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Ukraine · Oxide and Friends

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Andre, are you there? Can you
• 0:00
  Speaker 2: can you hear us? Hi, Brian. Yes.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hey. How are you?
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: I'm doing good. How are you?
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I'm doing well. So, thanks for joining us, Andre. They so just to give, folks a a little bit of background. So, Andre, you and I and Adam, all know one another through this group of of CTOs in San Francisco, which sounds like it just ridiculously clubby. And it it backed it is called CTO Club, which a name that I do not necessarily love.
• 0:32
  But it's a great group of folks. And, Andre, how long I I feel like I've known you for 4 or 5 years to that. I'm not sure how long it's been.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I think it was about maybe 3 years.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: 3 years ago. Okay.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: So Yeah.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: And so I, you know, I get to this kinda this group gets together once a month. And, I always actually prefer the sessions where we don't have a guest speaker, where it's just folks, talking about things they've learned or challenges that they have. And and I, Andre, you know, you and I have got a very similar approach on a lot of things. And then I, but, you know, other outside of this kind of group, you know, we haven't spent a huge amount of time together. And then I this this past, this kind of past meeting, you were, of course, presenting on what's happening in your native Ukraine.
• 1:25
  And I'm like, oh my god. Of course. I I I just hadn't I felt like an idiot for having kinda not asked the obvious question. But, you are you are Ukrainian, and, this has been, I mean, it's been heartbreaking for everyone, but must just be absolutely gutting for and obviously with many, many connections. So thank you, first of all, for joining us.
• 1:50
  Really, really appreciate it. And I wonder if we could just, like, start from the beginning a little bit and talk about how you grew up and and how you how you discovered computers, how you got into technology, and maybe we can take it from there.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Well, Brian, I just I first of all, I wanna say thank you for inviting me and, sort of giving me an opportunity to talk, in front of this group, and I see there's a lot of people joining. So this is, this is pretty cool, to be able to talk more about Ukraine and what is going on in, in in Ukraine. In terms of, so let me let me share some of some of my background here. I was born in Ukraine. I was there for the first 18 years of my life.
• 2:45
  When I was 18, I packed up and I moved to New York. And in New York, I, actually, I completed my education in, Brooklyn College, which is City University of New York, on computer science. And sort of that started my career in computers. The, or or rather computer software, I should say. I'm talking to a lot of, it's I I need to, I need to reground myself because I'm talking to a lot of people who are not software engineers.
• 3:23
  And and I just in general, I'm saying I'm in computers and and that sort of covers it. So, the way that that I got into into into software engineering is, when I was, I forgot, like, I wasn't like, it's like high school. I went to my mom's office and I saw a computer that was, like, a real I think it was, like, a next t or 8286 at that point.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: And what And so, Andre, if I could just ask for context. So what year are we talking about here? Because, you know, I've always you and I are thinking of the similar vintage, but I actually don't know that for a fact.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Okay. Let me see. That's a good question.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's 90
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: 92, I wanna say.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: 92. Okay. So so this is just and 89 is obviously wall comes down and Warsaw Pact collapses. The you when does Ukraine Ukraine gets its independence In 89? I with my apologies for the ignorance
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: I
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: or 90, I guess.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So, I'm I'm gonna be similarly ignorant when I when I'm when I'm
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: This makes you feel better.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Looking back at my life, like, all like, the year like, it's it's impossible for me to remember all the years, but this is roughly the time frame, yes, when Soviet Union collapsed. And then
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: And Andre, when that happened, did did the kinds of technology that you then saw change significantly, or were you kind of, you know, is it hard to distinguish that from just, like, becoming more aware as, like, a teenager and young adult?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: So at that point, I think I was still too young to sort of recognize that. I was so I I was in school, so it's an equivalent of middle school, I guess, at that point. It's you know, as as kids, I I don't think we are recognizing things for what they are, truly. We just you know, we see our parents. We may see some struggle, but it's just normal life for us, and we're taking it as is.
• 5:38
  We don't know any difference. We don't know anything different. So, at that point, point, I was too young. Now I think with once it once it collapsed, the we started to see a little bit more of a technology enter in sort of, former Soviet Union. 1 of the landmark things that happened that I remember very clearly is we started to get the videotape, players.
• 6:11
  And that was that was a huge deal. All of a sudden, we could have one of those, you know, in an apartment with a TV. Which is only have TVs. Right. And all of a sudden we could, we could have this video tape record, player, and actually watch, you know, Hollywood movies.
• 6:34
  That was amazing. Prior to that, they were, like, super expensive. And what people would do is it's like it's like movie theaters. People would go somewhere where there would be a TV with the sort of, like, the video player, and they would get, like, you know, 15 people in the room, and we would voice, like, a smaller TV, I guess. You know, playing some sort of a movie.
• 7:00
  Ridiculously translated. Just ridiculously. And and that would be a lot of fun. But then at some point, we were able to sort of so more of those video players were getting in. I I guess for me, at that point, that was more, impactful or interesting.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. You're I mean, you're a teenager. So this like yeah. Exactly.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And and, like, again, like, you know, I I I'm not sure the exact years, but, like, Schwarzenegger was, like, commando movie, commandos commando whatever whatever it is. Some of those some of those, like, legendary movies, Rocky, were were hit in the end. And it's just it's they they were incredible. So I I guess back to the back back to the computers.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Back to the high school. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to the office. And I again, I don't remember whether it was IBM XT or whether it was IBM AT 286. Definitely nothing beyond that. It it's 286 at most. I I don't know if, if everyone on this call, or in this space recognize them what x t m a t286 is.
• 8:22
  But,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: you know, if they hang out with us, they've been inflicted. I feel like these these poor millennials that have heard nothing but about these antiquarian PCs. So don't worry.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. You're among friends. Yeah.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: We're among friends.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: Okay. Oh, yeah. This is a safe space.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I saw, I saw one of those, like for the first time. And I'm like the the thing that got my attention it was off. Right? And the thing that got my attention is that the monitor, and it was one of those, you know, the super old tube, you know, knot flap.
• 8:56
  You know, it was just like I I'm not even sure how to describe it, but like huge monitor. The color of the tube was different than the color of the tube on the TV that I have at home. It was a little more grayish. And for whatever reason, that fact stuck in my imagination. So I turned it on.
• 9:20
  I I sort of played with it. I I knew nothing about it. And what I saw was Microsoft DOS, and there was, like, Norton Commander running on it. So it's another I I think, thing that some of us would remember.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I I need, like, a lighter emoji. Is there a lighter emoji here that I can, like yeah. I'm with you. Yeah.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: And Norton Commander, guys, is, for for those of you who don't know, it's like 2 panels on the screen, and it's not a graphic screen. It's sort of rendered using characters. And, on the left and on the right, 2 equal 2 panels that they're the same, and it's like a file system. And you could browse the the file system on the left, and you can browse the, file system on the right. And then you could copy stuff back and forth within left and right panels.
• 10:10
  That's what it was. So the whole thing, I I got I got so interested at what it is. So the next day, I I got into I went to a bookstore, and I bought a book on Norton Commander. And then within the next few days, I just was out having the computer without access to it. It's just it wasn't my mom's office.
