Latest / The Frommer's Travel Show / An American Revolution Road Trip, Created by PBS Star Darley Newman

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An American Revolution Road Trip, Created by PBS Star Darley Newman · The Frommer's Travel Show

• 0:13
  And welcome to the Fromer Travel Show.
• 0:15
  I'm your Host, Pauline Fromer.
• 0:18
  July 4th marks the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and, and also of the founding of the United States.
• 0:28
  And it feels like a lot of people have been working almost that same amount of time to get together the incredible celebrations that will be happening across the United States to mark this important anniversary.
• 0:44
  My next guest wanted to go a little deeper.
• 0:49
  She wanted to talk about the history and the places where that history comes to life across the United States so that you're not just, you know, blowing up fireworks, but you have a better understanding of the historic events
• 1:09
  that led to the founding of the country that we all love.
• 1:15
  Her name is Darlie Newman.
• 1:17
  You may know her from the TV show Travels With Darlie.
• 1:21
  And here she is.
• 1:21
  Hey, Darlie, thank you so much for appearing on the Fromer Travel Show.
• 1:25
  Thanks, Pauline, for having me.
• 1:28
  So you have written a book.
• 1:30
  It is called Revolutionary Road Trip.
• 1:34
  There it is.
• 1:36
  Hidden Stories from America's Founding Journey.
• 1:41
  Is it fair to say that the book is a companion to your TV show?
• 1:46
  Yeah, it's a companion, but it dives deeper in new ways.
• 1:50
  I actually have filmed 12 half hour episodes called Revolutionary Road Trip.
• 1:55
  So taking, taking viewers to sites related to the American Revolution.
• 1:59
  And I've done several podcasts as well.
• 2:01
  They're on PBS stations, they're on Tubi and going to our YouTube as well.
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  So they're a great resource.
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  But in, in collecting these stories and traveling over the last few years to these locations, I just realized I had so many stories and places that weren't in the normal history books, and they weren't in all the travel
• 2:20
  books, and they weren't your normal suspects for American Revolution history.
• 2:25
  And it's a topic that many people think, oh, it's not something I'm interested in.
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  But I feel like once you hear some of these stories, they're so colorful.
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  You know, there's the sad, the happy, the fascinating, the strange.
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  It's really all there in the American Revolution.
• 2:42
  And it's not always present when people immediately think about the subject.
• 2:46
  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in the book about why look into history.
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  You talk to a lot of people who are reenactors or who spend their lives trying to bring this history to the public.
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  And I think it's fair to say that in order to understand the United States today, you need to understand this history, right?
• 3:08
  I think so.
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  And it's interesting because a lot of people have talked about these commemorations of the 250th and said, you know, I, it doesn't apply to me.
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  I don't see myself in this history.
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  And what I found in traveling to these locations is it is quite diverse.
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  And you can see yourself even if, I mean, my family hails from Sweden and Finland and my, you know, my parents on my dad's side, he was the first generation here.
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  So it's not like I, we didn't sail over on the Mayflower.
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  We weren't here.
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  We weren't.
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  We weren't with the founding fathers.
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  But in looking back at some of the stories, women who are involved in the movement, children who live through the movement, you look at the American Revolution and you think about what happened and you can see yourself in
• 3:53
  it or you can see a relative or a friend when you look at the diversity of these stories.
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  So I think that's something that's really interesting and unique.
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  So let's talk about some of those stories.
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  You start your book in a place that I think will surprise a lot of people.
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  Not in Philadelphia, not in Boston, but in New Jersey, which, you know, today I think people think of New Jersey as a place where the Sopranos live perhaps, but it had some very important revolutionary history on the campus
• 4:32
  of one of the world's great universities, Princeton.
• 4:37
  So tell us about the Princeton connection.
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  I found this really fascinating.
• 4:41
  Well, first of all, New Jersey, they call New Jersey the crossroads of the American Revolution in New Jersey.
• 4:47
  But other people, really.
• 4:48
  Yes, it's.
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  I've got a lot of content out in New Jersey, not just in Princeton, but Monmouth Battlefield is out in New Jersey.
