Latest / Monero Talk / MoneroPay, Metronero and the Monero ATM w/ Irem Kuyucu & Laurynas Cetyrkinas | EPI 330

Transcript

MoneroPay, Metronero and the Monero ATM w/ Irem Kuyucu & Laurynas Cetyrkinas | EPI 330 · Monero Talk

• Alrighty, we are live. What's going on guys? How you doing? It's a nice midnight in here. What about you? I just got home from my Fiat job. It's about 6 30 over here in New York. Long day, long day. Juggling Monero things on the side. How about you guys? What's your deal? Are you guys like kind of full time working on Monero stuff or you got day jobs as well? I mean, share what you're willing to share, but... Yeah, I have multiple day jobs. And I would just say like, one is working at an international company as an SRE, Side Trade Ability Engineer. Second one is personal business called Digilol, which we're presenting right now. And other things either related to Digilol when it comes to Monero or just some open source projects. Yeah, I used to have a day job, but I quit. So now I'm full time working on our company and we accept Monero there. So maybe it counts as Monero stuff, but I have also full time studies. Okay. What's the full time working on which company? Me. Oh, the Digilol. No, no, it's for you. For you. Oh yeah, Digilol. Yes, our company. Okay. Okay. Okay. So give the quick intro. Give the intro of yourselves and of what it is. And then I will go ahead and play the intro over here, but go ahead and give yourselves a quick intro to the audience. The quick pitch of what Digilol is, and we'll get into the details, I'm sure. Oh, a quick pitch. So Digilol is an IT company, remote only IT company for managed hosting, DevOps, programming, front and back end, and penetration testing. One of the bigger things as of now is penetration testing. All of these services can be paid in Monero. Orpiet. You guys have had some Monero paying customers, I'm sure. Yeah. Lots. Yeah. Mostly. And now like an intro of yourselves. Who are you guys? So you're working on this, but tell us more. Obviously what you're willing to reveal, but you know, most people, they probably don't know who you guys are. I'm Lorena Shettirikina from Lithuania, the director of Digilol that founded in 2021. 2022 actually. Yeah. I believe. It has 2022. My name is Yiram. I'm originally from Turkey, but I now live in Europe in Lithuania. I'm a co -founder of Digilol. We founded together. I worked in actually corporate several roles as a backend engineer and a system administrator and an penetration tester. So I'm like a dekofold trades master of long. I think I did a lucky job. Very cool. I've seen you guys in action at MoneroCon. So you guys definitely, you're definitely hackers, right? You guys, you guys. They're all familiar with this. ATM all the way. We need a better name than ATM. So we're at 17 live viewers, guys, like and share, like and share. Let's get the word out. I'm going to go ahead and play the intro here and then we will continue with the show. But please retweet. We need to get a lot more viewers in here. I will be tweeting it out myself right now. Okay. Okay. Okay. 24 live viewers, guys, like and share, like and share. Let's get the word out. Hey, retweet. I got the Digilol team. Dude, I'm horrible at saying this, saying this, Dave. Can you guys say it slow? I suppose he says the girl. It's fine. What is that? Does it have a meeting? Is this Esperanto for something or? No, no, it's just digi plus lol, you know, because we're laughing for our competition as about it. I love it, I love it. All right, very, very creative name. So yeah, what do we what should we get into first? Let's let's talk about let's talk about the Monero ATM. That's when I first met you guys, you were at MoneroCon, you were working on this Monero box ATM that I was literally built out of a pizza box. Quite impressive. But I found this to be a very, very novel, interesting approach to an ATM, kind of a way to do and correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understood it is wasn't really a traditional ATM, the way the software was designed, but more of kind of like a peer to peer ATM, right, where some people are providing Monero, some people are providing cash, and the box is kind of the in between exchange. Go ahead. Yeah, get it. Future. That is an idea. Oh, okay. So far, that's not a period. It's operator and consumer a bit. Okay, the peer to peer part is something I got excited about and thought was it was quite novel. Is anybody doing that yet? Have you guys seen that implemented in any way? There's been a white paper for years in the Monero community flowing around about this. And you can see the report of this paper on our Monero ATM website, which is atm .monero .is. It's been it's not written by us. It's been here for a long time. And we're just found it fascinating. And it would be interesting to accomplish something like that in the future. Do you think it's do you guys think it's a viable idea? Or is there perhaps reasons why, you know, practically it wouldn't really work? Well, it is a viable idea. Not sure if it's viable in Europe, but a lot of research needs to be done. Algorithm needs to be developed for this. Cool, cool, cool. And the way I envision it, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like you would be a system where people can, where those who are providing cash would be kind of the makers in the deal, right? Because they would always be the ones filling up the box with cash. And you'd only want so much money, cash in the box at any one time, right? You wouldn't want people to be able to put in hundreds of thousands of dollars for safety reasons, right? Otherwise it'd become too much of a physical target. So people would be, yeah, I guess practical reasons too. And so people would be, sorry, you can say, so people would be putting cash in. And then with the hopes of, you know, like even if enough Monero, the way I see it is Monero is never actually in the machine, right? So you go, you put cash in, and then when there's a buyer of that cash, that's when you receive the Monero. When somebody else comes to the machine and is a buyer of the cash, that's when they receive the Monero. And the Monero is never sent through some centralized service through the machine itself. It's sent from the buyer of the cash to the seller of the cash. Is that a good way of understanding it? Or am I talking about some new idea? Maybe a better way of understanding it is like, it's a Havana machine, it's a peer -to -peer trade. Some people have to put cash, some people have to put in Monero, and then they exchange it across themselves. So that's a lot. Actually, we had, we were thinking of two versions of it. One is, like you described, it will be peer -to -peer. And the older version is the version that we called unbanked projects. Lots really peer -to -peer, but again, the sell and buy actions are incentivized based on the fullness of the cash box. So operator only makes profits in form of Monero, and the cash box is emptied and filled by people. So the operator doesn't have to go to a bank or doesn't have to have yet. