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Certified Quackery: Navigating Health Misinformation · In Moderation

• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to In Moderation.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: We're here without Liam because Liam is busy doing adult things.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Right now he's actually going to be looking into moving, so he's looking at houses and stuff.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: So he's kind of busy for a week.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Wow, so I hate him.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Can't relate to adult things, that's okay, I've replaced him with our favorite people that happen to be available today.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Welcome in Dr Mike and Susanna.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me, and it's been a while since I have time to do any of this.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Well, since it's been a while, why don't you introduce yourself first?
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: So I'm the only chiropractor the group trusts.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: I think that's a pretty big achievement, pretty good title that I'll put up there.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: But no, like, I'm a chiropractor in Tampa Florida and I love nutrition so much that I decided to pursue it as a master's program.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: So soon I'll be graduating in August and then taking the dietitian license, so that's gonna be fun.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Um, so yeah, I'm the only one of a few chiropractors in the world that likes to just keep going, but there's a lot of us.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: They're just hidden, I promise they're the ones that avoid social media, I think yeah, there's very few that kind of do social media, but even I don't have time like to sit down and post which I should well, that's because you're too busy playing clear, obscure expedition 33 okay I have like 80 something hours on it, so let's calm down too much.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: I mean game of the year, right, listen, I am not.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not a huge fan of single players for a very long time and my cousin was like bugging me to go, like, hey, you're going to like it.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: It has that dark fantasy feel and I just decided to play on a Monday which I don't work on Mondays and I woke up at 10.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I turn off the computer at 10 pm.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: I was 12 hours in one day, so I think it's game of the year.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: I've done that.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: It's a pretty amazing game.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: How about you, susanna?
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm Susanna.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I'm a dietician, um.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I currently work in an outpatient setting in pediatrics and then in a genetics clinic, also outpatient and do a lot of stuff on social media.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I never was able to niche down, so I just post about what I want to post about, which hasn't worked in like a growth way, but it makes me at least want to continue.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: So if it makes you happy, that's what matters.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly on social media, where media where, uh, when you do start to niche down and you force yourself to start doing these specific things, it's just like, oh, do I have to do this again?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: yeah, I don't know, I was cringing at the area.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I was sort of like going into it's, like I don't feel, I don't know it was.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: You start following other people who are doing the same thing and you're like I don't like this atmosphere.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: So now I just do what I want.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know with my content I've had a lot of people.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: They're like oh, I preferred when you did it in this format, or I preferred that format.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, look, if I did the same thing over and over and over again, I would have stopped posting by now, like that's just, that's dull, it's not fun for me.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: You might like it, that's fine, but I also have to think about me and my mental health.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Just being on social media at all is a roller coaster.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, especially if you open the comment section, you get, you get even more depressed okay, what's?
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: what's the worst comment you guys have gotten?
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: oh boy I think the most, I think the most common one is you're not a real doctor.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: I think that's the most common one and I get it.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: You know I'm not trying to portray a medical doctor right but I did a lot of time, you know, and I think I did a lot of time, you know, and I think I did a lot of time, you know, I mean I'm never going to compare my doctorate ever to medical.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Like medical school is crazy.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: And I have a lot, of, a lot of good colleagues and friends who are chiropractors.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: They chiropractic for about five, six years and they're like F this, I'm just going to go to medical school six years.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: And they're like f this, I'm just gonna go to medical school, and they've done the whole.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: They they've completed the first year and it's like, yeah, I completed the three year, three, four years of chiropractic school in one year medical school.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: So it's like very intense.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Um, but I think a lot of people misuse the word doctor, which essentially just means highest level of education per se.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: You know, and I think I get that a lot.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: At first it would bug me because, like I promise I'm trying to help people, I'm not a quack.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: But nowadays it's just like, okay, you know, I see it with, like you know, some medical doctors Like I've seen comments like that on the other Dr Mike, you know, you're not a real doctor, you're pushing pills I'm like okay, cool, so people are just trolling.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: I think that's the most common one I get.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people think that doctor is synonymous with their general practitioner or surgeon.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: But they don't even like real doctors anymore.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: People don't even like doctors.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: It's like, no matter what credential you have, you're doing it wrong.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: So you know what I tell people?
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: I tell people, um, they're specialists in an area.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: You're not going to call your plumber to you to do your electric stuff and you're not going to call a mechanical engineer to do what a chemical engineer is going to do.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: They're both engineers and they'll have an idea of what they do, but they're not gonna be, you know, specialists in that area.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Most of the times I get blocked after that, but it's okay I will say I I have like I used to be like really intense but like dieticians are the nutrition experts and like no one else can talk.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: And then actually I think it was sort of probably rob and liam, where, like you would cover nutrition content better than like the dietitians I would follow and I'd be like you know what and I know Liam's, you know working towards yeah, he's getting a master's and stuff.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: But I was like it's not so much about the actual credential, it's just about respecting like your limitations and A hundred percent, I agree, because I'm almost done with mine.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: I'm still thinking I don't know anything.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's how you felt with yours, but it's like I'm almost done and I'm like, yeah, let me, let me do a little bit of research, cause I really don't know about this one.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: So to say you're learning how to find information and you're learning what you don't know so that you go in with the appropriate amount of fear.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: I think that's a really good way to put it, especially because people are getting very smart, sometimes dumb smart, but people are truly getting smart.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like people like I elbow pain, I think I have cancer.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: I'm like I don't think you should be Googling that, but I do get the occasional patient that will, like you know, challenge me and I'm like, damn, that's a I don't know that question, like, but that also proves that you're human and I think that that, for me, has bring a lot of respect.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Sometimes I even pull like one of my books from the shelf, like, hey, let's see what the book says, real quick, and for them that's like, oh, that's really like reassuring that you want to be specific.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: That's what I've seen personally.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: That's the difference between the good people on social media and the grifters is the capacity to say you don't know, the capacity to go out and learn, the capacity to keep learning, admit you're wrong, all those things.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: The most ridiculous situation where I was like maybe you're right, I need to look into what you're saying with a patient.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: They were drinking a lot of soda, but they were reassuring me.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: They're like we get clear soda, we don't get brown soda.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, is that for caffeine reasons?
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Soda, we don't get brown soda.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, is that for, like, caffeine reasons?