• 4:57
  Trenton, we've got a lot of locations where they're.
• 5:00
  And, and then lesser known stories in places from Union County.
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  I just did an episode out there.
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  Elizabeth, New Jersey has American Revolution history, but Princeton, I think is really fascinating because the campus itself, Nassau hall was around at the time of the revolution and it was then the College of New Jersey and there was
• 5:19
  a battle that was fought right on the campus.
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  And great stories.
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  If you ever travel out to Princeton, you can go and look at the side of Nassau hall and you can try to find a spot where you.
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  They think that possibly in this battle that was on the campus with Alexander Hamilton involved.
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  Wow.
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  It was maybe, maybe Alexander Hamilton who fired a cannon that went through the actual wall of Nassau Hall.
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  And there is a story that it went through a painting of King George II and took out his head and I just, and decapitated the painting.
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  And it's, it's.
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  But these Are really interesting details.
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  And just to even think about Alexander Hamilton being on what is today the campus.
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  I walked around and I thought about, oh, I wonder if the students passing this knew that the battle.
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  There was a battle that was fought here that was pivotal to our nation's history.
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  And you can go and visit.
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  Yeah.
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  Did you know this?
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  I just.
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  I thought it was fascinating.
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  I didn't know this.
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  And I thought it was fascinating that later on, did they use the same frame to put in a very important photo.
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  Not photo.
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  Portrait of George Washington.
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  Yes.
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  We have also this George Washington at the Battle of Princeton painting, which is remarkable.
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  And you.
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  When I filmed there and did this segment and did this research, it was actually being housed off campus for a time because they were redoing the Princeton Art Museum.
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  But if you go to visit the campus today, you can go to the art museum and you can see this painting.
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  So this is a remarkable work.
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  There are a lot of.
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  Princeton University has such an amazing art collection, and some of it was destroyed during these pivotal times in history.
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  But they have also acquired and saved a lot that is there.
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  So, I mean, that.
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  Something I didn't think about as well.
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  You think about, you know, going to the Met.
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  Well, go to the Princeton Art Museum because the art there is also truly remarkable.
• 7:12
  Oh, yeah.
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  You know, I discovered this.
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  I was just researching the Connecticut version of our New England book, and I went to the Yale Art Gallery and.
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  And it's extraordinary.
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  And it's because these are the oldest institutions in the United States in many ways.
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  And so they were collecting art well before the Metropolitan Museum or any of the other great art museums in the United States.
• 7:37
  Yeah, absolutely.
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  Always go.
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  Now, when you do a tour of Princeton as just a general tourist, will they tell you this revolutionary history or do you have to kind of dig for it, actually?
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  So there's a woman named Mimi who has Princeton Tour Company.
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  So I loved it.
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  And I know, I know you do, too.
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  But I love to take these tours that are run by local people when I'm traveling.
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  I mean, they're small businesses and they.
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  They have invested so much time and energy and really learning the ins and outs of the history and can take you into places and give you insights that you really wouldn't know.
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  Because, I mean, even if you're on Princeton trip on Princeton University right across the way, you can go over and have a pint and toast a Norman Rockwell painting.
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  And then Mimi, who took me on this tour, who will tell you history of the American Revolution, she'll talk to you about the indigenous people who were there before this even happened.
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  And she'll share the ins and outs of Einstein and what was happening with him in Princeton.
• 8:39
  So you really get the different time periods when you do a kind of a walking tour around Princeton with Mimi or one of the.
• 8:46
  One of her friends that's leading the tours out there.
• 8:49
  Yeah, yeah.
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  No great stuff.
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  Now, you also talk about in the Princeton area, a Quaker family and how their farmstead really became the center of a great battle.
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  And, you know, people who think, oh, battles, it's all strategy.
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  It's all moving the troops here and there.
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  The story of this family belies that.
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  It shows that real human lives were affected.
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  So can you tell quickly the story of that Quaker family or not so quickly?
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  Because it really was a fascinating insight.
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  I thought.
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  So this is the Clark family.
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  And if you go to Princeton Battlefield State park, which is not far from the university, I did actually ride an E bike there.
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  You can learn.
