Latest / Yaron Brook Show / The Nakba & Israel's War of independence, May 1948 | Yaron & Nikos Dialogues

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The Nakba & Israel's War of independence, May 1948 | Yaron & Nikos Dialogues · Yaron Brook Show

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  Speaker 1: Part. You can't start the show without the music, my
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  Speaker 1: little can you hear the music?
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  Speaker 2: Individuals hear the guy?
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  Speaker 1: Your show? Allright, everybody, welcome to your one book show
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: on this What is it?
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  Speaker 3: It's May seventeen, May seventeenth. It is a Sunday, and
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  Speaker 3: we hear for the regular now weekly.
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  Speaker 1: You're on a NYCOS show.
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  Speaker 3: Were on any cad in dialogue and so welcome Nicos.
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  Speaker 1: It's good to have you. Good to have you on
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  Speaker 1: the show.
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  Speaker 3: Before we get started, I want to we've got to
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  Speaker 3: change for next week that we just want to make
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  Speaker 3: sure everybody gets So I'm going to say at the
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: beginning of the show, so and we'll repeat it later,
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: but next week's show will be on Saturday at the
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  Speaker 3: same time. So it'll be Saturday a three pm East
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  Speaker 3: Coast time. And what's the topic going to be?
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  Speaker 2: The monosphere? The Red peel which decided.
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  Speaker 3: That, yes, it's going to be the manisphere, a topic
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  Speaker 3: I know nothing about, so as compartit today, I know
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  Speaker 3: something about the ministry I know nothing about, so that
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  Speaker 3: that'll be fun. And we'll see if because I even
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  Speaker 3: agree on the manisphere, you might not. Somebody is eager
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  Speaker 3: for us to disagree like Alex. The first question we
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  Speaker 3: got is from Alex, who put in seventy five shekill
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  Speaker 3: and he says, what a great show. AI discussion is
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  Speaker 3: a lot of boring due to the constant agreement. It
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  Speaker 3: would be great to hear you debate some topics, even
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: if it boils down to pat Riley's style.
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  Speaker 2: So I have something to say.
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  Speaker 4: Do you remember the line by Dugny when James Stagger
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  Speaker 4: tells her go and debate whether are the metal is
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  Speaker 4: a product of greed and she says something sadly, what
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  Speaker 4: makes you think that this is even up to debate?
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  Speaker 4: This is where either pat Riley is the goat of style.
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  Speaker 4: He is the goat of style. That can be no
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  Speaker 4: debate on that.
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  Speaker 1: So maybe there could be no debate.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, style, if if your standard is a typical
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  Speaker 3: mafio so uh used cost sales dealer, somebody who is
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  Speaker 3: trying to trying is trying to get one over on you.
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  Speaker 1: Pat Le looks like the.
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  Speaker 3: Guy who's going to sell you that beat up all
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  Speaker 3: Toyota as a as a brand new FERRAI.
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  Speaker 4: Now we see the line from Founder Heads exactly.
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  Speaker 3: So anyway, this is a major disagreement between me and
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  Speaker 3: any course that I think is going to play out
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  Speaker 3: over many episodes.
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  Speaker 1: So this is it's it's not dead yet. Uh.
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  Speaker 3: And anyway we were to be continued, we're not gonna
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  Speaker 3: We're not gonna hash it out right now.
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  Speaker 1: But uh.
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  Speaker 3: And and there's a whole Celtics is debate as well.
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  Speaker 3: So but but that that for another time. Let's see
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  Speaker 3: So today, that's right, So next time it's an atmosphere,
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  Speaker 3: it's going to be a saturdayin is May twenty third
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  Speaker 3: at three pmis coast time, and so join us for that.
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  Speaker 3: And again a little bit of an unusual topic for me.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm you know, it's going to be it's gonna
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  Speaker 3: be a lot of fun. Today we're going to talk
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  Speaker 3: about something I've talked about many times, at least pieces
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  Speaker 3: of I think Nikos has touched on pieces of it.
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  Speaker 1: But today we're really going to try to.
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  Speaker 3: Give you a comprehensive look, or at least the comprehence
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  Speaker 3: of what we can do in one show. This is
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  Speaker 3: a big topic and that is really the nineteen forty
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  Speaker 3: eight is really wol of independence, the Declaration of Independence,
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  Speaker 3: which which you could what is it three days ago or.
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  Speaker 2: The clarson is on the four.
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  Speaker 1: Fourteenth or three days ago, yes, yes, and then the
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  Speaker 1: yeah is the invasion of the of the of the
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  Speaker 1: ever bombis into Israel. So the war starts on the
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  Speaker 1: fifteenth of war really started in forty seven to some extent,
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  Speaker 1: but at least the civil wars.
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  Speaker 3: So we're going to cover all of this. The challenge
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  Speaker 3: was covering this is if we just we're going to
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  Speaker 3: cover the war, it would be okay, that would be okay,
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  Speaker 3: we could do that in a show. But you can't
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  Speaker 3: do that right because you have to set up context,
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  Speaker 3: and there's massive context, and the context goes back, you know,
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  Speaker 3: really fifty sixty seventy years before the declaration of independence.
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  Speaker 3: You have to go back to the late nineteenth century
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  Speaker 3: and then into the twentieth century.
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  Speaker 1: So we're going to cover all that. We'll see how
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  Speaker 1: much you know, we'll see how much.
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  Speaker 3: Of that we we actually we actually get to cover.
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  Speaker 1: The SUPERCHATCHO remind you is open to remind you this.
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  Speaker 1: Nikos and I split this of a chat. So we
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  Speaker 1: have ambitious goals for these shows, so please take that
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  Speaker 1: into account. Stickers available, and thank you Robert already for
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  Speaker 1: getting yourself with the sticker, and of course questions are
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  Speaker 1: particular particularly valued, particularly if they can help guide the
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  Speaker 1: show or things you're interested in, or things you don't
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  Speaker 1: understand or disagree you, or ask about stuff you might
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  Speaker 1: have heard about.
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  Speaker 3: What happened, what is the Knakaba? Why did it happen?
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  Speaker 3: The poor Palestinians? What happened to them? You know, ask
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  Speaker 3: questions about things that interest you with regard to this topic,
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  Speaker 3: and yeah, that that is good, so so so, so
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  Speaker 3: maybe where do you want to start, because I mean,
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  Speaker 3: how far back you want to go?
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  Speaker 4: I would say, let's start very quickly. End of eighty
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  Speaker 4: eight is let's say eighty eighty one. This has been,
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  Speaker 4: this is before Hertz, this is before let's say, Desire
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  Speaker 4: this movement.
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  Speaker 2: What is the situation in the area.
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  Speaker 4: You still have some Jews in the area, most of
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  Speaker 4: them in Jerusalem, something around let's say twenty five thousand,
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  Speaker 4: So it is a negligible present.
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  Speaker 1: We have to mind everybody. This is under the Ottoman Empire, right.
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  Speaker 2: So this is the Ottoman Empire.
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  Speaker 3: There's no Arab state here, There's no uh, there's never
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  Speaker 3: has been there never has been. So you know, they
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  Speaker 3: this is a land that used to be occupied by
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  Speaker 3: the Romans, and then the Egyptians, and then you know
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  Speaker 3: various verse the Arabs, of course, during the Arab conquests conquered,
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  Speaker 3: it was an Arab empire. There were no there were
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  Speaker 3: no states in the Arab Empire. And then of course
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  Speaker 3: the the Ottomans, who are Tooks who came from Central Asia,
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  Speaker 3: conquers big chunks of the Middle East, and the Ottoman
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  Speaker 3: Empire is the rule in the late nineteenth century as
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  Speaker 3: because a small Jewish population mainly in Jerusalem, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: sprinkle a round, spots, sprinkle around a few other places
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  Speaker 3: around the thing, and the beginnings of an in migration
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  Speaker 3: of Jews, primarily primarily from Russia, but in Eastern Europe
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  Speaker 3: they're escaping the programs.
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  Speaker 1: But one thing important to note.
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  Speaker 3: In the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties, the Russian and Eastern
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  Speaker 3: European Jews have somewhere else to go. They can all
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  Speaker 3: and they do emigrate to the United States. The United
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  Speaker 3: States is wide open, open borders. They can floor and
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  Speaker 3: we'll get to I think that plays an important role
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  Speaker 3: starting in the nineteen twenties when that border gets closed
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  Speaker 3: down and then they don't have anywhere to go. But
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  Speaker 3: in this time most of them are going all over
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  Speaker 3: the place, right all over South Africa's my ancestors went
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  Speaker 3: to South Africa.
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  Speaker 1: Others went to the US.
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  Speaker 3: So there's a small trickle in of migration coming in
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  Speaker 3: during this period from Europe.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, and around the other important data, I would say
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  Speaker 4: it is nineteen seventeen because then we have some chains
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  Speaker 4: of hands. So that area is theater of conflict of
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  Speaker 4: World War One. So the British prevail over the Ottomans.
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  Speaker 4: So a process starts in nineteen seventeen. This process reaches
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  Speaker 4: a peak, let's say a nineteen twenty where now this area,
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  Speaker 4: the area what we call Palestine, and back then it
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  Speaker 4: was called Palestine, now is in the hands of the British.
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  Speaker 4: Now it is part of the British Empire. By that
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  Speaker 4: point there are more than seventy thousand Jews. So we
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  Speaker 4: started with some like twenty five thousand before let's say
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  Speaker 4: the Zionist movement before Herzel. Now with a pogram, with
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  Speaker 4: all this, we are around more than seventy five thousand,
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  Speaker 4: seventy five thousand Jews. So now this is an area
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  Speaker 4: occupied by the bridge.
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  Speaker 2: And I want to.
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  Speaker 4: Put one thing on the table here here on that
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  Speaker 4: the Jews invest, although they are the minority in terms
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  Speaker 4: of numbers, they invest and contribute to the development of
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  Speaker 4: the area, not just more than the Arabs, that is
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  Speaker 4: most people might alreadynoid. They actually invest even more than
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  Speaker 4: the British Empire.
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  Speaker 2: Invests in the area.
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  Speaker 4: So even if you're an Arab at that point, for
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  Speaker 4: many Arabs, you're better off in Palestine working for the
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  Speaker 4: Jews rather than being let's say Egypt. And one other
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  Speaker 4: thing very important. Where do Jews find the land? And
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  Speaker 4: the answer is they buide from the Arabs. Some of
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  Speaker 4: these Arabs do not live there, and some of these
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  Speaker 4: Arabs have as laborers Arabs who squat on the land.
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  Speaker 4: And what happens is when that house, for example, change ownership.
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  Speaker 4: If people live there on a rent, they might have
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  Speaker 4: to live And indeed many Arabs quote lose their land,
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  Speaker 4: but it was not really their land.
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  Speaker 2: It was the land they used to work on.
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  Speaker 4: But now this land is under the new owners, so
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  Speaker 4: they have to work someone else, or maybe they would
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  Speaker 4: still work there. So there were some Jews who prepared
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  Speaker 4: who preferred to have only Jews working for them. Others
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  Speaker 4: who had Jews and Arabs. So let's put this on
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  Speaker 4: the table that already from that, either the Jews are
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  Speaker 4: very instrumental in the development of the area. Also we
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  Speaker 4: have the establishment of Tel Aviv and so on and
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  Speaker 4: so forth.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and a lot of this is being funded by
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  Speaker 1: wealthy Jews overseas, so the watch Childs and other you know,
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  Speaker 1: wealthy Jews and France and England and Central Europe investing
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  Speaker 1: money in Israel. The primarily philanthropically they viewed at least
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  Speaker 1: I think philanthropically primarily. This is the way they help
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  Speaker 1: their fellow countrymen, fellow religionists who are being persecuted in
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  Speaker 1: Eastern Europe. They helped them get to to what's called.
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  Speaker 3: Palestine, and they and they they help them set up businesses.
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  Speaker 3: It's also a period in which there is the beginning
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  Speaker 3: of UH and this is you don't see this much
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  Speaker 3: in the history books because because the history books are
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  Speaker 3: advised against but there's a there's quite a bit of
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  Speaker 3: industrialization going on. So you get you get water works,
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  Speaker 3: you get electrical generating plants. These are not primarily built
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  Speaker 3: by the British, even though the British are the colonial power.
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  Speaker 3: These are built by entrepreneurs, by by Jewish entrepreneurs. And
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  Speaker 3: the consequence of this is that the the migration flows
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  Speaker 3: are interesting. That is, you get a lot of people
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  Speaker 3: coming into Israel into this territory that the Jews are
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  Speaker 3: making pretty uh successful economically, from Syria, from Lebanon, from Jordan,
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  Speaker 3: maybe even from Egypt, and and they're finding you know,
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  Speaker 3: they're finding.
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  Speaker 1: Jobs, they're finding jobs there. So the population, the Arab
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  Speaker 1: population in Palestine goes during this period far beyond both weeks.
