Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.269 'Neurodivergence in Healthcare - Part 2 of 4: Hypermobility'

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Ep.269 'Neurodivergence in Healthcare - Part 2 of 4: Hypermobility' · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
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We're live. Hey people, how are you doing? Welcome to the newly named STA Clinician
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Podcast, formerly known for the last five years as the Sports Therapy Association
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Podcast. For every week for the last five years we've been broadcasting.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creative onchecklive.com. And as always,
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this episode is billed live on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel
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and Facebook page on a Tuesday night at eight o'clock.
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So you join us in part two of our Neurodivergence in Healthcare series,
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January 2026, with the goal of providing valuable information to help soft tissue
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therapists work closer and more effectively with neurodivergent patients or clients,
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and also provide suggestions for neurodivergent therapists on how to monitor
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and care for your own good selves.
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Last week in part one, on the screen now if you've joined us on YouTube or Facebook,
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the focus was on communication.
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And I was joined by special guests, Rosie Sexton of Alton Health and Performance,
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Cassandra Clemens, founder of Hear Your Confidence, and Benjamin Mace Crossley
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of Repose Injury Rehab, who together gave us a fantastic insight into the vital
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role communication can play when working with a neurodivergent patient or client,
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including descriptions of pain and symptoms that may not fit into the narrative
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that clinicians expect,
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or indeed were even taught to expect.
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So together, the panel discussed how others can lead to diagnostic overshadowing
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in which proper assessment and diagnosis is missed because the clinician has
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not read the situation correctly and has made erroneous assumptions that can
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all too often result in the non-identification of serious injury and disease.
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A fantastic part one, a real eye-opener.
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Available, as always, on all popular podcast platforms and on YouTube,
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that's episode 268 of the STA Clinician Podcast.
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Tonight, in part two, the focus is going to be on the link between neurodivergence
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and hypermobility, with modern research suggesting that individuals with neurodevelopmental
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conditions such as autism, ADHD,
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and Tourette's have a significantly higher prevalence of joint hypermobility
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compared to the general population.
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Flipping the coin over as it were, studies also show that individuals with Ehlers-Danlos
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Syndrome, EDS, had up to a seven-fold higher risk of autism.
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So to discuss this very shortly, I'm given by special guest Bonnie Southgate,
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founder of Movement Anatomy Essentials.co.uk and MSK advisor at SEDS Connective.
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Also Jessica Yannerman, advanced clinical massage therapist at Ease Therapies,
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and Rosie Sexton, Osteopath at Alton Health and Performance returns from part one.
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As always if you are joining us for the live recording do please feel free to
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ask questions and show experiences in the comments.
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Do bear in mind as I said last week that these episodes are recorded and then
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they're made available on the public domain so if you are sharing something
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sensitive maybe think twice before you post it because it will go into YouTube
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and Facebook and all popular podcast platforms with currently about 2,000 downloads a month.
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If you do want to send an anonymous question and we'll mention later on that
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there is a QR code you might have seen, which we will highlight later on,
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which you can use to go through to Slido and ask an anonymous question if that's
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going to be better for you.
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Right. Just a hi to people who have joined us live. If you do join us live and
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you share a comment, then I can bring that up on the screen.
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I'll give you a little demo now if you're joining us live and you.
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I don't have to check any of these. These are all very highly reputable people in here.
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Nikki Mansfield. Hey, Nikki, how you doing? As says, evening,
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Bendy Spice Girls and Matt, my peeps. Thanks for that inclusivity there.
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Thank you. Thanks to everybody who joined us live. I love doing it live.
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I love the people who download it as well. It's really cool.
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But live is really why I do it. I love the spontaneity.
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Let's bring up three spontaneity people as we delve into part two of our focus
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on neurodivergence in healthcare, hypermobility. Let's bring them up now.
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Adjective for Spontaneity. Spontaneous people, how are you? Welcome to you all.
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So that listeners can, again, identify your voices a bit like last week,
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let's get straight into it.
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Let's go around the circle and if you can, a brief summary of who you are,
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maybe where you are in the country and what you do. Should we start with Bonnie? Bonnie Southgate?
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Sure. Hi, I'm Bonnie. I live in Dorset, so down south.
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And I basically was a ballerina, a very hypermobile one, which is why I have such an interest.
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I then was a bodies teacher, sports therapist, trained with Mike Grice,
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which everybody knows and loves so well.
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And then I did an MSC, which I finished a couple of years ago,
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a year and a half ago, in dance science, looking at hypermobility, strangely.
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But I'm also, most importantly for tonight, I am the MSK advisor,
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one of them, for SEDS Connective, which is really the only Neurodivergent Hypermobility
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Cherry, that charity that I know of.
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And it's a really great resource for people watching this tonight.
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Fantastic. Thanks, Bonnie. And yes, a big shout out to CES Connective and thanks
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for sharing our posts. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Bonnie.
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Round the circle in no particular order to Jessica Yannerman with a Yerp but
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spelt with a jerk. Exactly.
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I'm Jess. I live in Birmingham where I work as a massage therapist,
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I originally trained as an actor and then had a swerve into massage therapy,
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which kind of coincided with various health problems for my daughter primarily, and then myself.
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And these things led to a diagnosis of hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.
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And then consequently, I suppose, that's the way that my work has taken me.
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And so really on the whole, I treat hypermobile individuals,
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whether they know it or not, and from a kind of neurodiverse,
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divergent perspective, family full of it, of all types.
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OCD, dyslexia, ADHD, autism, some diagnosed, some not.
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Even my daughter has quite recently had an ADHD diagnosis and I think actually
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the combination of her receiving that diagnosis,
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and being asked to come on the podcast has really made me think about my practice
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and the people that I treat and really how I respond to them as individuals
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and how perhaps I need to change some things.
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That's great, really cool and I remember now, now you mentioned it,
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you were on the podcast before and I think even you were taken aback by kind
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of some of the responses you got,
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the people who are getting in touch with you and thanking you for sharing your stories,
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it was quite emotional wasn't it it was it
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was I was really surprised and still now
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actually people get in touch I had a couple of people at the
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therapy expo come up to me and I
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just think it started a conversation you know Bonnie started the conversation
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my episode reflected on that and it's got people thinking and moreover it's
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hopefully and hopefully tonight we'll do the same thing we'll make people realize
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they have a really important role to play,
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That's great. Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here. We'll delve more into that later on.
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Someone else who's full of it, Rosie Sexton. You've come back from part one.
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I love the way you said full of it. I think that's a t-shirt wait to be made there.
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But yeah, Rosie Sexton, thanks for coming back. How are you?
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Hey, so yeah, it's good to be invited back. I didn't get kicked off after last
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week. That must be a good thing.
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So I am, I'm Rosie Sexton. I'm an osteopath.
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I'm just down the road from Jessica. I'm in Solihull and I, autistic ADHD,
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fairly recently diagnosed within the last few years, although obviously it's always been there.
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I am mostly not like mobile, although my hands are a little bit.
