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“Kevin’s Gavel In A Vice.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Marjorie Taylor Greene says she would have
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: organized a more successful coup. Kevin McCarthy still can't find
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: 218 votes for Speaker, and Kyrsten Sinema leaves the Democratic Party.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Then-Democratic Senator Brian Schatz joins to talk about democracy, the
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: debt ceiling, Twitter, and Hanukkah. He did talk about Hanukkah.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: He did talk about Hanukkah. But first, Tommy is out
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: today for the very best reason. He and Hannah are
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: home with their new baby girl, Lizette Louise Vitor, in
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: the happiest surprise imaginable. Uh, Hannah got pregnant a few
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: months after their daughter Margo was stillborn. And after a
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: very long year, uh, Lizzie arrived on Tuesday. She is beautiful. Uh,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: and after a few scary days in the NICU, she
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: is home and doing well. And it is just the
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: absolute best feeling, uh, seeing Hannah and Tommy just radiate joy.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Really happy with them.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Really happy. Uh, so best news ever. So happy
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: and excited. And, uh, Tommy will be taking some time, hopefully.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: We don't know how long.
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: Until then, for us, it's takes for two.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Takes for two. Takes for two.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Takes for two.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: That's what we're calling this episode. All right, let's get
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: to the news. In case anyone's still wondering where the
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Republican Party is headed after running a bunch of election
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: deniers and then refusing to ditch their 2024 frontrunner for
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: dining with Nazis, we got another hint at the Young
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Republicans event in New York City over the weekend. I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: couldn't attend. Did you... I assume you didn't attend either. No, no, no.
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: I decided to. I'm going to go to the one
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: in L.A.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: The one in L.A., right, of course. So after the
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: organization's president said, quote, we want total war and, quote,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: must be prepared to do battle in the streets, Marjorie
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Taylor Greene took the stage and said this.
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: Then January 6th happens, and next thing you know, I
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: organize the whole thing along with Steve Bannon here.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you something, if Steve.
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: Bannon and I had organized that, we would have won.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Not to mention, it would have been armed.
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: They say that whole thing was planned, and I'm like,
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: are you kidding me? A bunch of conservative Second Amendment
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: supporters went in the Capitol without guns, and they think that.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: We organized that?
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: I don't think so.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: First of all, I think she's overestimating her organizational prowess.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no evidence that she could put together an insurrection.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: But I also think she tells on herself a bit
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: when she says, we would have won. You're supposed to. What? OK.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: So wild applause from the crowd, which included Don Jr.,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, the publishers of white nationalist website VDare.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: So then the White House called on Republicans to condemn
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the violent, dangerous remarks in response. Greene put out a statement.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: She said her comments were a sarcastic joke, sarcastic joke.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: And she went on in the statement to attack drag
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: queen celebrities and a former Twitter employee fired by Elon Musk,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: as one does. Yeah, sure. What do you think of it?
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: It was just sarcasm defense. So it's just a joke.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Didn't it sound like it was just sounded like a joke?
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: First of all, she said a lot of things and
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: she meant she meant it all. And the other guy saying,
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: you know, we want to be prepared to do battle
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: in every arena, the media, the courtroom, the ballot box
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: in the streets. He means it, too. She obviously, she
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: means it. What she's saying is we could do this
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: with guns and we could be more successful the next time.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Also, by the way, she's ignoring the fact that they
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: were armed. Many of them were armed.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: Yes. Several people died.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Several people died. Many of them were armed.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: Anyway, we should assume they mean this and not just
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: in the sense that that guy wants to cosplay as
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: a brown shirt when he says, we'll do battle in
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: the streets. He doesn't mean he's going to do battle
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: in the streets. He wants vulnerable and broken, angry young
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: men to do battle in the streets on his behalf that,
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: and you know, so that enough people take this kind
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: of rhetoric seriously that like, there'll be part of protests
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: at a drag show. There'll be part of bomb threats
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: at a children's hospital. They will chase librarians out of
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: their jobs. They will fire bomb a donut shop that
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: hosted a drag show. So that's what they, that's what
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: they want. They're very excited about that. When they say
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: in the streets, they're very, they're, they're, they're proud and
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: excited about the intimidation that they can unleash. Maybe they'll
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: want a bit of, they'll, They'll create some ironic distance
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: from the actual outcomes of what they're calling for. But
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: they want us to be intimidated. They want people to
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: be afraid. Yeah.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: And look, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene and a bunch
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: of other Republican entertainers, pundits like this, they can say
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: that they're just joking or trolling, you know. But Philip
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Bump at The Washington Post pointed out that there's an
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: enormous amount of polling now that shows there's more sympathy
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: for the use of violence as a political response by
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: the right. It's been increasing. Most recently, a nonpartisan poll
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: found that one in three Republicans agreed with the statement,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: because things have gotten so far off track, true American
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: patriots may have to resort to violence in order to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: save the country. That's one in three. So she can
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: say that she's joking, she can say that it's sarcasm,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: but she is speaking in the context of an environment
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: where a third of the party that she's part of
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: actually believes that violence could be a solution at some point.
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: And, you know, like, I was thinking about this and
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: there's this problem we have now where the conversation, when
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: someone says something like this, even when there's an insurrection
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: of the Capitol, we even saw it after Dobbs, that
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: immediately the conversation is what could happen next? They could
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: do contraception. They could do gay rights. They could come
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: after gay marriage or even interracial marriage. And it's like,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: it's like our political press is always taking laxatives. And
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: so like, it just runs through things really, really fast.