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: And they were like, no, it's because there's less sugar in the clear soda.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: And I kind of like, for a second I believed them.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I didn't know that.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, we'll keep doing that.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: And then I like went, looked it up and I was like, oh, that's completely inaccurate, but it got me for a bit.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: I've had some some weird stuff, yeah, but you know, sometimes I have to remind myself that I need to control sometimes what I want to say and be professional, um, because I I don't know the person, but with, like the occasional patient who is like you know, becomes a friend over time you know, been with me for three years already you know those people I can be like very straightforward, um, and be very honest and and that's cool.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: But sometimes I get like the new pace and then I'm like what are you talking about?
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: How do I approach this situation without something you know, I guess, smart?
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Because sometimes it is, because sometimes people are very, very I came to like this is the only way.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: I really don't care what you think I'm like and why are you here?
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: that's a that's a big problem on social media is they push that certain things are the only way to do something oh and everything is a tool in a toolbox oh 100 I.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: I had this console, the virtual console, with with this patient and she was coming in for some back pain and but in in the console she mentioned some stuff about like fatigue and stuff.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: Like here I'm going to send you a nutritional intake, just finish it up just to see if there's something, and in the area that says what are you for cooking, and she put no seed oils in caps lock it's.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: This is cancerous.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh my god, how do I approach this?
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Right, like because after that everything else in the intake made a lot of sense.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: So it's more.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if this is the same thing with you, susanna, but sometimes it feels like we're doing more psychological counseling than anything else.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Just picking and choosing battles.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like I see stuff about seed oil so much more on social media than I do in real life and it might have to do with the socioeconomic status of the people that I end up seeing, but it's less of an issue in clinic.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I've noticed I don't know and it seems like everyone cares about it on social media, so I'm always surprised that people aren't talking about it.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I haven't seen a lot I've had genuinely questions about like patients, like hey, what do you think about seed oils?
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: Or what do you think about X, y, z?
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: And I've had people who think a certain way and then I just ask them why do you think that?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: And occasionally I heard it from the Internet like who was the person?
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: So this, whatever, and it's like okay, did they explain what happens?
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: And then I kind of put, try to put the ball on the court all their time until they, they themselves go.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: I really don't know.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: You know, and that gives me that opening like okay, so let's really look what's going on, let's look the research, let's.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: And sometimes I have like easy, you know, um rcts I have in bookmarking.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: I just go through them like hey, this is how it works, so they can have an idea.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: I'm not trying to make them into a dissertation, but at least have them be like hey, and especially with rat studies Most of the times it's rat studies I'm like, hey, try to put the dosage from the rat study into yourself.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: You're probably going to pee it out, poop it out, sweat it out real quick.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: My favorite resource I don't know if you guys have been on sarah valentine's website.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: She has just like a vegetable oil.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: She has everything.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Every like question people ask, she has an answer to it and and then she has references.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: So I love that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's the best compilation of seed oil information I've found.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Damn I should put that on my website.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: I should put that on like a FAQ, but having like myths and myths, that would be cool.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting because she has a background of, like she was the paleo mom.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: So I feel like if the former paleo mom tells you you can have seed oils, you can believe it right, like she's clearly been skeptical of things like that.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Um yeah, and it's interesting that, um, there's that internet kerfuffle of somebody coming after her because she had a history of being the paleo mom.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Since you were the paleo mom, you can't get dietary advice.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: No, that just means they she learned I found it very reassuring, like yeah, I mean, she's admitting her mistakes.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, I thought that that was in fact a lot of the dietitians and stuff.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: They will have something that they were like yeah, I used to believe this.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Now I don't.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what we talked about on your.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: The last episode I was on was just like I believed a lot of things.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Fortunately I was not on social media, so there's no record of that.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: There's no record of that.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: Well, now you say that that is pretty true because one of my favorite professors for the Master's program he's like 72, and he's still teaching because he loves it and he's been through like the whole changes throughout nutrition because he's been practicing for 50 years and he goes like I remember when I was giving a talk about like oh, oh, don't eat this type of fat because it's going to kill you.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: And then 10 years later he's like doing.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Another comes like sorry about that, uh, I was wrong, you can have it.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: Um, so he would.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: He would be like you know having those.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Like, oh, don't eat.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Uh, don't eat rfo sweetener, it's going to keep that.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: And then another comes like um, remember that conference I did five years ago, yep, incorrect.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: So that was pretty fun to see, like that transition of like how it has evolved in the past 50 years and being human to understand when you're wrong, because I think that's the biggest part that people can see that oh, I was wrong.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people don't do that, especially all the health gurus.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: And oh my God, I don't know if you guys saw in the Discord that I showed a picture of like random certification pathways that I get in my Facebook like a certified juicer.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, I saw that one.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: What?
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Certified juicer.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Because I'm always looking to like new stuff, like oh, in the meantime I'll do like a random certification, but I have to see if it's worth it and then I get that.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: I'm like what.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I've seen so many like that, that I'm like okay I feel like I kind of want to do them all and just be like hey, yeah, I'm a certified juicer, I'm a certified nut opener, I'm a certified I don't know what else.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: It's a whole, it's like a month program of like being a certified juice.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, okay, you learned how to juice a fruit.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Congratulations, wow.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: I am impressed especially with so many of the health coach stuff.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I think that's everyone's a coach, everyone's a coach, everyone does.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: There's a big market of coaches, teaching coaches, or coaches, coaching coaches inception, right.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I've noticed that, yeah, and like courses for like dietitians or like I'm sure they're in other fields, but I always find people like trying to coach dietitians about how to sell things, sell their own coaching programs, I don't know.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah oh, yeah, same in car in in cairo world and I got it all the time I hear, because the only way you see a very successful chiropractor is I'm bashing my profession, but it's OK.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: It's because they oversell like and lie a lot.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: A lot of scam, yeah, and I see it a lot with you know.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, you have toe pain.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: We're going to do six months of treatment three times a week.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Why, what's going on with my toe?
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: And then they will use like very biased, non-research backed instruments.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: I would say that will like tell you about like inflammation or tell you about.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: It's like a cult in my profession and really, really pisses me off because you would think that something that has been debunked for 50, 60 years it's still practice.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Like you still see new, like kairos, like coming out with this, like philosophy of, like well, you're broken.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: You need to not do that.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: I'm like hello, what do you mean?
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: What's?
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: you need to not do that, and you need to come see me multiple times a week in order to not do that oh yeah, my uh, one of my best friends.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Her mom has a little toy fox terrier that goes to see her chiropractor, I think I think weekly.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Um, and I will.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I will say it's a very old toy fox carrier, so maybe it's benefited it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Have you ever seen a pet?