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But I do treat, a lot of the time when you get a diagnosis, you tend to realize that actually,
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I seem to have been attracting a lot of neurodivergent people without really
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thinking about it or trying to, you tend to just find yourself hanging out with people.
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And that's been something that I've really noticed in my practice is that I
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seem to just attract neurodivergent people.
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I don't know why they seem to find me one way or another.
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And as such obviously
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a lot of those people do have some form
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of hypermobility so that is something i do
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see relatively frequently something that
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i find that's interesting maybe we can get into this in in the podcast because
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i'd love to get bonnie and jessica's thoughts about this as well is that i see
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quite a few people who may not meet criteria for hypermobility but definitely
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have some features of it, at least in some parts of their body.
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And again, you know, they might not have a particularly high baton score or
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as we're looking at, but when you look at their tissues or where you feel their
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tissues, there's definitely something there.
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And that's something that's worth bearing in mind, whether or not they have
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a diagnosis or even whether or not they would get a diagnosis.
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And I think in a way that sort of parallels my thoughts on neurodivergence as
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well, which is that we like to draw cut lines between either you have it or you don't.
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Whereas actually, I think reality is messy and you end up with lots of people
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who are somewhere on the borderline there.
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And actually maybe learning more about working with hypermobile people actually
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helps you with a whole range of people who may or may not.
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Be fully hyper-popped. Anyway, I'm rambling.
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I'm going to stop. Not at all. You've just either consciously or subconsciously
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once again done a great segue.
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You did last week with a, maybe we'll touch on this later on.
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I think we should go there straight away.
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I think first of all, maybe one of the best things to do, and Bonnie's nodding
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away, as you can read my mind, is let's define hyper-mobility because putting
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the newer divergence to one side at the moment,
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hyper-mobility is used in all sorts of contexts, sometimes erroneously and sometimes
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a lot of misinformation.
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So Bonnie, would you like to start with what are we talking about when we say hypermobility?
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Yes, I will. And I will directly answer Rosie as well on why she might be finding things difficult.
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So I think there is misconceptions a little bit about hypermobility and people
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think only joints and they think flexibility, which is not necessarily the same thing.
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And I think when we're talking about our neurodivergence and the link to that,
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we're talking about symptomatic hypermobility and we're thinking connective tissue.
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There is, in 2016, they did a criteria for HEDS, which is what you will have
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been looking at for your criteria, the Baten criteria, and the assessments for that.
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But they also at the same time created the HSD diagnosis, which is the hypermobility
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spectrum disorder, because they did realize that there was an enormous group
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of people that didn't fit into the EDS criteria,
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but who were also really debilitated and had as many problems.
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And they categorize it, and it can be sort of like peripheral joint hypermobility,
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historical, you can just have it in one or two joints.
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So when you're seeing your.
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Clients or patients, you still need to take them seriously if they're struggling
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with the kind of the holistic picture of maybe more of a connective tissue.
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Maybe the skin feels different. Maybe they've got some of the other symptoms.
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And I think this does combine with the neurodegenerative and again,
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they've made it a spectrum, but I think they're trying to get away from that
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in a way because I think it's a really like big mixed bag.
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And I am just going to give the one statistic out that Jessica Eccles did a
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bit of research and she was the only one who combined ADHD and autism and Tourette's,
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which is what she diagnoses.
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And it was 51% of neurodivergent adults were seen to have hypermobility,
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where in the general population it's 20%, which is still a quite high,
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number. I know that they're going to come out with a new criteria in 2026,
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a consortium for ibermobility, and it's going to blow everything out the water that's there now.
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It's going to change everything because there's been tons of work done.
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So I think they will, from what I've heard, and I could be wrong because I'm
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not on any boards or anything like that, but through the grapevine,
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I hear that they will maybe be combining all of it because they realize actually that that original,
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that 2016 criteria for heads was more for them to do research to try and find a genetic cause.
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So they narrowed it down. But when they did that, they left a lot of people
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out and a lot of people who didn't get the right kind of care.
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And I think that with the neurodivergence, they do take HSD into account.
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So it's not just the main criteria.
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You have to fit that generalized joint hypermobility So I hope that answers your question, Rosie.
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Yeah, thanks. That's really helpful. And again, that very much fits with my experience.
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As I say, I'm aware that obviously the criteria for these things change all the time.
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And that's something that I'm maybe less familiar with the cutting edge research
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and what's going on at the moment.
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But yeah, no, that sounds like things are definitely moving in a helpful direction.
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Jessica when we were talking about a little bit of about this off air you've
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you've and you kind of alluded to in your introduction you've been through
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the mill for yourself and your daughter and and you're not a massive fan of
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these classifications either because they kind of keep changing the goalposts
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and it's like as well as not being very helpful it can be quite traumatic can't
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you when you're labeled this and then suddenly it's not that it really doesn't
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give you much confidence does it no and it's and it's confusing it's massively
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confusing and i think you You know,
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the fact that these sympathetic hypermobility conditions are multisystemic.
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Mean that that coupled with this thing about neurodivergence gets completely confused.
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So I was saying earlier that my daughter really initially when she was about
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six, they were thinking about dyspraxia, dyslexia, dyscalculia.
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And that kind of went by the wayside because she had a series of accidents,
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which really on reflection were proprioceptive things,
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falling over things crashing into things but then
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bounced her in and out of hospital then it
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looked like a bone disease then it became a kind of anxiety picture was she
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manifesting this then that kind of segued into maybe adhd might be tourette's
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then it went into hypermobile spectrum disorder and eventually we arrived at
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hypermobile ayla's danloss and then now we're back around at adhd so So,
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you know, I was talking to her before the podcast actually about how important
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the diagnoses are to her and to her personally, they are really important.
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And to me as a parent, I am more concerned with how she lives a life and how she manages herself.
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And, you know, it's, of course, it's an entirely personal thing,
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the thing about diagnoses.
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But we, you know, we are aware that the criteria are about to change for hypermobile people.
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And that will cause all manner of different upset, confusion.
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And you're right back at those feelings of not being believed.
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The gaslighting, the, you know, because the reality is that even with these
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diagnoses, you don't necessarily receive the care that you think you're going to receive.
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So, you know, the shifting is important. Of course, it's important that we're always moving forward.
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But as a clinician, it then becomes about being creative and working with the
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person in front of you and listening to them as an individual and their individual
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needs than a kind of textbook,
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well, this is this condition, this is how we treat it.
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I mean, nobody's like that, obviously, but particularly this community needs
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that individualised care.
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That's good to hear i think we touched on this last week but
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absolutely everything we're doing here is it's
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just giving more and more reason to be individual all
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we're saying is don't judge a boot by its cover and hey guess
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what that's going to be better for the person in front of you so whether
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we're focusing on neurodivergence or we're focusing on hypermobility or
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even just an ankle sprain or anything it is whatever it
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is or bad back it's just don't go to the textbook and
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label them with something it's talked to them and listened to them and walk with them
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all these sort of things so yeah like we said last week by by
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informing yourself about what we're talking about tonight you'll become a better
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clinician with everybody you know um probably i
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think that point about being believed is such an important thing
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because as and this is especially true
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when we talk about that cohort of people who have some
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underlying high mobility they might have some chronic pain and
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they may have a whole range of others that
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go alongside it and i think that group of people um historically they very often
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get labeled as you know being a bit anxious a bit and it's that whole response
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that people tend to get you know whether it's said out loud or not that sense
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of this is all in your head.
