Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Open-Hearted Awareness with Loch Kelly

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From the archives: Open-Hearted Awareness with Loch Kelly · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Right. Today we even another episode from the archives with
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  Speaker 1: one of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma
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  Speaker 1: Everists podcast, a show about the incredible people dedicated to
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  Speaker 1: helping those who experienced trauma. My name is got macpherson
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  Speaker 1: and my mission is to raise the awareness of trauma
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  Speaker 1: and to inspire each of us to help those around us.
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  Speaker 1: All right, guys, welcome back to the Trauma Thepist podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have today. Locke, Kelly Locke, welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, guys, great to be here.
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  Speaker 3: All right. So Locke has a Masters in Divinity.
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  Speaker 4: He's a licensed clinical social worker as well as an
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  Speaker 4: author as a recognized leader in the field and meditation.
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  Speaker 4: Locke is a founder of the nonprofit Open Hearted Awareness
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  Speaker 4: Institute and he's worked in community mental health, established homeless
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  Speaker 4: shelters and counsel family members of nine to eleven. So
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  Speaker 4: Locke is the author of the book The Way of
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  Speaker 4: Effortless Mindfulness, a Revolutionary Guide for a living and Awakened
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  Speaker 4: the Life, a book which actually doctor Richard Schwartz, the
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  Speaker 4: founder of Internal Family System says brilliantly, we used to
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  Speaker 4: gether meditation, neuroscience and psychotherapy to truly support a compassionate awakening.
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  Speaker 4: All Right, Locke, Obviously that's just a bit about you.
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  Speaker 4: I know we'll get into everything, but do give our listeners. Well,
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  Speaker 4: first off, tell our listeners where you're from and where
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  Speaker 4: you're calling from, and then let's dive in.
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  Speaker 2: Sure. So I'm calling from New York City. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, I did a joint degree, as you said,
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  Speaker 2: in psychology, spirituality and social work and worked in community
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  Speaker 2: mental health in the Bronx and then Brooklyn so out
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  Speaker 2: patient psych in patient psych as well as private practice.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, from the beginning of my training thirty
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  Speaker 2: some years ago, I've been working with trauma and trying
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  Speaker 2: to see what heals and what helps.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so I want to hear a little bit about
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  Speaker 4: how you got into this, and I know, you know
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  Speaker 4: we want to jump right in, but well, talk a
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  Speaker 4: little bit about the interest in the in the joint
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  Speaker 4: degree in Masters Diffinity and psychology, if you will.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think in some ways, as I look back,
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  Speaker 2: as many of us do, you kind of start to
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  Speaker 2: see that there's something some things that happened in my
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  Speaker 2: childhood that opened me to something bigger than myself. Some
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  Speaker 2: sense for me when I was playing sports, I kind
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  Speaker 2: of felt what's called the flow state or being in
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  Speaker 2: the zone, and felt a kind of interconnectedness, a sense
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  Speaker 2: of bigger consciousness that wasn't just my small smart self.
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  Speaker 2: That was kind of a loving sense of being that
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  Speaker 2: was bigger than my small self, and yet was a
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  Speaker 2: sally who I was, and I was just curious about
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  Speaker 2: what that was, who was looking at it, and kind
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  Speaker 2: of being in between kind of the hippies and the yuppies,
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  Speaker 2: you know. Graduating from college, I kind of combined the two.
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  Speaker 2: I was kind of stayed with the spirituality and the meditation,
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  Speaker 2: but then I brought in more of the yuppie the
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  Speaker 2: science really and said, well, let's you know, I'm not
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  Speaker 2: interested in in making this about religion. This is about
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  Speaker 2: consciousness and healing and reducing suffering. So what works? Who
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  Speaker 2: are the people throughout history who have found happiness and who,
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  Speaker 2: you know, what did they do? And so I traveled
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  Speaker 2: both went to graduate school and went on a fellowship
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  Speaker 2: to Sri Lanka, India Nepal and studied with teachers there
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  Speaker 2: and psychologists and local people working in social justice as
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  Speaker 2: well in those communities. During more community healing on many levels,
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  Speaker 2: and so there was something holistic about it that I
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  Speaker 2: felt wasn't just the medical model and wasn't just our
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  Speaker 2: internal psychological body.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, so you.