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  You can visit the home of the Clark family, which still exists today on the battlefield, which is a state park that you can visit.
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  And reenactors who are inside the home will share about the Clark family, who lived there with an enslaved woman named Susanna.
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  And we actually have documentation of their life and this story.
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  But like many families who lived on properties that were farms at other places that they thought they could perhaps be away from the turmoil that was happening, the revolution landed literally on their doorsteps.
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  And many of these homes, they became hospitals.
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  During this time period, the battle was fought right outside of the Clark family's home.
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  And then the wounded soldiers were brought into the home.
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  And Susanna and Thomas Clark, they had to help.
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  And it was interesting because they were Quakers, and Quakers weren't choosing sides during the Revolution traditionally.
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  But, I mean, I felt it was like a modern hospital scenario where it's a duty to help someone who needs help, who life isn't.
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  And what was so compelling to me was they weren't just helping the Continental army, they were also helping the invaders.
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  They were helping the Brits.
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  They all were lying side by side at these hospital beds getting care from this Quaker family.
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  Right?
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  They were.
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  And, you know, it's this story that we hear that I heard at a lot of battlefield sites that are now state parks.
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  They're also national park sites.
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  And again, this is the everyday people of the revolution that maybe their stories weren't the first and foremost stories of our American history classes when we were growing up.
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  But I think it's interesting to kind of look at their stories and See what their lives are like.
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  The John Dickinson Plantation in Delaware is also in the book.
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  And also he was the penman of the revolution.
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  They found an African burial ground on the property.
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  Now, and they're researching who's buried there.
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  They're looking at what they should do and how they should commemorate this.
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  This space in this land.
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  And again, there are just a lot of homes and places that people think about the revolution, and they may think about battlefields, maybe you think about churches, but a lot of these sites are parks.
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  They're homes.
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  They are now.
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  And that is a site that is actually under National Park Service as well, the John Dickinson Plantation.
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  And they're being preserved in these different ways, which I thought was an interesting part of the story as well.
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  Yeah.
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  But back to the Clark family home very quickly.
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  They were Quakers, and so they didn't choose sides, as you said, that made them targets.
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  I mean, not only was their farm overrun, probably everything they planted was destroyed by this battle.
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  Probably a lot of their livestock was killed.
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  But they were deeply and viciously open to attack.
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  Right.
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  I mean, a lot of Quakers lost their lives because they wouldn't choose a side.
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  Well, and it's also interesting because their whole livelihood changed.
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  You know, everything about what they had, what they.
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  What they owned.
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  It's almost like nowadays if you had your money in a bank and someone came and said, well, we're taking it all to fight the war.
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  You know, their crops, their.
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  Their land, their.
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  You know, their.
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  Their horses, their livestock.
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  These things were taken by both sides for what was, you know, to be a part of this turmoil in this situation.
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  So it was.
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  It was.
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  You can't even say it was hugely disruptive because it was just seismic.
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  Catastrophic for many.
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  Yeah, absolutely.
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  And again, all the same story throughout.
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  Throughout the original 13 colonies.
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  In my travels, it wasn't just at this.
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  The Thomas Clark house.
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  It was at many other homes and sites where the same story rang true.
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  The Hale Burns house in Delaware.
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  I mean, this is.
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  It kind of made me laugh, but then it didn't make me laugh because they had all this cheese that they had stocked and all their.
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  And I just.
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  40 wheels of cheese, I think it was.
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  Which must have taken them years, you know, to create.
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  Yeah, I felt catastrophic about that.
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  Cheese as well.
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  Maybe has a colorful side to it, but it's also.
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  Again, these were their livelihoods, and it was very disruptive.
• 14:01
  Yeah.
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  Right.
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  And I think in the Clark family, you.
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  You make the point that they probably got a promissory note for what was taken, but that Promissory note was only going to be good if that side won the war.
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  You know that.
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  And otherwise, you're.
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  You're out of luck.
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  You're probably never going to be repaid in any significant way for.
• 14:23
  For the 40 wheels of cheese or for whatever was taken from your home.
• 14:28
  No.
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  And that was quite interesting, Pauline, about choosing sides and how people chose both regular families and enslaved people.
