Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / How Powerful Networking Practices Creates the Ultimate Work Life Balance - Chris Daems

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How Powerful Networking Practices Creates the Ultimate Work Life Balance - Chris Daems · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, it's Tam H from the Financial Panel of Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, welcome, welcome.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is Chris Thames.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Chris is the owner of a company called Stavello.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Chris is charted financial advisor.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's been building his business over the last 12 years.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's such a interesting, happy character.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Loved talking to him.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually owned podcast as well that we talk about.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the kindest project out of 50,000 downloads.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about being kind and sharing good news.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's well worth checking out.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Kindness runs through his value to this company and we go into detail about that.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: First today test his journey, why he sets up his own business.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: When from network to directly authorized, we talk about that.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about business development.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what comes first when setting up your own business?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: To be focused on generating clients or introduced relationships.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And he starts that today also.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Something that he does on a monthly basis where he meets up with other industry professionals, creates a case study, and then through that, he's generating huge amounts of business.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll go into a bit more detail about that on the podcast, but it's a fantastic business development tool, especially for those that are planning to run their own business.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today, I hope you enjoy the podcast.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Many thanks.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, thank you so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm well, Sam.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pleasure to get involved.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm really excited about what we're going to talk about today.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're in the right place, Chris, because we'll talk about financial planning careers.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the podcast is all about.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's fantastic to get somebody on who actually runs their own business, not only runs their own business, has done it for 12 years, and it's directly authorized.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's plenty of people out there sitting in an employed role as a financial planner thinking, if only I ran my own business, wouldn't it be better?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I think I think one thing you'll get from me is the brood to honesty in terms of the pros and the cons.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there and and certainly there's plenty of both.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is exactly what we want is the complete and utter honesty.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the podcast is all about.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm sure there'll be lots of inspiration there as well, not just the worst parts of running your own business.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be sitting here if it didn't work for me, right?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: But um there's yeah, there's there's certainly I I I always I always come to this sort of conclusion that to do anything in life, the pros have got to right weigh the cons, haven't they?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I I absolutely love it.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you what then, Chris.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start there then.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you run your own business, you've been running that for the last 12 years.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's just go to the very, very beginning.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: What made you run your own financial planning business?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: What was the sort of catalyst to do that?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think the catalyst was uh frustration.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I worked my last corporate job was with um uh independent financial planning business that was owned by AXA at the time.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And AXA had effectively amalgamated a number of um financial planning businesses together, um, and just the culture wasn't particularly right at the place that worked.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it didn't reflect who I was as a as a professional, who I was as a as an individual.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um arrogantly at the time, Sam, and I've learned the lesson for this over the past 12 years, I thought it'd be easier just to do better than that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and that's been a that's been a learning journey as well.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I came home, uh, my daughter, who's 18 now and was six at the time, uh, was was there, and my wife was there, and uh said to Cassie, look, I think I just need to take, instead of going back into another employed role, take this as a sign to um start a business.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and she went, What are you doing?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you ever like sort of want to take that jump?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I said, well, if I don't do it now, uh what I'm gonna 45, so sort of mid-30s, early 30s at the time.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: If I don't do it now, I don't think I'm ever gonna take that jump.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know, I know that people do it at different stages of their life, but for me it was really important to see whether we could we we could do it then.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and she went, oh, okay, trust you, believe in you, think it's really important for you for you to do.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Look, if it if it doesn't work out, employment's always the the option to to move back to.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: At that point, I went upstairs and uh Charlotte was crying saying, which is never a good sign as a dad.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I said to her, What's the matter?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: She she said, Well, I heard like she's only got she's only a baby now six.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: She went, Dad, you're leaving your job.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Who's gonna pay for the holidays now?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that was her reaction to this like and and I I mean I love the fact that from those naive eyes, that just that that like sort of uh pus uh uh perspective came.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So left, uh initially joined a network.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we're a directly authorized firm now, child's a directly uh authorized firm, but um joined a network initially because I think at the time it was starting a brand new business.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: What I needed to do is focus on client acquisition, making sure that I was building a good base, um uh and not all of the sort of compliant side.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the first two years professionally were the toughest two years of my life.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had a really great time with family and and everything seemed to work, but I'd made a promise to Charlotte and Cassie that probably about six to eight times over that two-year uh period I thought I wasn't gonna be able to deliver on and I'd have to have to go back and get a job.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and part of that was because, as you know, financial planning is a uh is a um profession where trust is fundamentally important.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I just hadn't built built a reputation up uh working in corporates where that trust was earned, you know, like the professionals that we work with now, you know, we've got sort of a decade-long relationship of working together, and it's fundamentally different and easier.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh and it just when you first start, um, you you just don't have that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I suppose I suppose one tip, one mistake that I made at the time, and one tip I'd give for anybody who's thinking about making that transition is build those relationships now.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um don't rely on on the um your company uh building those relationships for you, build independent, deep relationships of trust of the people uh with the people you think you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna work with over the longer term.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they might be, you know, a lot of our best introducers and now existing clients, they result in about 65% of our new work.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but typically accountants, lawyers, so build that network and those and those relationships now.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: So two years were really difficult.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: We started to get some traction sort of uh after two years, and then got to a point where um about nine years ago now we decided that um we decided that the network model for us didn't work moving forward.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Now, a couple of reasons for that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: We built a decent economy of scale within the business, so actually the fees and the support we could buy in made more sense to do it independently.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as we've as we've already mentioned, um Sam, and when we've had a conversation, everything I do in my life is based on a really simple set of values.