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's the way I was imagining it. I got very excited about that. And it obviously was from hearing your guys idea initially, and then I was thinking about it. And then actually, when I was just recently down in Mexico preparing for Monero -Topia, I was thinking kind of more deeply about the idea because one of the problems that you see when you try to kind of grow Monero adoption is obviously you need a way for people to move out of Monero into their local cash currency. Right. So being able to do that in a KYC free way would be amazing. And it seems like something like this new fangled Monero ATM we're talking about could be a great solution for that. Kind of like you said, like a Hovino in a box or a local Monero, essentially, in a box. In Mexico, at Huerta Roma, where we're hosting the conference, obviously, we're going to get the entire marketplace there to accept Monero. But when we leave, are they going to continue to accept Monero? And actually, I met some vendors last weekend who were there last year. And there were at least two of them who were still accepting Monero because I bought stuff off of them. They had their Monero sticker on. They told me how they actually received 50 additional Monero transactions. One of this one guy received 50 additional Monero transactions since the last conference. So there are those like it worked. But for others to do it and for us to make it a thing where the marketplace is always accepting Monero, not just when Monero topias there, but on every weekend, there needs to be some way for them to very easily at the end of the day, if they feel like they have too much Monero, to move it into pesos. And we're basically going to an ATM like this. So that's why I was thinking a lot about the idea and then thinking about how it could kind of work in a way where like you're saying, there is no, it really wouldn't be a money transmission machine at all. There is no bank involved. There really don't even need to be fees. It can just be kind of this open source piece of hardware that's hosted in some area, right? So in this case, Huerta Roma, and people are just using it as a community. Well, I mean, it's unavoidable. Someone has to build a machine. Someone has to maintain it to repair its electricity, you know. Yeah, I was thinking that could potentially even be covered with like sponsors, you know, like people that want to sponsor the machine, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, put ads on the screen. Just to avoid those fees. Right. And then when you get rid of those fees to also legally, you're really you're really eliminating a lot of the attack factor there right from the state, because now it's not even this, this, you know, this device that's making money off of transactions. Yes. Right. Yes. Very interesting. So how do we get this going at Monerotopia? I guess ultimately is ultimately what I want to ask you. I know I was asking you guys a little bit on the side on, I think, I think we're like a telegram group or a signal group or something. You guys are coming down to Monerotopia. Super excited for that. You'll be presenting on, I guess, Digilol and Monero Pay and the ATM. But wondering, is it too far fetched to think we can maybe start the hacking together of a Monero ATM like this that that could be a maybe house that worth aroma? Probably not for this year, because it takes lots of time to do it. Because last machine we spent, oh, the final assembly took us a day. The first time we saw the machine ever was when we arrived into Prague. That was the first time we saw the machine. But we were developing for it like long in advance. We had the bill acceptor delivered to us. We were developing on it and then assembled it fully in the Czech Republic. Actually, it might not be too far fetched if there's like a second hand line shot that has a listing for a fully featured kiosk of some sorts with a QR code scanner and bill acceptor in a display. That would be possible. Just install the software and pray the bill acceptor that comes with the machine uses like regular CC talk or standard protocol that we already support. And also pestle. Oh, yeah. Programmed for pestles already because we will be buying this in Mexico. So what kind of like use machine would display? Like what would it internet cost like, you know, like this kind of device that people used to use maybe or still use on an all about Mexico, where you pay some money and then you can use the machine to access email. Yes, it's a bit weird or just use a browser. Apparently, this was a popular thing in Europe. So there are those floating around. What are they called? Internet. Oh, an internet kiosk. Okay. Or gambling slot machines. You know, the those also are similar. We okay, or gambling slot machines. All right, guys. Anybody who's listening wants to help start start start searching. Let's see if we can find one. I mean, they're probably not that expensive, right? Some use somebody's got one sitting somewhere that's like probably like not plugged in. They don't have a second use. I guess nowadays. And yeah, it's just e -waste. And I feel like Mexico would be a place where you can find something where you can find something like this, right? Yeah, Mexico City 13 million people. Actually, like 20 million people. Um, all right, very cool. So maybe maybe we'll look into that. Maybe we'll look into that. So I guess let's let's get into let's do any any more on the Monero ATM topic. Do you guys have anything else? We'll cover it. We have slides. We'll cover it. Oh, okay. You want to bring up the slide? Because I was going to go from each thing like Monero pen, you know, the ATM. We have the slides. We'll briefly cover it. We have some pictures. Do you want to do that? You want to do your slides and then we'll, we'll ask questions. Okay, very cool. Yeah. Do you see my screen? Uh, let me bring it up. Hold up. We got 94 live views, guys, like, retweet, get the word out, subscribe, subscribe. All right. Your screen is up. Okay. Yeah. So who are we? We actually talked about this. Okay. There we go. Here we go. Here we go. Nice. Oh, wow. Here it is. It's everything. All in one. Wait, go back to slide one. Go back to slide one for a second. Yes, title, Monero pay Metro Nino and the minute. Okay. Fantastic. These names, guys, these names. I'm so what can I call you guys for, for sure. Like, uh, what should I be calling each of you? Uh, for me, Iram. Irami Laudinas. Laudinas. Okay. I'll just call it legal team. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to try. I'm going to try. All right. Continue. Continue on. Okay. So who are we? We already described it. Yeah. We're the 1%. We are hackers and they're good looking. This is, this is not hot. What do we do? So we have been developing Monero related projects since 2021. Here is a picture of my first commit for the project called Monero pay. What do we do other than developing Monero pay? Well, we provide it and cybersecurity services since 2022 under our Estonian business called digital. And we obviously accept Monero for our services. Yeah. We have a bunch of, uh, Monero -related projects. Monero pay is a payment processor. I think it has like more than a hundred stars now. Uh, we have the Monero ATM project and Metro and arrow. It's still in the making. It's been like a year or so. Uh, it's going to be a checkout system. It's like a front end for Monero pay. We also have gone on arrow, which is a fork of another goal client binary for modern world advocacy. There is like a lot of these forks, but they are riddled with bugs, uh, when it comes to Jason fields. So ours has like bug fixes for them. And we also have time on support for, um, having like production readiness and concurrency. So how did it all start? Uh, why did we start developing for Monero? We've heard Monero users, uh, before that, but we came across Monero that's when we were inspired by it. So basically it was, uh, like a gambling game where you guess the next block hash. So we also thought of making a casino, but that never actually happened. Yeah. And if those were unaware of Monero and I'm pretty sure it's dead now, but you would guess the last character of the upcoming block and bid on it some amount. Yeah. The site was proprietary. It is now defined. It was sold once the back end, but I just visited today it's gone. So we were like looking into solutions how we can, uh, make this casino. How can we handle one error payments? And we didn't find the good payment processor. So we created Monero pay, which is not around somewhere because before we created Monero pay, we didn't do some