Latest / Political Capital with Rob Shaw / Political Capital 181 - BC Conservative drama; BC pulls medication from dying girl, BC Ferries fallout continues and natural resources.

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Political Capital 181 - BC Conservative drama; BC pulls medication from dying girl, BC Ferries fallout continues and natural resources. · Political Capital with Rob Shaw

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Speaker 1: Check podcasts.
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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, and welcome to Political Capital, your source for
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Speaker 2: all the latest and VC politics. I'm your host, Rob Shaw.
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Speaker 2: The summer continues on and so does BC politics. It
0:23
Speaker 2: is a very very busy time in the political world.
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Speaker 2: We have the Conservatives battling internal issues and attacks from
0:30
Speaker 2: their one BC rivals. We have the NDP government under
0:33
Speaker 2: fire for allowing BC fairies to contract with the government
0:36
Speaker 2: of China and cutting off medication to a nine year
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Speaker 2: old girl with a fatal disease. We will get into
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Speaker 2: that and we will bring in the panel to walk
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Speaker 2: us through all of this. Ally Blades, Jillian Oliver and
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Speaker 2: Jeff Ferryer are here as always each and every week.
0:50
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here. Let's start with the Conservatives.
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Speaker 2: Lots of rumors, whispers, grumbles about the leader, John Rustad
0:58
Speaker 2: and his future heading into big caucus meeting on Wednesday,
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Speaker 2: he backed away from some blackmail allegations he'd made against
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Speaker 2: the one BC party and he survived the caucus meeting.
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Speaker 2: Everyone's standing behind him at the end of that meeting.
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Speaker 3: Well.
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Speaker 2: He also undergoes a very long, very long leadership review
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Speaker 2: process that is going to take several months. Ali, Let's
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Speaker 2: start with you on this what's going on in the
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Speaker 2: Conservative Party right now? And how important was this week?
1:29
Speaker 2: What do we need to know about what happened this week?
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Speaker 3: Do you think?
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Speaker 1: I think to understand what happened this week with the
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Speaker 1: caucus meeting, we have to go back to some things
1:37
Speaker 1: that have been happening online, and that I believe started
1:41
Speaker 1: with a jazz Joe Hall tweet kind of explaining a
1:45
Speaker 1: Ryan Beatty post about how the party is not unified,
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Speaker 1: that there's potentially some leadership pardon me, some leadership hopefuls
1:58
Speaker 1: already organizing to take John out. These are the political
2:04
Speaker 1: gossip and rumors I think that we all kind of
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Speaker 1: live for, at least like certainly I do. And so
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Speaker 1: that's kind of what happened. And then we went into
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Speaker 1: the caucus meeting. And then at the end of the
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Speaker 1: caucust meeting, John Rustat comes out with all his team
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Speaker 1: of MLAs behind him saying that everything is okay. But
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Speaker 1: that's not necessarily the final product of everything is okay.
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Speaker 1: Let me explain that the Conservatives are in the middle
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Speaker 1: of a leadership review. Now the MLAs actually don't get
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Speaker 1: to say that, okay, we're good. This is the guy
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Speaker 1: who's going to take us into the next election. In fact,
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Speaker 1: that's the membership. And so what's logistically happening is that
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Speaker 1: there are regional votes that will come up with a
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Speaker 1: certain number of writings per regional vote, and that they
2:54
Speaker 1: will continue on throughout the entire summer. We can debate
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Speaker 1: whether or not that's a little too long, or whether
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Speaker 1: or not this should just be a day. In contrast,
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Speaker 1: for example, the federal Conservatives are kind of in a
3:05
Speaker 1: similar place right now, where Pierre Paulyeff has to go
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Speaker 1: through a leadership review that will be done at a
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Speaker 1: convention in Calgary in January, just one day. And then
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Speaker 1: when we take a look at like Danielle Smith when
3:18
Speaker 1: she had her UCP leadership review that was about six
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Speaker 1: thousand people coming together at one day one convention. It's
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Speaker 1: actually quite funny because some of the older members from
3:29
Speaker 1: the Conservative Party provincially called me up and said, well,
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Speaker 1: when's the AGM I want to go vote. I'm like, sir,
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Speaker 1: that's actually not what's going to happen this time. You
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Speaker 1: will get an email, they will come to you with
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Speaker 1: a ballot box and that's how we're going to vote.
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Speaker 1: And then in September. In the fall, they will announce
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Speaker 1: the results of all of these regional meetings. And so
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Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions even just about that
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Speaker 1: about the leadership review process. It's all summer long, it's
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Speaker 1: a tour, it's coming to your backyard. And then what
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Speaker 1: I dive dove into a little bit this week was
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Speaker 1: thinking about, Okay, well, I'm going to treat this a
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Speaker 1: little bit like a campaign. What are the MLAs doing,
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Speaker 1: what are organizers doing, and what are the potential for
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Speaker 1: membership drives during this process. You would think then that
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Speaker 1: the party would enable some more people getting involved in
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Speaker 1: the process and that we would see the membership count
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Speaker 1: go up, and so far we're really not seeing that.
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Speaker 1: If you ask an MLA, well, how are you going
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Speaker 1: to be involved in this to support that leader that
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Speaker 1: you stood behind at the caucus meeting, they're not making
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Speaker 1: phone calls to their membership locally and there's really not
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Speaker 1: much going around, so you could kind of miss it
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Speaker 1: if you weren't paying attention to your spam bucks.
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Speaker 3: That sounds like a mess to me.
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Speaker 2: Hey, I don't know, like it doesn't sound I don't know.
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Speaker 2: Jeff in the New Democrat World there's a convention, annual convention,
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Speaker 2: and they have a vote of the people that are there.
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Speaker 3: I don't know.
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Speaker 2: I don't know what to make of this process. But
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Speaker 2: also the larger pressures.
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Speaker 3: On John Rasstad that you're seeing the I.
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Speaker 2: Thought the NDP were quite clever and kind of out
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Speaker 2: maneuvering him by punting the blackmail issues the RCNP and
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Speaker 2: kind of putting the onus on Rustad to have to
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Speaker 2: step up on that issue, which he backpedaled away from
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Speaker 2: a little bit to what are your thoughts on this?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it is a mess, and if it's coming
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Speaker 4: to my backyard, stay out of my yard. Conservatives, get
5:35
Speaker 4: off my lawn. I don't want to see you there
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Speaker 4: for months and months and months. Look at here's if
5:44
Speaker 4: you have to have all your MLA stand behind you
5:48
Speaker 4: for a photo op, chances are that you don't have
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Speaker 4: the full support of your party and your members. If
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Speaker 4: your members are online doing nasty tweets at each other,
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Speaker 4: chances are your leader who doesn't have the caucus behind him.