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's what I try and do, it's what I try and teach my kids, um, and it's what's reflected in in our business.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um and they're really, as I say, they're really simple.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: So number one is uh fairness, so transparent pricing structures, making sure clients are aware of what they pay.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm taking the brave move, and I'm I'm sure we can talk about this later, of uh of doing completely transparent pricing on our website now, which is uh which is a new one for me.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I I read a book recently that had a really good argument to uh to doing this, and I I think I'm gonna I'm gonna take that jump.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: So fairness, you know making sure that sort of people know uh know where they stand, focus on improvement.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly the business is better now uh than it was 12 years ago, and I hope as an individual I'm better now than I was 12 years ago, and that journey continues.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, had we had we help our staff, help our team develop, make sure that we're making those incremental gains every day to be better for our clients and better for us.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um FUD.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we have got one really important rule at Sabello, and this is definitely a first world problem and something I wouldn't have been able to do at the start of the business.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: But the rule is we only work with clients we like.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um now the reason that's important is because I do love to work, but I want to make sure I'm enjoying it.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the satisfaction you get from helping somebody who you really engage with is fundamentally different than just dialing it in.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we choose to only help the people that we've got a really close, deep personal relationship with.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that you know, that that makes our job fun.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's important.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then the big one is do well, do good.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we've been lucky enough over the past 12 years to to grow the bee uh business to a sustainable level.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we can still continue to grow, but we're certainly sustainable, and I believe in giving back.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: So if we've been lucky enough to uh to make sure that we're we're never gonna need to worry about money again, what can we do to make sure that we're in a position where we're helping others?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Chris, lovely overview.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was really interesting.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a couple of things have come up for me here in your journey.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go back to those first two years then.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: What were the toughest time?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there's something that you brought up there, and you you didn't say I 100% agree with you around the building relationships.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a um a relationship-focused role, such as financial planning, and you're planning on going into your own, you know, running your own business.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I always say to people, look, you know, why don't you get a piece of paper and why don't you write down your A clients, your B clients, and your C clients?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: A being total advocates, you could pop down the pub with another pint, B Ping people that you work with, but you know pretty well, you know, you could probably you could probably connect with them, D being everybody else.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I always say that to someone, say, go away and do that and then come back to me and let me know.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things you brought in there, which I don't tend to sort of say as much, is the is around the um introducers.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is the most important thing then?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Introducer relationships and when you very first start a business or existing client relationships?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it I mean for me it depended on the employment contract, and I had a restrictive covenant in my last employed role.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: So reliance on taking clients to start your firm depends on the relationship you've got with your existing employer and um how likely it is you're going to have a bank of clients from day one.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: So my situation was I had a restrictive covenant within my contract.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I did go through a negotiation process with my employer and took took about eight clients with me, but it certainly wasn't enough to sustain a business from day one.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so reliance on being able to because you know, if if I consider my role as a business owner, if an advisor joined us and then said, okay, by the way, I'm taking 20-year better clients, I probably wouldn't be happy with that either.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so reliance on developing your own independent, both client and introducer relationships as early as you can, um, is fine.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it even if you don't take the self-employed or business ownership role, it's not going to do your career any harm, is it, having those relationships?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it works all the way around.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to things like introducer relationships, if somebody's kind of starting out on their own at the moment or they're entering in the world of financial planning, they're in the first couple of years, what advice would you give to somebody starting out around going out and building introducer relationships?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first piece of advice is see how you can help.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I don't I don't think that's bad advice in any relationship you build, including client relationships.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, the the the most powerful thing you can do is listen, see how you can help, and then actively uh work out how you're going to support that individual.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the amount of giving, uh, you know, the amount of sort of connecting people I do, the amount of making sure that the right people in my network meet the right people in my network I do, not all none of that's paid, clearly it's that, but you just do it to make sure that you're the center point of the um of those relationships, so that when one of their clients needs a financial planner, um that sort of speak to.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: I want to share something as well that's been really super powerful for us over the past uh six years that we've been doing.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: So once a month we run an event.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that event's called Savalo Inner Circle, and what it involves is um uh getting a uh wide range of our professional partners in the room.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got lawyers there, we've got accountants, we've got HR professionals, we've got a wide range of professionals, and what I do every month is uh write a case study, and that case study is based on a client of mine, but with a wide range of needs.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um and what we do is we get you know 15 to 20 of our professional partners in the room, and we all discuss from their unique professional perspective how they might be able to help that client.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And there's some real key advantages for me for doing that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, it helps me work out who I can trust to refer to.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: So is there a particular area of expertise that a client a client that I've got needs and therefore I can refer?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Number two, it deepens the relationship in the room, but without us being the being the facilitator to do that.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I worked out, we did we did some sort of uh client analysis the other day, 20% of our work as a practice comes from the people who attend those events.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we host them, we pay for them, we buy everybody lunch, because as a as a way to really, really nurture and encourage the professionals in your life to get together, we found pays off in a big way.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what kind of people do you invite then?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the these types of individuals that you generate business through, and what walks of life are they?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of businesses do they run?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's called inner circle for a reason, because the first rule is we only want people in our inner circle who would be like, right?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Circle of trust.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: So but but the but the idea is that um they they're really good at what they do.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: So typically the accountants that come on are from mid-sized practices, so you know, not sole traders, but really sort of really decent um sort of partners in uh mid-size accounting practices, law the lawyers that tend to that Zane.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the business coaches tend to be fairly independent in terms of the way the way they add, but they need to they need to have shown me that they can add value to a particular client through the conversations we've had.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: So effectively we hand pick the people who tend, particularly if we're facilitating our relationship, it's based on who we pick, right?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important that we sort of maintain the degree of quality, but get enough diversity so that when we um when we do a case study, uh there's a really interesting conversation.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then the other thing um is um I always try and throw because I'm an 80s kid, I was born in 10.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I always tr try and make sure that all of the names in uh in the case study are um are just reflect an 80s TV show that I love.