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: It processes it way too quickly. And like, Hey, Things
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: are pretty bad right now. We don't need to worry
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: about what's next. And and like there's this problem with
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: always going to the next thing. And it's two problems. One,
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: it does ignore how bad things are already. But also
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: it kind of makes everything this conversation about one big question,
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: which is like, will America be a free and inclusive
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: democracy where people are safe? And then everything goes into
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: that one question. If Republican election deniers are defeated, it's
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: seen as a rebuke to Marjorie Taylor Greene, which in
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: some sense it is. But maybe there are two questions
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: we're answering. And one is, will people like Marjorie Taylor
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Greene and Paul Gosar and Matt Gaetz and some of
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: these right-wing kooks, will they have power enough in the
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: Republican Party to win elections? Maybe, maybe not. But they
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: don't need that power to answer a different question, which is,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: can they make life in America demonstrably worse and scarier
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: for people that don't look and think like them? And
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: they are already successfully doing that. That is happening all
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: the time.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So there's always this tension between wanting to highlight and
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: condemn violent rhetoric like this and not wanting to amplify
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: it and elevate someone like Greene. We've talked about this
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: a million times. This is the second time in two
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: weeks that the White House has put out a statement
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: not only condemning this, but then calling on every Republican leader,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: every leader everywhere to also condemn this dangerous rhetoric. Why
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: do you think they've decided to go this route?
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think first of all, just politically, we
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: did just go through a midterm election where Democrats overperformed
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: in part because of Republican embrace of extreme people and policies.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: And we should force every one of these Republicans to
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: answer for people like MTG every day, in part because
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: when we do force them to answer for it, we
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: find that they're terrified to do so, that they try
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: to avoid it as much as they can because of
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: their own political weaknesses. Also, Eight in 10 Americans right
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: now are concerned about political violence. As much as you're right,
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: there is a rise of violence acceptance on the part
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: of Republicans. But at the same time, the country itself
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: is turning against it. One reason it is important for
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: the White House to call this out is because it's
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: one of the biggest threats we face in this country.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: And that's not coming from the administration. That's coming from
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: law enforcement officials. You start to look at the list
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: of what has been unfolding. You have five people murdered
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: at the Colorado Springs massacre a few weeks ago at
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: a gay bar called Club Q. The massacre at the
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh. That inspired the Poway shooter.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: who also tried to burn down a mosque, the El
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: Paso massacre, the Buffalo massacre, the Highland Park massacre, the
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: attack on Paul Pelosi, the insurrection. You have far-right goons-quants
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: menacing a drag show in Ohio. GLAAD counted 124 protests
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: and attacks. Hard to differentiate between protests and attacks now
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: because they're really harassment campaigns that run the gamut from
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: thugs chasing drag queens down the street to broken windows
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: and storefronts to people being forced to quit their jobs
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: because they're terrified of being attacked. And so you have, like,
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: Elon Musk on Twitter claiming that, like, Right. Free speech
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: is under attack because they took Hunter Biden's dick pics
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: off the Internet while there's like actual violence, actual threats
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: of violence, curtailing actual speech every day and like changing
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: the way people live because they're afraid of the right
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: wing in this country.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: And there's been it's a noticeable increase.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Like just this year, right wing extremists have taken part
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: in at least 55 actions targeting the gay community, an
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: increase of three hundred and forty percent from just the
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: year before in 2021 wasn't great.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah. It's never been great.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: And, you know, the Department of Homeland Security, not a
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: bunch of woke liberals at the Department of Homeland Security,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: just issued a terrorism advisory bulletin in the last couple
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: of weeks that warned about violent extremists targeting LGBTQ Jewish
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: and migrant communities. It's happening all across the spectrum. It's
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: targeting vulnerable communities and marginalized communities all over the country.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, at a higher level, it's Republicans
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: just saying that any who doesn't think like them or
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: look like them is not worthy of being safe, feeling
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: safe in this country.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: And, you know, when people like Marjorie Taylor Greene say, oh,
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: it was sarcastic, when they say they're doing it with
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: a wink and a nod, that is not new. That
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: is very, very, very old. Using irony, treating it like
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: you're being clownish, treating it like a joke, treating it
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: like you're just trying to freak the libs. Like this
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: is an old strategy for laundering hateful ideas. The people
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: that know what they mean, know what they mean. And
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: the most broken, the most dangerous, the most isolated are
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: the people that are going to take these kinds of
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: ideas to their logical conclusions. And these people think they
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: can have plausible deniability by claiming it's a joke, by
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: claiming they never actually directly encourage violence. But that's what
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: they're stoking every day. They're just raising the temperature every
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: single day.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And on the flip side, you know, back to the
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: question of like why the Biden folks, why the White
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: House was so quick to put out a statement. Obviously,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: there's a political reason. Obviously, it's just like the right
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: thing to do. But I also think there's a practical
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: effect here. Like we know that when leaders condemn this
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: kind of rhetoric, they make it more difficult for their
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: supporters to embrace it and to potentially incite that. Right.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Just as Marjorie Taylor Greene and others, by joking around,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: are more likely to incite this kind of violence. You
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: can prevent this kind of violence when people in positions
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: of authority, people who a lot of people in this
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: country look up to or take cues from, say enough
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: is enough.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: It can be a vicious circle or a virtuous circle
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: between the base of a party and the leaders of
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: that party. And Democrats, I think, were not paying enough
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: attention to what has been happening, not just over the
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: last six years, but over the last 30, 40 years,
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: as that conversation got more and more heated, as right-wing
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: radio and right-wing extremism found more and more quarter, and
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: it got to the point in the Trump years where
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: these leaders and officials felt they were no longer in charge.
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: They no longer had the power to denounce it, that
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: the Trump movement was not just politically potent, it was
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: electorally successful, and they became afraid. When you see little
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: cracks in that, when you see election deniers start to lose,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: when you see Republicans, a few of them anyway, even
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: if they're too afraid to actually denounce Trump by name,
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: when you see just little bits of space, like, We
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: have to get into that space and like push them
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: and try to make that space bigger, not just because
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: it's going to help us defeat Republican extremists, but because
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: that's how over the next so many years we can
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: begin to like go in a better direction. There has
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: to be a way out of this. Yeah.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: So a decent number of Republicans in Congress responded to
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Trump's latest bullshit by saying, oh, he's unlikely to win.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: You know, we were talking about that's a an understandable
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: strategy and maybe even an effective one within the context
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: of a Republican primary. It doesn't really apply to Green.
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: No.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And Most of the Republicans in Congress, most of the
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Republican politicians, they've been pretty quiet today. What do you
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: think that is?
