Latest / HR Spot / Episode #72 - The Employee Isn’t Working Out — Now What?

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Episode #72 - The Employee Isn’t Working Out — Now What? · HR Spot

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Michaels, welcome back to HR Spot, your podcast for all HR professionals, but also business owners, right?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we have the famous Gary Nye with us again today.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And infamous or famous?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Famous.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what are we talking about today today, Gary?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy, Linda.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: What are we going to talk about today?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think um, I think you should start off with the phone call uh that we get all the time, you know, these messages that we get.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not gonna give it away.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna let you jump right into it.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh our our title for today is the employee isn't working out.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now what?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now what?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is uh basically what business owners should do before they fire someone, right?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I both know we get this phone call on a regular basis.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, they're not working out.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I need to fire them, right?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about this today.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you do when somebody just isn't working out?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe their performance isn't where it needs to be, maybe their behavior is creating problems already.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've coached them repeatedly and nothing has changed.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: When do you coach?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: When do you document?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: When do you put somebody on a performance improvement plan?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when do you finally say, uh, we're done?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: We and that's all we can do, and it's time to move on.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's great.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's one of those things, right?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: The manager knows what's going on, the owner knows, other employees probably already know, but somehow the employee just doesn't get it that they're, you know, this is probably where it's gonna lead.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with the real problem.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so the obvious question when an owner says, Hey, this employee isn't working out, what do you ask them?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, usually our first question back to them is, What is not working?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's important, right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't like their attitude.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's not good enough, or they're just not a good fit.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's not helpful either.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what's actually happening.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are they missing deadlines?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are customers complaining?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are they making errors?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are they not meeting sales expectations?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are they consistently late?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are they creating conflict with coworkers?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are they ignoring their manager?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Those are things that we can actually address because they're very, very specific.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you're removing the emotion, hopefully, from the actual performance piece.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I would encourage everyone listening to do this.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of saying Gary has a bad attitude, sorry, Gary, yeah, we can say John has interrupted his supervisor three times during Monday's meeting.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: He refused to complete the assignment he was given and told another employee that the manager didn't know what she was doing.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's very specific.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now we have something to work with, and you can actually visualize everything that I just described.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right, that's great.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So performance or behavior, are performance problems and behavior problems, are they handled differently?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the typical lawyer answer it depends, right?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if someone doesn't know how to do something, that might be a training issue.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they know how to do it and they consistently choose not to do it, that's a different story, right?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So here's a simple way to think about it.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do it versus you won't do it.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if they can't do it, then ask, did we train them?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Were the expectations clear?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Did do they have the resources available?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is the workload reasonable?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do they understand what success looks like?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if we've done all those things and they still aren't doing the job, now we may have a performance problem.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what about behavior?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Behavior can be even more damaging, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have somebody who is technically very good at their job, but they destroy the team around them.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about that in our uh toxic employee episode.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then being like your highest producer doesn't give you permission to treat everyone like crap.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my pet peeves, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: No one is untouchable either.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, period.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so part three the management problem, nobody wants to admit, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So here's one that probably makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how often is the employee problem actually really a management problem?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, that's a good question, Gary, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, more often than people want to admit.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, we can't tell you how many times that we've been brought into a situation where the manager says, This employee has been a problem forever.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: We hear that probably at least once a week.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what have you done about it?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing about it?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've talked about it.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, when?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did you tell them?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we told them they need to do better.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what does better mean?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's where everything starts falling apart.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Managers avoid difficult conversations because they're uncomfortable.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of dealing with a small problem today, they wait and wait and wait.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And six months later, they're furious and ready to terminate the employee.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: But from the employee's perspective, this is the first time that they're hearing that their job's in jeopardy.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that's not fair to the employee either.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about it, you know, no one likes surprises, and it should never be a surprise, right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: You should have conversations, so nothing like that should be a surprise.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and good HR isn't about preventing companies from firing people, it's about making sure that people know what's expected of them and have a reasonable opportunity to meet those expectations, yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, so like we said, you know, no surprises.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So about having the conversation.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say I'm the manager and I've identified the problem.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do you recommend I do tomorrow?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Have the conversation, Gary.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So don't wait till their annual performance review.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Don't wait another three months.