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Speaker 4: Look at I think we're seeing party heavy hitters like
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Speaker 4: Ryan Beattie, background folks who have a lot of say
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Speaker 4: over how this party and the center right works coming
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Speaker 4: out and saying John Russtad, you had an opportunity and
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Speaker 4: you didn't execute excellently an election campaign. John Rustdad, you
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Speaker 4: think you're the only leader who is the best there is,
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Speaker 4: the best there was and the best there there ever
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Speaker 4: will be. And you're not results say that you haven't.
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Speaker 4: The Conservatives were at their apex of support in Canada.
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Speaker 4: You couldn't get the ball across the line. You couldn't
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Speaker 4: get it done. Your caucus is falling apart. There needs
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Speaker 4: to be a better, stronger leader and that's what's happening
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Speaker 4: on the Conservative side, at least with the public sees.
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Speaker 4: And it's going to be a mess for months and
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Speaker 4: months and the government couldn't be happier.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, good references there. I like that one. Don't know
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Speaker 3: what you're talking about, Jillian.
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Speaker 2: Parties have all sorts of internal turmoil. It's kind of
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Speaker 2: how it works, is it. But this seems like, as
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Speaker 2: I pointed out, kind of a mess.
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Speaker 3: What's your take on it?
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Speaker 5: It's really the fuddling why they decided to draw this out,
7:18
Speaker 5: because what it does is it keeps rest at under
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Speaker 5: pressure all summer long. It gives the ability for other
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Speaker 5: you know, hopeful leaders to organize against him, not just
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Speaker 5: like at one point in time. Normally when you have
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Speaker 5: a campaign, there's one day to vote, or sometimes, you know,
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Speaker 5: you might be a leadership election that has like a
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Speaker 5: short like five day voting period. But this creates so
7:38
Speaker 5: many opportunities for people who want to think they could
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Speaker 5: do a better job or want to get some more
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Speaker 5: power for themselves to maneuver against him, and keeps them
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Speaker 5: in a constant state of flux and chaos. And that's
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Speaker 5: what we're really seeing. And then I think, you know,
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Speaker 5: the other question is it really puts a spotlight on
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Speaker 5: his leadership. And I think this blackmail letter, you know,
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Speaker 5: it is just another nail in the coffin and another
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Speaker 5: test that Rustad has failed to put out a letter.
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Speaker 5: You know, nobody expects three D chests at this point,
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Speaker 5: but you need to be able to think at least
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Speaker 5: one step ahead. And this one was really obvious. And
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Speaker 5: he really didn't just say blackmail once, he said it
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Speaker 5: a bunch of times, put it in a letter. There's
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Speaker 5: clear consequences for those kinds of accusations and him and
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Speaker 5: his staff should have been aware of that. And now
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Speaker 5: he's trying to backtrack and it just looks messy. I think,
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Speaker 5: you know the other side of it is typically it
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Speaker 5: is very common to see this kind of thing happen
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Speaker 5: in parties. If you look at you know, the last
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Speaker 5: time this happened in BC politics with the eb's leadership election,
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Speaker 5: there was you know, controversy between him and the other contestant,
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Speaker 5: and the party put a lid on it really quickly
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Speaker 5: and shut it down. And that creates controversy in the
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Speaker 5: short term and you know, consternation, but it ends it
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Speaker 5: quickly so that the leader can then kind of consolidate
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Speaker 5: power and move on. Instead, they're kind of leaving themselves
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Speaker 5: in this sort of position of flex for many months
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Speaker 5: where their opponents can take advantage of it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, every single AGM or leadership review in a political
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Speaker 2: party these days seems to have some undercurrent of controversy
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Speaker 2: to it, no matter the party. But what seems to
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Speaker 2: be unique about this one is that one BC has
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Speaker 2: broken off and spending its entire time just highlighting that
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Speaker 2: issue to fight back against the Conservatives, whereas Jelian, as
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Speaker 2: you said, most parties managed to pull it back together
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Speaker 2: and kind of move on, and that is not what
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Speaker 2: we were seeing with the Conservatives. I'm sure we'll talk
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Speaker 2: more about it. I want to move on to another case,
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Speaker 2: a high profile but heartbreaking case of Charlie Pollock, the
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Speaker 2: nine year old girl with a rare fatal disease whose
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Speaker 2: medication to reduce her seizures and prolong her life has
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Speaker 2: been pulled by the BC government. There were calls for
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Speaker 2: the Premiere to intervene here on some compassionate grounds. He
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Speaker 2: said no, said he wants to respect the drug experts
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Speaker 2: who made this decision and concluded they've concluded that the
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Speaker 2: drug Brenua, which costs a million dollars year year, won't
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Speaker 2: make much of a clinical difference to Charlie due to
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Speaker 2: the progression of her disease. So you have kind of
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Speaker 2: the family and doctors and one side saying they see
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Speaker 2: the benefits, the drug experts on the other side. Science, politics, compassion, precedent, rules, principles. Jillian,
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Speaker 2: let's stay with you on that. This is a very
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Speaker 2: difficult case. But the discussion about it, what have you
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Speaker 2: made on that and what do you think about the
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Speaker 2: pressure that the government is under here to do something.
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Speaker 5: I think it's a surprising one for me. I think,
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Speaker 5: you know, I understand you know, especially when it comes
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Speaker 5: to questions of healthcare, that the government really wants to
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Speaker 5: lean on its internal experts and the process. But I
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Speaker 5: think there's a lot of reasons in this case to
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Speaker 5: make an exception. One obviously at being a child, and
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Speaker 5: two it being such a rare disease that there really
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Speaker 5: isn't any precedent for the reporting. Says that she's the
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Speaker 5: only person known around the world who have been taken
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Speaker 5: off this drug for against her own doctor's advice. And
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Speaker 5: there's you know, there's questions around the drug. You know,
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Speaker 5: some experts, some old data says that it doesn't work
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Speaker 5: as well as the disease progresses, but other experts and
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Speaker 5: their data says that it does. So I think that
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Speaker 5: it's very surprising that the government has decided to double
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Speaker 5: down on something where it seems like there's some room
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Speaker 5: for an exception, especially in a time where the Premiere
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Speaker 5: has been shown that shown that he's willing to make
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Speaker 5: exceptions to rules when it comes to other issues like
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Speaker 5: the Bill fifteen and bypassing procedures on resource development projects.