• 10:31
  Right? I just read the book end to end, and I learned everything I could about Northern Commander. And then I asked my mom if they can come in and actually play with it. And and this is this was the this was the moment that that my career started, essentially, that I, you know, got in love with computers, with software. And it all started with the fact that the color of that monitor screen and when it was turned off was different from the color of the tube on on the TV.
• 11:08
  That's how the whole
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: That's awesome. The whole thing started. Such a familiar story. I feel I mean, I feel like it it all these stories rhyme with one another, right, in terms of, like, that that I feel that so many of us discovered computing that same way. And and then and where did so where did you grow up?
• 11:22
  Where did you live in in Ukraine?
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: So I I I was born, and for for the entire 18 years, I lived in the city that used to used to be called Dnipropetrovsk. It's Dnipro now, a lot shorter, a lot easier to pronounce. It's actually, in the middle of the country, literally. And Ukraine has this interest in, a property, I guess, about it, is that Ukraine historically speaks 2 languages. 1 of the languages is Russian.
• 11:55
  Another language is Ukrainian. So as you follow along the reverb, Dnipro, and and Dnipro as a city is is sort of in the middle. Historically, starting with Kyiv, going into Dnipro, and down into, to the south to Odessa, that was the line between sort of, eastern and western Ukraine. And eastern Ukraine was Russian speaking, including where I am from. And then Western Ukraine was Ukrainian speaking.
• 12:28
  And actually, the closer you've got to, like, other countries like Poland, the the language, sort of the the more and more Polish like it sort of became. And historically also the Western part of Ukraine, was under, you know, very, very different rule of of different countries. So there's a lot of history with Austrians, Germans, Polish, and and and actually out of Vox. So if you if you guys have an opportunity to go to Lviv, you could, and this is one of the, bigger cities, in the best of the country. It has it it has a lot of that history, which is, like, sort of really intermixed together.
• 13:22
  And that makes a very unique city, and and interesting to see city, in in Ukraine. So anyway, yeah. Sorry. Go go ahead.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I I mean, and I I feel that, like, I am I mean, obviously, I think, like, all of us or, like, many of us, I should say, have been learning a lot about the geography of of Ukraine and just its size and borders and complexity. And so Dnipro, and it's spelled d d n I p r o.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Is that right? Yes.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Okay. Right. Okay. So and and so this is on the border of, I mean, this is, like, right at the confluence of these two cultures, it sounds like.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: That that's right. Yes. And
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: do people grow up speaking both Russian and Ukrainian, or what what was what was it like? I mean, what's the language that you learned in classes, for example? Or what what did you what did you speak at home?
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: That was interesting because I I grew up speaking Russian. And I, I I, like, I I would I I can understand and I would understand Ukrainian. I normally, I would not speak Ukrainian, on a day to day basis. So, you know, if you ask me what I speak at home, I speak Russian. What language I speak at home.
• 14:44
  Now, at some point, when I was I think that was the last year or whatever. A couple of last years that I was in in Ukraine. So that was let me let me calculate it in my mind. 829092. This was the point where the entire educational system in Ukraine was forcefully shifted, to use Ukrainian language.
• 15:12
  Interesting. And, we said that, hey, we're Ukraine and the the sort of the, how do you say it? Like government official language, whatever the official language of the country is Ukrainian. And everyone has to, like, learn and speak Ukrainian. And if you go to school, if you go to university, you will be taught in Ukrainian.
• 15:38
  That was a nightmare for me. Like I was I was I was learning math in like in in the university, the first course in the university that I started in Ukraine. And all of a sudden, one day, the teacher is coming in, and she's starting to speak Ukrainian. And I'm like, holy shit, like, I don't know those math terms.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. God. And, and, you know, we thought distance learning was hard. I think I'm gonna give my kids some perspective on, like, hey, at least this learning is happening in the same language.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: And so Ukrainian was really just sort of your domestic language. Like, how do you navigate around the kitchen, but not to do complex, you know, or technical or mathematical things?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it sounds like Andre speaking Russian were you speaking Russian at home? Or can
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: you I'm speaking Russian. So I've for my whole life Yeah. Right. Okay. In Russian at home.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Got it. Yeah. And but I they shifted the educational system, the this whole learning experience into Ukrainian. But that they did it a little too late for me. So at that point, I, pretty much left.
• 16:41
  Very very soon after they did that, I, when I, came to New York.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Got it. Okay. And so then you and then did you come so you're an 18 year old, and did you have family in New York? Or how did you get from from Nipro to to Brooklyn?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I had a I had a few relatives. I had my grandma, here, and my uncle. So I went to, New York to sort of continue to study. Now my parents just approached me and they said, hey, Andre. Do you wanna do you wanna go to New York?
• 17:18
  And, you know, when you are 18, like, you don't even think about those things. I'm like, New York. Sounds interesting. Sure. That that was Yeah.
• 17:27
  Right. Exactly. Right. That that was the entire logic that I had to, like, answer that question. And it was, when I when I came to New York, it was very interesting.
• 17:40
  Like, I knew English. I, like, I could write and read in English, but I never had opportunity to speak or interact with people in English.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Right. And unfortunately, they don't speak English in New York.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Well, there's a, you know, fair act Brooklyn accent. Yes. So, it took me a while actually to, like, I could express what I wanted. But I, it was hard for me to understand what people were telling me. And, yeah, I would ask them to, like, hey, slow down a little bit.
• 18:19
  And it took me about, like, a year to start to really be fluid and understand the language well.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: And did it at the time, did it feel, like, exciting, or did it feel like you've been displaced? I mean, how did it feel? Did it feel like I'm this is this is an exciting next step? Or, I mean, did you miss home, actually?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I missed home. Yes. As I so I went to, as I said, Brooklyn College. Brooklyn College was a pretty good computer science school back then. Actually, I'm not sure what's going on now.
• 18:52
  I would imagine it's still pretty good at computer science. I I did not understand the culture. The culture was pretty foreign to me. And that was different times. It's like, nowadays, people are, like, flying all over the world, meeting people of different cultures and so forth.
• 19:12
  At at that point, like, my flight to New York was my first flight ever on an airplane. Right. And I was 18. And I I had, like the only culture I knew is, you know, by watching, you know, Hollywood movies. So it it was it was interesting.
• 19:32
  Like, I would go into, like, a pizzeria, right, a pizza place. And I'm like, okay. How do I order pizza? And I would look at what people in front of me in the line, how they would ask for a pizza, and I would copy them. This is how I would order a pizza.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Did you get some interesting pizzas that way? You're just like, alright. Whatever hell is this? I guess I'm eating anchovies now.
• 19:56
  I
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: whatever this is. Yeah. Whatever they have, please. Yeah. I'm I'm just I'm kinda kidding about it, but I'm I've kind of not kidding.