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I think my latest one contained all the uh all of the all of the names from Fraggle Rock, just just to make it a bit of entertaining as we're doing it.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, it's a good it's it's from a from a really fun to run, but from a business development point of view, deepening those relationships has been really important.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and my my experience has been I don't need hundreds of professional connections.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, our experience in terms of growing our business is 10 good ones, 20 good ones of of the right people in the room is far more powerful than just loose loose relationships.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, I'd like to just delve a little bit deeper into this because I think the model that you've created there, this meetups model, this inner circle where you do generate business through professional connections, not everybody's doing that, and a lot of people struggle to do this.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to dig a little bit deeper, if you don't mind.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say you bring these people together, you do this on a face-to-face basis.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever done it online at all, or has it always been face-to-face?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, every every month during the pandemic, we ran it online.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So uh and what was interesting about that, Sam, is we also um used the online meetups uh as content.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we posted it on LinkedIn, it was posted on the website, um, because then it helps the people within my inner circle to promote themselves on our on our social media channels.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: So um what what we do find though is that it just works better face to face because of the sort of depth of the relationships you build.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, certainly doing it online is is is feasible.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um you mentioned as well that you facilitate it and there was a work, uh there was a case study there.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just sort of so when you when you facilitate it, because you're the only financial planner in the room, I take it, yeah?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um interestingly, we have invited other financial planners into the room who are interested in adopting the concept, right?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, if they've if they've if I've you know spoke to a financial planner about what we do and they want to experience it, yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I again do well, do good, Sam is one of my big things.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: So if I can support somebody who's thinking about how to market their business and this idea might be something that they can use, it's probably it's probably bet best for for them and for actually me helping them to just invite them in for a time.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: But if they turn up once a month, I'd probably have something to say about that.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I get it.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I do know what I share all the time, I share things all the time.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And recruitment was one of recruitment was one of those sectors where no one talked to each other.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas now I go in and I meet up with people, we sit down, I give them a bit of information about how to run a podcast and the success I've had off the back of it, and they give me information about other areas of maybe a market that I haven't worked in.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's really interesting.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for a little while, um, and this was 2017 to 2019, I used to do advisor marks to mine's in in London, yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and you know, a bunch of really good advisors getting together, sharing experience, and it it's weird because you know, just doing that, I'm sitting there facilitating that and sort of setting up the venue and sort of and and just asking the question at the start, and then I'm there with my notepad going, we don't do that, but should is so powerful.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just I don't I mean, if you look at the numbers, Sam, in terms of the amount of advisors out there and the amount of clients we need to help.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, there's never going to be any real composite uh competition.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Not at all.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: So so all all getting better just makes sense to me.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love the fact it's it's like that.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's it's not Jason Priestley, is it?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's um Daniel Priestley.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Daniel Priestley, key person of key person of influence, isn't it?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I read that book and I found that really, really helpful.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I've this is where I've positioned myself as a key person of influence underneath the financial planning life within the financial planning profession.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be known as the go-to person when it comes to recruitment within the profession.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's quite as simple as that.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it comes through giving back information to those that you're trying to support.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting because as a recruiter, we were never really kind of we're kind of one of those like a state agent, I think.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, not everybody loves a recruiter, but I'm getting a lot of love and getting a lot of feedback and a lot of interest from those within the profession because I bring out of the profession um experience and sharing and knowledge.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I I genuinely think, like in your profession, certainly in ours over the past you know, 30 odd years, um the the the model has changed, hasn't it?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a sales model anymore.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a relationship service model.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And the sooner we come to realize that, the sooner we realise that that involves then the value add stuff that hopefully you do.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully I do.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you facilitate it, you have a case study.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is what do you mean?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you come up with an idea of what a typical type of client situation, or and then you go out and pick the people that come along to your meeting.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how it works?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: How does it work?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we've we've got within within the inner circle, we've we've got about 30 attendees that attend on a regular base.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's um in one particular meeting, we've probably got about 15 to 20 that come along.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I can we do it all on Eventbrite because it's a really good platform to run it efficiently.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I can see who's coming along, and then right within the case study, the elements that where they might add value.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So typically it's an owner-managed business because a lot of my clients are are um uh owner-managed business founders.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and typically they might have um give you an example, uh, thinking about exiting the business in 10 years.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do they define value within the business or pass it on to their kids and you know what to do on that?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, employment law issues, because because working with teams, there might be that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, managing the money and managing their cash flow, so an accountant can help with that, and then what do they do to efficiently plan for that exit and their own financial future?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, what we do is we riot it with one family, typically in mind, but with a range of different issues.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Typically, Sam my clients are within that sandwich generation as well, you know, older, older kids, uh, but also uh older parents.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: So effectively, a lot of it is around, you know, pair of attorneys, wills, care, all of that conversation.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And what's interesting about it is the fact that you might have one line in a case study where the HR lawyer looks at it one way, the employment lawyer looks at it one way, the accountant looks at it another way, and as a chart financial planner I might look at it in a different way.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: But that conversation is really interesting.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And how long do these meetings go on for?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh about two and a half hours, two and a half to three hours.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: We normally uh sort of have have a bite to eat, so we normally do it through lunch.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, just really, really sort of um diverse dialogue, and then we encourage people to connect and catch up uh meetings for a bit more of an in-depth conversation.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the relationships are formed, and then you become front of mind.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when anything comes up and it's financial planning related, perhaps the person who deals with, I don't know, the selling of businesses and acquisitions or something remembers the financial planner, Chris, who could then potentially help in that situation.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, my my my experience tells me that you know, if you're selling the business and you haven't got your own personal financial plan in place, you're probably doing something wrong.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Where does that sound of that business fit into your personal strategy?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a business owner.