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Beyond Words - Yasmine Sherif · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Yasmin Sharif, the Executive Director of Education Can't Wait, the United Nations Global Fund for Education in Emergencies and Protractive Crisis, is spearheading a global movement that delivers education to those left furthest behind in crisis settings.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Putting foundational learning outcomes such as literacy at the centre of their mission.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: As a global advocate for the right to education, a thought leader in her sector, and global advocate, Mr.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Reef is regularly featured in the media.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: She's the author of the book The Case for Humanity, an extraordinary session.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2020, she was awarded the Global Educator Award in the US.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2022, she received on behalf of Education Can't Wait the prestigious Mother Teresa Award.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: When ECW was launched in 2016, 75 million children and youth did not have access to the safety, protection, hope, and opportunity of an education due to crises worldwide.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: That number has spiked to well over 222 million, according to a new study released by the ECW last year.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: With COVID-19, the crisis in Ukraine, rising in climate change-related displacement, and other wars and conflicts raging across the globe, this number is expected to continue to rise.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm honoured and thrilled to welcome Yasmin to the Beyond Words podcast.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: All the way from New York.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, we're in sunny Australia, sunny today.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what I find fascinating is first of all, I know you're you operate at the very infrastructure of what needs to be done, but you also work at the coal face of humanity where challenges are often dire and extreme.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do you triage your priorities?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have so many when I look at what's on your slate.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, there are more than 222 million children and adolescents who do not access a quality education around the globe, but we prioritize the children and adolescents who are in um situations of armed conflict, climate-induced disasters, or forced displacement that includes refugees.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And within them, uh those who are left furthest behind, and that's often the girls, children with um disabilities, and um communities that are um ostracized or marginalized in one another way, but it it's it's very hard to prioritize amongst those who are left furthest behind because they are already in the darkest parts of the globe under the most difficult circumstances, so you try to do as many as you can as much as you have funding to cater to them.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so is there a particular process that you have of putting those into certain priorities because there are so many?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how do you even begin?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a massive task.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, we don't see the New York and the torment who was the most vulnerable.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I have spent many years myself working in war-torn countries with refugees and active armed conflict, and there's nothing worse than someone sitting in faraway land prioritizing for you.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we uh we left and we are guided by our colleagues on the ground who works in the United Nations or in civil society and the ministers of education, and they have a process in country to do needs assessment, and uh then they determine who are the most at risk or have the least capacities to attend uh possibilities to attend a school, and then we zoom in on them.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, if you have more funding available, we could take everyone.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very hard to choose between who suffers more and who's not gonna be able to do that.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: What I think is interesting about what you say is first of all, you have to negotiate and navigate the political sphere in order to get into certain countries.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're faced with dealing with often maybe reticent governments, conflict situations, that that is challenging.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are some of the strategies around that?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming that it involves a lot of mediation and good communication, which I have no doubt you're very skilled at.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, first of all, because we are part of the United Nations system, um, we are hosted by the UNICEF, but we we serve the entire UN system and semi-society organizations.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when you are a part of the UN, you have access to these countries um as an international civil servant, and that's that's coordinated with our UN colleagues in the country and us.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that gives us an advantage.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then you come into these countries and um you often have to deal with countries that are sort of carved up, um, some controlled by militia groups, warring parties, and again, we rely very much on our colleagues who are working here day in, day out, who have built those relationships, and um who ensures that we get access, and and that allows us or them to travel to those areas.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: The most important is that we can reach those children.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Take a country like Central African Republic, where you have multiple militia groups, and we are able to reach children in those territories thanks to the access established by our colleagues who work in the country.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of that.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, I I went out, I led the first Order Women mission to Afghanistan in 21 after the Taliban.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um, then it was my job as the leader of the mission to speak to the Taliban.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and because the UN allowed us to speak on an informal basis with them, I I went and met with them to discuss the right for us to have education.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, you negotiate, you you often get access.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: The question is, can you get the message through?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the moral challenge.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not always decided by one or two persons, it's it's the policy and is putting it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that you just, you know, that vision of you um having to negotiate with Taliban male members who were who are basically quite clear that women shouldn't have education.