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  Speaker 5: Finish graduate school, you go on this fellowship and you
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  Speaker 5: have these experiences, you come back and start private practice
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  Speaker 5: or what.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of a combination. I come back and
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  Speaker 2: I finish social work school and then go into community
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  Speaker 2: and mental health. So for five years I was working
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  Speaker 2: in Brooklyn Mental Health outpatient mental health clinic in New
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  Speaker 2: York with you know, associated with a hospital and an
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  Speaker 2: outpatient clinic, and so you know, mostly access one diagnosed
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  Speaker 2: people who would come for psychotherapy, and so I started
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  Speaker 2: to work with them in a way that was kind
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  Speaker 2: of my version of mindfulness therapy, which was more parts
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  Speaker 2: based psychotherapy and was accessing not just kind of a
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  Speaker 2: mental mindfulness which I call deliberate mindfulness, but what I
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  Speaker 2: had learned in Nepal from my Tibetan Buddhist teacher, which
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  Speaker 2: is kind of a sense of this open hearted awareness,
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  Speaker 2: a sense of kind of loving presence that was, you know,
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  Speaker 2: that's who we feel like we are when we're in
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  Speaker 2: our most supported, when we're we're friends when we're walking
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  Speaker 2: in nature, when we're connected with things we love, like gardening,
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  Speaker 2: or there's a sense that we drop this small neurotic
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  Speaker 2: self referencing part of our brain and we open into
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  Speaker 2: this more spacious and pervasive sense of self. And so
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  Speaker 2: I started to see whether people who were struggling with
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  Speaker 2: you know, these access one issues could access that and
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  Speaker 2: whether it would help. And they could and it did.
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  Speaker 3: So what does that look like? What does I mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: Specific here with that look, I mean, I know what
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  Speaker 4: that means conceptually and theoretically.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I mean it kind of you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's very similar. It's very interesting. When I was practicing
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  Speaker 2: and then after you know, doing community mental health and
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  Speaker 2: started doing some private practice and consulting at different Columbia
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  Speaker 2: University and then doing more teaching of these workshops in
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  Speaker 2: meditation and combining the two, I developed a kind of
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  Speaker 2: system more clearly. And then my wife was a therapist.
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  Speaker 2: Went about ten years ago she went off to workshop
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  Speaker 2: with Dick Schwartz, who does internal family systems, and she
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  Speaker 2: came back and said, look, this guy does exactly what
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  Speaker 2: you do, except upside down. And I said, what do
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  Speaker 2: you mean? He goes? Well, the whole parts based thing
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  Speaker 2: and self is what you do. But he starts with
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  Speaker 2: parts and you start with self. So what I do
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  Speaker 2: is I literally I mean in some ways, I start
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  Speaker 2: with where the person is feeling trauma, or where they're
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  Speaker 2: feeling contracted or identified, or what the problem is. I
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  Speaker 2: have them feel it in their body and locate it.
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  Speaker 2: And then I have them really feel a kind of
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  Speaker 2: kindness or gratitude for that part for trying to get
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  Speaker 2: our attention and trying to be helpful, whether it's a
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  Speaker 2: kind of protective part or it's an exile who wants
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  Speaker 2: our attention. And then I ask.
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  Speaker 6: That part if it can give some space, and then
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  Speaker 6: I have people open, and then I become interested in
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  Speaker 6: what is it like to be aware from this spacious awareness?
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  Speaker 3: And so another part in a sense you're looking at Yes, So.
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  Speaker 2: This is interesting because this is what happens is that
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  Speaker 2: for many people they go into a mindful witness, which
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  Speaker 2: is another part that is like an observing ego or
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  Speaker 2: a smart, compassionate self like part. But then the key
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  Speaker 2: is can you open can you notice that part and
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  Speaker 2: then open further to that which is already aware that
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  Speaker 2: has a kind of spacious presence that isn't a part,
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  Speaker 2: it isn't located. So when I ask someone you know
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  Speaker 2: where you know, how do you feel towards this part?
