hygiene.
• 37:07
  Then they spent their afternoons delivering babies.
• 37:10
  During one of these autopsies, Semmelweiss's friend and colleague accidentally nicked his finger with a scalpel.
• 37:17
  He became septic from the small wound and died.
• 37:20
  Semelweiss noticed that his friend's symptoms were the same as the women dying on the maternity ward.
• 37:26
  This was before germ theory.
• 37:28
  Doctors didn't know about bacteria yet.
• 37:31
  But the connection to Semelweiss became clear.
• 37:34
  Even if the explanation wasn't there yet scientifically.
• 37:38
  Cleanliness matters.
• 37:40
  Semmelweiss conducted an experiment.
• 37:42
  He had the medical students wash their hands with chlorinated lime water after performing autopsies before tending to the women on the maternity ward.
• 37:52
  And the results were immediate and unmistakable.
• 37:56
  The cases of childbed fever dropped drastically on his ward from about 20% down to about 1%.
• 38:04
  He collected all the data and he published it.
• 38:07
  The year was 1848.
• 38:09
  Ashley, any predictions on whether or not his colleagues were grateful about this.
• 38:15
  Do you think that there was a widespread change in protocols immediately after he published his data?
• 38:21
  I know this story, so it's not really fair.
• 38:24
  Absolutely.
• 38:26
  Absolutely not.
• 38:27
  No widespread changes.
• 38:28
  In fact, he was ridiculed and laughed out of, you know, out of the ward, essentially.
• 38:33
  Yeah, Nicole, have you heard this story before?
• 38:35
  I've heard parts of it.
• 38:36
  I haven't heard the in-depth version, but it's quite impressive.
• 38:40
  You said 20% down to one.
• 38:42
  Yeah.
• 38:42
  That's significant.
• 38:43
  And so to have that kind of information, and then to hear you guys say that he was completely disregarded and mocked is kind of surprising.
• 38:52
  Because you would think you'd want less adverse outcomes in death.
• 38:55
  So whoa, why was that?
• 38:56
  Yeah, you would think if you had such stark results, I mean going from 20% down to 1%, collecting all that data, like that is such a home run in terms of evidence-based practice and evidence-based medicine and the scientific process and all those things.
• 39:11
  And yet, his peers, like Ashley said, they did not get on board with this.
• 39:17
  In fact, they reacted to him with a lot of hostility.
• 39:21
  There's a parallel there to nursing, because this is the exact time frame that the essentially patron saint of nursing, Florence Nightingale was out there doing her thing.
• 39:32
  She was a contemporary to Dr.
• 39:34
  Semmelweiss, though they never actually overlapped professionally.
• 39:38
  She, during the Crimean War, volunteered as a superintendent of nurses at the British Barracks Hospital near Istanbul, and she was very militant about keeping things clean.
• 39:51
  She had the staff there scrubbing floors, scrubbing walls, improving ventilation, laundering linens, cleaning medical equipment, and of course cleaning their hands.
• 40:00
  And after she implemented all of that, the death rate at the hospital dropped drastically, just like it did for Semelweiss in Vienna, even though again, this was still before germ theory.
• 40:10
  This was, you know, a decade or two before Louis Pasteur's germ theory came out.
• 40:15
  They both implemented the scientific process.
• 40:18
  Observe, implement documents.
• 40:20
  But Nightingale was celebrated.
• 40:23
  There were some men that were resentful that you know, this meddling woman had such influence, but overall she was a national hero in Brit Britain, and she was basically the equivalent of an influencer at the time, supported by Queen Victoria herself.
• 40:38
  So we have to ask, why was there such a difference in how she was received versus how SEMIWESS was received?
• 40:46
  Do either of you have any predictions?
• 40:48
  I would imagine, I mean, nurses always get the brawn of everything.
• 40:51
  I don't know.
• 40:52
  I would feel like, you know, um, I mean, we're always saying that she was more well received overall.
• 40:57
  She was more well received.
• 41:00
  Her career flourished, she was still accepted in polite society, whereas as Ashley said, Dr.
• 41:05
  Semmelweiss, he ended up being forced out of the hospital.
• 41:09
  He ended up being mocked and ridiculed.
• 41:12
  He had to take different jobs.
• 41:13
  Sometimes he had to work for free.
• 41:15
  He had an incredible career.
• 41:17
  After he was forced out in Vienna, he went to work in several other hospitals where he did the exact same thing.
• 41:23
  He implemented these hand hygiene protocols, published the data, and then ended up stepping on so many toes that he got fired.
• 41:30
  And what seems to be the biggest difference between him and Florence Nightingale is he was a raging jerk.
• 41:38
  And Florence Nightingale was actually very politically savvy.
• 41:43
  Florence has been described as an artful manipulator.
