Latest / Automated with Brian Heater / Dr. Jan Zizka on Brightpick and the Future of Warehouse Automation

Transcript

Dr. Jan Zizka on Brightpick and the Future of Warehouse Automation · Automated with Brian Heater

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Rick Picker is probably the most groundbreaking product in fulfillment over several years.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen simulation a few days ago that was 50,000 lines per hour.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of want to be the dominant technology.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm tiny technology sour, like I'm not going to influence, it's not impactful.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now in average, I think we have something like 53 robots per warehouse.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like the end game for you is being the end-to-end solution for the warehouse.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And for example, the feed we have warehouse in Denver, they are running kind of light out night chip.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Why call it actually one-man warehouse who is managing the robots and ensuring the warehouse works well?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: So from this viewpoint, I think we are not that far.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying one-person solution, which means somebody's there as a manager.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Does that really displace all of those existing roles?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Does it make new roles?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I would say um I was not at Logimat, but even if I was at Logitamat, I would not have seen Grip Picker.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was after disappointment, you know, because you know suddenly I cannot show my new toy.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's proving that we have something very special.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're not admitting guilt, but you know, you have to deal with all the arguments show that that you know we are on a pretty good trajectory to resolve this very quickly, so I'm I'm not worried about another episode of Automated.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Brian Heater.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I am the managing editor at the Association for Advancing Automation.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Our guest this week is Jan Jishka, the founder and CEO of Brightpick.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: They both have a fascinating conversation, which we will go into here.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much to them.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, thanks to you as always for tuning in.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to like and subscribe and review.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Check out our newsletter and our news site, both over at automated.fm.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now please enjoy this conversation with Jan.
• 2:03
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• 2:13
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• 2:18
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• 2:21
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• 2:30
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• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh like I think when you get when you Google your name, there's a there's another there's another individual with your name that tends to come up in the search results, uh, the first several.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think it's you know, it's the um old Czech warrior, you know, one of the best in Europe.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I always tell that uh, you know, hopefully there's some connection, and I'm as good in strategy as him, you know, so hopefully that should be the connection there.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't know a lot about him.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I actually, you know, I I was I was doing a little research on you, so I figured I would do a little research on him at the same time.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the best I can tell, like I think like maybe an equivalent people would be familiar with it would be like naming your child Alexander the Great.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, something similar, remotely.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or Napoleon, just like a great, just you know, one of the one of the great one of the great stretches.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh were you named directly for this uh this this Czech uh military hero?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you know the my grand uh father and my father had the same name, so I would say it wasn't kind of obvious choice, I I guess.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, it it works in in your in smaller Central Europe, it works, you know, people always joke about it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say it's it's somehow useful.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the second joke is always my hair, you know.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So like I I I try, and people remember me sometimes.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't gonna get to the hair, but yeah, can you turn like slightly to your left?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was gonna ask if this was sort of like uh, you know, I I know obviously like hairstyles tend to be like a little bit different continent to continent, but if this is also a little bit out there um where you're from as well.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: I would say no, this is maybe more connected to electronics, music, uh and and all of these.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was always a little more to you know, how's techno drum and bass, you know, all of this, you know, so it's more like you know, a little unusual style of maybe even dressing and so on, you know.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was even trying DJing a little and and you know, dancing and so on, so it's much more connected.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, I was you know playing soccer, uh, so I would say it's you know partially referenced to you know a few players potentially.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, like soccer, like obviously, you know, playing soccer or playing football where you're from very much does not make you an outcast.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: But but it sounds like you know, in terms of the the career that you followed, uh, you know, obviously, you know, you went into robotics, you're you know, you've you've now founded uh two large robotics companies, that there wasn't really much of a path for you in Slovakia.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that fair to say?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it's interesting.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: In Slovakia, we manufacture most cars per capita in the world.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like a small Detroit.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's Volkswagen, Kia, Peugeot, you know, like seriously a lot of them, plus entire tier twos, tier one, tier two suppliers and all of these.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say probably there would be a trajectory to have maybe potentially more like a small integrator helping automotive companies.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but yes, I would say the trajectory was more into academia and you know, partially MIT.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And somehow I realized that I I would rather do entrepreneurship than writing papers, you know, papers where you know you feel it may be impactful, but usually it's not, you know.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say there's always a huge value into you know these, and but I always felt like I'm more, maybe a little more hands-on and kind of I I just yes, I want to have that impact, you know.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so the path into academia was clear, or the path into to MIT was pretty clear for you at that point.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, you know, it was still kind of lucky occasion, you know, like the professor Ramesh Raskar from uh MIT Media Lab, you know, he was always my hero, you know, without knowing him personally.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and it was just coincidence, you know, he was coming to Slovakia, you know, really coincidence.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: His wife is Slovak, you know, so so it was pure coincidence.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I was not sleeping like 80 hours uh or something like that just to prepare some cool demos for him.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: And when he saw it, he was like, Yang, you have to come, you know, through my lap.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that was, you know, I would say, I'm not sure if the trajectory was clear, but yes, I I go there.