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  Speaker 2: They say, I feel, I feel loving, and and then
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  Speaker 2: I say, well, where's the part located? And they can
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  Speaker 2: find it in their body? And I say, well, where's
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  Speaker 2: the boundary of you? And they literally say, well, there's
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  Speaker 2: no boundary where you were from. I'm aware from everywhere
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  Speaker 2: and here. And what does that feel like? Well, it
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  Speaker 2: feels free, it feels like I'm just me, So it's
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  Speaker 2: not kind of spaced out. It's not a psychedelic, trippy thing,
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  Speaker 2: but literally it's a very subtle. But when you access
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  Speaker 2: this feeling of kind of spacious, pervasive, open hearted feeling
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  Speaker 2: of self, it has this natural capacity of love, It
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  Speaker 2: has a huger feeling of space. Is important because now
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  Speaker 2: the traumatic energy and feelings that arise don't overwhelm the
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  Speaker 2: small egoic sense of self. They literally have more room
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  Speaker 2: to move and there's more, almost like a larger supportive
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  Speaker 2: presence to be with whatever is arising, no matter how
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  Speaker 2: angry or terrified or upset. The experience of emotional unburdening
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  Speaker 2: from apart there you're aware from not just another small part,
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  Speaker 2: but from this feeling of the you know what people
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  Speaker 2: call their ground of being.
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  Speaker 1: Is.
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  Speaker 4: It feels to me like you're bringing an awareness to
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  Speaker 4: what the cosmic awareness in a sense.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you could say that, and some people it feels cosmic,
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  Speaker 2: or some people say it's universal or it's life itself,
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  Speaker 2: but others just feel that, well, I don't know if
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  Speaker 2: it goes that far, but it's really big. It's really loving.
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  Speaker 2: Like they don't go even to let alone religion, they
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  Speaker 2: don't even go to you know, cosmic consciousness. They just
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  Speaker 2: go to, Well, this is like me when I'm walking
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  Speaker 2: in nature, but now it's here when I'm feeling the
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  Speaker 2: most upset. And that's the difference is it's like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: I thought I would have to go for a walk
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  Speaker 2: or sit and meditate to find this, but you're telling
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  Speaker 2: me it's here all the time. And that's essentially the
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  Speaker 2: feeling of who I am, and it is what you know,
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  Speaker 2: the wisdom traditions from around the world have called self
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  Speaker 2: true nature, no self self. They've called it, you know,
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  Speaker 2: essential being, and it's what when they've discovered this, they say,
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  Speaker 2: you know, that's what awakening or freedom or you know,
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  Speaker 2: loving happiness is like.
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  Speaker 4: So you're working using this in a sense to work
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  Speaker 4: not just with trauma, with death, anything and everything. And
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  Speaker 4: is it correct to say a lock that in a
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  Speaker 4: sense you are helping people to kind of distinguish themselves
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  Speaker 4: from the trauma, if you will, or the anxiety.
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  Speaker 2: Or the Yeah. So it's interesting thing because it is
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  Speaker 2: almost a separation, meaning it feels like it's completely taking
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  Speaker 2: your body over and then you step away and become
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  Speaker 2: aware of it, so there's almost a disidentification or detachment.
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  Speaker 2: Then you realize, oh, it is just a part of me,
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  Speaker 2: but you don't diminish it or try to deny it
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  Speaker 2: or make it go away. You kind of find its
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  Speaker 2: right size, like, well, okay, it's true, it's here, it's real,
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  Speaker 2: but it's not all of me. It's not the center
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  Speaker 2: of me. It's not where i'm aware from. It's what
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  Speaker 2: I'm aware of. So there's the big move. Then you're
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  Speaker 2: not in a detached witness or you may be initially.
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  Speaker 2: Then the difference between what I call deliberate mindfulness or
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  Speaker 2: mindfulness based therapy and this effortless mindfulness or being aware
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  Speaker 2: from self energy is that the witnessing awareness is also
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  Speaker 2: has this loving energy and is almost interconnected and embodied,
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  Speaker 2: so it's both outside and within, so it's not reidentified,
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  Speaker 2: but it's not detached. Witness that is acting like you.