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And I hate that. I mean, what I always say to people about pain is,
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well, yes, pain is all in your head because that's where pain lives.
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In a sense, that's true. But if you stick your hand in a pan of boiling water,
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that pain is all in your head as well.
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But it doesn't mean that you can make it go away by thinking more positively
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about it. And nor should you.
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Because that pain is there for a reason. It's there to communicate something.
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And i think for a lot of these people
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if they've spent so much of their life being
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told that that pain is in their head it has
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a real effect on on you know i've had patients
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who come in and they're forever apologizing because
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they feel like they're being awkward or they're being
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difficult or they're and it's like you don't
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have to apologize for for listening to your body you don't have to apologize
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for whatever's going on this is but i think sometimes being given that validation
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of having a diagnosis and saying actually there is something here you're not
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making this up and i mean obviously again from my point of view that should
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go without saying because.
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It's you know it's almost unheard of in my experience for people to to actually
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make things up i think that's that's a misconception it doesn't happen nearly
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as often as some clinicians think it does i think there's almost always something
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there and it's about whether we've understood that or not.
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I think that's, yeah, key. I think the diagnosis is key.
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And unfortunately, I mean, Jessica, I feel your pain when things are changing.
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And I think hypermobility in general, particularly what's now known as hypermobile
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Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, has gone historically through so many different names.
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And if you start looking at literature, it becomes horrifically confusing as
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well to like piece it together.
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I think the reason they're trying to change it is for the reason that people
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don't get diagnosed and they're being lost and not getting the care that they need.
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I think that, as well, the linking now between the hypermobility of the physical
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and the brain is so key because I think they've siloed the two separately.
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And actually when you look at the two conditions and
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you look at like the overlaps and the things that
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they share they have the dysautonomia the
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perceptive issues the sensory issues the
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the sort of tons of
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different like things that link them together they
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both i know studies looked at brain scanning jessica
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eccles and they showed changes in the amygdala
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and changes in the insula in both
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and they did show also that the amount
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of hypermobility linked to the changes
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so the greater the hypermobility was the greater the brain
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changes were but these were the same things that are showing up in
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your neurodivergent like scans of brain so we know that there's some biological
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link we don't think one causes the other but that it might be in like development
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meant in utero or something because it's the extracellular matrix and the connective tissue.
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And it's kind of like someone, and I don't know who it is, but there was someone
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looking at all the sort of different genes and all these different things that could be expressed.
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And I think you get this like big, huge mixed bag.
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I think that getting one diagnosis, kind of like you said, Jessica and I have
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so many clients that maybe get the autism diagnosis and then they might get like.
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You know, some other diagnosis, psychiatric diagnosis with it.
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And then they go in with all kinds of physical issues, pain,
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and they are, it's all deemed anxiety or it's all deemed because they're divergent,
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but like the dysautonomia, the parts,
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the racy heart, this is physical problems that will cause you anxiety.
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It will put your brain into fight or flight.
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So they get completely gaslit again and sent away without the care they need.
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I've had people come back and they have major dislocations that have been missed
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because they don't look at their bodies.
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And we talked about the difficulties in communication and they don't get listened to either.
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They're trying to communicate, but actually the listening skills,
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when you're not thinking hypermobility and you're only thinking brain, you miss a whole lot.
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And the same goes for the hypermobiles who then go in and may be really struggling
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because they do have other difficulties.
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Everything is about the hypermobility and then they don't get the other diagnosis.
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So I do think it's really important. I think it's really, I think it's a great,
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Matt, that you put this together, this whole series, because I think when we
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look now at hypermobility, we have to look at neurodivergence.
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When we look at neurodivergence, we have to look at hypermobility.
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The research now is so definitively correlated and so much higher than in the
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general population, it can't really be ignored.
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So, yeah, I think it's really important. I think that's a really important point.
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Sorry, just to, just to the case, because I know if listeners are like me and
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you start Googling things, then, and especially now with kind of ChatGPT and
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Co-Pilot, it does highlight in black caveats, you know, correlation rather than causation.
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And this hasn't been found in this population and blah, blah,
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this and in clinical practice.
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But just because it's so little of what we do is actually 100%,
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you know, blessed by evidence and empirical research and everything.
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But it doesn't mean we don't alter our clinical practice, is it?
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When the scales start tipping past a certain way, fine, we just start doing
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things differently in clinic.
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So yeah, if you are looking this up, you will see caveats and you will see,
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depending on who you're reading, kind of doubts put into your mind. Yeah.
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It is enough for us to be definitely acting differently and clear.
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That's the take home I want you guys to get from this. Sorry,
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Rosie, I interrupted you.
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I was just going to pick up on something that Bonnie said, actually.
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I think you mentioned people are getting all these dislocations who are not
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necessarily being taken seriously.
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And I think I've spoken to a couple of people recently
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in Hypermobile and they've
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had the experience of because when they
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go to to A&E with a
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hypermobile dislocation they're so used
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to men it's not really understanding what's going on or dismissing
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what they've said and going oh no that couldn't happen and they
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found it or they end up being given advice that it
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doesn't really work for them because it doesn't take into
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account their hypermobility and then if
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you add on top of that the difficulty they might have with the
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environment because of their neurodivergence or something like
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that it mal-experienced so traumatic and
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i i use that word in this absolute literal sense
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that very often
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some of these people the person
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asked yeah i just i know i should go to i and
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e but i don't because i can't face it so these
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people are left without really any proper medical
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care for somebody's condition because as I
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said the only option that's open to them really is something
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that they find incredibly traumatic and I think it's such a problematic situation
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yeah it is and like you say the anxiety that gets blamed all the time and it
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is like being in the boiling water and they're missing it they're not taking
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their heads out of the boiling water.
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They're just, you know, I had one client and he was given all sorts of things
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to listen to at night and breathing exercises, but he was physically,
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you know, in a bad ass and they completely missed it.
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Yeah, I mean, I can tell you countless stories of my daughter's thumbs dissipate a lot.
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And, you know, them being reduced, put in a cast, Evie will say, well, it's not in joint.
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It's not in joint. No, it must be in joint. No, it's not in joint.
26:20
Well, we've cast it. It's in joint. No, it's not in joint.
26:22
Then eventually we go to X-Ray. Of course it's not in joint because it's spasmed
26:26
and come out while they were casting it.
26:29
But they don't believe her because why would she know her body?
26:33
You know, and it's, I could go on and on and on and on. And there are wonderful,
26:38
wonderful people out there.
26:39
But in fact, last week we were in hospital. We weren't in A&E.
26:44
We were in hospital for a planned appointment.
26:46
But they, and it's really made me start to think about my practice actually,
26:50
because they asked her for a history.