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: I don't think they feel like they have to respond.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: I think they can get away with being quiet.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: They're probably right.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: Oh, she's just a kook. You know, she's doing her
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: kooky thing. We're kind of all, it's all been, it's
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: all sort of baked into like the stock price of
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: her and nobody's pushing them. Nobody's asking them. They don't
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: have to, they don't have to account for it.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I also think that Kevin McCarthy needs her to be speaker.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: Well, that's why he specifically can't say anything, right? Kevin
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: McCarthy needs every vote. I mean, first of all, yeah,
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: this week he wants to be speaker. He's always wanted
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: to be speaker. Kevin McCarthy promised to put Paul Gosar
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: and Marjorie Taylor green back on their committees long before
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: he knew he was going to be in a four
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: seat fight to become speaker of the house. He capitulated
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: to these people long ago.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: But, and it's like, but because he needs her to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: be speaker, she knows that she now gets to say
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: and do whatever the fuck she wants.
• 13:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Not like she was, uh, holding back before yeah contained
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: but now she knows that she has real power in
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: the republican party and no one's really going to punish
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: her because kevin mccarthy wants to keep his job and
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: like by the way mitch mcconnell has a growing problem
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: in the senate too like he used to just have
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: ted cruz now he's got a whole bunch of ted
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: cruz's in his caucus and so he's going to worry
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: about that shit too yeah it's not good uh well
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: let's talk more about kevin mccarthy who seems to be
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: the most miserable person in washington right now that is
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the that's the silver lining um He needs 218 votes
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: to become Speaker. Six House Republicans, known as the Never
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Kevin Movement, Yeah, I love that, have already said they
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: won't vote for him, which leaves him with 216 votes
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: at most. And that's a lot of Republicans, especially new members,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: still haven't said how they'll vote. So it could be
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: more than five or six. I think there's like four
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: who've said like no matter what, they'll never ever vote
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: for him. And then the fifth and sixth are sort
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: of like, one said like in an extreme circumstance.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: They're wobbly enough that he could just get the votes
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: he needs.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but so far he doesn't have them. But we
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: should also say that McCarthy's opponent, Andy Biggs, also doesn't
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: have anywhere near 218 votes. So here's what pro-McCarthy Republican
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Don Bacon of Nebraska said the other day. Quote, if
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: this small group refuses to play ball, will work across
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the aisle to find an agreeable Republican. You think that's possible?
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Well, I think, first of all, you know, Don, don't
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: threaten us with a good time here. That is a threat.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: That is a threat to these Republicans.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You and Aaron Sorkin aren't right in the... Look, listen.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Right in this episode.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: If Paul... If Kevin McCarthy, the only plausible- Bring us Cheney.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: Bring us Liz. You get Cheney. You get Cheney. Did
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: I hear Speaker Gottheimer? Is it the Problem Solvers Caucus
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: Day to Rule? Pretty straightforward from here. Speaker Sinema.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Two co-speakers. Co-speakers.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: Speaker Lieberman. Come on. You know, there's nowhere in the
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: rule book that says a dog can't play basketball. Yeah,
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: so first of all, this is just a threat. But
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: even if it's not like, you just look at this,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: if the only plausible person who is Kevin McCarthy can't
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: be speaker, you do get to some pretty implausible people.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: We will see. But right now, this seems to be
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: something you're saying to remind the caucus that the alternative
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: to Kevin McCarthy isn't Jim Jordan. It's somebody that is...
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: palatable to a group of Democrats.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Some of the people floating being floated were like,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: like you said, Liz Cheney or Justin Amash or, you know,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: there's or some like more moderate Republican. But then again,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: you would need every single House Democrat to vote for
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: this Republican, plus the handful of Republican moderates in the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: House to get to 18.
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: Whatever number of whatever, well, whatever number of Republicans were
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: agreeing to go along with this deal. Right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: Plus whatever Democrats between you have a bunch of Democrats
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: standing up and saying, hi, I, a Democrat elected with
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Democratic votes in this district hereby would like to make.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: This retiring member Fred Upton.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: It's a tough it's tough in practice.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: It's tough in practice. I think it does seem like
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: these people will see what happens in the next couple
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: of weeks. It does seem like this group of Republicans
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: wants to embarrass Kevin McCarthy. There is little penalty for
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: making sure that McCarthy loses the first vote.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Like, what's that going to do? It's going to embarrass
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy. It's not going to hurt Republicans.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: Otherwise, everyone listening. Obviously, every single person listening to this
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: podcast remembers in great detail the moment John Boehner lost
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: his first vote. Don't you?
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Literally something I forgot about until these stories that
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: he did. And then I remembered it. So, yeah, you
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: could see that. Look, I could see a scenario where
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: just to get him. McCarthy loses, can't get to two 18.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And then like Steve Scalise ends up being the consensus
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: job for speaker just so that the, the never Kevin
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: movement can, uh, can get their guy.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, look, I, look, I don't, I don't presume
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: to understand the minds of the never Kevin.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Movement, but I don't think they understand their minds.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: Two points. They don't either, but two points about this one, uh,
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: regardless of who the person is, like, let's not, just
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: it's not just about personalities. It is about the structure here.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: And whoever this person is, they will be beholden to
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: Marjorie Taylor Greene and Paul Gosar. They will face the
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: same problem. They're all Kevin McCarthy. Whoever speaker of the
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: House will be Kevin McCarthy in some way or another.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: And then the question is, will these Republicans rather get
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: Kevin McCarthy's head or get some concessions? for relenting to him.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: And to me, it seems like that's, we don't know,
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: but that's the most likely direction we're heading in.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. So seven incoming House Republicans
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: who are still undecided. These are not the same people
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: as the Never Kevin movement.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: These are the Maybe Kevins.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: They're Maybe Kevins. So the seven Maybe Kevins just issued.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: Kevin, if you're nasty.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Just issued a series of demands to McCarthy. What are
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: some of them and what happens if he accepts them?
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: All right, here they are.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: They make it possible for any member to force a
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: vote on removing the speaker.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, put a pin in that one. We're coming back
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: to that one.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: That's what Mark Meadows did once to fuck with Boehner.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Require at least three days to review the final bill
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: texted for a vote. Yeah, we've tried that one before.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, great.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: What are you going to do, read it?
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: That'll fix it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: Bar Republican leaders and PACs from getting involved in primaries.