• 41:47
  She was empathic and compassionate.
• 41:49
  She had a very high emotional IQ.
• 41:51
  And even though she could be domineering, she was also very strategic.
• 41:56
  She was a visionary.
• 41:57
  She cultivated connections to people.
• 42:00
  She was a prolific and eloquent writer, and she was seen as a hero back then.
• 42:05
  And now Semmelweiss, on the other hand, he would call his colleagues murderers.
• 42:11
  He thought that the evidence spoke for itself, and we don't need to put kids' gloves on to talk about these things.
• 42:18
  We're doctors.
• 42:19
  The evidence speaks for itself.
• 42:21
  He said you all need to start implementing these hand hygiene protocols.
• 42:24
  If you don't, you're murderers.
• 42:26
  And his colleagues did not react to that even when the evidence was right there in front of their face, not just in the data he was publishing, but you could go to these wards.
• 42:36
  The people working there, not just him, saw these incredible turnarounds in outcome for their patients.
• 42:42
  But man, they did not like his attitude.
• 42:44
  They did not like the way that he approached institutional change.
• 42:49
  Does this sound familiar to any sort of modern day things going on with the medical establishment?
• 42:57
  Ashley, I see you nodding.
• 42:58
  Let's hear some thoughts.
• 42:59
  Well, first of all, I mean, if I were to have postulated, I would have said this is all psychology, right?
• 43:05
  Florence Nightingale was very affluent.
• 43:08
  She was in, you know, quote, polite society.
• 43:11
  Her family was wealthy.
• 43:13
  She had all this training and background, and so she could kind of throw her weight around.
• 43:17
  But you take doctors, you tell them that they're murderers, as we find out.
• 43:23
  You insult their intelligence, you insult their their practice.
• 43:27
  That creates a whole lot of moral injury and ego, probably more ego harm.
• 43:32
  And so of course they're gonna resist.
• 43:34
  Of course they're gonna pull back.
• 43:35
  That creates cognitive dissonance, which is exactly what we see with all of these frauds, whether it's vaccines, whether it's antidepressants, whether it's VIOX or you know, Xantac.
• 43:47
  I mean, pick your poison, right?
• 43:49
  Literally, pick your poison.
• 43:50
  Whether it's corpse germs or modern day issues, you're just creating that cognitive dissonance because they can't accept that they could possibly get something wrong and kill somebody.
• 44:00
  That's why I'm so happy to have this discussion with you.
• 44:02
  Ashley, your background talking about moral injury or moral injury course, you're you recognize these themes and patterns.
• 44:10
  And to me, it is just absolutely wild that we can go back 200 years and we see the exact same things happening with the medical establishment then and the medical establishment now.
• 44:22
  What happened to Dr.
• 44:23
  Semmelweiss eventually is is this story does not end well for him.
• 44:28
  He went to all these different hospitals around Europe, turned things around, but was constantly stepping on people's toes.
• 44:35
  And when he was 47 years old, a group of his colleagues and his wife lured him back to Vienna under the guise of inspecting a new facility.
• 44:46
  They were actually luring him to have him involuntarily committed to an insane asylum.
• 44:52
  And when he realized what was happening, the guards jumped out, he was beaten, and he received a wound in his hand during that beating that turned septic, and he was dead within two weeks.
• 45:05
  He was never vindicated while he was alive, but now we can kind of look back and go, huh, he actually saved a lot of lives and his data was legit, and all these people who opposed him during his career, they were all wrong.
• 45:19
  They were all doing massive amounts of harm to their patients.
• 45:22
  The entire medical establishment was doing massive harm.
• 45:27
  But when topics like that are approached in a way that threatens people's egos, that cognitive dissonance kicks in, people get defensive, and the data doesn't matter.
• 45:38
  The evidence doesn't matter.
• 45:40
  Nicole, I see you nodding your head.
• 45:42
  What are your thoughts at this point?
• 45:47
  And different things that happened during the pandemic and just you know, things not aligning despite what science is showing, you know, and and new upcoming things and challenging it and and not wanting to to acknowledge that it does exist.
• 46:01
  And what a sad way to go.
• 46:03
  Like, literally, you're the person who is saving lives based on hand washing and it being a hand wound.
• 46:11
  Yeah, a hand wound that gets septic.
• 46:13
  Yeah, it is that's some weird juju.
• 46:17
  But you know, I mean, again, knowing that he was vindicated after the fact, I mean, is definitely, you know, it's just one of those things that I don't know.
• 46:24
  It it's it's just really unfortunate, but like Ashley said, with the moral injury and all of the things that come with those individuals that were not able to accept what he was trying to bring forward and trying to work with and try to work, you know, better into the system of health care and everything else, the obstetrics and different things.
• 46:44
  It's just really sad.
• 46:45
  And but exactly what we see today, 200 years later.