26:52
And then there's a throwaway question that
26:57
was about neurodivergence or mental health
27:00
something and Evie said because her diagnosis is new quite
27:04
happily I've got an ADHD diagnosis and they wrote it down and carried on and
27:08
that was just part of their intake and I thought you know if you'd have asked
27:12
that at the beginning of this whole process maybe the communication might have
27:18
been different And so then it started to make me think about my practice.
27:24
And we were talking before we came on air about our intake forms and all our tick boxes.
27:28
And particularly in things that are systemic, like hypermobility.
27:33
And, you know, you're trying desperately to cover all the systems of the body.
27:37
Because on the whole, people forget to tell you things, right?
27:40
Because it's just them and their lives.
27:42
And my question about neurodivergence is always at the bottom.
27:46
And I thought, no, just need to flip that to the top.
27:50
Because actually, the end of a sudden, and it might, you know,
27:54
it might not change anything.
27:56
But my hope is that it shows that I'm thinking about how we communicate,
28:03
what might be important in the environment.
28:06
And actually then asking not just about ADHD or autism, but is there a dyslexia,
28:15
dyscalculia, an OCD, you know, something. Yeah.
28:18
And I did it. I'm telling you this because I'm pleased because I think it might be helpful.
28:23
I did it last week and a woman who was a new EDS client with multiple neurodivergent
28:29
diagnoses said, the thing I need you to do, and this would never occur to me.
28:35
The thing I need you to do is when I get changed, stay in the room because it
28:40
really panics me if somebody leaves the room and I don't know when they're coming back.
28:44
So if you could turn around and stay in the room and I said well that's absolutely fine.
28:49
Never ever occurred no I've always well there's things we can do about lights sounds bedding,
28:55
never would have occurred to me but it was really because of that hospital environment
28:59
that I started to think hang on a minute where does this question come and why
29:04
are we asking what is the point in asking the question if you just write it
29:07
down and carry on very powerful yeah yeah sure it's going to hit out with a lot of listeners yeah.
29:15
I brought it hard past. I'm going to read out a few of the comments.
29:18
Thanks, people are leaving comments.
29:19
And then I want to kind of try and devote the next half to what we do with this,
29:25
particularly soft tissue therapists, because, you know, we've got a lot of power,
29:29
how we can run our clinics and like you say, the questions we can ask and stuff.
29:32
So I want to kind of dip into that, but also how we can be more useful in terms
29:36
of noticing red flags and referring on.
29:39
I think that's a really important part we play, especially if we're in the private business.
29:42
We get a lovely hour with these people. They trust us. the communication can
29:46
be fantastic with the empathy most of us have actually got because we're doing
29:49
this for a job so i want to i'm going to leave you with that to have a little
29:52
think about while i read out some of the comments but yeah practical tips on
29:55
like you've just said jess of putting that can i say jess i don't know why i
29:59
call you jess then people call you jess yeah.
30:01
Nobody calls me jessica really would be
30:04
on the show for half an hour i'll call you jess then it'll be jay but yeah
30:07
but um but yeah i think that's just a great example of
30:10
just a clinical called gold where put that question at the top because you
30:13
know what for the first few consultations it's not for the client it's for you just
30:16
to remember you know when you're looking down the sheet oh yeah let's
30:19
establish how they like to communicate first before i do all these questions
30:22
and then realize they've just been watching my mouth move as sarah jones kind
30:26
of said the other day you know that's all they're doing for half an hour while
30:28
you're talking to them so yeah so have a love think of things we can do in clinic
30:31
to help now we know there's this link things we should be doing in the meantime
30:36
whilst you are thinking of that brain boxes i'm just going to read out a few comments here.
30:40
There's a lovely, some sharing here from Nicky Mansfield.
30:43
I'll read and listen to the podcast and it's up on the screen for YouTubers. It's welcome.
30:48
I'll put it large in my eyes. It's welcome and not unexpected.
30:51
News reclassifying heads and HSD is the same.
30:54
I know I have HEDS, but it was dismissed as just HSD, even though my cardiac,
30:59
neuroendocrinic symptoms are now rendering me disabled.
31:03
And then Nikki continues, regarding ASD, the current issue of New Scientist
31:08
introduces four types of autism, moving away from the spectrum thinking.
31:13
Brilliant read. Go buy it before this week's issue replaces it on the shelves.
31:17
I don't think there's any kind of affiliation there from Nicky and New Scientist.
31:20
So that's a great recommendation. Thanks, Nicky. That would be interesting to have a read of.
31:24
Yeah, moving away from spectrum is something that we were talking about,
31:26
and it can only be healthy.
31:28
I also just wanted to say hi as well to, who is it?
31:32
Oh, new to the podcast. Faye Louise. Thank you so much for joining us.
31:34
Lovely to see new people joining us live. Really appreciate it.
31:37
And that's Faye Louise, says new to the podcast. Hi. Thank you for joining us.
31:42
And then we have a ND specialist here, neurodivergent specialist.
31:46
Catherine Parfit says as a ND specialist
31:49
I completely agree that you can't explore ND without considering physical
31:53
indicators and hypermobility and vice versa Sarah
31:57
Clark goes on to say so many people me included avoid vital health care due
32:03
to past invalidation and then the last one I'll bring up here I love these comments
32:07
people it's so useful I get so much feedback from listeners saying it's the
32:10
people leaving their comments which empowers me or helps educate me so.
32:15
Sarah Jones says, I'm convinced my youngest has heads, but she's been dismissed
32:20
so many times, I don't really know where to go now. My eldest is likely to.
32:24
No concerns about her subluxing sternoclavicular joint.
32:28
We've got one more here, which has been in here. We might have some replies
32:31
to these comments, guys, if
32:32
you want to reply to these rather than just ignoring them and moving on.
32:36
Louise Andrews says, I recently had 13 hours in
32:39
A&E having to explain that I have HSD to multiple people and
32:42
strain on me on my pain and also mental health
32:45
okay so a few this very disappointing
32:48
thanks for sharing people who have done that but reflections panel
32:53
on any of those yeah i mean the difficulty in getting a diagnosis right now
32:59
is horrific it was always bad for hypermobility but it used to be rheumatology
33:05
that you were meant to be referred to but rheumatology have not thrown it out.
33:09
They will not diagnose it.
33:11
And so I go to my GP and I said, well, who's diagnosing it? And I'm, we don't know.
33:17
So theoretically, your GP could,
33:21
but there is nobody out there who specifically is meant to take on EDS.
33:28
Like HEDS diagnosis. And then you've got all of the neurodivergent waiting lists
33:33
that are like years along.
33:34
So really in terms of practitioners, we
33:39
need to be thinking anybody who comes into our clinics
33:42
could potentially have either or
33:45
both a combination of all kinds of things and have no diagnosis and actually
33:50
we do become their savior saving grace because we're the people who sit in this
33:54
and believe them and actually work with them you've got the time to go i believe
34:00
one thing i say to all my clients top tip everything you say to me is it's correct,
34:06
Because they have been told time and time again that it's in their head,
34:10
that what they're saying is crazy.
34:11
And I said, I have yet to find a client who's not been right about their own sort of issues.
