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Transcript

Andy Gruhin · Caught on the Mike...

• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Caught on the Mike.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some songs are written because you have something to say.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Others are written because you have something you have to survive.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Andy Gruen's debut album, Hannah, Lives Somewhere in That Space.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a record about grief, fatherhood, trauma, memory, and figuring out how to live after your life changes forever.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're talking about the story behind Hannah, the deeply personal Bobby featuring Alejandro Aranda.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: We were just talking about him.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens when songwriting becomes a way to keep moving forward.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Andy, how the hell are you, man?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm doing pretty good.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm glad to be here.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to have you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was just listening to the album before you jumped on.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, I absolutely love it.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love the production on it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I attribute that all to the people that helped me help me build it.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Taylor Larson, Frank Afruza, Arnie Woods, all of them are Ernie on drums.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all of them are geniuses.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Hannah is out in the world now after caring these songs for so long.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's so weird to hear someone say that.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Hannah's out in the world now.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like she's she's she's gone from the world.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is I've never heard I've never heard it say it said like that, but yeah.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: The album is up there.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, it's cool.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's cool that like it's out.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a that's a cool thing.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a cool thing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I mean it with all respect, man, because uh it's a heavy load.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and after carrying all of these songs for so long, what does it actually feel like to finally release this record and have it no longer exclusively belong to you?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Putting it out is the best part of this whole thing.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't realize that.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't realize that that was going to be the best part.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I didn't know what I was doing this for.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And now that I'm kind of free of it, other than you know, like the occasional podcast conversation like we're having right now, um, like I'm focusing on the things that I would have been focusing on had none of this happened.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm newly engaged, uh, my son is amazing.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh I read a quote the other day that really stuck with me.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, spend your money on things that money should be spent on, and spend your time on things that money can't be spent on.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So like I'm I'm focusing on the latter.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of crazy.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh life has a funny way of kind of determining our path for us, despite whatever plans we make.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've another quote I've heard is you want to make God laugh, make plans.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not to get deeply into religion, but like I've kind of severed ties with with whatever, and I've just kind of accepted that what is will be.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of have to when you're in this situation.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um what I'm what I'm happy about is that I am no longer uh accustomed to feeling suffering every day.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like carrying this record was it was a it was a burden that I I just had with me for a while.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we it took way too long to put this thing out.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like way, way too long.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I thought we were gonna be like a few months and done.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: We are two and a half years in.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like I I'm just I'm just glad it's done.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that has to do with me and my perfectionism, and you know, but like I'm just glad it's over.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So very freeing.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: What was more therapeutic?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Was it the process of like putting these tracks down or getting it out in the world?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't me getting it out into the world wouldn't have felt therapeutic had I not done the album.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I needed a thing or place or I mean I mean, when this happens to people, most people turn to religion, they turn to all sorts of things.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's that was not for me.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I needed to to focus it somewhere.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And instinctively, because you know, it's it's it's part of when you're obsessed with music, or if you're obsessed with drawing, or obsessed with whatever it is that you're obsessed with, that becomes your instinct.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So instinctively, after everything happened and I was losing my mind, I instinctively was like, I need to put this all into a piece of music.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so had I not and had I not had the support and everybody helped me um create this, it would have been much harder.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I I would say going back to your original question, making the album was the therapy, but releasing the album is is I finally feel like I can take the next chapter of my life, like I can move forward.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing really changes, but I can move I can move forward.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, that is such a fair assessment, and honestly, a very candid one.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and I really enjoy that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was talking to you before we pressed record about some of the quotes that you've put out into the world that I really enjoy.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them is everyone writes about the explosion, nobody writes about the smoke.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a line from your recent mundane interview, and it really jumped out at me.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: You deliberately chose not to make Hannah a traditional memorial to your wife, but instead to explore what happens after the loss.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why was the aftermath the story that you needed to tell?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because when Hannah died, I it really put into perspective I mean, I've heard people use the term ego death so many times in my life.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I experienced whatever that form of ego death was, and who was I to tell Hannah's story?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Who am I?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I knew I Hannah and I were together for nine years.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: She was 33 when she passed away, you know.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I nothing I could have written could have brought her back to life.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it felt inappropriate for me to think that I have the right to do that, you know what I mean?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I don't know, you know, it's it's it's it's a weird, it's a weird gray area.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also just at the time, I when when I when this first and this idea first came into mind, I was so I didn't even want to think about Hannah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it like you know, it it's it was very hard because I was writing about all this stuff, but I I I I was trying to escape in every single way possible from my own head.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, this everyone writes about the smoke, so the explosion.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: What I was trying to say is, you know, like in my experience, a lot of artists they'll write this big epic ballad about this amazing, incredible, or horrible moment in time, and it'll be the whole thing, and it's like, well, what about after?