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I got like 22 guys working for me.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: We'll probably do 1.3 million this year.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I have a and it's so many of us business owners that just don't really haven't really thought about it because you've just been literally holding on by the steam of your pants for the last few years, thinking like, and all of a sudden it's like, hang on, I've got a business here that's now running and doing quite well.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and of value, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And of value.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm starting to look at it going, like, well, hang on a second, what am I actually what am I doing about my pension?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: What am I doing about my exit strategy?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm 41 years old, and I'm I'll be honest with you, Chris.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting here thinking, I'm not, I'm not thinking about it properly at all.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, I I I think I mean I'm 45, so we're not a million miles away from uh I mean you've clearly got a lot more here than me, you say, which I'm you know I'm I'm getting a bit jealous of.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the reality is um is how often do we go, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is what we need to do, head down, work on the business, continue to grow and build it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we all need somebody to turn around and go, right, is it time to lift our head up and go, what's that over there?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Where where is all of this heading?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what do we need to achieve?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you do that alone.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, certainly as a financial planner, we can we can add value, but if if business sal is part of the overall strategy, getting an expert in to add value on that, I think is probably part of our job.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: And building the right team to support our clients is is is the right thing to do as well.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: The meetups, I'm I'm actually bringing out the financial planner life meetups, and we're gonna have one in every region of the UK, but we're gonna start online and do it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the sort of model that we're gonna approach is by bringing specific guest speakers in, like a kind of lunch and like a lunch and learn, and invite people to attend, and then we might do a piece on something like um diversity and inclusivity in the recruitment process, and we might get an expert come in and talk about mental health within the business.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it could be somebody talking about exit strategies, um, etc.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really looking forward to getting that set up.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: But this year, where I've been where I've set up the financial plan of life and I'm starting to network in other areas, so I'm setting up lots of different sectors of financial plan of life, like financial plan of life, strategic partnerships with intermediaries, like investment houses, big tech companies, and I'm bringing them all on the podcast, but I'm also creating like sort of networking um abilities, a bit like um, you know, like Octo members.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Octo members.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit like that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been talking to him actually over there, and he's gonna help me out, actually.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's gonna help me out with that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's really cool.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I love where you are with that.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a lot of people with with as when you run a business, it's this kind of idea of like, well, and a lot of people do struggle with introducers.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: I speak to a lot of financial advisors that really struggle with how to develop introducer relationships.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: So what you shared there is really, really valuable.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's something that you can look forward to.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, at the center of it all is building meaningful close relationships.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And working on and working on maintaining those relationships is the is the is the important thing for me.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I don't think any I don't think I don't wake up in the morning and go, you know what, I don't think any of our clients either do this either.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you know what, I really need spit to Chris today, you know.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: I really need a financial planner.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I think you know what our our service is a service that um you just need to be there when the time's right.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not something that you can sell, it's something that you need to you just you just need to be around when when people are ready to buy.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh so if that's the case, how do we make sure, as you say, we're front of mind for the people that we know we've already got a relationship of trust with when they're ready to introduce us.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And also, as well, I think social media can often muddy the mind because you sort of mentioned there 10 to 20 people.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we go on social media and you're getting, I don't know, I can get 10,000, 15,000 views of a bit of content that I put out there and you feel fantastic because 15,000 people have seen what it is you posted.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't have a and I might I might only have a relationship with say 10 to 15 of those on a personal level.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're saying there as well is that don't think so big.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Micro, create a micro community of really meaningful close connections because once you've got 20 amazing close connections, they're only going to refer you on to their network, to their network, to their network, and the opportunities start to open up more and more and more.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, it's it's an interesting one, isn't it?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because I look, I I'm I'm a massive advocate for the power of social media to to to to build brand and to get to get attention, certainly when it comes to the podcast, you know, 50,000 downloads a month.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: We look at that and go, you know, you know, we don't even know 50,000 people, you know what I mean?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's weird when you look at it from that perspective.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um but when it comes to such a personal service and such a such a service, and I don't I think sometimes we underestimate how difficult it is for clients to talk about money with people like us.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um uh and yes, you know, there's guys out there like Pete Matthew who build amazing online brands and you know, but a lot of time for for what Pete does, um, and and that's worked really well.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't need that many relationships to do that.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: All I need to do is have 20 really good ones who say Grizzly's your man and you need to go and have a chat.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but getting the combination right between the sort of why view and the sort of the macro and the micro, I think is important as well.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think having them run in unison and not expecting one is going to outweigh the other, I think you need to put as much energy into each.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, you know, one validates the other as well, doesn't it?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like you know, pe people look online and uh um and we we did a sort of you know our next big innovation on the website's gonna be super transparent priority.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: But the the one that we changed this year is effectively, if you go on the Zabella website, all it is is videos about clients talking about us.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's all it is.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and and highlighting the fact that actually it's not what we say about ourselves, it's what clients say about the experience that's important.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: The testimonial videos.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Have you found those testimonial videos to actually be beneficial in attracting new clients to you?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um hundred percent, but in conjunction with the marketing suite we've built.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: So the way the way that we we do exam is um uh effectively clients uh if if a client gets introduced to us, we send them a pack and it contains a digital version of um of this document.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the family, which contains uh there's gonna be no surprises here, our values on page one.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: So here's what we're about.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um if we're reliant on some of those values, it's probably gonna work.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit about the process and a little bit about the um about the service we deliver.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we also send them a bio, our investment journey, and we actively ask them to do a bit of homework.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we say what we want you to do, because this isn't a decision you want to make lightly, because you're when what we want is a long-term relationship with all of our clients.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're gonna commit to us, like we're gonna commit to you, it's gonna be over a 10 to 20 year period.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um so do some homework, make sure you're comfortable with working with us even before you start to meet with us.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the bit that I was scared about, um, and the bit that I'm only just pushing the button on, is they'll now get a document saying this is what we cost, this is um how we compare to the market, um, and this is what you get in terms of value.