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, I've seen, and I mean there was a time that I said I want to do more with my scope and do as much as I can with my scope, and that was one of the things I looked into much as I can with my scope and that was one of the things I looked into because it became so like mainstream social media, like adjusting dogs and cats, and I know there's a school in Texas that does like the whole pathway.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: But you have to.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: In some states you have to have either in the office a bet to like, have like supervision, or you need to have a bet in a very close proximity.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know how it really works.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: I can tell you right now it works the same way as humans the adjustment or the pop or the crack or whatever you want to call it.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Essentially what it does, according to the data, is when you hear the crack, you have a rush of endorphins into the area, which is pain hormones, and that calms the pain a little bit and since it calms the pain, increases range of motion.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: But it's temporary that's the whole thing where you have to come three times a week because it's temporary.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Three times a week because it's temporary, and that's what pisses me off, because you can ethically keep a patient for a long time by doing a proper plan exercise, rehab, nutrition and they'll be happy.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: They'll gladly stay with you forever.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: If you have, if you're helping them with their goals and not just selling them a year plan of getting a back crack forever, which, if you put it into perspective, you also don't want to have excess range of motion with no strengthening.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: The whole important thing there is following up the crack with some rehab exactly.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: And there's people I don't even crack, which is weird for me to say.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: But there's people I don't even adjust and they're okay shocker sometimes you just do a little exercise.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Susanna.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: If you don't like, do an adjustment, then what do you do?
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: That's a really great question, um, cause I get it all the time.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Um, it really depends on the person's goals.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: So I always tell them it's not what I want is what you want and it's your goal.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: So, for example, it's not what I want, it's what you want and it's your goal.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: So, for example, if the person is an athlete like I work with CrossFitters a lot, so with them I do adjust them pretty much every visit, just because it just helps them be a little bit looser, for like the workout and everything, and just do some stability training, you know making sure their snatches are correct.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Or you know making sure their form's good.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: So it's more like coaching, but not like the ones we see in Instagram and TikTok.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: So it depends on their goal.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: But sometimes I can get away with not having to adjust and getting to the same goal.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: So if someone has hypertension, for example, example, I'm not adjusting their neck ever because there's a small.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: There's, it's small, but it's higher than the normal person for a stroke.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: And there's a lot of things I can do that can get to the point of getting them better, like I can release endorphins by doing any type of modality that helps with pain.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: That's the misconception you see with chiropractors oh, your neck is out of alignment.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: No, if your neck was out of alignment and it was, that fragile football players will die in the spot whenever they get tackled.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: So, no, not how it works.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: It is a lot of sitting down with them at first and, you know, educating them like hey, like, I'll adjust to you if it's needed, but I will also do cupping or manual therapy or exercise or acupuncture or driving.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: It all depends on what you need on that day.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: And having them present when I build the plan with them.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Um, having them present when I build the plan with them, I don't like to have a pre.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I was coached I hate that word now I was with another provider that I used to work at.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: I was, you know, kind of coaching to like having a pre-made plan with like six months of treatment, which is not ethical.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: And I switched that when I opened my practice and I sit down with them and do the plan, like, okay, what's your goal?
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: What do you want to get out of me?
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: How fast do you want to get to your goal?
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: And then I'm like, okay, we'll do 10 sessions and we'll do you know the first five, we'll do an hour so we can do 30 minutes of rehab, and then the other five we will do, you know, whatever we need.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: So I think that for me, has helped having a different perspective in what chiropractic can do, because I can get them, they're really comfortable and they're not going to be like, oh, I'm going to get cracked and go home.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I think that's I know that's a very extensive answer, but I hope that answers your question.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that's helpful, I guess I've.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I've actually never seen a chiropractor, so I don't know like the the flow of things, but If you're not having any immediate issues or no like rehab goals, then you're okay.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have yet to have a knock on wood, any kind of like.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know issues like that well, if you ever need to just shoot me a message in discord, I will I tell, I tell everyone.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: Please just send me a text and I'll find you someone that you know it's, it's good yeah, yeah, don't go to wellness way.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Sure, anybody listening that doesn't know who Wellness Way are.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: They're basically the scumbags of chiropractic.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I've seen worse.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they're just not social media-ish.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, gotcha.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen some local people that I'm like it's questionable.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: But you know, I I had this conversation with a, a friend of mine who's a chiropractor sports chiropractor.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: He's like, well, technically they're not really hurting anyone, so that's why we can't really do anything about it, because they're not killing anyone.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: We can be scamming people of their money, but technically they were volunteered to go there.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: So there's like, well, that's really true, like it's really nothing we can do when someone has like a.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was just thinking, when someone has like a stroke from that rare situation, do chiropractors get sued or are you like pretty safe?
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: chiropractors get sued or are you, like, pretty safe from?