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  Speaker 4: And even people who don't permanently stay there, they travel
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  Speaker 4: as seasonal workers because there are many seasonal, seasonal opportunities
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  Speaker 4: for work there. Since we mentioned nineteen seventeen, why did
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  Speaker 4: we start from there? Also, there's another important moment, the
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  Speaker 4: Balfour Declaration.
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  Speaker 2: What is that? Well, the British are.
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  Speaker 4: Promising different things, of course to different people, but for
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  Speaker 4: the first time there's no there's a statement by the
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  Speaker 4: British Empire mentioning that Palestine can become a national home
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  Speaker 4: for the Jewish people. A national home. Now, what does
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  Speaker 4: national home mean? Does it mean a state? Does it
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  Speaker 4: mean a place where you're not going to get killed?
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  Speaker 4: For the Zionist movement, they get it as a statement
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  Speaker 4: that we are doing well here. We are at some
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  Speaker 4: point here we're going to have something something like a state.
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  Speaker 4: Soals nineteen seventeen important moment.
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  Speaker 2: What do you think.
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  Speaker 3: Motivated by for was their motivation of the British, I
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  Speaker 3: mean the British War.
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  Speaker 1: This was part of their empire.
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  Speaker 3: They already by this point are thinking they're going to
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  Speaker 3: unwind the empire. That is, the empire is already in decline,
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  Speaker 3: and they're trying to figure out, Okay, what happens to
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  Speaker 3: all these lands they're divving up the rest of the
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: Middle East right there. I mean Iraq is a creation
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  Speaker 3: of the post World War One era Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia,
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  Speaker 3: and none of these countries ever existed.
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  Speaker 1: There's no right.
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  Speaker 3: These are all creations of the British, British and French,
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  Speaker 3: you know, as they leave the Middle East as they
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  Speaker 3: winding down empire. But what motivated Buffo and the British
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  Speaker 3: to consider the Jews for this area in Palestine.
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  Speaker 4: I don't have a good answer to that, but my
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  Speaker 4: understanding is that it would be a good post colonial
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  Speaker 4: not to the way we used the outpost somewhere and
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  Speaker 4: Nala you could trust. That's my understanding, but I haven't
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  Speaker 4: got a better insight. I'm not an expert on this.
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  Speaker 4: What's your answer.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think Jews lobbied for it. I think
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  Speaker 1: that the.
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  Speaker 3: That there was a real realization in Britain that there
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  Speaker 3: was a Jewish problem that Hurtzel identified in Europe, that
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  Speaker 3: the Jews were being persecuted and they were trying to
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  Speaker 3: get out. There was an attempt to find a solution
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  Speaker 3: that did not involve, in a sense, inviting them all
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  Speaker 3: into Britain, and it wasn't.
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  Speaker 1: Clear where they could go.
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  Speaker 3: There was a lot of talk during that period about
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: setting up some kind of Jewish homeland, some kind of
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  Speaker 3: autonomous region in different places around the world, and you know,
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  Speaker 3: Hurtzel famously was offered Designist Convention, was offered Uganda as
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: a as a place that was even talkers sitting in
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: something up in Argentina. There were a lot of talk,
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  Speaker 3: and I think that this seemed reasonable to the British.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 3: The other thing to note is there was an Avid
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  Speaker 3: population in Palestine in nineteen seventeen.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if you have the numbers, but it
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  Speaker 1: wasn't huge.
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  Speaker 3: The land was relatively you know, it wasn't heavily populated.
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  Speaker 1: There weren't a lot of people. Most of it wasn't.
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  Speaker 3: A lot of it was unusable, like half of Israel
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  Speaker 3: is desert. The other half in nineteen seventeen, A lot
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  Speaker 3: of it was swamp. There were a lot of swamps
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  Speaker 3: in the north, just below the Golden Heights. Along the coast,
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  Speaker 3: there were a lot of swamps. It wasn't particularly you know,
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  Speaker 3: desirable land that people were particular. I think the British
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: were worried about people fighting over I think later they
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: discovered that they were going to but so they figured
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: why not, right, I mean, as I think it was
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: a way to solve a problem. I think the post
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: kind of what happens after we leave problem was in
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: their minds as well. But also so it's a solution
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: to a problem that they were dealing with. Remember, biting
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: back then was the empire. It managed people's lives in
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: LARTs of different places around the world. So I think
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: it was a combination of all those things.
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  Speaker 4: And yes and no, as you hinted that, obviously the
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: Arabs are not happy with all these and already from
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  Speaker 4: the twenties you have a serious anti Jewish riots and
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: The most famous one is the nineteen twenty nine Hebron massacre.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: When I first read about it, I thought, oh, that's
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: basically an October seven before the October seven. So you
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: have Arab mobs murdering the Jews of Hebron, some of
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: them in very gruesome ways.
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  Speaker 1: But here's another my grand By the way, my grandfather
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: was there. So my grandfather was got injured during the
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Havee riots. He was there as he just emigrated, was
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a Shiva kid. He was fully religious and everything, and
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: he left after the Herban Rites and ultimately end up
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: in South Africa. But he was actually there.
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  Speaker 4: So one similarity and one difference from October seven. The
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: similarity is that it was based on fake news that
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: the Jews were about to destroy Alaksa, the temples there.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: But the difference is that in that case, your grandfather
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: was lucky. There were many Arabs who actually protected the Jews,
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: which is what did not happen in October seven. There
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: were many Arabs who actually put the Jews in their
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: homes and put the body on the line to defend
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: to defend their neighbors. So nineteen twenty nine we have
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: the first or that actually it's not organized, but it's massive.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: It's a riot which is massive enough to lead to this.
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  Speaker 3: It's just and wort mentioning because you welwysed that that
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  Speaker 3: there were some Arabs during October seventh who did save Jews,
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  Speaker 3: the Bedouin, the Bedouin community. The couple of few stories
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  Speaker 3: bedoms hiding people who fled the festival, you know, in the.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: In the in the desert, not Gossens, but Israeli Arabs,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and of course it's really Arabs.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, you're right, Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: The victims Israeli Arabs as well.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's an important clarification. Yeah, I'm sorry for
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: the RBS. That was that was unfair. I mean, goss
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  Speaker 4: yeap the other the other moment, we need to mention
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  Speaker 4: the other event. Now, I mean we skip some years,
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: but nothing super important happens in between. In nineteen thirty six, though,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: we have something very important. It is the Arab revolt. Now,
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: the Arab revolt is a revolt which has many aspects.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: One is that it starts with the one of the
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: longest general strikes in history. So for six months, the
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: Arabs declare declared that they will not work for the
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: bridge or for the Jews, and what are there? What
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: do they want to achieve? Number one, they want to
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: put an end to Jewish immigration. And second, which is
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: very interesting, they want to ban the sale of land
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: to the Jews. But this is mostly land that was
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: sold from Arabs to the Jews, so they cannot persuade
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: the Arabs don't sell land to the Jews.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: So now they want to the British.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: To pass a law that will say that you cannot
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: sell the land to the Jews. And of course here
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: we see for the first time, very prominent the role
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a guy called Amin
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: al Husemi, a guy who looks exactly like Ryan Goslig.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: So if you've seen him once, you remember his face.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: Later he becomes notorious because he's a collaborator with the
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: Nazis and so on and so forth. By the way,
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: he was picked by the British to be the Grand
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Movity of Jerusalem. So well done to the bridge, excellent choice.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: And notice also something else. We're in ninety thirty six
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: and at this point you have zero Arab refugees.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: We have nothing of the US all our Ab grievances, but.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Already in this year you have the first calls for
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: jihad to expel the Jews.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: So many elements, religious elements, all.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: Readially using a religious language to expel the Jews from
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: the Holy from the Holy Lane. So also there's a
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: strongly anti Semitic character to the riots throughout these three years.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: I think the Jews lose more people than they lost
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: in the Swiss crisis. And again it's a significant uprising
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: by the Arab saying the Jews are not welcome here.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: And at this point about the almost four hundred thousand Jews.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: So there had been a significant immigration during the nineteen thirties.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: And you know why, well, I mean it's it's simple
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: people escaping Europe. The Nazis are in power now, the
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: kind of the rating is on the wall, at least
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: for anybody who's who's got open eyes and can see it.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: And they can't escape to the United States. I mean
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: some can.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Albert Einstein can because he's famous and he's well known,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: and he's got a genius visa. And even then, you know,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: he has a hard time. The Americans almost refuse him
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: a visa. So there's very few places for Jews to
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: go to. So they start emigrating in much larger numbers
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: to Palestine. Remember these many of these Jews, you know,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: middle class, upper middle class Germans, you know, pretty wealthy,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: and they're coming to a land where there's almost nothing.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: You know, this is they're coming to walk with their
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: hands and agriculture and build something from scratch.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And so they're about.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Three hundred and three hundred and eighty five four hundred
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: thousand Jews. There's a just under probably nine hundred thousand
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: a million Arabs at this point in Israel.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of debate.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: About what we're gonna do, how we're gonna you know,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: the buffle decoration, How are we gonna, you know, leave
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: this the Jews when when we leave, Ultimately the British
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: are thinking, are we gonna you know, in originally Palestine
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: included Jordan as well, so we know so by this
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: point they've spun off Jordan. Jordan's separate. Jordan is no
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: longer here. So what are we gonna do with this
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: little piece of land? And this is the first time
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: where you start hearing about maybe we divide it up
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: between the two. The Jews get a little piece of
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: it and always get a big piece of it, and
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: and I think that's kind of what comes out of
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: these riots in nineteen thirty six.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: Yes, so the British they do something that great powers
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: still do today. Practically they reward terrorism. So they set
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: up a commission, the Pil Commission, to examine what is
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: happening there and what are the solutions. So the Pil
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: Commission gives for the first time a proposal for partition,
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: and the partition says twenty percent of the land for
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: the Jews, seventy percent for the Arabs, ten percent under
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: the British control.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Now this is a crazy.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Good offer if you are if you're an Arab, because
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: also these two parts are going to have economic integration,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: so you have the advantage of are still gonna benefit from,
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: you know, the entrepreneurship of the Jews. They get twenty
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: percent mostly swamps as you said, and the desert, and
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: we get seventy percent. And Jerusalem is under they have Sava.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: Don't remember how they call it, basically what today would
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: call an international city. How do the Arabs replied, who
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: say need the Grand move Tea declines it. By the way,
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: if this guy was alive today would say he's a
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: mosadage like every in every step he makes sure that
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: the Arabs don't get a victory. It's like this guy's unbelievable.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: And their count that offer is more violence. The counteroffen
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: of the Arabs, more violence and more riots, which reminded
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: me the second in Devada, they are giving us a state.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: We don't want the state. We want the Jews to go,
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: so we riot. And this is when the Brids are
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: arming some Jews to help them to oppose, to oppose
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: their Ayots.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And this is a time.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Remember people, Britain is already realizing there's a war ahead
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: in Europe and they want to find a way to
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: have us little to do with stuff over there. So
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: they find some trustworthy Jews, some thousands of them, and
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: they arm them. And yet they have to appease the
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: Arabs even more because as the war comes closer, they
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: realize we need to have all the Muslims in the
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: world bow our side. So we have the other important
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: diplomatic development. Actually, on a day like the seventeenth of May,
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: the White House, the British governors white Paper.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: The White Paper basically gives everything.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: To the Arabs. It says we're going to how to
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: Jewish immigration. Only seventy five thousands of them are going
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: to come in the next five years. And forget the partition.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: We're gonna figure something out. But no partition is off
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: the tape. Now you would expect this is a triumph
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: for the Arabs. What does the Grand move to do again?
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: He declines, It says, why seventy five thousand Jews coming
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: in zero just coming in so.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Again, time after time.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: So this was the first real opportunity for a Palestinian
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: state and the Arabs they're from in the most official way.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: The leader says, no, thank you.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: And the leader, by the way, already keeps an eye
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: on Nazi Germany. They have a slogan something like, no messire,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: no mistake. Allah in the Earth, hit on Earth.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Are Ali in the sky on Earth? Hitler.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: So they look at Hitler like, Okay, this guy's gonna come.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: It's gonna kick out the British. He hates the justice anyway.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: So we're gonna be We're gonna be fine. So this
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: is the this is the development. By the end of
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: the world. I want to post here here on and
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: ask you a question. I want to steal month the
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: Arab grievances from that from.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: This period, and I'm curious how you would reply to that.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Okay, So let's say you have a reasonable Arab not
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: a crazy one, and say, look, we were here first,
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: we are the clear majority. Still we are a majority
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: that keeps getting thinner due to mass migration. We never
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: asked for. We should have gone in a state in
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: ninety seventeen. Instead we got the British, and here we
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: find ourselves wave after wave of migration. We know that
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: the people who come have plans for our land, and
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: probably they don't want us here. They want the land
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: for themselves, for the Jewish state, And if they would
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: see the future, they would actually say, and we're.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Going to find ourselves in a few years.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: We are still the majority, and yet we're going to
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: get a minority of the land, and the colonialists will
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: give the Jews this land to at all for crimes
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: done by other people against the Jews, not by us.