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  Speaker 2: You know, your feelings are some distant experience, you know
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  Speaker 2: that is just coming and going. But it's a real
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  Speaker 2: juicy feeling from a bigger, loving presence that's with the
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  Speaker 2: shame and the fear, and it's aware of it and
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  Speaker 2: talking to it and asking it, how do you feel
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  Speaker 2: what's going on? And it can bear what seemed to
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  Speaker 2: be unbearable.
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  Speaker 4: I just want to remind everyone that I'm speaking with
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  Speaker 4: locke Kelly. He's the author of the book The Way
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  Speaker 4: of Effortless Mindfulness, a revolutionary guide for living and awakened life.
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  Speaker 4: Will have links here up the show notes page at
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  Speaker 4: the Trauma Tapists podcast dot com. All right, guys, this
• 14:39
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  Speaker 4: Now, all right, let's get back to UH Locke Kelly
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  Speaker 4: and my interview.
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  Speaker 3: And thanks so much so. You mentioned fear, you mentioned shame.
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  Speaker 1: It.
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  Speaker 4: You know, it's it's one thing to talk about it
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  Speaker 4: like we're talking about it now, and I can imagine,
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  Speaker 4: I mean, this this is pretty what UH multi layers
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  Speaker 4: stuff to when you're working with someone.
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  Speaker 5: What about when shame someone? I mean, And obviously my
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  Speaker 5: guess is that this responds to the different types of
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  Speaker 5: trauma out there.
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  Speaker 4: Obviously different are different, but talk a little bit about
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  Speaker 4: the challenges that you might come up against when dealing
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  Speaker 4: with certain traumas or people's feelings and so forth.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, first of all, it's just the acknowledgment
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  Speaker 2: of the whole parts based system that we all have,
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  Speaker 2: is that we're not just one ego, We're not just
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  Speaker 2: one Well I'm this way and I feel angry. No,
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  Speaker 2: I feel good, now, I feel bad, No, I feel good.
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  Speaker 2: They're literally the you know, which is about half of
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  Speaker 2: the therapies that are out there are parts based therapies,
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  Speaker 2: including you'd have to say Fredian in ego, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and super ego are really parts. So recognizing that there
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  Speaker 2: are you know, traumatized parts or exile parts or childlike parts,
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  Speaker 2: and then there are these protective parts. And so one
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  Speaker 2: of the most difficult things in accessing this more sense
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  Speaker 2: of true nature or self with a capital or loving
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  Speaker 2: presence is the protectors are saying, oh, no, I'm not
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  Speaker 2: letting you out, stay close, be contracted, and do not
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  Speaker 2: trust anybody who says that that being being doing what
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  Speaker 2: we've always done is the only way. So that becomes
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  Speaker 2: like working with the protective parts to say almost like, well,
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  Speaker 2: if you know, I see you, I'm aware of you.
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  Speaker 2: If we could just open up to this love that
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  Speaker 2: you're looking for and come right back, like a parent
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  Speaker 2: going to the kitchen to get some food and coming back,
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  Speaker 2: would you be willing to give it a try? And
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  Speaker 2: at first they may say no, and then eventually say, well,
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  Speaker 2: let's just check it out, okay. Would you be willing
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  Speaker 2: to step back and just you know, watch and wait.
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  Speaker 2: And then when the awareness opens to this subtler, more
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  Speaker 2: dynamically naturally compassionate self energy that protect the parts is
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  Speaker 2: oh my god, you mean I don't have to be
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  Speaker 2: doing all this work by myself, and they'll start to
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  Speaker 2: unburden and and allow more connection to that those exile
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  Speaker 2: traumatized parts. So that's one of the I think key
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  Speaker 2: timing things that it's not instant, but I've found that,
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  Speaker 2: you know, people, this is a natural capacity that is
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  Speaker 2: both healing to people who are you know, have had
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  Speaker 2: complex trauma, but also for people who are you know,
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  Speaker 2: have normal trauma like all of us, you know, for
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  Speaker 2: most of us anyhow, it just makes our life so
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  Speaker 2: much more full just accessing this dimension, which has been
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  Speaker 2: the goal of meditator traditions. And what I do is
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  Speaker 2: these small glimpses, these practices where it literally with your
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  Speaker 2: eyes open, you learn to shift awareness. And that's the
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  Speaker 2: thing I mean. Listening to me to describe this or
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  Speaker 2: any therapy sounds like it's a particular map and a
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  Speaker 2: particular method, But it's no more difficult than any map
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  Speaker 2: or method of any therapy. It's just particular, and yet
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  Speaker 2: it literally is the map of awakening that has been
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  Speaker 2: shared through the Wisdom traditions in all different cultures throughout time.