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Oh that's a great question.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Um, it's not as often as social media portrays it.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Um, I can tell you that whenever someone generally has a stroke because of an adjustment, they there's a lot of variables, like the patient was not possibly clear with the chiropractor and just saying, hey, I have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, I'm in statin drug.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: You know there's a lot of factors that should be done.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: There's a bad factor from the physician.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: If you, if your state, you're a physician, florida, I'm a physician, other states can't call yourself that.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Um, they did a good history or they did a good exam.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Like, there's some basic tests you can do just to check if you know there could be some occlusions, like in the arteries.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: Um, or a basic x-ray 35 bucks check an x-ray doesn't hurt, you know you can see if you have calcifications in the arteries.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: It's a very, very cheap way to save your life and save the patient's life.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Um, most of the times when, if it happens, some of them get sued, but some of them have a such a high coverage in their insurance that they kind of don't get sued.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm sure the state plays a role.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I know like in Wisconsin it's a good state to be a doctor.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: They're like highly protected.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: But then in other states you can.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: I think Illinois it's less fun.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Well, now that you say that in South Carolina I learned from when I was doing my dry needling certification In South Carolina.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: You don't have to be certified in dry needling to do dry needling.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: You can just pick a needle and poke people.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: And if you check and if you check like the like, like the amounts of pneumothorax that have happened in the state, they're all concentrated in South Carolina.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: Because they're like oh yeah, I watched it on poke the lung.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: That is crazy.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Like you don't need anything at all to just grab a needle and start poking people.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: So it's like the equivalent of the juice class, but with dry needling.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like people were just like, yeah, randomly poking people and you know that's crazy because in Florida, in Florida, you have to do two months of training, but it has to be by a certified like academy that has been doing all the research.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: And there's other places that you have to do it in more time, like there's states that you have to do, you know, 60, 70, 60, 80 hours just to be able to practice.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: In Florida you only have to do 40.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: But there's states, like South Carolina, you have zero because it's not regulated.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: That's just a little frightening, it is.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: So never go to someone that advertises for dry needling in South Carolina.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Go to a different state, drive a little bit, drive a little bit unless they had trained, unless they had training, if, if, if they have it in their like bio or about, like they're like certified by, by, even if they're not board certified, but they have the same um training, just didn't have to take an exam, then okay, you're safe to an extent.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Now I feel like I've learned so much about how healthcare like varies from state to state, and particularly you know, there's been a lot of news from Atlanta lately with just reproductive care and then learning about the newborn screen, because that's like.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I work with the newborn screen a lot.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Pretty much all the conditions in the genetics clinic that I work with are found on the newborn screen and like, depending on what state you live in, kids are.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: They run different tests basically.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: So I don't know there are pros and cons for wherever you go, I do feel like there are some states that are just like inherently better, though they are.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: They are because there's there's some states that chiropractors can, only they can't do exercise, which is weird, like they can't do any like rehab.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: And there's states like new mexico that I think they were, they had a shortage of physicians during covid.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: I believe this is what happened and they made a one-year residency like fast track, so that, um, those chiropractors that had like that one-year residency which is qualified by the board to like low level, like medication, like basic antibiotics, basic muscle relaxers, because really, yeah, it's only in new mexico, but you have to take a one-year residency, so it's like an add-on, like I mean that's cool because you are getting a residency through like a hospital.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: So you, it's not like you're like randomly taking an online course, like here, take amoxifil and now you take this.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: You know it's not like taking a random, but it was interesting, you know, because if you were looking to get like some, if you had a cold, you and your pcp was full, you go to your chiropractor.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: He can was able to run the same labs and tests.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: I mean I think that's cool, but but then that's only in New Mexico because I can run labs here, but then I can I have to refer for, like any medication or hormone replacement stuff like that, right.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm learning.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: We don't want to like like there are a lot of good chiropractors out there but it just takes a lot of.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: You have to really the right one.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of variability.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: You have to really find the right one.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of variability.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: I always tell people if and this is going to sound very bad but don't just go with like 20 years of clinical experience.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: Insurance is great, I'm not saying no, but if your 20 years of clinical experience is just adjusting, then I'm sorry.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: But don't.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: If you have someone that you know, know, if you go to their bio and you're like, yeah, like you know they did training with, like, if there's, if they're, if they're selling themselves as a sports chiropractor, what makes them a sports chiropractor?
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Because there is a trademark for being called a sports chiropractor and you have to go through the board and you know, take you know certain amount of hours to be able to use that title.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: Like, do they have that only or do they have like extra training?
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Have they done like more seminars?
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Have they done like more?
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Some of them go and do a master's in sports medicine.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Some of them do additional stuff.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: If it only says the doctorate, I'm not bashing on them, but most of the times they only do adjustments and nothing wrong with that.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: But there's a high chance they're going to try to sell you a six-month package, okay, and maybe some supplements, and maybe some supplements for your with with no labs like, yeah, just take this.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you have, but make you feel better it is a lot with uh, the the chiropractors on social media, is they always package with tons and tons of supplements?
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: well, that'll be very cool when you are a dietitian and you know that's a good combination because you can actually give nutrition advice.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: That's like yeah yeah, I think the cool thing this this is the scary part In Florida I can do nutritional consultations with my license, which is scary Because then legally you could give nutrition advice with no nutrition background, Only what you get in school, which is like three classes, which is now that I'm finishing the master's.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: I still don't know anything.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: I feel I know less now.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: So you know, I think the LDN will be more of a visual for you know, for people whenever they're like, oh, how do you know about nutrition, what do you know?
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: It's like oh, I have a license on that.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: I don't want to smack them on their face, but it does help a little bit with like trust Cause it's not like, oh yeah, you're just a chiro, Like, no, like I actually did a training, and that gives a little bit of more trust and recognition.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: But then again, people sometimes don't really give a shit Like you don't know what you're talking about.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Like okay, I'm sorry, my biggest one of my pet peeves is people will be like like I think one of the only protected things for dietitians is you can give a meal plan and I have never in my life like given a meal plan, like I don't know any dietitians who do give meal plans, so like that's not what we want.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: That's not the protection that right you know.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Like three people are like oh well, I don't give meal plans and it's like, well, okay, yeah, I, I think that's one thing.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I get a lot.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: It's like, oh, we're gonna do a meal plan.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, not really, I want to control your calories.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: If you want to lose weight, um, and I want you to, you know, control your calories and be happy doing it, not be miserable, that's for sure.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I think one thing I always tell them is give me a list of things you hate and things you really love, and that will help me like okay, then, if you're okay taking these things out, let's add these things in um and let's give them a guide.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: You know, you do have to have discipline, like, you need to have some form of of discipline and consistency if you want to see results, um.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: But if you're just like, oh, I eat whole foods, okay, cool, I, I eat healthy, everything's organic, okay, cool, doesn't mean anything, you're still overeating your calories, that works you might be meeting more of your micronutrients, but you will not lose weight oh, yeah, a hundred percent, I think that's.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: I think that's the biggest thing I've seen with people is that they'll come like oh, I eat healthy, I healthy, I eat so better.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: Like I'm exercising, I was like well, exercise is 10% of weight loss.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: The other big percentage comes from what you eat.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: So we need to know how much you're eating.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: And sometimes it's and I don't know if this happened to you, susanna, but it has happened to me that when I tell them to give me like a, like a, you know, because I sometimes tell like okay, take me a picture of the stuff you use on a daily basis, or give me a list of the things you use on a daily basis.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: And sometimes it's just minor stuff, like salad dressings.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Oof, people would go it's like I eat healthy, but they just drum like a cup of a dressing and that alone you have 200 calories in that salad where you could have probably changed for something a little more lighter, still enjoy the salad, still enjoy the flavor and still get your goals.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Or you know, switch your normal soda to a zero, you cut down 150 calories from that and you still quench your satisfaction.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: So sometimes these very tiny things at least that's what I've seen so far?
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: How?
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: What about yourself, from your personal experience?