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: So basically trying to stop the party. from trying to
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: save the Republican primary voter from themselves, which they've been
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: trying to do. Basically, this is for Trumpy wackos. Give
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: the Freedom Caucus members more power on committees. Use the
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: debt ceiling as a hostage, which they want to do anyhow.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: And go ham on investigations of the Biden administration, basically,
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: which again, every Republican wants to do anyhow. So it
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: really is, the more positions on key committees, like the
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: Rules Committee and more chair jobs, is a big one.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: And the biggest one, which is basically a little ejector seat.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: For Kevin McCarthy.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Basically, this group of Republicans is saying to Kevin McCarthy,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: we'll let you be speaker, but we're going to have
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: your little gavel and a vice.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Well, and like, all the shit that McCarthy is doing.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Just going to roll by fast. You're going to roll
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: right past that, huh? I'm talking about Kevin's little gavel
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: and a vice.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I get the reference.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: Kevin's gavel and a vice.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: Episode title, perhaps. Olivia's nodding.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: I think... That demand and the debt ceiling demand are
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: the two most consequential demands. The first one means that
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: all the shit that Kevin McCarthy is doing right now
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: to get the votes that he needs, not saying anything
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: about Marjorie Taylor, all this bullshit, he's going to be
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: doing that in perpetuity if they can vacate him at
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: any moment.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: At any time, any member can call for a vote.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Anytime any member called for it. So like once he,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: he'll never really have the job.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: He'll never sleep again.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: He's always trying out for the job.
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: He'll never sleep again. It's no contract. It's no contract.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: It's data. It's week to week.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: He just cannot give into that. That I imagine there'll
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: be some compromise there where they can call a vote
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: to a motion to vacate, but like you're going to
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: need X percentage of the caucus to do so. You
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: just can't have any wacko in the caucus. I mean,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: if we'll see if they do, then the, The consensus
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: speaker thing could actually become a reality at some point.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: And then the no debt ceiling increase until they get
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: spent unless they get spending cuts in a balanced budget, quote, quote,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: balanced budget in 10 years. That's nuts. That's just setting
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: it up. I mean, I guess you could say he
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: agrees to that. There's a plan and then he backs down.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: Well, that's that's what well, I just think it's like
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: what like whatever that says, that's a policy pronouncement. If
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: he doesn't have the votes, he doesn't have the votes.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: He could put up their version of a debt ceiling. increase,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: which has all these cuts, it doesn't pass. And then
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: he says, it didn't pass. I did what you asked
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: me to do. Now I'm going to have to go
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: over to Hakeem Jeffries and get the votes together to
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: save the economy.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And then you know what happens if they get the
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: ejector seat button. Bring a Scalise.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: Kevin's through the sunroof. You get Scalise. Speaker Trump, pretty
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: straightforward from here.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: It is going to be chaos. That is the only
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: safe prediction that I have. It's going to be chaos.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: We talked about this a little bit with Senator Brian Schatz. later.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: And it's, you know, clearly, like, he is frustrated that
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: they don't have the votes to fix the debt ceiling
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: once and for all. But just remember how fucking stupid
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: it is that we that there aren't 51 Democratic votes
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: to get rid of the debt ceiling to take the
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: bullets out of this gun that the worst people in
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: Congress are using to threaten the eighth worst people in Congress.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And look, this is I mean, the way this
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: goes down, is there probably a majority in the house
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: in this new house to want to make sure that
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: we lift the debt ceiling and don't you and don't
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: hold the economy hostage for you know massive cut yeah
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: probably you like your don bacons and a couple other
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: moderate republicans but kevin mccarthy speaker whoever is the speaker
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is going to be in control here i mean it's
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: just going to be chaos let's talk about a huge
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: pain in the ass on the other side of the
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: aisle kirsten cinema who announced on Friday that she has
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: changed her party affiliation to independent right after I attempted
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: fate on Thursday's pod by saying that at least we
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: won't have to talk about Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: for the next two years. So much for that. Sinema
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: also said she won't caucus with the Republicans, which means
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: the Democrats will maintain their majority and control of all
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Senate committees. Why'd she do it, Lovett? Why'd she do it?
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: First of all, let's just... That's the most important point,
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: by the way.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: She will caucus with the Democrats... which means, but for
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: the fact that we know how much of a pain
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: in the ass she has been on policy, on paper,
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: she is doing what Angus King and Bernie Sanders are doing.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: It's just that she is doing it in a way
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: that will make it harder for us to pass our agenda.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: She did it because she can't win a primary in 2024.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: She has made herself toxic to too many Democratic voters
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: because of how she tried to stymie Joe Biden's agenda.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: So The options were face a brutal, brutal Democratic primary
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: she was probably going to lose or basically kind of
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: go full go full maverick in her mind, declare herself
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: an independent and basically do what she's doing anyway, which
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: is sometimes going along with Democrats, sometimes not claiming to
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: be an independent, claiming to want to work with both sides, whatever,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: kind of getting to build her brand. So it's just
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: sort of in a lot of ways, it's just sort
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: of putting the right name on the way she's been
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: behaving for the last couple of years anyway.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: I just think that's such a cynical view of the situation.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: You tell me what it is. I mean, she gave
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: a quote to CNN or Politico or wherever. She said,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I know this is probably disappointing to folks, but I'm
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: actually not even thinking about electoral politics or talking about
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that at all right now. I mean, she is so
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: full of shit. Here's the thing. She fancies herself the
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: next John McCain. If John McCain did something like this,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: you know what he'd probably say? I couldn't win a
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: primary election. So I couldn't win a primary, so I'm
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: doing this for, you know, it's like, you might not
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: like it, but I'm just going to tell you, she
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: is so full of shit. Yes. She's so full of shit.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, right. She has a horrible approval rating among Democrats.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: She's underwater by a lot. She's at like 34, 35%
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: among Democrats, has been for a year now. She's got
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: like a decent approval rating among independents and Republicans in Arizona.
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Overall, her favorability rating is still slightly underwater. So it's
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: not like she's very popular in the state. It really is.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: It's not even like it's the best. It's the only
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: option she has, really, because I think that she would
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: start as a significant underdog in a primary.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she just went from the underdog in her own
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: primary to putting herself in a position to dare Democrats
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: to risk the seat to challenge her.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that risk. How difficult... do you think
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: it will be for a Democrat to win Senate in 2024?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: I do think you.