• 8:46
  unknown: Right.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because for me, the the the after is the part that changed my life, really, you know, where where I started really looking at myself differently and and thinking differently and just where the the the shifts started to happen.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I I kind of learned along the way that I'm too stupid to really truly have any opinion about other people or about the grand scheme of things in life because I'm just a regular person.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And to think that I have uh any right or or superiority or intellectual or artistic need to do that, I I think that's a bunch of bullshit, and that's I I it would be inauthentic of me to do so.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I again I want to give you your props and your flowers for being so candid about that because I imagine that it is a real challenge to kind of try and preserve somebody's memory without feeling like you're living inside or trapped by the memory, if that makes sense.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my my life was already trapped by the memory.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I look I in in in when I originally was writing this record, I every single time I look at my son, I see my wife.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what, you know what I mean?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I and also like when something like what what people don't see, what the biggest thing that people don't know when something like this happens to you and it happens in such a tragic way it's the people that are closest to you that don't get it and will just like change your life for you without your permission, because you are so the concept of of having any self-governance or or having any opinion about anything is it's gone, it's just it just disappears.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I I was I was in a I was in a box writing about the box that I was in.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've mentioned your son a few times, and I imagine going through something like that probably redefined you as a person, obviously, and your role as a father on the grand scheme of things.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Probably just obviously shock and you know, um, but Bobby, the song, feels like the emotional centerpiece of the album.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You described it as a song you weren't right really writing for yourself, but for him.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: How different was the songwriting process when you knew you were creating something Bobby could potentially listen to years from now and learn something about his mother through?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was completely different than the other songs.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was a song that I knew I I knew I had to write a song for Bobby.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I other otherwise the album would have felt not incomplete, but like just there's a fundamental missing component here, you know.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't want to do it in any kind of cringy way.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just know I just knew it had to be beautiful and it had to be honest and it had to be real, and I had to say I I couldn't I couldn't make up a bunch of stuff that he wouldn't believe, or you know.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So smartest thing I could possibly do was hit up who hit up the most talented person I know.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll there you go, Alejandro.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, and you I just said I I saw one of Alejandro's riffs.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been following Alejandro forever.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I just I just found an old riff and I was like, dude, can you just play that?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote the whole song to that, and that was it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and what I what I really kept that song to is I didn't want to go into too much detail.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I just what I'm trying to convey in that song to my son isn't necessarily isn't the like the only thing very obviously is is like that that Hannah and myself will always love him.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: But um and so many people think that song is a tribute to Hannah, and I guess in their perspective it is, but it's really for my son.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: What what I'm trying to say to Bobby is that like if he's ever in a position in life where he's questioning like whether it's worth the risk to love somebody or something because of circumstance or because uh it may change things.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look at my story, look at what happened to your dad.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: We love the shit out of you, and we'll always will.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like I I hope this song if he listens to it, he'll he'll you know, take a chance on love.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: When you heard the finished product with all of Hondo's parts and all of your stuff mixed together, um did it change the emotional meaning of the song for you?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was like I I at the time I was so numb still.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was still I was still very ice, ice cold.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I knew it was something because it was the first song that I had shown anybody, and I showed my parents, and they were sobbing like and and like every and then I start I started showing like friends, and when my dude friends are like stop like crying after hearing it, I'm like, oh, okay, mission accomplished, I guess.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't I didn't I you know I that's the thing with this with this record, you know, the the the the only song, the only song, the only parts of the record where I was like, oh my fucking god, finally, was when I when I finished PTSD, because I I felt like that song was like that's um that's an Andy Gruen song, and that's like yes, right.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the end of the sun and the moon, that big, that big chorus at the end, that felt like, wow, holy shit, we made that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wow, you know, that that that was those those are like the two moments in the record where out of my numbness, while we were making it, I was like, whoa, like that's that sounds crazy.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I'm really enjoying so far as we're having this conversation is we're getting into some deep, weighty, heavy shit, but we're still able to laugh.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you gotta laugh.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is like a good indication of the headspace that you're in right now, having this out in the world.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's coincidental at all.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm no psychiatrist and I'm not trying to play an armchair one, but I do think this is very indicative of of where you're at right now.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: The song Fear of Flying takes the idea and kind of takes it into another direction.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: You described the song um as being about becoming afraid to lose things once you actually have something to lose.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, kind of talking about having this out in the world, along with the nightmares and guilt associated with experiencing joy again.