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I saw um I saw some footage yesterday coming out where all the schoolgirls were basically being, it would appear, being poisoned in their classrooms in Iran.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was actually the most terrifying footage, these young girls literally coming out unable to breathe.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there was some indication, unproven yet, but certainly there would be a strong sense that they were being poisoned by some something in the air because they were trying to just be at school.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just extraordinary what some of these regimes are doing.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so for you to have the courage to go in and negotiate or talk to some of these quite ferocious and reticent leaders, how do you find the courage?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think things are getting better?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly in that situation, it's getting worse.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um in Iran specifically, we we don't have any investments there because it's not at war.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but in Afghanistan, um, speaking with the Taliban leadership.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have worked in Afghanistan in the early 90s.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I know the country very well.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I did have worked.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: I did work in many many war situations.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's when you get your training to be able to speak to a broad um array of different partners and not always government partners, because if you don't do that, you won't be able to help those in SAR.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you develop those thick skills, I would say, there but so for me, meeting with the Taliban did not scare me in any way.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I am comfortable in Afghanistan.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was there when I was in my twenties working.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But the tragedy is that even if those ideas begin to agree with that, the S God should have a right to change.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're not always the ones that make the decisions.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Decisions are made elsewhere.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe most religious leaders, not political leaders, nor technical leaders.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So all you can do then is to keep advocating and keep being persistent.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean human rights lawyer by training, and you know, with a UN chart in your hand, human rights background, and you need to be human rights lawyer, but anyone working in the UN step down on fundamental human rights.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Education is one of one of the most important ones because education is a key handlock in all other rights.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Without literacy skills, without going to school, it's very difficult to claim the remaining spectrum of your human rights.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to have a strong moral condition and then you stand firmly by that.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and then you find ways of getting that message across.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I can say in Afghanistan, although many closed house schools have closed down, we work with local organizations and nationalizations who have negotiated access in certain provinces and districts, still delivering education to global.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting because how is that so is that under the radar, or is that something that so I'm I'm not clear how did they?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously it's politically, you've got you have to be cautious.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: But what I find first of all, it do you find it extraordinary that in this day and age there are still so many countries willing to prevent education because they see that as such a tool of power, which it actually is.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is it still mind-blowing for you?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You've been doing this for 30 years in various forms.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, education for girls.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Afghanistan is the only country on earth that does not permit girls to attend secondary school and social education.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an absolutely exceptional divorce from basic human rights in this country.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's unacceptable.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Unacceptable.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the whole world is done by that.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the ethics and balance that are coming out is knowing the source may not become from a place of educated people or an educated person or an educated leader.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are several Taliban members who are educated and wanted authors to go to school, but they're not necessarily the ones that make decisions.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it's absolutely outrageous.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now I think you said something very important, and that is that education is a way of controlling power.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you have an educated population, you will have critical thinking.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: You have access to communication means access to communicate around the globe, think critically, form your own opinions.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's very dangerous for the current systems and dictatorships.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but does it mean that we should stop advocating for it?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: On the contrary, we have to put in more forces, more resistance towards it.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: We never succumb to violations of human rights, but there are different ways of communicating.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as a you know, as a human rights lawyer, you've got many tools at your disposal to navigate this, as you mentioned.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: How important is it understanding the legal complexities in your workspace?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, whether it's on the ground, dealing with local government or local council, or because a lot of it is waiting, as you said, through the bureaucracy.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And while United Nations, obviously you're part of that support system, at the end of the day, when you're dealing, as you said, whether it's the Taliban or whoever, do you find that understanding, and obviously their legal systems differ, clearly, in some form, but has that been an important tool for you?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, not really.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wondered that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, everyone gets their law degree, and you know, I'm I'm family members of a law, but I'm interested.