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: Should just, a lot does depend on how she votes
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: and acts.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Behaves.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Behaves over the, like what she does over the next
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: two years, like just where she decides to draw her
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: dumb lines in the sand. You know, the last time
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: it was about taxing hedge funds and corporations. So like,
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: who knows what positions she takes that are kind of
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: anathema to Democrats. So it really does depend on what
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: she does over the next two years and what she
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: stands in the way of. But, if the status quo
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: anti is what it is, then it's really, really hard
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: because any Democrat that runs against somebody who votes for
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: Democratic judges and voted for the Inflation Reduction Act and
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: voted for a host of really important Democratic priorities is
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: going to be someone who splits the anti-MAGA vote. And
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: it's a very difficult position for the Democratic Party to
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: be in. That said, you do see Democrats saying, great,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: now the primary is open, you know, which is a
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: little bit of a bluff, but it's very, very hard.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: And the reason why it's so difficult is because of
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Arizona's electorate. So these are the voter registration statistics as
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: of November of 22 is from the Secretary of State website.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Thirty five percent of voters identify as Republican or registered
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: as Republican. Thirty one percent are registered as Democrats and
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: 34 percent are registered as other. So, you know, I
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: saw some people saying, oh, well, if all Democrats stuck
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: together in Arizona, if all Democratic voters stuck together and
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: voted for the Democratic candidate, like would be OK. Not
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: true at all. You'd need a significant number of the
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: non-affiliated voters, independent voters. You probably need some Republicans. That's
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: certainly Mark Kelly just won the seat with nine, 10
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: percent of Republicans. And he won independence by like I
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: think was like 55 to 40 significant margins. So you
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: need those independent Republican voters. Now, does that mean a
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Democrat like a Mark Kelly or someone like that couldn't
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: capture a significant number of independents and Republicans? No, but
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: you're right. She splits the vote a little bit if
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: it's two of them going for that, because Republican voters
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: in Arizona and by the way, the Republican Party in
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Arizona continues to nominate the most extreme candidates. It's not
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: like they're nominating Doug Ducey anymore.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And they would. And if we are heading towards
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: a Democrat versus Kyrsten Sinema versus Republican, you'll be damn
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: sure they're going to nominate whoever the fuck they want,
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: because they'll be pretty sure that person is going to
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: be a senator.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And like, you know, Carrie Lake got something like ninety one,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: ninety two percent of Republican voters. Blake Masters, like probably
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: the least popular candidate in Arizona in a long, long time.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: He'd be a senator.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: He got like eighty nine, ninety percent of Republicans.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: He would in this he would he would have won.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: So if you get some of the Republican candidate getting 89,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: 90 percent of the Republican vote and then you have
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: two other candidates splitting Democrat and independent vote, that's really tough.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: It's really tough. And the numbers I just said were
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: the voter registration statistics in the midterm in terms of
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: who came out to vote in 2022. The midterms in
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Arizona were 27 percent Democratic, 33 percent Republican and 40
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: percent independent. That is.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: And by the way, like. let's not talk about this
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: as if the Democrats are spoiler in that scenario. The
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: spoiler is a person named Kirsten cinema.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: And as we've seen, no one is a better team
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: player than Kirsten cinema. Imagine all of us sitting around
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: the table trying to figure out how to convince Kirsten
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: cinema to drop out of the race because she's drawing
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: 13% against Ruben Gallego.
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: And costing us the Senate seat. Like there is some
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: like ugly fucking terrible outcomes. And that's why it's a.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Very, very frustrating.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: It was a very frustrating weekend.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: And look, I don't, I mean, Ruben Gallegos out there
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: saying what I think he should be saying, which is like,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to make my decision based on her
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: threat or her bluff or whatever the hell she's trying
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: to do. I'm going to make it based on what
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I think is right. It's also interesting. that he is
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: already focusing in his statements and the Arizona Democrats did
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: this as well. They're focusing their statements, like not on
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: her betraying the party for Republicans or for whatever, but
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: her betraying the people who elected her by, you know,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: voting with wealthy donors, right? She helped a killed, carried
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: interest for the hedge fund. assholes. She made the prescription
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: drug provision weaker for the drug companies, right?
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: Because as much as we are frustrated by her kind
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: of bullshit rhetoric around, I'll work with anybody. And, you know,
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: I'm just looking out for whatever. I don't believe in
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: either part. A good idea can come from anywhere. All
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: the stuff people say, it's a really good message. It
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: really appeals to people. I'll work with anybody. We got
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: to turn down the temperature. I'm independent. I do what's
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: best for Arizona. Like these things do well.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just annoying because it's all vibes, right?
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: It's all vibes.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: She came out and said, look, here's three issues where
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I just am totally different from my party. Just don't
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: believe them. And then here's the issues where I align
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: with the Republicans. Here's where I align with the Democrats.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And I just, I have no, it was not about issues.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: It was no substance in any of her announcement. It
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: was all just vibes. It's all vibes.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: And by the way, like the way in which she
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: like stood in the way of Build Back Better was
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: around like a, like a, a few tax issues, which
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: are extremely unpopular.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: It's rich people shit.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: Like just her refusal to raise taxes on the biggest
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: corporations and the richest people in her state. Like she
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: took extremely unpopular position positions, especially unpopular with independents to
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: stymie some of the democratic proposals.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: But again, next two years, she's still going to be
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the same pain in the ass she was for the
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: last two years.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: At least when in terms of governing, we'll, you know,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: we'll figure it out when we get to 2024.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: But hey, at least listen, we still increased our majority
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: by one.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: So now we don't need both Manchin and Sinema every time.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, in terms of how she'll behave
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: over the next two years and how she'll vote, the
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: other issue here is like there's not going to be
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: a ton of legislation over the next two years. It's
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: going to be confirming judges and administration officials. That's going
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: to be mainly. And then whatever happens with the debt ceiling.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: And whatever happens.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Whatever happens with the debt ceiling. Who knows? Who knows?