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  Speaker 2: So it's quite remarkable to see the results.
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  Speaker 3: So when you say.
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  Speaker 4: Awakening talk a little bit more about that, because when
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  Speaker 4: I hear that word, I probably wrongly think of, you know,
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  Speaker 4: an intense meditation practice that results hopefully after years, you know,
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  Speaker 4: it's some kind of an awakening, but realized that's not
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  Speaker 4: necessarily the case.
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  Speaker 3: But you're bringing this into the discussion.
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  Speaker 2: What do you mean, y, Yeah, So this is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: kind of bringing together East and west, the bringing together
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  Speaker 2: this word awakening, and basically what it means in a
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  Speaker 2: simple way, is kind of upgrading your operating system from
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  Speaker 2: a small, separate sense of self that's a thought based
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  Speaker 2: loop where ego function becomes ego identity and we start
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  Speaker 2: to literally feel like who we are is this looker
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  Speaker 2: that's in the middle of our head looking out of
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  Speaker 2: our eyes, and that small capacity is supposed to take
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  Speaker 2: care of all of our emotions and heal us and
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  Speaker 2: become smart enough. And that small sense of self cannot
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  Speaker 2: bear a fully intimate human emotional life. So the awakening
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  Speaker 2: is literally opening to realize there's a more spacious and
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  Speaker 2: inherent dimension of consciousness that isn't thought based, that is
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  Speaker 2: literally pre thought and wisdom mind. It's post thought. There's
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  Speaker 2: a feeling of it being almost like a continuous intuition
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  Speaker 2: or its accessed when people go into a flow state.
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  Speaker 2: So in a flow state, people are doing optimal functioning
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  Speaker 2: of sports, of music, of active in their life, and
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  Speaker 2: they're you know, the they're not referencing thoughts. They feel
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  Speaker 2: like they have no ego problems. They feel interconnected with
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  Speaker 2: all the other people in the orchestra, or the people
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: on the sports field, or their garden if they're gardening,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: and they feel dropped into their body more and more
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: loving and sensitive and yet more courageous capacity to be
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: with you know, who they are and what they're doing.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: And so we're just taking that flow feeling of this
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: and bringing it to our parts so that we've awakened
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: to an optimal way of living, which people have glimpses
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: of throughout their life. But the awakening tradition says, it's
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: almost like a developmental stage that you can learn how
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: to live from here.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Who would you say this book is for? Who's who's
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: your target here?
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, in many ways, it's those who have had
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: glimpses throughout their life of this kind of awakened consciousness
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: and who longing for it. It's for therapists who are
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: looking to help and are using you know, most for
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: those who are using some parts based system, so for
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of IFS therapists and gristalt therapists and psychosynthesis
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: and other types of therapists. And then for those who
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: literally just feel like, you know, is that all there is?
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: You know, I've kind of tried. I'm smart, I tried hard.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I got my ducks in a row, and either it
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: didn't work out or it did work out. I got
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of people it did work out. In New
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: York City. They come and they're like, well, I won
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: all the games. I got the money and the family
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: and the health, and and that's it. I'm like miserable.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: So this is the real opportunity for literally people to
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: you know, go to this next stage of human development
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: for the good of themselves and for our culture.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: So, you know, as you're talking and you're talking about
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: a clinical setting in a sense and working with a
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: particular client, the the question is though for me and
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: the curiosity, though, is the challenge with the demand.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: For the clinician in a sense?