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have to be frank with you, I have learned more uh about human rights working in crisis context and seeing the suffering than I ever learned in uh in an assembly wall at university.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: There are moral dimensions, ethical dimensions, human dimensions.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many dimensions.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can't walk around with a law book and say, there's a law.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it that's not how you communicate with people who may not know what the constitution is, who may not know about human rights.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a lack of awareness, and it's not a legal work, it's it's more of a practical work.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't operate as a lawyer when I work.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can never really do when I work in very very exceptional situations.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: But human rights is are so easily easy to grasp and understand.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be a lawyer.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: You have a better right to an education.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: That that is it's it's so fundamental.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean you don't need to be legal-minded for that, you just need to be a human being.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and what I have seen is also that as you said, the the deprivation or oppression of human rights, such as education, is it's either because it takes institutions to control the population, but it's also very much because it's not if you speak about some of the poorest countries on the globe, you speak about the Sahel, for instance, the King of Fans or Mali, Nigeria.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: These are very poor countries, and they're also there are a lot of internal strife and conflict across the region.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when they do the national budget, they say, okay, let's put it into the midfire because we have to fight the terrorists, we put into security, we put it in, and there's no money left from the education, yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, you've been dealing with so many things.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to protect the country.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think Nigeria, we have Uharam, which is a terrorist group that is trying to close down schools for girls, not Latin schools.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And where's that?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Nigeria, in Nigeria, here you have sub-Saharan Africa, and the the government there have to be forced to fight the incursions of the terrorist groups that are trying to close the schools for girls, and at the same time, they have to, you know, have a national budget that allows for education.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there are so many complex dynamics there, and that's why international aid is so very important in this situation.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's only so much funding available in the national budget, and so much, so you know, we have to share.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: We do not we all have need to share with those who don't have, and and that's why education can only wait.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our role is to catalyze and attract a lot of financial resources in the international aid budget that are meant to go out internationally, and shift the priorities towards education.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you invest in education for refugees for these countries, um, we can bring peace, we can bring an educated generation as engineers, doctors, teachers, nurses, and we can prevent another collapse into conflict or support peace building and definitely giving up to all these millions of young children who have nothing else but war and conflict around them.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what you're really talking about is all the collateral damage that happens over generations when there's a war-torn crisis or there's there's conflict.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're really saying that it's it even if the conflict stops, you've got all this collateral damage of people who are not educated and haven't got the resources to recover.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really common in most war-torn situations.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that the ECW has raised so much funding recently, and you've been spearheading that, what you I mean, the figures are really quite staggering.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I look at this, um, and I mentioned this in in the intro, but$1.5 billion, you know, that you've raised your organization, and you've reached more than 7 million crisis-affected children, um, that is an extraordinary feat.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see as the pivotal reason or way that you've accessed those funds?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because clearly people are very supportive and countries are jumping on board because they see the vision.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think first of all, there is a very strong education community.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that they they have come together over the years and they run it together to create education and outwait, because education in emergencies and pro-tracted crisis was actually underfunded in humanitarian responses.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when there were investments in education, it would be in countries that were developing countries without conflict, or if you had a humanitarian situation, the allocations would go to the course these are very important commodities.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you're not empowering children and young people to throw water and food alone, it has to be a pathway for them.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And because context prices are not improved.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Take Afghanistan, that's been going on today since the late um 70s.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um take the Democratic Republic of the Congo since the 60s.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a refugee today is the average time that they are refugees in 17 years.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: 17 years.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why the title is education cannot wait.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: They cannot wait until peace has arrived, they cannot wait until everyone has returned home.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: They need education during 17 years, 20 years, 30 years, or else we have generations that loops out, and we are always supplying them with the most uh you know, water, tents, and food.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: They need it, but that is not going to empower them and build their future.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not sustainable moving forward.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they end up, as we just mentioned, with with a legacy, actually, that is if they're not educated, and that carries through to the next generation.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a very important role.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think they're making are we getting traction?