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: That'll be another bit of homework that clients need to do.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and effectively, what it does mean is that clients come in and see us, and our our conversion ratios, for want of a better word, are pretty high because of the suite of materials they get even before they walk in the door.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, amazing, cool.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you're a big investor in marketing then that's important to you?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, I mean marketing marketing is important, but so is thinking about the client journey.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so what does a first uh touch with Sabello look like?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um how does that look and how do we make sure that the the the process of working with us um is as thoughtful as possible?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I often I often don't think enough, and this is being honest, I often don't think enough about the customer journey, yeah, especially within my business.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: It can be quite transactional recruitment.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm trying to develop more around the customer journey, the touch points and how we communicate with people, how we get back to people, even if they haven't been successful, that kind of stuff.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just to just to make sure people are feeling like they are connected to us.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we're bringing a lot more automation into our business.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean to help us do that.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is right, interesting, uh, really interesting, isn't it?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's uh you know, the the nature of finding a job is transactional, but the nature of finding somebody you try to guide your career is potentially be a 30-year relationship, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, once you find somebody do a good job with them, they always come back to you.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: They always, you know, and but the thing is as well with recruitment is that they're bombarded all the time with with recruiters.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there is no, there doesn't tend to be a huge amount of loyalty because if I, you know, if I've got a great relationship with a with a financial advisor, but someone you know, a brand new spotty little kind of 18-year-old uh phones up and offers them a fantastic opportunity, they're gonna go, right, then you put me forward.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like that in that game.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to be careful because why on social media I'm always trying to be out there, I'm always trying to talk, but I'm always trying to present like the guys in my business as well and bringing them onto the podcast.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we're doing more and we're building more and more around that online presence.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: So most people, when they're either, you know, they're out there looking for a job, um, they're on social media, but it's mainly the passive candidates.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's what we call passive, when they're not looking, they're the most interesting candidates because the one that's looking, it becomes hyper competitive.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the one that's not looking, the likelihood they're not talking to anybody.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you present them the right job at the right time, yeah, then there's a high chance that they're going to take the job.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the highest thing there needs to be a relationship of trust there, which is why the common supports that, doesn't it?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly that.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you you originally set it out set out as a network and then decided to go directly authorized.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now for those that don't know or listening to this podcast, the network is do you want to give in a quick overview, Chris, what on what a network is and what it did?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: So a network typically provides a framework of support to financial planners who want to become business owners but aren't ready to take the jump into dealing with everything it takes to run a directly authorised firm.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be an individual on a self-employed basis, taking on the branding of that network to make it look like it's all their own business, but all they've got to do is go out and see the fun, you know, go out and see clients, and then they put the client documentation through the network.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: The network does all the rest, does all the compliance, etc., etc., and takes a nice little percentage cut for the work.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it depends on the network, right?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I mean I can't pretend I'm I know what networks do anymore because I've not done it for nearly a decade.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: But um my understanding is that certain networks provide different levels of service depending on what you're looking for.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you decided to go directly authorised, so you stepped away from that kind of security blanket, if you like, and moved into directly authorised.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why why was that?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: What was your reason for doing it?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: So so we'd we'd worked out that we'd reached uh uh critical mass in terms of clients, so we'd got to a point where uh we knew we had enough income coming in that validate the costs associated with making that move.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that was that was number one.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um number two was uh probably the one that I'm sort of sort of uh that that attracted me the most, which was autonomy.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: So autonomy for me was being able to sort of carve my own path, make my own decisions in all areas, um uh was really important.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: And also number three was the opportunity to delegate virtually all of the tasks involved in direct authorisation to somebody else.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did you do?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Did you employ somebody in in terms of the city?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, we've been lucky enough to have a really good team at Savello who um who appreciate that I'm not good at much, Sam, but the bits I'm good at I should probably focus on.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh so for me it was a m a matter of both you know employing people in, external employment uh compliance consultants to support us through the journey, um, and having a team to to to get the documentation done both at the start and on an ongoing basis to do that.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, it wasn't if it was completely down to me and we didn't have a team support, we'd still be with the network.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: You still go to the network, yeah, exactly.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got some great guys and girls to lean on then within the business.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think I think in terms of our progression, uh the the biggest thing, and I you know, it's been a learning journey for me in terms of this, particularly over the last six or seven years, like being really committed to what you're good at you're good at during your day, and just trying to get rid of every other job to people who are going to be better at that particular job has been the biggest thing for me.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we've only got a small team, there's only a small team of six of us within Savelo.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're not looking to expand or grow any any larger than that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if we do, it will be in the support team as opposed to on the advisory side.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but effectively, just what am I good at?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: What do I need to delegate, and who's going to be best at that job is something that we think about every day.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, is there a just very interesting then?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So directly authorised, you've mentioned there that there's six of you within the business and that you wouldn't exp that you wouldn't expand the business really any further.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is that because, you know, from a motivation perspective, the size of a business isn't important to you?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Have you hit a sort of level of income that you're happy with?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: What what's your reasons around running a business under 10 staff?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's lots of them in financial planning.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, uh there's a few actually.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's a few.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, I think I think in terms of our growth, so we've grown recurring income this year, Sam, by about 30%.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we're still on a growth uh trajectory.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when we decide what success looks like, it isn't overall um overall turnover, it's all about that value of the business in terms of recurring income.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's our sole financial focus.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And again, as a values run business, it's not all about the money, it's about the the running a business that we can be really proud of.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's more important to me.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of in terms of staying at a relatively small size, um, I got really funny.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: I got really offended a few years ago um when somebody said to me, um, funny enough, it was one of our introducers who said, Chris, you've got an amazing lifestyle business.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, How dare you?