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Why Good Employees Leave Land Development Companies with Allison Williams - TLP195 · The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Rarely does it have to do with title or compensation, although that can play into it, particularly if the employee leaving is undermarket.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a really hard market right now, all the way around.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: When talent exits a firm, that is a lagging indicator of a problem that could have been solved and probably started to show itself 12 months earlier.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, what's going on, everybody?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Ryan Glick.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited today to be joined by Allison Williams.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Allison is an executive coach and leadership advisor to builders and developers across the country.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Allison, thanks for joining me.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Ryan.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the invitation to be here.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, going back to, we had an opportunity to have a conversation uh a few weeks back, and I got to hear about your background and everything, and it was super interesting to me.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna have you redo what you explained to me when we were talking because I think it's important to set the stage for some of the things that we're going to dig into here today.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so could you just walk us through uh how you got all the way up to what you're doing today as an executive coach and uh leadership advisor?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I started my career right out of college with a national home builder in sales, working in a model.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I worked my way up into division leadership and sales, sales and marketing leadership.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And throughout my journey, and there were several stops and starts along the way, I've always been connected to real estate in one way, shape, or form.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And for the last 10 years, two years ago, for the last 10 years, I was a partner in an exec in an executive search firm focusing on placing VP and above level candidates in home building and land development.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And through that journey, I saw a lot of really good people leave really good companies for really solvable reasons.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what led me to do the work I'm doing now as an executive coach and leadership advisors, advisors I work with CEOs and their teams on how to prevent those really solvable problems from losing and derailing a team.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I definitely we're gonna dig into a lot of that here today because I think there's a lot of questions and a lot of uh I mean, I think, you know, we have we have people of all types, businesses of all types listening into the show.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got the development companies that are maybe one-man show type uh companies, but then you've also got the larger companies that have established teams and everything.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they both can benefit from understanding this because that smaller company is going to add team members at some point in time, most likely.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh definitely interested in digging to that.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: But before we get into it, I want to first dig into a little bit of your background because I think the first thing you mentioned there that you were involved with was working in a model home.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like when you're working in a model home, it's not something I've ever done or anything like that, but I would imagine being in there and interacting with consumers, you know, prospective buyers, gives you a certain uh perspective on the industry and what people are looking for.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what did that experience show you, or what did you learn from that experience?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was a really formative experience, uh I also humbling in many ways.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I sold out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if if anybody's familiar with Pittsburgh, the topography is very unique.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have either high side or low side lots.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I was selling a new concept to the market, which was patio homes, so quad units all on slab.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the target market for that product, they had identified as an empty nester, someone who a moved down buyer.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And me being all of 26 years old, I didn't, I had never bought a home, had never owned a home, I lived in a home, I grew up in a home, but I had never been responsible for that.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that was my first experience with imposter syndrome.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: How, why are people going to buy from me when I've never done this?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I realized is that buyer could not wrap their heads around not having a basement.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania has a basement.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're downsiding, it's usually a basement full of stuff and they couldn't get over how to get rid of their stuff.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I was assigned to this community, fresh out of my training, I was said, I was told, here's your community.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I had people come up to me and say, Ooh, good luck.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's only been four sales there the entire year before.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so the developer came in and met with me.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: He was anxious.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: We were behind on our takedown.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, I have all this pressure.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the best lesson I learned from that experience is how to reframe circumstances.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I ended up having to do was reframe the buyer.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, this buyer is going to take too long.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I am not going to hit my goals if I focus on this buyer.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Who's my secondary buyer?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And my secondary buyer at the time ended up being renters and first-time home buyers.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what ended up happening is I re-I re-established the marketing campaign.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I went out and talked to realtors.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: I revised our messaging.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we ended up my first quarter there, we sold 13 homes.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Developer took me out to a really nice dinner after that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: But what ended up happening is in that reframe, activity breeds activity.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, there was all this energy moving into the community with younger people coming in, first-time home buyers.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, the downsizers wanted to be there.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: They were energized by it because it wasn't, you know, just a bunch of retirees living in this patio home community was really a breath of fresh air to them.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So once I kind of popped the cork on that, it really taught me that just because you're handed a situation that's been done a certain way for so long doesn't mean it has to stay that way.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the work that I do now with a lot of my clients is how else could we look at this?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: What other opportunities are behind the challenge?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do we reframe the problem into a solution?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: That was a really a formative experience.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It it was probably close to 30 years ago, and it's still very fresh in my head.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's awesome.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a cool experience.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you also even got into something else I was gonna ask you about was, you know, I like to get a feel for you know what you do with your company before we get into really the the meat of the conversation here today.