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: Yes, right, So this requires I'm guessing a certain amount of.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: What inner work. I mean, just as you explained, this
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: is this is what this book is about.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: But this requires of you to maintain a certain amount
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: of awareness yourself.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, I mean, and I think, I think, I mean,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: if I really when I've talked to any group of therapists,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: they kind of are half doing it too for their
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: own good in other words, and they're pretty high standards
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: and in other words, they're really helping people. They've got
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: a compassionate capacity, and they want to be living a
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: fully intimate human life at the highest level. So this
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: is for them because the more you have this capacity
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: to awaken, the more you can give to your clients.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: And it's fairly simple. It's not any more complex than
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: any method and map. You know. A little example would be,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: you know, working with somebody who's like, who is you know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: impatient doing self cutting and just asking a client a client,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: so are you aware of a part of yourself that
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: wants to hurt yourself? And the client would kind of like, well, yeah,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: well where's that part? What do you mean where? Oh, like,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: well can you find that part? And they say, well, yeah,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: it's like right in my mask, in my face and
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: down my throat and to my belly. Okay, And now
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: are you aware of a part that doesn't want to
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: hurt yourself. And they're kind of standing there going, well, yeah,
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: there's kind of a little like over and you know
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: one side of my body there's kind of a little
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: softness kind of part. And then I say, well, who's
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: aware of those two parts? And they kind of go, oh,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: well I am really well where are you? Oh, I'm here,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I'm everywhere. And literally, that simple little you know, with
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: somebody in complete distress, that simple technique shows them experientially
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: that which they need to heal their trauma.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: So by what distancing themselves in a sense, by giving
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: them a certain or empowering them.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: It's really like a consciousness thing. So it's not like
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: you're not doing anything. You're literally it's almost like consciousness.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's the way this habit of constellating our
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: consciousness in this thought based lookers and these parts, and
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: you're dropping into a subtler, more open and witnessing dimension
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: which is always here, but we're just closed down and
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: doing this self referencing, which is what the neuroscience. I
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: go to a bunch of neuroscience and you can see
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: in the fMRI how the brain changes by opening to
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: this awareness, which is which feels equally inside and out,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: which is kind of the unusual thing, but everyone knows.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Like when I ask people, all right, what do you
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: do for fun? What do you do in your life
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: that gives you joy? And they'll say gardening, walking in nature?
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: So name what is it that you feel when you
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: are enjoying that? And literally, if you look at it,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: it's this. They shift their consciousness into an interconnected, loving, peaceful, uh,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: feeling of being themselves that's not a thought based, that's
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: not a part based, but can be with while they're
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: walking in nature. They could be, you know, thinking about
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: what's going on with their family members, but they're doing
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: it from a bigger capacity and a sense of true
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: nature or you know, that feeling of being well.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: All right, once again, the book is The Way of
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: Effortless Mindfulness, Revolutionary Guide for living an awakened life. Again,
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: we'll have this linked up, all right, Locke, how about
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: any go to book recommendations that you have, whether trauma
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: related or not, or mindfulness related or not.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: What would you like to share?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, besides, besides, my book is The Way
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of Effortless Mindless Yeah, I mean, I do like books
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: by Dick Schwartz, So Internal, the Basic Book on Internal
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Family Systems. Okay, that is my is my first book
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: that I would recommend, and that has it basically gives
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: a model of what I'm talking about. It doesn't go
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: as much into self. So Dick Schwartz and I have
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: taught these workshops together, five day workshops in Italy and
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Esselyn and in New York, and an online course where
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I bring more distinguishing what a self is and he brings,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: you know, distinguishing the map of the parts within. And
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: so that book would probably be the best.
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: Awesome, Okay, and you mentioned the course. Can we find
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: those on your site or yes.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: So you can find a course that Dick and I
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: did online that's you know, Evergreen course. And there's other
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: events and other things on my website.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Awesome, Awesome, our lock. It's pleasure. This is intense.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Well, and I mean that in the best possibility. And
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I also realize how it's just crazy to think that
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: we could fit something like this in thirty minutes. But
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: I don't really want to thank you coming on here
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: and making
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: Us aware of what you have going on, because it's
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: it's exciting, So thank you so much,