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like this is starting to be effective in certain countries, obviously?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, first of all, I mean, at the global level, we are seeing more and more investments in education.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that does contribute to education cannot waste uh resource mobilization.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we saw last year the UN Secretary General convened that the Transformative Education Summit is the first one ever in the UN history, which is a great kind of uh the United Nations uh placing education uh at the center of as you know an investment that can help us achieve all sustainable development goals and the and the objectives of the UN charter.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that that has been tremendous.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we see we also see uh many of our countries, our top um contributing um strategic dominant partners being Germany, the UK, the United States, Norway, uh, Denmark, um, and many more.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: We have 24 strategic dominant partners.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Liebo is one of the private sector partners, Portugal is another one.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that they are coming in so strongly and um scaling up the resources uh through education shows that there is a um there is a commitment out there.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um then, of course, we are faced with COVID-19, we are faced with uh the war in Ukraine.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Ukraine, yeah.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and how is tell tell me how that's impacted the the edge the education trajectory?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: How how are those two?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously the pandemic would have been quite challenging because trying to maintain those missions through that time.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, for COVID-19, what we did at Education Cannot Wait, is because everything we do, we do we don't look at patience as a virtue.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we are very impatient in the sense that we cannot wait.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we will not be convinced otherwise during COVID-19.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: We actually um we took our vaccinations, we followed the protocol for COVID-19, but we traveled to these countries to show solidarity with them and continuously investing in them.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't stay at home waiting for COVID 19, and the same goes for any conflict, we go straight into the fire.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for Ukraine, we have also made big investments in Ukraine, of course, more resources are needed.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: We are doing a multi-year investment there.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: We traveled to Moldova, we have both to Ukraine and Moldova, where which is not an EU country, EU member, where we also invested working with the Ministry of Education in all the refugees surrounding Moldova.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: But so so you know any country that is more is our responsibility.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we have um we have invested strong link in trade.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: However, um there are so many other countries where even less investments are made um in sub-Saharan Africa, across the Middle East, um, Afghanistan, the Ruhin guarantees, and we we cannot forget about them either.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have to stay on top of their needs as well.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to balance.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: We have to go to the most needed.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a guiding compass.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm very interested in what drives you because you first of all show lots of courage.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I love I love the way you're, you know, you say we're we're impatient because I think that's obviously um a critical part of what you do is to just go where you need to go.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you personally do that.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, I mean, I looked, you know, I get some understanding of where you've been in the last few months, and it's just mind-blowing how you travel to all these countries.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: You don't just sit at your desk and and sort of do it from there.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're very hands-on.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about how you yourself are driven and what it is that drives you to be in this space.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where is there something historically for you or how you grew up?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because it requires bravery.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Since I was young, I never liked injustices.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I always felt that I wanted to be of service.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up with wrong models, you know.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as I say, you know, my mother used to tell me, you know, the greatest you can do in life is to be of service to others.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, everything else you follow.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: But don't go and look for, you know, money is the first goal for yourself.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Look to serve others, and then everything else before in the place.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up with those sort of moral values.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, Martin Luther King Jr.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: and Elson Mandele.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these were role models that I got to know early in my books and other books.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I I always felt um that I wanted to be there for others.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in Sweden.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's a much more comfortable place to grow up in.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it starts very early in life, in my wise.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's the value system you carry from home.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: You learn you know what it's worth to stand up for.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, and I was also told to speak up speak true to others, and which I have exactly but to do it, you know, for a cause that is high than yourself.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and I have a very I find that being of service to others is it brings a lot of happiness um to see other people being able to raise up from the ashes of what they have gone through and see them coming out strong with their seas, or you know, see young children who who have gone through a lot of traumatic experiences and then suddenly they are tears and smiling and they want to to change the world and their dreams.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I find that such a precious, priceless joy.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And really, anything else is more exciting.