research about the name. Apparently there was ransomware called Monero pay, but no, it's not for the late hand. It's a payment gateway. This day when you search whether a pay ransomware is at the top, it has very good SEO. Maybe it's not anymore. And why did it be created is because the like existing libraries or processors for Monero used integrated addresses, which is like defunct now. It's it's in them. You command it, I think. Yeah, it's not recommended. There was some talks. So we use sub addresses that the proper way, right. And as we're supposed to use, it also uses wallet RPC, which is basically the official Monero code for handling the wallet. We don't want to like use any C bindings for maintenance reasons and to stay up to date with Monero code. So there's no breaking changes when Monero gets updated and we minimize issues of like downtime. Let's if you actually use something like C bindings for it. Also, I think back then there were there were no like C bindings that were that we had confidence in that it was going to be maintained for a while because we didn't want to maintain it ourselves. And it uses so with Monero pay, you can use SQLite or PostgreSQL. In the beginning, it was just PostgreSQL, but now we support SQLite. Monero pay also works with view only and regular full wallets. And the full wallets was especially like our main feature for this payment processor, because we wanted to handle both incoming and outgoing payments, not only incoming, because for regular business, you also need to handle refunds, right? You cannot just accept money and then, oh, well, how do I refund now? Or if it's some sort of automated system where you handle out incoming and outgoing payments like a casino, etc. You also need to handle outgoing payments. That's why we support full wallets and also view only wallets view only wallets obviously don't have the feature of sending out transactions. Yeah, we have documentation at this address. Here's our cool logo in the in the slides of this project, pixel art obviously. It's a fat pain we're holding some sort of a monero coil. I'm actually working on a new logo, but I didn't make it to time. And we have some documentation down at this address, monero pay .eu. Several projects today use monero pay and probably more than we know, there are more projects than we know, because a lot of people join the matrix chat and they keep asking questions, but they never actually tell us what they're making. So we're speculating that there are more people, but we don't have telemetry. So we don't know. Yeah. And what can you make? I don't know. 8am, like last year. A song made the like lost or paid relays. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, we only heard a bit not that long ago, actually, just found it on the internet. Yeah. And you can even like ransomware with monero pay. So I made this for my coursework at university. So it's a monero pay powered ransomware that isn't the original monero pay ransomware, which wasn't powered by monero pay. Yeah, educational irony. And recently we learned that monero noto has a post system that uses monero pay, but you know better. Yes. You got it right here. Oh, yes. Nice. And also our monero ATM project. And here you can see sticker. Not sure you probably have one of them, don't you? Just like this. No, I don't have that sticker. You don't have, we had it at MoneroCon this year. I missed out, man. Bring him to Monerotopia. We'll surely do. And more. When you left. We do. I think John had some, that guy that invited us to talk. So we'll steal from him some. And about the history of this project, he just wants to make an ATM. Yeah. I mean, it was there. It's so deep reasoning behind it. We just thought it would be a good hardware project. And then we start, we started this matrix group and then someone in there wants to meet in Fostel. And then someone introduced us to like, a lot of new information about the unbanked project and previous attempts at this monero ATM. Yeah. And also more about the hardware, building these kinds of machines. Because when we were on our own without this person, we tried to buy the equipment and we were like going to these shops that sell kiosk hardware. And these shops are really not straightforward. You cannot just add the equipment to your cart and buy it. You need to fill an inquiry form. They often the long list of prizes and they reject hobbyists. Both quarters only usually. And you only need to be corporate. I think it's a defense against people buying them and reverse engineering because the kiosk hardware industry has really poor security. We previously even found very severe vulnerabilities in one of the vendors websites and database. Yeah. Even the firmware itself. You want to cover this, where is this? Not really. It's just some cool artwork that shows the monero ATM. The last iteration of the ATM has a web interface because in MoneroCon 2023, it used to be TOI, the terminal interface. The web interface was actually done by my classmates. I'm in the base of it. Like it was 50% done by me, 50% done by him. And then we had another classmate who designed the ATM pages, the views in Figma. And this was actually for another coursework of mine in university that year we were having this group project. So this is where this imagery is from. The lecturer told us to make some sort of a graph, but I don't remember the term for it. And this is a cool feeling ATM. It's beautiful. So we'll mention a couple of different builds. It began 2023, the ATM project. This is what we brought to MoneroCon 2023. It was made out of a couple of pizza boxes and a Raspberry Pi screen, Aliexpress coin acceptor, the bill acceptor we managed to buy from Romania and a QR code scanner. Pretty hacked up there. Yeah, the bill acceptor was faulty. So we got partially found on it by the coin acceptor. Oh, yes, the coin acceptor from China at the back of the box says it's okay to eat the whole pizza by yourself. There's a print. But I have a picture here, do we? No, but it's on the GitLab and read me with the instructions, the oil epistle box. And this is one year later, we actually brought a metal ATM, human sized ATM. Yes, this was previously an internet kiosk, but well, when we got a hold of it, we actually took a look at the disk it came with. There was an assets belonging to gambling games. So I guess it was multipurpose. Well, it was internet kiosk, but you know, when you have a browser, and such devices don't really have a use in this century, people would go to gambling websites and use it as a slot machine, I guess, bypassing regulations. That's my guess. So our friend bought this in Germany, he wants to pick it up, then he delivered it to his home in Belgium, took out the bill acceptor, sent it to us in Twania, we started programming for it on just using a regular computer. Then we took that after we programmed everything, we took that bill acceptor, we flew to MoneroCon 2024 in Prague, and our friend delivered it with this mini van from Belgium to Czech Republic, and we finished assembling it and installing the software during the MoneroCon first day. Yeah, the assembly of the hardware and solution to software all happened during the first day. But this arm, like they're on the right of this machine, like there is this QR code scanner that is massive, it's connected to a 3D printed hollow arm that we also managed to model and 3D print like four hours before our flight. And it was very late. Yeah, because these machines don't come with QR code scanners, so we had to hack something together. And we could go poke a hole and that's obviously tick metal. And Metronero has what's been mentioned previously, it said frontend for Monero Bay. We used to have a CCS proposal, but we withdrawn from it because like there was little feedback. So this was in private development for a very long time. And then we