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: What did you have to confront yourself to write that song to put you where you're at right now?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, so so that song is really interesting because like that hook, I've actually had that hook for a while.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: The yeah, I had this recurring dream, but like I repurposed that song because when Hannah died, I had not the dreams that I explained in the song.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I had, and I will not, that's one thing that I will not discuss.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I had the most horrible, vivid, recurring nightmares every single night for about nine and a half, ten months.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was just bad.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was bad.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was waking up screaming and sweating and crying and pissed the bed a couple times.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was just bad.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: PTSD is no joke, dude.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so I wanted to write a song about dreams.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: But at that point, when I realized like I wanted I wanted to write a song about dreams, I was already kind of like I'm ready to be done feeling like this, you know?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it made me realize like one of the funniest things, and and and the and I actually like started writing this song because I was I was talking to Clay, Arnie Woods, who helped who helped me write a bunch of the songs on the record.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I had just come back on a on a trip to LA or something, and I and I and I was I was getting off the plane and I was just remembering something that I used to talk about with my therapist, uh that like when you got when when there's nothing to lose, you know, like you'll get on an airplane, you'll jump out of a plane, you know.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: When I skydiving when I was a kid, I I love that.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's crazy.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now, think about Bobby, like it's it's just it's just different.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, there's a period of time like after Hannah died where like that reckless feeling, it totally came back.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because while when I was married, I was terrified of flying.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, I couldn't travel anywhere.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then it disappeared, and then I realized like I wanted to write a song about the dreams.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then wait a second, I just got back on from this flight flight from LA, and I'm feeling like that flight, that flight back was like kind of scary.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because like it was before I had I had asked my my girlfriend at the time to to marry me.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank whoever for her.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: She's uh what you would call a godsend.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's basically the biggest supporter on this record.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I realized like that flight, like, holy shit, like I I felt, I felt like I had something to lose.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it made and it it's like weird.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a bad feeling, but it's also like a good, a good feeling.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So so that whole song became kind of like I'm so ready to be free of this, but it keeps pulling me back in because you get addicted to the feeling of pain and suffering and redundancy and you just and pity and all the shit you gotta deal with when this happens to you, when the other side is just so much better.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, once you break through that wall, dude, it's just like, oh my god.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I'm not gonna dredge up anything about the dreams, just more of a commentary.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And for sure, I it's a it's a weird thing because I think it happens in grief a lot.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I despite my God quote earlier, I am as spiritually ambiguous as you can get.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the fuck I believe, you know.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think maybe there's something, I don't know.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say I was very religious before this rec before everything happened, and then it became then it became inept, and now I just think that everyone's too stupid.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: So stop wasting your time thinking about it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, but everyone's a fucking idiot.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, just like we're all we all have assholes, we all shit out of our assholes.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, you know, like shut up.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like but the thing, the thing about the dreams Andy Grown for president, but yeah, but yeah, absolutely 100%.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um the thing about the dreams thing is I know when I've experienced moments of grief or the moment of somebody passing, that is where they come to me, is in my sleep more frequently than not.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like finishing conversations that I never got to finish why these people were alive or with us.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be a haunting thing.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you you cited the BTSD part of it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's legit, man.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: If people don't take that as seriously as they probably should.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, if Bobby wasn't, I mean, truth, this is just objectively true.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: If Bobby was not born, I would would a hundred percent be dead.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not even a question.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt very trapped in a way.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I wish my dreams about Hannah were positive in any way.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I have not had a single positive dream ever about Hannah, which is like really sad.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get to say goodbye.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like I forget what her voice sounds like sometimes.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I for I forget, I forget.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Someone else asked me this the the a question in in an interview, but I was like, but the right before the interview, I was like looking through phones, uh, looking through my phone of pictures of that time, and I don't even recognize that person.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Someone some people will tell me about an I I attended an event or did something or said something or had a belief, and I'm just like, what?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like my brain biochemically just changed.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that that's also a byproduct of just time passing and the compartmentalization of different seasons of life as well?