• 46:48
  I mean, we're still seeing this stuff in healthcare and and all the things that go along with it.
• 46:52
  We are.
• 46:53
  So can I ask the year on that again?
• 46:55
  Do you have that handy?
• 46:56
  Or even when he started his research.
• 46:59
  See.
• 46:59
  He got his doctorate in 1844.
• 47:02
  So what's interesting is Vanderbilt started making donations to schools of medicines in 1884.
• 47:10
  Just very interesting.
• 47:11
  Not sure if some of that political stuff was at play a little bit earlier or not.
• 47:16
  We should do an episode on the Vanderbilt sometime.
• 47:19
  I think that would be an interesting one.
• 47:22
  Looking at what happened to him, you know, my background is as a psych nurse, and and I see all sorts of examples, both from modern psychiatry, things happening today in 2026 and things that happened fairly recently, things like lobotomies are one example.
• 47:38
  And I think ECT is another example, even though it's still done today.
• 47:42
  And antidepressants.
• 47:43
  This is a huge one.
• 47:45
  This is a huge one.
• 47:46
  We have done deep dives on the evidence base of antidepressants on multiple episodes of the nurses report, and I I think this is a perfect example of the exact same thing going on.
• 47:57
  It's all these prescribers who wrap themselves in cognitive dissonance and can't recognize that what they're doing is actually causing profound amounts of harm.
• 48:07
  Either of you think of any examples from your specialties.
• 48:11
  Well, I know I know I've covered some of those topics with the American Frontline Nurses a couple years ago, and definitely, you know, yeah, Ashley mentioned statins.
• 48:19
  That's a that's a good one.
• 48:21
  I mean, there's a lot of things, even too with like the transplants and and different things that I've had experience in.
• 48:27
  No subject is untouched here.
• 48:29
  It's definitely taboo.
• 48:31
  There's a lot of things that we can pull from all of these, but it just shows you how medicine can get it wrong, right?
• 48:37
  I mean, all these times they're coming up with things that they're saying are safe and effective and you know, are okay to do, and you know, we find out after the fact that they cause so much harm and death, and unfortunately, these people go through this with the vaccine injured and the vaccines, like we just see every all of this, right?
• 48:53
  All of this plays a role.
• 48:54
  So it's interesting to see how probably everything we could bring up would have some sort of problem or poor outcome, um, depending on the patient population.
• 49:02
  Yeah, I think vaccines are the ultimate example of this, the childhood vaccines, and then as kind of a separate category, the COVID vaccines.
• 49:11
  I think people are coming around a little bit faster about the COVID vaccines in terms of people within the medical establishment recognizing that there's a problem here, but childhood vaccines, like I feel like we're still in, you know, the early years of hand hygiene where we almost have to wait for an entire generation of doctors to retire before we might see some change on this because people at the top of these establishments, boy, it's it's just if history is any predictor, it's not gonna happen in their lifetime.
• 49:45
  You know, it it's absolutely wild because we've come so far.
• 49:48
  I mean, I don't even consider myself one of the like OG anti vaxxers, you know.
• 49:53
  There was a whole generation before me.
• 49:55
  I mean, this started back the year I was born, well, before I was born.
• 50:00
  1984, 1986.
• 50:02
  That was those were huge years for some of these changes that would happen.
• 50:05
  But if we look at medicine as a whole, just the application of of health care in general.
• 50:10
  The way that we constantly push people to their limits, trying to keep them alive.
• 50:15
  To what end.
• 50:16
  There's so much of this.
• 50:17
  And you know, I had a family member who was in the hospital about two years ago, almost exactly now.
• 50:24
  And they sliced and dice this person to death.
• 50:28
  And I advocated and advocated.
• 50:30
  And the family, part of the family was unprepared to lose this member.
• 50:35
  And the doctors kept on saying, Well, we can do another surgery, this, that, and the other.
• 50:40
  And it was horrific.
• 50:41
  And this is another thing that I see as a huge issue is we apply health care in some of the worst ways that brings about more human suffering because we let our egos get in the way of I have to save this patient, or I need to give them, you know, even if I can give them another six weeks, even if they're puking their guts up the whole time and and not able to have any quality of life.
• 51:04
  That's what's important.
• 51:05
  And so that's a real struggle for me.
• 51:07
  And I don't even know how we get to a point where ethics can be applied.
• 51:11
  Yeah, we prioritize quantity over quality, and yet both are going down.
• 51:17
  We're supposed to be seeing progress.
• 51:19
  We're supposed to be seeing science do its thing, and we're supposed to be seeing evidence that helps us guide our practice, and yet our outcomes clearly reflect that something is drastically wrong with what we're seeing.
• 51:32
  I want to give another recent example, and that is with childhood food allergies.
