Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 754: Disembodied Eating with Michelle Cleary

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Episode 754: Disembodied Eating with Michelle Cleary · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
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My mission is to help trauma therapists be their incredible cells, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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authenticity, genuineness and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's
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the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. So five or three,
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two and one, right, folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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Very excited to have us. My guest today Michelle Cleary. Michelle welcome,
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Hi, How are you all right? So? Michelle Cleary is a licensed
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psychotherapist who has trained in MDR, holds a certificate get in Somatic Experiencing or
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se asia SE training throughout the year as a former adjunct professor for Sunny Stoneybrook
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School of Social Welfare, and maintains full time practice that focuses on treating trauma
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and eating disorders. Why someone's learning and work, you might ask, well,
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because after decades of her own life saving nurturing therapy, she still struggled
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with strong eating disorder behaviors, regular bouts of depression, mood shifts, anxiety,
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and overwhelm. Challenging experiences were interspersed during a time she was also succeeding
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building healthy relationships, learning and creating. She was happier and healthier than ever,
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but was still living with a lot of challenging experiences. She's now dedicated
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to discovering, understanding and teaching others the way our nervous system and brain body
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development contributes to our moods, behaviors, relationships, mental health, and productivity.
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A lot there, but really well said. Welcome to the podcast,
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Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. So before we get
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going here, Michelle share with the listeners where you're from originally and where you
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are currently, both Brooklyn originally and currently. Nice you been out, yeah,
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to get out. Yeah, there was a time I went to school
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in Ireland for a little bit. I lived in the city briefly Manhattan.
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I grew up in Staten Island, So born in Brooklyn, raised in Staten
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Island, back to Brooklyn, back to stet Island, back to Brooklyn between.
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All right, so your your by was very interesting because I feel it
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was very honest about the way things happen and how we experienced things. How
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did this all start for you? And by this, how the heck did
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you get into this field? The field MHM. Super long story short is
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had a very strong, powerful tendency to focus on caring for others to a
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detriment, really a result of a lot of childhood development stuff, hyper focused
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on the external, being the caregiver, and also have a very natural tendency
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towards empathy and being sensitive and compassion. And then through a very twisty long
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road, ended up going to school and getting my MSW and started out teaching
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autistic children and loved it, and then switched over to clinical work because I
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loved it in the beginning, and then it's a tough profession working that in
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that world. I knew that my body was finishing up with it and it
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wasn't the best place for me anymore. And at the time I had overlapped
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and started doing clinical work and started learning how to be a therapist, and
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then that took me in my first journey chapter of my journey, and then
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the second half of that was moving into trauma work. So the first half
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was for traditional talk therapy. You know, I was a young therapist and
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also still very much in that needing to fix and needing to help, and
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you know, all of that, and then the transformation over to my own
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trauma healing, which happened simultaneously throughout my career over the last twenty years or
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really always, I guess, but and and two thousand and fifteen I started
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my EMDR training, which led me to my somatic experiencing training, which changed
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everything, everything inside of me and deeply transformed my practice. You mentioned early
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on that you had proclivity for kind of empathy and where did that come from.
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I think there's a genetic component to people who are sensitive. I think
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that's naturally who I am, and defense mechanisms and personality development are built with
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the pre existing temperament and genetics we have, so it becomes a very personalized
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little stew and you know, mixed with who I am naturally, and then
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mixed with childhood experiences and circumstances, that natural part of me to be really
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hyper, to be really sensitive and compassionate became a way of sensing myself was
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through other people, and which wasn't the healthiest. Well, let me rephrase
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that it was a wonderfully life saving set of defense mechanisms. So the work
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was over time parsing out that which was organically naturally me and my talent versus
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what was the defense mechanisms. You mentioned that throughout your learning experience, throughout
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your career learning, there were some struggles going on, and similarly, your
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healing was going on. Talk to us about that, how what was what
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was going on? Yeah, learning is not a healing is not linear,
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as we know. And I would say that my relationship, just to speak
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specifically of one struggle with eating and my relationship to food was just a really
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powerful experience throughout my childhood and throughout my various levels of healing and so very
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again, long story short is my relationship with my binge eating disorder and my
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bingeing behaviors was really pretty powerful throughout various stages of my life and during my
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career. And what happened was while I was working with my clients earlier on
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and I had been in therapy since I started therapy when I was thirteen,
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Thank goodness, because it pressed that so much, not so much for for
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ed stuff, but more for just family stuff that was going on in relational
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things that were happening, which was again just a bub blessing, and I
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thankfully continued finding therapists throughout the course of my life that were, you know,
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life saving. And that's why when I wrote that bio it was a
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little bit hard, because I don't want to discount the work that I did,
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because it was life saving, literally, and the therapists that I've worked
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with over the course of my years have been just such powerful lighthouses and so
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but when I was doing my own work as a therapist, I kept hitting
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all these walls with my clients and in my own work. So there was
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all this movement and growth and awareness happening, but there were these really persistent
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behaviors that kept happening. And not until I moved into the world of trauma
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renegotiation and trauma work through somatic experiencing did things start to really change. And
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that was, like I said, it started in twenty fifteen, twenty and
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sixteen, and then it's you know, all I do now, not all
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I do. I do a lot of other things. But so talk to
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us about what changed for you when you were introduced to see how did it
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change, What was it about SA that facility. Did that change for you?