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  They fought on different sides because they had to decide at some point.
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  And.
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  And it wasn't so easy for people to decide, we think now we think, of course, they would side with the Patriots, but not necessarily.
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  It was not an easy choice in a lot of different areas for many different reasons.
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  And I thought that was an interesting thing to learn in my travels throughout the original 13 colonies, but especially in Camden, South Carolina, at historic Camden and their Revolutionary War Center.
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  Because if you go in there, there are great exhibitions related to this topic and also interactive exhibitions for kids to.
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  To try to say, how would you.
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  What would you have done if you had been alive during this.
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  This time?
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  Sure.
• 15:16
  Sure.
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  Interesting.
• 15:18
  All right, so we go from the Battle of Princeton to perhaps one of the most famous battles of the war, which was Brandywine in Pennsylvania.
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  Why was that such a significant battle?
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  And what do you see when you go there?
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  Well, this was super interesting the way.
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  Especially the way it's laid out and how there is a large portion that is privately owned, but you can visit in kind of a side way, which I thought was interesting at Thornberry Farm.
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  But this was the largest battle of the American Revolution.
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  Continental army loses, and the British are able to take Philadelphia.
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  So this is a pivotal moment in the American Revolution.
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  And it was also a very gory, bloody battle.
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  And that was really brought to life on in this area called Thornberry Farm, which you can go to today if you're traveling, because there is a farm stand.
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  But the owner, Randall Speckman, he has grown up there on the farm.
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  He also invites travelers to visit for different things.
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  They do reenactments.
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  He has different educational programs.
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  And if you even just stop at the farm stand and end up chatting with him or someone who's working there, they'll tell you a lot about what happened on.
• 16:30
  On this site.
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  And there.
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  There is signage there as well.
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  There is interpretive signage out on the property.
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  And he.
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  And Randall was dressed as a.
• 16:39
  As a British soldier, which I thought was interesting, and had a lot to share about what it was like to grow up on this land where this battle was fought, because, again, it is, you know, a piece of
• 16:52
  property that has such a significant history.
• 16:55
  And that is something that is.
• 16:58
  That was very interesting to hear, I would think.
• 17:01
  I don't know if I don't believe in ghosts, but you might feel the shadows of the past in a place like that.
• 17:08
  I mean, you had 30,000 troops in one of the bloodiest battles of the war.
• 17:14
  And it was such an important one, not only because it meant that Philadelphia was captured, but because of who was involved.
• 17:21
  I mean, the Marquis de Lafayette was there, George Washington was there, Alexander Hamilton.
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  All of the major players were involved in this battle.
• 17:32
  And I loved when you went into the details with the gentleman who owns this farm of what.
• 17:39
  What the uniform would have been and the fact that they had to wear this throughout the year.
• 17:46
  Right.
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  So can you.
• 17:47
  Can you talk a little bit about what he told you about what he was wearing?
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  Because I.
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  I love this.
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  It really brought the.
• 17:53
  The personal to life to my mind.
• 17:56
  Yeah, it was interesting because.
• 17:58
  Well, and again, I've seen the uniform in different areas, and in Morristown, at their National Historical park, you can also.
• 18:05
  There's an exhibition where kids can try on the uniform, so you can kind of get the sense of the fabric.
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  But when I'm.
• 18:11
  When I got there, Randall was still kind of getting ready for us.
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  And so we were out on his back portico and he was putting everything on.
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  He was.
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  He was putting on the musket, and he had his.
• 18:26
  There was a.
• 18:26
  With a bayonet, which was used in the battle.
• 18:28
  And just being it up close, you really get a kind of chilling sense for, you know, what it would be like for.
• 18:35
  To.
• 18:35
  To both use it or to have it used on you.
• 18:38
  Right.
• 18:39
  But they were really carrying everything they needed to survive.
• 18:42
  And they wore these wool uniforms throughout the summer, through the winter.
• 18:48
  You wanted it in the winter, but you wouldn't necessarily want it in the summer.
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  He had this neck collar, which, again, was meant to protect his neck in case someone would try to use the bayonet on.
• 18:59
  On him.