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I know you've talked about it a little bit in the beginning here, but could you talk about what are some of the things that you work with companies on as a part of your company?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I have I have several types of clients that I work with.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I work with business owners and founders on, you know, what we we people who go out and start their own business are a little bit crazy.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just go, and I'm one of them.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we're all a little bit crazy, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: In that we think we can build something from nothing.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it really takes a different mindset to be able to do that.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And typically what leads a founder to want to do that is they they see an opportunity to leverage something they're really, really good at.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they go and they do the thing and they are so successful that then they need help in order to keep doing the thing they want to do, they have to grow.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to grow, they have to have people.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, it steps them out of their comfort zone a little bit when you have to start hiring people.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you hire the right person?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: The biggest challenge I see founders make is they hire the right now person instead of the right person.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I work with founders on how to slow their role a little bit on some of those decisions and really figure out what it is you need to be successful, what it is you want to achieve and accomplish, and then how do you hire the right person to help you do that?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be the first part of my work.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: The second part of my work is I work with a lot of, I work with CEOs and their executive teams.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: It is lonely at the top, and that is a cliche, and it's a cliche for the re for a reason.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: CEOs report to a board, the rest of the organization reports up to them.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: There is no one in that ecosystem for them to vent to, have a thought partnership with, a true thought partnership that uh is based on confidentiality and trust.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: CEOs are people just like the rest of us.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I work with CEOs to challenge their thinking, reframe their thinking, look for other possibilities when they're when they're solving problems, and then shine a mirror on things that maybe they not may not be seeing themselves.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has blind spots, and the reason they're called blind spots is because we can't see them.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So a truly courageous CEO is going to find somebody who's willing to go digging and find their blind spots and hold up a mirror to them because those blind spots are eventually going to hold them and their organizations back from success.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then I work with their executive leadership team.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my clients consider me infrastructure to their people function in that they provide a resource to each executive to be able to grow and develop their own leadership skills to hold up the mirror to the blind spots.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there's a mandate within an organization where a leader needs to make progress on a certain skill, and the CEO will bring me in to work with that leader on developing that skill.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I work with the third line of work I do is I work with teams on their decision making.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So how does their own conflict style, how do their own defaults and how they handle conflict, how does that impact organizational decision making, whether it's decision velocity, whether it's things are getting bottlenecked, whatever that looks like internally, how do teams really make decisions?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And are they being intentional about their process?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Something that came to mind as you were talking through that and you know, talking about some of these larger organizations that you work with, you know, the role of the CEO.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: When I think about some of the companies that are a little bit smaller, you know, the smaller size developers and builders, they may not have a quote unquote CEO.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of them may have a title of owner or partner or managing partner or things of that nature.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's a perception switch that, you know, the that, you know, owner of the company should have in considering themselves that CEO?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think those terms are kind of in interchangeable for people when they're thinking about running their company?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have worked with owners who do call themselves the CEO, and they call themselves the CEO because they are truly in that CEO function.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say truly in that CEO function, the role of a CEO is their power is in their decision making.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: They are tasked with forward thinking, trying to see around the corner the thing that no one else can see, and being able to either prepare for it or optimize it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Owners tend to have some of those similar traits, but some of them hesitate to call themselves a CEO because it's too corporate.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they view themselves as uh, you know, they are an entrepreneur.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes entrepreneurs don't want to wear that CEO hat.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: The question really becomes not how does the business owner or founder see themselves, but how does everyone around them see the business owner or the founder?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's really where the answer lies.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: One thing you said early on, you were talking about the about why good people leave companies.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we've talked recently on the show on some of our industry news episodes we've had about just some of the challenges the industry at large has had with talent, with having enough people to fill the different roles that are necessary within different organizations.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So anytime a company, you know, developer or builder loses a team member, and not necessarily by choice, but that team member leaves to go somewhere else, it's a big deal.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious from what you've seen, what you know, what are some of those reasons that good people leave a company?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a variety of them.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Rarely does it have to do with title or compensation, although that can play into it, particularly if the employee leaving is under market.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a really hard market right now, all the way around.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: When talent exits a firm, that is a lagging indicator of a problem that could have been solved and probably started to show itself 12 months earlier.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so the goal is to pay attention.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: We we become complacent as leaders, and we don't do it intentionally, but it happens because everyone is short on time and it takes time to motivate, it takes time to understand someone's trajectory and where they want to be in their career.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible that there are companies that cannot give the employee what they're looking for, and that's okay.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think what happens too often is we pretend those things don't exist and we pretend they're not important, and the hard conversation never happens.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So when I typically was recruiting and would talk to someone, one of the questions I always asked in my first conversation is, why are we talking?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: What is motivating you to talk to me?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you reply to me when I reached out to you?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it is typically something along the lines of decisions, it's really hard to get things done around here.