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: We're a chartered firm, we're this, but like, hold on, you know, actually, it you know, it gives me an income that's really, really sort of generous.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it allows me to have fun everyday at work because I get to help the clients that I want.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it allows me to have autonomy and make my own decisions and choose what I want to do.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that income's only going one way at the minute, you know, that that's good.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it does allow me to live a life that allows me to spend time with my kids.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this year, my oldest daughter's 18, so she's up in um Strathclyde uh at uni.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I took July off and went traveling with my daughter.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's fantastic.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: If I was running a hundred-man business, yeah, would I feel guilty about doing that?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, maybe, maybe not, but but you know, that that that balance between life and money is one we talk to our clients about all the time, and one that I think we probably put money above life quite a lot.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we do.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think we do.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we have this uh perception in our in our minds that when we earn that amount of money, then we'll be happy.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: When we have that house of that size, that car or whatever, that lifestyle that we think we should deserve, that then we'll be happy.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: When we actually have this ability to be happy right now, we can choose to be happy if we wanted to be happy.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: If we just put the brakes on a little bit and sort of accepted what we had and were grateful for what we had.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, nothing wrong with having aspirations and dreams and um and wanting to improve and innovate.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these are all fantastic values and intrinsic values that I share.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I can't I can't live in that idea anymore, especially as a business owner, because I don't know about you, but I hit a point where I hit a brick wall.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was down, I was depressed, I was stressed, I was anxious, I was worried all the time.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and I and I was always looking over to my left and looking at my right, thinking who's someone's got something better than me.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it was until I hit me though, like like for me, like like when I look up look a look at what's important, it's the memories I build with my kids.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: So so I I and again with with other people, with my wife and and and and and my friends, and all of that's really important.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: But literally taking a month off, and just like I mean, we ended up in Copenhagen when the Tour de France was on, and then in in Munich when Munich Pride was on, and just got involved in two massive parties.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like you just and that was by accident, and you turn around and go, We'll talk about that in 10 years' time.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, that to me is I mean, there's a really good book that I'd recommend that you know if you've got aspiring financial planners and financial advisors, I think all of them should read this.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's called Happy Money by uh Elizabeth Dunn, and it Talks about that relationship between happiness and money and how um experiences trump um uh staff every single time.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um that that's one that I give to my clients all the time, and one that I talk about all the time.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's brilliant.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We'll look that up and make sure to share that on the social post.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um Chris, you um you run your own podcast as well.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: So just tell us a little bit about that.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so starting off uh about five years ago.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, when I when I look back, Sam, it started off way before that, you know.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, where when you look at where your values come from, it's always interesting to look look at look at uh look at where you come from.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: So so because I'm an 80s kid, uh and one from a particularly working class background, um, you look back and you go, well, what values did you get from your your parents and your mum and dad and stuff like that?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: And kindness has always been something that my mum, who I lost in 2019, unfortunately, uh, really uh really advocates for.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: And um I remember I remember when I was about, when I was about seven or eight, um, I was sitting in a really drafty like sort of school hall uh at assembly, and um the teacher stood up and went, um the teacher stood up and went, right, we've got a gift for what we who we think is the kindest child.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, all right, who's this gonna be?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: And like it clearly weren't Trevor, because Trevor was the troublemaker who was like at the time throwing his pencil case over up the wall making too much noise, and they called out my name, and I thought, we've got a gift for you, right?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like, okay, wandered up to the front um and uh picked up picked up this gift, and I thought, well, is it is it gonna be a Commodore 64 or like an arcade machine?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, it was a blue plate, right?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was like this really like so.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: That meant that um uh for the next six months I got beat up quite a lot.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um but also my mum, when I when I went home with that plate, and I was a bit embarrassed about it, my mum was really proud, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then fast forward to 2019, uh, and again, as I said, my mum passed away in 2019.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she said to me, Um, uh, you know what, I'm really proud of what you've done with the business and the kids and stuff like that.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got a surprise for you.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and it's an emotional time because we found out she had terminal cancer.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she went, um, I've got something you haven't seen for a long time.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: And out of a cupboard, she brought out this blue plate, and I hadn't seen it for decades.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I now, Sam, I'm in floods of tears, aren't I?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's like she's kept it.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: So so I think I think when I look back at where kindness comes from in my life, it probably comes from my mum, a value that she installed as important all those years back.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: But about five years ago, I was looking at the world thinking all I hear is bad news.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Surely there's people doing amazing stuff in the world, um, and I'd like to learn from them.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what's the easiest way of um of just picking people's brains that you admire?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as you know, it's to have a podcast, isn't it?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, it is, yeah, definitely.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Effectively, all you need to do then is go, you're interested.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think I could learn a bit from you.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, had I engaged something that allows me to have that conversation.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so so there was that.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other element was uh Charlotte was 14 when we launched the podcast, and um uh I was worried about continuing to develop a relationship with a teenage daughter because I was worried she'd never talk to me again.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: So having this project, the kindness project that we worked on together, allowed us to just like get together and have a chat and and and invite these guests on.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's weird because you know if if it never gained traction, I wouldn't worry because it still allowed me to interview loads of amazing people and build something unique with Charlotte.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it has become popular so much so that as I said to you earlier, we get about 50,000 downloads a month.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing um of people.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a real appetite for this stuff, which we expect at the start.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we've just um uh come up to publishing the book, which is all the stories of what I've learnt from amazing people over the years of hosting the podcast.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Which is exactly how I heard about you because Keith Boys, who's on my podcast, shared your book because he wrote a um a testimonial for the book.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: He did, uh he did.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: And Keith, Keith, Keith's amazing because he introduced um introduced uh guests to the podcast the other day.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when when people hear about this stuff, they go, right, this is an interesting fellow, Chris should speak to, and that happens.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but also Keith um showed me a really real example of kindness when he um, you know, I was mentioning earlier, 2016 to 2019, I used to do these advisor round tables.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Keith emailed me and said, Look, you've run your phone for a little while, can I come down and have a chat?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, look, actually, on the day that you're down, um uh we've got an advisor round table, why don't you come to that?