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: All right. We will talk about the debt ceiling and
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: more with our next guest, Senator Brian Schatz, right after this.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: On the pod today, Hawaii Senator Brian Schatz. Welcome back
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: to the pod.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Great to be here. Nice to see you both.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: Schatz. Schatz.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Schatz.
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: You said we were going to do it.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I thought someone was going to do it.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: We have a whole staff. We're going to play that song.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Can't you do that in post, as they say?
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: We know what we can do that in post. Thanks
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: for letting us know that. We run a podcast company.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: We'll do it in post. All right.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: There's a lot on Congress's plate between now and the
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: end of the year. Not much time. What are you
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: pushing hardest to get done? What can you live without?
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Well, let me start with, I mean, look, we.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: Need an omnibus spending package because, you know, I don't
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: want to immediately jump into Kevin McCarthy's travails, but he's
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: going to have a tremendously difficult time passing any budget.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: So whatever budget we pass is likely to be the
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: budget for the next two years. And so while we
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: still have a democratic control of both chambers, it's really
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: important to move forward with an omnibus spending package in
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: the next two weeks. And then for me, I'm working
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: on making sure that a number of bills for Indian tribes,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Alaska Natives and Native Hawaiians pass as part of that package.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Is the Electoral Count Reform Act going to get done?
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: But we're sort of like it all depends on whether
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: or not we have a big bill. If we don't
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: have a big bill, then none of these other things
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: are going to pass. And I like the Electoral Count Act.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: And I've sort of had some internal disagreements with some
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: of my colleagues about it because it's good.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: It's fine.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: But you can't outlaw insurrection. Insurrection is already illegal. And
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: so I really do worry that, especially for Republicans, but
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: even Democrats, they want to sort, you know, when all
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: you have is a hammer, everything feels like a nail,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: everything looks like a nail. And so I do feel
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: like everyone's thinking, wow, that was really terrible. We should
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: make a law against it. And my own view is
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: that they're going to have better white shoe law firms.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: They're going to be very clever about it. And there is,
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: I don't know how successful they will be, and I
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: don't know how big the movement will be, but the
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: people who want to overthrow the government are going to
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: try to do it in a way that has the
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: veneer of lawfulness. So the Electoral Count Act doesn't really
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: push back against that. So let's get that done, but
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: let's stay vigilant because insurrectionists are going to do what
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: they're going to do.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, that's something we've talked about on
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: this pod a fair amount, which is, yeah, pass the
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: laws to do what you can to strengthen the system,
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: but understand that this is about power. Like when you
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: say stay vigilant- you know, they will bend the laws
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: however they wish. They've already been doing that, right? They already,
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, the fact that even we're having this conversation
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: is because they made up something about what the vice
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: president can do. What does staying vigilant mean to you?
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I just think that, I mean, first of all,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: I think it was the most important thing that happened
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: was in the midterm elections when election denialism, insurrectionism proved
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: to be unpopular, right? Because there's no amount of shaming
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: of the other side that actually is going to do
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: the trick. What they have to figure out is that
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: this is a loser, And it's proven to be a
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: loser for them. And so that, to me, was the
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: most important thing. But to the extent that anybody puts
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: their name on the ballot in 2024 for the U.S. Senate,
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: for Secretary of State, for the legislature or for president,
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: that should be immediately disqualifying and not.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Just like one of the considerations. Right.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: It is the one thing you can't do is vote
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: for someone who says, well, if I don't win, then
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: it's probably rigged and we're going to have to take
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: other measures. That's not OK either. And we have to
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: stay vigilant on that level. And I think there's just
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: a lot of people on Twitter who like to sort
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: of scold people who worry about democracy because it allows
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: them to feel like they're clever and they're really in
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: touch with what people really think. But I think that
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: proved to be bullshit. People actually care about insurrectionism. They
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: don't want American-style democracy to be destroyed, whatever their view
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: is of tax.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Rates or whatever.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Do you think Republicans have... learned any lessons from their
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: losses in this midterm from the fact that election denialism
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: was a loser we got you know trump's dining with
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the nazi uh and you know a lot of your
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: republican colleagues in the senate you know there was some
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: uh there was some chiding of him but there wasn't
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: any like like no one was ruling out uh voting
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: for him or supporting him for president except i think
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: mitt romney we have marjorie taylor green over the weekend
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: saying like if me and steve bannon had planned the
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: insurrection and it would have been successful. Now we're going
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: to have another round of Republicans trying to dodge these
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: questions from reporters. Do they learn any lessons? Have you
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: seen this, at least from your perspective with your colleagues?
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be cautious not to characterize it as
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: people learning lessons, right? But I will say that increasingly
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: some of my Republican colleagues just feel like Donald Trump
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: is not good for them and they're not afraid to
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: say it. And that is a directional change from everything
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: I've seen before. They feel that they can win a
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: primary as incumbent United States senators and still be considered
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: conservatives in good standing and just sort of observe that, hey,
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: we've kind of gotten our ass kicked over the last
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: several cycles and maybe it's time to move on. So
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: I don't know if it's like internalizing a lesson so
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: much as reading how the public responded. And that's where
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: I think the activism is, And the success of the
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: midterms can't be overstated because it was the voters that
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: sent the right message to the Republicans who want to
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: stay in office that this isn't good for business anymore.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: So let's talk about Democrats for a second. You mentioned
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: the omnibus. You didn't mention the debt ceiling. Have Manchin
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: and Sinema just made that impossible? Well, former Democrats. Has
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Manchin and Sinema made that impossible? What's happening with the
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: debt ceilings?