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you kind of have the grief side of things going on one path, but you also have the aging side of life going on another path because I, you know, I kind of recall that in my own life where I'm just like, you know, I don't remember that version of myself, let alone anybody that was in that fucking part of my life where that version of myself existed.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so do you think you kind of got the double whammy with both things happening at the same time?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want to say yes, but I don't think I I don't think I did, you know, because I because I I'll put it to you this way most people I know, they still they still have moments where they s where they like feel like a kid.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like you feel like you're 13 again.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have those moments anymore.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: The day Hannah died was the day that I became 32 years old.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been 32 years old since that day.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't experience that youthful feeling anymore.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I really try to, and there's glimpses, there's glimpses of it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I can I can look back at my 16-year-old self and be like, wow, that kid's a stupid idiot.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: No question.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can look back at my 25-year-old self and while I'll be like, wow, that guy's a stupid idiot, just by objectively looking at the things that I did or things that I thought or things that I believed.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I can't look back at my 32-year-old self and like remember what my marriage felt like.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or or I I don't really remember the conversations that I had with Hannah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember like the arguments that we had.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember Bobby's first six months of life.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really remember.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll and bits and pieces come back, but it's really like when something like this happens, you you the whole world continues to move, and your world just stops.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you just see everybody else like what while after this happened, I saw like divorces and I saw my friends also having children more children, and I'm watching families grow, and I'm watching families fall apart, and I'm like, I'm just like sitting in my basement writing this album, just like, what the hell is happening?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it you you kind of feel like an alien.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: That that's the easy, you know, you feel like you don't belong here.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's that's totally valid and fair because I I think as humans, when we go through these things, one of the things you mentioned was some of the people that were closest to you couldn't conceptualize what you were going through at the time.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it it is that is so true.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes it takes an ambiguous third party that doesn't even know you to recognize what you're going through more than the people that you see every single day sometimes.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: The moment that I that I knew something was different was uh it was right after Hannah died, and I had a bunch of friends and family over because that's what Jews do.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: We have the Shiva, and you know, and I was chain smoking cigarettes in my backyard, and I saw uh, and there were so many people, and I felt like I was just talking to I don't know what I was hallucinating out of my mind.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my friends who was in the military, hardcore, we start talking, and I'm like, everything this guy's saying makes sense, and I'm like, oh shit, like it was it was at that moment I'm like, oh no, dude.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's kind of when it really hit that like something happened internally in my head.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because the people that are closest to you sometimes overly try and find a commonality with what you're going through, and sometimes it can go to the case of the colour.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Solution after solution after solution after solution.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: When when you're grieving, all you need is witnesses, you just need people to recognize that you exist because, like, yeah, the person died, but like chances are the person closest to that person also felt like they died.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's proven, like when it happens to a woman, they feel biologically connected to the child.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Men do not have that feeling.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: A widower does not have that feeling.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: So when I looked at Bobby, I was terrified of him for a long time.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, now he's my he's he's he's my twin, he's my boy.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that kid.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but like I could I couldn't I couldn't look at him for a while.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was very hard, and I will regret that for the rest of my life because he was literally the cutest kid ever that I've ever seen in my life, you know.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um goes though you know, it's hard to kind of place where your mindset goes creatively in a situation like this.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've gone through a divorce and I've uh again playing armchair psychiatrist.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I've talked to other friends that have either kind of gone through similar similar situations as yourself or as myself going through a divorce is you almost develop three separate personalities, like the id, the ego, the superego version of yourself.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's the there's the person that's that's mourning the thing that happened, there's the person that's like almost manic and overreacting to everything that happened, and then there's the person that finally makes peace with everything that happened.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And those three different versions can show up unexpectedly at any point in time.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that first year I was going through my divorce, I was just like, holy fuck, what version of Mike is gonna wake up today?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which one is it gonna be the guy that's going to the bar saying, woo-hoo, I'm single again?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it gonna be the guy that wants to stay in bed all day because he feels like he's failed his kids, you know?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and that same person has to wake up and go to their job so that they can provide for their family.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, in my situation, I was so dependent on Hannah, I didn't know anything about babies.