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: So what do you expect us to do, if not
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: to riot, then take up the arms.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: No, I think that's right.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: I think that if you look at nationalist movements throughout
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: the world, I think everybody would have probably reacted in
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: a similar way.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: That is the idea that the land is quote ours.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: We still get that today, right, This is the whole
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: argument against immigration. It's our land. You can't come here.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: We get to the site who comes here.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: So there's no question that the Arabs have an argument
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: from a standard nationalist perspective that you know, we should
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: be able to decide who comes into this country. Why
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: isn't it a country. We should have our own country,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: and we don't want Jews, we want just people to
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: look like us. I mean every country in the world
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: today is talking about in that language. So that is
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: from from a nationalist, collectivistic kind of standard worldview. There
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: was really a worldview, by the way, created by the Europeans. Right,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: nationalism is a European ideological creation. They have a case,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: and this is why I think there is some legitimacy
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: to some sympathy towards them if they hadn't screwed up
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: every piece of it since then. But from the perspective
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: the rights they don't now.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: You know, so.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Jews emigrated there, they emigrated freely. They didn't steal anybody's land,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: they didn't exploit anybody, they didn't enslave anybody.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Their plan wasn't to steal land and exploit an enslave.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: They built, they created, They made their own way.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: The Arabs who moved.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: In emigrated in under kind of this open border that existed,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: were not local there. If you only look at the
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: local Arabs that existed there when the Ottoman Empire fell,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: that number is very low. You know, a much larger
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: population came in, just like the Jews came in. But
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: they came in because of the Jews. The Jews are
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: the ones who created.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: The economic activity, the industry, the electricity. They're raising a
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: standard of living. They're drying swamps.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: By the way, it has massive positive externalities because what
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: happens when you dry swamps you get rid of mosquitoes,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: which means you get rid of malaria. So this is
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: a land of malaria, and malary goes away because the
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: swamps are dry. So in modern medicine and hospitals, and
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: you know, civilization is brought by the Jews.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: They bring it from Europe, they being directly from Europe.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Uh and and you know the first symphony, orchestra, the Philharmonic,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: the opera house, all of that is built by these
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: Jews coming in. So an individualistic Arab would look at
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: this and say, WHOA. What I see here is massive
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: opportunities for self improvement. What I see here is people,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: you know, bringing in the things that I love about Europe.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: They're bringing right here to me. It's costing me nothing.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: They're creating jobs, the bringing technology, the being, the symphony
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: that you know, They're bringing things that any rational, individualistic
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: human being would value. I want to join these guys,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: you know, when they do the partition, I want to
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: be on this side of the border. I don't want
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: to be on the Arab side of the border. I
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: want to be in the Jewish side of the border.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: It's richer and cooler and better over there. So you know,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: that's the individualistic perspective that sadly is not common even
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: today and anyway, right, even in America, it's not as
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: common as it should be. Right, the individualistic perspective that says, okay,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: what's in a sense, what's in it for me? Oh,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: what's in it for me is wealth, freedom, individual rights protection,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: which is what a Jewish government was going to do,
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: right because it was modeled after European governments.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Culture, civilization. Yeah, I want the Jews, I want more Jews,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: not few Jews. And by the way, just to bring
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: it bring a context in today.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: This is my attitude towards everybody complaining about the settlements
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: in the West Bank.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Like when people.
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: Say, here's the Arabs were ready for peace, and if
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: they were civilized and if and if they really wanted
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: the state of their own in the West Bank, I
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: would know I would say, yes, do it on one
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: condition that they embrace the settlements.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, we want these Jews, let them stay here.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: You know, they've bring jobs, these are they're really productive
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: and creative. They're going to be a minority in us,
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: in our country. But you know, why would they why
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: would they want to dismantle the settlements and send them
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: back home?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Right? What? Why?
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: Why is the Palestinian state have to be an orabonly state.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Why can't it be a mixture, just like Israel is
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: a mixture between Arabs and Jews. Why can't a Palestinian
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: state be a mixture. So when they accept the settlements
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: as part of the Palestinian states and give them Palestinian citizenship,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: that's when I know they'd be ready for Palestinian state.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: So we can have a separate episode evaluating the Palestinian grievances.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Just one comment on what you said.
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: Tragically, even the founding fathers of Israel did not to
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: make the moral case for Israel. So Ben Gurion in
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: dialogues and discussions he basically tells people, I understand the Arabs.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: It makes sense. It's basically right versus right and between rights.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Power decides.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: As Mark said, obviously Ben Gurion and his others like him,
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: they were they were socialist, all type socialists.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: So this was the language. This was the language they understood.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: But that is true international politics.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Right, in international politics, it's almost always the case. You
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: can see it right now with Trump and chi might
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: makes right, that is it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: That's other is right.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: If I'm strong, I get a dictator terms and that's
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: what matters. Morality has nothing to do with it. A movel,
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: you know, even some of the comments and so of
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: the videos have done. A country has a mool right
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: to exist. People say they're outraged. It's like, no, the
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: only you know, if you can defend it, it's yours.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: We can't defend it. It's not yours. That's it's it's
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: it's the power of weapons. It's the power of force,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: which determines everything. So yes, it's not surprising they couldn't
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: defend they couldn't defend the morally, I mean, who can
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: defend them all? Any state today to exist anyway, the
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: kind of moral language just doesn't exist.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Moving on, because we're still not even in there now,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: we're entered in the nineteen forties.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: So now the World War.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: Is in is happening, and the big news at this
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: time is the struggle obviously against the Nazis. Both the
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: Jews and the British are preoccupied with that, and an
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: interesting contrast, you have a Hagana. Hagana, by the way,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: is the Jewish militia, which becomes something like a saddle
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: army of the upcoming Jewish it so you have Hagana
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: units fighting alongside the British army. Actually, Monseta Jan loses
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: his eye in such an operation somewhere I think towards
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: Lebanon fighting against visit France.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: And at the.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: Same time, the leader of the Palestinia, of the Arabs
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: of Palestine is bff with Himmler and he's trying to
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: recruit Muslims in Yugoslavia so that they can find with
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: the Vermach.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: And he lives in Germany. He lives, he's living in Germany,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: has a nice Nazi uniform.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: And actually it gets worse because after the war he's
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: said to go to Nuremberg. Obviously, and the Friends some
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: almost twenty something years before they put Homer Knee on
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: a plane to send him to Iran. They take the
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: moved in and said this guy, she shouldn't be near
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: be he should be there, sticking it to the British
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: imperialists because the Friends and the British they have conflict
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: of interest, let's say, in the area. So they release
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: the Mufti and they send him back to the Middle
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: East to continue his work, which is basically trying to
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: exterminate the Jews. This is what he was trying to
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: do while he was the best friends with Himler. He
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: actually also had met Hitler himself. But anyway, after the war,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: the main enemy now is though the British Empire. Remember
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: we are under the White Paper, which means there.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Is no partition plan active in the moment.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: So here you have, let's say, a conflict within the
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: mind of many leftist today is completely raised, which is
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: a proper anti colonial conflict by the Jews against the
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: British and this conflict is fought by Hagana, which is
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: let's say, the more quote cusial official side, but also
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: other bodies, other groups such as their good you might
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: have seen it as I z L or the group
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: the Lecky. Now these last two groups, we're going to
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: see them again because they're going they're going to do
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: stuff that that are very controversial and outright in some
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: cases outright criminal. So or let's let's actually already mention
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: it now you are, I'm sure people will mention it.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: We have the King.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: David bombing where the Hagana sorry no, the other two
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: groups is the the.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Is the Begien who became Prime Minister. Lada was one
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: of the leaders of the of the Gun during this period.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: And they blow up the hotel which was the headquarters
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: of the or an important central point of British administration,
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: killing also.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Many innocents and also many Jews.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Now they claim they given a warning, the warning was
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: not listened and the other notable cases. A couple of
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: years later, the bombing of the Semiramis Hotel, they thinking
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: that that's where the Arab headquarters are, but again many
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: people are killed. Turns out it was not Arab headquarters.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: So the Hagana had to apologize and then Spanish diplomat
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: is is killed. So, Yaron, what's your reply to the
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: people who say, oh, this is so this is the
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: stain at the founding of the Jewish state, that event
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: that initially it is a terrorist movement which then is
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: rewarded with the state. So why do you say we
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: should then reward the Arabs for the terrorists.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Why should we reward the Jewish terrorists?
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: So you know, what is is an anti colonial war.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: It's it's a war against the British.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: To try to kick them out of Palestine. And uh
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: and it's in what people die, it's it's a wolf liberation.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: This isn't a sense of the beginning of the Wolf liberation. Now,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: you know, there's the reason that three different organizations is
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: partially because during the nineteen forties wild World War two
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: is going the Haaghanah cooperates fully with the British.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: The don't want to cooperate with the British. They still
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: see the British as the enemy, so they are actually
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: fighting the British even during World War Two.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, and there's even some and somebody might
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: raise it in their questions. There's even some outreach by
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Lech towards the Nazis, thinking that if we can weaken
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: the British, that'll that you know, that's a good thing.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: They quickly realize what the Nazis are doing in Europe,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: the Jews, and they stop it right so they back
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: away from it.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: But they really view the British as the enemy. The
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: British are occupying what they consider now they land. They
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: they want to establish their own states in this land.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: The state they want to establish is going to be
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: even if you take the most extreme of these organizations though,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: all pro Western, pro freedom pro you know, they're all
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: basically liberal democracies, if you could call it that, something
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: on the spectrum of a free state. And you know,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: at least with regard to the King David Hotel, this
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: is the headquarters of the British Army, or one of
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: the headquarters. The British Army is active in the hotel.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: It's a legit target. The fact that there are civilians
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: there as well, doesn't It's just like, you know, what
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: do people always complain about human shields, the civilian human shields. Well,
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: you could argue the British army was using the hotel
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: as a civilian human shield to prevent an attack on it.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: So I think it's a legitimate target. I don't know
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: about the other hotel. I mean, look, does everything that
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: in the in particular do legit?
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: No, I mean they probably do.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Some things that you and I would say, you know
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: what they this is an.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Illegit even in a struggle for independence. They there is
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: there are acts.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: That are borderline terrorism in a sense of killing civilians
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: for the sake of intimidation. So this is happening. This
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: is a small minority among the among the total actions
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: that are taken during this period of time. They kidnap soldiers,
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: they you know, they they do things that are that
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: are definitely borderline in in these cases.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: But these are again small groups.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: This is not the essential movement towards freedom, and they're
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: fighting a pretty brutal enemy, which is the British. The
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: British are not nice in fighting back. That is, this
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: is a real colonial power suppressing and uppressing people.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, ask the Cypriot say how the breeds can be
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: as a masters and the leg which, by the way,
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: if you get in a rabbit hole, their ideology is
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: absolutely creepy. It's a weird It has elements from bolsavis Me,
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: elements from anyway. There are basically three hundred people, it's
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: not it's a very small it's a very small g and.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Goon is based on on the writings of a guy
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: named Jabotinski, who is actually quite good. If you read him,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: he's he is much more of a capitalist, and he's
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: much more of a republican in the republic, in the
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: republican form of governments sense, then the state of Israel
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: becomes uh and and intellectually, you know he is he's
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: quite an interesting thinker, so he's is not something to
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: be dismissed. Is a splinter off of the Orgon, which
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: is a bunch of crazies.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I mean it is.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: It is pretty radical and and and a little out there.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: But but again these are small. The reality is that
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: organize a vast majority the organized is is link to
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: the left. The founder's visual all leftists, I mean, and
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: that is the primary driver. I mean, there are actual
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: violence between Ana and Yagun. There are actual violence between them.
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: Will get to that, will get to the famous boat,
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: will get to that incidence in forty eight so after
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: the war, we have a very important development, diplomatic development.
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: So there's an American British commission and they say, okay,
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: we have to see what we're going to do with
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: the land. So what they do is they go actually
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: and visit the leadership of the Arabs, They visit Ben
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: Gurion and most importantly, they visit the reality of the
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: ground of the land.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: So they visit Jewish communities, they're impressed.
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: They visit Arab communities, they're not impressed, particularly because the Arabs.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Don't want to meet them.
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: Again, the move tie does the job of of alienating
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: the alienating the ARBs from the international community. So they
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: realize the international community, they realize that we cannot sacrifice
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: this community has as if these things for this community
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: that is, you know, it's not.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Promising to put it, to put it lightly.
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: And yet at the end again they call for the
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: bi national state, so not a partition, one state and
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: figure it out. Guess what the Arabs do again, No,
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: we don't even want this. They they resume, they resumed there.