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sit down and say, I want to talk about your performance.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: We've had several deadlines missed over the last month, and you can give exact dates if you want.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's even better.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's affecting the team.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure we're clear about what needs to change, then be very specific.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about here's what happened, here's what was expected, here's what needs to happen going forward, and here's when we're going to check back in.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds simple.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Should they talk about how it makes them feel or what they heard from other people?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or what?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think they should talk about?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it simple, Gary.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but simple doesn't mean easy, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of managers avoid these conversations because they don't want the conflict.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: But avoiding the conversation doesn't eliminate the conflict, it actually makes it worse.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, it does make it worse, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: By having those conversations, it's easier to follow up next time, so it's not the surprise.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow up, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So here's one of my favorites, part five.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Document, document, document.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the word every HR person lives, breathes, and preaches.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Documentation.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is your absolute favorite.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you I think you talked about this at one of the events that we did together.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, and and here's what I want business owners to understand.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Documentation isn't about creating this ginormous file.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So someday you can fire somebody.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually about creating a clear record of what happened and what you did about it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have a coaching conversation today, document it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be five pages.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Put the date, put the issue that we discussed, put the expectation that was communicated, put the employee's response, uh follow-up date, and we're done.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: What about an email or a text message or team's message or what about those?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do those help?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's still part of the documentation, right?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So after a conversation, a manager might send an email, hey, thanks for meeting me today.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: As as we discussed, the expectation going forward is dot dot dot, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then that that's clarity for everybody.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Good to know.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, documentation, documentation, and then more documentation, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can't have too much.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: You really you can't.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: It um it can't it can't hurt, right?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So going on to the next one is what do you think?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this is one of my favorite, not favorites, but do you need a pip, a performance improvement plan?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's kind of dreaded, and everybody uses it a little bit differently.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So does every uh struggling employee need uh an improvement plan?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, and you know that's what the misconception is.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: A pip can be a very useful tool when you genuinely believe the employee can improve and you want to create a structured opportunity for them to do so.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: But don't use a pip just to check a box, right?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So a good pip should answer four questions what needs to improve, what does success look like?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: How long does the employee have to improve, and then what happens if they don't improve?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um 14 days, 30 days, uh 60 days, 90 days?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a lot depends on the problem.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: You don't automatically need 90 days.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: If the issue is something that can't be reasonably demonstrated in 30 days, you may not need to address three months or or need three months to evaluate it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to pick a time frame that makes sense for the job and the actual performance issue.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: What about you know, you have 14 days to complete this?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is there a minimum?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, it sounds like a reasonable expectation of 14 days to complete this assignment.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, depending on what, like you said, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: The time frame of the job and the performance issue, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: If it's something that needs new training, that well, 14 days may not be enough, but 90 days might be too much.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you gotta you gotta be smart about it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when is enough enough, I guess.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So how how do I know when I've done enough to make a decision?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's the hardest question, Gary.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would look at a couple of things.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Did I provide clear expectations?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And did I tell the employee there was a problem?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And did I give them a reasonable opportunity to correct it?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Did I give them the training and the support they needed?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Did I follow my own policies and practices?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then have I been consistent with how I've treated others in similar situations?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that has come up that requires additional review before making a decision, such as a complaint, maybe a protected leave, an accommodation request, maybe a workers' comp issue, or maybe any other legally protected situation, if you've worked through those questions and the employee still isn't meeting expectations, then termination may be the appropriate business decision.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now we're coming down to the brass tax, right?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: That might be that might be the decision.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So what about a mistake?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: The biggest mistake may be waiting too long.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do you see with that?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the biggest mistake might be with that?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, waiting is the biggest mistake without question.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: They know someone isn't working out, three months go by, then six months, sometimes a year.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And meanwhile, everybody else is watching.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: All your good employees are thinking, why am I working so hard when nobody holds that person accountable?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's when a performance issue involving one employee becomes a culture issue affecting 10 employees.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is definitely impacts your culture.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then eventually the other good employees they'll leave too, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: They've seen enough and they see what's been tolerated.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that part makes me sad, and I'm sure I can speak for you.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: It makes us sad, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's part of the business's underestimate.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: There is a cost to actually determinate someone, but there's an enormous cost to not dealing with poor performance.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: So oddly enough, I use this today, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Rip off the band-aid.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you don't feel like, well, I can get two more weeks out of that person while I you know look for someone, or I can deal with deal with it for another month while we kind of wait for the next assignment or something, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's not always the best case scenario, right?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: You just need to not wait, rip it off.