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, so uh so you're gonna have to I I need more of the story.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So he he was visiting his wife is from there, and the two of you happened to cross paths while he was in your relatively small country.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is that exactly pure coincidence, you know, from this viewpoint.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm I mean, were you, you know, you you had reached out to him previously, though?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, never.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like it was the very first time we saw each other.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and you know, honestly, you know, I was of course reading and following all the papers, but he was always the superstar.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was a crazy coincidence.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my superstar professor coming to my university.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I had seriously just three days to prepare something.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I was not sleeping, I was you know, super tired, but I prepared you know two cool demos, uh, you know, all connected to you know cameras and some some learning and all of this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then yes, he loved it and he invited me to MIT.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that's probably the path for people like me, you know, who probably in the beginning were not maybe ambitious enough from some viewpoint.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I remember how how you know going to Bratislava, you know, capital city of Slovakia, five million people, that was already kind of a big step for me because I'm I'm from a small city in the middle of Slovakia, so that was already a big step for me.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then I never, you know, when I saw younger people how how they were ambitious, you know, going to even maybe high school or you know, to whatever Oxford or you know, another UK, US university.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I never had that ambition before.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why exactly.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe it's also connected to you know parents and you know how and maybe even even kind of you know, Czechoslovakia and their history, you know.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So in 1990, we kind of you know flipped to the other side or how to tell it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh, you know, I would say politics is not important here, it's much more about kind of that ambition or and entrepreneurship.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: I still tell you know one story how my father he wanted to start uh his own company, like track company.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember, you know, he called entire family to kitchen, kind of telling his plan.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was like maybe 10 or whatever, I don't remember.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember my mother kind of crying, you know, that it's too risky to start, you know, their own business.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say there was some legacy, you know, coming from this, you know, old school system, and entrepreneurship was not that common, you know.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I think yeah, maybe maybe I should be more ambitious in the beginning.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean I think we can talk about this without we can talk about politics without being political.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think what you're pretty clearly getting at here is moving from maybe like a more Soviet model into um into capitalism.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like literally into venture capitalism, and this idea of um just going out on your own and building your own thing in the way that you've been able to do it subsequently, like was not a clear path for you.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think you know, probably it was for me a combination of you know smaller city and and kind of I think even the culture in in Slovakia and I would say in the entire region is that you are more like humble and and maybe kind of you know making sure that that you you do things well, but you know, maybe you are not overconfident or something like that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it's partially culture and partially this history of you know people had simply not enough uh chances, challenges on the table because of the system, and it took I would say uh maybe 10 to 15, maybe even 20 years to really at least feel that yes, you you you start your own startup, you get funding, you know, all of this, it it was kind of booting, you know, serious, seriously.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it was probably around 20 years, and still, still is not probably Silicon Valley, you know, obviously.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: But but yeah, yeah, at least you you have local investors.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it is getting there, you know, it is it is it is nice.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what on the other side, what is interesting, now you see that I would say in average, you see that people are more eager to get some success than uh in other countries.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for example, I would if I would compare Slovakia and Germany, I would say people are more eager to to do something.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because I think they haven't seen that success so far.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, salaries are a little lower.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: They're trying to, you know, somehow hold their opportunity in the end.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, German Germany's a whole nother conversation and something that I I need to uh talk to some.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I need to talk some to some more uh folks out from that scene because obviously, well, as of this conversation, um I'm gonna be heading out to Switzerland.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, uh Zurich is is huge, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Out there.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you know, I I I believe I'm gonna spend a little time in in the Paris, you know, they've got a big tech community out there.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm I'm surprised there isn't a larger and I don't know if you have any like any insight into this, but that there isn't a larger like robotics community in existence in Germany given their manufacturing background.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I would say Munich is you know very exceptional.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a ton of companies.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think they are doing pretty well.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Partially, I feel that still it's um every European is simply not as ambitious as let's call it Silicon Valley guy.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like simply that's not comparable, you know.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would say that that there people are more risk-error and and and and uh errors, and and you know, it's somehow I don't know how to how to tell it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh, you know, I I compare it to do you want to manufacture BMW, you know, kind of let's call it you know, fancy car.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, being German is probably a good idea because you know you can ensure the quality, you just kind of follow the rules, you just do it very, very well.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: But it's probably not the same as starting startup where you have to sometimes cut the corners, you have to be imperfect to be fast enough.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, all of that simply it is not compatible, it's not fully compatible.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that's that engineering still requires all of this.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's some kind of balance.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can't have both in the same time, I think.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that, you know, and I'm saying this, I'm I'm from uh Silicon Valley, so you know, but it'll be interesting to see how this uh has shifted and continues to shift.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think um, you know, that probably COVID played a bit of a role.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think um there's been some decentralization.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot more people this probably plays a little bit less when you're actually building like physical robots.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: But in a lot of the tech industry, more people are working from home.