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's necessarily Manchin and Sinema, and I'm
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: not giving up. I have a bill.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: There's lots of clever ways to do this where you
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: sort of make it subject to congressional disapproval. And my
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: bill is even simpler than that. It just repeals the
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: goddamn thing.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: It's stupid and is dangerous to the country. But if
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I had to guess, I don't think we're getting.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: 60 votes on an omnibus bill that includes the repeal
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: of the debt ceiling or even some sort of more
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: convoluted way to land there. So I'm going to keep pushing,
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: but you know, I think it's important that your listeners
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: hear what's actually happening and not just what we wish
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: would happen. And over the next two weeks, likelihood of
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: getting debt ceiling into a bill is, you know, not zero,
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: but not super high. We have kind of high degree
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: of difficulty over the next two to three weeks just
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: to get our work done. And yes, it is true
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: that this leaves a ticking time bomb, you know, for
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: next summer, fiscally and for the country. So I'm not
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: happy about that, but that is.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: The state of play.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: But this is what I can't understand is like what
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: obviously you could attach it to a budget reconciliation bill.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I realize that takes a lot of time and is
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: very complicated. But I felt like I feel like if
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: every Senate Democrat felt like you, that we have this
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: ticking time bomb, that now we're going to trust Kevin
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: McCarthy and his gang of yahoos to diffuse next year.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: We might as well like figure out how to do
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: this now while we still can, if we could do
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: it with 51 votes. Yeah.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I, so, so I haven't done the whip
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: count on what would, what would happen in reconciliation. I
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: will say reconciliation takes two weeks and we have to
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: get an omnibus and a defense bill done in the
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: next two weeks. So like logistically it's going to be hard,
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: but I guess my, my view is we, we should
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: be very clear eyed about the consequences of, not fulfilling
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: our obligations, not standing by the full faith and credit
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: of the United States. But we should not run around
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: scared of the Republicans on the debt ceiling. My view
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: on debt ceiling since I got to the Senate now
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: just over 10 years ago is in exchange for lifting
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: the debt.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Limit, you get nothing.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: And I think you guys learned, and not to bring
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: up old shit, but you guys learned that what you
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: ended up with when you negotiated over the debt ceiling
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: was something called sequestration, which were these stupid, draconian, mindless
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: cuts to domestic discretionary spending. And everybody hated it until
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: we finally repealed it. And so after that, Obama and
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: then even Trump and certainly Schumer and Pelosi and now
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Biden ought to have the view that you get nothing
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: for lifting the debt ceiling. That's what you get. And
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: you can make all the noise you want and all
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: of the politicos and the axios and the hills and
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: the Washington Post will come to me and put a
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: microphone in my face and say, hey, but aren't you
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: scared about the global economy?
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: And I will say, yes, but I am more scared.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: I am more.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Scared of allowing these people to do this to us
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: episodically whenever they want to extract crazy concessions And hold
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: the whole country hostage. And the last, I guess, probably
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: six times that we've gone through this and our position
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: has been, you get nothing for this. They have gotten
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: nothing for this. It's always very scary. And it's like
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: making my palms sweat just thinking about it.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: But they've gotten nothing.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: But yeah, but you're already pitching. So look, what just
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: happened to me at this table is you just pitched forward.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: You just moved on to the conversation we're going to
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: have when we don't do it right now. You're just
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: already having that conversation. We're on to the next thing.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: So you just think we're going to have another situation
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: where the Republicans are going to put a gun to
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: their own head and threaten to shoot. That's what's happening
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: next year.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: I think that's going to happen like every six weeks.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not it's not great. But I get what
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I get. I get you get nothing is that. Yeah,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I know why that needs to be the position, because otherwise.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: They don't have the votes.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: I know, but I know they don't have the votes,
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: but like there are, we have a majority. They, they just,
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: do they not hear this argument? What is the argument
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: you're hearing back about why not to do this right now?
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: They're afraid of the ads in two years. Like, I
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: don't understand. There is a, it is a, it is
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: so fucking stupid. Why aren't we fixing this? Why, why
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: aren't there 50 votes to fix this?
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: Um, I can't tell you why there aren't 50 votes.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: I'm just in the business of counting and I don't
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: think we have the votes.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: To do that right now.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Kirsten Sinema, how are you feeling about the party switch?
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: You know, neutral, right?
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: Like I think Murph said it exactly right the other day,
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: which is like not that much changes. She has been
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: very explicit that she's not going to interfere with the
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: subpoena authority or the ability for the majority to be
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: the majority, right? We're not going to be in the
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: old power sharing arrangement as if it were 50-50. And
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: my view is like Kirsten votes how she wants to vote.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: She behaves how she wants to behave. And that's not
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: going to change very much because- All this does is
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: commemorates her actual political position, which is that she leans
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: left on some issues and right on some issues, and
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: she keeps her own counsel and sometimes works with us
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: and sometimes doesn't.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: You think the DSCC should recruit a candidate for Arizona
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: in 2024?
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Listen, oh, wow, that was a hard one.
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: We talked about it beforehand. We tried to come up
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: with the hardest one.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: Look, I think the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee has an
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: obligation to elect Democrats. But it is a little different
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: when you're talking about, say, Angus King, who's an independent
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: who caucuses with the Democrats. You know, we don't support
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: a Democrat to run against Angus King. So I think
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: part of what has to happen over the next six
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: to 12 months is to figure out where Kirsten's head
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: is at, where the Democratic Party of Arizona's head is at,
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: and sort of have a, you know, a respectful... discussion
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: and negotiation. That's above my pay grade, but you know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: I get along very well with Kirsten, believe it or not.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: We've worked together on a number of things. And so,
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm hoping this lands well.
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: Everybody's being so nice.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah. What else are you going to do?
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, on Twitter. You have a new
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: gig as Deputy Conference Secretary. What's that all about?
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it just, look, I think Chuck Schumer
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: is And I have had conversations over the last two
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: or three weeks about how I can just be more helpful.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: And really what that means is I'm in the sort
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: of official leadership, which has a Monday meeting where they
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: kind of set the course for.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: The week.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: My buddy back home who's not in politics texted me
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: and said, what does this mean? I said, think of
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: me as a very low ranking person in the room
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: where it happens. Last year, as chief deputy whip, I
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: was like junior varsity leadership, and now I'm on the VARs,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: but not a starter.
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: Do you think it's going to be a problem culturally
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: that you don't remember the Bay of Pigs?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Like personally? Yeah.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: You don't remember unfolding and being like, I hope it works.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Just so we're clear, Cory Booker is in the leadership.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: Yes, yes. You and Cory Booker, neither one. I'm not
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: claiming that Cory Booker remembers the Bay of Pigs.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Here's a policy question. You're one of the biggest climate
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: hawks in Congress. What do you make of this news
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: that the Department of Energy plans to announce that they've
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: made a fusion energy breakthrough that could create zero carbon power?