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It's such there's it's such a rich experiential answer that it's so hard to
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give it a cognitive narrative. But the best answer I could give is that,
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well, the question you us was what changed and what changed for me?
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I think I got that right. Was it was a non verbal experience
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when I first received when I first experienced se as A as A as a
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client. Really it's like a long story, but my consultant was an S
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person. My EMDR consultant wasn't se person, and he I was having a
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lot. I was very disregulated and having a really hard time doing EMDR because
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MDR has a protocol to it and there's a's to and it's it's really about
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sitting back in your chair and letting the body do the work, which was
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so foreign for me. And I knew I needed more than the skills I
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had. I knew I needed, I knew I needed more. My clients
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needed me to need more. My clients needed me to have more, and
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I needed me to have more. So when I did my EMDR training,
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I was moved and loved it, but I couldn't do it because my nervous
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system was still too disregulated to sit back. I was still trying to save
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and when I was doing my work, trying to do it, my mentor
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said, you're not ready, not directly like that, but you need se
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is what the words actually were? You need s? And I'm like,
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oh my god, what is this? La la la? And I okay,
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okay, sure I'll take that train. Yeah, okay, sure,
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okay and everything. And every week I would go in with him and I
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would and he would just sit quietly, and I would be like, what
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is this? What is this magic? And I would start to talk and
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talk and he just wouldn't let me talk. He wouldn't let me talk,
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and I was like, and what was he doing? He was directing me?
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Was this your therapist? It's he was my consultant, but while I
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was trying to be he was consulting me on MDR. But because I couldn't
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do the MDR because my body was so just regulated, he would pop into
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these moments of what's happening, Notice what's happening in your body? And so
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like like Abby talked about in your previous episode, he was teaching me to
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track my own body. He was bringing me into awareness of my own and
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he was trying to he was supporting me. And again, trying and doing
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are very interesting words when we talk about somatic experiencing. So it wasn't that
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he was doing or trying anything. He was being and inviting me to be
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with me. And so there's a way that's done in trauma renegotiation or in
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sematic experiencing, where you're inviting your client's body into its own awareness, and
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that's what was happening. But it was so different than anything I had ever
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done before, experienced before, and it was a very strange at the time,
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but powerful and impactful and positive experience that I just finally it hit me,
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and I signed up for the training and in the training, you know,
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it's a three year of training and you have to do your own say
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in the middle of that. So then I found a separate sematic experiencing therapist
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and continue with him as my mentor. And I was just having all of
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this like really rich therapy that was based not in talking, not in narrative,
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not in store. Hang on here because I want to I want to
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really highlight this. So you said this was such a unique, profound That's
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what I'm hearing experience for you different than anything you had experienced previously. Talk
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more about that and how it hit you, the differences, or yeah,
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well while this will this consultant was, you know, inviting you to experience
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your body in a way that you had never done before. You said,
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it was very different for you. Talk more about that. What were you
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feeling or experiencing or sensing? And yeah, it glitchy, It was glitchy.
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So my way was to always talk in a disregulated, disembodied way,
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and the talking was taking me away from what was happening in my body,
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you know, and again unconsciously, non consciously, subcortically. But when I
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was directed to slow down, you become all of a sudden, you become
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aware of a level of activation that you didn't ever know was there because you
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didn't know to stop and look for it. Because the world doesn't function that
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way. We function in words and cognitions and symbols and all that. We
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don't you know, we don't privilege the body at this point in society.
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I mean, we're moving more towards it, but it's just still new.
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And so when I was being directed and supported supported, I was being supported
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and slowing down. I became so aware of the draw in me to just
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keep reaching out and reaching out and extent and being like just moving forward.