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're always looking for consensus and can never get it.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I never see my manager.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't had a one-on-one in four months.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe I can achieve my goals.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm worried about the finances.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's I I see the writing on the wall.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so as much as we as leaders think we are masking the challenges of the business because we don't want to lose people and freak them out, we are showing our hand in other ways.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and employees see that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so transparency, lack of transparency is another reason.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: When people are sitting in so much uncertainty, the challenge is we have to give them enough uncertainty when we ourselves aren't certain to motivate them to stay.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: People leave when the uncertainty of staying outweighs the uncertainty of leaving.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that is when someone leaves.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: When I think about people within an organization, leaders within an organization specifically, when I think about them and how they can, you know, be a leader, I feel like there's a I mean, there's probably more than I'm going to simplify this, but I I think of people in in two different camps.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have the camp of people that very much micromanage, um they keep, they want to keep their pulse on everything, uh, which makes it, uh and again, this is just my perspective, it it makes it difficult for them to see the big picture and actually do some of the things, but it also seemingly hurts some of the individuals on the team of not having the autonomy to make certain decisions, and so they don't necessarily release.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: For leaders out there who may fall into that camp where it's really hard to let go of some of those things that they really shouldn't be, you know, micromanaging anymore.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: How can a leader like that best shift into someone that does better give their team members that autonomy that maybe is one of the key things that would keep them there because they actually get to make some decisions within the company?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when I see a leader who is unable to let go, the first question I ask them is what is the story you're telling yourself about why you can't let go?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: That usually will lead into a fear.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I typically focus on four fears fear of success, fear of failure, feel fear of judgment, and fear of uncertainty.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And somewhere in there is a fear that the leader has, and it usually has to do with shaky trust with the person.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: The person may not have delivered before.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: The person may have delivered something that was not what the leader was looking for.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the sake of time, they think I can either do this myself and get it done right the first time, but I don't have time to develop someone to do it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: That would be the first part.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: The second part is hiring.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the right person?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Are they capable of delivering the way the leader needs to deliver?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really easy to get stuck in a mindset of I can't afford to lose this person because I don't have anyone to backfill the role and I can't have this position open, not realizing the opportunity cost of that decision in their own time as a leader.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing, and this is this is something I see fairly frequently when a leader, particularly with new leaders or leaders stepping into new roles, it happens a lot with the COO to CEO transition.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what made that person so successful in their role to earn the promotion, are the exact things they are still doing in their new role because that's what they were rewarded for.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really hard to let go of, you know, for example, a COO to a CEO, it's hard to let go of that day to day.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're in it, you're working on it every day.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: You got your hands dirty, you're down in the trenches, you're working with the front line, you're doing all of the things day to day.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: So to let that go to a new operations person is really hard because now you're doing thinking work that is not as tangible.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so that transition of doing to leading is really difficult for a lot of leaders.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you see some leaders hold on a little too tightly to the control and struggle to release it.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that said, there are times when it is appropriate to micromanage.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I prefer the term be directive.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: There are times that there that you have to be very directive with someone.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there are leadership frameworks out there that walk you through when to be directive, when to let go, and all of that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it is appropriate in certain circumstances.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: The question to ask yourself is what's the story am I telling myself about why I can't let go?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is that story true?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do I know it absolutely and do I have facts to support it?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last part of the question is, what can I do about it and how much is this gonna cost me if I continue down this path?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Something I've heard in the past is that if you have team members who are, you know, team members are gonna make mistakes.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it just it happens, it's inevitable.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the companies that fire individuals when they make mistakes are making big mistakes themselves, assuming they're not mistakes of like stealing from the company or things like that, where they should be let go from the company.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm talking they they make a mistake on a project, they they don't do something correctly, and the immediate reaction is they're gone.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've I had heard that it tends to make the others on the team see that, and then everybody just stays in their shell and nobody, nobody steps out and tries to be proactive about anything because they saw what just happened to that person and they don't necessarily want that to happen as well.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that similar similarly and have you seen that before?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things I work with, first of all, that's about risk tolerance, okay?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And going back to the four fears, it's about fear of failure, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what dictates that is the reward system within an organization.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you are penalized for speaking up, you will learn not to speak up.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you are penalized for taking risks, you will learn not to take risks.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you are penalized for making a mistake, you will become a perfectionist and it will be really hard for you to finish anything because you're afraid of making a mistake.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that I do with every team I work with is I I use an assessment called a TKI, Thomas Killman instrument instrument, and I love it in its simplicity.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: It will, it's it's a 30 question, 10 minute thing.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: It takes no time, but it gives such robust insight into the team that all of us, most of us, tend to default to two, one or two conflict styles.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's five that it measures.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: We see this play out consistently in team dynamics.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what that situation you just described is, people will avoid if it doesn't make sense, if it puts them at risk from engaging.