• 20:04
  It was sort of, like, a a a very interesting discovery, for me and, you know, a lot of a lot of learning of of new culture, new language. Like, all of a sudden, I'm in a completely different world. Very, very different.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: And are you thinking at this point, I'm going to be here for a while, and then I'm gonna return to Ukraine? And is that your your thinking? Or what were you
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: That was always an open question whether I would stay here or not stay here. But then that question kind of went away over time. And and I sort of decided to stay and sort of close that out. But for, like, maybe 5 to 7, 8 years maybe, I still have this question in my mind on whether I wanna come back or or whether I wanna stay here.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: And the and, of course, at that time, we I mean, we are folks of our vintage are born lucky in terms of the of the timing because the Internet is exploding and, you I mean, there's so much growth and prosperity effectively happening in tech. I mean, it was it it that must have made it easier to a certain degree to have so much opportunity in front of you.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I I absolutely agree. I'm not sure if I thought that way back then. Again, I was I was a kid. You know, I was a kid in a, you know, a brand new environment. And I was like, I was just going with the flow to a degree without like, right now, I'm I'm thinking about my career in in a very specific way.
• 21:45
  Like, what I wanna achieve? Where do they wanna go next? What's going on in the world? What's gonna be cool, you know, 3 years from now, 5 years from now? Back then, it was like, oh, you know, I like to, you know, I like writing programs.
• 21:59
  Like, I I like software. I like to write it. What is it that I can do? What is it that I can write? And I I pretty much started to work, very, very quickly.
• 22:12
  First, as as I was in school full time, I started to work part time, but then I very quickly shifted. Reverse it. Right? I worked full time and school was part time. I was just writing software, and I was so happy doing it.
• 22:28
  Not much mattered beyond that. Honestly. I just I just need to write more cool software.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's such a great time of life, I think. So and then you are family is still back in Ukraine at this point. You kinda go through this period of, like, maybe I'll come back, maybe I won't. And then I I guess well, one question I definitely have is, like, you know, fast forwarding to to 2014 in terms of of, and and if that's too much of a leap, let me know.
• 23:01
  But, with did you still have family in in Ukraine? And, that must've been, obviously, your your first hint that that Ukraine was gonna was really vulnerable. Maybe that was not a surprise to to you at all.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So, yes. That was so I I still have my my family is still there. So my parents are still there. My wife's parents are still there, and they were there. And 2014 was very tough.
• 23:33
  So what we used to do is, like, every summer, we would take our kids to their grandparents, to, to to DPRO. And they would spend the entire summer with their grandparents. And by the way, this is how they've learned, Russian very well is by spending summers in there. And they, they were forced, like grandparents would not language. And they actually speak very well.
• 24:05
  A lot of people are surprised when they hear that our kids were born here. But they so my son has a he's younger so he has a little bit of an accent. My daughter is pretty much you know no accent in how she speaks. And and they're both very, very fluent. All of that is because we were sending them back to Ukraine to spend summers.
• 24:30
  Now that was the sum the first summer that we did not send them to Ukraine. I Wow. Touched the bullet. Wow. Yeah.
• 24:40
  So, and it was it was scary. It was not, you know, not clear what was what was happening at all. But, thankfully, at that point, it was just the, you know, just part of the country got involved, not the entire country, into into what was happening. Right?
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Right. And did you have because, I mean, we at the time I don't know, Adam, if you did, but but we I mean, we had a Ukrainian team, in 2014, and we're we were engaged with a contractor of how to Ukrainian team. We did not directly.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: And, I mean, they were almost apologetic. Like, oh, you know, we may not be able to work tomorrow because of the war. It's like, you should, like, don't don't worry about work. Take the day off. Take the yeah.
• 25:47
  Exactly. Like, I sorry. I didn't like, what's going on with the war? I mean, I just felt like I was I I was so distant, but then you begin to realize that, like, wow. This is the the the war in the Crimea was very close to home for a lot of these folks.
• 26:02
  Did you have people in tech that you were working with
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: In in grand at the time?
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So 2,000 14, we, I already started my first company. So that was SmartLang. It's a translation localization management platform. And we had a team.
• 26:20
  We had a fairly large team, in in Ukraine in, Gipro. I think right around that time, we also opened the 2nd office in Kiev. But, yeah, we had, like, 2 thirds, of my team was in Ukraine. So Wow. So what we've done at that point, and I you know, this is another thing that I remember that I remember very clearly, is, we've we were doing planning on how to evacuate the team.
• 26:55
  We actually have buses on standby, sort of ready to pick up people and take them to Western Ukraine. And there was, like, there was a lot of uncertainty around that time into into what was what was happening. So Crimea was taken without pretty much a single shot. So what you could say is that Ukraine was not ready to defend its land at all. And Russia had its own military bases in Crimea, for the Black Sea, sort of around the all all the all of their Black Sea forces, navy forces.
• 27:45
  And they pretty much, like, was in, I think, couple of days to the entire Crimea over. And and that was it. And they, and and they stopped there. Right? So there was some, sort of there was some fights around Mario Paul, but they did not go.
• 28:15
  So Mario Paul is very close to this, to to like, when when you cross Crimea into the sort of the mainland, Mariupol is is sort of right right there. And, so this was one of the contested cities. But they Russia did not go that far back then. So, and then, the the so the, Crimea is is is is part of the issue. Right?
• 28:51
  So it was never accepted as part of Russia, by so no one no. I I I don't think any countries or maybe just a few countries sort of accepted as being part of Russia, but it's still considered to be Ukraine, territory. So it's gonna be interesting what's gonna happen with this war. So when we're gonna fast forward into what what is happening now, I I think there is a political will to get all Ukraine territories back.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So speak to that a little bit because so in 2014, you said that, like, there wasn't the willpower or there wasn't the that maybe the readiness or maybe was so shocking. Clearly, there is that willpower now. What in 2014, did people think to themselves they're gonna come that this is going this advance is gonna continue and we need to kinda mentally prepare? Or how how has that change happened?
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Right. So, back then, I I don't think Ukraine had its own. I it it kind of had and it kind of did not have its own identity, And it definitely did not have its its its army. It sort of had the army, but it was not equipped. It it it was it wasn't in a in any way, shape, or form to actually fight.
• 30:29
  And I think a lot of that happened since 2014. So by by the way, Crimea was not the only problem in Ukraine that Russia introduced. Right? So there is, they they did 2 they they sort of separated 2 different republics on the east of the country. So if you guys have a map in front of you, if you looked at the east eastern part, there is, Luhansk and, it's like it's and and Donetsk.
• 31:04
  So all that area sort of was separated. Let's see what Google shows.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: And and this is not that I mean, is effectively on the border of one of the, of one of those regions. Right?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: -Yes. Dnipro is on the border of of those regions. Exactly. -Yeah. Well -Yeah.
• 31:22
  So, essentially like 2 cities, Lugansk and Donetsk, they were sort of they they, they were kind of separated, announced that they're their own republics. All sponsored by Russia, obviously. And they they would put puppet government in there. And ever since so Crimea and those two regions where, like, Crimea is part of Russia and there's there's 2 different regions. They're like Palestine and Israel, essentially.
• 31:59
  This is how this is what Russia did with them. Very militarized, with, you know, a ton of propaganda in there. Most people who were in there who were, you know, people who would who were thinking about stuff. Right? They left.