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a huge deal. It's a big technological breakthrough.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: But remember, there are a lot of ready-to-go technologies. And
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: the question is deployment. This is a big technical breakthrough.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: It's unclear what it will mean for energy markets over
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: the next 10 to 20 years. And I do worry
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: that just because climate change is so terrifying— that there's
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: a little bit of moral hazard of kind of like,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: you know, hitching your wagon to whatever the latest technological
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: breakthrough is and say, well, great. That way we don't
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: have to make any of the investments or transitions that
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: we were fearing. And there's this new magical energy source.
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: The truth is there's an old magical energy source called
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: the sun.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: And we.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: Still have wind energy, both of which are now coming
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: in cheaper than coal. And in some instances, natural gas.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: So I just want us to, be excited about this
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: technological development, but understand that there's no silver bullet on
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: the climate side. There's just a lot of things that
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: we have to do at once. And this is one
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: of the incredible opportunities in front of us. We should
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: think of it that way, but as a part of
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: a strategy, not as something that obviates the need to.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Take other actions.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Makes sense. Here's something I know you might have some
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: thoughts on. It's a New York Times headline. Critics say
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Musk has revealed himself as a conservative. It's not so simple.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, look, first of all, lots of CEOs, most
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: CEOs are conservative. So that doesn't bother me on its face.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: And I'm not going to get into the platform itself,
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: but I just do think really smart people who work
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: for The New York Times are intentionally obtuse, are intentionally
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: hazy and gauzy with their language. And I know Lovett's
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: talked about this for a long time, that somehow that
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: is sort of a substitute for being actually savvy or
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: real analysis that their favorite thing to say is, well,
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: it's not quite as simple as all those people on
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: the internet say. And it's sort of like, you have
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: to work so goddamn hard to read all these tweets
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: and look at all this behavior and think, well, it's
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: really impossible to decipher his politics. And like I said,
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: I don't really care about this, except that you still
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: have the most powerful media platform, mainstream media platform on
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: the planet. being intentionally dumb about things. And that's a
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: little maddening, especially given its history and our history over
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: the last seven years.
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: It's pretty frustrating because Elon Musk has now tweeted like,
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: prosecute Fauci, vote DeSantis, vote Republicans, the woke virus, destroy humanity.
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: And it's like, but what does it mean? Speaking of Twitter,
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: reports that basically the White House's view on Twitter is
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: that it really just has kind of two functions. One
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: is to influence elite opinion and elite journalists. And the
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: other is to convince progressives on Twitter to bully those people.
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: Two important and valuable uses in our society. And so
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: they're not seeing, they're not kind of, they're not hooked
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: onto the Elon is a national emergency train. Where are
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: you at on this?
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's a national emergency.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: I think there are, there are, You know, for instance,
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: Ro Khanna's email. I got asked by a reporter, what
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: do you think about Ro Khanna's email being disclosed? And
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: I thought, well, look, if a congressman is emailing a company,
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: that congressman does not actually have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: I think the threshold with Rubicon would be crossed if
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: a member's DMs were disclosed.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: And those were not to the company, right?
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: But an official correspondence from a member of Congress to
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: a company is like, to me, that's reasonably fair game.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Question becomes when Musk feels under siege, does he then
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: weaponize the data that he's in possession of? I don't
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: know the answer to that, but I want to be very,
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: very precise with our language because in case that ever
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: does happen, I don't want to have cried wolf just
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: because a congressman wrote a letter to a company. I mean,
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: if I write a letter to a company, I fully
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: expect that that's going to be public communications.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: But you're sticking around on Twitter still. You're staying.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not trying to advertise for the platform, but
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: my own personal user experience has not changed hardly at all,
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: except that the main topic on.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Twitter seems to be its owner, which is a little bit.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: of a bummer, but something that I feel like over
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: time will work itself out.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: It is brutal.
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: Are you not tooting on Mastodon?
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: By the way, I'm too stupid to figure out Mastodon.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: That's how I feel.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to do this.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to do that.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: People talked about post, but I'm just like, I'm lazy
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: to set up myself on another platform.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: That's how I feel.
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: What do you think when an office has massive Christmas decorations,
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: including a huge tree, and then there's just like one tiny,
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: shitty little menorah off to the side?
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: I think it's anti-Semitic. I do.
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I should say at this point that in our office,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: there is a menorah that is so large. There's like
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: a machine that's like keeping it inflated. Yeah, that makes
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: noise down the hall. So it's very, we have a
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: very large.
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: So now John's worried about a big Jewish machine. Interesting. Interesting. See,
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: this is how it happens.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: I just wanted everyone to be clear that that's not
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: our office.
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: You don't need a Balenciaga jacket and a ski mask.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: To be part of the problem.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: I did not see that coming, John.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Last question. I saw on, uh, speaking of Twitter, I
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: saw on Twitter, uh, you, you tweeted that you're going
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: to look into these fucking scam texts that we all
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: keep getting. Are you, are you looking into this?
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: What's going on there?
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: Actually, I tweeted it and then I was just like,
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: I didn't text my legislative staff to see who would
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: follow up, who reads my tweets and makes the things
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: that I tweet true. I did get a couple of
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: texts from my staff, but apparently the FCC actually has
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: already started the rulemaking process on sound text. So I'm
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: going to follow up with Jessica Rosenworcel, who's the chair
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: of the FCC, who is only there because we have
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: a Democratic Senate and who is working on a rule
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: to crack down on these things.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: That is fantastic. That might be one of the most
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: popular things the government does in a while. Yeah, it's great.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Brian Schatz, it's wonderful as always to have you on
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Great to see you guys. Thanks for the time.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Happy Hanukkah.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: And we're saying Merry Christmas again.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Take care.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: See you guys.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Brian Schatz for joining us today. And we'll
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: talk to you later.
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: Thanks, Senator Schatz. Schatz, Schatz, Schatz.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: This is where we play it.
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, play it right now. Should I tell the people
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: that I'm getting rid of my Tesla? I can't do
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: it anymore.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz,
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: slash podsaveamerica.