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, obviously there's a lot happening geopolitically that we don't have to go into.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: But Silicon Valley has continued to be such a big magnet because that is the place where all of those people go to.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you continue to go there.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're in you're in Austin now.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, like Austin has become a hub as well.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you you you traveled for an education and you like clearly, at least, you know, at that point, you didn't come back to Europe to start your companies.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you know, like formerly, yes, you know, like it was founded in back in Slovakia, I would say.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was, you know, now when I take a look back, I think you know, probably it would be better if I would stay in the US, you know, longer or have to tell it and more.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so this is an interesting point, right?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because you because because you uh um at least one of your co-founders you've known since you were like a child.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, yes.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so you know it's interesting uh you know story for kind of all co-founders together, you know.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: So first of all, I think Branny was actually the first one.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: He was my elementary school friend, you know, and and and colleague.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Second, Michael, he's the reason why I learned programming, because you know we attended these uh math Olympiads, you know, the contest, you know, and it was just regional or something, but you know, I was good, he was good, he was probably better than me.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we were like, I don't know, 10, 12, I don't remember exactly, but I learned he knows programming already, you know.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I was almost angry, like, how is that possible?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I learned programming over the holidays uh on my own.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I have found a book below you know television, you know, in a drawer, asking my father, like, there's a book, you know, it tells basic, it's programming language.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know something?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And my father, no, you know, I just purchased the book, but I have no idea.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: He just had a basic book lying around the house.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we had back then, uh, I think we had this first that Atari, then Commodore, you know, maybe oh yeah.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the Commodore, like, you know, you like the those those kinds of computers, like you still had to actually like program them to a certain extent.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I would say, you know, my father was, I would say, you know, still technical, not really programmer or something like that, but you know, very like I would say, in terms of uh you know, like a mechanical engineering, electrical engineer, he was still pretty good, you know.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say I was lucky enough to have access to all of these, you know, that the that the that was true and important very but ultimately I learned over the holidays, you know, that basic book on my own.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: So then then you know, when I met Michael, I can tell him I know programming too, you know.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So he's he's now director of artificial intelligence, you know, so that's kind of a cool story.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then with Thomas, CTO, uh during my PhD, I was advising his bachelor thesis and master thesis.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it was clear that the guy is super, super cool.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like the the 3D scanner he created uh during bachelor thesis, I would say it was already world-class, you know, back then.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, it was not commercialized, it was a prototype, but the quality was exceptional.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then we continue to work together, and it's just you know, very interesting.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like every single time when we have any interaction together, it's you know, I like to tell like one plus one is five when I work with Thomas, because it is seriously very like how to tell like it's it's complementary and and we can challenge each other, it just like anything.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's greater than the sum of its parts, is what they say.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So so so uh is it Photonio?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Photonio?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, Photonio, yes, exactly.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: That so that was incorporated in Slovakia?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the idea was that we we invented the idea of this 3D scanning, and you know, it was a very special moment, you know, something that you will never ever forget, you know, like like you know, real like goosebumps, you know, like Tomas, is this really working?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and and you you just feel that it's something special.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously, it was a very special moment, you know, in Matt and his life.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because like we did a ton of invention, but you just knew that this is somehow special.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, back then and even today, it was you know highest resolution, highest accuracy, 3D camera.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we were obviously considering like, okay, you know, maybe it could be in iPhone, sour, sorry, and that's already 12 years ago, you know, so like a long, long time ago, and and we knew that it's extremely you know, any any any sensing is really like you you are measuring photons, you know, ultimately, you know, that's what you are doing.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and this had like ultimate efficiency.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Every single photon was kind of used to get the best possible 3D information.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: So so you know, kind of how to thought it's it's ultimate method how to do it.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's simply no better method or how to tell you no, because when you are using every single photon, you know, there's no better way.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we decided to do fundraising.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um it took us some time, uh, but but we ultimately decided you could imagine back then in Central Europe asking for two million euros uh back then for silicon development was a little crazy.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like people are like, really?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Are you going to develop your own silicon out of Slovakia?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so nobody was making chips, like certainly not in Europe at the time.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Really, nobody's really making chips in Europe now.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, very few people outside.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know what is interesting, uh, Belgium and that that that region there that is that was and is still quite very strong.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this ASML.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: ARM is they ARM has some are they in also ARM that was UK and and maybe some Europe.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there is something, but it's it was more like many of those people they were developing tools for development of chips, and even today it's like that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, you know, ultimately we succeeded.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was it was super cool, you know, like we we got ultimately the best fan from Czech Republic, so local, but still, you know, it was one of the largest seed rounds back then.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it took us three years, almost four years, to develop that chip.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in the meantime, we developed you know, kind of scanner, so that means uh 3D camera that that is using multiple frames, you know.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we developed that one, but we were very successful.