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: They are also a struggle against the British. So that's
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: also around the time of the King David Hotel, so
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: quite violent years, and this violence means that at some
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: point the breeds are hopeless. And around nineteen forty seven
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: they passed the hot potato to the UN. And this is,
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: by the way, the time they also abandon Greece. There's
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: a civil war in Greece, and they tell to the Americans, look,
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: who cannot help the Greece.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: You deal with this, yeah, I mean they go to
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: the UNSA you deal with this. Yeah.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: I mean. Britain is folding its empire.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: It's doing it in a howey, You've got the Pakistan
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: India thing, which is a whole complete disaster which millions
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: of people die. I mean in the British are basically
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: just they.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Just want out. They don't want the mess that is
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: involved in.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: But it's also im put in a note here that
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: during this period, this is post Holocaust nineteen forty five
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: to nineteen forty seven, there's no immigration again of Jews.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: The White Paper still holds. So literally people are leaving
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: the concentration camps in Europe. The survivors they've got nowhere
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: to go. I mean, they can't go. There's no home,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: there's no way to go back, you know, Some go
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: back to the little villages in Poland who are now
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: occupied by the Soviet Union.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: But the polls there, you know, you know, violently push
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: them out.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: They don't want They've taken over the Jewish shops, they've
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: taken over the Jewish homes. They don't want to back
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: in the village. They're not going to stay in Germany,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: almost all of them. And yet they've got nowhere to go.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: The Americans won't take them. I mean, let's be very clear,
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: American boat is shut to Jewish immigration. There's nothing, and
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: they can't go to the UK. The birds don't want them.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: So a lot of people, i mean, it took me
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: a while to realize this, but a lot of people
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: who survived the Holocaust too, who have survived the concentration camps,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: are stuck in Europe, and they're basically kept in camps
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: in Europe.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: And then then they figure out a.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: Way to run away and they get to the boader,
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: They get to the to the Mediterranean, and they get
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: them boats and they sail to Palestine, where they expect
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: they can be free, and the British literally stop them,
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: and they set up camps in Cyprus.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: And where they take all of.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: These refugees and they put them so these are out
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: switched survivors are now in a camp in Cyprus with
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: bob wire to prevent them from making it into Palestine.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: A few of the boats make it right, some of
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: them smuggle in and they make it illegal immigrants, but
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: many of them land up on the shows of Cyprus,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: and many others never managed to leave Europe until much later.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: So I think it's important to note that there was
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: now there's a real demand of Jews to go somewhere,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: and yet the British are still stopping in migration in
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: in spite of everything that's happened during the Holocaust.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: And in Poland it's not just that the Jews are
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: not welcome. There are hundreds of Jews are actually killed
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: after the Holocaust by localsts.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Two other developments in that time.
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: As you said, the Holocaust is casting a heavy saddle.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: So Trueman, who is now the president after FDR from
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: I think ninety forty six, already Truman says, look, we
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: need to have a partition, We need to have something
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: there to something to make things happen there. And the
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: unexpected ally that they find is Soviet Union of all places.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: So in Yalta, FDR.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Throws a line to style and stuff like, look, I'm
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: kind of a Zionist and stylism, I'm also a Zionist,
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: and then he starts in the same bread he has
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: a baras of artists medically, their profiteers, their parasites.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: But we understand they need to have the land.
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: So the Soviet representative in the UN GROMCO, who's gonna
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: plays a role in the Cuban missile crisis.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: We can do a whole episode on that.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: He's he's supporting his ideally one state, but that's probably
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: not gonna happen, so so actually to.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Two states. And now obviously why the Soviets do this.
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: They want to put the weds on British imperialism. So
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: the idea is, yeah, these are potentially also potential allies.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Potential allies, I mean these are Benguyona's a former communists.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: Almost almost all the founding fathers of Israel were socialists,
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: and some were at least had originally in the youth
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: certainly been communist. A lot of the migration in the
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: early twentieth century, very early twentieth century the Ottoman Empire
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: were communists.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: In Russia, who couldn't, who felt.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: It's never gonna happen in Russia, right, well, never have
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: communism in Russia. So they go to Palestine to set
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: up these little communes. They would see them, which are
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: these little communists where where they can live communism? And
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: then even after the revolution happens in Russia, this is
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: not real communism. We need the real thing, and they
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: go to Palestine to bring the real thing. Now, by
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: the time Israel was founded in the mid forties, very
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: almost none of them a communists. They've they've gone out
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: of it. They've realized no, I mean it doesn't work.
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: It certainly doesn't work at scale, it doesn't even work
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: in the local lol kibusim uh and and and they've
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: moderated their views. But they all started out as communists.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: And the Russians start, the Soviet start, they could be
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: an ally. And by the way, one of the reasons
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: Truman might have supported this as an attempt, you know,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: he thought, if only the Soviets support them, they'll go
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: to the Soviet route.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: We need to balance this off.
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: And yeah, actually, if you see the emblem of the
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: Workers Party, that a fire.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's even still around, but back.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: Then the emblem was basically a sickling hammer in a
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: different combination. So it's and also let's say they were Hagana.
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: Hagana training comes in at least three socialist countries, definitely
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: of Slovakia, definitely Hungary, and I think also in Poland.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: So there's this very brief period where the satellites of
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: Soviet Union are actually actually friendly.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: All the weapons, all the weapons the Jews have during
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: this period in the particularly once you move, once the
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: Brits leave and during the War of Independence, are primarily
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: coming in from Czechoslovakia. They're coming on from the Eastern
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: They're coming out of the Eastern Bloc. The United States importantly,
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't think people know this, but the
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: United States basically is an arms embogo. They don't want
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: to take side, supposedly, stay embargo the whole region, and
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: then they don't lift Armsenbogo until the nineteen sixties under Kennedy.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: And really they're all lifted until nineteen sixty seven, fully
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: lifted until nineteen sixty seven until the State War. So
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: this idea that the United States is in the pocket
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: of the Israelis and the Jews throughout its history is
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: kind of science fiction if you know the history.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: And also even we view the American government, the Foreign
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: Office under Marshall, as a line of its own compared
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: to Truman, and Truman gets very angry with Marsha. But anyway,
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: to fast forward a bit, because so I'll skip anyway somehow.
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: In ninety forty seven, the UN says, look, here's an
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: idea partisan plan. Yep, Jews will get fifty five percent. Now,
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: someone could say, but fifty five that's more than a
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: Jewish population.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Keep in mind it's mostly desert. And also keep in
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: mind this is with an eye to.
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: Receiving many refugees Holocaust survivors, so there's gonna be eventually
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: more juice.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: But literally half of it is desert, because they get
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: the whole sudden part, which is desert, and then they
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: get the population centers elsewhere elsewhere exactly, Albums get forty
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: five percent. But Jerusalem is an international city, it's it's
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: under un CHARDA, so nobody runs Jews them.
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: No, nobody runs the Erusalem. So Arabs get something like, yeah,
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: forty two percent. The Erusalem and Bethlem are international land.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: And also importantly, people are free to move from one
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: side to the other. The implicit understanding, let's make sure
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: they are as homogenous as possible. Obviously Jews would want
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: to stay with the Jewish state, the arms with the
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: Arab state. The Arab reaction is, and I quote, the
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: blood will flow like river. So everyone knows at that
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: point there's a war coming. And already now the surrounding
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: Arab states. We're gonna talk a bit about the Arab
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: states who they are, but all come together and tell
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: the world if because the UN has put this on
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: the table, but it hasn't been voted yet, so the Arabs,
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: the Arabs say, look, we give you a warning. If
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: you vote on that, there's gonna be war the next day.
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: And who are the Arabs? Very quickly, so you have
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: Syria and Lebanon, which on paper the republics, because around
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: the French influence you have Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Yemen,
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: which are all style kingdoms, and you have Egypt and Iraq,
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: which are let's say protector constitutional monarchies used to be
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: British protector. Now we're going to talk later about the
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: inter Arab divisions because they're going.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: To be important in the in the in the world later.
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: But the important thing is that in November ninety forty
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: seven you have the most important decision in the UN,
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: which is the partition plan. Anything on that year on
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: before we go to the results of the UN vote.
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: No, I mean yeah, remember you what Jordan severe eleven
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: And with the exception of Egypt, all these countries are
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: relatively new, the all creations of French and British co onealism.
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: There is no historic none of those states historically has existed.
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: And their leaders maybe we'll get to this in a bed.
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: Their leaders all been assigned by the.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Birds or the French, right, so, and they hate each other.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: They hate each other, yes, and they all rivals.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: Egypt is the only state with the history and and
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: and and as a monarchy, and the monarch has be
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: there for a while, and it has a history.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: But everybody else, and of course there were already each
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: other's through its.
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: And something important to understand what's going to happen in
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: a few months in the war. While the Arabs all
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: they do is give threats and actually also organizing a
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: volunteer army of irregulars basically to go in Palestine. The
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: Jewish are doing miracles. So a guy called the Hudavriel,
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: he flies to the US. Remember, at that point, Hagana
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: basically has only rifles, and Israel is not allowed to
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: buy weapons, even from Slovakia because it's not a state
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: and only states can buy weapons. So they have to
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: ford some documents and say, I think it was for
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: ethiopy or something like that. But the most impressive stuff
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: happens in the US. So they go to the United States.
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: They find scrap materials from old factories, They disassemble them,
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: they put them in random combinations. They send them to
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: Israel and then from memory they have to reassemble them,
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: hide them to prepare for the war that is going
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: to come in a few months. So this is this
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: is this is a testament to human in theenuity and entrepreneurship.
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: How the Jews prepare for the upcoming war. Also, I
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: thought the most glorious fundraising tour in the US was
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: my fundraising too for Aari last year.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: It was Golden eight. Turns out in nineteen forty seven.
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: She goes there and it comes back double the amount
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: of money that BEng Guryo expected.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: Okay, November they vote on it and U N votes
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: on it, and it's it's a it's it's not an
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: easy win because obviously the Arabs all voting against it,
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: and they're rallying many countries to their cause.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: But since the Soviet Union in the United States are
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: both voting for it, the resolution passes. The Jews at
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Israel eagerly awaiting.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: This result, and as soon as it happens, they're literally
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: out in the streets celebrating. The photos and videos of
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: of people dancing in the streets all over The opposite
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: is happening in among the Arabs. The Mufti, i think
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: at this point is in Egypt, but he's outside of
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: the county, outside of the country. But they are already
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: scheming on on how to stop it and how to
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: increase the violence. And violence actually starts the next day
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: on a bus on the way. He toduced them that
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: gets shut up, and so the blood starts flowing literally
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: the next day, as the Jews are still covering from
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: the celebrations the night before.
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: Of course Ben Gurion, who is who was he was
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: not celebrating because I mean, obviously he was happy, but
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: he knew, okay, guys, now it's time to prepare for war.
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: So another super important thing that happens around the vote
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: is that the British announced that they will depart within
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: a few months.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Eventually the day would be the fifteenth of May.
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: So after the UN votes for the partition, Ben Gurion knows,
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: I have five months to prepare for a war against
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: potentially seven different nations. Stands out the one B seven,
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: but in his mind potentially could be seven. And all
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: this at the time when the Jews could not even
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: carry a single pistol on so let.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: That sinking people.
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: He has to prepare an army when the Jews are
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: not even allowed to carry to carry pistols, so they
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: have no tanks, no airplanes, no proper artillery, and yet
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: they have to prepare for an upcoming war. But turns
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: out the war, as you said, starts the next day.
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: And this is the stage of what we should call
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: the civil let's say war. So it's a war within
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: Palestine between the Haganah and between Arabi regulars, the Arab
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: Liberation Army, so indigenous Arabs also with volunteers from the outside.