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I I like to challenge um what part of things.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to me as if you're driven by that joy and that that need to serve, but also you have a lot of strength from what I can see that you're working with, because where does that internal strength come from?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that do you think that that's learnt, or do you think that's something that you have innately, or is it a bit of both?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably a bit of both.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's probably a combination of life.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you all go through life and and there are good times and there are bad times, and it depends how you deal with it, the tough times.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if you see them as an opportunity to learn and neutral strength, you become strong.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you see them as a oh, why ye, then of course it's weakening you.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is one thing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've also felt, and that was probably part of my outfit.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: I felt that all of humanity is my business.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I I I need to do something for others, and and I I also have a very strong belief, and I don't want to, you know, uh close myself to one religion as opposed to none.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's more spiritual belief in the universe.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that you know, don't go onto others, and and that brings joy to you yourself.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I get a lot of strength from the children in the communities episode.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: When I see them, I say, wow, you are strong.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I get strength from that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have to see young people, children, communities that go through things that we can't even imagine.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I see them coming out with this receiving us and strength, and I'm just so humble, and I say, Wow, you are making me strength.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: You are making me strong.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I've learned to know from the people I've been working with out there, the communities and the families and the children.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: They they are actually very distinct as well.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I actually that makes so much sense to me.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I can see that you you actually, your passion and I understand you're quite a spiritual person.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: You have do you have hope and faith in the you know, you see, as you've just outlined, a lot of um reward when things when when suddenly these communities, you know, can access education and they they can go on the path that you hope they will.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: But are you hopeful and and do you come from a place of faith?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't necessarily mean religion, I mean spiritual faith.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Spiritual faith, yeah.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you because if you for me, my perspective is over to go to religion, we start with exclusion.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you belong there, you belong there, but the spirituality is something we all have as human beings, and we have compassed before.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it definitely comes with spiritual faith.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe that there is uh there is there is a connection here somewhere, uh, however you define it.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I I believe the human when human rights were created as inherent in the human nature came from the spiritual place.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely, and I but I I also and I have hope because I do believe that what you can conceive you you can achieve.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you can conceive a world where you have human rights, where you have um healthy conflict resolution, I'm not saying that there will be no conflict, of course.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: People will argue and it doesn't mean that you take out the bazooka and rockets, but so I believe it's possible because we can conceive it.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's anything up here we can we we can think of.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: However, I think we are searching for solutions in the wrong place.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: We we tend to divide the world in B and them, and we are the you know the good ones that you know, you know, trying to say the word, and that's wrong.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think Gandhi was right and he said we want to change the world, we have to start with ourselves.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the the word as it is today is a reflection of our attitude.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think we should underestimate the impact of ego and greed in the more um socially acceptable leadership because they don't want to you know sort of undereducated better in the desert.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it is it is educated people who have a strong ego and who want to solve things to conflict and military means and you know everyone wants power.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote a book on the case of freedom.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I should not make uh any ads for it, but it's on Amazon.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: But basically I think we have to come to a point if we're gonna make this happen, is where we have to choose between what is your desire?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is your desire power when we continue like this?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: But once we start developing a much finer and hiding design, the design for humanity, I think it's possible.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: When it will take 8 billion people and suddenly everyone in decision making to make a transformation of themselves.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we all should be working with those sense as we go and on.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the work that you're doing is certainly in that vein and certainly um one of the standouts in terms of achieving that goal.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it sounds to me it's also you you haven't um, which I can imagine that it would be quite difficult not to get bogged down with some of the bureaucracy that goes with that, but your focus on education and making sure that you have that mission as your focus.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's your focus is broad on many levels, but the education aspect, you really have, I suppose, in some ways I feel like you've nailed it, you guys have got a very good structure, strategy, and plan, and it seems to be working.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is that your impression that you're you're get you're making inroads?