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so the revenue was you know, after zero, I think something like half a million uh 1.5 and 4 or something like that.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was really nicely growing.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're selling these cameras mostly to automotive, you know.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: That was kind of good choice for us back then in that given region because automotive was very strong, you know, a lot of tier one, tier two suppliers.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we started to sell that the 3D camera, 3D sensor, and it was, I would say, from my viewpoint, it was some kind of introduction of intelligent robotics from some viewpoint, you know, because it was always you know robotic eye for beanpicking or any other uh manipulation of objects.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because you know, before almost every single robot was fixed motions, you know, like welding, whatever.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like simply you you programmed the robot once, executing the same repeatable motions.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I so to be clear, when you say that you were selling it to auto manufacturers, do you mean you were selling it to the robots for the production process or that you were selling it for the actual cars themselves?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, okay, yes, production process.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, so and you are right, in many cases there was some kind of integrator in the middle who took that 3D camera and installed you know some object manipulation.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, uh uh feeding uh welding cells uh or or or milling machines, you know, any type of beam picking and object manipulation.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: And in automotive, it was super cool.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, sometimes you manipulate you know tiny objects, sometimes it's you know like a Whatever door, you know, something you know as big as car.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: So we developed an entire portfolio of scanners, starting with you know very small ones that were scanning this area up to four by three meters, you know, so huge, huge kind of entire car.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you could you could scan in free the entire car.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it was in still something like smaller scanners around 10 micrometers, bigger scanners, something like 100 micrometers.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: So still very, very accurate.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm not sure if I can tell it, but I think we helped.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: We at least helped to create these great robotic eyes.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think we we contributed to this one.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: We were probably after you know a few years, we were probably top three supplier of these cameras.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and then we also decided to develop software on top of it, so bean picking software itself, or we called it bean picking studio.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, in the meantime, you know, we grew almost to 200 people.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it was you know big company.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Always we were very global.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: We had sales in the US, in Europe.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh ultimately GM was the largest customer.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think now it's really like hundreds of bean pickings.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: It could be one of the largest installations of bean pickings in automotive for for one uh one automotive company.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yes, and then you know, two years ago, you know we were you know discussing with several people, but ultimately we we sold Photonio uh to Zebra Technologies.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that was kind of first exit uh we did.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was, you know, of course, very interesting.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some companies always had an interesting experience.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, you know, we had a ton of friends there.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: You could imagine that I'm not sure if I can tell it, but most of the people were my friends, you know.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So suddenly uh and they and they had more, I mean, you know, we you know, you don't have to go into it, but like they, you know, they they had purchased fetched and they had uh they had like robotics there and they were building that out at the time.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep, exactly.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, it was fitting their their you know, they have a ton of these uh barcode readers or QR code readers, scanners.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: So so it was very well fitting this direction of of advanced vision, and you know, they they are probably number one supplier, or I don't know, like top, top three, definitely.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the on the wrists, yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, yes, exactly.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: So they they they were digging deeper into 3D.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: So ultimately they created uh a center of excellence for 3D in Bratislava in in Slovakia.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: So from this viewpoint, you know, very nice story.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I really like it.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was one of the reasons why we actually selected them because it was clear they are going to invest in that direction.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, partially you are always optimizing you know amount of money you are getting, but partially, yes, I we were just looking for a great home for our friends and and colleagues.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you were, I mean, so we're we're talking uh the deal, the deal closes, the zebra deal closes into 2024, early 2025.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, obviously right pick at that point has already been around for three or four years.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um technically, I think a spin out uh of the other company, but you were you're already on to your other other thing.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it didn't really impact you that directly, that acquisition.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh great great timing.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's usually very difficult for people to understand what happened, but you you you you got it very well.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so in principle, I think two, three years before that, we we kind of seen that it's very difficult to do automotive, 3D scanners, and logistics in the same company, same, same team.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, even your sales guy, like you don't want sales guy to visit automotive and next time, you know, warehouse, you know, it just too configure.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me let me actually pause there.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So so so just just to be like entirely clear.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the the first product, the the the you know, the imaging product was uh a result of I mean the the two of you were working on you know analog, silicon, um it was imaging, and then you sort of ended up in robotics because of that breakthrough that you had.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you weren't necessarily roboticists at the time, but this thing that you created, you were selling to all of these robotics companies.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I would say partially, as you know, like I remember uh with Michael, you know, director of AI, uh, we constructed first robot when we had like 14, 15, maybe, and actually won, you know, in one one one competition there.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say we're always you can imagine computer vision and and machine learning is was always attached somehow to robotics.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say specifically me and Tomas, we are extremely holistic, you know, mechanical engineering, all of that.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say we're always very close, but you are you are completely right that we kind of selected, you know, in the beginning, seriously, we were considering that you know, we talked to Apple, Facebook, and other companies, you know, maybe it's VR, AR, GLASIS, you know, there are so many applications for 3D sensors, but ultimately, uh, yes, maybe again, you know, somehow limited ambition from some viewpoint.