• 32:18
  They they went into other cities. A lot of them went to Kyiv. But they sort of were sitting there, as as sort of a 2 different republics. So that was 2014. That was
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: the In terms of the and so, I mean, you obviously had you got your, your, you know, you're looking after your team and, you know, you're obviously looking after your own kids and not gonna send them to the summer or to their grandparents because you're concerned about their safety. Mhmm. How are you feeling at that time in terms of I mean, did you have any ambivalence? Or you just like, this is this is wait. Wait.
• 32:58
  What was your feeling at the time about about all of this? It was very destabilizing, clearly.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: It was you you know, it was it was very scary, for for sure. But it was different from what's happening now. Back then, it was sort of more localized. Right. I wasn't sure that it was, you know, it would not expand beyond those regions.
• 33:32
  And there was Crimea was sort of we just we just gave up on it. The government just gave up on it. There was no way we could do anything in there. Now those two regions on the east, we were fighting. But Russia did not was not ready to enter as Russia.
• 33:53
  Right? They pretended that it was not them. They pretended that it's like local farmers are raising up and they don't want to be part of Ukraine. So there was a lot of that. Right?
• 34:04
  Russia was not committing full their full sort of military might into this. They were semi pretending that
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: it's not them. And, you know, you obviously grew up Russian speaking in. Your parents are clearly Russian speaking. The I think it sounds like part of Russia's calculation was, oh, this this Russian speaking minority in Ukraine identifies themselves more as Russians than as Ukrainians. But, you know, you're using the first person plural when you talk about Ukraine.
• 34:36
  So you clearly identified as Ukrainian during this. I mean, it sounds like it was kind of the beginning of a Russian miscalculation with respect to is that is that a correct inference?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, I I I think Ukraine society, Ukraine as a country, Ukraine as its Ukrainian people was really formed after 2014. I think I would credit Putin with with forming Ukraine in Ukraine. With its own identity. Because but keep in mind for whatever 70 something years under Soviet Union, Ukraine was just a part of Soviet Union. Right?
• 35:22
  It was, it was that. You did not have it it kind of had a little bit of its identity but very, very little. Ukrainian language was discouraged. You you sort of had to speak Russian. Russian was the the language to to speak everywhere, the government language and so forth.
• 35:42
  So people lost the identity. And then it was sort of in flux after the Soviet Union broke, broke out. Right? And then and then after 2014, this is when it really jelled this identity for Ukrainians.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: That is really interesting. And I because I I I really wondered about that because I mean I mean, from your personal perspective, you must have been like I mean, obviously, you know, is home. You know, I'm sending my kids there. It's important to me that that my kids speak to to, you know, my parents or that they speak Russian. But, like, I mean, he must have been like, I don't know.
• 36:22
  Like, Ukrainian was also, like, the thing I, like, screwed up my junior year in trigonometry or whatever calculus. Mhmm. You you know? You must have had some kind of ambivalence, but then that ambivalence is kinda sandblasted off by this catalyzing event where it's like, oh, okay. That's who we are.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: That's that's exactly right. It's like it, like, it was annoying for me to switch to Ukrainian. It it was like, I didn't wanna do it. And and then in in school. Right?
• 36:50
  But after 2,000 14, this is how, like, everyone went, like, holy shit. We're Ukrainians.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: And and I'm sure for some people, it was earlier. For some people, it was later. Whatever. But it really galvanized everyone sort of into this into this Ukrainian identity.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So then at the because I think that then the period from kind of 20 2014 to 2022, clearly, this is a top of mind issue for Ukrainians, but kind of out of mind for the rest of the world. I feel like the rest of the world's like, I don't know, Chechnya kinda settled out.
• 37:30
  Everyone's kinda turning a blind eye to it. And but there's this escalation that is clearly happening. And Ukraine this is the reason that Trump is impeached because he's trying to screw up a weapons deal that the Ukrainians desperate. As it turns out, boy, the Ukrainians are really pressured about. Like, no.
• 37:48
  We desperately need these Javelins and and other anti tank guided missiles that were all Trump was trying to connect to political favors, and there's a reason he was impeached. So but this must have been very front of mind for Ukrainians that this is a a real danger that is brewing in Russia.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: So you know what's interesting? It it is I'm gonna say that it was not. Right? So I I think there I I think there were a few people. So Ukraine definitely definitely started to build the army, started to, you know, they they started to finance the army the right way.
• 38:32
  I'm, I I think the level to which Ukrainian army gotten in in those, you know, 8 years is just remarkable. Like, I I wasn't aware that all of this was happening, frankly. We sort of after 2014 and sort of settled down, Everyone got used to new reality. Like, there are still problems on the east of the country. We needed to defend that.
• 39:00
  Is it where it's like, again, it's like Israel and and and Palestine, right? There were always something is is is happening. So we needed to make sure that the, we we had a strong army. This is in this is one of the stronger points right now, because we're well armed, and with with good presence in that particular direction. But, but sort of, you know, sort of that it's sort of kind of was out of sight, out of mind for most Ukrainians.
• 39:33
  Like, I've been to Ukraine countless times. Like, when you were in the probe and you were in Kiev, like, you don't feel that there are problems, on the, you know, eastern part of the country at all. People people go do their business kind of investments, you know, kind of like, there is so much construction, build new buildings going on in Kyiv, in Dnipro. That's where I spend the most time. But other other cities as well.
• 40:03
  Ukraine is a democracy. For sure, the we are electing our own presidents. We do our own revolutions when we don't like those presidents or when they, you know, there's too much corruption. You know, we are Ukraine has a lot of problems with corruption, for sure. It's it's sort of the micro democracy sort of an oligarchy.
• 40:29
  And that's a huge problem. A huge, huge problem, in in the country. But it's our country. Right? And we do what people think needs to be done, including revolutions, including electing the presidents that we wanna elect and and and so forth.
• 40:49
  It's a free country. I to a degree even, sort of was this, COVID years. And I have to be careful understanding that I'm in California. And then mindset of most people here. But I like when I when I went to, you know, when, after after COVID year, when I went back to Ukraine, it's like, you know, it it's complete freedom.
• 41:12
  Like, you can do whatever the hell that you wanna do. Like, no one no one cares. No one does any mandates or whatever. A lot of a lot of businesses grew up. I think the country was was was all its problems.
• 41:30
  And, you know, there are a lot of problems, as I said. But the country was it's a great country. It was one of the most interesting, and I hope still is, one of the most interesting destinations for tourism. It was an expensive, relatively inexpensive with just amazing restaurants, stores, a lot of history. It's just like it's an amazing European destinations.
• 41:57
  I actually recommended everyone to go and explore Ukraine because it's just it's just really, really interesting destination for for tourists. It's like a jam that people don't know about.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: And at this at this point, how frequently are you going to Ukraine? I mean, are you because you you still have you still have a team over there, or did you have a team over there?
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So my entire career, I have teams, in in Ukraine, and I'm working with Ukrainian engineers. So, I, usually I would go, like, 3 to 4 times a year. You know, I would visit my parents. I I would go on business, do business stuff, and and then go visit my parents.
• 42:39
  So pretty often.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: And I and often in Depro or Kiev as well? I mean, with are you Yeah. I would. Okay. A lot of it.