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: yeah, I think.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Well, you're definitely right.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't understand the portions that they're using for things like peanut butter and like oil and dressing, and I personally, like I don't want people.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I've also worked with a lot of people who are too, you know, fixated on that.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So it's hard, like you don't want to, I don't want people always measuring, but if you can measure a couple times to get a better idea, like, oh, I am having like six tablespoons of peanut butter, not two, that's that's helpful.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: But then I also will see patients where you know exactly what the problem is and it's just like 80 ounces of mountain dew and gas station food and you're like, oh well, sometimes it's pretty strong gamers, but that sounds like a gamer probably hey, not to be sponsored.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: But you know, hold on, get a sponsorship.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, um, but I yeah, I think, and honestly I think the cool thing is the same journey that I'm embarking with my patients.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: I'm embarking on myself, so a lot of the things I'm doing it myself so I can understand their struggles, because I never measured, never did anything like that.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: So now that I'm losing weight as well, my fiance is losing weight as well.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: We're like damn, we were over eating crap before, like healthy things, like when we were like doing like French fries or like sweet potato fries and we never read the package.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: And you see, like oh, oh, 80 grams is 140 calories and you throw 80 grams into like the cup, into the measure.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: It's like four french fries.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Like damn, holy crap.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, I think it was when was, I think it was friday.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: I was making like a like uh, oh, my god, I made some supreme fries with just like um, beef, ground beef and stuff, and I was like measuring everything.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I was like, damn, this is miserable.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: Like I was like easily overeating, like this three times before, and I and that's the problem with a lot of people as well they're like, oh, it's how.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: It's organic, it's healthy, it's whole food.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: I'll just chug it in, let's do it, yeah.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: And then they end up, you know, getting weight, obesity, diabetic, heart issues and the other thing that perplexes me when I think of salad dressing.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: We'll have some like kids who are just underweight, trying to prevent malnutrition and coaching parents on how to add calories, and they'll be like well, they go through like a bottle of ranch dressing every week and you just can't figure out how you could add more calories.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: So it's like for some people it feels like they're eating nothing and they're not losing weight.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: And then other people they're eating so much and you're like that's.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: so that's a really good point.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: That is a really hard point.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: I would say it is a little more difficult how to add them when they're heavily malnourished versus being in a deficit, because deficit is pretty straightforward, like increased protein, increased fiber and satiety is a little higher.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Satiety is a little higher, but then when you have to increase it, it's like how do I do this without causing you know discomfort?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it can get tricky.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: I think that's usually when somebody's under eating.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: There's a reason for that they can't eat enough calories comfortably and with kids.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I don't want to teach them that they need to have like butter and sugar and everything, but also like those are great ways to add calories.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: So it's, it's a balance yeah I would say, um, damn, I I haven't had anyone that I needed to increase, but I did have someone, still have someone that was under eating and she didn't notice and she was not losing weight, but she was eating below her BMR so her body was not even functioning correctly.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: It didn't have enough energy.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: So once I did like I did I this first time, I did like a template for her, so I said, hey, this is like an idea, this is not for you to follow, this is like roughly.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: And when she started like counting like calories throughout the day, she's like, oh my God, I was under eating about 700 calories.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: So she ate 700 calories more to be in a deficit according to her measurements, and now she feels better, starting to lose weight.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: And it's crazy how sometimes people you know heavily under eat and it becomes like that.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Um, I mean, that is a form of eating disorder, not quite bulimia or orthorexia, but it is a like.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: It is a a rising of a heavy eating disorder.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: If you don't pick it up quick yeah, I mean it's hard for your body to function when you're, you know, 1200 calories and like you should theoretically be losing weight, but you probably aren't maintaining a lot of lean body mass.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: You probably feel like crap all the time, so you probably don't want to All these people pushing 1200 calorie diets.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Why are we still doing this?
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Because no one has that yet that I know of.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there's got to be not from 1200 calories.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: I mean you could I mean, I think what pisses me off is there's so much freedom in opinions that hurt people and there's zero accountability, but then me and Susanna do a misstep and we can lose our whole license, we can get fined, we can do jail Like it can get nasty real quick.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: And it's very unfair for the people who, like, have spent a lot of money, have spent a lot of time to just be able to properly help someone and then we might, you know, do a stumble, ended up hurting the person, not because it was intentional, but you know it happened, and now everything goes to crap.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: And then these people are like constantly making a disorder, constantly creating problems, disorder constantly getting crazy.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: It's crazy like the amount of times we've called out bobby for um, for having, like, different connections to the food, not declaring them, all this stuff, contradictions, all, all everything, and he has seen no consequence to that.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: He still has a million, whatever followers, he's, still making millions of dollars he's, and then but but you guys are the problems, you know, because you want to get that one misstep all of a sudden well, and we're clearly being paid right yeah, by big food and big everything I wish I, that is such a I.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I freaking hate that how we're all paid by Big Food.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, all the grifters are literally being paid by Big Food.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: And that's you asked what comments.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: You know what's the worst comment?
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: I feel like those are the most consistent, like oh yeah, oh yeah.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Things where you just.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one time I got it was this guy who was heavily promoting the carnivore diet.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: I was like, well, technically this was invented more like an elimination diet to check for any like triggers and should be long, should be done, supervised by you know health professional for short term to see, see what's your you know gluten sensitivity or whatever's causing your triggers.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: You're doing it for five years.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: You know your body's going to start to go into chaos mode.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: And man, the amount of hate comments I get on, just like posts like that, because, like I, you know himself what paul saladino himself could not do five years like I don't know, no kidding
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: It's like I love that that freaking paul saladino failed the car, mr dr carnivore himself failed carnivore diet and people are still using him as a a figurehead of the carnivore movement.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: And again, no consequences there, which I want to respect, the fact that he admitted that there was a problem, but also it's not the same as what Sarah did.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: It's very different.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: He admitted there's a problem, yet he knew there was a problem and he was selling his book while he knew there was a problem.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: Right right knew there was a problem and he was selling his book while he knew there was a problem right, right, did you saw that video that he posted like the the animal-based pasta and it was just fucking, it was just squashed.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: Like I'm like what about this is animal-based?
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: Um, like I'm trying to understand, I don't.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: I don't think you were like hunting the squash and you kill it.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think that I don't know.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: I think Paul was probably out there with his spear hunting that squash.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: Every time that video comes up from someone reacting, I'm like I just don't get it, Like how?
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: And the thing is, people still believe it.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: That's the sad part bringing the coconut on a plane.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Did you see that one?