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: We have seen that automotive close to us, you know, ability to sell to it and so on.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: So we we have selected specifically that it has to it it is industrial automation, maybe not only automotive, you know, general manufacturing, anything, but it has to be for us kind of more tangible industrial world.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say probably it was a good idea from some of you, but no, yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is this is where some of my background comes in because you know I've been covering consumer electronics for a really long time.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: There are all of these, there was a what was the name of the Israeli company that Apple bought for its camera?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Was it Reali or something along those lines?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: One was maybe Prime Saints, and but I think the most originally Kinect, I think Microsoft.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Microsoft, yeah, and then they turned it into Face.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so all all of these like technologies that became things like like uh like Face Unlock, FaceTime, Connect, the 3D sensing, these are all not all of them, but the vast majority of them aren't developed in-house.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: These are companies buying startups, developing those technologies.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it made sense that that's sort of where you were looking at the time.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: So and and uh maybe important thing that with Thomas, you know, kind of during the school, we were working already for a company that was doing some automation, you know.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for us it was quite natural.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I would say probably we felt that we are able to sell and we know that market better.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you could imagine that back then, honestly, I had no idea like how iPhone is done and you know what what is really needed, you know, for for getting there.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say probably it was a good choice.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, ultimately, I would say that market was maybe a little smaller, but you know, I always try to describe all, you know, I call it like a stair theory that you have to walk on those stairs.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: You cannot jump too much, but you have to still go further and further.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I would say for us, probably it was very good entry into the world of entrepreneurship, VC and fundraising and all of this.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was, it was, I think, pretty good.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: But you always acquisition was always something you were kind of looking at.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I would say, you know, I I we are always very opportunistic in this.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I'm always telling, like, every day when I wake up, I just want to build the best company on the planet, period.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really like I I'm hunting it or something like that.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, good companies are either very successful or acquired.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that that that's a good definition.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's only there's only, you know, in in uh in in baseball they call it the three true outcomes.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's very similar in in startups where there's only like a you know a few really kind of kind of definitive ways you can go with it.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something before we go too far into the Bright Pick side of things, there's a uh interesting bit of this that I want to tease out, uh, a part of your story.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you've spoken about this a bit, but I don't think most people know how relatively unusual this is that you um again coming from Slovakia and you you effectively like were cold-calling investors, right?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, mostly, mostly, yes.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you can imagine that um everything's always dynamic, you know, like you you can describe the situation in the given moment.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: In that given moment, there was, for example, a credo venture out of Prague, and today you can tell they are super successful.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they invested uh 11 laps and UiPath.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so so in that given moment, everybody would tell that yes, it's probably unknown fund or less known fund from smaller country and so on and so on.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, you know, they did a few very good decisions, you know, and very good bets.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: So all of this is very well you know kind of developing, and that's why I kind of mentioned that I I still feel that in some countries I feel people maybe are a little more comfortable with the salaries, with the situation.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: You you know, I don't want to again get somehow political, but you know, for example, in China, I still feel there's 100 million people who are very, very eager, you know, very like business-wise, I mean, you know, very like driven.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I I somehow feel that that in in the West, like we should understand that like if we want to compete, we have to work hard.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's it.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's no other way.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, also, people sometimes complain that you know, I have to work uh whatever nine, ten hours.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I understand, you know, there's some it's not for everyone.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone is telling that I want to be state of the art, I want to be the best, like you have to work probably 14 hours per day.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's there's no other way.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to, you know, kind of force it or something like that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it it's everybody's choice, you know.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you want to do it?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to, you know, I always compare it to Premier League or something like that.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to really play the first league?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you have to you have you have to be pretty good and you have to uh work very, very hard.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's no other way.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean here here here's the way, like at this point in my life, here's the way I think that I I would kind of qualify it is that uh there are different ways to be successful in life, and and business is business is one of those, you know, and and even like jobs and career are one of those, and and there are different ways to be successful in in jobs and careers.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, certainly if your goal is to launch a technology startup and you're not starting from a place of, you know, I guess privilege or or of, you know, you don't have like a head start, then yes, like when you're at a point in your life when you have the energy, which is probably your early 20s, and you know, maybe you don't have kind of some of the social obligations that you might have a little bit later in your life, then then this is kind of the opportunity that that you have to really kind of spend those hours.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, and again, you no no aspersions on people who don't decide to do that because it's not that's not the life that everybody wants to live.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it you know, it it it's it's understandable that you felt obligated to do those like 14 I think you've even said like 16 hour days in some of the conversations you had.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, seriously, like uh you know, sometimes it's really like one hour of soccer per week.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And otherwise, you know, like uh I have I have somehow you know crazy advantage that I don't need to sleep much.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like I would say even long term, I can do like five hours per day, usually like three plus two or some combination.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yes, you know, like we will see.