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we look at which style to use, and every decision, every project, every decision we make is a conflict, whether it's a personal decision, we have an internal conflict, an external decision where someone's got to call the call, it's all a conflict.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: We think about conflict as just fighting and people don't get along.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I would argue that the teams that get along the best often struggle the most with healthy conflict.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: We look at four areas.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: We look at the situation, what are we dealing with, how complex is it, how stressful are the people involved in it?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: We look at the people, how important is the relationship, how important is the thing to me, to you, et cetera.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: We look at the dynamics around the situation, and we look at the reward system.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that reward system is really.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Important.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we tend to think of rewards and culture as compensation, flexibility, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the things that we get.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's actually the things a reward system is the thing, the system, the unspoken rule that drives the behavior of the organization.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if a CEO is struggling to get, why isn't anybody telling me anything?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why are people not telling me the truth?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Why are people hedging and telling me something's coming and it's not?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: The question isn't necessarily about the team.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the reward system and the precedent that has been set, whether by the CEO, the board, or someone else in the organization.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we have to dig into to understand.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that takes time to shift.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that uh it makes me think another thing too, I I guess I hear a lot in the industry, you see a lot, and this is across the board and not just development and home building, but you have a lot of people who are getting to the end of their careers, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they they may want to pass the company on to they want the company to continue to move on even after they're gone.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think a lot of people think about succession planning, especially if it's not necessarily a family business.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if it's a family business, then you do see family members in there.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's uh, you know, a son or daughter that's in the company that are um gonna take over the reins at some point.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's some sort of level of uh of that succession planning happening.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: But for the companies that aren't thinking about succession planning right now, how what is that process?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I guess at a high level, what does that process look like?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And how should they be thinking about succession planning so that way the company doesn't necessarily stop once they're gone or once they want to retire?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of thoughts on succession planning, Ryan.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um succession planning is where I see, oh, let's take it back to a conflict style again.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of founders don't think about succession planning.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: We will hear, here's some of the things I have heard.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just haven't found the right person to take my seat.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have this person on my team, but they're just not the right fit.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're not the right person.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can't see them doing the job.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can't see that person doing the job.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what it really boils down to, and there may be some truth there, but what it really boils down to nine times out of ten is the owner can't see themselves doing anything else.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where in my work we talk about, yeah, it's a fluffy word, identity, right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can I see myself doing something else?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Once once an owner is able to step out of that seat for a second mentally and begin to envision some the something else that comes after, it is really interesting how quickly they find opportunities for succession planning because then they're excited about the next chapter.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: The thing about succession planning is being okay with letting it go and having it done a different way.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: What often happens is a founder will step aside and say, I want to get out of the day today.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: They will bring in a CEO or a president or whoever to do it, but everyone else on the team is used to going to the founder, and it's really hard to disrupt that pattern because the founder wants to stay involved.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're they're leapfrogging the actual CEO, and that doesn't work either.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: The best succession plans are intentional.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: The founder has a next chapter planned and is motivated, the reward system motivated to make a change.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there is time and overlap to make that handoff.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is typically with someone who has been brought up in the organization, understands the culture, the culture's clearly defined, the roles are clearly defined, and the expectations on timing are clearly defined.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's when it works.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, succession planning is really hard for a lot of a lot of people because, again, they just can't see, they don't know what that next chapter is, and that creates uncertainty.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we are wired to avoid uncertainty at all costs.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny because as you were talking about that, I was sitting there thinking about how with this on so many levels I struggle with it personally.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh just thinking about even in my house with my kids and my wife, and like just yesterday watching, you know, my couple of my kids helping fold towels.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm and I'm I'm sitting there like, you're not folding them right.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, it's like my wife's like, Well, there's more than one way to fold it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, there's not.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: You fold it this way.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is how you fold it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I can see that, you know, with myself of like almost like an OCD level of like, I want things to look exactly like this, and I can relate that to business as well, because there's certain ways that you want things to be done, or they've always been done a certain way.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see as a leader of a company where when you give those reins over to somebody else that they may want to do things a little bit differently, and you have to be okay with that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that I can see how that could be a really challenging thing for someone who's been at at the helm of a company for many, many years and they've been successful too.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the best scenario, so you're folding towels, mine's the dishwasher, right?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally had to get myself to the point when my my son, my my 16-year-old, loads the dishwasher.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I I got myself to the point where like, you know, you know, the right way to load the dishwasher is is the way the person loading the dishwasher is loading the dishwasher.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is the right way to do it.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've kind of gotten over that hump.