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: oh my god, that you think that these things are satire because no, they're generally happening but actually he's read the recommendation to bring a coconut on an airplane and then I don't know who, I don't know who did a reaction to it.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: I don't remember who was said okay, how are you gonna open it?
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: Like you have to have something hard, like what are you bashing it with, though he did he answered that yes, and I was.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: It just like a metal straw or something I don't know, which makes me feel like those shouldn't be allowed through tsa anymore right.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Apparently he can bring a metal straw that's strong enough to just puncture a coconut, but I can't bring a nail file.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I have to look up what he said to that, because he did come up with something.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: I think for me, the videos that really piss me off the most are the ones that are in grocery stores, but not the ones like they're, like you know, half naked, just randomly shot him, but the ones that go directly to like random people and just start like bashing through like their food selection oh yeah there's one way to like be educational and be like hey, you know if you need any help.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: Cool, cool, but like one recorded patient, like that person never consented to that.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: Second, you don't know the social economics status of that person, you know.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Three, you don't know what's going on with their life.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: You don't know if they're.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: You know, god forbid they do something to themselves after that.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: You know, you don't know if they're going through a massive depression.
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: They're very suicidal.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of things that you need to put into perspective and I think me being heavy into like mental health.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: For me, that really pisses me off, because if someone like goes into my grocery list like and sees my, my, um coke zeros and like oh, you're gonna die, I'm gonna punch him in the throat like I'm enjoying my coke zero.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: My god, I'm sorry yeah, and I think, like working with a lot of weird medical conditions, you realize that like there's a time and place for almost everything, there are times where I have, like old people to eat, food I never would have thought I ever would have recommended.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: So I mean, for some of our patients we have like plans in case to keep them out of catabolism, we'll have them mix Gatorade with sugary powder.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: It's like pure sugar, just infusing them with pure sugar.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: And if someone were to bash the Gatorade that they had, it's medically necessary, I don't know.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I was about to say.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: If we go back to the conversation about how these people, they aren't being held accountable because they aren't making them do anything.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: They're not prescribing anything.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: It's just the person is supposedly doing it of their own accord to not eat things that would otherwise be helpful, based on their conditions.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe you know they're struggling to get food in.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Um, maybe they're poor and you're convincing them to buy more expensive things.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: You are significantly lowering their quality of life.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: Which is a form of uh, I don't know, I can't even think straight now.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I um that.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys saw the podcast episode with um the another, dr Mike and Andrea love, and then it was Dr.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Mike's.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: There are too many Dr Mike's for sure.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: yeah, I think I'm the only michael, though, because I know that I think that the other one is mikhail, I think, because he's russian, I think, and the one that's jack, it's also russian.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: So russian, I think.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: The phd one exercise physiology mike is rital.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: Yes, I don't know if he's Michael, maybe I have no idea.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Anyway, anyway, so there was a point where she was saying so she she Ailey Cohen is like a rheumatologist and he was certainly not like she was a little bit more on the pseudoscience side, but I don't think she really realized that she like was pretty ethical, don't think she really realized that she like was pretty ethical and I don't know.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Anyways, she was saying she didn't recommend a bunch of supplements or testing for, like, autoimmune disorders.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: She just recommended that people take the money they would have spent on those supplements and buy organic.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: And all hell broke loose on the podcast episode.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: But I was thinking I was like well, what would I tell people to spend that money on, like that extra money?
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: And then I was like most people don't have extra money that they would use to buy organic versus supplements or like the assumption that there is extra money is probably where we're going wrong with all of that.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: That's yeah.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see, I'm beneficial in that living in canada thing.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I can be like, yeah, go get your lab work done, it's free for us, but that's not something that, uh, you guys have no I mean I guess insurance might cover it.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: That's, you're digging into the whole insurance thing down there yeah, it's.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: It's tricky to get some things covered, like even like vitamin d, which we're all deficient in.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: It's hard to get that covered.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know I usually tell people to okay, because I can see the cash prices sometimes on labs, and I just tell them because sometimes some insurances will tell you like, oh, that's going to be your end of, like your deductible copay and sometimes, if it's going to be astronomically different than just paying it out of pocket, just pay it out of pocket because sometimes a cbc it's four dollars.
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: You know, like sometimes they're, sometimes they're pretty cheap, but they don't tell you that.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: I think that's one thing I always tell people.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: Ask your insurance carrier what is the copay and deductible?
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: If it's less than what the cash pay is, go for it.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: But if it's going to be $100, $300 more than paying the cash, pay cash, you're still going to end up paying that amount of money.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: Why not save yourself $200 and put it in something else?
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know?
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: That is crazy, that you can just go get labs though.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Free Unreal.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: That's a US problem that needs to be solved.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: You guys don't have access to this.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yep that could be like a three-hour podcast episode Well if you want to talk about insurance.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: The reason why I don't take insurance is because I just got a.
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: I saw a picture of a colleague of mine that she took insurance.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: It seems like I'm just not going to take insurance anymore.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: She got paid.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: I don't remember the carrier, I'm not going to mention it either way.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Um, she got paid 64 cents.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: She got a check for 64 cents, for a month of treatment 64 cents.
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: And people ask why some people don't take insurance.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: It's because we don't get paid I know in wisconsin like medicaid doesn't reimburse um medical nutrition therapy.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: There might be like a few circumstances, but like certainly not for any of the things I treat um which the hospital just like eats the cost and the government is the hospital so, indirectly, medicaid is paying.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: It's just a really stupid system.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: But it's know crazy to me that people really want to focus on nutrition but also don't they want to scale back the resources we have to you know, fund it, and I guess we've slowly drifted into politics.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's crazy to me that a lot of the same people that fall for the Bobbies and all that, you will see they will often be right wing voters that want to get rid of public health care, that want to get rid of all these things, or maybe they don't necessarily want to get rid of it, but they're voting.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about rights and stuff is, of course, I always get the oh, you're just a liberal.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not a liberal, I'm not a conservative, I am not a political party.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: I don't identify as a political party.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I identify as a voter, voter.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: It is my job to look at the platforms of everybody involved, to look at what is actually going to be most beneficial, regardless of what their name is, and I think people really need to start doing that.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Stop identifying as a political party, start actually looking into their political stances and all and their plans and stuff, regardless of what their fucking name is and regardless of what they're saying, like, look at the policy that they're voting for, because that's where we're getting into trouble right now is people are saying one thing and then their policy is completely different yeah I agree, yeah, I definitely agree yeah, little, little clap, little clap just like a massive overwhelm hanging over all of that thinking about that topic but it's, it's.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: It is crazy because you know now there's, you know there's bigger voices which kind of captivated more people, which kind of makes our job harder in a lot of aspects.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: Still haven't had anything Like currently that lady with the C-dolls in the intake farm has been the only one since two months ago.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: So hopefully, fingers crossed, that's the only one since two months ago, so hopefully, fingers crossed, that's the last one, um, but I will occasionally will get you know, especially, you know, doing business meetings and networking.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: I will hear some stuff and sometimes it's just not the best time to just, like, you know, be educational.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: Sometimes you're just going to be like cool and just like back away because it's not the right time, although I want to like to always have like a powerpoint presentation for every time I travel and just have a pocket, you know, um just have a little fold-out screen you pull out of your pocket.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like six by five, like, okay, tell me about cedars, um, but but actually that's.