• 42:48
  Yeah.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. I would fly to Kyiv. I would spend time in Kyiv, then I would fly to Dnipro, spend time there, go back to Kyiv. So I yeah.
• 42:55
  Those 2 sort of cities that I would spend the bulk of my time, over there.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. Interesting. And then so okay. Then at what point is it beginning to because I I feel like it was only towards the end of 2021 that this began to pop up at least on my radar screen of, like, wow.
• 43:19
  There is this is some seriously bad news happening on the border. I mean, is had there been, had there been warning signs long in advance of that? Or
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: So so Russia started to accumulate their forces along the entire border, and it's a huge border. There's a lot of border within Ukraine and Russia. Not only they started to accumulate their forces along that border, it's Belarus as well that was overflowing with Russian forces. Now, of course, they've explained they said, no. We're not going to attack.
• 43:53
  This is gonna be, you know, just, whatever the military, what do you call it? Like, military games, whatever that that they're doing, training military training exercises, joint military training exercises with, like, Belarus. And then so they started to accumulate a lot of a lot of armed forces in there. So, what happened then is and and I'm sure sort of the politicians would probably realize this sooner than everyone else. We are like, it's 2022 out there.
• 44:31
  They are not going to attack Ukraine was, you know, a typical World War 2 style war. Right. Ukraine is Europe. And by the way, so let me let me talk about Ukraine in terms of what it means, for a second because I'm not sure people fully realize what Ukraine is. So Ukraine is part of Europe.
• 44:57
  It's a European country. It's the largest European country. Right? So Russia is not considered to be European country. It's in it's in Europe and Asia at the same time.
• 45:08
  Ukraine has 44,000,000 people. Russia has 144,000,000 people. So as I mentioned, Ukraine is a democracy, and it's protecting its right of freedom. Russia is not a democracy. Russia has put in for, like, more than, I think, more than 20 years that he is, at at, you know, power.
• 45:33
  Ukraine is fully aligned to what's called western values. It wants to be a part of European Union. Some some interesting, parts of of this is Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600,000,000 people. It for it it's first in Europe in terms of I think it's called, like, arable land areas. It's like, where you can do agriculture.
• 46:03
  3rd place in the world by the area of black soil. Black soil is the best soil to grow stuff. So it's we're talking about 25 percent of world's volume of black soil as Ukraine. 1st place in the, in the world, expert of sunflower and sunflower oil. 2nd place in the world for barley production, and 4th place in barley exports.
• 46:31
  4th largest exporter of corn in the world. 4th largest producer of potatoes in the world. 5th largest rye producer in the world. 5th place in the world in bee population. A lot of wheat exports.
• 46:52
  There is a lot of ore, uranium, titanium. It's like literally, like, the first in Europe, in reserves of uranium. 2nd place in Europe, in terms of titanium ore. What else is is in here? 2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world.
• 47:14
  2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury, and so on and so on. It's it's a, it's an economic powerhouse, from from, you know, from from those from those standpoints. You know, very powerful industries are built around this. Like, you're around titanium, iron, sort of stuff stuff like that. So that that gives you a little bit of a sense of of sort of why it matters, why markets are very jittery right now.
• 47:48
  Like, guys, the food is getting more expensive for sure. There's no way around it. Russia is not set selling its food in Ukraine. Especially Ukraine is not selling its food right now. So, all of that is gonna get more expensive.
• 48:03
  Now the scary stuff, Ukraine has 15 active nuclear reactors located at 4, nuclear power plants spread across the country. Right? And, plus for decommissioned reactors at Chernobyl. So that's that's the scary part. It's sort of it's a it's a nuclear bomb that is that cannot be moved.
• 48:29
  Right? But it could still be sort of blown up.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: And, Andre, I mean, for all of these reasons, I mean, it I mean, it is a it's a vast country. It's It's it's, I mean, it's, you know, bigger than France. It's got a it's got a huge population, as you said, big the biggest country in Europe. I mean, it must have been absolutely shocking to you as it was, I think, to the world that there was this incredible miscalculation that this could just this country would just kind of roll over. And that's clearly not what has happened.
• 49:04
  I mean, I I assume you were pretty shocked. I mean, at what point did you kind of accept that the invasion was inevitable? Was it was it earlier than the rest of the world?
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: So I did not believe that they would invade until probably a couple of days before the invasion. And then couple of days before the invasion, it it dawned at me. They're gonna do it. And the reason that it dawned at me is that I started to look at, at a lot of analytics about sort of Putin's mindset and where he is. So it's 1.
• 49:32
  And 2, usually, when when you're doing sort of military forces training, you are not stocking it up with like fresh blood and, and like hospitals, right along the border. Right. You're just doing the training exercises and they were doing that. So those two things, couple of days before the invasion, I went, holy shit. They cannot do it.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: And are your parents still in Nipro at this time?
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: They're still in Nipro. They're still in Nipro right now. Yes.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: They're they're in Nipro now?
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, my god.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: So what's interesting is, so I I actually, I left People dot ai. So People dot ai was my, boss company where where it was, ran engineering. But the, CEO of People dot ai, Oleg, he actually looking at what Biden was doing, and he actually has some, connections within the administration. People dot ai started to act couple of months prior to invasion. So most folks, on People dot ai team, we actually got out prior to the war, people who agreed to leave the country.
• 50:48
  While I I wasn't like, I didn't believe that they would do it, but all the guys did and and good for him. So, yeah. I I I did not and a lot of people did not believe it too, like, at all until they 4 AM, they've launched the attacks across the entire border. And they bombed all major airports that they knew about with, with, either with planes or with, precision missiles. 4 AM, people woke up to explosions, in large cities, explosions around the airports, and they and they entered the country.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Wow. And, I mean, that it must have been and this is only how it's been 3 weeks, 4 weeks? It's not been that long. Whenever it's
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: been 19 days.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: 19 days. Oh my gosh.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: And, I mean, you must be it just especially with, I mean, god, Mariupol, what's been happen I mean, all of these cities, but it's just clearly the the the targets are becoming they are civilian targets or they're indiscriminate. So I mean
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's their their strategy and tactics actually changed. So what they were hoping to do, and it's it's ridiculous. It it shows just so it happens at some companies. There are some parallels to learn from.
• 52:21
  In some companies, when you look at the leadership, they're very disconnected with what's going on on the ground. Right? When people report to them what they want to hear. This is what happened with Putin. For a long, long time, people reported to Putin what he wanted to hear.
• 52:42
  And they they sort of continue to report that it's gonna be very similar to Crimea that, you know, Ukrainian people are gonna meet the tanks with, like, flowers and welcome them into the country, that they're gonna, you know, march through the country, get into the Kyiv, topple the government, install their puppet government, and they have, like, 3 days to do it, and that would be it. And it's it's a fact. It's confirmed by the documents. It's confirmed by their strategy. It's confirmed by, you know, who they brought in to a degree.
• 53:17
  So part of the force was the sort of it's like National Guard. It's think of it as a police force. And they were equipped to, like, to prevent rallies in the country, right, to to sort of prevent civilian rallies. And they were not quite ready for the military resistance that they've got from Ukrainian army. Yeah.