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh after he attended and hopefully got some value out of it, he sent me this handwritten cut card, which actually I felt was a really kind gesture and something I appreciated.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: So he ended up in the book.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: That story ended up in the book.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where that relationship developed.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's really inspiring.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a six-year-old daughter, and if I'm still podcasting when she's a bit older, I think right now it'd probably make quite an interesting podcast, actually.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Me and Isabella talking.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, it's so funny.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I would I think that's a fantastic way also to build that deeper relationship with your daughter.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I'm really looking forward to doing something like that.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right, Sam, let me let me share something with you that I never never considered, but was really, really interesting to me.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, one of the one of the ladies that we interviewed runs a uh a charity locally to to where we are in Essex, and her charity is all about um people in their 80s and 90s recording their stories, right?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: So just so it doesn't get lost to time.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: What was the experience of being brought up in the 40s or 50s or whatever it may be and making sure that we we don't lose track of that?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: And Chris, who's a who's a lady, said to me, Um, you do realise you've sort of built a bit of a uh an audio treasure trove by by recording the podcast.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, What do you mean?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: She went, Well, you and Charlotte can look back in 20 years' time and go, do you remember when we did that?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so I'd I would, I mean, clearly not for work, or or maybe for work, but I'd I'd encourage um just yeah, having conversations.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought of it that way because everything that you are recording, and also you know, perhaps when you're no longer for this world, she might well go over those episodes and remember that amazing.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's really that's actually making me feel quite emotional.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's really sweet.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's absolutely spot on.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't never thought about it that way.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: I neither do I, and it was only somebody mentioned it to me and going, you do realize that that is a um that's that's a sort of moment in the history, a moment in time in your family's legacy.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting, isn't it?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we record videos um in um Financial Planner Life, and I've just had the Financial Planner Life videography services.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: And Tristan, who's my videographer, has just hooked up with a guy in Western Supermare who creates like a book of your life, and he they he writes a book of your life, but also does video recordings, and that's what Tristan Tristan does.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: So before that, to that person, say at the end of their life, they they do their review of their life and then they give it to their families with a video, and they keep it as like a treasure, like a like a tree like a treasure chave, you know, and a memory and a memory keeps it.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I thought that was really sweet when he explained that to me.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was lovely to do.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, I think I'm with you, you know, kindness for me is one is a fantastic value to have.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that I think sometimes you have to work at because we're so intrinsically selfish.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think you have to work at being kind.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: But when you do work at being kind, the rewards are just incredible.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, where I've actively gone out to be kind and I've had to work at it, the things that come back to me, um, just even if it's just a feeling of like reprogramming my brain to recognize that doing good makes you feel good, not buying something makes you feel good, for example.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: So here's my philosophy on that, Sam.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I I appreciate the fact that it's only my perspective on the world.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I agree with the point that we are intrinsically selfish.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: The good news is kindness is selfish, yeah.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um because kindness makes you feel better.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: So effectively, I mean we talk about on the podcast quite a lot.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like doing good for others triggers all of those amazing chemicals in your body that make you feel amazing as well.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, my perspective on it is I know kindness is selfish because it makes me feel better.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I I can you know selfish as a negative term is actually flipped to its head for me because actually I can frame it in a way that I can help other people, yeah, be selfish because I know it helps me, yeah, and and therefore I can be both kind and selfish at the same time.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Even the being kind to yourself, I think some of the biggest struggles that we do have is being kind to ourselves.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we always think kindness to others, but and and we try that.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: And some people are overly too kind, people pleasing other people.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when I, you know, when I went through a situation and a guy made me aware that I wasn't being kind to myself.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when I stopped and I was being mindful of how I was talking to myself internally and just externally, and what I thought of myself, my self-esteem, there I realized, wow, I genuinely am not being kind to myself.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that was some that was a real revelation for me was to be kind to myself, and that changed me massively.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's really interesting.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when when we when we were sort of working out the sort of format of the book and what we'd share, um and the the idea of the the idea of the book was to effectively um share the expertise of experts that we'd spoken to for each chapter.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: So each chapter's got either an expert, a couple of experts that we've spoken to are really, really strong in this particular area.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the I wanted to make sure that the first chapter of the book was being kind to yourself because there's the analogy of um, you know, if you're on a plane and it's going down, you put your own oxygen mask on first so you can help others.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, somebody said to me, I've never heard it before, but somebody said to me, You can't pour water out of an empty jug.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: So making sure that you're looking after yourself.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we share loads of tips from an amazing uh positive psychologist um uh called Ruth Hughes, who came on the podcast um to just share tips of um what you can do to make sure that you're in a position where you're looking after yourself.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: And some of them are super simple, aren't they?