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I nothing, you know, but like she it really these if anything, like these last what's the easiest way to say this?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's hard for I it's hard for I don't really regret anything that's ever happened to me because like I I don't have control of anything, but like Hannah turned me into a man.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I was a little boy before, and she helped me become a man and this event might have put an extra period on that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like this event, this event turned me into an old man.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, you know, my my the my my fiance, she she she I don't need anybody to kick my ass or you know, get me into gear anymore.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I just need a witness, someone who's there for me, someone who understands it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: She understands grief in her own way, you know.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why I went off on that tangent, but but I I I felt I felt like it was poignant when I first started saying it.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, this is this is fantastic, honestly.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, getting back to the album, you know, there's songs like PTSD, My Basement and Cursed, and my personal favorite track on the album is concrete so far, and just getting getting into it right now.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um you've pushed back on the idea that grief happens in clean stages, and that's a lot of what we've been talking about just now.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at the 10 tracks in totality, do you see an emotional narrative that you couldn't necessarily see when you were writing it?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I knew the track order before before like we finished the record, you know.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it starts at concrete.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Concrete um is my disassociation from my older self and my disassociation with God.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Safe is my panic song, where I just wanted to I I I literally I'm very literal.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I I want to feel safe again.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's what I was trying to say.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: I and I even say in my verse, you know, I recognize that I'm just a pawn, I have no control over anything.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended that song with Arnie with my buddy Clay screaming his face off, saying, I want to get out of this fucking house, because like I I did.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, glue is about how we can't how things get stuck to you no matter.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say in the hook, I don't want to love you anymore, but I I I do, you know?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then PTSD, it's what was happening.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Cursed is as an interlude, kind of feels like I'm I at the time I felt like I was cursed.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I felt like that was my life, and then the lighter side of the record starts to appear.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like my basement is more it's more of like a shoegazy feel.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's dark, especially lyrically, but like it's it's there's there's a little hope in there, and Turn to Stone is a lot more reflective, and then Bobby is Bobby, and then Fear of Flying is really trying to get out of there, and then the sun and the moon is kind of I wanted that to be one giant crescendo into that one line, our love is all but dead and gone, you know, like and and that's like that, you know.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted the the record to end with you know noises from nature, you know, kind of explaining like at the end of it, we all we all go, but the love lives on.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that comes up frequently on my show is this modern era of music that we're sitting in and how everything is genre fluid anymore.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you look at the genre bender, yeah, if you look at you look at genre blending, the only benefit, or it's not the only benefit, but the the biggest silver lining of the streaming services is the fact that the guardrails are off now, and an artist doesn't have to paint themselves in a corner to be successful, they can kind of lean into all of their influences.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: You've talked about being influenced by songwriters like Damian Rice, he's one of my favorites, Elliot Smith, Matt Nathanson, and Springsteen before some of the emo and alternative bands that people might associate with your sound at large.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: My advice to anybody that's listening to this or watching this is don't judge this album on one song.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Try and listen to the collective to kind of experience the whole journey journey as far as genres go.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've even described yourself as a singer-songwriter who does it a bit more aggressively as well.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you personally draw the line between singer-songwriter, alternative and emo, and what do you think of as far as genre whenever you're creating?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of why like I've had so many people ask me, like, why don't I just come up with like a moniker or like a band name or whatever?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, because that's bullshit.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's not me, you know.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think I think all of it I view the type of music that I make.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I genre blending, I've been genre blending for 17 years.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I I I had I I I had one band, we we put out like uh emo meets dubstep, and that stuff, that thing exploded on SoundCloud.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just crazy, it's just stupid.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's been making music forever, you know what I mean?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like people use those words and they've they fetishise these words until they mean nothing anymore.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so like I view myself as a storyteller, view myself as a singer-songwriter.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when someone asks, like, how they would approach my album, I'm telling a story.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying exactly what happened.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you only listen to one song, you're you're only gonna get one aspect of the story and probably think one part of I of who I am.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I could have gone way more experimental if I really wanted to, but I wanted to keep this album very tasteful, you know, you know, very listenable.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I didn't I didn't want to like push the lines too much, but you know, even though it it's an alternative record, I could argue that every song is sonically different.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I I I I'm 100%.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm surprised more people haven't like approached me about it.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like glue like glue is a it's a synth song, and then and then my basement is way off, and the sun and the moon is a totally different thing.