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Speaker 5: I don't know why they wouldn't make an exception in
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Speaker 5: this case as well.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're good points.
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Speaker 2: Jeff, you've worked in the Ministry of health, can you
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Speaker 2: explain a little bit about maybe what government might be
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Speaker 2: thinking here. There's principles at play, there's drug review policies,
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Speaker 2: there's a bunch of things that are going on behind
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Speaker 2: the scenes.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 4: Sure, this is first of all, to every parent's worst nightmare,
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Speaker 4: and like full expect for families and patients and doctors
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Speaker 4: who are caring for them to advocate for them. And
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Speaker 4: I think it's good that those folks are doing it.
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Speaker 4: I also think that this is one of those clear
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Speaker 4: examples of how working in the ministry of Health as
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Speaker 4: a politician is where you go to have your political
12:21
Speaker 4: career die. It's this fraud intersection of human desperation and
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Speaker 4: clinical evidence. Like ministers find themselves in this no man's
12:31
Speaker 4: land where you have emotional, high profile personal stories meet
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Speaker 4: the cold logic of therapeutic standards, expert recommendations and limited
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Speaker 4: public resources. Now, if it were simply about money, the
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Speaker 4: government would pay the money. This is folks in government
12:51
Speaker 4: would like nothing more than to have this issue go away.
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Speaker 4: But there's this issue of precedent and what could happen
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Speaker 4: to the province's ability to have clear standards for how
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Speaker 4: drugs are covered financially in the province. Right now, these
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Speaker 4: coverage is guided by clear standards established through rigorous evidence
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Speaker 4: based processes, and this insures treatments funded by the public
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Speaker 4: actually work as determined by independent medical experts, not individual
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Speaker 4: doctors and advocacy groups who are advocates and play an
13:37
Speaker 4: important role in these decisions. But they're advocates. And once
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Speaker 4: politicians start to overrule criterion standards on an ad hoc basis,
13:47
Speaker 4: on a case by case basis, the door opens to
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Speaker 4: arbitrary decision making on these issues and to lobbying pressure
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Speaker 4: from pharmaceutical companies eager to bypass scientific review to sell
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Speaker 4: their drugs, risk turning the system from you know, one
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Speaker 4: based on efficacy to one governed by politics. And that's
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Speaker 4: that's not something that serves the public well. So the
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Speaker 4: government is not choosing to ignore suffering. It's not heartless,
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Speaker 4: which has been the claims of everyone around this this issue.
14:18
Speaker 4: I think it's it's about upholding a principle that public
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Speaker 4: drug funding should be grounded in science, and that's uh.
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Speaker 4: And the government is losing on this argument. Folks. Emotions
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Speaker 4: are running high and they're you know, the point is,
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Speaker 4: how could government do this to a person and their family?
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Speaker 4: And it's a fair question, and I think it's just
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Speaker 4: again that matter of the principle of decisions about public
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Speaker 4: health dollars where they go being based on science and evidence,
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Speaker 4: peer reviewed uh.
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Speaker 3: Information, Yeah, no as a good as a good perspective, Ali,
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Speaker 3: what do you think.
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Speaker 1: What both Jeff and Jillian are saying is absolutely right?
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Speaker 1: And think just to summarize a little bit of what
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Speaker 1: Jeff is saying, I think what you're trying to say,
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Speaker 1: Jeff is that there's like this technical side versus the
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Speaker 1: compassionate side, and that the technical side is really what's
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Speaker 1: going to ensure that this precedent it doesn't create a monster.
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Speaker 1: And that's that's a hard place to be and like,
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Speaker 1: no one can look at this story and not feel something,
15:23
Speaker 1: and that's that's why we're all talking about it. You know,
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Speaker 1: certainly opposition is leveraging this in a way so that
15:29
Speaker 1: they can be seen as the advocate on the on
15:33
Speaker 1: the other side. Technically unfair though, because really what can
15:38
Speaker 1: the government do because it's it's exactly this what Jillian
15:43
Speaker 1: was saying. Once you create that precedent, then who knows
15:46
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, and that they do this for
15:49
Speaker 1: a reason. And to to Jeff's point, it's it's a
15:53
Speaker 1: losing situation for government. There there is how do you
15:56
Speaker 1: win this? And so you just you just you absolutely can't.
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Speaker 1: But what it really made me think of is where
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Speaker 1: is the compassion within government and at what point is
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Speaker 1: that the tipping point to make these exceptions. And I
16:11
Speaker 1: don't doubt that government and the people within it don't
16:15
Speaker 1: feel something while they're making these tough decisions, But there
16:18
Speaker 1: are rules in place for a reason, and that's the
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Speaker 1: most heartbreaking part of it.
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Speaker 3: I think all the perspectives have been accurate on this.
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Speaker 2: I would say the only thing I as the host
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Speaker 2: prerogative rant on this, which is not going to be
16:33
Speaker 2: much of a rant. But I do think that there
16:37
Speaker 2: is an extraordinary and unique part of this case that
16:40
Speaker 2: Jillian touched upon a nine year old girl, the only
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Speaker 2: one in BC with this disease, the first in Canada
16:46
Speaker 2: perhaps a world, to ever be cut off from this
16:49
Speaker 2: medication using the criteria. It is such an ultra rare
16:52
Speaker 2: disease with so few patients, you think that there would
16:55
Speaker 2: be extra emphasis put on the family doctor who sees
16:58
Speaker 2: that real world day to day rather than and I've
17:02
Speaker 2: read the Canada Drug Agency review sometimes incomplete data on
17:08
Speaker 2: how rare this is, including how to discontinue it.
17:12
Speaker 3: The disease is fatal.
17:14
Speaker 2: There's only a few years left without this. Potentially there's
17:17
Speaker 2: experts saying it will be prolonged and painful. I think
17:21
Speaker 2: there's enough there without undermining the precedent to say that
17:28
Speaker 2: there's some sort of unique, rare, special compassionate grounds here
17:32
Speaker 2: without blowing the system up and all of the good
17:36
Speaker 2: points that have been made about we don't want politicians
17:39
Speaker 2: picking and choosing who gets drugs. But at the same time,
17:42
Speaker 2: we don't want a system run by bureaucrats who can't
17:47
Speaker 2: move any of their decisions ever because of the technical
17:52
Speaker 2: wording of the rules.