• 53:42
  So the 1st 3 days, the strategy was, hey. We're gonna get to Kyiv, topple the government. That would be it. Sort of Crimea style. Guess what?
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: And Yeah. It's so when that happens, and, Andre, you're also you're breaking up just a little bit. I'm not sure if you're on a headset or if there's a way to get the little closer to something. They just, I think I'm you're holding us all transfixed, but you just you are breaking up a little bit. But when that first happened, what is your thinking?
• 54:11
  I mean, obviously, now you're you you mentioned that your 2014 was this real it kind of the this real catalyzing experience for Ukraine. Are you thinking to yourself, this is gonna be over in 3 days? Or are you thinking that this is gonna become what we have what we have seen over the last 18, 19 days?
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: So all the reports and, including, you know, including US intelligence, and probably including me as well. I'm like, holy shit. It's yeah. It's gonna be very quick or relatively quick. Right?
• 54:49
  So I think a lot of people miscalculated this. Yes. And and by the way, so, Russian army is considered to be second most powerful army in the world after the United States. So, that was the expectations. The expectation.
• 55:09
  It, to a degree, it was not unreasonable. But, like, it was not unreasonable for me. Putin should have known better. Right? So, so the resistance that they've got was, like, completely, completely unexpected.
• 55:27
  His strategy did not work. Now, the 1st 3 days they spared the civilians. They did not touch the civilians. Clearly, they had instructions not to, you know, not to, like, touch civilians at all. Right?
• 55:43
  Now after the 1st 3 days, when it became absolutely clear that their strategy did not work, their plan did not work, They there is no way they can get Kyiv. They did not get a single major city, not a single major city. 19 days in, they don't have a single major city in the country. So it's clear that they are losing losing. Right?
• 56:10
  They're not losing. We're still it's still super hard for Ukraine. They're killing a lot of civilians.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: A lot of civilians. I mean, it is so it and I mean, I know that, like, we want to look away from this, but it is so it is so disconcerting where I mean, the and the the images that are coming out are are so disturbing. And this is this isn't war. This is these are civilian targets being deliberately targeted. Exactly.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's no other and I mean, at some point, I mean, clearly I mean, Jesus, hearts and minds. Clearly, at some point, they're like, oh, well, you know what? Fuck it. We're actually not going to we wanna take everyone that is potentially on the edge of this conflict and turn them into an enemy. I mean, I just gotta believe that there are plenty of people inside of Ukraine who are like, I don't know.
• 57:07
  I I you know? And especially, I mean, I don't know. You've obviously got a lot of connections over there. And maybe after 2014, this wasn't true. But it's like anybody who who, had any sort of ambiguity about this, that ambiguity was extinguished once they started actually turning their arms on civilians.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So 3 days in, they've changed they've changed this. Right?
• 57:35
  They said, fuck it. Go after the civilians. So it was, by by the way, how does my sound?
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: It it's better. I think it's better.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Okay. Good. I I'm just trying to stay closer to to my to my phone. Yes. So, they they clearly changed the strategy, and, they're trying.
• 57:57
  Yeah, again, as I said, not a single city was taken. Now I started to learn about, like, military strategy and tactics as part of this. I by no stretch of imagination, like, I am an expert in all this. But the Correct. Essentially, what Yeah.
• 58:15
  What what's happening in the country and it's still it it like, it's gonna be super hard for Ukraine. A lot of people are gonna die. It's still gonna die. But because he couldn't do any sin in 3 days and he still cannot do any sin, you know, in 19 days. He's gonna try very hard one more time.
• 58:34
  So there's this push that is coming within days. Okay. And and, you know, we'll we'll see what's gonna happen. But I, at this point, I I think Putin lost. In Ukraine, even if Zelensky.
• 58:55
  So, by the way, Zelensky, he's an amazing leader. A lot of people did not like him. He is I I think he's one of the best leaders. I I you know, some people compare him to Churchill at this point. Yeah.
• 59:10
  He's leading this resistance, and he is he and his government, everything, communication, you know, how he talks to his own people, HYD talks to the world leaders, and and so forth and all this exceptionally well organized resistance is just incredible.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: It it's been extraordinary. I mean, honestly, to it it just the the level of courage, personal courage, and, you know, the the the refusal to evacuate and the I just it's as an outsider, it's just, it's it's stirring. It's amazing.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, especially as a as a political novice relatively speaking.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: He is. Yeah. Right. Yes. Absolutely.
• 59:56
  He was playing in movies.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I know. I
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: know. He was playing the president, actually.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: I'll I'll take I'll take that. Give me that.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I I guess all all that training was was pretty good, I guess. But he's exceptional. He's truly, truly exceptional.
• 1:00:16
  And I I think we're fortunate to have a to have a president like this. So, anyway oh, by the way, one one thing that I wanted to mention. One of the reasons that I did not believe, that that Russia is going to attack even so, Biden and sort of the administration here was yelling and screaming everywhere that this is coming. The reason that I did not believe this is because they were screaming, and they were doing exactly nothing. 0.
• 1:00:47
  They were just screaming. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, is this a political thing? Like, why why they probably benefit from this? It's like, hey, don't look at the economy.
• 1:00:57
  Look here, Ukraine, Russia war. Right? So it looked like that. And I, and and they they could have done things. They could have started with sanctions before the war.
• 1:01:11
  They could have done things to prevent the war, yet they elected to scream about it and do nothing. So, so back to the war and what's going on. So they've they've changed the strategy. They started to target civilians. They're trying to sort of unite their forces on sort of multiple fronts.
• 1:01:34
  And this is why Mariupol is is is so critical to them, but they also kind of try to make a point. And they're, it's a psychology warfare as well. They're trying to scare people. And one way to scare people is to do the shit that they're doing in Mariupol, that they did in Grozny, in Chechnya, that they did in, what, what was the city called in Syria? Aleppo.
• 1:02:00
  Oh,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: let's say it. Let's go. Yeah. 11. It's
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: the same strategy that Russians are using. They are, they're killing the civilians. They're bombing the shit out of that city. That city pretty much doesn't exist anymore. And they would not allow civilians out, and they would not allow water, food, and medicine in.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, my god. And are and, I mean, obviously, I mean, your parents are still in the thick of it in in Dnipro. I mean, are you must be worried sick about just not just for the country, but clearly, personally.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We're we're all worried. Now Nipro right now, being in the middle of the country, so far there was no fighting in there. There were a couple of explosions. So the first day, they blew up the airport.
• 1:02:51
  And then, a couple of days back, they, they blew up. It's not clear what what they even targeted. It's just some factory, which is not related to anything. But, the city was largely spared so far. There is there is food.
• 1:03:09
  It's it's functioning. Right? There is food. There is like, stores are open. Businesses are somewhat working, and it's ready.
• 1:03:17
  It's ready for war, but it was spared so far. Now the, the fighting is happening, like, 40 miles away from the city, like, 40, 60 miles. It's not far from it. But so far, it was spared. I hope it's gonna stay this way.
• 1:03:38
  We cannot move our parents out. They're too old. They they Right. It's it's hard. It's like people are making this, to get to the border is, like, 4 days of travel.