34:17
They all do. So, yeah, I mean, it's not great at the moment.
34:22
The support groups are probably your best place where they can help advocate for you.
34:28
So the EDS Society and Sense Connective, again, there's toolkits that can be
34:33
used, available, and there's forms that you can take to doctors.
34:38
So you might have to go to several different GPs or different places to get that diagnosis.
34:45
But it's a bit of a fight right now. Yeah.
34:50
One of the things that is maybe not particularly helpful is this perception
34:55
that, I mean, when I've sent people to their GPs in the past,
34:59
the response they've got is, well, there's no treatment for it,
35:02
so why do you need a diagnosis?
35:03
And I think that unfortunately is not as uncommon as it should be.
35:11
We've talked about what the value of a diagnosis is and what that understanding can give somebody.
35:19
I think it's disappointing, I think, that it isn't dedicated to someone.
35:27
I mean, what I will say to people nowadays is that actually we may not be able
35:31
to get you a formal diagnosis.
35:33
But what we can do is by understanding that these are some of the challenges
35:38
that you might face, we can start to unpick some of that and start to look at
35:41
some of the modifications that might be helpful for you.
35:45
And look at, you know, how are we going to work with this?
35:49
And I found that there are things which do or can be helpful for a lot of people.
35:57
It is very individualized.
35:59
And I find that quite a few of my hypermobile patients do benefit a lot from exercise,
36:06
but the kind of exercise and specifically the level and where to start and how
36:12
we approach that has to be very, very individualized and tailored to that person.
36:17
Um i tend to find that hypermobiles do not get
36:20
on at all well with cookie cutter rehab plans for
36:23
example i've had lots of people complain to me about oh you
36:26
know my physio just keeps telling me to do squats and i've tried to tell him
36:28
i can't do that because my knees don't love them but he keeps saying i just
36:33
need to get stronger things like that i think again it's that sort of dismissal
36:38
of that individual's lived experience and even if the only thing you take way
36:43
is just always believe people.
36:45
Somebody tells you that this is their experience having lived with it,
36:48
having what they found from having tried these things in the past. If you take that.
36:55
On board and you work with it and then you try and find it okay well if we can't
36:59
do that what else could we do you know what we do instead that or what might
37:04
be another approach that,
37:05
could work here I think that will immediately
37:09
make you better than a lot of people out there
37:11
at the moment I think you know I think
37:14
obviously completely agree and I think
37:17
there is real power and I think it's
37:20
okay in saying I don't know you know
37:23
I believe you I believe what you're saying I know
37:26
I know some of this stuff I've seen it before in my clinic I
37:29
don't know specifically about this but I know absolutely where
37:33
I can go to find out for you because I think there is so much noise and it is
37:38
so difficult particularly if you know you you know you've got something you
37:42
can't get a diagnosis can you really you know it's hard to know whether you
37:46
can ask for that support can I sit in those forums which of course you can do
37:50
but what you know you cast around don't you?
37:53
Because you're desperately trying to find a solution to something.
37:57
Is so multi-systemic, multi-everything, that actually if you can find somebody
38:05
who will filter some of that out for you, that is huge, I think.
38:12
And so I think as clinicians, it's important that we feel we can go,
38:16
I don't know exactly, but I absolutely will go and find out for you. I will try.
38:20
I might get it wrong, but I will try. I will walk alongside you with this and
38:24
we'll do this together there's a lot of power in that I think that's absolutely right I think,
38:31
Rosie what you said about the exercise and thing is incredibly
38:35
true and I think it is that individualized approach because I
38:38
think with both conditions and like the co-occurrence between the two you do
38:43
get this really like huge different symptoms from person to person where you
38:50
get one you might have ME-CFS diagnosis with dysautonomia, POTS.
38:57
There's new research, 2025, on production of ATP and differences in mitochondrial function.
39:05
If anybody who understands what I'm saying, they might be more prone to dumping
39:10
into the glycolytic system so that they end up with a lot of waste products
39:18
they can't get rid of because they don't have the right...
39:22
All kinds of stuff coming out now so like
39:25
you'll get a lot just that i'm just speaking for
39:28
the listener now so is that linked basically with fatiguing before
39:31
you'd expect and yeah which is a big cancer just to
39:33
look out for isn't it like and it's really interesting because
39:36
even though i was an athlete or a dancer i always remember thinking like i always
39:42
got muscle burn before i could feel like i got tired if that made sense i got
39:47
the heavy muscles and all of that and that would make much more sense if I was
39:51
going into that system much quicker than I was a normal person would.
39:56
So you'll get people, they can't do the heavy stuff that people are asking.
40:02
And the problem is, is you fatigue them and then they dislocate or they get
40:06
inflammation as a result of it.
40:10
And then you also have to think about the dysautonomia and the nervous system,
40:14
which is in fight or flight so there's it's really
40:18
is you have to look at every individual
40:21
and you just listen to them it's a case of every
40:24
week what were you like last week what we did listening to them being really
40:28
specific I'm so detailed I found so many things that that are useful for them
40:36
in terms of exercise but you you just it is all about the listening skills I think.
40:43
Absolutely. And I mean, one of the things, and actually I do this with all of
40:48
my patients, not just neurodivergent or hypermobile patients,
40:52
but I find it particularly useful in those cases because of the wide differences.
40:58
But one thing I will spend a lot of time talking to you about is developing
41:01
our sort of shared understanding of what we mean by certain things or what that
41:06
person means when they say pain or when they talk about fatigue or when they
41:10
talk about, you know, post-exercise soreness.
41:12
It's me trying to build up a real picture of what does that person mean by it because actually,
41:19
two different people can use the same language and mean
41:22
very different things and until we've sort of really done a deep dive on that
41:27
i don't know what that particular individual is talking about when when when
41:31
they talk about you know they say oh i i get tired when i get to you know when
41:36
i've done this many repetitions or something and again for me to understand
41:40
well does that mean that.
41:43
Oh, it's just a little bit of fatigue, but you could probably carry on?
41:45
Or does it mean, no, you're going to go away and collapse in a corner?
41:49
What kind of tide are we talking here?
41:52
All of those details are so important to understand when you're working with
41:57
somebody, especially when,
41:59
When it's somebody who is quite sensitive to those small changes and who you
42:03
can very easily flare up if you overdo things, spending the time to do that.
42:09
And also so that they can start to understand what you mean as well.
42:16
So when I say to people, if I give you an exercise or something,
42:21
if anything doesn't feel right at any point or this doesn't feel good to you,
42:27
I'd always rather you stop doing it. And then we can talk about it.
42:31
Don't just push through. I don't want you to do that.
42:34
And again, it's sort of understanding that this is our sort of,
42:37
these are our ground rules.
42:38
And that's really important, again, because, again, you know,
42:44
so many of these people have had bad experiences with exercise, with rehab.
42:49
I mean, even going back to PE at school, you know, I think there are often layers
42:54
of trauma to unpack there, as well as actually just dealing with the physical condition.
42:59
So I'm just going to dump in there really quickly. So specific to the neurodivergence,
43:05
particularly the autistic clients who are mobile.