17:53
Speaker 3: And that's not how government works either.
17:55
Speaker 2: Every day government finds ways to reapply rules in more
17:59
Speaker 2: fare and compassionate ways. That's what MLAs do. That's they
18:04
Speaker 2: help their constituents navigate this.
18:06
Speaker 3: So those are my thoughts. I think the governor should
18:08
Speaker 3: reverse it and.
18:08
Speaker 2: Give Charlie your drugs, and I don't think they should
18:11
Speaker 2: have I think the real mark on this is against
18:14
Speaker 2: the health minister for letting this get this far and
18:16
Speaker 2: not finding a way to do this quietly behind the
18:19
Speaker 2: scenes and get it done like happens all the time.
18:22
Speaker 4: But that's yeah, Can I make one point real quick? Yeah,
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Speaker 4: one I think, and that's I think a well articulated argument,
18:28
Speaker 4: and I think everyone has really added to this debate,
18:32
Speaker 4: which is a complex one. I think if there's one
18:36
Speaker 4: place where the government's argument and the Canada Drug Agency's
18:40
Speaker 4: argument is weak and where the side could the other
18:43
Speaker 4: side could make a technical argument, is that the sample
18:46
Speaker 4: size of the studies would be really, really small, and
18:53
Speaker 4: making firm decisions on a small sample size. We see
18:56
Speaker 4: it in political polling. We say like there's two and
18:59
Speaker 4: it's this, it's a small sample size. I'm also surprised
19:02
Speaker 4: that there's been no discussion about the pharma company. If
19:08
Speaker 4: I were the pharma company and I were convinced that
19:11
Speaker 4: this drug would provide a better quality of life for
19:17
Speaker 4: the individual, that it would prolong their life, that would
19:20
Speaker 4: lead to greater dignity, why wouldn't they, on a compassionate ground,
19:25
Speaker 4: provide the drug to where as a case study that
19:28
Speaker 4: proves the efficacy of the therapy, and I know that
19:31
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to get government off the hook here,
19:34
Speaker 4: so it's fundamentally a question about what government should do.
19:37
Speaker 4: But you would think that if the company that actually
19:40
Speaker 4: manufactures and sells the medication really believed in it, they
19:44
Speaker 4: would use a high profile situation like this to prove it.
19:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have seen that in the past, right, there's
19:51
Speaker 2: often big pharma companies that do apply compassionate grounds to
19:55
Speaker 2: cases and wave their fees. This is not a drug
19:58
Speaker 2: that even if they go fund did a million dollars
20:01
Speaker 2: a year. It has to be applied through your brain,
20:03
Speaker 2: through the skull cap into your brain fluid, so it's
20:06
Speaker 2: not something you can do at home.
20:07
Speaker 3: But you're right, that's part of it too.
20:09
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes behind the scenes, government's able to
20:13
Speaker 2: leverage drug companies to come to better solutions when they're
20:16
Speaker 2: doing business with the government. Just to close off on
20:19
Speaker 2: this A Jillian and Ali, do you think the conservatives
20:22
Speaker 2: in the opposition? I haven't really seen the Greens talk
20:24
Speaker 2: about this. Do you think they a should continue to
20:29
Speaker 2: push this subject the way that they have as a
20:31
Speaker 2: I think the Conservatives called it heartless and evil at
20:36
Speaker 2: one point. Is that a good use of the discussion
20:40
Speaker 2: and is that going to accomplish anything?
20:42
Speaker 3: Do you think, Just to either of you, I.
20:45
Speaker 5: Think they need to be careful about over politicizing it.
20:48
Speaker 5: I think that this is one of those issues where
20:50
Speaker 5: it's not like one that you want to be like
20:53
Speaker 5: really trying to score political points on. I think, you know,
20:56
Speaker 5: supporting healthcare advocates and supporting the family is one. But yeah,
21:00
Speaker 5: I think it's Jeff and Aally both articulated why it's
21:06
Speaker 5: so challenging for governments to make these decisions, and as opposition,
21:09
Speaker 5: you want to be seen as the government in waiting,
21:11
Speaker 5: and I think they have to be careful about the
21:13
Speaker 5: way that they're going about it, for sure.
21:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, Alli, final carefulness comes with an expiration date of
21:20
Speaker 1: how they're advocating for it in the way that they
21:23
Speaker 1: are right that those comments are being about being heartless
21:28
Speaker 1: can only stand for so long unless they come up
21:32
Speaker 1: with other solutions. Maybe you know, some of those listening
21:35
Speaker 1: can take Jeff's point of that's another way to advocate
21:40
Speaker 1: for this family, But to just pin it on the
21:43
Speaker 1: government as a failure isn't really going to help their case,
21:48
Speaker 1: and so it only can work up until a certain point.
21:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, well we will see.
21:53
Speaker 2: I think there's some deadlines coming up on this case
21:55
Speaker 2: that will cause the Premier and others to get asked
21:59
Speaker 2: again about it. Very complex, very difficult topic. Thank you
22:03
Speaker 2: to the panel for walking us through the many angles
22:05
Speaker 2: and considerations of that. All right, our next subject, let's
22:08
Speaker 2: go back to BC Ferries. We have discussed before its
22:11
Speaker 2: decision to buy four new boats from the Chinese government.
22:14
Speaker 3: It says no shipyards bid. There are unions that.
22:17
Speaker 2: Say, well, they can't compete against the country like China,
22:21
Speaker 2: and the BC and Automa should have used this opportunity
22:24
Speaker 2: to revitalize our national shipbuilding sector. We also had the
22:28
Speaker 2: Transportation Minister federally put a haymaker of a letter out
22:32
Speaker 2: about being disappointed about this, saying no federal money should
22:36
Speaker 2: go to China. And then it turns out the Feds
22:38
Speaker 2: are quietly financing this deal through one of their Crown corporations.
22:43
Speaker 2: So does that let's go around here, does that change
22:47
Speaker 2: anything about the BC Ferries dynamic? Jillian, Are we in
22:53
Speaker 2: any different point than we were when it got announced
22:56
Speaker 2: and the government said it was an independent private company
23:00
Speaker 2: and we can't do anything about this, or when the
23:02
Speaker 2: Premier said, I think people mostly just care about not
23:06
Speaker 2: being in a line at a ferry terminal, only want
23:08
Speaker 2: these ships done as quickly as possible. Are we still
23:10
Speaker 2: in the same spot or does this federal component add
23:14
Speaker 2: any wrinkles in do you think?