• 19:01
  And really, they carried everything that they needed, including food and even a bowl to eat their breakfast, lunch, dinner.
• 19:09
  So it was.
• 19:10
  It was not easy to.
• 19:12
  To.
• 19:12
  To be a soldier at this time period.
• 19:15
  And I just thought it was interesting too, though, that Randall was a British soldier and.
• 19:19
  And he talked about how he liked to kind of visualize what it was like from different perspectives.
• 19:26
  And I think him growing up there in this setting where he lived on this land, and you talk and you mentioned ghosts, and that's something that came up in a lot of my travels as well, and I only
• 19:35
  sprinkled it in the book because I don't like it to.
• 19:39
  I don't want to do anything that would be too salacious, quite frankly, about revolutionaries.
• 19:44
  But a lot of people I met did believe in feeling this energy, whether it's related to ghosts or not.
• 19:50
  You feel a different energy when you're on.
• 19:53
  On hollow ground and when you're in these places where many people, important people and everyday people fought and traveled throughout this time period.
• 20:03
  Yeah, yeah.
• 20:04
  And very briefly, back to the uniform, you talk about the fact that he had to wear it year round.
• 20:10
  When I was in my early 20s, I toured the country with Les Miserables, the Broadway national tour.
• 20:17
  And there was one ball scene where we had to wear this heavy silk that, because of the delicacy of the fabric, could only be washed once a year.
• 20:29
  And so there was this beautiful scene where we were dancing and spinning, but the smell was horrendous.
• 20:36
  And I have to think that it was probably the same on those battlefields.
• 20:41
  Just smelling people in these uniforms that they had been in in summer, in winter, makes you think very differently about what they went through, you know, at that time.
• 20:54
  Yeah, you're right.
• 20:55
  And then in thinking about the different terrains they were traveling through, I really.
• 21:00
  This really hit home, especially in South Carolina, which is where I'm from, where we're looking at the.
• 21:06
  The swamps and the areas that people traveled through, and you're getting wet and you're getting muddy, and then you're camping and you're in the heat.
• 21:14
  And the humidity of South Carolina in summer is no picnic.
• 21:18
  Some.
• 21:18
  In some areas, yep.
• 21:20
  Well, let's talk about South Carolina.
• 21:22
  That was one of my most favorite parts of the book.
• 21:25
  So on a basic level, oysters were incredibly important during the Revolutionary War in a way that I.
• 21:36
  I learned from the book.
• 21:37
  I had no idea they were so important in construction.
• 21:40
  Can you talk a little bit about the importance of oysters?
• 21:46
  Yeah, I thought it was really interesting as well and found oyster shells in many places that I didn't expect in these travels.
• 21:54
  Oysters were eaten as part of daily life and during the Revolutionary War and during colonial times.
• 22:01
  But they were used in construction in South Carolina because they were combined to make something called tabby.
• 22:07
  It's almost like a concrete.
• 22:09
  And you don't think about how strong oyster shells are when you think about it.
• 22:13
  It almost makes sense.
• 22:15
  But they did use them to construct what was a fortress in Charleston.
• 22:21
  And I think this story is fascinating because if you're ever in downtown Charleston, even Locals don't necessarily know that in, in Marion Square park, there are the remnants of what was a fortress built from oyster shells that was
• 22:35
  used during the Revolutionary War.
• 22:36
  It's called the horn work.
• 22:37
  And it actually was very vast.
• 22:40
  And right now there's only about the size of a refrigerator left there.
• 22:45
  A little larger.
• 22:46
  Is it stone or does it go up looking like a refrigerator?
• 22:49
  It looks like an oblong thumb.
• 22:51
  So it's kind of like this.
• 22:53
  Like it's.
• 22:53
  It's a little bit rounded in a weird way at the top, but it is.
• 22:58
  You.
• 22:58
  You would look at it and say, I don't know what that is.
• 23:00
  There's an iron gate surrounding it.
• 23:02
  And now there's historical signage everywhere.
• 23:04
  And if you walk through the park, you can trace what was the actual fortress.
• 23:10
  They've put markers on the ground so you can kind of walk the walls of the fortress to understand.