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, when when we believe that our way is the own way, our the our our way is the only way, we are limiting the possibility for the company.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so that kind of thinking is actually counterintuitive to what the owner really wants.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: You want your kids to grow up and be productive li productive citizens and be able to fold their own towels, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is the ultimate goal, right?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's about again, setting clear expectations, communicating, having an honest conversation, right?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: What would it look like if a founder said to the person they think could be their successor, I'm really anxious about this.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I have done things a certain way and I've been really successful, and I hope that I can impart that onto you.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: But what are we doing today that you would do differently?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me now how that would work.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Having those transparent conversations before the actual change happens would be hugely impactful because the challenge we find ourselves in is that we're so attached to the outcome, the success, the goal, the business that we can't see it objectively.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're too deep in it to be able to look up and look at it.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so having those conversations and being honest and transparent and I'm gonna say the V-word, vulnerable with your successor is really important because most people who take on a role after a a founder steps aside want to steward it well.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: The intention is to steward it well.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: They understand the gift that they're being given and the responsibility of that.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: But no leader steps up into a leadership role wanting to live out someone else's legacy.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: They want to create their own legacy.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about having those, those, those conversations.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if we fast forward a little bit into the process of where you're actually looking for those leaders in the company who could potentially step into that role, something I'm curious about from your experience is what are some of the decisions or or thought process that goes into deciding whether you should promote from within versus maybe you need to look externally to bring in somebody else with a certain expertise or experience into the company?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know a lot of people really would prefer to promote within, and that's something that they are very passionate about.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I would imagine sometimes there should be some consideration given to looking outside the company for certain positions.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if that's the case with succession planning, but just in general, but what are your thoughts on that?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: It really depends on the situation.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on, you know, the situation the company is in.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are we, you know, are we trying to go through a transformation?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are we trying to maintain what we have?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I tend to, as a as a recruiter, one of the conversations I would have with a hiring manager is why, why are we hiring externally?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we not looking internally?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, usually with something along the lines of we just don't think we have the talent and the ready.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I and my conversation will be, well, who's responsible for that?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like that question very much.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Who's responsible for that?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're not developing our people, if we're not develop as leaders, if we're not developing our bench, if we're not developing our people, that's on us.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about what what are we actually trying to solve for?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Are we trying to do some sort of innovative shift in our business model that we don't have the experience in because we've never done it before?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or are we trying to take the existing business to the next level?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And who have we given opportunities for to show that?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can't name a person internally that you've actually given opportunities for them to show their ability, that may be a point to pause and say, well, maybe the timing's not right.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I have some work to do.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to push on my, on my team a little bit to see, see what's really there.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it really depends on the situation.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's no one size fits all on that.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Something that I was always told throughout my career, and this kind of goes back to whose responsibility is it in like in uh identifying some of these things.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd always been told that when I, as a leader in a company, was looking to promote, I would always be asked, well, who is going to take your place?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: So if you as a leader don't already have someone on your team identified as who could step into your role because you haven't been training them up or whatever, and you're looking to go somewhere else, that would always be something where you'd get asked, like, well, how are you going to step into this other position and leave this spot here vacant?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who's going to take this spot?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it always tended to be almost like almost something that a the leadership level should be looking for people on their teams who have an aptitude for leadership themselves.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: They've expressed interest in it and have had some of those conversations.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that in some of the companies you work with that it's really leadership needs to do a better job of helping, you know, guide some of the people?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you want your people to be proactive as well, right?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And like they need to be the people who step up and and uh are, I guess, behind, they're the ones who are promoting their own careers, I guess is what I'm saying.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what at what level do you think some of this really falls on?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: At what level in the organization?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or what yeah, like is it is it the leaders that really should be spending more time, or do you think the people, you know, the associates in the company need to own their careers more and they need to express a little bit, um, I don't know, they need to take more control over their own careers, at the same time.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is the answer.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody needs to be thinking about who can do my job.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to get promoted, who comes behind me?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a lot of people don't want to do that, and it's a very real concern.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fear.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: What if they're successful in training their person and that person does the job better than I do it, and now I put myself out of a job?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's very real.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's especially very real in this market.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone's worried about job security, and that creates another level of uncertainty.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: But again, that goes back to culture and what the organization rewards.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in a perfect world, yes.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the questions that I like to ask a leader when I'm when I'm interviewing or when I was interviewing, is tell me about a team member that worked for you and and where are they that that that has moved, moved to your level, been promoted to your level or above.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is a sign to me that that person really invests in developing people.