43:09
If you give them an exercise, I tend to give them a really small number of reps
43:15
to begin with, and then they'll come back the next week and they'll go...
43:19
Oh, you know, I have sore hands or whatever. I'm like, what did you do?
43:22
Oh, I decided, oh, I did 30 minutes or 45 minutes of it because I really loved it.
43:27
And actually, they have no concept of when their bodies are done.
43:32
They have no feedback in the system whatsoever.
43:35
And I'm like, how many did I ask you to do? Oh, three.
43:39
Three reps. You did 45 minutes because I loved it.
43:43
So these are the things that you also have to take into account with
43:46
your neurodivergent hypermobile clients is
43:50
that right now write it
43:53
down because they go
43:56
away and they're like yes oh this is
43:59
i can hear this this is really exciting and off they go and you're like no and
44:04
you know i'm telling them off the whole time for all sorts of things and also
44:09
other things they do Because cognitive energy equals an expenditure,
44:17
you know, it all uses the same resources and they do fatigue more quickly because
44:21
if they're maybe masking more
44:24
or they're going to a party or they're going out that week to an event,
44:29
then they don't need to do so many reps of whatever we're giving them because
44:33
they are using up their energy resources.
44:35
So you need to keep them are you
44:38
it's about educating them as much and
44:42
you learn with them but you also have to educate them that
44:44
they have to to learn to manage themselves sometimes
44:48
a bit better i'm not i was laughing there because that is very true of me that's
44:54
i mean i would say that in my when i'm exercising the feedback my body's getting
44:59
it kind of has to get in the same queue is everything else and at some point
45:02
tomorrow I might realise that I overdid it but I'm absolutely not going to realise in the moment.
45:09
But I think the flip side of that actually is that for a lot of us movement
45:13
exercise it feels great because it's regulating and.
45:19
A lot of the time, and this is something that I've found, is that I came to sport, to exercise.
45:26
You know, I got into martial arts when I was a teenager and I immediately loved it.
45:31
I didn't understand then why that was so important to me.
45:35
But again, in hindsight, I think a lot of it is to do with that neurodivergence
45:39
and it's because there is something sort of really grounding about that.
45:45
And that's one of the reasons why I need that.
45:49
And actually, if I've got a really stressful week and you take away my exercise,
45:53
that is not going to make things better. That is going to make things worse.
45:56
So there is a balance to get there.
45:58
It's sort of how is that person's relationship with exercise,
46:02
with fatigue and with all of those other things.
46:05
And that's such an individual thing, again, that we've got to,
46:08
you know, is this giving you energy? Is it taking away?
46:12
How does that interact with the other things you've got to do?
46:14
You know, different forms of exercise will have different effects.
46:18
As i said there is there's so much there and it's
46:21
about getting people to be aware of those things for themselves so they
46:24
can make those adjustments i mean one of the things i
46:27
always like to explain to people when we're talking about how much to do and
46:32
like you you know i find i'll give somebody a small number of reps very often
46:36
they'll go away and they will do you know 10 times as many because they think
46:40
they want to get better faster and i'll explain to them i'll say look it's like
46:44
if you take, if we give you a medicine,
46:46
you know, if you take two paracetamol for a headache, you know, that, that might work.
46:50
If you take 20 because you think it's going to make your headache better 10
46:54
times faster, that's probably not going to be a good idea, right?
46:58
And as soon as you say it like that, people go, oh yeah, that makes sense.
47:03
And we kind of go, well, the thing with exercise is we've got to find the right dose.
47:07
We've got to find the right dose for you, which isn't going to be the same as it is for anyone else.
47:12
So what I want to do is I want to start my idea a little bit low,
47:15
and then we're going to gradually build up, and we're going to try and find
47:19
that sweet spot. So we're giving your body the right stimulus.
47:23
You know, not too much so that we make sure, but not too little so that you don't get a response.
47:29
And when you get people on board
47:30
with that, they can do a lot of this calibration for themselves, I find.
47:35
When you give them those guidelines and you get them to understand,
47:38
well, what is it that your body's trying to tell you?
47:41
And again, we'll talk about that some people find it easier to tune into those
47:45
signals than others, and some people might need to make a special effort to do that.
47:51
These are the sorts of things that I like to work with on people.
47:55
So what they go away with is actually a toolkit rather than just a prescription.
48:02
Very cool. So again, it boils down to checking for understanding,
48:06
open-ended questions, not assuming, not giving the option to go, yeah, that's fine.
48:10
You've really got to work on that communication, haven't you?
48:12
What have you understood by this?
48:14
What are you going to do when you go away? How do you think it's going to help with that sort of stuff?
48:18
Great. No, really, really useful clinical examples of that from everybody.
48:22
It's seven minutes to go. I want to see if we can drop a couple more pearls of wisdom.
48:27
Like I'm really still thinking of putting the neurodivergence question at the
48:32
top so you could modify your communication.
48:33
I love the idea of the dosing. I love the analogy of the paracetamols.
48:36
And there's a couple other there which are still in my mind.
48:39
Is there any other ones we can give to not only how to treat the client in front
48:46
of us, because it may well be out of our scope, but if we're in the beautiful position here,
48:49
whenever particularly massage therapists are feeling burnt out and like I'm
48:53
at the bottom of the ladder and everything,
48:55
I really try and remind soft tissue therapists that you're not a,
48:58
you're a hugely important part of the welfare of this person because they're
49:02
going to come to you when they've got pain, particularly masquerading pain of some form.
49:05
When you're going to have a relationship with them where you really can help
49:09
with their behavior change and get them to make that call to go
49:11
back to the GP to do something they were scared of doing because
49:14
the card looked a bit kind of like what can
49:17
we do as that kind
49:20
of therapist to really help signpost what questions should
49:23
we be doing if it's a case of a question or how should we change what maybe
49:28
we've been taught to become better at being able to signpost these individuals
49:31
whether it's both or one or the other neurodivergence or or hypermobility we'll
49:37
go around the circle okay because i know what you guys are like we'll do kind of one each.
49:42
Who wants to go first? That wasn't me having a go at you, Rosie.
49:44
I'll jump in there. Sorry. Go on, you go first.
49:49
I'll forget what I wanted to say otherwise. I'm having a very ADHD evening. I think it's crazy.
49:55
Anyway, I won't get sidetracked. Give me your personal wisdom.
50:02
So I think a lot of this is letting people in, giving people autonomy.
50:10
When i give people advice on sort of
50:14
what i always say look you're the expert on you i'm here
50:17
you know to talk this through we're trying
50:20
to figure this out together you know this is this is a team team
50:23
effort it's not telling you something you know i think i need all of that experience
50:29
that you've got all of your nations and together we're going to come to to put
50:33
something together i think when people understand they're the one who's who
50:38
are in charge of making those decisions and you give them that autonomy back.
50:42
I think generally people tend to do much better and they feel that.