• 23:15
  And it went across Market street, so it went across what is today a busy.
• 23:19
  A busy street avenue thoroughfare.
• 23:22
  And it was, you know, they have these, these rivers in Charleston, and they, they're thinking about how do we protect people from going inland and how do we protect Charleston itself?
• 23:32
  So this was there for protection.
• 23:35
  But I thought one aspect of the story that was also really interesting is how do we have these homes, these remnants of fortresses.
• 23:42
  How does this stuff get saved over time?
• 23:44
  And the story was that it was kind of accidentally saved because it was in somebody's backyard garden or something.
• 23:52
  It wasn't saved on purpose, was the end of the day.
• 23:56
  And again, I thought it was interesting because now we look at it and we see the value of what is this small remnant of a fortress that's there today.
• 24:03
  And thankfully now it has been saved.
• 24:05
  And people, you know, want to know what it is when they realize that it's there.
• 24:10
  But it's another story of preservation that came about in kind of a funky, weird way.
• 24:15
  Right, right.
• 24:16
  And so when you're walking around this historic city, you see all kinds of remnants of the past, including.
• 24:24
  You noticed that a lot of the gates had really dangerous looking spiked tops.
• 24:32
  And this leads to some of the sadder parts of the history, you know, the shame of the United States from our founding through the Civil War.
• 24:43
  Uh, why were there these spiked fences?
• 24:48
  Yeah, this to me also was.
• 24:50
  Yeah, this is a tough topic.
• 24:52
  And actually, I first heard about this going on another walking tour with Alfonso Brown.
• 24:58
  He's a local tour guide and he shares the history of Charleston throughout time, including the Gullah Geechee culture, which is really fascinating.
• 25:06
  When you're traveling through, and he'll walk you all over.
• 25:09
  And honestly, you'll learn so, so much if you go out with him.
• 25:13
  I was briefly.
• 25:15
  What is the Gullah Geechee culture?
• 25:18
  They're descendants of West African slaves who have a rich culture in the area.
• 25:23
  And a lot of it can be seen in modern artistry.
• 25:26
  If you go to the Charleston City Market, Corey Alston is a weaver, and he uses Gullah Geechee weaving techniques to actually make these elaborate baskets that were at one time, again, had a purpose.
• 25:39
  And so some of them have been saved over time, but they were used to kind of siphon through Carolina gold rice on the plantations at one point.
• 25:48
  So they had a use.
• 25:50
  But it's like.
• 25:51
  It's interesting to look at crafts and things that have persisted throughout time, because at one point they had a purpose, but at another point, we decided they're just so beautiful.
• 26:01
  Right.
• 26:02
  They have a purpose today, too.
• 26:04
  Right.
• 26:05
  There's a lot of.
• 26:06
  And actually there's remnants.
• 26:08
  And Alfonso talks about how you can see parts of the Caribbean and Charleston, especially from Barbados.
• 26:14
  So I thought that was also interesting.
• 26:16
  And his tour, if you get to take it, is great.
• 26:19
  But he did walk me by several homes and.
• 26:21
  And the Miles Bruton house was one in particular that has these spiked fences outside today.
• 26:28
  And they were constructed to both keep.
• 26:32
  Both for protection for the people inside the home, but also, at one point, to make sure the enslaved people who lived inside did not escape.
• 26:40
  So multiple uses for these fences.
• 26:43
  And if you're in Charleston and you're.
• 26:46
  You're exploring the historic homes, there is a whole history and legacy related to the enslaved peoples who lived in these homes.
• 26:53
  And the Charleston Museum has great information on these stories.
• 26:57
  If you're.
• 26:57
  If you're interested in learning more.
• 26:59
  Because many people think about the enslaved peoples of the time, and they think about inland plantations or vast plantations, but there's a whole history of what was happening within the city, within the city of Charleston or urban areas.
• 27:14
  And you'll see even the gardens that people tended to in the cities.
• 27:18
  And then you can go out to other places and understand more about the horticulture of the time as well.
• 27:25
  Right, right.
• 27:26
  And you just discussed Marion Square a moment ago.
• 27:30
  Marion is a name.