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And this was this very real, like gentle but noticeable, energetic, like
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no sit back like and then become aware and I was like what is and
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it was me? Wow, it was me? And I was like what
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who was like what's going on? And there was no language for it for
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so long and it took five years of that, like that was the beginning
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and then I, you know, the training, but so that was the
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experience, Like those were the actual moments. I remember one time I walked
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into his office. Had been late, the train was late, and I
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was anxious and I was all over that. I was so anxious and I
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walked in and I just wanted to just explain it and talk about it and
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explain it and happened and make sure he knew that I wasn't bad. And
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he was like whoomp, like just like what are you doing? And I
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was like and it was just such a beautiful experience and it was it was
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like magic. It felt like magic. And at the end of every forty
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five minutes, I was like, that's it. He's like, Okay,
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I guess I gotta go. And then I said, how do I take
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this with me? How do I take this with me? And he said,
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just take ten percent, Just take ten percent, if you can take
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ten percent. And then my other somatic experience and practitioner, same thing,
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talk talk talk talk talk talk talk, and she was like, WHOA like
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and just kept bringing me back to my own awareness, kept bringing me back
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to my own awareness and inviting me to notice, inviting me to notice,
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And and it was hard because I was attached to the story. I wanted
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to tell them the stories I wanted them to know, and I had to
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trust that for both the two people I'm referring to, they already knew.
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They already knew me, like they knew me in a way that I didn't
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know myself yet, because they saw me as a human right, they saw
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me as a person. But before that I had only really recognized myself via
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how I could influence people, or how I could help them or save them
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or perform for them or make them like me or value me in some way.
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And when that shifted very much in this new way of treating which is
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just very, very different than psychoanalytic or CBT or you know traditional psychodynamic talk
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therapy that all has value again life saving, but this, ah, it
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was different. All right, let's just pause here for a second to thank
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our sponsors. All Right, we are back. You have a wonderful way
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of describing your own experience with it's in relation to AS and this idea of
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like feeling needing to tell them the story, get the story out, and
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then just saying talk about so let's let's jump a little you. Well,
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you said you then you started studying SE and what was that like for you?
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Hm, that's such a great question because it's now that I'm an assistant
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and I support the faculty and teaching other students, other professionals. I see
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it happened to so many people, that so many students go through this,
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and I had the same experience. Is that I start. I started,
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and there it was I like, I'm here, let me get it right.
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So much I remember my first day and the h the anxiety of of
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being getting it right, and ah, I don't think I heard thirty percent
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of what my faculty member said. And in the beginning, like especially in
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the beginning, and then over the course of the module. So there's other
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ways see works is that there's three beginner modules, three four day beginner modules,
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and then three four day intermediate modules and then two six day advanced modules
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over the course of three years. So I'd say by intermediate one, I
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started to like I could feel, I could feel the activation coming and then
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I could start to shift and find the shift. I could start to shift
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into a more embodied place, deepening my awareness, noticing all the information was
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starting to kind of I was starting to hear a little bit easier it was,
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and I was taking an information. My executive functioning was starting to come
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back was I don't know if it ever was, but it was starting to
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turn on. The executive functioning with starting to I was like my notes and
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I at the end of Intermediate three, yet this is what I shared at
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the end. I showed my notes from Beginner one and my notes from Intermediate
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three, and my handwriting was different. My taking notes and beginner one was
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like, I have to get all of it, and I have to know
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where it is, and I would just write it down and I was so
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overwhelmed with trying to consume it all, which is a whole thing that could
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be another whole conversation, but by intermediate three, because my body had started
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to really settle, I could I could take in information differently, I could
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sense myself different I could sense myself period where I didn't have that ever ever.
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And so that was that, That was the experience. And then of
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course all the usual you know, wanting to get it right, wanting to
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know what I'm doing, wanting to know it right from the beginning, and
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then that whole like break, that whole slowing down like oh I don't have
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to know all of it right away, and learning how to let things unfold
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and not go get them. It was the biggest, you know, one
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of the biggest shifts. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that
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I'm not still a kook, you know, and a little bit of like
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a yeah, I'm still a very I'm still me, you know, but
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I just have access. I'll have access to me now. So that first
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consultant, that initial consultant, that person sounded pret experienced. So yeah,
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I mean, I think you're really fortunate encountered that person. So this ship
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that you're so eloquently describing and the way you're like saying, you know,
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you were like this and needed to tell them the story, but it was
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just slowing down. Why is that beneficial? How is that beneficial? And
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how was that beneficial for you? There's so many answers to that, But
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I mean there's like a spiritual level answer, there's a cognitive answer, there's
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a you know, social emotional answer. Well, let me let me ask
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you directly. You are someone who was experiencing. You said, binge eating.