• 51:37
  Back in 2020, the American Academy of Pediatrics decided that, you know, you need to protect your children from being exposed to any of these foods that might cause them these drastic life-threatening food allergies.
• 51:51
  They didn't do that based off of a big pile of evidence.
• 51:54
  They based it off of a hunch.
• 51:56
  And it was clear that they were completely wrong because after they implemented these guidelines and recommendations, we saw childhood food allergies spike dramatically by the tens of thousands of children.
• 52:10
  And it still took about two decades for those guidelines to get changed.
• 52:16
  Those guidelines probably caused hundreds of deaths that could have been avoided if they weren't telling parents to shield their children from things like peanuts and bananas and all the things.
• 52:28
  It it was always a policy that wasn't based on evidence.
• 52:32
  And then when the evidence came in that showed that that policy was stupid and causing harm, they still kept on going with it for so long.
• 52:41
  If we had another hour, we could probably dive into example after example after example, going back two hundred years, looking at looking at different times where this has happened.
• 52:54
  It's happening right now with the American Academy of Pediatrics because they are still recommending that confused teenagers go under the scalpel and endure life-changing hormones, sterilizing hormones if they're confused about their gender identity.
• 53:09
  That is despite the fact that there has never been an evidence base that that leads to good outcomes for those children.
• 53:17
  And how long is it gonna be?
• 53:19
  And the people who are participating in that, the people who are participating in things like gender affirming care for children, obviously the evidence doesn't matter because the evidence is already in, and it's very disheartening because it is going to be a long, long wait to get these people out of these positions of power, the people who are still promoting things like gender affirming care, the people who still have the blinders on regarding childhood vaccines.
• 53:47
  It's very disheartening, and it speaks to how incredibly important it is that we reach our young medical professionals and our aspiring medical professionals, and we plant these seeds using things like social media, using things like podcasts, and we have to recapture the systems that are educating them.
• 54:08
  And we have to recapture the journals who publish the articles that are full of magic math and all that nonsense.
• 54:14
  It's so tough, and I always say this, and everybody's probably sick of it, but I don't care because you need to hear it, and I'm all about tough love.
• 54:22
  Maybe I'm less like Florence and more like whatever the doctor.
• 54:26
  Dr.
• 54:26
  Semmel was, yeah.
• 54:27
  Dr.
• 54:27
  Similvice, I'm more Austrian.
• 54:29
  You have to use your voice.
• 54:30
  It's like Dave said, you know, we do these podcasts, we have thousands upon thousands of listeners who hear our voices, but it's not enough.
• 54:38
  We have to continue to get the information out there.
• 54:42
  You have to share it, and you also have to stand up and say enough is enough.
• 54:47
  There have been so many times in life where I could have just sat down and shut up had I done that, I would not be here.
• 54:54
  I am just another person, just another human being.
• 54:57
  You and I are no different.
• 54:59
  The only thing that separates us currently, if you're not out there making a difference, is I don't shut my mouth.
• 55:05
  And I'm not afraid to, you know, be looked down upon, and that's what it takes.
• 55:09
  You may have different ways.
• 55:10
  Hopefully, you're more like David than you are like me, maybe a little bit nicer and able to be a little bit more like Flo rather than the Austrian dude.
• 55:18
  Why can't I remember his name?
• 55:20
  But you have to use your voice.
• 55:21
  You have to go out there and share the information.
• 55:23
  Plant the seeds.
• 55:24
  Your job is not to convince or be the expert.
• 55:28
  Your job is to plant the seeds and to give information, and then if they want a little bit more, you give them a little bit more.
• 55:35
  But that's how we change these things because these systems are deep-rooted.
• 55:40
  But once people hear the truth and they start thinking for themselves, it's a cascade of change.
• 55:46
  So go out there and be that change.
• 55:48
  Nicole, you have time for a quick comment.
• 55:50
  I mean, just to echo off that, you know, we can't break out of the echo chamber.
• 55:54
  People don't share and are willing to hear the stories that we talk about and cover these topics, but also be willing to put themselves out there and take accountability and ownership for their health, right?
• 56:04
  Because we are responsible for that and educating ourselves and knowing where good resources are.
• 56:09
  So, you know, again, it's it takes a collective, it takes all of us.
• 56:13
  It can't just be a handful of us to keep showing up.
• 56:15
  And so I just think it's really important and I'm very grateful that we have this platform that we can try to get people to think and question and want to learn more or challenge what we're saying and be able to kind of take charge and accountability.
• 56:28
  So I hope people will take that information and do that.
• 56:32
  That is all the time we have for today on the nurses report.
• 56:35
  We will continue to hold the line in our hospitals, and we're counting on you to hold the line in your neck of the woods.
• 56:41
  Until next time, this is Ben Nurses David Wayne, Nicole, and Ashley.