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: And a high light there is the battle for Jerusalem,
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: for the seeds of Jerusalem.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Sor it's but I let you you probably know way
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: more on that well.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: But also remember the British are waiting in the middle
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: of this.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: So yes, there's a there's are a violence between the
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Jews and the Arabs, but the British waiting in the middle.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: H there's a lot of blaming of their you know,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: the Jews are blaming their British for siding with the Arabs.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: The Arabs are blaming the British for siding with the Jews.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: The British don't know what to do with themselves. They're
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: completely panicked at this point. They don't know how to
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: resolve this situation. They generally, it seems to take the
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: Arab side more frequently, but it is They're in a mess.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: They're in a mess and they're trying to get out
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: of it. Yes, you know Jerusalem. Jeusalem is a city
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: where a lot of Jews still live. They've lived this
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: since the beginning of time. Really, they've always lived in Jerusalem.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: It's one place where Jewish presence has always been. There
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: is a large, relatively large Jewish population outside of the
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: city walls being to Jerusalem, it's surrounded by this ancient wall,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: which is not as ancient as one would think, but
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it keeps being was reinforced different different periods.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: The Jews are the first ones to start neighborhoods outside
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: of the city walls, and they are outside the city walls.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: But there's almost no there very few Jewish settlements, so
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: any kind of towns of cities between Tel Aviv on
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: the coast and which where most of the Jews now live,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: and and and sprinkled across that area and to the
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: in the north. There's nothing between that and Jerusalem itself.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: So there's a thin corridor with one highway basically one
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: road highway, one road, a single lane road that goes
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: from Tel Aviv or from the from the center of
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: Israel up towards Jerusalem.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: Jeusalem is up in the mountains.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Tel Aviv is of course at sea level, so it's
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: difficult to get up there. And really Jerusalem is surrounded
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: by Arab Arab settlements, Ab towns, there are villages, and
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: the road that is leading to Jerusalem is along the
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: road mostly to this day. If you drive that road,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: almost all of them are Arab towns and Arab settlements.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: So violence immediately starts in Jerusalem, and the Arab tactic
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: is basically to surround the Jewish population in Jerusalem and
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: to try to starve them, to try.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: To force them to kill them or to force them
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: to leave. And so it is surrounded.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: They also block the main road going up to Jerusalem
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: is completely blocked. There's no way to get through it
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: again the Arab villages on both sides, and you know,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: the situation for Jews in Jerusalem becomes really really dire
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: in the first months of nineteen forty.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: Eight, and the Arabs want to have this so called
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: around Jerusalem not only to starve them, but also to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: make sure they die of thirst. If they had achieved that,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: then the war would be over before it even it
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: even started. So what the Jews tried to do is
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: they try to send convoys of buses accompanied by the Haganah,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: but technically you cannot have weapons again because it's.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: The bridge are still there.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: So soon they realize that this is a losing strategy,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: so then they decide to go on the offensive. And
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: this is the famous Plan d that many people have heard.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: So this is actually the Jews saying we're not going
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: to save Jerusalem.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: This way.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: What we have to do is we have to chase
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: the minder village is basically, and my overall take from
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: this period is this is practically a period of anarchy.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: And this is why this is a period where you
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: have atrocities because, for example, you cannot keep prisoners of war,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: you cannot have prisoner caps because you are not allowed
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: to have an army. So from both sides, this is
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: a period where you see some of the some of
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: the worst crimes against the against civilians. And this is
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: the period where something like seventy five to hundred thousand
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: Arabs have.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: To leave their villages. Now.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: Some of them are doing it because they are kicked out,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: some of them do it as a precaution. Some are
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: doing it before even the Jews are anywhere near. They're
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: rich people and they want to go somewhere else, or
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: they realize that there are no more economic prospects and
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: they can go somewhere else.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: And this is the important thing. The Arabs have somewhere
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: to go.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: If your village is about to be a battlefield, the
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 4: Arabs can't actually go somewhere, They just have nowhere to go.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: And this is why you have a lot of Arabs living,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 4: some of them forced, some of them not forced living,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 4: to go somewhere else because there was this option and
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: also this period.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: We have to mention this because someone will bring it up,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: and they should bring it up.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: We have the most infamous case of a war a
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: trusted by the jew side, which is the Derya scene
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: massacred and this again was done by the most and
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: and there's a lot of controversy exactly what happened. So
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: the Jews claimed there was some warning, but then it's
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 4: not sure if the village has got it. Anyway, there
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: was a battle and some a hundred villages were killed.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: There's no question. Some of them were civilians and some
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: of them was after the battle. So what this did
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: is that now the Arabs had the propaganda tool, so
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 4: they massively exaggerated this. They were you know, sexual violence
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: and all that stuff. But these had the opposite effect.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: Instead of galvasanizing the Arabs, now you have many other
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: Arab village these would saying, oh the Jews are doing
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: horrendous things, and they left before even the war. The
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: war came to them. But anyway, thereasin comes up all
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: the time. By the way, let us mention some days later,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: Arabs did massive atrocities here and there, the burning of
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: their doctors I think, going towards the Jerusalem University after
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: a battle. But this is a period again where you
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: basically have anarchy.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: On this period the yeah, I mean, look, the Jews
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: are trying to clear the road and they're trying to
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: get supplies to Jerusalem. The Arabs are clearly trying to
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: kill the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem, men, women, and children.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: They don't care.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: It's not like they're evacuating the women, and you know,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: as long as the men stay, that's okay. They want
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: to kill everybody there, and the Jews are trying to
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: find ways to get supplies up there. They're building an
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: alternative road in secret, it's called the Burma Road, which
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: is a pretty amazing logistical feat that they managed to
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: find a way through the mountains that the Arabs can't
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: don't identify initially, But they're really trying to clear the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: villages away from the main road because that's where snipers
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: are shooting at the trucks, that's where their tacks are
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: going on the road, and they're trying to clear space.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: This is war, and the reality is that during a war. Yeah,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: you got a clear villages, they have strategic importance, and
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: particularly when people are using those villages, using those civilian
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: buildings to attack.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: To attack from. So were the atrocities committed towards civilians
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: that were necessary?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Very very likely.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: Was they rape and pillage the way they average describe it.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: Probably not, But there was killing of civilians that probably
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: was good tuitis It probably was not, you know, and necessary.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: But for the most part, these villages.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Were clear to people because the existence of the population
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: there was a threat to the civilian the Jewish civilian
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: population in Jerusalem.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: They couldn't have survived if these villages are not being cleared.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: But you're absolutely right.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: The fact that the Arabs made such a big deal
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: so they turned it into rape and pillage and and
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: and these horrors which did not happen. That caused many
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: many Arabs to run away, to say, we don't want
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: to risk it. You know, we got relatives in Lebanon,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: we got relatives in Jordan, we got relatives somewhere else.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: We just can evacuate.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: And much of the so called refugee crisis, it was,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: you know as well, did kick out a lot of
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: people for security reasons, but a lot of them just
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: at this point already are leaving out of.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Fear, right, and fear is a legitimate reason to leave.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: Just if you lose the world, don't expect to come back.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: And something which is a myth, which is not true
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: after all, is that the Arabs were telling them leave
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: and because we're getting in the in the war, so
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: there was no braveio broadcast by the Arabs telling.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: Them to leave.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: But something that did happen is that in the Battle
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: of Zappa, the Arab leadership is a vacuating the city
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: without a reason, and the Jews are telling the Arab
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: civilians you don't have to live. So in this case
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: you have an urban environment, it's not a strategic threat.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: So you have the very weird situation the Jews telling
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: to the Arab civilians don't live, or in the first
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: days you can come back, and the Arabs themselves telling
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: them to go because they're afraid. They're afraid for their
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: for the life. But this becomes a big problem for
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 4: the Arabs the people who are living. So actually King
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: Abdullah had to make a radio broadcasts and say anyone
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: who lives is basically a traitor and and something something
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: something like that.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: But just but just actually happens more than just in Lord.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: I mean in Haipha.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: The Arab National Committee of Haifa, acting on instructions supposedly
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: from the Arab High Commission based in be Woods and
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: I think with inputs from the Mufti and who I
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: think was in Kirori at this point, is telling this
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: civilians they evacuate, and in a number, in a few days,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: you know, tens of thousands of Arabs leave Haifer. You know,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: they and the Jews are literally saying, just like in Lord,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: you know, don't leave. The Jewish Mayor of Haifa at
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: the time, along with the British, pleading with the Arab
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: population to remain and to stay. And at the end,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: you know, five to six thousand Arabs state the rest
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: leave and at that point Arabs are majority of the
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: population in Haifa. So there are multiple occasions in which
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: Arab forces are encouraging Arabs to leave for a variety
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: of reasons. Most of the Abs and Haifer go to
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: Lebanon because it's the closest country, it's just up the coast.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: But it does, it does happen more than once that
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: so they some of them are kicked out because they're
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: sitting on strategic locations.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Some of them are kicked out probably because yeah, I
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: mean because the.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: Military forces, the Jewish military forces, you know, moving through
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: the area and want them out. Some of them are
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: kicked out, leave because they're afraid, and many of them
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: leave because they're encouraged to leave.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: And I think all of those reasons add up to
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: the massive exodus of Arabs from Palestine at the time.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: So at that time we have, yes, around seventy two
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 4: hundred thousand people, so still not the majority of the
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: majority we live with the actual war anyway, So the
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: first part of this conflict ends in a triumph of
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: the Jewish population. The Arabs are pathetic in their military performance.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: Karma is a beat.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: Their leader was someone who was a former Vermachte colonel,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: and the Arab Liberation Army has a very very bad,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: very bad performance. The Moveti has not many and so
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 4: there are also a lot of inter Arab failed some
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: of that going back to the riots of the thirties
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 4: and even previous tribal conflict. So this let's say civil
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: war sets the Jewish community in a good place for
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: the because remember, everyone has an eye.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen when the bridge if that's when
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: the actual war is going to start.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: So if the if the Haganah hadden God and these
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: strategic outposts, they would not be ready for the incoming artists.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: So indeed, fourteenth of May Ben Gurion declares the establishment
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 4: of the State of Israel, and then May fifteenth we
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: get to the to the main Arab Arab invasion.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: So any comments on that first pid dossal we get
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: to the main war.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, many of these I leave before
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: the declaration. They in essence, they make it easier for
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: the Jews to fight the Arab bombies because they've got
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: fewer Arabs internally to deal with, They've got less problems.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: The victory in opening up Jerusalem is massive. You're right.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: Without that, it's not clear what happens. There's a good
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: chance the Jews lose that war.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: But just is going back to the Haifa example, this
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: happens in April and April twenty eighth of nineteen forty eight. Right,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: twenty five to thirty thousand Arabs leave. This hasn't been
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: a shot fire in Aifha yet, right, the civil wars
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: don't even come to Taifa. But imagine if the Jews
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: have to fight that war inside Haifa at the same
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: time as they're trying.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: To protect the borders. So this is a huge, a
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: huge defeat in.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: Advance for the Arabs, the fact that they they leave peacefully, right,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: they all just march out of Haifa, and you know
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: later they are going to be some battles in Haifa.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: But it's made much easier by the fact that there's
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: a much smaller Arab poppy.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: So here comes a time then that Israel declares its independence.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: And here's the problem for the Arabs. All the Arab
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 4: state leaders, because they want to appease the Arab street
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 4: have made very grandiose bellico statements and they have promised
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: we're gonna We're gonna do this and that. The King
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: of Saudi Arabia declared that my last wish is I
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 4: want to die as the head of my troops. Who
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: is gonna fight in Palestine fast forward. He didn't send
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: even like one thousand, one thousand men. So the Arabs
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 4: among themselves, they have very bad relationship. So you have
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 4: the Hassemites, that's a dynasty in Iraq and in Jordan.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: But the Egypsians and the Saudist and the Syrian hate
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: the Hassemites well.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Partially because the Hashemites think that they should rules are Arabia.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: I mean this goes back to the Lawns of Arabia,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: the Lawns of Arabia or the British during World War
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: One promised Saudi Arabia to more than one family, obviously
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Saud family, but also the Hashemite. So the Hashamites think
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: they should be rulers of Saudi Arabia. But then a
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: bitter say, well we already promised to as Saud you
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: can't be in the Saudi Arabia. So in a sense, Iraq,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: well for Syria, right they give They give Jordan as
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: Syria to the Hashemites as a as a constellation prize,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: right for not getting Saudi Arabia. And then they put
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: this king in Syria. You know it was a Hashemi,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: and Syrians don't want him sans hate thing is guts,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: so they have to move him and put him in
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: the rock. So so he leaves Syria.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: The King of Syria leaves Syria and they put him
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: in the rock. But but the Hashamites don't belong in
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: I Rock. The Hashamites have no presence in Iraq. It's
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: just they're completely from outsiders. They're from Saudi Arabia ultimately Jordan.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: There's kind of a relationship, but there's nothing in you Rock.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 3: So ultimately he's kicked out as well, and you get
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: the boss partty. But but yes, both they hate each
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: other's guts. It's their very existence is all dependent on
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: colonial deals. The Egyptians ultimately are ambitious because they've always
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: been the empire, right, the Egyptians have always ruled the
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: Middle East uh and, and they're ambitious. They they would
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: love to be able to take Palestine. They they want
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 3: that coastline. They think it's part. They think it's theirs,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: and so there you get to go. The Jordanians think
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: what they hell is should be easy. Right, it's a
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: very narrow from from the river to the sea, from
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, very narrow.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: We could just take that, that's easy.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: The Syrians are looking at and saying, wait a minute,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: we're not going to leave it to those guys. We
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: want a piece of this as well, and we could
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: easily take northern and the Lebanese are kind of I
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: don't know what the Lebanese are thinking. The Lebanese as usual,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: they're not very committed because they don't really have an
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: army and they don't they have their own internal problems,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: and I don't think the Christians particularly want to go
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 3: to war. And then these i wuki is away behind right,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: they don't even have a border with Palestine, but they're
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: going to come in because of the Hashemites, the you know,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: the relationship with the King of Jordan's so h it's
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: a mess.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: All of them have their own ambitions.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: They're not coordinating between each other, the backstabbing constantly each
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: other as they go to war.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 4: And Jordan, of all these countries, is the only country
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 4: that has an actual army that has actually fought the
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: war because that army is the Arabligion, which participated in
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 4: World War Two in some British operations, and they're.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: Trained by the village as they have supprise. The Egyptian
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: army didn't fight in World War to North Africa, hmm, yeah,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: because they were trained by the Bits as well.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: So all these armies, funnily enough, we're trained by the birds.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: Not not a good testament to British training.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: And the French.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 4: The Syrians and Libanese, I think we're trained by the French.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: So basically some of these countries has fear of missing out.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: Particularly Egypt does not want Jordan to get the now
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 4: Jordan though, I'll give them this. So before the war,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 4: Golden mayre goes twice, I think to meet the Jordanian
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 4: king and they get into some forb of understanding that
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: says that look, the king says, I want West Bank
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 4: and part of Jerusalem. And as we see with the war,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 4: this part of the war ends relatively quickly in the
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 4: first the Jordanian the Jordanian Front, and it's relatively relatively
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 4: approper let's say rules of conduct war.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: They're not like the respect for the bows and things.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, they slaughter.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: There are settlements deep inside what today's the West Bank.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: There's anima I think it's called the Jewish settlements, and
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: the Gannadian army just massacres them. So but but yeah,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: relative to some of the other armies, they are the
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: most civilized army there. And King Abdallah, the father of
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: King Hussein, is a is a pretty reasonable guy who
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: kind of gets it. I mean could have probably kind
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: of deal with him if he was really running Palestinian affairs,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: I mean part of the instead of instead of the Mufti.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: He he he, he actually was was one of the
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: Arab rulers who kind of saw, okay, well we could
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: live with the Jewish state. He never he never signed,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: I never went for a piece deal because he knew
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 3: what would happen.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: To him if he did. But I think he realized
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: that this was not a net negative for the Middle
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: East and for his own country. But yes, they that
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: part of the war once it's all that captured juice
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: them and had a path to juice them, you know
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: that part of the that part of the war pretty
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: much settled down pretty quickly.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: And you mentioned the Grand Moftie.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 4: The very funny detail here is that the Palestinian leadership
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 4: does not want the invading Arab armies. Everyone everyone has
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: their mind they come to save the Palestinians. The Palestinian
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: leadership does not want them, and they hate each one
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: of these rulers. They hate each other, but they also
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 4: hate the Grand movete Ye the Ryan ghostlin looking at
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 4: because he again he has zero allies in the area,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: and he doesn't want the intervention because he knows that
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 4: all these states just want to grab something.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: And which are these states?