• 27:31
  You say in the book that it appears at 70 different places in the United States because the man, Marion, Francis Marion, was such an important Revolutionary War figure.
• 27:43
  Can you tell a little of his story?
• 27:45
  I thought this was really fascinating.
• 27:48
  Well, so many people, or some people know about the swamp fox, Francis Marion, his moniker was the swamp fox from the movie the Patriot, which Mel Gibson was in.
• 27:58
  And if you talk to historians, they love, hate this movie because there's a lot of inaccuracies as there are.
• 28:05
  It's hard, you know, it's hard to.
• 28:07
  To reproduce and tell these stories.
• 28:10
  And we don't know.
• 28:11
  We don't know everything.
• 28:12
  We know what we know from journals and entries, but of course.
• 28:15
  But that, you know, the swamp fox, Francis Marion, he fought in the backcountry of South Carolina, actually.
• 28:22
  And you can trace his roots in Charleston, too.
• 28:24
  Again, there's a home with a interesting story about Francis Marion perhaps being in the house during a party and somehow getting hurt by falling out of the second story window.
• 28:37
  And again, people say, oh, he was a drinker.
• 28:41
  He wasn't a drinker.
• 28:42
  Either way, he ended up going into the inland part of Charleston to recover from injuring himself at a plantation.
• 28:50
  And thus he wasn't there during the siege of Charleston.
• 28:52
  And, and, you know, the fact that he was inland, he was able to rally troops in the interior part of the state to fight against the British.
• 29:01
  And he did so using guerrilla war techniques.
• 29:05
  I mean, they were in.
• 29:06
  They were hiding in the swamps and they knew the terrain better than the British soldiers did, and so they were able to use these tactics to fight in different ways, and that gave an advantage.
• 29:17
  And yeah, he's celebrated and known throughout South Carolina in particular.
• 29:23
  His grave site is a place that you can visit.
• 29:27
  Keith Gordon, who took me out there, I just thought he.
• 29:31
  His.
• 29:32
  Him sharing the story of Francis Marion.
• 29:35
  And, you know, when they commemorated this grave, you know, commemorated his death and going to the grave site, it was really fascinating.
• 29:43
  And again, he's one of the examples of the many people I met who are personally just dedicated to learning as much as they can about a person or a very specific topic.
• 29:55
  And they just make it interesting, even if you think you don't care.
• 29:59
  I just found that I was so interested in all these sites from the people I met.
• 30:04
  Yeah, yeah, but that comes through in the book.
• 30:07
  Absolutely.
• 30:07
  And on the TV show.
• 30:08
  Before I let you go, I do want to discuss one last place with you because I thought this was such an interesting opportunity for visitors, which.
• 30:19
  It's a place called Mepkin Abbey, which does not sound like it would be an indigenous word, but Mepkin was right.
• 30:30
  It means serene, I believe.
• 30:32
  And tell us a little bit about the history of this abbey, how you can visit it today.
• 30:37
  And if you don't mind, I learned a new word from you.
• 30:41
  That word was Taphophobia, if you could talk about how that word also plays into the story.
• 30:49
  I'm glad you picked this one up, Pauline, because this, to me, I thought was so interesting and something I didn't know about either, but Mepkin Abbey is absolutely a gorgeous site.
• 31:01
  I mean, talk about walking through beautiful land with those trees you think about in the south dripping in Spanish moss.
• 31:08
  And this is a place that travelers can go and visit.
• 31:11
  If you want to stay for a while, you can stay because it is a monastery today, a working monastery, and you can go and stay for a month if you want.
• 31:20
  And you're going to have to work if you do, because you're going to live the life of a monk for that time period that you're there.
• 31:27
  But it's an absolutely beautiful location.
• 31:29
  But again, like many.
• 31:30
  So many beautiful places in our nation, but in particular, I thought in South Carolina, has this kind of passed that again, there were enslaved people living and working on this plantation.
• 31:42
  It was owned by Henry Lawrence.
• 31:44
  He was a wealthy merchant and a slave trader.
• 31:47
  And his son, John Lawrence, was friends with Alexander Hamilton.
• 31:50
  If you've seen Hamilton, you might.