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people told me already five years ago that that you know, like uh I will die or something.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Looks like it's fine, you know.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So are you still, I mean, have you like I like one thing I will say, listen, like I I have spent I've sacrificed certain things in my life, and I've I've spent I've had a lot of long hours, but certain things and people in my life have forced me to slow down a little bit.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I've slowed down a little bit.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, have you learned a little bit in your life to maybe open up a few more hours a week for soccer?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say family or friends or like dog that's currently barking in the background.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: So so I think I I have to uh I think you know, my my wife is CFO of the company actually.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I would say, you know, some people call us, you know, power couple, and I would say that's probably the right description.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I could I want to be you know kind of careful and and you know still a good husband, you know, but honestly, it's it's not that simple.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like uh now, you know, the bigger is the company, the more responsibility you you feel, you know, against all of all of those employees.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say uh yes, it's not always simple, you know.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and uh yeah, in many cases I describe that that I think it's partially about you know competitiveness.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like usually entrepreneurs and and you know sports people, like they are just crazy competitive.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and I remember last uh team building, you know, I have to calm down our people because I felt like they are going to kill each other.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they are super competitive, you know, including me, of course.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh well it was competition, it was competition with your friend and future co-founder that got this whole thing started, right?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was you you you were like it was your ego and the fact that he learned code that that's part of this whole damn thing.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm I'm curious, and and and you know, I think I didn't I didn't know your wife was the CFO, but that's very interesting.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious how this plays into, you know, again, around 2020, 2021.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's a big global pandemic.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you decide, as you said, that um it didn't make sense to have these two entirely separate divisions within the company.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but also um I mean it was pretty clear from from where I was sitting as a journalist, and I'm sure it was pretty clear from you on the inside that like, oh yeah, this pandemic is definitely doing something as far as accelerating automation.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the time that we have to do this.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, like now is the time, but now is the time to effectively leave what is a successful company to start a new thing.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, with how were those conversations with her specifically?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in many cases, people like to tell the story that that it's you know that there's some binary moment, and you know, that's it.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: But in you know, I think in many cases it's a small a lot of small arguments that ultimately are going to decide.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and the same was here, that we have seen that AI is really taking off.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we can really pick unknown items, you know, it can generalize to unseen items, and that that was somehow opening the entire logistics world.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, in automotive, you are going to pick kind of the same part, you know, because it's it's you know, it's production line, it's going to be the same part mostly.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: In logistics, it it's either reverse, you know.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like in automotive, it was very difficult to do placing because you have to place it very accurately.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, picking was simple, placing was difficult.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in in logistics, even picking is quite challenging because you have completely unknown parts, you know, coming every day, new parts, unseen parts, and so on.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that was the first third argument.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Second was that we somehow realized that that it may be for us, it may be quite difficult to scale that platform of vision and intelligence.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, I I don't like it to tell it, but seriously, I felt like we are maybe too small.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for someone like Zebra, they have that platform and it's just kind of extended of their platform.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: For us, I felt that uh you know, sometimes I'm really questioning is there enough engineers on the planet who are able to take your 3D sensor, your robot, and install it?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like that that that that speed of deployment and easy of deployment, that's the most important parameter ever.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like robots they work, you know, vision it works, intelligence it works, you know, but but still that that journey to that final success and and happy customer is just kind of too long and too too too difficult.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And how to do it without disrupting the supply chain and to keep the customer happy.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a million different things you have to take in consideration.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like imagine I will give you perfect robot, you know, perfect robot.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: You still have to kind of productize it, you know, even I mean perfect gripper, perfect intelligence.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: You have to productize it.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: You have to explain the customer how to use it, you have to identify that that process that is going to be automated, ROI has to be good, you know.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: That is still still a very long journey.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: So and with Brightbeak, we decided to be much more vertical, you know, kind of end-to-end, really.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: So much bigger uh kind of system.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, now uh in average, I think we have something like 53 robots per warehouse uh we are selling.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it is significant big system, and and the logic is really that uh first of all, the direct connection with customer helps me to shape you know the entire product well.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, like I kind of want to be the dominant technology, you know, like and and not just you know, kind of steal it or how to tell it, but by my logic is that then I can help and shape, you know, if if I'm tiny technology somewhere, like I'm not going to influence it, it's not impactful.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like you have to be kind of the kind of the big guy, or how to tell it, you know, to really have impact and and that ability to upsell and ability to shape that product in in in and and and really impact that that customer.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: And of course it took me a few years to realize it it of course takes a little more capital, you know, because you it's a bigger system and so on and so on.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we did you know a pretty good decision, and and you know, Bright Peak isn't now scaling in this given moment, it's kind of you know two times faster than Photonio.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel that yes, we we of course we had pretty good kickstart.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, part of the team was kind of inherited, you know, how to tell it from Photonio.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a huge, you know.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I still tell that you know, my uh chief of hardware, you know, like if you ask 20 questions, 19 of them will answer exactly the same as me.