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 4: So the states that actually invade are Egypt, Jordan, Syria,
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 4: and Iraqis.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: And army through through through Jordan.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: On these some troops, nothing made or happens, and the
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: sud descents some like troops, but it's I think they
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 4: they're not even autonomous. They fight under the Egyptians anyway.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 4: So I'll leave it to you how the how the
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: world goes, you you know, better to sum it up.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, basically, the.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of the main brutal fighting happens
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: both on the Syrian front and on the Egyptian fund.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: The primarily I think in Egypt, the Egyptian army tries
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: to break through. There are these Jewish kibbutzim and settlements,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: uh you know, in the in the this is primarily
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: desert area and off from Gaza, where you know, brutal
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: battles happened. But the settlements dig in and they fight back,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: and they they are facing unbelievable odds in the sense
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: that the Egyptian army has tanks, and they have mechani vehicles,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 3: and they have a trained army. And what happens with
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: the Jews is, you know, the once Israel is established
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: as a state, the camps in Cyprus opened up and
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: all these you know, malnutrition, half starving Jews get to
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: come into Palestine from Cyprus. And as they get off
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: the boats, they handed a gun, you know, and they're
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: sent to the funt. And but these people handed a gun,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: they for the first time in their lives, have an
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: opportunity to defend themselves. They have just been led to
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: the slaughter without any means of defending themselves.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: In Europe, they know what death is like. They have
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: nothing to lose. They've got nowhere to go. It's not
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: like they could run.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: It's not like America saying, hey, come over here, we'll
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: give you say favorite, this is it.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: This is all they have. So what you get at
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: what you get among the Jews in Israel is.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 3: A highly highly motivated, under equipped, under armed, but highly
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: motivated fighting force. And they beat these armies back, They
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: beat them back inch by inch. And it's because they
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: know exactly what they're fighting for.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: The fighting.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: The Egyptians who are fighting have no clue either there right,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: they don't know, you know, These are farm These are
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: kids on the.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: Farms down the Nile. Right. They've probably never even seen Cairo,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: never mind the world right.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: They don't know what they're fighting for. They have no
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: concept that the dirtport. And yet now they're supposed to
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: capture Palestine for the greater glory of what the same
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: to the Syrians. There's no Syrian state, there's no Syrian patriotism. Necessarily,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 3: what are they fighting for? Who are they fighting for?
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: What's the deal? The Jews are fighting for their lives,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: and it's it's very real, it's very visceral. They know
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: exactly what the alternative is. They've lived it.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: They've left the concentration camps, they escape the ovens, they've
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: got a machine gun in their hand, and they are
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: fighting for their lives, and they succeed. The Arab armies
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: fail on every single front.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: And if you look at the partition line nineteen forty seven,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: what was offered the Palestinians and where the war ends
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: up in nineteen forty eight, the Jews take a big
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 3: chunk of land there was partition for the Palestinians and
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 3: place it under Jewish control. They clear the Galley which
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: was originally but much of the Galiley was going to
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: be Palestinian. They clear the Galley, which is a northern Israel,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: you know, and then they clear it. The only part
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: of southern Israel the Egyptians take, or always there's in
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: a sense as Gaza, which is good riddance. I think
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: everybody's happy that the Egyptians have gods. I wish they
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: had it today. And you know, it's all basically comes
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 3: out of this war, with borders that are far far
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 3: more defensible and for more logical than they were, and
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: with a with a significant other population now living with
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: in Israel within this new.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: State ten to fifteen percent. I think and speak about
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: against all odds.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 4: We need to remember that the people who come to
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 4: Israel and fight, they don't even speak the same language,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: not the same language.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: It's not that they don't speak Hebrew.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: You can have a battalion and five people speak five
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 4: different language, Polish, Germans. It's a crossy and it's yeah,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: so it's it's a miracle from and at the same
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: time it's not a miracle because again the Arabs don't
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 4: even have a plan. Their level of coordination is literally
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 4: you'll come from the north, will come from the south
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 4: and we're going to meet in the middle. This is
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 4: literally the level of coordination, whereas the Jews don't know.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 4: It's not only that they know what they fight for,
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 4: but they have a good leadership, they have an integrated leadership,
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 4: and they've been preparing for this war. They have good logistics.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 4: Something else which is similar with today. Every couple of
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 4: weeks or months, there is a ceasefire imposed by the
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: powers to be after the first is fire, say, after
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: the first sea is fired. Both sides benefit because the
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 4: Jews they now have the state of Israel.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: Now the organize the idea. The idea gets the guns
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: that they have ordered than the new troops.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: But after this is fire, every ceasefire is basically saving
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 4: the Arabs.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: It's like saved by the bell.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: And towards the end of the war, correct if I'm wrong,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 4: the Israelis have pushed the Egyptians in Egyptian soil in
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 4: the Sinai and the United Nations are intervening. So the
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 4: idea is running basically with the shot clock that we
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 4: have to achieve particular strategic victories.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: Before they stopped us. As we've seen happening also with
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: the other wars.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and every war the same thing happens basically. But yes,
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: they you know, they are incredibly successful. Now they do
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: get some some American volunteers come Jews, American Jews, and
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: you know, there's some pilots who can fly planes and
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 3: they managed to somehow get planes and they they're bombing
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: the Egyptian columns, and you know, and they get some
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: British RIF fighter pilots who are again Jews, come and
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: volunteer and fight in the.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: Side of Israel. So they do get some experience, people
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: with experience fighting. But yeah, it is, it is. It's
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: truly as astounding. They were clearly the underdogs.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: I think the Truman administration expected them to be wiped out.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: They expected the State of Israel not to survive. That
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 3: was the expectation, certainly in the the Foreign Office, Foreign Office,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: State Department, what we call the State Department.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: And and yet they did.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: And during this period, of course, a significant number of
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: Arabs leave, They leave the territory that is being occupied
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: by the Jews. They leave either to Arab countries or
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: they leave to what became becomes the West Bank, and
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: they settled in refugee camps there there is some conflicting
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: evidence in terms of the exact number that actually that
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: actually depart total and the total number, you know, the
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: number of seven hundred thousand is flown out there, but
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 3: you know, there is there was some conflict about even
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: that number, whether that number is not exaggerated.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: But you know, again, a huge number of Arabs are leaving.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 3: Now again, some as we said before, are kicked out
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: because they're sitting on strategic locations that are essential for
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 3: national security, for the defense of the future state, of
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: the emerging state of Israel. But almost all of them,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: and you know, not to say that the zero atrocities
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: they're probably are a few, not to say that nobody
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: is kicked out for gratuitous reasons, they.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: Probably are some.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: But the vast majority, the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: leave because they decide they don't want to live in
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: a Jewish state. They leave because they are hopeful that
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: one day they'll be able to come back victorious in
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: one way or the other.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 4: And the truth is, of course that the Israeli leadership
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: they hope that as maybe as few Arabs as possible
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 4: stay behind, which makes sense, and again it's exactly the
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 4: same from the other side. The other side also captured
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 4: some Zeus cape URIs and they are actually they're wiped out.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: The interesting thing is that the first.
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 4: Time the Arabs raised the issue of the return of
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 4: the refugees is the second Seas Fire, when they realized
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 4: they've lost the war. So they're all ready it's basically
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 4: a cope, we've lost the war, but we need to
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 4: find something to put on the table so that we
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 4: don't get completely completely humiliating.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: And it's always willing to sign a piece deal and
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: have a significant number of the refugees come back, but
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: they as would not sign a piece deal.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So the war ended with armistice, and the Iraqis
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 4: didn't even sign an armistice because they said, we're not
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 4: going to sit on the same table with the Jews,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 4: but to raise the issue of the civilian casualties. So
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: there were something like eight hundred to nine hundred at
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 4: least according to morris a civilian casualties from the side
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 4: of the Arabs throughout the war. Now, for me, I
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: don't want to justify a single one of them if
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 4: it's not military necessary, but just to put it into perspective,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 4: Israel in almost a year, killed fewer civilians than Hamas
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 4: killed in one day.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: And again this is not I don't even like saying this,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: but again it's.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 4: A war, and for a war, and for a war
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 4: of that era, relatively, particularly the second part, relatively some
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 4: rules of.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: Civility.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 4: However, you want to collect Compare this with the Soviet
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 4: Soviet advancement ends the Europe.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: It's not even or even compared with the Balkan Wars
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: in the nineties.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's ridiculous. It's the causes.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, certainly there were I'm sure there were individual
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 3: cases of really bad behavior, but they were there. And
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: in war there were always cases like that. And there's
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: no war in which this has never happened. Every American war, seenus,
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: every war, you know, these atrocities, some atrocities happened, but
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: you know, in the context of what was going on,
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 3: these are trivial numbers. Seven hundred thousand left and maybe
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 3: there were eight hundred civilian casualties. And you know, that's
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: if you trust Benny Moris, which I don't, but okay,
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: but you know that would be by upper bound I
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: would say that would be the most I think that
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: could be found.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: Part of what's interesting is of the people who left,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: almost the entire upper middle class and wealthy classes among
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: Palestinians left, and they were the first ones to leave.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: They left in late forty seven, early forty eight, even
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: before the war started.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: They were the ones that really, you know, abandoned the place.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 3: So there's a sension which the Arab population in Israel
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 3: had no kind of political and economic leadership after the war,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 3: and they've done better than the Arabs everywhere else right,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: they've done really, really well living in Israel. So about
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 3: you know, one hundred to two hundred left during the
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 3: civil war phase, three hundred to five hundred thousand left.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: During the war itself.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: They settled in Jordan, many of them in Jordan, many
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: of them in Lebanon, depending on which part of many
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: of them in Gaza, and then many in the in
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: the in the West Bank. And and that is those
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 3: are the Palestine new refugees you hear about, or it's there,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: what is the three generations? Now many how many refugees
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: on in the world that survived three generations?