• 31:52
  You might know that.
• 31:54
  But when you're on the.
• 31:55
  If you're visiting the property, you actually can go see the family's grave sites.
• 32:00
  And while I was there, David Brewer, who is a local in South Carolina, and he is passionate about history, and in particular, learning about the history of Mepkin Abbey, he shared with me a story about yet tapha phobia,
• 32:14
  which I didn't know that word either.
• 32:16
  And it is in the 18th century, a lot of people had a fear of being buried alive.
• 32:22
  That's what it is, fear of being buried alive.
• 32:25
  And there was a reason for it.
• 32:28
  And actually, Henry Lawrence's daughter almost was buried alive.
• 32:33
  She had smallpox.
• 32:34
  She was very ill.
• 32:35
  They thought she had passed.
• 32:37
  Back in those days, sometimes you would be laid out on your bed so people could view you before you were buried.
• 32:43
  So she was out and the family was coming to view her, and someone noticed that perhaps she was actually breathing.
• 32:50
  And they.
• 32:52
  They were actually about to.
• 32:53
  To bury his daughter.
• 32:55
  And after that moment, he was like, oh, my gosh, she could have been buried alive.
• 32:59
  And so what I thought was also interesting was that he was the first political, one of the first political figures to be cremated because he said, I do not want to be buried alive.
• 33:09
  You will definitely be cremating me again.
• 33:11
  I was thinking, too, though, wouldn't you hope that you would also not be cremated before they realized.
• 33:17
  Exactly.
• 33:18
  That sounds just as bad to me.
• 33:20
  But very interesting that he was one of the first people to be cremated.
• 33:24
  And she lived many years after that.
• 33:26
  She had children and had a full life.
• 33:29
  So thank goodness somebody noticed that she was moving.
• 33:33
  Yeah.
• 33:33
  And it's so interesting because the fact that so many people had this fear, which was apparently not unfounded.
• 33:40
  It said that George Washington said that he wanted to definitely be buried two days after he passed, when he did pass, because of this fear of being buried alive.
• 33:50
  Wow.
• 33:50
  I didn't know that.
• 33:51
  That's fascinating.
• 33:52
  Yeah.
• 33:53
  Yeah.
• 33:53
  Well, so many things in the book were a revelation to me.
• 33:58
  Once again, it is revolutionary.
• 34:02
  Road Trip Hidden Stories from America's Founding Journey Many congratulations, Darlie, and thank you so much for appearing on the Farmer Travel Show.
• 34:12
  Thanks for having me on.
• 34:13
  This has been great.
• 34:15
  And that is it for this week's show.
• 34:17
  If you enjoyed what you heard, I hope you'll give us a nice rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts or wherever you stream your podcasts.
• 34:26
  And to those of you who are traveling, may I wish you a hearty bon voyage.
• 34:38
  Sour candy on the table Lazy afternoons in your sweatpants Watching cable well, it feels so far away all the channels seem the same Trying to remember all the songs we like to play?
• 35:04
  Cause those lazy afternoons don't come so frequently these days it's been so long but wonder are you ever coming home?
• 35:20
  I like you with your sour candy in the booth house on the lake oh, but I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate the way it takes.
• 35:43
  I can't get you off of my mind Looking out the window where we spend so much of our time?
• 35:54
  Cause I miss the way it moved But I guess you can't control those damn cards with all the balls of us are happy when when we're free but would it be so hard to find your freedom here with
• 36:14
  me?
• 36:16
  Oh, it's been so long and I cannot help but wonder are you ever coming home?
• 36:25
  I like you with your sour candy in the boat house on the lake But I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, hate, I hate, I hate the way it tast.
• 36:47
  And I, I hate the way it tastes But I love it all the same and now I, I hate the way it tastes But I love it all the same.
• 38:41
  Help but wonder are you ever coming home?
• 38:45
  I like you with your sour candy in the boat house on the lake But I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate the way it tastes it's been, it's been so long and I cannot
• 39:02
  help but wonder Are you ever coming home?
• 39:06
  When When I see you with this sour candy don't want it any other way oh, I just hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate the way it tastes.