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because this this semester I'm doing my thesis and my original topic was going to be depressions and performance across athletes, because that's what I work with the most.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: And like two weeks in, I'm like I hate my topic, I hate it so much I don't want to do it.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: And then I email my professor.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: I was like, hey, dr Jim, I hate my thesis, I'm going to do it.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: And then I email my professor.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I was like, hey, dr jim, I hate my thesis, I'm gonna change it right now.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: And he's like, okay, I was like this is my and I change it to like misinformation and how that affects people.
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: So I feel more, um, passionate about that one, because it's something that you know, I'm battling in a daily basis and there's not a lot of information about it as well.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: Like there's like now, I think since 2023's not a lot of information about it as well.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: Like there's like now, I think since 2023 there's a lot of research arising with that misinformation and I think that's a pretty cool topic.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the um, a lot of people don't realize.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Again, with the, the bobbies in the world, they defend them, saying they're just trying to help people and it's like, but what is that help actually doing?
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: What is that misinformation actually doing to them, especially in the long term?
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: And some people really believe what they're doing.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: But I feel like people like that have been called out so many times with very logical like I mean, imagine how many times he's been stitched by people with reasonable arguments and to not reflect on that is telling like and I understand.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: People fall for misinformation, like we all do.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: That's understandable, but to stick with it for years and just ignore every single doctor or dietician or anybody that's come stitch them and been like no, actually there's this and this.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: I have a genuine question can the company sue bobby, the ones that are he's talking bad too?
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: Is that a thing, uh?
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Now that I think about how that works I know because like he bashes in so many like companies, like big companies who are putting the name of the company back, you know is there like a loophole, that you know because there's like so many like big, like agencies and corporations that he bashes and then he promotes his stuff which is getting paid, like I feel like I don't know.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, I honestly would hope that we would all be able to continue to like, support or not support products with passion, without lawsuits.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: But you're right, there could be defamation or like I don't know I, I see your point, yeah, I get it, because there's there's a lot of companies that especially I would say it.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: Because there's there's a lot of companies that especially, I would say, in the sports world, there's a lot of companies that will promote like electrolyte stuff and when you see the ingredients, it's like well, that sucks, especially with ingrid, and I'm not going to name any, any of them, but there is one particular one that's pretty big and when you see the ingredient, it's like this is not even like baby, like like dosages, like how is this a thing?
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: right, it still gets sold and still gets sponsored by many, many people I think the thing with bobby getting sued would be, um, he would have to make a false claim about the product, about about one of their ingredients or something that the company can solidly present factual data that he made a false claim, which that's hard to do, since a lot of the science around nutrition is still in the space of we're still researching everything.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: so I don't think it's not like.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: The products he calls out are always like health promoting.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: A lot of them are things that need to be eaten in moderation but you know, it's just like how you plug in, right it's.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: It's like toxic versus not health promoting.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: I'm big on language, I think it's important, but and I see when, when, when rob said about um, like all they're helping, like okay, in some shape or form.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: I could see it in terms of like you can overeat this easy, which can increase calories, blah, blah.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: But I think the statement is wrong because you're completely victimizing something and then substituting for something else which probably has the same amount of dosage and calories as the other one, and you can overeat it as well.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: It's just double, triple the price, yeah and then I think, people actually don't give enough weight, to the degree that eating disorders are like rising and I think a lot of it is just fear about like there's what?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: What are you even supposed to eat?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Everything is terrible for you yeah, well, there's.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of the comments you see on those videos.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Is people getting frustrated?
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: What am I even supposed to eat now?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: I've gotten frustrated, like as a dietitian I've been like I'm so overwhelmed when you know I was like that before, I would say before, when I was in chiro school.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: I was like that.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: I was like obsessed with like oh, it has to be organic, I can't eat that.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: You know, I got, I got very orthorexic and it was not helping me.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't until I started the masters that I was like oh wait, and that's right.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: That's almost around the same time I started seeing like Rob, liam, dr, it's Johnny, like I've, like all these people.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: That's like oh wait, it's just not correct.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: I've been not reading the research, right, and there you go.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: That is, I'd say, the strength of like Rob Liam doctor.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: It's just like calms the anxiety a little bit and helps you put your brain back on and like.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: You're like oh I need to like question all of this and I mean I theoretically should know that.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: But there are also things you talk about that aren't nutrition related.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: They're like other chemicals and stuff where it's helpful to have a perspective that is calming.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: I tell people that we're walking balls of chemical reactions, which is technically true.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: We're just chemical reactions happening all the time.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: That's how we function.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: So when people say, oh, it's a chemical, okay, which chemical?