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 4: So my last point, because this is gonna be like
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 4: the yeah, you just don't went to it five hours episode.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 4: My last part will be this. So we're talking about
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 4: seven hundred thousand, let's say, Arab refugees. By the way,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 4: this was also the approximately a bit less than that,
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 4: the amount of Jewish people who have to go from
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 4: the Arab world to Israel. So you had something like
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 4: a practical swap of population. And the world still cannot
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 4: get over this. Yes, but the world very quickly got
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 4: over the one million Greeks had to leave Asia minor
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 4: in twenty two, or the more than ten million Germans
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 4: who were displayed after World War two, or god knows
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 4: how many Indian and Pakistanis had to switch after that conflict.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: Millions, millions.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 4: The only the only refugees who stayed refugees. By the way,
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 4: why are we talking about the Israeli refugees, because the
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 4: Jewish who came from the Arab countries, they were became
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 4: part of the Israeli society. They didn't stay refugees for
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 4: we don't say the Greek refugees. Then they came to
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 4: Greece and then they became part of Greek society. Tragedy horrible,
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 4: but life went on. But for these particular refugees, they
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 4: was used as porns so I was gonna say it again.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 4: If you care about innocent Palestinians, you should be leavid,
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 4: you should be angry against their leadership that even when
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 4: the war was over and for ages after that, they
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 4: keep they keep actually tormenting them. So that's all I
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 4: had for the war of nineties forty eight.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: So just to give people the sense of the population,
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: by the end of forty eight, they were about eight hundred,
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: eight hundred and fifty thousand people in what became Israel.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: About seven hundred and twenty of those thousand would use
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: the rest were Arabs, so it was about ten percent Arab.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 3: Today it's more than that. Today their population inside Israel
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 3: there is about two million out of ten or approximately ten,
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 3: so it's about twenty percent.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: They had a lot of babies.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 3: This is the you know, the apartheid state of Israel
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 3: that brings them down in Yet their population has grown
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 3: and there's some of the best economically best performing Arabs
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: in the in the in the Middle East, and certainly
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 3: from a freedom perspective, the freest Arabs in the Itire
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 3: at least.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 4: And mentioned also that I think something like three million
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 4: Jews came from virus places in the world. So the
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 4: Jews imported basically population still today somehow the Arab population,
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 4: which was not important so we don't include the West
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 4: Bank and Guy kept out somewhere between ten twelve percent.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and today it's close to twenty.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 3: So it's it's yes because that I mean the birth
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: rates now lower than the Jewish population, but for a
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 3: long time they were much higher and they had a
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 3: lot of kids. Anyway, we could do a whole show
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 3: on apotheighth, but maybe we should. What it is, what
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 3: it really is, what it was in South Africa, and
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: what you know, and whether it is in Israel.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 3: I think I think we did justice to this in
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 3: an hour and a half. We could spend ten hours
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 3: on this and really delve into the history.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 4: Not to guild to the people. I have eleven pages
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 4: of notes and we use the not even half of them.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the whole books on this right, And I
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: don't know if you ever did you read the fun
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: Collage book, college book.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 4: I've read mostly to prepare this. I mostly read the
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 4: Morris and for more like light reading the Old Rusalem book,
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 4: which I reckon.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: Man, it's a very it's a great reader.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: So there's a book by If I'm couch, who is
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: a Stormian I've met? I know he was. Uh, it
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: was in the UK for many years and uh. He
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: debunks a lot of the.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: A lot of the mythology about what happened during this
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: era and uh and challenges a lot of the assumptions
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: and is a a big time opponent and adversary of
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 3: Benny Moris.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: Uh so they are.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 4: Uh and uh So I watched I watched Benny Morris
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 4: on lex freet when I was like, why is not
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 4: yet on there?
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: Like this guy could not see?
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what he was? I mean, if you
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: you know, he's the guy. Benny Morris was the first
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: what did they call him post Zionist.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 3: He was one of the first who basically came out
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 3: and said Israel was created in sin. You know, all
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 3: this stuff is much worse than what you think. He
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: later attracts a lot of what he said originally, but
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 3: he created a whole movement in Israel among academics of
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 3: historians writing about Jewish atrocities in during the founding and
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 3: pre founding in the early days of Jewish settlement in Israel,
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: and he became the main guy until the second Intifada,
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: and during the Second Intefada he kind of realized God.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean he once said, I don't think
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 3: the Jews kicked out as many Arabs kicked out aggressively
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 3: as many Arabs as as as as people think, but
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 3: given the Second Intevada, maybe they should have, you know,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, he got to the point where he became
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: kind of much more right wing, but he was he
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 3: was way over on the left for a very long time.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 3: And so if you ever want to delve into this again,
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: if i'd colesh Is I think the best.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: He really takes a part a lot of those, a
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: lot of the quotes that Benny Moris has. He also
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: claims that Barry MOUs mistranslates Bengolon and lies about the quotations,
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: and he presents the Hebrew versus the English and takes
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: them out of context. And he really he really does
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: a job on him. All right, Uh, let's.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 3: See we have some super Chat and let me let
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 3: me go through the stickers and thank people on the stickers. Barry,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: thank you, Martin, thank you, Steven, thank you, Let's see John,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 3: thank you, Uh, Chili fan first super Chat, thank you,
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 3: Chili Fan, Bonnie, thank you called thank you.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: Robit. We started off with Robert.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 4: Let me also say thank you before we get to
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 4: the supercharch. I wanted to say a big thank you
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 4: to Ryan. So last week jokingly, half jokingly, you said
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 4: someone needs to get me a standing desk. So Ryan
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 4: actually got in contact and he donated something to buy
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 4: a standing desk. So maybe next time I'm going to
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 4: have a standing desk. So a huge thank you Ryan,
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 4: and also a huge thank you.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: To you for bringing this up.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 3: So also minda you can support Nikos and Patreon. Just
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 3: check out Nicos dot org just nicos dot so he's
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: supports and you can find a links there on how
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 3: to support how to support Nicos. But Patreon's a great
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 3: way for all of us to get support because it's monthly,
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: it's regular, and you can support me on patreons and
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 3: just check you on book show on Patreon. And yes,
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 3: we're looking for we're looking for more regular supporters. Of course,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: if you'd like to make a major gift like by
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 3: nicos standing desk, contact Nicos directly.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: And just so which Ryan, which Ryan was it? So
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: we give credit. Ryan knows who he is and you
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: know who he is. That's good. Excellent. Let's see, so
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: we've got a few one hundred dollars super chats. All right,
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: so I'll do the easy ones first. Wes says, I'm
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: loving these shows. Thank you both. Thank you.
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 3: Wes really really appreciate the one hundred bucks. That is fantastic.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 3: Glenn says, a great show, really informative. Thank you both,
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Glenn, thanks for all the supports. All right,
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 3: moulten Splendor, I love that name. You know, if you're
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 3: gonna have a handle, you should have a handle like
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 3: Molten's Splendor.
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: That's good, all right.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: Is it true that the wood Knockbob and Arab world
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 3: for catastrophe was coined by an Arab in nineteen forty
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: eight to describe how bad the Arabs lost the war
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: against the Jews in nineteen forty Well, not in nineteen
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 3: forty seven, but yeah, in nineteen thirty a wood, which
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 3: was subsequently turned into one hundred and eighty degrees into
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties to describe Israel as the aggressor. I mean, yeah,
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 3: there's a whole discuss, but actually you go, yeah, I
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 3: mean yeah, it definitely means catastrophe. It means disaster. And
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 3: originally it was coined to describe the fact that they
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: lost the war.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: It was a disaster. Every element of it is disaster, partially.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 3: The fact that they lost, but the fact that the
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 3: Jews landed up with more land than what was given
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 3: to them in a.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: Partition, and the fact that seven hundred thousand Palestinians left
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: their homes and we're now refugees. So the Knockba captured
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: all of that. This was a catastrophe from the Arab
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: world's perspective, it was a total catastrophe. And it's absolutely
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: the case that the first two elements, the defeat, the
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: increase in land, and all of that, you know, were
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: dropped off and all that remained was this idea of
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: the refugees, and that story has become more and more
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: and more story of the Jews kicked them out.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 3: They kicked them out, they threw them out, and then
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: when they wanted to come home, they wouldn't let them
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: come home. At the libertarian you know, I debated this
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 3: libertarian property rights. They've got property rights.
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: You know. You know there's a war. You know, if
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: you start a war and you.
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 3: Lose it, or your political leaders start a warning they
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 3: lose it. You know, they've they've basically negated your property rights.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, if the Arabs the Palestinians have a claim
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: against anybody for the value of their property, it should
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 3: be against the seven countries or the five countries that
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: invaded Israel in May nineteen forty eight.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: For what it's worth.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know anyone who would say, yeah, if someone
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 4: comes up with the title there was a peaceful person
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 4: and kicked out, and naturally, I think e Israel in
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 4: all the peace offers like this is the easy thing
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 4: to take care of it.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: This is not the reason why the Palestinians are still.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 3: And it's not going to allow them back, but it's
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 3: all would pay. I think who would be willing to
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 3: pay some compensation property for the people who who are
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 3: peaceful peaceful? They'd have to prove that they were peaceful.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 3: But again, you know, there is a consequence of losing.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 3: And this is why, this is why who your political
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 3: leaders matter, right, you know, they represent you, whether you
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 3: like it or not. If they start a war and
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 3: you get bombed as a poor civilian, well, I mean
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 3: they're your political leaders. The enemy has a right to
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 3: bomb you, so pay attention to your political leaders are
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: it's not.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: A trivial issue, it's it's important. So yes, Moulton, you
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: are absolutely right, all right, And.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: What is the all.
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: Influence of secular Muslims if they exist in any form
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: the way secular Christians exist in the United States? Is
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: this even a valid comparison? Well, I mean Palestinian society suddenly,
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: you know, if we fast forward to the sixties in
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: the West Bank and even Gaza sixties and seventies was
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: probably the most secular Arab society in the Middle East.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: They were not very religious at all. It's not clear
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: how religious they were.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 3: Even in the nineteen forties they were there was a
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 3: there was a particularly among the rich. They've been educated
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 3: in kind of Western schools. The nationalism, kind of old
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: school European nationalism and collectivism, fascism even were much more
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 3: prevalent than religion.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: Religion has really.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 3: Become big deal since November nineteen seventy nine, since the
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 3: rise of Humeni.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 1: But Palestinians were relatively secular. The Palestinians within Israel still
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: relatively secular, although they.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 3: Become more religious since I left Israel. So I remember
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: in the eighties there were no bookers in Israel, almost nobody,
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: even in the Arab villages. They were head coverings, but
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 3: not the whole black thing. Now you go to is
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 3: Israel and they're there, They're in high further you know,
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 3: you can see there. So they become more religious, not
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 3: less religious. Sadly An that's true in the entire Arab world.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 3: You saw an increase in religiosity during the nineteen seventies
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: and really in the eighties and nineties.
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 4: But again that is not to say that the Arabs
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 4: did not use Islam and religion in their war, even
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 4: already from ninety forty eight, so already there calls by
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 4: religious authorities, respectable religius authorities needs about the words they
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 4: had is going around, So anything that can bolster the
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 4: population to go attack was used them.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: Islam was a mobilizing factor.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: Stephen, I'm a monthly subscriber and I usually can join
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: the chat live, but wanted to pop in and say
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: this is a great collaboration so far looking for it too,
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: many more interesting topics, absolutely, and I should mention again
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: next week.
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 3: It will be on Saturday, same time, three pm is
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: coast time, and we'll be talking about the manosphere.
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 4: Maybe people should watch that documentary on Netflix with Luistro.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 4: Although that's we're gonna do mostly historical overview of the
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 4: manuscir and how it gets related to the culture war.
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: So that's that's what is of interest.
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: So what is the documentary? What's it copy?
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 4: If you put Netflix Manosphere, you'll find it's by Louis thero.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, we'll look at it because I haven't seen it. Right.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: Richard says, thank you both for these shows. Here's my
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: monetary vote for more. Thank you guys.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 3: Richard also says, how do Marxist envision the AI's impact
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 3: on their movement? Artificial intelligence is the ultimate labor thief?
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 3: Is it the ultimate labor thief? An opportunity for universal
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 3: income or something else?
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 4: So they would say that on one hand, this is
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 4: the Marxist prophecy fulfilled. So Marxis said that at some
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 4: point the means of production gets socialized so much, which
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 4: basically that we live in practical communistms, so you can
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 4: have everything with a press of a button.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: Just that mars utopia.
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 4: More like the scientific theory. So March wouldn't consider the utopia.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 4: He would say, this is where the system is goes
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 4: and he was a to something he foresaw where capital
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 4: is going. You just have to add this detail that
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 4: capitalist will prevent it from.