had it as like our internal tooling as a company, we were using it for some of our SaaS offers. We are going to open source this. And we'll talk about this a lot more during the conference. Yeah, we'll probably do a line demo of this. Yeah, it's an active development still, but we want to present this and this is essentially a direct competitor to BTCP server without all the headaches. Amazing, amazing. Go ahead, continue. Monero only, easy to install, more secure, perhaps, probably. And made by us here. That's the last line. Or not the end, obviously. We have lots of work to do, man. We're waiting for the conference. You guys are an amazing duo. You guys are doing big things. Very excited to have you coming down to Monero Topia in person. I know it's going to lead to other things, just being around other Monero, obviously like you did at Monero Com, but hopefully you'll meet some different people at Monero Topia too. The hackathon at Monero Topia is going to be based on BTCP server. Are you guys aware of that? Well, we have to hack it then and delete it. I was wondering, maybe we could have you guys be part of the hackathon in some way where you're working on, we get people to help work on Monero pay stuff while they work on BTC pay server stuff. I mean, I don't know. We can compare which one installs fast. Yeah. I could put you in touch with Brindle. He's going to be running the hackathon. Basically, they're just looking to... It's more of a build -a -thon. Basically, make sure BTC pay server is ready or Monero is ready for BTC pay server once it upgrades so that people can continue to use Monero through BTC pay server. What is it about BTC pay server that you guys perhaps don't like? Do you think it's faulty in some ways? We have experience installing it and system administration. It's absolutely terrible when it comes to resource usage, when it comes to installation procedure. The installation procedure is very invasive. There is this installation script that uses deprecated version of Docker. First of all, it does not work. You compose very old versions of them. It's very invasive. It modifies your whole operating system for no reason. Yeah, although it's Docker -based, it's still a lot of myself. It's crazy. It was written by someone who has no clue. It was a package. Also, it's written in C -sharp. We're not biggest fans of the Microsoft's language in the open source community. More than that, massive performance issues as well, I'd say. Obviously, it's Bitcoin first. We want something from Monero. We cannot just leach off the existing project that's been made for Bitcoin. I'm pretty sure we need something of our own, have all the features that Monero has to offer, and provide first -class citizen support for it. That's about it. Awesome. Awesome. You guys saw the Monero topia. It'll be running. Hopefully, we'll have two of them up and running for people to use during the conference so the marketplace could use it to more seamlessly send transactions, connecting their cake wallet or whatever to the local nodes they'll be running there. Like you mentioned, it does have Monero Pay built into it. The idea being that it becomes a device to receive payments on. Eventually, ideally, it would connect into existing POS systems, but it could be used as a physical device that would show a QR code. You could receive your Monero and it does better accounting than if you're just using a traditional wallet. So excited for that, trying to slowly turn the Noto into a POS system using Monero Pay. I haven't messed around with it much yet, but basically, yeah, you put in your Monero receive address and then your private view key. It doesn't send payments like you were saying Monero Pay has the capability of handling both, but this is really just a device for receiving payments, which I think is a pretty cool concept, especially in terms of safety too. There's no private key housed on this thing in any way, so you don't have to trust the hardware. You don't have to worry about somebody stealing the device. You don't have to worry about the people that are using it. Perhaps they're running a shop and they're just a clerk and they're using this device on an access to a private key in any way. So it would just function as a way for somebody at a store to receive payments for a terminal. Well, I can say something about Monero Pay. So you said it doesn't have a private key, et cetera. With Monero Pay, it's a tool meant for developers, so it doesn't have to actually be on the end -user device like this Monero Noto. It could be on a server, then it could have some backend around it, and the key is outside of this user -interpacing device. So that's exactly how the Monero ATM worked. There were no keys on the device and that would be insecure, as you're saying. Yeah, the ATM has to use the transfer functionality, so there's a remote -secured Vault Monero Pay instance with the send key. But what you're doing is also secure, obviously. Yeah, but you cannot do refunds, which might be important for business to use this as a POS. Yeah, we'll have to think about that. I guess my... Yeah, yeah, no. Since the Metronero will interface with Monero Pay, you could technically use it as this administrative interface. As you deploy it in one computer, perhaps the store manager can have that. And then there's a bit travel function, so the refunds can be initiated in that single place. Yeah, explain Metronero a little bit more. Obviously, I don't want to say too much because you're here for that to deeply at the conference, but it's essentially a POS system. Is that like the best way of describing it? It's not really a POS system. It's basically like very similar to ETC Pay. Yeah, it is similar. Also, JavaScript free, very important feature. But it is possible to have JavaScript free checkout pages. For example, if there's an online store operating on Tor, they can use Monero Pay. They can communicate to Metronero API, generate this checkout page and this checkout page is JavaScript less. It can refresh without the need of having JavaScript support, so it will just work fine for them. But there's also the option to have JavaScript support for better looking checkout pages where it shows you maybe a number of confirmations, reactivity, something that looks modern. We have 187 live viewers right now. Guys like, retweet, let's keep getting more people in here. Let's start on our GitHub. You guys are amazing. I'll say it again. I'm very impressed. I'm very impressed by you two. We have a Super Chat coming up. Monero Super Chat from xmrchat .com. XMR cash tip the dollar. Doug, I like these awesome interviews and XMR chat is awesome. Are you guys familiar with XMR chat? No. So we developed this xmrchat .com. It's a way to send Super Chats with Monero and I could bring it up on screen here. So anybody that's listening, please consider sending us a Super Chat via xmrchat .com slash MoneroTalk. It's super easy to do. You don't need to create an account or anything. Just go to xmrchat .com slash MoneroTalk. You enter in your username. You can make up whatever name you want. You put in your message and that's just going to ask you to send a Monero payment to an address for whatever you want to tip and it's completely peer -to -peer and you can send as little as whatever. You can send one cent but use it. The more we use Monero, the better off we are is what I like to say around here. We actually have something similar for a Monero ATM project. We also have some tool that uses MoneroPay and then you can go to the website, you know, put in a message. It generates your server address using MoneroPay API. You donate and then after it confirms, it sends that message that a donator provided into our matrix room. Very cool. And what does this xmrchat thing use this in the back? It's using LWS, I believe. Yeah, so when I created my xmrchat