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, gratitude is super important in my life.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Gratitude is one of the most powerful things.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: I the day I started actually practicing gratitude on a daily and hourly, like literally hourly basis, was the thing that changed my life.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely believe that.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Genuinely believe it.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: Exercise, you know, making sure you're you develop that the habit of exercise, um, you know, uh focusing on what you can control, you know, that old stoic philosophy, all of those things of saying, right, this is what I'm gonna do to be kind to myself, so that I've then got more energy to do to do good for the wealth, you know, and and and getting the balance right between commercial decisions and decisions of kindness.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes in our businesses, you know, we've got to charge fairly for what uh what we do and not be embarrassed about that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, um, so so that that doesn't mean being kind doesn't mean giving all of your time away.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: It means getting the balance right.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: One final question for you, yeah.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this was about your transparency around fees, because you were in, you know, one of your values again.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've gone through your values today, and I love that.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: But one of your values is innovation, and you said that you're gonna you're going, you're thinking, or you're going to attempt to put or you're going to put your fees on your website and be fully transparent.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: So um I I I I read a really amazing book uh the other day called They Are You Answers Up.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if you've heard heard about it, but it's all about um it's all about just what do we look for um when it comes to any service or products online.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um and he made the point that yes, we're scared about our competitors knowing they sort of know already, we're scared about putting people off.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there there are there are legitimate concerns about brightness transparency.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um uh I I was talking to this with uh with with my team and uh one of my team who's also my brother, because we are a big family business, my wife works in the business, so does my brother.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, to be honest, Russ, if I uh to be honest, Chris, if I visit a website um and I can't find the cost of it, I'll just leave.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, you couldn't tell me earlier, Russ.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: That was like that's that that's the massive insight.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think part of it is just what's the harm in just turning around and going, look, we're expensive if you compare it to the cheapest out there, but we feel that we deliver good value, and just so you're aware of what we might cost, here is it, and you can make an independent choice.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: If we're not right, we're not right.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: If we are, we are, and that's fine.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: The bit that's interesting, Sam, is positioning it so we also evidence value.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I've been reliant on the conversation to do that, whereas if you put it on the website, you you don't so much, and that's where video comes into play and and you know framing it in the right way comes into play.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: That that's uh that's a job, it will take a few weeks for us to get that right, I think.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I had someone come in because I was um I was doing something similar in my recruitment company where it's having like um bronze, silver, and gold packages, and I would put the price on there, and each one would have a level of services.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what you can do with that pricing structure is you can move things off one off of gold over to silver, move some of the silver over to bronze.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you can move things around, which means that you can then move the price around.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is that interactive on the desire, or is that someone would see it and then they would book a consultation with me?
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I I can bring up, or if I'm on a meeting with them, I can bring up the pricing and say, look, you don't need all that's on gold.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: So gold, gold's five grand, but you don't need all of it.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'll do is I'll remove some of that because actually what is over there, I'll I'll take that off, I'll take that off, but what that'll do is drop the price down for you.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're then saying is between two and five thousand pounds, you're gonna be making a fee within that level.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna you're giving choice.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's the big thing about the Margaret Sheridan book, because one of the things, particularly in professional sectors, is it will depend, won't it?
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it will it will it, you know, a for us a£3,000 client might sort of need less than a£5,000 client.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: So all he suggests in the book, and I'd certainly recommend your um your viewers and listeners read it, is just to arrange.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, it could be between this and this.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: We'll do the consultation, but at least then people are expecting that conversation, and it's not, you know, it's not hidden.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it just helps develop that relationship of trust if you can be as transparent as you can about as many aspects of your uh of your business as you as you can.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, I love it, Chris.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, I've got to stop the podcast here, but I could talk to you all day.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I think I'm coming on your podcast soon.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think you are, you are.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to I'm gonna pick your brains about uh kindness in business, uh, how how that manifests itself in your in your organization, uh, and the B Corp experience.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because one of the things that I want to do in my sort of uh business ownership journey is is move into B Corps at some point.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not one we've done yet, but it's one we may do.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: So uh uh yeah, you're you're my expert on that.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to coming on the podcast and and sharing my uh my knowledge.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's different when you're the other way around, isn't it?
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you're the interviewer and then you become the interviewee.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's funny because I've got so comfortable asking questions.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh doing it the other way around, it'd be interesting.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: But like you had today, Sam.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for this.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: It'll I promise you, it'll be a really fun experience.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, been an absolute pleasure talking to you today.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing so deeply around your journey and the kindness project that people can go out and listen to that podcast.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Over 50,000 downloads.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're jealous of my business side.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm jealous of your 50,000 downloads.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredibly impressive.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the work you're doing there, I just think it's fantastic.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you put goodness out into the world, goodness comes back.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: We need to be sharing more good, less of the negative scaremongering tactics that we see on the BBC website and the newspapers all of every single day at the moment.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody's miserable.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need more crap, do we?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let's talk about the good things that are happening because there's plenty of good things that happen.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: And as soon as you open your eyes and start start looking out for it, it's there.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, absolute pleasure.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.