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: A really good and selfless leader will want people to the best, the best answer is I actually ended up working for them at another company.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is the selflessness that leadership requires because you have the organization as the priority while also looking out for yourself, because that's a really good, that's a really good way to give back.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can go into mentoring, we can go into all of that.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think at the end of the day, of course, leaders need to be developing the next generation of talent.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of mid-level leaders right now in our industry who are chomping at the bit to take the next step, and there's just not a lot of opportunity.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: So how can you figure out how to give these gives your team opportunities to lead that aren't just promotion driven?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are plenty of opportunities to lead and own accountability within an organization that don't require a raise and don't require a title.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get creative?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do we partner with other leaders?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do we partner with other organizations to give our teams these opportunities to be able to grow exactly where they are?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Growth doesn't always have to mean a promotion or a raise or leaving your company and going somewhere else.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, to your point, we all need to act like the CEOs of our own career and have a plan and figure it out and look for opportunities and create opportunities where may not where none may exist.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So speaking of those mid-level leaders, um, because I know we have a lot of them listening in to the show, what uh what are some things that they can do to make it known or to better um, I guess to figure out their path that they can go?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it and even whether the company that they're currently in has a path to get to where they want to go versus maybe they need to be looking elsewhere for, you know, for their career path.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: The first question they should be asking their manager is what does mastery look like in my current role?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Too often we set our sights on the next thing and we haven't truly mastered the current thing.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so how what does mastery look like in my current role?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And how far away am I?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Get really good at your current role, master it and then look for stretch assignments, then network, look outside the organization, not for a job, but for people, resources, mentors, people that you can talk to and model and reach out to and learn from.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Too often, I see way too often those mid-level frontline, you know, zero to seven, zero to ten year career that that time frame are waiting for their companies to hand them the opportunity, to hand them the development, to hand them the growth.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not how it's done anymore.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about going out and, you know, I'm involved in Ladies in Land and Dudes in Development.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's good, it's getting involved in organizations like that that are gonna create educational opportunities for you, give you access to an executive coach, give you access to educational webinars, not only on your technical trade, your technical skills, but also on your interpersonal skills and how do you become a better leader?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's owning that.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: That growth and development stays with you your whole career, whether a company pays for it or not.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I encourage everyone to get really serious about that.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Own it like a CEO.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a plan?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know where you want to be in five years?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: People bristle at having a five-year plan.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know how many CEOs create a five-year plan and two years in change it?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're allowed to change it.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's allowed to change.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: It should change.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: It should be fluid.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: It should be a living, breathing object that you come back to time and time again.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Revisit quarterly.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you give yourself a quarterly review?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do you keep a journal of your successes?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you track where you've succeeded and do you track your failures?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you talk to your manager about a failure you recently had and what you learned from it?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: These are all things that are fully within our control.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: And too often we feel like we have no control over and we hand the control over to everyone else, our company, our HR department, learning development, our manager.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not the world we live in.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to take ownership of our own growth and development.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had this problem younger when I was younger in my career, where I would We all did, Ryan.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I thought, I thought I was just waiting.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was just waiting for that moment where they were going to pluck me and put me into that leadership role because I was doing such a good job.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I sat there and sat there and sat there.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably I would say a couple of years went by before I finally realized that I needed to take ownership over it, express the interest, find out, ask the questions and everything.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I had that illusion in my mind of someone's just going to come and like select me and pick me up, move me over here into this role.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh again, that was a number of years ago.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: And even then, it wasn't how things were.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: You had to truly, you know, like you said, be the CEO of your own career and actually take ownership over it and figure out what that path is, make it known what your interests are and everything to your own leader and stuff.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, it took me a while.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: It took me a while to figure that out.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely understand people falling into that same trap when they're early in their own careers.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and it's okay to not know.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's the myth.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: We feel like we gotta know.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to not know.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Our job is to go out and talk to as many people as we can to help us figure out what we want so that we know and we have something we're working towards.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: You would never have a salesperson without a quota, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: They know what the goal is, they know what they're driving towards.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully they know how to work backwards and how many calls, sales, traffic, all of that to get there.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is no different.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: We are all salespeople.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta sell ourselves.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: No one's no, to your point, no one's looking.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: No one has time to be looking.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: The true elite leaders are always looking.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: They are few and far between.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because of time and demand and pressure.