23:16
Speaker 5: I think what changed is that it lessens the ability
23:20
Speaker 5: for the federal government to throw the provincial government completely
23:24
Speaker 5: under the bus for this. And I hope elucidates that
23:29
Speaker 5: this is more of a complex issue than the federal
23:32
Speaker 5: government and other opponents of it are trying to make
23:36
Speaker 5: it into it. You know, the federal government is transitioning
23:39
Speaker 5: from election mode into governing, and you know, we're kind
23:42
Speaker 5: of I think we're seeing the sort of gap between
23:45
Speaker 5: rhetoric and high minded ideals of like, you know, build
23:49
Speaker 5: everything here, We're going to like totally have this like
23:51
Speaker 5: totally different approach to manufacturing and trade to the realities
23:57
Speaker 5: of like why BC Ferries was in this position to
24:01
Speaker 5: almost have to go with the Chinese shipbuilders because the
24:05
Speaker 5: reality is trying to build seventy percent of the world ships.
24:07
Speaker 5: I learned that through this issue, that is an issue
24:10
Speaker 5: that is like many many decades in the making, and
24:13
Speaker 5: I think obviously not just the responsibility of the BC
24:16
Speaker 5: provincial government that China has been able to corner the
24:19
Speaker 5: global shipbuilding market, and I think, you know, we're sort
24:22
Speaker 5: of just starting to have this conversation about the implications
24:25
Speaker 5: of the globalization of trade. We've been benefiting from lower
24:29
Speaker 5: prices because we've been you know, important things from places
24:32
Speaker 5: with lower labor standards. Now we're starting to have we're
24:35
Speaker 5: at the beginning of a conversation about the implications of
24:38
Speaker 5: that that I think is just getting fleshed out. So
24:40
Speaker 5: I think it brings a little bit of reality to
24:43
Speaker 5: the conversation and helps the provincial government a little bit
24:47
Speaker 5: by showing that they were not the only ones to
24:49
Speaker 5: sign off on this. I don't think the arguments that
24:53
Speaker 5: the provincial government has been making that BC Ferries is independent,
24:55
Speaker 5: like obviously, both levels of government have been briefed on
24:58
Speaker 5: this and you know, didn't raise the red flags until
25:00
Speaker 5: there was the public blowback. So I don't think it
25:03
Speaker 5: changes that, but I think it, you know, I hope
25:05
Speaker 5: that it brings the conversation back down to earth. It
25:07
Speaker 5: doesn't mean, you know, we can't have a conversation about
25:09
Speaker 5: what we need to do better in the future so
25:11
Speaker 5: that we're not forced into a corner with problematic trading partners.
25:15
Speaker 5: But you know, hopefully it yeah brings the conversation back
25:20
Speaker 5: to reality a little bit instead.
25:21
Speaker 3: Of just yeah.
25:23
Speaker 2: It does make the federal transportationist or Christoph Freed and
25:25
Speaker 2: look a little bit weird coming out and hammering EB
25:28
Speaker 2: so hard in a letter and not and saying no
25:33
Speaker 2: federal funding should come from this agency in her letter
25:36
Speaker 2: and it turns out as actually financing the whole thing.
25:39
Speaker 2: That kind of undercuts her a bit. But it also
25:41
Speaker 2: puts the government, I think, in a tough position if
25:43
Speaker 2: it continues to come up in the House of Commons alley,
25:46
Speaker 2: because Canada has one hundred percent teriff on Chinese electric vehicles,
25:50
Speaker 2: like we have a precedent in our in our country
25:53
Speaker 2: of it's not good enough to be cheap and fast
25:57
Speaker 2: and come from China. If it disrupts into stroys and
26:00
Speaker 2: prevents us from having our own domestic industry and auto manufacturing,
26:05
Speaker 2: it almost feels like those two things kind of can
26:07
Speaker 2: be argued together.
26:08
Speaker 3: But does it matter at this point?
26:11
Speaker 2: Do you think it changes the political calculus in any
26:13
Speaker 2: way on the BC Ferri's decision.
26:16
Speaker 1: The opportunity that politicians have had on this issue was
26:22
Speaker 1: truly missed with Christoph Feland in that I think the
26:26
Speaker 1: letter was created to create that distance between the provincial
26:32
Speaker 1: BC government and the federal government to make sure that
26:37
Speaker 1: it seemed like they take no responsibility. What it could
26:41
Speaker 1: have also included was mention of you to a lot
26:45
Speaker 1: of what Jillian is saying, that we were kind of
26:48
Speaker 1: stuck in this position, there's nothing we can really do
26:50
Speaker 1: about it. David eb when he's taught, when he responds
26:52
Speaker 1: to this, his argument being that there are a number
26:56
Speaker 1: of things that this was the most cost effective, and
27:00
Speaker 1: that there were no Canadian bids on it, and so
27:04
Speaker 1: all of this is an exercise in saying that we
27:08
Speaker 1: don't have it right right now, but these are opportunities
27:12
Speaker 1: to fix it for generations to come. A lot of
27:14
Speaker 1: what Jillian so eloquently said so missed opportunity for those governments,
27:20
Speaker 1: but also like this is a moment for opposition to
27:23
Speaker 1: shine and shine they have because I've been so impressed
27:26
Speaker 1: by Harman Bangu on his response to this on the
27:29
Speaker 1: provincial side, where you know, he's saying that the government
27:33
Speaker 1: should immediately reconsider terms of the loan to protect Canadian
27:37
Speaker 1: jobs and businesses and security interests. And then my favorite
27:41
Speaker 1: one is Dan Alvis in the House of Commons said
27:44
Speaker 1: that the minister needs to grow a spine of Canadian
27:46
Speaker 1: made steel. I died so and he's just been on
27:51
Speaker 1: a great media tour on this and on touching on
27:56
Speaker 1: those exact points of we should be focused on Canadian jobs,
28:00
Speaker 1: we should be focused on Canadian economic opportunities, but perhaps
28:06
Speaker 1: we won't be able to fix it right now. There
28:09
Speaker 1: are some things though, that I'm not convinced that we
28:11
Speaker 1: can't fix right now, in that if we're so focused
28:14
Speaker 1: on Canadian jobs, but we don't have the ability to
28:17
Speaker 1: do that domestically geographically here, what's to say that we
28:20
Speaker 1: couldn't send apprentices elsewhere beyond our domestic jurisdiction to make
28:26
Speaker 1: sure that they're bringing back those skills to Canada for
28:30
Speaker 1: later generations too. So I think there are some small
28:34
Speaker 1: victories that could come of this for Canadian jobs, but
28:37
Speaker 1: we are in a situation where it kind of seems
28:40
Speaker 1: impossible to get them done here in Canada.
28:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jeff, what do you think?
28:46
Speaker 4: I am confused by the BC government's response to the
28:50
Speaker 4: fairies issue from day one. It's like they chose to
28:57
Speaker 4: take it all on themselves and put it all on
29:00
Speaker 4: cells and defend the issue as though it were their decision,
29:07
Speaker 4: as though when in fact there are all sorts of people,
29:13
Speaker 4: including the BC government, to have should be facing some
29:18
Speaker 4: accountability here BC government for the governance model that's put
29:24
Speaker 4: in place at BC Ferries which removes all control that
29:27
Speaker 4: government has over things like procurement, even though they get
29:32
Speaker 4: hammered for any decision BC Ferries makes the Government of Canada.
29:37
Speaker 4: The reason Christia Freeland came out with an angry letter
29:40
Speaker 4: pointing fingers at the BC government and trying to take
29:44
Speaker 4: a moral high ground because Canada has a Canadian shipbuilding
29:47
Speaker 4: strategy that was started in twenty ten that was supposed
29:50
Speaker 4: to have the outcome of making sure that every marine
29:54
Speaker 4: vessel that Canada needed was built in Canada. Clearly that
29:57
Speaker 4: didn't happen here. And I think there's also some accountability
30:00
Speaker 4: that needs to be accepted by the private shipbuilders in
30:05
Speaker 4: this country, Davy in the East and c Spend here
30:08
Speaker 4: out west. If you're a business development person working for
30:11
Speaker 4: either of those companies, you see the business opportunity of
30:16
Speaker 4: replacing super old BC Ferries coming down like coming down
30:21
Speaker 4: the pipe years ago. And you have an opportunity to
30:24
Speaker 4: scale up your operations so that you can make a
30:27
Speaker 4: bid on it, so that you can be considered and
30:31
Speaker 4: with a likely outcome of governments wanting to choose Canadian first.
30:35
Speaker 4: And then you don't do that. You don't do anything,
30:38
Speaker 4: just keep things the way they've been always. And then
30:41
Speaker 4: when the RFP comes out for building the new fairies,
30:46
Speaker 4: you don't even bid. And then kind of behind the scenes,
30:48
Speaker 4: you're saying, ah, look at the government, they screwed.
30:50
Speaker 3: This all up.
30:51
Speaker 4: And federal government's saying, I'll look at the BC government,
30:53
Speaker 4: they screwed this all up. There's a lot of screw
30:56
Speaker 4: ups all around on this one. It'd be good if
30:59
Speaker 4: it would have been smarter if the BC government hadn't
31:01
Speaker 4: owned it all by itself and had taken responsibility for
31:05
Speaker 4: its part and while clarifying to the public the complex
31:13
Speaker 4: nature of this and everyone else who should be held
31:15
Speaker 4: accountable for.
31:17
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, let's just get rid of the stupid structure
31:23
Speaker 2: of BC ferries.
31:24
Speaker 3: As my takeaway, we.
31:25
Speaker 2: Should have done it in twenty seventeen when the NDP
31:27
Speaker 2: took power. They didn't want to do it because of
31:30
Speaker 2: the financial implications that the minute you take.
31:32
Speaker 3: It over, the debt goes back on the provincial books.
31:35
Speaker 2: But good grief, Like the way all the politicians are
31:38
Speaker 2: contorting themselves into pretzel shapes here to get around decisions
31:42
Speaker 2: that they knew about and could have stopped if they
31:47
Speaker 2: wanted is ridiculous because it's not a private company making
31:53
Speaker 2: private decisions. It's public money from a federal and a
31:57
Speaker 2: provincial level, with politicians accountable to the federal you know,
32:01
Speaker 2: loan agency and the provincial ferry Corporation pretending that they
32:05
Speaker 2: don't have anything to do with anything that's happening. Will
32:07
Speaker 2: they appoint their boards and sign off on their decisions
32:10
Speaker 2: and defend them publicly.
32:11
Speaker 3: It's just it's crazy to me. I don't.
32:13
Speaker 2: I think the model of BC Fairies is outlived. It's
32:16
Speaker 2: its usefulness, which was a response to.
32:19
Speaker 3: The fast ferry fiasco.
32:21
Speaker 2: Fair enough, but like people want some accountability on fairies now,
32:26
Speaker 2: and like just bring it back into government, get it,
32:30
Speaker 2: get it over with it.
32:31
Speaker 4: That's a good point, Rob, make a good point. Rob.
32:33
Speaker 4: It's usually your line, but I'm taken it over. I
32:36
Speaker 4: agree with the the governance piece. I think you're absolutely
32:41
Speaker 4: right because it was one line in RFP they just
32:44
Speaker 4: needed to add one line to the RFP state owned
32:47
Speaker 4: enterprises are ineligible to bid on this RFP one sentence,
32:52
Speaker 4: and that that the crew over there couldn't do that
32:56
Speaker 4: or chose not to do that one sentence in RFP.
33:00
Speaker 4: I think there needs to be direct oversight of of
33:05
Speaker 4: that operations by the members of the Legislative Assembly of
33:10
Speaker 4: British Columbia.
33:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, some others like some maybe we make it a crown,
33:14
Speaker 2: or maybe we make it a If you made it
33:17
Speaker 2: a crown, you could put part of the money off
33:19
Speaker 2: into the kind of different counting pot of the budget.
33:22
Speaker 2: And anyways, it's got to be something to do, Like
33:24
Speaker 2: we can't just limp on through this ridiculous debate about
33:29
Speaker 2: fairies again and again. But you're on fire, all right,
33:36
Speaker 2: Let's put ferries aside. Our last topic here. I just
33:38
Speaker 2: want to talk about natural resource projects. There's a couple
33:40
Speaker 2: big ones that have kind of crossed the finish line
33:43
Speaker 2: here at the government, obviously the backdrop being it's embrace
33:47
Speaker 2: of the natural resource sector. We have the environmental certificate
33:52
Speaker 2: being issued for tech Resources Highland Valley Copper Mine extension
33:56
Speaker 2: near Logan Lake, and then I think like a week
33:59
Speaker 2: later all the permits from the province issued as well
34:03
Speaker 2: as part of this new kind of one permitting sort
34:06
Speaker 2: of thing. The Premier talked about making that a priority.