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How did that help you with that? Yeah? So yeah, big
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big answer. There is precede somatic experiencing and a lot of the work I
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was doing with my previous client therapist rather who again incredible, I finally how
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it helped me. And I've reframed the word binge eating as disembodied eating.
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So with Find the Shift, which is the community that I launched two months
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ago, it's designed to support people to break free from disembodied eating. And
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I reframed it or rebranded it, if you will, in that way to
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explain that binge isn't a behavior. Binging is a Binging is an experience that
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happens when you are disembodied, when you are when your nervous system has shifted.
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Because with all this education and all this work and all this learning preceding
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that everybody I thought, and many people thought and still think, that binge
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eating is a behavior that has to be controlled, will powered away, it
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supplened away. You have to want it, you have to want it,
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And I can tell you I wanted it, but I couldn't stop doing the
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behavior. And it wasn't until I started to understand the nervous system and the
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sub cortical complex mechanisms that mammals have that cause, or at least deeply influenced
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so many of the explicit behaviors like binge eating. Until that became once I
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became aware of that, and I finally and I remember the day. I
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remember the day I got it. I figured it out. It was in
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the middle of the SC training, the end of the SE training, and
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I was just understanding. I was learning polyvagel theory and deepening my understanding of
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dorsal vagel and ventual vagel and sympathetic activation and all the different types of nervous
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system settings. And it finally dawned on me. I was like, Oh,
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I'm dissociated. I'm dissociated. Holy I don't know what the cursing rules
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are here. So Holy moly, I am dissociated. I'm not here.
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I'm not doing this. There's something that happens. It just happens so frequently
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and so automatically. It has been happening so long. I didn't know.
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I thought it was a behavior, and it's not. I mean, it's
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a behavior, but it's a behavior that's happening as a result on top of
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a nervous system shift that keeps happening and has been happening since I was two,
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and so that's and then when I figured that out, it just was
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like, oh, so over the last three to four years, I've been
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working towards and learning, you know, with everything that's going on, and
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it's not simple, and it's it's it's very it's certainly it's complex. But
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my goal and my hope, my drive for find the shift, more than
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anything, is I don't want people to live with the shame. I know
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what that shame feels like. I know what it feels like to wake up
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the next morning and think a zombie took over and you did these things and
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you ate this food and and you don't know why it happened, and the
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shame, And I want people to know that they're not bad. They're not
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bad, they're not lazy, they're not sabotaging themselves, they're not not wanting
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it enough. But something's likely. I'm not saying everybody, because humans are
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complex beings. There's so many factors involved in this, but I want people
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to know that struggle with this disembodied eating experience and again binge eating, emotional
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eating, stress eating times when you think that the experience of not being able
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to stop eating when you wish you could, the experience of not being able
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to access decision making, the experience of not being able to feel fullness until
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you can't not feel the fullness, that all those that spectrum of experiences very
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likely has more to do with nervous system and shifts. And now the nervous
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system states then the fact that you're lazy, that's not what it is.
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You're an Let me just remind everyone. I'm speaking with Michelle Cleary. The
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website is find the Shift dot com. So the disembodied eating has its origins
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in nervous system just regulation yea which has its origins in trauma. Yes,
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most of the time, if not all the time. I would say a
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very large percentage of the time. The key is understanding the definition of trauma,
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because so many people think trauma is big tea, this thing happened to
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me. But chronic stress is also traumatizing to the body. So many people
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lived in chronic stress environments that don't means stress, like oh, and I
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know this, but oh the lights are going to get shut off, meaning
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stress if you didn't get enough of the emotional attunement that you needed. So
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that's so, Yes, the answer to your question is yes, it is
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my belief and evidence supports that trauma or chronic stress or those situations. Again,
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you have to you have to broaden your understanding what trauma is is a
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huge component to the development of disordered eating. Well, so let's talk specifically
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about who you work with and how you work with these individuals, what kind
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of programs you offer, etc. Sure, Currently, the current version of
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Find the Shift is focused primarily for people who struggle with disembodied eating. If
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you identify as some one who has struggled with that experience where you feel like
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you've lost control, you don't know why it keeps happening. All the things
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I said before, Find the Shift is not appropriate for people who need to
32:12
be inpatient or need to be in residential. You know, it's not comprehensive
32:17
enough for that, but it is designed for folks who struggle with that and
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are able to function in their lives and their medical situation is stable. And
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the way it works is it's a community based program. It's educational based.