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, there's some rock songs on there, but like there's a song with screaming, there's a song, there's a song with strings, like you know, it's it's just kind of all over the place.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: So like I think, and I've said this in another interview, like people get the people that get caught up on genre, it's like it's like filing police work after you've already committed the crime.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's the shit that like nobody wants to do.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like people care about what actually happened.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no one, like, who cares what you call it?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's about the emotion that it's supposed to bring out of you, and it's about the story that's being told.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I grew up listening.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: My dad used to sing me Thunder Road by Bruce Springsteen as a lullaby when I was a kid.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up hearing about these great songwriters like Bob Dillon and Bruce Springsteen and Tom Waits and all these guys.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like I look at I look at the music today, and I've been on both sides of the aisle.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've been in AR, and I've I've been a manager, and I've been an artist, and I've I've been on I work in music and a preservation right now in a totally different space.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like I've been on every side you can imagine.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like the music, there's so much music today, but it's very rare where I where I encounter a record where it's like these guys are saying something.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know, I I hear a lot of noise, but I don't hear anyone saying something.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: I got so bummed, I'll tell you this.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: I got so bummed.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: I put out Bobby, and that song means the world to me.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I have no disrespect to whoever, you know, it's I have no beef with anybody that I don't personally know.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know Phoebe Bridgers.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: But then she put out a song called Bobby, and it's about Bo fucking Burnham, and and that's not even his fucking name.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you you know, like, and that's a hit song.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And look, I get it.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Phoebe's amazingly talented.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm way less talented than Phoebe Bridgers.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I can happily admit that.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: But it's but it's also like, fuck man, that's my song title, like about my son.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let me let me have that moment.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I guess, and like going back to my influences, I listened to everything.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think most musicians do, bro.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you saw my like most recent two, I'll go through, I'll go through with you right now.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm listening to Japanese K-pop, and I got Orchid, and then I got Black Sabbath, and then I got Duskus and the spill canvas and turnstile, and uh, oh yeah, here's uh I got Wu-Tang clan.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm all over, I'm all over the place, you know?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that's because I love music.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I feel like it's really silly to put people in a box because then what when when when when listeners put artists in boxes, people forget that like artists need validation, they need it, they they live off of it, they breathe it.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when you put so whatever, I I I mean, some people use it as like marketing tactics, but like when you put an artist that you really like in a box, chances are they're gonna do that thing.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if they do that thing and it's not their thing, it's probably gonna sound like shit.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're gonna get mad at that artist for sounding like shit, for trying to do the thing that you asked them to do instead of doing it the way that they wanted them to do it.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And 100%.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: That was the most important thing about this whole thing.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm deeply, deeply in the red, but I created a major record, a major label record by myself, with my own money, with my own people, with my own voice, without having anybody, anybody tell me what I can or cannot do, marketed it in the exact way that I wanted to do it, released it in the way that I wanted to do it.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Was I encouraged to do TikToks?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Was I encouraged to do all the stupid stuff you don't want to do?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do I care about being a rock star?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Some people might.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you might want to do the other two things.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, it was liberating to just put out music without anybody's fingerprints on it.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Just mine.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that is an authentic story that more people should tell.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people have been asking me like, is there, do I have any message with this record?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think my message is very clearly obvious.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, my wife passed away and I wrote about it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: But like, after having so many of these conversations, I think my message is like, I don't care how you do it, but if you're gonna put out a piece of music, really make it your own and really make it about something.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't, I think you're doing a disservice to yourself, not to your fans, not to your money.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know you gotta pay bills.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Music is not the best way to pay bills.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hate to break this to you, it's just not.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: But like, if you want to, got do what you gotta do.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: But like, if you really want to make something, do it on your own terms and fuck everybody else.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, dude, that is so amazing.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, and one thing that I'm gonna kind of throw out there as like an objective third party here is there is an intertwined string and thread throughout the whole album.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: No matter what the genre you are kind of playing into, like you are the thread, and that is the best thing that you can have or ask of an artist is let them be the thread.