34:10
Speaker 2: And then that is the largest open pit copper mining Canada,
34:14
Speaker 2: and this is a billion and a half dollars a
34:15
Speaker 2: bunch of economic benefit there.
34:17
Speaker 3: And then also we have the very.
34:18
Speaker 2: First ellen G produced at ellen G Canada. A thirteen
34:24
Speaker 2: year journey from when Premier Christy Clark first talked about
34:28
Speaker 2: llen G way back when, through John Horgan getting it
34:31
Speaker 2: over the finish line with a deal with the tax breaks,
34:35
Speaker 2: and then on to David Ebe saying almost nothing I
34:40
Speaker 2: bought it actually coming into operation, and very little about
34:45
Speaker 2: Highland Pacific too.
34:47
Speaker 3: Highland Valley, Highland Valley, having valley is Highland Pacific is
34:50
Speaker 3: a golf course Highland Valley.
34:54
Speaker 2: As well, which I this is the question I have
34:56
Speaker 2: about the government's embrace of these big projects that they're
35:02
Speaker 2: wanting as well. But Ali, do you see any good
35:06
Speaker 2: bad disconnect here?
35:08
Speaker 3: I mean, it's good for the economy, but what do
35:11
Speaker 3: you make for me?
35:13
Speaker 1: This is a think on how the political spectrum has
35:18
Speaker 1: changed in BC. When we talk about the historical umbrella
35:25
Speaker 1: in which some of these things have achieved certain milestones.
35:28
Speaker 1: You talk about Christy Clark when she was the Premier
35:32
Speaker 1: and the leader of the BC Liberals and now this
35:35
Speaker 1: going through the NDP. Essentially, what I'm starting to think
35:40
Speaker 1: is that the political spectrum for the NDP has significantly changed.
35:47
Speaker 1: We've talked about this on the show quite a bit,
35:48
Speaker 1: where they're moving to the center. They're kind of seen
35:51
Speaker 1: as a economic party now, which used to totally be
35:57
Speaker 1: like the center right. I've Joe that even on a
36:01
Speaker 1: federal level, that Mark Cartney delivered a great conservative throne
36:07
Speaker 1: speech even and how even just like the Greens are
36:11
Speaker 1: no longer just on environmental policy, that there are so
36:14
Speaker 1: much more than that. And so what I think is
36:18
Speaker 1: very interesting about this topic and where the NDP government
36:22
Speaker 1: talks about it, it's that they are now bringing in
36:27
Speaker 1: more people that focus on the economy, the business community,
36:30
Speaker 1: talking about investment in BC into their party, and that
36:35
Speaker 1: they have that people generally now have a little bit
36:38
Speaker 1: more confidence in the NDP government as the economic party.
36:42
Speaker 1: And where does this leave the Conservatives and the million
36:45
Speaker 1: other political parties that we have on the center right,
36:47
Speaker 1: Because they can't monopolize the economic message anymore. So those
36:52
Speaker 1: are the things that I think about when we talk
36:54
Speaker 1: about these historic milestones for these projects. And I'm sure
36:59
Speaker 1: others will talk about how this is great for community
37:03
Speaker 1: and economy, but we have to also think about, at
37:06
Speaker 1: least in my mind, that essentially the ndper eating the
37:12
Speaker 1: center right lunch on.
37:13
Speaker 2: This, yeah, and where they would where they used to
37:17
Speaker 2: have been on opposing some of these projects. Although I
37:21
Speaker 2: don't know if John Horgan, you know, I think he
37:24
Speaker 2: actually was much more favorable than natural resource sector in general,
37:28
Speaker 2: even though at his time it was different. But Jillian,
37:31
Speaker 2: the Greens are the only ones left to raise concerns
37:34
Speaker 2: about these things. You know that there are two MLAs
37:38
Speaker 2: in the legislature. Are now the only ones to say.
37:41
Speaker 3: Way sec.
37:42
Speaker 2: You know, it's like fifteen hundred hectares of new land
37:45
Speaker 2: is being disturbed by this new mine extension.
37:48
Speaker 3: Are we sure about that? Is L and G.
37:50
Speaker 2: You know, actually it's going to contribute to our fossil
37:53
Speaker 2: fuels production and we're not going to hit our climates.
37:56
Speaker 2: It's like the political landscape realigned sod radically. They're they're
38:02
Speaker 2: all that's left sometimes to criticize some of these projects.
38:06
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think there's a couple of points. I
38:07
Speaker 5: think one you mentioned Horgan. I think like what Ali
38:12
Speaker 5: said is super poignant, and I think that this is
38:15
Speaker 5: really his legacy, Like he really changed what like the
38:20
Speaker 5: NDP was from when what they were in opposition, and
38:24
Speaker 5: I think you know, when you're in opposition, they were
38:26
Speaker 5: in opposition for so long, you kind of just get
38:28
Speaker 5: into a pattern where you're just criticizing everything government does.
38:31
Speaker 5: And I think that's kind of where they were at
38:33
Speaker 5: with a lot of those issues, because we had seen
38:34
Speaker 5: in previous iterations where they opposed the carbon tax and
38:38
Speaker 5: that kind of a thing, where dix And and Horgan
38:41
Speaker 5: had supported the pipelines and things like that before. I
38:46
Speaker 5: think that a lot of their environmental advocacy was really
38:50
Speaker 5: sort of like about trying to figure out what was
38:53
Speaker 5: the winning coalition going to be for them, and in
38:55
Speaker 5: the end it wasn't because they weren't. They haven't been
38:59
Speaker 5: able to get rid of the Greens. The Greens have
39:01
Speaker 5: been able to hold onto their seats for a couple
39:03
Speaker 5: of cycles, but that also still hasn't threatened the ndypea's
39:06
Speaker 5: ability to form government. So I think that they're sort
39:09
Speaker 5: of able to embrace these projects with a little bit
39:11
Speaker 5: more of political confidence. Right now. We'll see down the road,
39:19
Speaker 5: you know, if some of these projects, if we have
39:20
Speaker 5: another Mount Pauli, if we have you know, people's drinking
39:23
Speaker 5: water threatened, if you know L and G. There's more
39:27
Speaker 5: studies that come out that show that it's it's worse
39:30
Speaker 5: than some of its proponents claim. For the for climate,
39:36
Speaker 5: if that starts to sort of be loom larger in
39:39
Speaker 5: the public consciousness. But right now, I feel like Allie's right,
39:42
Speaker 5: it's kind of working for them, and.