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, it just has chemicals, like, well, everything has chemicals.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: What are we talking about?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: And usually that is enough for people to be like oh, you know my mom is oh yeah.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: My mom is.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: She's a manager at a gym and she sees a lot of these people like very, like heavy, like like seed oils and all that stuff.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: And it's funny because she would call me like on random days like, hey, mike, I heard this in the gym, is this true or this is bs?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: And it's like the most cutest thing because it's like my mom just asking me like no, mom, that's, that's bullshit, it's that doesn't work, it's not how tell me.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: It's like no, because this happens, because this this, this, this, this and this goes here and she goes okay, cool, and then like three weeks goes by and then some person comes in saying similar things.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: She goes no, that doesn't happen.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: Because he goes this, this, this, this, this, she's become a nutrition expert and she's like sometimes she's like talking with like the coaches and the coaches would say something.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: She goes no, that's not how it happens.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: So it's very nice to see my mom getting to know so much.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: Shout out to Mama.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: Mike.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: She's awesome.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: She's the best, for sure.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: That's good that she retains all of it.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she randomly sent me a video like, is this BS?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, like it is, but there's some good information in that bs, but it's mostly bs.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: But she goes okay, cool, that's pretty, it's pretty nice, um, and my older sister's the same way.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: My older sister's like, hey, like she's very into, like, um, like heavy lifting.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: She's like, is this real, this bullshit, like bullshit.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: And she's like, okay, cool, she goes away.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: So it's, it's cool that you know it has come to that point that, um, you know, none of my at least my, my mom, my two sisters, they don't have that, that eating disorder.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: They can enjoy the food and add what they need, you know, and be healthy and take care of their mental health, like I think that's it makes me happy because, as as the son or the other brother that's, you want to see your family well, right, yes, and not go into that chaos of, like you know, mental disease and everything.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: Because you know we've all had all my family members, like my sisters and my mom and I.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: We've all been through depression heavily.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: So it's nice and fresh to see that there's no eating disorder, you know, with none of my, my two sisters and my mom.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: They're pretty and they all, you know, exercise.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: You know my mom exercises three, four times a week at the gym.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: So you know my mom is pretty healthy, so that's pretty cool makes me happy being able to be in the health space and thinking of it as fueling and, you know, not being so dogmatic oh yeah, sometimes I get a call like hey, I need to prepare this protein shake, but I need some help, like, is there any tips you can make it tastier?
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: it's the I sometimes like she calls me on the face like, hey, how do you make your overnight oats?
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: Like I want to do like you?
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: It's like okay, mom, so it's it's, it's cool.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's a cool moment for sure it's great too, Cause like being taking part in your family has been going through stuff and a lot of.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Actually, I think all of his friends have died to this point.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: I think he's the last person alive, and part of the reason that he is still alive is contributed to me and my sisters taking active roles in his health.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely having advocates around you or just people involved.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Supporting your health is agree, yeah, it's, it's.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: It's very important.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: Um, you know and I think mental health it's a big contributor to all that um, I just got a text, like literally like when we started the podcast, my sister's in medical school right now, um, she's not in clinical rotations, but she's like almost there, and she just told me, hey, I'm gonna take a semester off, like my mental health is like shit and I'm like, I'm very proud of you, like I I know how difficult that is and you know, if you feel like you really need it, it doesn't make you less of a person, it doesn't make you less of a future doctor.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: It actually makes you better, right?
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: I think more people need to.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, that would be so hard to make that decision and we have to change the way that like medical students and residents are treated A hundred percent.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: That, like, medical students and residents are 100, yeah, 100.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: That's why.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: That's why doctors aren't so like, that's why they're dismissive and rough, because they've been traumatized in this horrible I know it's it is.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: It is pretty crazy like before I I moved here from Puerto Rico to do the doctorate.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: I I was burnt out because my when I was in third year of college, my dad passed away from a heart attack so I took a lot of the mantle you know family and helping out.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: So it took a heavy toll on me and a four-year degree took six years because obviously I took it very slow and mentally I was not well.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: So I wanted to take a year off before I went to school and maybe get a job or something, some part-time whatever, just to have something.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: And every single person told me don't do it.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: Every single person told me don't do it, you're going to, don't do it, you're gonna go call, you're gonna start all that stuff.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: And then I remember, um, the sister of one of my close friends.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: She took a year off and she's a psychologist and I called her.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: I'm like you're the only person I know that has taken a year off.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: I need your perspective, like you're, like I need your personal opinion.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: And she goes are you anxious-ish?
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: Are you mentally drained heavily?
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: It's like you're still going through that stuff, even though it's been a couple years.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: Right, it's like, yeah, yeah, take the whole year, just take it.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: Forget about what people say, take the whole year.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: And I took the year in July, got a job at a retail store a couple hours a week, and then, I think the year in July, got a job at a retail store, you know, a couple hours a week, and then, I think it was in March I was planning to go in June and it was in March 2019, 2019 that I woke up and I'm like I'm ready, I'm ready to leave, I'm ready to start, like I'm ready, I'm ready to leave, I'm ready to start, like I'm ready and I and I am.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: For me, the whole degree was a breeze because I was already such in a good head space that if I would have done it a year before, I probably would have hated it, I wouldn't enjoy it at all and I wouldn't have met my fiance.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: That's a big part, very important part Wouldn't have met Tatiana.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: So that's a big, big part as well.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: Small class.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: Lesson learned here Take your mental health time when you need it 100%.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a quick saying and I'll probably leave with that because I have to leave One of my best friends.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: He always says he used it as an excuse to buy cosmetics at games Not the right way to think about it, but he would always say if you look good, you would perform good, which, technically, if you, if you relay it to like more health stuff, you feel good, you perform better.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: So that's for me, that's a big advocate you feel better.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: If you feel good, you can do better.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: And if you do better, you can actually excel what you want to excel, which is why 1200 calorie diets don't work.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: You don't feel good, you can do better, and if you do better, you can actually excel what you want to excel.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Which is why 1,200 calorie diets don't work.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: No, because you don't feel good and don't use it to buy micro-transactions in games.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: It's not how it works either.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: That skin is not going to make you work better.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, so where can everybody find you two?
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, Susanna.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: I am on TikTok and Instagram and threads on TikTok and Instagram and threads is Susanna Richie RD.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: Small, small clap Me.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I'm more active in Instagram in the practice, so not really mine.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: So like move forward Cairo in everything like TikTok, instagram, facebook.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: That's where we're most active.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: I promise I'll start being active in tech talk more.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: I just need, I just need time.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: It does take some time.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: I am heavily active in my practice Instagram.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: We post daily there.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: So at least there you can, for sure you know, send a message and it's going to be me answering.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: So If you're looking for a Mike certified chiropractor the only one the group trusts.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you for coming on.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, thank you for having me, it was awesome.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: So before we leave, what do you hate most about liam?
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: since he's not here, we can talk behind his back that he doesn't like he can get away saying he has like the friendliest disposition, so he'll say something like sassy and he doesn't sound sassy, you're just like oh, that was a nice video.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: I resent that because I cannot do that he just needs to eat more cottage cheese, that's all.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: He just needs to have ice cream cottage cheese, that's that's all high protein.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: Well, secret, secretly, I'm.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we got rid of them.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: So, everybody, don't be your worst.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Put your brain back on and take some time for yourself if you need it.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: Small claps, small claps.