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It's not therapeutic. It's educational and the goal is to there's an eleven step
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process that I teach people how to increase their introception, how to define what
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their signal experiences are, help them understand what a disembodied experience feels like for
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them, tools on how to shift from disembodied to embodied. And I created
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a nervous system tracking app that helps people to track their nervous system in a
33:07
very specific way to help them keep to help them do something. It offers
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them some structure, you know, like, oh, if I joined this
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gym, I would go to these you know, it gives them something to
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do, right, It gives them let me rephrase that. That sounds a
33:25
little bit like it gives them something to do. It gives them a structure
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to keep checking and I call it the daily return to keep checking into their
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bodies. So that's the bulk of it. But because this is complex work,
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there's also supportive experiences that help support this process. As a member of
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the community, I do something called the Daily Return. Every day at six
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forty five am, I go live and we do like we practice into reception.
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We have intentions, setting ceremonies we have every Monday night, we get
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together as a community and just work on the steps together. So this program
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is it live as opposed to a Yeah, there's live and on demand.
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It's a mix of both, so there's on demand components to it. But
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it's evergreen. It's a membership. It's I might June first, I'm launching
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a smaller version of it as well, so in the next couple of weeks
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there's going to be continued changes and evolution. But as it stands right now,
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it's a membership. That membership gives you access to the Nervous System tracking
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app. You can't get it on the app store. Cannot get it on
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the app store. And because there's so much education involved and so much support
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needed, because it's not as simple as I'm just going to do this thing,
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you know, So, yeah, what are some of the common misconcern
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options about disembodied eating, that our culture has that its behavioral, that if
35:07
they wanted to, they would stop just stop eating. The idea that you
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can wrangle and tie up a behavior and lock it in the closet for your
35:24
entire life and think it's not going to come out, because it will.
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Yeah, the belief that people think folks are lazy. And I'm not even
35:43
going to finish that. That's a whole other conversation. But I was going
35:45
to say something else because this is we're talking about disembodied eating, but really
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we could talk about name it hoarding, like so many behaviors that humans struggle
35:57
with, substance abuse, addictions to shopping, name it anger issues, Like,
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there's so many behaviors that we as a species are trying to navigate from
36:10
this two dimensional behavioral space and they're all lying on top of the nervous system
36:19
and that's where we have to be focusing. Wow, the program sounds amazing.
36:28
How can people learn about this? Yeah? Finds the shift dot com
36:34
uh and it's men women you know working is growing, so just naming.
36:45
We just launched it March first. It's still small, but the vision is
36:50
that we're going to have I have it set up, but we don't have
36:53
that many members yet, so same circles. So folks that have special specif
37:00
lived experiences, like black, Indigenous and other people of color, there's going
37:04
to be a same circle for them. Men LGBTQ plus ia people who live
37:08
alone have specific challenges around disembodied eating. So you know, as we grow
37:16
and we build, because again we're less than two little over two and a
37:22
half months in, the goal is for the community to really thrive right right,
37:29
And you don't have to be an active member of the community because some
37:31
people are like, I don't need another but to just be in it and
37:37
to see it and to know and even see the posts and people are talking
37:40
about their struggles. There's something really powerful about seeing that. When you were
37:49
going through your own shift with these sc consultants, did you have access to
37:55
any of this kind of support yourself. No? No, I just I
38:04
hate to say it that way, because see was the support. Oh and
38:07
you know what else I really want to mention, which is amazing, is
38:09
embodied recovery for eating disorders. So it's this wonderful Paula Scatalone and Rachel Lewis
38:17
Marlowe have created a protocol for eating disorders that is literally based in this and
38:24
I just started taking their training. Minds blowing like mindlow I've had her on
38:31
the both of them on the podcast. Really yeah, I'll link up to
38:36
them. They're awesome, so so good. So I found them recently when
38:44
I was doing research for Find the Shift. I found the chapter that they
38:46
wrote in the textbooks Trauma Informed Approaches for Eating Disorders I think is the text.
38:52
And then when I found them that chapter, I looked up and looked
38:54
them up and was like, oh, I need that training. So awesome,
39:00
awesome or Michelle, you are incredible. I really really appreciate sharing your
39:09
process in your story and your vulnerability. I mean, it's it's really what
39:15
I want this podcast to be about. And i'd love to have you back.
39:20
I'm excited. I'm excited about your program. I think it's awesome.
39:23
Thank you. We're gonna keep going, all right, We'll be in touch.
39:29
Yes, thank you so much. Guy, You're welcome. Take care. Hi