account, it's the same thing. You just put in your view key and it's just scanning and letting you know when tips have been received. So yeah, completely peer -to -peer. Very cool, man. It's very exciting times right now, Monero, right? So do you guys work on other cryptos or are you really interested mostly in Monero related stuff? Mostly Monero, to be honest. I love it. Now, why? Can you explain? We have no use case for anything else, basically. And why is that? Explain how you do it deeper. It's tainted. Monero cannot get tainted. We can't accept it as a business and we're not scared of it being, you know, black, like, refused by exchanges, etc. It doesn't cause us headaches. We have clients that we don't really care what I see. We only ask the minimum information required for, like, Estonian invoicing requirements. And we don't know these people and these people ask us to develop or work on big projects and they want to pay sometimes a lot of money. And if this money is tainted and it's not Monero, then we're in big trouble. It ends in a, I guess, you know, like centralized exchange accounts or some other payments gateway. They will ask a lot of questions. We might decide to store funds, but Monero keeps us safe. I love it. I love it. I love it. I mean, it's amazing that, you know, it's so obvious to you guys and to me, right? Like, money doesn't work well when it comes with the history and then you're potentially responsible for where that money came from. Crazy, crazy. So I love it. You guys obviously are super based and understand why Monero. Tom, tip 25 cents at John's. Is this a reference to you guys? What is it? It's John. It's the guy who's apartment we're staying right now. It's our friend. Is that the guy who came with you with the ATM? Is that that? Oh, okay. I love that guy. The one that that's that delivered. Okay. Maybe we have him. Come on. He's tired. You know, five in the morning. Is he coming to Monero topia by any chance? No, he said maybe next year. Okay. Awesome, dude. Awesome. So you guys are talking about, um, like online checkout that that is definitely a problem that needs to be solved. And something like Monero pay, especially the Metro narrow that you're talking about could really be the ultimate solution there. Like, for example, at Monero topia .com, we currently use the Monero gateway. Are you guys familiar with the Monero gateway? So we use, we use WordPress and then we use a man, a WooCommerce plugin. And then little, it's a little janky. It doesn't say it's not super smooth. Sometimes like it doesn't really integrate well and show that a transaction has confirmed all the time. I don't know what's going on there. Obviously I'm not technical enough to know. It's super cool that it's very much peer to peer, right? Like we received the transactions directly and all that. Um, but yeah, thoughts on that, right? So for, for people, you know, noobs like me that aren't super techy, we're just trying to accept Monero. Maybe we're running a WordPress site, which is, you know, millions and millions of people do, right? They're running WordPress or using WooCommerce to do their, to run their e -commerce site. Um, how do we solve that in a, in a plug and play way with like something like your building? Is that like a neck, just the next easy step to do it? Yeah, we need to make Metro narrow production ready. And then we need to write WordPress plugin for it or, uh, press the chat or anything. Yes. I think you'd have tremendous, tremendous use for that. Um, have you guys messed around with, what's that? We could accelerate the process of writing plugins if there's interest and there's people willing to pay for it. Okay. Well, uh, yeah, I think we, you know, I could help you guys do a, you know, a fundraiser for that or, you know, I'll, I'll throw some funds in for that. Um, I think there's a real need there. I mean, there's, there's a lot of people that use, uh, WooCommerce WordPress to run their websites. Um, have you guys messed around with the Monero gateway at all? You don't, you don't have you, have you experimented with it at all? Does it use block explorer or something to fetch the data from? I don't really know what's happening behind this. That's, we don't like it. It's not private. It's bad. It can also be a man in the middle. It can be faked by the provider. Oh, I didn't even know that. I mean, it was kind of the original solution for anybody doing a WordPress site with, I think it's the only WooCommerce solution. And the project's website is like monerointegrations .com or something, right? Yeah. All the PHP plugins. I forget the guy's name that built it. It's Sirhack. Yes, Sirhack. The same guy who published the original Monero book. Um, yeah. Awesome dude. Amazing that he built it, but it needs more love or we just need a better solution at this point, which, so I'm hopefully, I'm hoping that, uh, MetroNero could be that, could be that solution. Cause, cause otherwise, yeah. Like the other option is BTC pay server. You know, you guys have your criticism as of, um, but what's good there is it, it's highly developed. There's a big community behind it. Uh, a lot of people are using it in Bitcoin. I think even at Monero Con, right? They were using BTC pay on their other terminal for accepting payments for being or so. Because they get all of us, the infrastructure sponsor. We were, we were hosting a pretext for topics for them, meet space server or things. We did all of that. Yeah. We have Tom Siv, 25 cents. Can you talk more about the malicious nodes you found? Oh, I mean the, the, one of the articles we posted on our website. So basically there were some videos leaked, you know, can say a lot more. I think most of us have seen the chain analysis video, the leaked one. Yeah. And, uh, there in one of the, well, in the video you could see some addresses, like a minor node addresses. Yeah. And it's sort of transactions and some of the transactions have RPC info attached and, uh, this information has HTTP headers, uh, address, timestamp, whatever. But the interesting part is with the HTTP header, because there was a host header being sent and it was a load that's vulnerable .com or org, I think. Yeah. And that basically you could make an assumption that under that domain name, there was some malicious node, right? Or a proxy because of the host header. And that particular domain name was not real node. It was an aggregator for existing nodes. So basically it pointed to multiple IP addresses of random nodes. And, uh, our guess was just like that it would not make sense much, much sense for something like a chain analysis to create their own dedicated nodes because they're expensive to run. They require lots of storage. So you can just in theory put engine X and unpoint it to some random regular node ran by, you know, cake wall through whatever, and then have a cheap way to log, uh, requests, HTTP requests going to, to the minor node API. Yeah. So basically we don't know for sure if this is really being done, but logically speaking, it makes a lot of sense for channel analysis to do. They don't host real nodes. They're just sitting in the middle. When you make a request to them, they are logging your details, the IP address, any headers that you send. And then on the other end, there is a real load ran by a real volunteer. So they were leech, they're leeching and they're spying on people. But what we know for sure is that the servers that were once served under node .monoroworld, it was a DNS round. So there was, so node .monoroworld was pointing to multiple IP addresses at a given time. And when we look at these IP addresses, and we inspect their past DNS record history as well, we see that I forgot the domain name. They were also once served on their XMR nodes, like dallas .xmr node, some other texas .xmr node, I think a bunch of subdomains on their XMR node. So we did some offsets. We looked up dorked for xmr node, and we found the owner of these nodes on Reddit. And then we found him on matrix as well. So we asked them, why was your nodes in the chain analysis video? Do you know about this? And he has zero clue that it was there. And he told us that he hasn't been operating these nodes for a very long time. So we found out that chain analysis probably went to his hosting provider, either by luck, got assigned these IP addresses, or they kindly asked hosting provider to be assigned these addresses. And they were serving malicious nodes in the basically IP address of a previous legitimate owned. Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous .org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Sneaky sneaky right say that I mean Shane analysis using these malicious notes in and in a way where they're doing it Like you said very cheaply right because they're they're they they're avoiding having to run their their own It's very difficult to prove that even we try to like match it with every single API endpoint because some endpoints return some data that that changes not as often basically So it was just a theory that we were speculating. These are proxies. These are not real nodes But we know for a fact, you know that they use previous IP addresses of legitimate nodes but allowing us make the tool to fetch some API endpoints face some RPC endpoints and see if some data matches This way he was looking to find these Proxy nodes. Yeah, we got a list of the nodes from Monero that fail and other aggregators And there were some matching nodes and I think more recently in the matrix monero I think blue again a synthetic bird. They found Mule nodes that are also proxies. They made another tool to look for them So if they were doing this proxying thing back then they are doing it now and hopefully we didn't inspire them This is why people need to run their own node, right? So it's super, you know, it's easy enough to do on your own But the minute the nodo makes it even easier and where you have a machine that's dedicated to it And we're you know making it super easy for you to connect like your cake wallet to your nodo We have LWS integrated into it as well. So that's so that's super cool. So you can use like My Monero or edge wallet, right and which uses LWS right, but you're not giving up your view key now to my Monero or edge you're putting it in your nodo And then your wallet is seamlessly connecting with it But super important for people to realize that they need to be run Running their own or running their own nodes or connecting to a node that they that they essentially trust, right? I will suggest either run your note or join a group of friends and then run a node together Make sure you know who's on the other side of node was administrating it cetera Yeah, I will say it's super awesome to see because like right now I have my cake wallet Like I said connected to my nodo on my same Wi -Fi network, right? So like the sync is just super fast when you do that I'm hoping that really makes a difference at the conference at the marketplace because we'll have the the nodo is running they'll be connected to they'll be running on a Wi -Fi network and then People attending the conference or the vendor and the vendors can connect to that same Wi -Fi Connect to that same Wi -Fi network and connect to you know Link their wallet up with the nodo right so that they're connecting to one of the local nodes there That's on the same Wi -Fi network and it should make syncing very fast and transactions pretty pretty smooth I'm hoping right what do you guys think about that? I'm more interested in testing the security of it if it's on Wi -Fi Well, yeah, you're 10 steps ahead. But what do you think of that thought? I mean, that should make for, you know, a good transactional environment, right? Because last year we had a lot of issues at Monero -Topia with people trying to connect to nodes, the internet wasn't the best, and really just like the wallets were having trouble connecting to the nodes. Yeah, I think the same should happen that Monero -Con and if the networking was good there, Monero -Con would have definitely helped. Mm -hmm. So I'm hoping, I'm hoping that's what we achieve. We have some more Superchats coming in, XMR -tip25, all of XMR Superchats sent to Monero -Topia go towards further development, that is true. That is true. Any tips we receive, I'm basically just putting towards the XMR -chat .com project. Add in tip 50 cents, should wallets have SSL verification of some sort to avoid MITM attacks? This will not help. You can in many middle it by, as you're, you know, running just a reverse proxy, essentially. And it's next, it doesn't matter, but you can issue your own certificate. But it won't help because you have, let's say, Fed run server, and you have the actual node, but that's the same, both have SSL, the Fed server just goes to your node, grabs the answer, strips your SSL, adds their own, and then replies back. It just replies with its own domain name. It can be like, superprivacy, calm. Well, then it's going to have SSL, it just doesn't help. Uh, blah is asking you, where can I buy a node? Uh, so I just put it on the bottom of the screen. It's Monero -node .com. We're producing the first hundred. I think we sold like 80 of them at this point, maybe more. And then I'm bringing, I'm hoping to bring 10 down to Monero -Topia. So there's actually not too many left for the first run, but it's Monero -node .com. Thank you for that question. I see Method Man has actually a lot of good questions, but Method Man, please use XMRchat .com slash MoneroTalk to send, send your questions. I'll, I'll, I'll take one of them here. I'd like to hear your guys take on this. Is Zcash better than Monero? He's the wrong con crew. Zcash is one to 10 Monero -Topia. It's been a little bit of a struggle to get somebody to come physically and rep Zcash, surprisingly, they don't, I don't know why they don't want to come engage with us, but yeah, what is your take on Zcash versus Monero? How would you guys respond to that? It's it, it starts with Z. That's all I can say. We need M. No comment. We don't use it. I don't know. I have nothing to say. I've only ever heard negative things about it. It's like the, that it's not private by default. And once you have, I don't even know about the correct terminology here, like a concealed sender and receiver, something like this, that it does not work or something, that part was not very well made, I don't really remember. So I just thought it's not even bothering. Um, were you guys like, yeah, did you guys ever investigate it like more deeply or like, like why Monero? How'd you, how'd you guys, obviously you like Monero because of its, uh, fungibility. Oh, they're old. Were you there while they're also, okay. Well, Narrow will be a Monero topia. So you see, you think while narrow is also a true, a true crypto perhaps. How about Zana? Do you guys have an, do you have an opinion of Zana? No idea. But okay. We actually have not much to do with cryptocurrency other than Monero. All right. No, I love it. I love it. I'm a, I'm a pure, I'm a Monero purist myself, uh, cause I'm interested in it for the same reasons you guys are. I think it's the best form of fungible digital cash we have. Uh, and it just, it checks all the boxes. We don't like crypto, but we like money. Yes. Well, there is plenty. Um, let me, let me actually, let me play our Monero topia ad. We have 250 live viewers right now, guys, please continue to like and share. I'm seeing a lot of, uh, like new, new people in here, right? Which is really promising, right? We're not getting some of the same comments from the same accounts. We're seeing new people. It looks like they're just kind of discovering Monero. They're asking some, some new bisque, new bisque questions, which are