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was in Colombia um a couple of weeks ago, and we have been vaccine there.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: We started about three years ago, and now when I came out, I saw the results, and that was mind-blowing.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what were they?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, so for exact, can you anecdotally describe classrooms?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Teachers are trained, uh children are learning, we really have really learning outcomes.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the government is very also very collaborative, and all organizations are working together without competition.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: You see a massive transformation.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so it shows that if you all come together and you don't compete and you have funding, this is possible.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if they can do it, we can do it everywhere, and we have done it elsewhere as well.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I must also say I think education cannot wait, which was, and I have to give credit to uh the former prime minister to the UK, Gordon Brown, who is the US special envoy for global education, because he conceived this idea of educational wet, and and he he was he felt we need to move faster.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be less bureaucratic orders and more accountability towards UCR.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he conceived this whole idea, and it was established the World University Summit, and I was appointed to build.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you worked with him closely as a yeah, very interesting.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tremendously um enriching to work with such a visionary as well.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is is part of the reason that we've been able to move because we think in like, but then also we have great strategic partners, great UN agencies like UNHR, World Club Program, UNICEF, UNESCO.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have many international NGOs like Save the Children, uh, World Division, Plan International, uh, WarShile, many others that we work with, and then we have ministers of education in these countries, and the constructor is that they are part of the decision making.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as if they give us funding and then we report back by the end of the year.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, we speak to them on nearly a day in a day since we have two boards, and I think that has shown that the more inclusive you are, the more you bring everyone in.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because nobody wants to sit in their office in Northern Europe or North America and never feel that they're closer.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is not gonna give them the passion stimulation, so and the drive.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they are with us, they travel with us, and they know what's going on, everything is transparent.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: We are it's it's the sense of us together doing this, and I think that has broken down a lot of the redundant bureaucracy because you always need some bureaucracy with funding, especially.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, yeah, yeah, for accountability and and things like that, of course, yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe because I've also spent many years, almost 35 years in the system.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think bureaucracy can be done less coversome, but still with a stronger accountability.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good point, yeah, very important point.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the trade of it.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's more efficient, and everyone is with us on that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: We when we sit in our board meetings, there's an enormous passion and positive spirit in how we work, and that helps a lot.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: When you don't have naysayers, or we can't do this, or no, it's not possible.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone says we can do it.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, whether you are a government or you are a UN agency or a civil society, and not a lot, alone, the the local organizations and the children themselves.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: There is a positive energy that runs through education and operates.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's something that's to do with attitude, so well, on that wonderful note of hope, which which I always think is critical in these sorts of areas, and certainly something that I can see in both your energy and your mission, and obviously your smile, um, I'd like to thank you so much for joining me on the Beyond Words Global Literacy Podcast.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that we meet again and that we talk further about the extraordinary work that you're doing, and certainly hope we see improvements in the literacy space because there's a lot of people who care, and that's what's evident, including yourself.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and so do you.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um does uh all of you are involved with that body just as some just on the it's been absolutely absolutely very interesting to speak with you before.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so come towards uh well I hope to be in New York in September for this for the uh the UN Assembly, so I'll come visit.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'll we'll catch up then.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, and thank you to all of them listening as well.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you everyone.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well at the World Literacy Foundation, we believe in literacy is the foundation of lifelong learning and education.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: People who cannot read or write experience difficulties with simple everyday tasks, such as reading the label of a medicine bottle, filling in a job application, or understanding a traffic sign.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: When we help someone to acquire literacy skills, we're empowering them to access to better opportunities in life to break the poverty cycle.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a global organisation in Africa, Latin America, the United States, United Kingdom, and in Australia.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: The World Literacy Foundation is on a mission to ensure that every child, regardless of geographic location, has the opportunity to acquire literacy skills and books to reach their full potential.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're striving to eradicate the literacy by 2040.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Reading and writing should just be a basic right, not a privilege.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: So please, if you're interested, head to our website, the World Literacy Foundation, to see what is happening globally, this extraordinary organisation, when we realise that there are 750 million people who cannot read and write.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So see if you can contribute and make a difference.