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: Breaching like this last step.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 4: But markets will say that the fact that they are
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 4: varu facis called it techno fudalism. So the AI should
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 4: not be owned by these techno fugels. And my solution
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 4: to ar is, hey, you could create the next such
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 4: a bet, give it to the people, and we're gonna
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 4: if it's better, we're going to leave aside sud a bet.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 4: So go ahead, Varupakis. I'm sure you can do better
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 4: than some altman.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but the idea is that the robots will do
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 3: everything and you'll be able to do, you know, do
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: whatever you want. And yeah, in a sense it's kind
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: of a universal income. But I think they would even say,
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 3: well who needs money? At that point? Food will just
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 3: be whatever you want it to be. It's like start
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 3: check your press a button and it just show up.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: The robots will provided there's no cost, there's no production necessary,
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: It just happens, right, The robots produce it, you know,
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: make it possible. That's the beauty of AI.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 4: Well, the funny thing is that it will happen eventually,
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 4: and it will be capitalism and the human minds free
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 4: in capital that will have produced.
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: It well, and it will require a constant use of
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: the human mind.
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: It's not an end. There is no end in that sense, right,
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 3: So then you're in the stars and you're manipulating matter
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 3: somewhere else. I mean, there's always going to be a
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 3: nature is always going to try to kill us, and
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 3: we're always going to need to be on our toes
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 3: to prevent that from happening. An sways, so Glad Nichos
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 3: is doing this with you. Yes, thank you and thank you.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 3: Enerick was a large part of the Arabs being against
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 3: Jews is the secularization, modernization away from traditional Islam.
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: The Arabs oppose it because this is secular and it
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: was modern and it was it was all that.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 4: Well, there is no question that there is an anti
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 4: Western element in the Arabs against that. So they see
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 4: us with the West intruding and they see it as
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 4: something which is alien. I think that's the best way
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 4: to capture alien. West equals alien the Jews. The Jews
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 4: are West alien, therefore they are unwelcome. And this is
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 4: slightly different from there. So when we're going to cover
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 4: the next wars, where now the Arabs are under like
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 4: nase and more Baptist type resims. We will see a
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 4: slightly different narrative, but particularly.
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 2: In the First War. Yes, there is there is this element.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, it's anti Western, but it's you know, again,
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know they used jihad.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: They use the idea of religion as part of it.
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 3: You know, the Jewish and not live in Muslim Land.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: That is a or if they do, their second class citizens.
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 3: There's a whole there's how to deal with them, right,
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 3: but they shouldn't. They shouldn't have sovereignty in Muslim Land.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: So there's definitely that as a part of it. Religion
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 3: plays a part of it, but a lot of it
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 3: is again, there is an element of nationalism and just
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: a lot of them are influenced by the left and
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 3: they want modernization, but they wanted under their terms. They
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: wanted under the terms of Arab kind of nationalism, and
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 3: that that's where the Arabs are heading. They're heading towards
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: nationalism until that fails. We'll get to that in sixty seven, but.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: With the anniversaries not that far, this could be the
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: episode in three weeks.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, it is in early June of nineteen
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: sixty seven. Let's say, Shoulty, he has too many more
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: episodes of you on in eCos dialogues.
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: Thank you shouldy, they said, so it took me away
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 4: from her, because how to research a lot?
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, real spack Nicos.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: Do you read?
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 3: Do you read leon Ewis novels Exodus QB seven, Mila eighteen,
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 3: et cetera. Can you comment on? Yes, that's question number one.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 3: Question number two is can you comment on the Disseus movie?
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 3: And then the third question is, uh, who was Greek
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 3: Marathona speed on Leuis?
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 4: Yes, so I don't. I've tried multiple times to do
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 4: to read science fiction. I can never get into it.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: Us is not science fiction, which one leon Ewis, it's
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: not science fiction? So check out Exodus.
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 4: Oh wait wait wait, wait, okay, sorry, I I completely sorry.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 4: It's it's it's it's too late exoduce the is it
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 4: for the boat?
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's the refugees from You're coming to
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: as well as a movie. It was made into a movie.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: It's a good book. And uh and it's and it's.
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: Actually I know the story. I haven't read the book.
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 4: It's it's an absolutely horroring story because these people at
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 4: some point end up in Germany. So imagine they and
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 4: they were inmates in the German Come, so imagine how
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 4: they felt. I think they end up in Hamburg, gor
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 4: Hanover or somewhere somewhere there. So so yeah, it's the
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 4: story of the of the boat exto. Yeah, sorry, it's
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 4: it's a bit too late. It's midnight yet, and.
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: Uh you know QB seven to eighteen.
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, leon URIs is a is an interesting kind
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 3: of historic historic draw.
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: Drama, dramatizer of history. Stark novels.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: At least two or three of them will late to
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 3: the early days of of kind of the War of
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 3: Independence and the Jewish state and stuff.
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's quite good. Now I
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 4: get what Olfred is talking about. But no, I haven't.
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 4: I haven't read the eg of them, but I know
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 4: the story of the second question.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: Comments on Odysseus, I have no idea.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: I haven't watched it. I'm a big fan of Nolan.
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 4: Then, the biggest esthetic experience I ever had was watching
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 4: Interstellar on Imax.
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: So I'm ready to cut him any slack. I'll go
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: and watch it.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: You're willing to tolerate a black uh, you know, Helen
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: of Troy.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's absolutely ridiculous. But let's see, it's Nolan.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 4: He deserves every cutting of slack. And the third question,
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 4: Spiro's Lewis was the winner of the first modern Olympics
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 4: in the marathon and to his own or, the Olympic
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 4: stadium was called the Spiro's Lewis.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: Richard says, thank you for applying to my AI question.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: It exceeded my expectations.
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 4: We always exceed the expectations. That's why we have eleven
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 4: pages of notes per episodes.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: Exactly that is, that is what you're going to start
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: expecting from us. Let's see, did we get any other
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: I can't share if I thanked Stephen March and Barrye
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: and I know I didn't thank exit for these stickers.
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys by Cobb.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 3: Why did Alexander Dugens say last week that Russians are
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 3: the real white people.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well why does the rest of the stuff.
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 4: So Dugin went to something where he said that basically
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 4: Indians are the real Areaans or stuff like that. By
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 4: the way, when I was reading about Lehi. They were
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 4: some proto Dubians in some way. They had this very
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 4: weird combination of the worst part from the left and
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 4: the right. Yeah, so I think Dougiens, if this guy
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 4: played it better, he would be in every sociology textbook
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 4: because he's basically a postmodernist.
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but with the Russian nationalism he loses it.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 4: Otherwise, every every intellectual in the West, modern intellectual would
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 4: would love him.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got is more mystical, He's more explicitly mystical
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: than they would be. But you know, so he's this
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: weird combination.
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 3: It's but the whole question is what does it even
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 3: mean to say real white people as compared to what
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 3: unreal white people is compared to mixed people as compared
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 3: to you know, who was the first one who got
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 3: the pigment white?
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: I mean in his skin.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 3: I don't even understand what the what the issue is. So,
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 3: but there is something about the Arian people. You know,
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 3: this is a the Indians, the other original Orian people.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 3: The Orian people come from Central from Central Asia. They
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 3: split it to two somewhere to Germany. Some went to India.
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 4: That's why Himler was obsessed with the whole Indian and
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 4: Oriental stuff.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 6: He sent some expeditions somewhere to when the swastika is
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 6: a symbol that comes from India. O yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 6: Christian Nikos. Months ago, I asked you if you think
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 6: the Gunners will win the Champions League.
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: You were skeptical. Then now in the final against past
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: Man your prediction.
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: Look, this team is.
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 4: The most unbearable team to watch because they're the most
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 4: defensive minded team in the history I think.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: Of modern football.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: But they do it so well.
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 4: I give them credit on that. If you do something,
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 4: this is a message to all of you people. If
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 4: you do something, do it right and all the way.
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 4: If you're gonna have a YouTube, so give it all.
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 4: If you're gonna be the most defensive team, be the
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 4: most defensive, da own it. We're talking about the team
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 4: that it takes them forty five seconds to do a
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 4: throwing because they want to make sure that nothing happens
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 4: in the field. If it was possible, they would take
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: the ball away and leave so that there would be
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 4: no game.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: That's how they're gonna win the Champions League. Maybe, I mean,
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 2: what can we say?
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: Well, but we should we should hope not because other
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: teams will then emulate them and make the sport bowing.
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I cannot.
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 4: It's difficult for me to to support a team which
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 4: is basically catar having a club. Although I love Louise Endriquen,
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 4: the truth is Paris Men in football terms, in what
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 4: we see in the field is absolutely magnificent.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 3: All right, I'm not gonna argue with Nicols about football. Basketball, yes,
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 3: but football probably not. Steven, what are your plans for
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 3: these dialogues?
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 2: To do them?
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 4: To find every week something which will give you some
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 4: value and knowledge but also has so you're gonna learn
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 4: something new, but also it has relevance on today.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 3: Yes, but you'll learn a lot of history and a
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 3: lot of intellectual history, a lot of intellectual history, a
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 3: lot of intellectual movements.
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, the first two shows have been primarily.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 3: About physical history, if you will, but we're going to
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 3: talk a lot about intellectual movements, particularly intellectual movements that
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 3: have strong relevant in at the you know, at the margins.
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: Of the world today, pulling pulling the world today.
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: Molten splendor, says Nikos in your in your event with
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 3: heavy Ben Swing, we simply a devil's advocate, And did
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 3: you agree with the responses to your examples.
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 4: The truth is Harry thinks I was a Davis advocate,
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 4: but I meant what I guys, I think. I think
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 4: it makes no sense to give people to give people context.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 4: So Harry said that we should have zero contact with
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 4: the Soviets after during the Gold War, and my point was,
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 4: if you have a power through your mistakes, but now
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 4: they have the capacity to destroy you, it makes sense
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 4: to try to understand the better. And for me, it
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 4: makes perfect sense that Nixon tried to to to build
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 4: a personal relationship with bresni If. It didn't work that
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 4: well with Bresnif, but it definitely went with Gorbachev. So
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 4: I don't think it is a sanction if for your
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 4: own benefit you try to build some sort of relationship
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 4: with someone who is explicitly and you know.
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 2: Is your enemy. So there's a theme line. Remember what
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: we discussed last week.
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 4: We had to be on the same bed with the
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 4: Soviets in the Second World War, but the problem was
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 4: that we didn't understand the essence that they were the enemy.
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 4: You can understand the essence and then you can have
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 4: some sort of relationship to your own benefit.
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: This is not what the Americans did. But this does
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: not mean that you have zero.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 4: Communication with the enemy when you both have nuclear weapons
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 4: in your arm to the tieth so Harry claimed, even
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 4: during the Cuban missile crisis, the back channels we you know,
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 4: we didn't need them, or at least that's what I.
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: Understooday Roland says, thanks for very instructive show. Thank you, Roland.
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 3: And the last question from Neo is who the Palestinians
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 3: that came in after the Romans kicked out the Jews.
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 2: As zero idea, I don't know who.
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 3: There were no Palestinians, that category didn't exist, so I'm
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 3: not sure who you're talking about. When the Romans kicked
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 3: out the Jews, there were people from the surrounding countries,
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 3: surrounding territories. Wasn't in countries from the rest of the
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 3: Roman Empire who filled in filled in the gaps. I
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 3: assumed there were all kinds of people living here. I
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 3: remember the Babylonians and the Perusians. They did a lot
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 3: of population replacements. They you know, they took the Jews out,
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 3: they put somebody else in. They moved people around, But
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 3: you know, there wasn't any kind of we don't know
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 3: what nationality and the necessarily had.
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: All right, I'm waving my head, but I know nothing
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: on that part of history.
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: Yes there's not much.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 4: And but one last thing I want to say. For me,
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 4: all these does not matter. That's why I don't like
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 4: the mic can be type of defense to Israel. I
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 4: couldn't care less who was there two thousand years ago.
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 4: I couldn't care less who got promise to what if
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 4: Israel was not the rights respecting country.
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 2: If in fifty years Lebanon is let's.
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 4: Say, classical liberal society and Israel is a non liberal society,
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 4: I will be making a so supporting like the moral
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 4: case for a Lebanon or whatever.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: I don't care what happened two thousand years ago.
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: Yep, I agree, I agree completely, Carolina. Thank you really
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: appreciate it. Coming in.
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 3: Remind us show next week is on Saturday. On Sunday,
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 3: three pm East Coast time. We will be talking about
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 3: the manosphere. I'm looking forward to finding out what that
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 3: actually is. And yeah, I guess I will see you
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 3: guys tomorrow. Oh tomorrow, I've got an interview. We're doing
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 3: two shows tomorrow, one at three and then we've got
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 3: an interview at seven pm tomorrow East Coast Time with
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 3: Josh Wyndham. Josh is a lawyer at the Institute for Justice,
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 3: so an important group that sues the government, and we'll
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 3: be talking about the cases he's working on for the.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: Institute of Justice.
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 3: So join me tomorrow. Two shows, one at three pm,
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 3: one at seven pm. Nikos, I will see you on Saturday.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Bye everybody, Bye.