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So make it easy for your manager.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Tell them all the successes you've had.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Here's something I'm really proud of.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Here's something I'm stuck on and I don't know how to solve it.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help me?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: I really failed on this one.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say something else, but I really failed on this one.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I but here's what I learned.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's taking advantage of all the opportunities, not just the ones that look shiny and pretty on the outside.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've got one other thing I want to dig into here, and then uh we can we can uh get into the last segment of the show.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to talk about the right people on the right seat.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: So for again, for the developers out there, for the builders out there listening in, or even any the engineering firms, any of the people that are listening in, when they're thinking about, you know, do we have the right people on the bus number one?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then do we have the right people in the right seats on that bus?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the whole good to great, you know, motto or um uh I guess example that was used.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think companies can best figure out if they do have the right people on the bus number one?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then what are some things that they can do to validate whether they have the right people in the right roles in their company?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not an organizational design expert, but here's what I have seen from my recruiting seat and what I see now in my leadership seat or my leadership advisory seat.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I have this conversation frequently.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, I would I would ask them, first of all, do you know the job that the person was hired to do?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds really basic, but lots of leaders inherit teams.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they look at the title and they look at what they think the person's supposed to do, but they've never actually seen the job description that that person was hired to do.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I would get the job description and make sure you're clear on what job that person is at was actually hired to do.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if that is misaligned from what you're observing them doing, then that's a conversation.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the job you were hired to do.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Help me understand how it shifted to the job you're actually doing.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Step one.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Step two, is the job you need them to do today the same job that they were hired under three years ago?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Often, when someone leaves, we dust off the same job description and go out and hire the next person.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that implies that the company did not change or evolve in any way over three years, and we know that's not realistic.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: So is the job that the person was hired to do today the same job that you needed them to do three years ago when they were hiring?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And more importantly, is it the same job that the company needs them to do in order to get to where they want to go three years from now?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: That may have shifted.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: The skill set could have shifted.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is not nobody's fault.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is business, right?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Business, business, life, things change.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at is the job they're doing today what I need them to do today?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is the job they're doing today what I need them to be doing tomorrow?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or is the job they're doing today the job the company needed three years ago and we need to make a change?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you figure that out.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, last thing here I want to dig into is you you had mentioned a little bit ago your involvement with Ladies and Land and Dudes in Development.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh obviously the podcast has partnered with both of the organizations.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And just uh wanted to get your quick thoughts on your experience so far um working with Ladies and Land, uh, just you know, both from a executive coach standpoint, but just being involved in the organization.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's been a really great opportunity.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: The the topics that that organization provides access to for their members are so valuable.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm also very involved in ULI.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: I co chair a ULI product council in community development, and I get ideas.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: ideas for my content through some of the stuff that's on their content because it's really rich and it's very specific and it's very technical and it provides education at a very low cost to anybody who is in land who wants to be a part of it and they're going to learn about things that they may not otherwise get exposed to.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be a great example of just because the company isn't handing you an opportunity to get exposure, you can go get that exposure yourself.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's number one.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where I get involved is I have a community there and I hold um for ladies in land specifically, I typically will do one of two types um webinars with them, community meetings, where they can submit questions to me and ask questions.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the things that I'm getting asked questions on are so great.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: They are real problems that people experience in the job in the job on a daily basis.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Never has a question been brought in that no one someone else in the group is like, I've never had to experience that.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's multiple people have experienced it.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: So peer feedback is really valuable.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you know, it can be lonely if you're in a job, if you're the only person in your role responsible for a certain skill set, a certain job to get done, something along those lines.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to have access to peers who are also in that similar career stage, similar circumstances, to be able to bounce ideas off of and realize, okay, this is normal.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is normal.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's normal that no one knows what's happening in the market.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's normal that I am confused about this certain topic.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's normal that I'm struggling, you know, to get what I need from a city planner.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's all normal.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a really rich community and it's been really rewarding to see these women particularly with ladies in land, you know, support one another and share ideas and share advice and guidance in their experience.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of my philosophy with this show too as I do these interviews I know that I'm going to ask questions that are quote unquote dumb questions, but there's at least one person listening.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Even if there's just one person listening, they will be happy that I asked that question.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: And there'll be other people that'd be like they'll know the answer and everything.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that I ask questions that a lot of people listening in probably know the answer to, but there are other people out there listening in that are happy I asked that question.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I like asking those, you know, dumb questions because they there are people that wonder the same thing that you're wondering.