• 1:03:48
  It's very treacherous. It's not clear whether you can get gasoline along the way. There's literally no space to like you know, there are no hotels, no nothing, right? You can't even take a break. And you know, it's it's very hard on older folks.
• 1:04:05
  So Well, I know. I mean,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: I I feel it's like, I mean, you just think about, you know, assuming that, you know, your parents are the the same, you know, same age as roughly, you know, my parents or or Adam. Our our parents are at an age where it's like basic stuff can be a challenge, let alone fleeing a war zone across a, you know, in in a a vast and war torn country. I mean, it's like, oh my god.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, there are no bridges, pretty much. It's just, it's, it's a it's difficult.
• 1:04:40
  It's difficult to make that trip. It's difficult for young people, and it's close to impossible for older folks.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: Andre, are you are you able to communicate with them?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: So what's interesting about this war is that the all the communication is pretty much spared. And the reason, I think, is that Russians need this communication, to work as much as Ukrainians. They actually it it it it sounds very ridiculous, but they don't have their own, of military communication systems. They they've invested a lot of money, in their satellite communication stuff, and, yeah, that doesn't work. Well, this is typical for Russia.
• 1:05:24
  Right? So all the money got stolen, and shit was presented, but it doesn't really work. So, they they need it, and therefore, it's being spared. Now the way that it functions actually is on the areas that are under Russian control, It's our telecommunication companies, Ukrainian telecommunication companies. So they keep the, they keep the connections going, but they reduce it to, like, 2 g or whatever whatever the speeds are.
• 1:05:53
  And this way, rations, it their encrypted networks, they don't work. It's too low bandwidth.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: That's really interesting.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: But it does allow for people to chat. It does allow to sort of send, you know, images, and and and and and so forth and and some videos. So the the networks are spared. This connectivity pretty much across the entire country with with, you know, with with some exceptions.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: And are you I I gotta ask, how are your kids are your kids how how do they feel about this? They must be, I mean, extremely upset. Are they, you where do they land on all this? Just thinking about my own teenagers.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So my kids are 16 and 18. My son, who's 16, he it doesn't really I I he doesn't understand. Like, he listens to whatever is going on with us. He sort of gets it.
• 1:07:01
  He sort of doesn't. And I, you know, I remember myself when I was 16. Like, I'm like Right. I wouldn't have a care in the world.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, Andre, you were the guy that heralded the end of the Cold War by watching Hollywood videos. So, I mean, you gotta understand that a little bit. I guess I that that that perspective.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. My daughter understands a lot because she's 18. And, what actually hits her hard is, you know, more than anything else is looking at us and and how we react, and and therefore, you know, I'm trying to stay, like, super strong, super positive. It's it's harder for my wife to sort of keep composure at times, and that that's what's that's what's hitting her heart.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. So in terms I mean, you know, obviously, they kinda getting to finally an hour 9 minutes and getting the headline of the space. But I do wanna talk about, like, how we in tech can can help in Ukraine. Sondra, you had a bunch of good ideas for the CTO group on concrete things that people can do to to help.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Brian. So, guys, I I think what's going on with Russia right now is that it's being sanctioned. It it's it's the most sanctioned country in the world at this point.
• 1:08:28
  Companies are leaving in in droves. It's like everyone is stopping doing business with Russia. And at first, there was a lot of effort to get companies to get there sooner and accelerate the momentum. I think it
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: we lost
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: you for a second. It shows. It okay. I lost my Wi Fi.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's actually much sounds much better, though.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: Okay. Hold on. Let me Samsung, what's happening? Okay. Okay.
• 1:09:07
  I'm gonna stay there and make sure 5 gs, so I can stay there. Alright. So, Yeah. So a lot of companies as Russia, or Abdi and the with them. So it's great.
• 1:09:20
  Still gonna help is officials of support It's not and on the level, will help. It's it helped their efforts. It you could you could donate to the army. Now it's not the, tax deductible. But there are places available where you could do directly that, or there are a number of not for profit organizations where it is tax deductible, where it's mostly humanitarian efforts.
• 1:10:00
  I
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: Hey. Andre, I apologize for inter interrupting. I like, the you're you're getting compressed or artifact or something, and I checked earlier. It was just on the speaker call, but I just checked the recording, and and you're really cutting in and out. I don't know if there's anything, you can do on your own.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: Let me see. I'm I'm gonna try to do Wi Fi again. Give me a second.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: Sure. Sorry about that. Sorry, folks.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: It's such an embarrassment. I mean,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: I I it's
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: like it's like no one's fault. Like, I get it. Like, it's not it's super complicated. You got a lot of different software software stack.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: Like, you guys hear me? Okay.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It seems better. Yeah. I know. I Brian, especially, like, when this happens in San Francisco, you're like, this isn't this supposed to company, you know, the city is supposed to be good at tech?
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: When I moved to Silicon Valley from New Jersey, I was surprised how bad the cellular networks were.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: The irony is that you really broke up.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: So I'm describing how bad
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: it is. When I move this freaking valley dot dot dot. Right? Carpool. Carpool.
• 1:11:06
  Carpool.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm I'm sorry, guys. It looks like both it looks like I have some sort of Wi Fi problem, and and, cellular network problem. Is that can you still hear me? Or
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Seems better. Yeah.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Great. So let let's hope it it holds for a few more minutes. But bottom line, please donate.
• 1:11:29
  Please, please, please. Every dollar helps. There's a lot of humanitarian efforts that are going on. It's it's people are struggling. It's it's it's it's really bad in there.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: Andre, where where do you
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: recommend donations going? Like, what what have you what
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: in your research seems to be the
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: of organizations that are working on the ground, but there are organizations that are directly Ukraine specific. So one organization that I recommend in particular, it is not for profit here in California in Silicon Valley. It's called Nova Ukraine, n like Nancy, o, v as in Victor, a novaukraine.org. This is you know that your money is directly applied to Ukraine humanitarian efforts if you donate there. And then the last thing that I wanna say, please support 1st, if you have any Ukrainian engineers working with you, please support them.
• 1:12:31
  If they elect to defend, to defend the the country, please support them. Please continue to pay salaries to them. It's It's important. And on the other hand, please support Ukrainian businesses. In, like, Ukraine in in in Kyiv and and Kharkiv.
• 1:12:58
  People are delivering on their deadlines and their commitments. So the this this would be the summary. Now, again, if you have an opportunity to make any effect on, politicians, please do. Given the atrocities that is happening, I am of a mindset that United States and NATO should enter and stop it. It's inappropriate.
• 1:13:31
  It shouldn't happen in 2022 in Europe, specifically.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: It it it shouldn't. It is it is so again, at the end, watching these apartment buildings being targeted or hospitals and maternity wards. And, you know, I feel like there's and I know I'm glad you asked about, like, specific nonprofit to support because I do I mean, we all know that information is is is a weapon that's being used in in this conflict. And, I mean, Andre, you must have been aghast at some of the and you would call it ham handed propaganda. But, you know, accusing, you know, these photos of, you know, these women from a bombed maternity ward as being actresses.