50:48
Empowered to go away and to experiment with things that's
50:52
really cool yeah they may even know who they're supposed
50:55
to be calling they may even be already being told they might have been told but
50:58
they're just not doing it but if you give them that autonomy that they're in control and
51:01
you're here to walk with them bam and that's massive isn't
51:04
it really cool there is a slightly tricky thing when it
51:07
comes to you know if somebody comes in and i've had
51:10
it those few times they're obviously neurodivergent and it's
51:13
a question of should i mention this you know is this a conversation we're going
51:18
to have and sometimes I will and sometimes I won't a lot depends on the context
51:22
again there's a there's no real easy way to sort of say you know do or you don't
51:29
and that I think it depends on you know do I think this is going to be a useful
51:32
conversation about person,
51:34
and I will never frame it as a diagnostic in a diagnostic way because I'm not
51:40
qualified to do I will never say, I think you are.
51:43
What I might say is, what do you know about?
51:47
What do you know about? Have you seen any divergence?
51:52
And sometimes I will talk a little bit about my experiences.
51:56
Sometimes, you know, again, I might sort of suggest that this might be something
52:00
the person might want to look into.
52:03
If it's something that I think is clinically affecting the thing that they came
52:07
to me to deal with, But I will always be a little bit careful about how I frame
52:11
that because, again, you know, in my head, I might be thinking, yeah, obviously.
52:17
But actually, again, I'm very aware that I'm not qualified to make that diagnosis.
52:23
I'm not a psychologist.
52:25
So I'm always going to sort of hedge it.
52:28
But it's giving that person the awareness so that they can then go and look
52:33
into that for themselves if that's appropriate.
52:36
Very cool. Great advice. And at the table, Jess, what are you thinking?
52:41
I think to follow on from that, really, I think there is something really important
52:46
about finding out goals or wants or what brought you here today,
52:52
what are you hoping to achieve from our time together, how would you like to
52:56
feel when you leave today.
52:57
I think it's really easy, particularly actually
53:01
when you tend to work with a particular
53:04
community to start to make assumptions about why somebody's arrived
53:07
what it is they might be wanting you know
53:10
I think um I certainly if I go for a massage
53:12
which is very rare because I don't like it on
53:16
the whole I don't leave feeling very good afterwards but
53:20
if I go I'm going because I I want to
53:22
have a lie down I want to switch off probably but if you read
53:25
my medical history then you start thinking well probably need
53:28
to rehab that ankle and you know she's hyperextending
53:31
and knees and not breathing properly and all the
53:34
rest of it but I think these things are really important
53:38
because we can so easily catch
53:41
on to the thing that we're interested in or the
53:44
thing that we hear or that we just happen to have watched a podcast about or
53:49
whatever it might be yes of course the neurodivergence hypermobility comes into
53:56
play Of course it does in the decisions we make in how we treat that person
54:00
or the aftercare that we give them.
54:02
But that might not be why they've arrived.
54:05
So I think some of those kind of open questions become really important.
54:10
Absolutely. Absolutely. Very cool. Very nice. Yeah.
54:15
Okay, Bonnie. So definitely great tips from both of them.
54:20
Totally agree with that. I think the autonomy thing is something I definitely do.
54:25
They come in and I'm always asking them what they want that week.
54:30
You know, what is it you would like? And I let them lead my way completely through
54:36
a session rather than doing what I maybe think they need.
54:39
Because they're not going to respond to something that I think they don't want.
54:46
I think also one of the things I always ask them, especially if they're a new
54:50
client, is what kind of treatments they've had before and what's worked and what hasn't.
54:56
Because if they've got stuff that hasn't worked before, I'm not going to be
54:59
the magic person that it works for.
55:02
So you can get a really good idea of how that person's responded to different
55:06
things by asking that question.
55:09
I think that's kind of definitely a top tip.
55:12
My other thing is... I believe in that. Yes.
55:16
Educate yourselves on all aspects.
55:19
I know that we have our own, you know, we can't diagnose and we can't do other
55:24
things, but for me, educating myself in every aspect,
55:29
the gut issues, the dysautonomias, the POTS, the MCAS, the neurodivergence,
55:35
having the ability to see and understand when they come to you and the problem
55:41
isn't going to be fixed by me
55:43
until they've seen another practitioner and then being able to refer out.
55:48
And if you know they're not getting anywhere medically, then refer them to the
55:52
support groups and the charities.
55:56
And they can give you the information that you need to move forward and they
56:02
will have all of the consultants' names and all of the best places to go.
56:07
So just don't be afraid as a practitioner as well to go in and use those charities.
56:13
You don't have to have the condition because they're all set up for practitioners
56:16
as well as people with the condition.
56:19
So I would say don't be afraid to do that.
56:22
The more you understand the whole picture, the easier it is to then just work with that client.
56:29
Amazing. Great advice. I'm really good. It's 9.02.
56:35
People who are joining us live, they're still there watching and writing things down.
56:39
I can hear you have stuck with the whole hour. I really appreciate it.
56:43
And thanks for the comments in there.
56:45
If people who are watching have got some questions, there was a few in comments
56:49
in there which we didn't have time, with symptoms and things,
56:52
then what do you suggest these people do?
56:54
Could they send an email to somebody, Bonnie, do you think? I'm very happy to answer.
57:01
I'll just say Bonnie, for example. I see people endlessly on Zoom.
57:06
I see lots of people all the time.
57:09
And if you have trouble with a client, I'll see you with a client too.
57:12
That's great. We'll make sure links like this go into the show notes.
57:16
And indeed, if you want to contact any of our guests, it might not be straight away.
57:20
And they might say they'll do it and then you'll never hear from them again.
57:22
But that's the beauty of it. But we will chase them up if you do send something
57:26
in. We'll give you the links.
57:27
And also use YouTube as well. We can continue conversations on YouTube.
57:31
It's a beautiful thing. YouTube just stays there. It appears more on Google.
57:34
One thing before we go as well, there was a question, Rosie,
57:36
which you reminded me of, which was last week. I think we kind of touched on
57:40
it on Dr. Google and looking things up.
57:42
When it comes to your divergence, what's your advice on that?
57:45
You picked up on that, didn't you?
57:46
Yes. So, yeah, if people want to look into this a bit more for themselves,
57:51
there is a lot of really good information online.
57:54
To some extent, it's about knowing where to go because there is,
57:59
as with everything, also bad information online.
58:02
I think looking at information...
58:06
There's increasingly more and more sort of lived experience type neurodivergent
58:10
led groups, organizations, create content creators out there.
58:15
And I think they can often be a great place to start.
58:19
If anyone is struggling, not knowing where to go, or they're not sure if some
58:23
information they found is good or not, I'm very happy to send an email to Matt.
58:30
I don't mind having a look over those and getting back to people.
58:35
At uh as i say there are some i
58:39
mean i don't want to name particular organizations because again
58:42
there's lots and i will miss some but there
58:45
is a lot of good stuff out there nowadays as we always with all of these things
58:49
just apply your critical thinking you know don't don't take anything as gospel
58:54
but check it out with a few sources and as i say i think best practice now as
59:01
your organization is to include lots of lived experience and.