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Rip it off.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: You might take some hair with it, but rip it off.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's all right.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the hair will grow back, the skin will grow back, but you just need to kind of rip it off.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a quick scenario for you.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Let's give everybody out there listening this little this little idea here.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got an employee.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Say they've been here three years.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, relatively speaking, have been really good over that time.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: They've been great over the past six months, though.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Performance has slipped a little bit, maybe some attendance issues, deadlines aren't being made on time.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Manager talked to them a couple of times, you know, kind of in passing, nothing formally documented.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then the manager comes to you and then says, Linda, I want to fire Gary Friday.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do you say?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've heard this scenario 12 million times, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: 12 million, 12 million times.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And my response is, well, Mr.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Manager, not so fast.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: First, let's understand what actually changed.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's look at what conversations actually happened.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's review the employees' history.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's make sure there aren't any other factors we need to consider, and then we can decide whether the appropriate next step is coaching, maybe a written corrective action, maybe a pip or termination.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when that comes to us, are you trying to say HR isn't automatically saying you can or you can't fire them?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, you know, that HR is not here to exist to constantly say no, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our job is to help leadership understand the risk, make a thoughtful decision, and handle it correctly.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if there is zero documentation and you want to fire them on Friday, okay, let's talk about the risk.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Here's all the stuff, let's put it on the table, and here's the risk that goes with it.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's super important.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, if managers, leaders, owners thought about it in the perspective of, huh, what's the risk if I do this?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not just this person's pissing me off.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I want to terminate them.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's the risk?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do I have all these things in place?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think a manager would maybe reconsider a lot of times if they they really think about the risk, what the what they have in place compared to what the risk would be of terminating them.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: They might think again before they just are so quick to ask, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So going on to the last section here, let's leave everybody with some things.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you come up with five things that a leader, manager, supervisor, owner should do before terminating?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can come up with at least five, if not more.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but we'll give you five because it's easier to do that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so before you terminate someone for performance, I want you to ask yourself number one, have we clearly identified the problem?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, have we clearly communicated the expectations?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Number three, have we documented what happened?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Number four, have we given the employee an appropriate opportunity to improve?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And lastly, have we looked for any legal policy or consistency or retaliation concerns that need to be reviewed before making the final decision?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's five really good ones.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we could probably come up with 50 or 500, but those are five ones that we should, we should, you should ask for or ask before just coming up with that decision, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think everybody, if you're listening and you realize you can't answer those questions before terminating someone, again, clearly defined problem, communicated expectations, and they got to be clear.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Document, document, document.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Did the person get appropriate amount of opportunity to improve?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And is there any legal reason policy-wise or any other that you need to look at before making that final decision?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't answer those questions, hey, write them down, print them out.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you can't answer those, you might need to pause, but the press the pause button, click, you need to hold off, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's your answer, Gary, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't answer those questions, yeah, that's your answer.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then you you probably have more work to do first.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, you might have to start from scratch, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have those things, and I think we deal with managers like this all the time, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you ask them, hey, you don't have any of this stuff, you're gonna have to start you can't just decide determinate.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you obviously you can, but that's a question about the risk, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So start with those questions.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if you need to start the process now and you're already upset, then you can speed along.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And trust me, if those people have those problems, they'll usually repeat them and it'll go quick.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you probably need to start over.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So here's what I want business owners and managers to remember addressing poor performance isn't mean.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Allowing poor performance to continue isn't kind either.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not fair to your high performers, it's not fair to the managers who consistently compensate for it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, it's not fair to the employees who have been clearly told that they're not meeting expectations.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Have the conversation early, be specific, document it, give people the opportunity to succeed.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when you've done all those things and it's clear that the relationship isn't working, then make your decision.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because avoiding the problem usually doesn't make it disappear.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the worst decision, is not making a decision.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it costs more money doing it that way.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for joining us on another episode of HR Spot.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a business owner out there and you're dealing with an employee situation and you're thinking, oh my gosh, I have absolutely no idea what to do next.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're here for, right?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: We help you navigate this complicated matter.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: We are your HR partner, and so we want you to focus on your business and let us handle some of the crappy stuff.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um, as Gary says, reach out to us.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do they get a hold of us, Gary?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they can email lynda at lyndaazhrhub.com, Gary at Gary at azhrhub.com.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: They can go to our website, they can get our phone numbers, they can call us, they could go to our LinkedIn, they can go to our Facebook, send us a message, give us some questions, download this, listen to it, share it with all your friends, your family, your kids, your kids' friends, and kids' families.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that'd be great.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Send us a question because we want to hear what you think.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: If this is horrible, tell us it was horrible.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: If it was great, tell us it was great.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ask us a question.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're here to help.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time, and we look forward to next week's episode.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.