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've all seen it, like you said, a million times.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: An artist has a song that's a hit that's normally not in their wheelhouse, and then every fucking album that comes after that is a replication or an attempt at a replication of that hit, and that artist goes from being somebody you absolutely love for being who they authentically are to being who the industry wants them to be, and it's gross.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: It went, Pete.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: You said it yourself.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the only thing that no one else can replicate is you.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's your strong, it's your strongest marketing asset, it's your strong strongest marketing asset.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing that they can't copy is you and your story and who you are.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: They can copy your sound, your image, your likeness, your everything.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: They cannot copy you.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be you.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it goes without saying you've brought some pretty significant voices to the record.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Alejandro that we talked about, Alejandro Aronda, uh, under oaths, Aaron Gillespie, uh, Arnie Woods, Elijah Gibb all appear on the album.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when you hand something this personal to another artist and essentially say, here, this is yours to interpret now.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Did any of those collaborations change how you heard your own songs on the finished product?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um Aaron's was the only feature that I didn't write, but he kind of wrote it exactly how I hoped.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: So no.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they all like Eli has an amazing voice.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote a part, knew he'd kill it.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Clay, uh Arnie, who helped me on a lot of the record.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I wrote that screaming part, and I dude's got vocals like a motherfucker.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I knew he'd just ripped that.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um Alejandro's Alejandro.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like no.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, another aspect that I've brought up on the show many times, and this is just comes from my own past life of being a musician.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you kind of deducted that throughout our conversation.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember every time an album would drop, and this is taking subject matter of the album out of the equation.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just talking about the album itself.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: By the time the album would drop, I was pretty much over it.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was ready to purge myself and march into my next creative endeavor.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yes, what's next?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, kind of aspect of it.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking about the fact that the album dropped last week, who's Andy Gruen today that maybe Andy, who started writing this album, couldn't have imagined becoming, both as a person and artistically?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think I'm fundamentally different.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think a lot of people, if you ask, you know me, will tell you the same.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm definitely artistically, um I'm a lot more uh confident.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's nice that like I don't really I don't really give a shit what happens with this record if nothing happens to it, but like I know what I made.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: People can people can like it or not, like I know what I made.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um as a person, you know, now I'm a person um with a lot more boundaries, healthy boundaries, um that has relearned how to speak for himself, not only musically.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm a person that keeps to himself a lot more, and I keep my circle a lot smaller.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I have a lot more agency over myself, and most importantly, I'm a hell of a lot better of a father and and assumed-to-be husband than I was before, just because I'm I'm I'm I'm a grown-up now.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: I love that, brother.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have really enjoyed this conversation.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: I am now to call you just super proud to call you a friend.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am proud of everything that you've put forth.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just met you an hour ago, not quite.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is such a great chat.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: My closing question that I ask every guest that does the show, uh, because I appreciate different perspectives, but given everything that you've gone through, and you've gone through some pretty heavy stuff up to the release of this album, what's advice that you would give other people for making the world a better place tomorrow than what it is today through your eyes?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody has enemies, it's all made up in your head.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's unfair to make judgments of people before you know them.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that no matter what happens to you, love is the answer.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hell yes.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hell yes.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Andy, tell everybody where they can find you and your music online, my friend.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can find me on primarily uh on Spotify.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can download my whole album for free on Bandcamp because I do not care.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh if you want to find me on socials, I I I tend to hide over on Instagram and you know, I I chill over there.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh what my YouTube has a lot of really cool music videos if you want to check those out too.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's all Andy Gruin, A-N-D-Y-G-R-U-H-I-N.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the only one on the planet.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I love it, dude.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: I again just to repeat myself for the the sake of driving the point home, I have really enjoyed this conversation.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Super proud to call you a friend now.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for doing the show, brother.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: The world's a much better place with you and it.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I appreciate that, and it's it's been a pleasure.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me off.