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not just you.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's that's right.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what just because you're asking uh I I think those are the best questions, right?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just because you're asking a question that someone thinks they know the answer to, they may get a different perspective from the person who answers the question.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's so important to show up at work in life as a leader from a position of curiosity versus judgment.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: I follow Frances Fry.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: She's a Harvard Business School professor.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't follow her, you should follow her.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: She's great.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: She talks about curiosity versus judgment.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when you approach a problem from a position of curiosity, I'm curious.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to I just want to understand your perspective versus judgment.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm judging your perspective in this question.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: It changes the entire dynamic of the conversation and the entire experience for both people.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the wonderful thing is you cannot do both at the same time.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is impossible to be curious and judge judging at the same time.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: So well let's go ahead and shift into the last segment which is lightning round.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got five questions for you.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: First question what is the most important trait that you look for in a future leader?
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Adaptability.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Adaptability and a willingness to take feedback constructive feedback.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right second one what is the most underrated leadership skill?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Emotional regulation.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain what emotional regulation is?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you're on a flight and there's turbulence and people are freaking out who's the first person you look to I look at the flight attendant.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're calm, cool and collected right because they are emotionally regulated in that moment.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: As leaders it is our job to be emotionally regulated and look calm, cool and collected no matter the level of pressure, no matter the situation, because the people who are counting on us as their leader are always watching us.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think emotional regulation is very important.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you're flying off the handle if you're throwing things if you're rolling your eyes if you're getting irritated and frustrated and snappy that that is not what your team needs.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: They need emotional regulation.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right third one what is the biggest red flag you see when interviewing someone rehearsed answers.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to be prepared it's another thing to be mechanical.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think too often in interviews candidates try to impress instead of trying to be authentic and when candidates try too hard to impress they end up in cultures that are not aligned with who they are and it makes it really hard for them.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to add one thing on to this just because it's a funny story.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh I have interviewed someone before for a position hired them for the position and a completely different person showed up to the job.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh first experience with that that was pretty wild.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: How did that turn out?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they weren't there very long because they led they led with dishonesty so that did not did not work well for them.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah dishonesty about who we are right be who you are be who you are.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right fourth one what makes someone an a player on a team mindset.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know they're all soft skills but and I hate that we call them soft skills because they're really hard but an a player is able to like re not to toot my own horn but I consider myself an A player right is able to reframe and go from okay this is this is my buyer there's nothing I can do.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want basements.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right well I better go find a new buyer otherwise I'm not going to be able to pay my rent.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you go and find a new buyer.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's being able to reframe self-coach and have a good mindset and be able to shift shift your mindset.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: All right last one what is the biggest mistake leaders make when hiring they look for the right now candidate instead of the right candidate and the reason they do that is they probably don't spend enough time on the front end figuring out who the right candidate actually is.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to use a football analogy here.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if this I don't know if this fits but when you think about the NFL draft and you think about how you'll you can basically draft someone for a need you have or you can draft the best available player.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is that similar to kind of what you're talking about here where you're you might be picking a need that you need this offensive lineman, but the offensive lineman is the 30th you know best available whereas you could go grab the someone that is positioned 30 spots ahead of them.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: They may not be a need right now but they have like the overall skills that could be good qualities for your for your team in general.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is that maybe I'm using the wrong analogy here completely I'm I'm thinking of Brady who went in the sixth round I mean who would have saw that right like you'd never know.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you know I think I think it I think you have to be that's where the clarity comes in Ryan right you have to be very clear on what the right candidate is.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the right candidate may be we have got to get the O-line in order or our quarterback isn't going to be able to he's going to be on his back the entire game.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or it could be look our O-line's pretty good I think with some new coaching we got a new O-line coach coming in.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: We might be able to make this work under a new system, you know, yeah maybe we take the best player that's available to us and see if we can work him in the system somehow.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that's where being clear on what the right candidate is comes in.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it.com that will take you to a free resource that I have for leaders when they go into their next meeting to understand are some of the decisions they're making, is there a problem with conflict here?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do I see a problem with decision that I'm not aware of and three questions to take into their next meeting to maybe get a bit of better outcome with that.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then my website is AlisonChristina withawilliams.com.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if you guys look in the description for this episode you'll see a link there to the show notes page and on the show notes page will be those links.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Alison really appreciate hopping on here and talking through it we covered a lot of ground here.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's a lot more we could cover but we got through quite a bit and that was uh really good stuff.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you taking the time to hop on here and share this.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me Ryan I enjoyed it.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right guys that's all for this episode if you're not already subscribed please click that button we'd love to have you back for the next one otherwise we will talk to you all next week