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we are perfectly aligned, you know, it's just you know, that team is you know perfect, perfect.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like over those years we we perfected the team, and now it's interesting that what is really distinguishing companies today, mainly with AI, I think it's really like speed of development.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you know you are not going to be with the given product, with the status quo, you are not going to be state of the art in five years.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's clear, it's it's given.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the only thing you can do is that you are that fast and you kind of maintain that advantage over time.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: That that's the only recipe, I guess.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I and I think if I'm reading between the lines here, like the end game for you is uh pun somewhat intended, is is being the end-to-end solution um for like the warehouse, for example, is it is being a modular automation solution with all these different pieces that work together.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would say the the logic should be that that uh it should be stereo modular, flexible, but able to handle crazy high throughput, and ultimately, you know, like now I call it actually one main warehouse instead of lights out warehouse, you know, because I still think you know there's gonna be kind of manager of robots or how to call it, you know, one guy who is managing the robots and entire process and kind of ensuring the warehouse works well, but I think that's the end game, and it's actually not that far.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for example, the feed we have a warehouse in in Denver, you know, they are running kind of lights out, night shift.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's only during the night, but you know, that's of course the most expensive period for for labor.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: So from this viewpoint, I think we are not that far.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is it the most complicated warehouse fully automated?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Is it more simple warehouse fully automated?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's that's happening even today.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: That see, that's a even that is a change from a few years ago when I would talk to people.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how much of this was them them hedging.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very this is a big, complex conversation.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's way too late in the podcast to start down this.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, uh but e even a few years ago, I think um a lot of people in the automation space weren't even willing to suggest that they were heading towards a lights out solution because of what that means for existing labor.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're saying you're saying one man's solution or one person solution, which means somebody's there as a as a manager.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is there in in the case of a of a of a lights out or a semi-lights out solution, you know, what what does that does that mean?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Does that does that really displace all of those existing roles?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Does it make new roles?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: I would say um, you know, let's talk about today.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so today you can imagine that similar warehouse would have probably still few people for restocking of items because you know that is specific.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you have to unload it, it's multiple processes, you know, and and I think automation in many cases people try to kind of avoid that you know diminishing return or and and automating that tail.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, over time, you know, it's more and more companies or processes, AI helping, being more general.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yes, we are doing also that.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, today, yes, as I told, few people doing restocking, of course, some palette manipulation, even that is already very well automated.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: But like Grid Picker, for example, has had I was reading up on it, and it does have a way for human.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: To interact with it and to do picking.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's you know kind of another direction.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Very quickly, I will try to describe.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's extremely important in automation to have actually several fallbacks.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, this is very nice fallback we have there that the customers they don't even really know what that the robot was not able to pick the given item because the robot is following the human, uh you know, kind of asking for help.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, dear human, please help me with this given pick.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I think that works very, very well.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would always you know suggest to everyone like there's kind of the vision of 100% automation is nice.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: We are always hunting that, but you have to have several fallbacks and always kind of the trajectory because you know, like I I almost hate when people tell 100%.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's no 100% in this universe, it's always 99.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna be able to do that.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, tell to the self-driving car companies.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, oh yes, that is you know another difficult discussion, but uh for us it's exactly like this.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think sometimes we have even four layers of fallbacks, three in many cases, but sometimes even four, because yes, you simply cannot predict what will happen.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, HKCs are there's infinite amount of HKCs, you know, the tail is infinitely long, just the percentage is still lower and lower, you know.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: So so you you almost cannot tell that uh something will not happen.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: It will, you know, it's just a matter of time.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: So so uh we we have to talk about this because I because I you know I'm I'm curious about several elements of this.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: I saw the gridpicker at Modex, it's a very cool system.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was not at Logimat, but even if I was at Logimat, I would not have seen Grid Picker.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, so uh yes, Okadom, you know, uh somehow filed uh this preliminary injunction.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was kind of uh interesting experience where you know we were working hard.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: You can imagine that it's it is it is today.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can tell that Grid Picker is probably the most groundbreaking product in fulfillment over several years.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like it just yesterday.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: You were actually doing like a timed launch at last.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: That was a launch, exactly.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so you can imagine full excitement.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we have seen demo running you know for several weeks, and it was just yes, it's super fast, it's reliable, you know.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: You have that satisfaction, you know, like finally it's here, it is happening, we are going to show you know what we have.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and in principle, we got that uh injunction or warning or how to tell it.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was just a few hours, you know, I think 12 or 13 or something like that before the show.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was difficult to react, and in principle, oh yes, they they we have to close the the entire booth, or not the entire booth, the part of the booth that was related to grid picker, you know, autopicker was of course you know still running and all of this.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: But you can imagine like suddenly it was you know, after disappointment, you know, because you know suddenly I cannot you know show my my uh cool cool new new toy.