very, very welcomed. I'm just, I'm enthused to see it. I think these live shows really work. Uh, it starts to spread a little bit virally on, on X as people see more live viewers in. So this is great guys. Keep continuing to retweet, like, and share. We'll try to get more people in here. Let me go ahead and we'll, we'll take a quick commercial rate. Are you interested in privacy, freedom, technology, and Monero? Come to the conference that has it all. Monero -Topia 2024. Join us in our world -class of cypher -funk speakers to discuss all things freedom. Engage in the Monero circular economy. Go shopping at the open -air Monero marketplace. Join a workshop. Enter a hackathon. Opt out of dystopia and into Monero -Topia. At Huertor Roma Verde, Mexico City, Mexico, November 14th through 17th. For only one easy payment of $89 for general admission. Or get the VIP ticket for one easy payment of $249. Payable in Monero. And enjoy discounted drinks at the bar and dinner with the speakers. Get your tickets now while supply flask. This deal won't last forever. Get your tickets now at merotopia .com. Enter promo code 1 -800 -MONEROTOPIA to get 10% off your order. All right, that doesn't get old for me. I don't know why. I love that. I love that. I love that. Adam is fine. You'll be experiencing this year, guys. I think you're going to have a great time. Chilling with everybody. Adam tipped 50 cents. Just follow up to his other thing. SSL pinning of your own node? So it's all encrypted and they can't listen in between. Currently, wallets don't verify cert. I'm not sure about wallets not verifying certs, I think. I think what's it called? I think stack wallet probably verify certs. And I think their default node is also behind HTTPS, so maybe one of the better ones. Okay, okay. So let's see. Did we cover all projects? I think we talked about the Monero ATM. We talked about Monero Pay. We talked about Metro Narrow. Is there something I'm missing that we should also... Oh, the casino stuff. I thought that was interesting. That was kind of your gateway into Monero as well, in terms of interest in projects. Maybe more in -depth interest in Monero. Because we want to develop something, because we found it very interesting. Yeah, it was at that time very active. So many people playing. Well, we also played a few rounds. We enjoyed it. We were just thinking, what if we had a bunch of older games? Never happened. Are you guys trying to build something there, potentially, in that realm? Or you're not too busy now. Too busy, okay. Actually, someone showed interest making something gaming related to Monero. So maybe we'll have something in upcoming months, maybe. Well, there's Town Forge, but I think it's a fork of Monero, but it's a game. Yeah, have you guys ever messed around with that? I never went down that way. I literally remember if I've just seen it or if I tried. Playing it. I think we tried playing it. Do you remember? I just have a really big memory of it. But we were more like casino games, because like, okay, at the end of the day, it was like a lot harder and the project was a lot bigger because like, we needed to make games, individual games. So if someone is making casino games and they're willing to license it to us or just give us permission to include, we could launch a casino site easily. Or if they already have a game and you know, they want like some more supports, us reach. We have a question here. What do you guys think about Hovino decks and have you used it? People look into it. As for using it, not really. It's I believe that the interface for it is comparable to Boeing control panel. I don't know. It seems a bit too difficult for regular people to use, in my opinion. We haven't used it because we didn't need to use it yet. But you know, local owner is gone and eventually we'll need to use it. For now, we don't have much opinion of it. I just wish it was like maybe more accessible documentation. This is also pretty poor. Yeah, documentation sucks. And I think the clients are in Java for some reason. We'll have we'll have Wizzer down at Manerotopia, which is super cool. You guys could, you know, maybe you'll have some conversations with him as well. Yeah, I think it's a great, great, great service. It's like the Manero based bisque. I personally don't use it only because I don't really have a need. I receive Manero, right, for our businesses and then I spend Manero out of need. So I don't really, I don't really trade ever. I don't really have a need for moving in and out. For now, we'll see. Manero, it's also a fork of bisque. It's bisque code based with some additions to it. It seems to be gaining some nice adoption and it's definitely needed. We definitely need as many on -ramps, off -ramps as we can get right now that are as decentralized as can be. What do you guys think about Sarai decks? Have you been following that? No. Nope. Luke Parker's developing. It's going to be like decentralized exchange, kind of like a Thor chain, but for Manero, like Manero based. No idea. Maybe we'll hear more about it. Hey, yeah. I'm sure you guys are familiar with Luke Parker though, right? Full chain membership proofs. Yes, we know. We've seen him in maids, Luke clothing. Yeah, what's yeah. Okay. Well, are you guys excited about full chain membership proofs? What is your, what are your thoughts there? We just use Manero to accept. Yes. You don't have any thoughts from a, from a technical standpoint of about the implementation of full chain membership proofs to, you know, to improve ring signatures. So it's basically a full ain on set or maybe you guys haven't really looked into it that much. Any improvement is good improvements. It's in all the data, just merchants and coming to developers who don't have much insight. Yeah, not the cryptographers. Yeah, I'm definitely not either. But I think you guys have a lot more of an intelligent take than myself in that regard. But yeah, I'm very excited about it. It seems to be solving kind of the one attack vector that Monero has in terms of its ring signature. So looking forward to that. Are there things you guys do have your eye on in the Monero development sphere? Things that you're excited about that are up and coming? Things that are being worked on? Things that you think should be worked on? Obviously your projects, but just kind of big picture Monero ecosystem. What are you guys excited about or what do you think should be worked on? I mean, we're excited and for example, the recent Rust developments on Monero ecosystem. Because we're not a fans of the seastag. It's pretty nasty. I don't think the current code base is very tidy. And what was that payment processor in Rust called again? Except XMR. Yeah, XMR. You know more about it, so you can tell your thoughts. That's a lot to Monero pay actually, but it doesn't depend on all RPC. It's fully written in Rust, right? It doesn't depend on C library as well, does it? It doesn't depend as well. But I might be wrong. So we like that part of the development. Separate form essentially, without one error. Any other aspects of Monero that you guys kind of got your eye on from a development standpoint? Sure. I mean, it's a very basic cryptocurrency, right? Yeah, I mean. I mean, from our perspective, like the amount we get to interact with the aspects. You just send it and receive it. We don't attach anything interesting next to it. Right. And if you attach something interesting next to it, it would be not be anonymous. The more basic the bit. Cryptography can be advanced because the features should be basic. Very true. Very true. Let's see. Go ahead. Was there some improvement regarding the 10 block block type of information log? No, I don't think that riddle has really been cracked yet, as far as I know. I mean, people are trying to work around ways through the wallets themselves, right? To basically, you know, make it appear like there is no block, but on a protocol level, there really isn't any solution coming down the pipe yet. Not that there won't be. I'm hoping Luke tackles that next somehow. Or as far as I know, that's not being solved with the implementation of full chain membership groups in any way. But yeah, no. Now, if you have any Monorope people, you know, watching this, we have some plans in the very near future to add the zero confirmation support to Monorope. Send the updates on first confirmation. We want to add zero confirmation, so it's more user friendly when it comes to in -person transactions, especially useful for metronarrals. I guess it appears as well. So people don't have to wait for the first cooperation. And even e -commerce, right? Because, like, people want to get that instant response knowing their payment went through. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that's big. Was there a reason why you weren't zero conf to begin with? Just, like, any technical reason? It needs to be handled differently in the code because it's, like, separate in the world RPC. It's separate from regular transactions. So we need to add a different event loop, right? And handle it that way? Yeah. You get transfers with mempool set to true. We actually had a build of Monorope with this, but we kind of stopped working on it. I don't really remember. Monorope went through, I think, three rewrites. Okay. That's lost in history. That's implementation. But there must be a good reason why we didn't proceed with it. Are there other people contributing to the project, to Monorope? Very little, maybe. Maybe, like, few lines of code changes. Something related to cloud fixing. Not really. Really just you guys. Is that a call action you want to put out there? Are you guys looking for contributors or? Not sure. We are looking. We are looking for more contributors are better. They're looking for good contributors. Yeah. Please, please don't change every single indentation and add a bunch of spaces, you know. Just do call changes. We had people previously submit pull requests to us and just import quality. Wants to change something tiny, maybe wants to actually add three lines of code, but to reformat the whole project or wants to implement something that isn't a problem in the first place, then the task can be accomplished by using a reverse proxy or just something else. They're trying to keep it lightweight and as small as possible. Actually, one thing that would be maybe interesting is having a Monerope build that includes the wallet thing, functionality inside of it using Sego bindings. So it's a single binary that has wallet and Monerope, because right now we depend on wallet RPC daemon from the Monero project. But yeah, that would probably simplify the deployment of it for regular people. And also documentation updates are very well. GitLab, right? Uh -huh, uh -huh. XMR cache tips, another 25 cents. Zcache doesn't have private by default transactions, and most of the transactions happening on chain are transparent as Bitcoin. Monero has better real -world privacy, broader network of actual users, also more usage as P2P cache and merchant extension. Also, when you use Zcache private transactions in the receiving end, you also can't see that you're using private so you can discriminate, right? You can lock your phones because it's private if you're using centralized exchange, right? I remember something like that. So we're like an hour and 15 in. I know it's very late for you guys because we can close it out soon. What do you think? You think we could try to make some kind of Monero ATM thing happen if we find one of these used machines? Do you think it's possible? You can't experiment. It is possible. If it gets shipped to the venue, like even if it's the first day of the conference, or it gets shipped like a few days before the con, even better, like we can go start working on it and it should be ready by the conference hopefully. It could be a hackathon, and we could present it. Yeah, we could be in the hackathon with making the ATM. We could not only MoneroPay, but another project that we have is called Obenkiosk, which is drivers for the hardware of these devices, bill acceptors, coin acceptors, key arcade scanners, thermal printers. We have our own stack for those. Yeah, this is really not Monero related, but if you ran into this issue that there are no libraries for interfacing with our hardware, the bill acceptor and the coin acceptor. So we actually had to make it as well. Wow. We had to write these so -called driver programs. And they're all open source because the ecosystem of these devices is everything. Yeah, you need to contact the vendors and the sellers of these machines, the makers of these bill acceptors, and then they send you a zip file of example code or libraries. So we wrote open source once, and so we called this project OpenKiosk. It's also not just libraries, but it's like a whole architecture we have. We use MQTT, so the modern ATM backend connects to MQTT and all these programs for controlling bill acceptor and other components also talk, go to MQTT, so it's like a publisher subscriber kind of thing. The idea is like to make an open, like operating system OS for kiosks, just hardware, so you could reuse most of the components, whatever you're making. Are you making a call or machine that accepts XMR, you just use the same code base and that's about it. So in the making of this other ATM, we actually came up with a plug and play architecture for kiosks. I love it, guys. I love it. All right. I'm going to close it out here around like an hour and 20, but maybe you can stick around for a minute so we could talk about you guys coming to Monero topia offline for a second. But we could talk maybe about this ATM thing, see how feasible really is. Thank you so much to everybody that joined us. I'm going to go ahead and play the outro, but yeah, guys, hang around. Don't leave. Don't leave. I want to talk to you offline. Thank you so much for doing this. Super excited to see you guys down in Mexico City in like three weeks away. Do you guys know when you're arriving? Not yet. We'll buy tickets soon. Okay. Please do. Please do. There's a lot of cheap hotels in the area, good Airbnbs. So finding a place shouldn't be a problem, but yeah, definitely get your tickets. Anything you guys want to put out there to the Monero community, we got almost 300 live viewers right now. Any info you want to put out there, places to find you. I know you had it up in your slides. Any other thing you want to get out there, now is the time. If you need some software development on penetration testing service, please reach us out, email or matrix or simplex even, but simplex, I don't think we have a bulge on our website. Please do. We accept Monero. And if you need Monero payments, system integrations or other consultation developments regarding Monero projects, you can contact us as well. We also offer commercial support for Monero Pay and or other Monero related projects. Yeah. And also if you want an ATM or something in your house, we're probably the only people you can possibly reach out. That's what I'm trying to, I'm going to get you guys to build one of Monero topi. It's going to happen. We're going to talk more offline. Follow us on x or something. We'll publish probably some public reports during like for pen tests, some security articles, if you're interested in that kind of thing. So it's at Digilenet. They're young Monero hardware hackers for a hire here, guys. So no matter what your project is, if it's somehow Monero related to receiving Monero payments and there's some device involved, I'd say these are your guys right here. Thank you so much. And I'll see you soon in Mexico. But please stick around. I'm going to play the app show right now. Thank you to all who are here. Ciao for now.