59:07
People sharing their their own journeys great
59:11
advice great advice and use us people use
59:14
us i mean we're pre-reptable source sta clinician podcast use us you know we've
59:18
got such a great array of guests and people we can put you in contact with and
59:22
great communities um so yeah do um fire questions or send us emails matt at
59:26
the sta.co.uk and i will be the conduit to to whoever could best answer your question.
59:33
Before I forget as well, if you are a neurodivergent therapist,
59:37
I feel so bad about not letting non-neurodivergent therapists into this group.
59:43
It really is playing on my mind. But this group is all about just for neurodivergent
59:47
therapists because we want to provide a safe place for neurodivergent therapists
59:51
to kind of hang out and talk about their issues, concerns, and also share advice.
59:57
So we have created on the back of this podcast, really, it was just about conversation,
1:00:03
communication, a Facebook group, which is called Neurodivergent MSK Clinicians,
1:00:07
saying what's in the tin, on the tin.
1:00:09
And you're welcome, if you are a Neurodivergent MSK clinician,
1:00:13
whether it's through formal diagnosis or not, to look us up on Facebook and
1:00:16
join that. It's growing rapidly.
1:00:18
We're having some wonderful conversations
1:00:19
already in it. There's some nice resources being shared as well.
1:00:23
It's not just a repeat for people who are interested in learning more about neurodiversity,
1:00:29
It is at the moment, well, it is solely for people who identify as neurodivergent
1:00:34
and providing a safe place for that, for those conversations without having
1:00:37
to feel judged or worried about people not understanding you.
1:00:40
I mean, there's still bound to be loads of misunderstanding in there,
1:00:42
but it'll be more limited because at least everybody's kind of shooting from the same hip.
1:00:46
So yeah, look us up at that. We're really good for each other, let's be fair.
1:00:51
This is the beautiful honeymoon period of it. I think we're about 60 people
1:00:55
now and it's all just flowing beautifully.
1:00:56
Everyone loves each other and the comments are like kisses and hands and high fives.
1:01:00
Yeah, this will change, I'm sure. But at the moment, yeah, really healthy place
1:01:03
and it will grow. And we will look at doing webinars and things like that.
1:01:06
I've got all sorts of ideas because it's growing so nice and we're getting some great feedback.
1:01:09
So yeah, if you're a neurodivergent MSK clinician and you want to find somewhere
1:01:13
to hang out and get ideas and also give your own help when you can,
1:01:16
then that'll be, there is, that is existing now.
1:01:18
And I'll put the link in the show notes for that as well.
1:01:21
Next week, I'm sorry to interrupt somebody just then.
1:01:25
No? Sure. Next week, we are going to go to part three of our series.
1:01:33
It's going by so quickly.
1:01:34
And we're going to be, it's called Barriers.
1:01:37
And we're going to have another two people on the panel who will be taking us
1:01:41
through the typical barriers which are faced.
1:01:43
And again, how you can help neurodivergent clients or patients by reducing those barriers.
1:01:48
With me, I'm going to James Dewar-Haggart and Leslie Campbell,
1:01:53
who a lot of you know will be coming as well to chat through that so again
1:01:56
a lovely chance if you can come live that'd be fantastic and then
1:01:59
the week after just remind you that's going to be the
1:02:02
neurodivergent therapist that will be looking particularly at
1:02:05
how you can help yourselves how you can help your
1:02:08
colleagues if you are a neurodivergent therapist or
1:02:11
you work with a neurodivergent therapist and and yeah
1:02:14
just some great tips and it will bring in the whole kind of series together that'll
1:02:18
be with sarah mahog and cassandra clemens and benjamin
1:02:21
mace crossly as well so that's gonna be a fantastic finale
1:02:24
to this season which hopefully everyone's still enjoying let the
1:02:27
conversations continue like i say matt the sta.co.uk and off
1:02:30
to youtube as well if you want to add some comments and talk amongst yourselves
1:02:33
it's not just this week we talk about this hopefully we'll be there for a long
1:02:37
time and we'll look back hopefully and laugh at things we said and thought and
1:02:41
see how we've all evolved and how everything's sorted and and healthcare is
1:02:44
just sorted it's wonderful and nobody will even remember who farage ever was
1:02:48
it'd be a great time of the years. It'd be wonderful.
1:02:50
Getting a bit political there. Right. Thank you so much for joining us live.
1:02:54
We will hopefully see some of you next week at the same time,
1:02:57
eight o'clock Tuesday on either YouTube or Facebook.
1:03:01
And once again, just thank you to my guests. So Bonnie Southgate,
1:03:04
thank you much for joining us, Bonnie. Oh, look at that. Names are mixed up on here.
1:03:10
You're all identifying as someone else at the moment. That'll be confusing.
1:03:15
I'm not going to So yeah, thanks so much, Bonnie Southgate, founder of Movement
1:03:18
Anatomy Essentials, an MSK advisor that says Connective. I can't let it go. Sorry.
1:03:23
Nicky Mansfield asked the question, when's the book coming out,
1:03:25
Bonnie? I don't know whether to hit you with that because it's been a while.
1:03:30
I think Therapy Expo 1983, I asked you about it. It decides to write a book, okay? Yeah, I know.
1:03:35
It doesn't go well. Is it still in the pipeline? I'm hanging on John Gibbons'
1:03:40
words that his first book took him 10 years to write.
1:03:43
The problem is, is I did an MSC.
1:03:47
Having written the book, I did an MSC sort of just before finishing and then
1:03:51
decided to rewrite the whole thing.
1:03:53
Oh really yeah that's that's but also there's so
1:03:56
much research coming out the whole time and i have said to my my illustrator
1:04:04
and my sidekick who helps me like not cry the whole time over it that if it
1:04:11
it has to be done in 2026 there is no okay that's good fighting talk,
1:04:16
hyper mobile moment is still staying with the title the
1:04:19
hyper mobile universe it's all staying every chapter
1:04:22
is written i'm just going through each chapter and then i
1:04:25
get in black holes for days and weeks on end and
1:04:28
then bad bits and then go i don't like it like
1:04:31
the original better then i go back anyway i'm learning lots the whole time though
1:04:35
i'm sure you are it's very nice for you but you've got a whole audience out
1:04:39
there which is also sharing with you i promise i promise i will i will amazing
1:04:45
okay there you go nikki there's the answer for that No more dates. No more dates. So, yeah.
1:04:50
So, thanks, Body Southgate. Also, thank you, Jessica Yaneman,
1:04:53
Advanced Clinical Massage Therapist at Ease Therapist. Thank you so much,
1:04:55
Jessica, for sharing your story and your daughters and everything.
1:04:57
Really, again, wonderful information. Thank you so much. Thank you.
1:05:00
And thank you, Rosie Sexton, for coming twice in a week and sharing your expertise
1:05:05
of osteopath at Alton Health and Performance. So, thanks, Rosie. Really appreciate it.
1:05:09
Right, that's it, people. Again, everyone in the studio, thanks for joining
1:05:12
us live. Love the fact you're joining us.
1:05:14
And hopefully we'll see some of you next Tuesday. Until then, take care of each other.