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um ultimately, yes, it is some kind of distraction.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, you know, it's proving that that we have something very special.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and yes, of course, you know, today looks like you know all the arguments show that that you know we are on a pretty good trajectory to resolve this very quickly, so I'm I'm not worried.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, I because I want to ask about like uh you know, then granted this could even change you know between our recording and and this coming out, but uh Logimap was in it uh it is in Stuttgart.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you know that that injunction specifically isn't in Germany.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And when you go and look at the promo video, it says, you know, not available for sale in Germany, which still seems to be the case.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we have to do it from from a legal point of view.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the the so that was extra ex parte.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if people know what it means.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like we were not able to react.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was kind of Ocado just filing and judges, you know, giving, you know, us out out of the loop, you know.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not you're not admitting guilt.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're not admitting guilt, but you know, you you have to deal with uh yes, yes.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: So so they got it without our involvement.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: So so now, you know, of course there's ongoing protests, and you know, finally we have we have a way how to defend ourselves, but in the meantime, it it's simply given.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: So yes.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and yeah, you're not you're not you're certainly not the first company that Okaido has gone after.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: They there had a big, big dissettlement with Auto Store, so like this is there there is precedent for this.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then if I was you know, again, I didn't have enough time to go super far down this rabbit hole, but um I would I was looking at some dockets, and it looks like you kind of preemptively filed in the States just to kind of like nip that in the bud before they went after you.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is that basically the strategy?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: In principle, you know, again, we just want to prove we are not infringing anything, you know, like as you know, natural way.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so yeah, I think I think uh again it's some kind of you know noise we have to solve, but you know, I don't see that as a big problem now.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: So right now, like as as we're recording this, like what is the status of grid picker?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: You said that it's gotten traction, like what like in terms of like across the world, like you know, can people buy it, deploy it?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what what's the state of the system?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, you know, there's it's it's you know, this is limited to Germany, and and you could imagine that it's uh you know still there's some very unique properties that simply makes it unbeatable almost, you know.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I'm not sure if we have enough time, but you know, in general, it is extremely high throughput system.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: So so uh you could imagine that I have seen also simulation a few days ago, actually emulation, you know, so very, very realistic simulation uh that was 50,000 lines per hour.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, in many cases people do that during day, or how to tell it this is per hour.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it could be that it's one of the fastest, it would be, you know, in this case, well one of the fastest installation ever made.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: I like I have seen probably something like 25,000 lines per hour, but 50,000 lines per hour, I think I have never ever seen.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and that there was still actually you know some some way how to increase it.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: So from this viewpoint, it's intended you know for very high throughput systems, and and I would say, yeah, from what we see, there's no there's no competition kind of, you know, because because it is simply fundamentally it could be fundamentally very dense, or how to tell it, you know, we call it performance density, you know, so so that means like how many order lines you can fulfill for the colour.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: How much you can pack into the space effectively.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because it really is it really is one of the it it is like you know, autostore is the one the model that I think people are used to, but it but it is that um that super pack system, but it's doing the picking from the top effectively.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: So in principle, you could imagine our robots fundamentally travel much shorter distances, so so it's it's it's half of them to achieve the same throughput.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: So of course you can use more robots, you know, to get higher throughput.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it is it is very unique.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, I would say you know, another dream is on the table.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: So so I'm very happy now.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, we have to you know somehow sell as much as we can and and deploy as much as we can.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say uh, you know, look looks like we have you know classical scaling problems, or how to tell it, you know, like now we have to extend manufacturing, you know, we are purchasing a new building and so on and so on.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of nice scaling problems on the table.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I'm telling my people we have what we wanted, you know, we wanted to have a scale, now we have it, you know, so let's go.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, tell me about it.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice, nice problems to have, as they say, are but are but are but are still problems.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it but but it's an you know it is I've been covering space a long time.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, it's it's exciting because there's still there's still so many uh uh warehouses that aren't automated right now.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think probably, you know, I'm guessing you agree with me on this, that like there's still so many interesting solutions coming out, and and the answer at the end of the day, it's gonna be probably like a combination of solutions.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, you know, Locust is doing some cool stuff.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: You saw at Modex, they also launched their solution as well.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's I mean, it's it it it's a it's an exciting time to be following the space.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, in in general, I feel that the space is somehow crowded.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's it's it's fair to tell.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's much more about you know the unique proposition you have and and all of this.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, we were driving that innovation, you know, over over the last few years.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think honestly, we are probably considered to be one of the most innovative.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think kind of as I told before, we just need to keep that pace and and kind of uniqueness now and yes, uh scale manufacturing quickly and and you know keep up with the with the demand.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Jan, thank you so much for taking the time.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure, my pleasure.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Jan Zishka and Brightpick.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks to you as always for tuning in.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, please like, share, review, and check out the rest of our work over at automated.fm.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Stick around, and we will be back here very soon with another episode of Automated.