• 1:14:24
  Shocking. I mean, I I I think you know what? I I I you begin to feel and, I mean, obviously, we've seen this in other conflicts than and where where civilians become targets and then, you know, powers deny it. But I I feel like more viscerally with Ukraine. You do feel what it was like in, you know, 1939 1940.
• 1:14:45
  I mean, it is it it where, you know, people are choosing to willfully turn a blind eye to something that is obviously happening in front of them. And I I'm I'm glad you asked, Adam, about the about the nonprofit because it's with so much disinformation and misinformation out there, it can be hard to know, like, okay. Wait a minute. I don't wanna be I wanna make sure that I I I wanna make a difference and I wanna make sure it's going somewhere where it's gonna make a real impact. And, Andre, have you talked to other, other folks that have had, Ukrainian teams?
• 1:15:24
  Because I I I feel like honestly, I mean, a bit of an elephant in the room is I I feel that Ukraine has always been viewed as a way to save a lot of money for companies. Mhmm. And I kind of feel like, hey. If you're a company that has been, getting great bang for the buck by Ukraine. Ukraine has really benefited your company and your software development organization.
• 1:15:49
  I think it's kinda time for you to to to pay some of that back. And, Andre, you were saying one kind of one concrete thing that folks can do is continue to pay salary to Ukrainian engineers. And and I I certainly hope the companies are going to do that.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Brian, I I'm not sure if it's me or you, but I'm I'm I'm losing you time to time. So, hopefully, I'm coming across clear right now. The, you're you're absolutely right. And and this is one of my huge, huge requests, especially especially the, folks that are defending their land right now.
• 1:16:32
  If you worked with them, please please please continue to support them. This would mean a lot to them. A a
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: lot. Yeah. And so, Andre, how is your team faring? I mean, clearly, some evacuated and clearly some are are saying. I mean, how how are they doing?
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: So People dot ai in particular, the bulk of the team was, evacuated outside of the country prior to the war. So that was executed pretty well, I would say. And, the, the company continues to operate without any interruptions or anything anything like that. We do support our folks that are in Ukraine right now. One of them, one of our engineers actually went to he joined the, it's called the territorial defense.
• 1:17:36
  You know? And he's fighting for his country. And we are the company supporting him. We have a fundraiser, actually, and you need to find it, on on, somewhere on People dot ai site, where we are actually raising money to support him and his union directly. But and and, obviously, you know, we continue to pay his salary and and and so forth.
• 1:18:03
  The rest of the folks who are still in the country, as I said, they, got to safer to safer, parts of the country, and they continue to work. And, this is what Oh my god. This is what people do. You know? They, it yes.
• 1:18:22
  It's war, but the economy needs to continue to be healthy. Right? And the economy needs to continue to work no matter what. So, you know, obviously, we don't for for people who are still in Ukraine, like, there are no, like, demands for them to deliver anything. Like, they could take time off.
• 1:18:45
  They could do whatever. Nobody's forcing them to work. But they do because it's I I think to a degree, it's helpful to them. It's it's a degree of normalcy. But but also, what's important is and it's supporting life as usual and, you know, getting the economy going is is, like, incredibly important.
• 1:19:10
  So I I'll give you another example from a different company. So it's a women led company. Actually, most of them are with, like, I think 36 people there. Most of them are women. It's a recruiting company.
• 1:19:21
  Actually pretty good recruiting company. They were recruiting all around the world prior to the war. They most of them relocated out of where they were. So it's people in Kharkiv, people in Kyiv. At first, they were, again, working from bomb shelters.
• 1:19:39
  Then they sort of took their kids, and and they fled, into the, western, part of the country and into the Europe. And, you know, 70% of their business is gone. And I am helping them right now to sort of reestablish and find more customers. And they are they're working. They're not slacking around.
• 1:19:59
  They're not crying. They just continue the work, and it's extremely important to continue to do that.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And continuing to support Ukrainian businesses. Absolutely.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: And and they're still they're still Ukraine based.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: They're still Ukraine based. Right? They relocated to different cities. They're still Ukraine based. They're still paying taxes in Ukraine.
• 1:20:24
  And the second that it's safe to move back, they will.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, well, I just you were saying about, like, you got your team in Ukraine that's still, like, working, still, you know, still, like, filing, you know, still fixing Kira tickets, and just the need for normalcy. It reminds me of that I remember the onion headline after 9:11. You know, there was that kind of onion went dark after several the headline, nation longs to care about stupid bullshit again.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: Which which I always like and I mean, like, sometimes the stupid bullshit can be very it's normalcy as you say, Andres. You know, I think knowing that folks can help by supporting that normalcy and supporting Ukrainian businesses is really is really helpful. And Andre, in terms of I mean, I I just gotta ask, I mean, what do you feel is the endgame here in Ukraine? I think, like, everyone's kind of as you say, Putin has has effectively already lost, certainly lost the hearts and minds. Where's this going?
• 1:21:36
  Yeah. Nowhere good. So
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: I I think it's on everyone's mind. What's the end game for Putin? So Putin needs to explain this to their, you know, to their base at home, and he needs to show that he's won. Right? Somehow something, but that he has won.
• 1:21:55
  I I it there needs to be a solution there. Now from political standpoint in Ukraine, I don't think Zelensky is gonna be able to do anything short of restoring the sort of regional, borders of Ukraine, including Crimea, including all the, you know, so called republics, because so much has been lost. So many lives have been lost, that I don't think people would forgive anything short of that. So that presents a challenge, and that needs to be negotiated. It it's not clear to me how it's gonna go, but, clearly, there's gonna be more atrocities, before, before that isn't negotiated.
• 1:22:44
  Now can Putin take Ukraine? The answer is it's highly unlikely.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the answer to me seems like I mean, I again, it just feels like, obviously, no, because you you can occupy it for some period of time, but you're not gonna be able to that's not gonna be persistent because you've there's an this is a nation that is very clearly not gonna be suppressed, unwilling to to not be independent.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yes. And, it's like it's guerrilla warfare. You know, supply lines are being attacked. It's there's just there there is no safe place in Ukraine for any Russian.
• 1:23:26
  Yep. So yeah.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: Yep. Well, Andre, thank you very much. I, you know, I'm really appreciate you taking the time to I I it definitely both your background and to to learn the history, but I also, to explain what what we can do. And, I mean, obviously, just hoping that that you and your family and your team, and your country all stay safe during an incredibly dangerous time.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you, Brian. And thank you, Adam. And and thank you, to everyone who was, who was listening. I appreciate it, guys and gals.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And and and we'll obviously Adam, I I saw you already dropped the link to to Nova Ukraine, but that's a, you know, 5 0 1 c 3. So that's a that's a great vector for those folks who are, looking to push with dollars. But again, in tech, we've also got influence, and we can we can influence one another and influence people to treat their Ukrainian employees right. It, influence folks to to, keep Ukrainian businesses alive.
• 1:24:38
  Andre, I thought that was a very good point. There's a lot of concrete things we can go do. Alright. Well, thank you very much, everyone. Andre, thank you especially, and, hope everyone stays safe out there and hoping for a a a peaceful resolution to this thing, and, importantly, a peaceful resolution that includes an independent Ukraine because it it this is a country that needs to stay free and independent.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Joel. Thank you.