39:45
Speaker 3: Are they embracing it?
39:46
Speaker 2: Jillian, Like, like I kind of wonder, Like you know,
39:49
Speaker 2: the Highland Valley thing happens. Government times it so that
39:53
Speaker 2: it that the premiere is up before it's announced, so
39:57
Speaker 2: he never even gets to speak to celebrating the environmental
40:01
Speaker 2: certificate being put out, which I thought was interesting. There's
40:06
Speaker 2: no events, there's no ribbon cuttings, there's no handshakes, there's
40:10
Speaker 2: no ground turnings. I have attended press conferences where government
40:15
Speaker 2: ministers gather everyone together to just like unveil a new
40:19
Speaker 2: slide on a playground.
40:21
Speaker 3: For God's sake.
40:21
Speaker 2: The costs like you know, a few hundred dollars. Here's
40:24
Speaker 2: a grant for a cheese festival in Comas. Like here
40:27
Speaker 2: we are at one point five billion dollar mining a
40:30
Speaker 2: you know, expansion, and a forty billion dollar LNG facility
40:34
Speaker 2: with the largest private project in the country's history, and
40:39
Speaker 2: the government there's where is it? Where is the leading
40:42
Speaker 2: into it? I guess is my question about it. I
40:44
Speaker 2: don't know if you see any Jillian display.
40:46
Speaker 5: Well, I thought that Premier's comments seemed the most excited
40:50
Speaker 5: about LNG that he ever has this week.
40:54
Speaker 1: So we'll see.
40:54
Speaker 6: And I wonder if the the the attempts from Alberta
41:01
Speaker 6: Premier Smith to put the lack of another oil pipeline
41:06
Speaker 6: on eb might.
41:07
Speaker 5: Give him more impetus to more openly and publicly embrace
41:11
Speaker 5: some of these projects that aren't an oil pipeline. I
41:14
Speaker 5: think that might help kind of like muddy the narrative
41:17
Speaker 5: a little bit and get him out of the corner
41:19
Speaker 5: that she's trying to pain him in.
41:21
Speaker 6: So we'll see.
41:22
Speaker 5: But yeah, he's I think Dix is going up there,
41:24
Speaker 5: but the Premiere is not, although he does kind of
41:26
Speaker 5: look like he needs a break, like we were talking
41:27
Speaker 5: about before, Jeff.
41:30
Speaker 4: What do you think, well, before I talked about these issues.
41:33
Speaker 4: I just checking out a news feed here because I
41:35
Speaker 4: thought Premier eb was at the launch of L and
41:40
Speaker 4: G Canada the first shipment or first production and interior
41:44
Speaker 4: Health CEO steps down after closure of the Colonna Pediatric Unit, so.
41:50
Speaker 2: Found early as was being called for because he was
41:54
Speaker 2: about to retire.
41:55
Speaker 3: Anyways, Yeah, it's interesting.
41:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, we talked about healthcare early in the show and
41:58
Speaker 4: government struggle on that front, and here's another sign that
42:02
Speaker 4: it continues to struggle on the issue of the economic
42:08
Speaker 4: development projects moving forward. Look, Canada is facing hard times.
42:13
Speaker 4: Hard times is when the economy shrinks, and there's the
42:18
Speaker 4: latest figures out of the Government of Canada today is
42:22
Speaker 4: that the economy is shrinking. And here you have the
42:27
Speaker 4: and that's healthcare and education. When economy is shrink that's jobs,
42:32
Speaker 4: that's all the things, that's housing, that's all the things
42:36
Speaker 4: that we say is important. And so I hear you
42:38
Speaker 4: have a government in British Columbia that's saying we're going
42:42
Speaker 4: to lean into economic development and LNG. That's l G
42:47
Speaker 4: Canada's point four point increase to Canada's GDP, which doesn't
42:51
Speaker 4: sound like much, but it's immense CEE listens is coming in.
42:55
Speaker 4: We wood fiber is coming in. Those will add to
42:59
Speaker 4: be economic strength and HVC Highland Valley Copper full disclosure
43:04
Speaker 4: to the listeners. I do some consulting work with Tech Resources,
43:08
Speaker 4: who are the proponent of the MIND but that was many,
43:12
Speaker 4: many years of consultation, going through a full environmental assessment process,
43:16
Speaker 4: first nations largely on site or at least not opposed.
43:21
Speaker 4: And Robbie raised the question of Island Valley Copper and
43:24
Speaker 4: why wouldn't the Premier get out and celebrate it. It's
43:27
Speaker 4: because the company, now that it has permits and authorizations
43:31
Speaker 4: and is through the EA approval, needs to go to
43:33
Speaker 4: its board and make a final investment decision where they
43:36
Speaker 4: agree on whether to go forward or not. And I
43:39
Speaker 4: would expect that if they make that decision, that you
43:43
Speaker 4: will see the Premier out in front and celebrating with
43:47
Speaker 4: the company because critical minerals is going to be a
43:49
Speaker 4: big part of BC's economy for a long time to come.
43:54
Speaker 4: And so you know this is at the end of
43:57
Speaker 4: the day politically, this is the Premier being able to
43:59
Speaker 4: go out and say the talk of expediting economic development
44:06
Speaker 4: projects or getting behind them, we're making progress and it's
44:11
Speaker 4: not just talk. We're starting to build, build, build, as
44:14
Speaker 4: our Prime Minister likes to say.
44:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll be interesting to see what's next. And many
44:21
Speaker 2: other projects on that list that the Premier put out
44:24
Speaker 2: in February. I think this was pretty far down the track,
44:29
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, but some of the other ones we'll
44:33
Speaker 2: see if they get fast tracked, and we'll see Bill
44:35
Speaker 2: fifteen comes into play at any point and moving projects along.
44:38
Speaker 2: There's a lot of different ways the government could lean
44:41
Speaker 2: into this.
44:41
Speaker 3: If they wanted.
44:42
Speaker 2: All right, thank you Panel for walking us through so
44:45
Speaker 2: many interesting topics this week, and thank you for listening.
44:48
Speaker 3: Make sure you.
44:49
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the podcast and to our show on YouTube
44:53
Speaker 2: and various other ways you can get the show, and
44:56
Speaker 2: we'll be back next week with all the latest NBC politics.
44:59
Speaker 3: Here uh Political Capital