Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / How to Create Community: Showing up for each other in a spiritual and secular world

Transcript

How to Create Community: Showing up for each other in a spiritual and secular world · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This is parent data. I'm Emily Oster. In the spring
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, one of the very last things that
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I did before everything shut down was a play at
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: my kids' school.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: We all got.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Together, we watched the kids do their performance, we went home,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: and then pretty much the next day, they gave us
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a packet and we didn't see anyone.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Else for a long time.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: It was more than a year later that I got
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: together again with all those same people, with that same community,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and this time we were outside. We were there to
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: celebrate the end of a complicated but ultimately successful school year.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: And I remember so distinctly the feeling of being with
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: those other people, in this community of people that I
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: cared about, who cared about my kids, and just how
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: amazing it was to be around others. And I think
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: about that now every time I spend time in that community.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: My son is now in the same third grade play
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: that was the harboringer of the pandemic, and I can't
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: wait to sit there with all those people and watch
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the kids sing Nemo and be with my people. We
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: think we learned a lot of things in the pandemic,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: but this idea of this need for connection to other
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: people is one of them that came out most significantly.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: For me, loneliness has always been a problem. It's maybe
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: it's a growing problem, but the pandemic really made it worse.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: But of course it's not just being around people. So
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: you can stand in the middle of Grand Central Station.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: That doesn't serve your need for human connection. Really, what
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: we're almost always looking for is a community, someplace where
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: we feel held and where we feel that we share
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: joy and sorrow and values. We get a lot of
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: that from our families, but I think we often find
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: we don't get everything we need from our immediate family.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I talk to a lot of new parents who say, well,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: people say it takes a village.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Where is my village? And I think sometimes.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: We're all looking for community, that village, those people who
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: are going to be there for us, even if they're
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: not our.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Mom or our dad or our partner.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Today's podcast is a conversation with Rabbi Sharon Brouse, whose
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: new book The Amen Effect is about community and finding
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: wisdom in old religious texts.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: But it really reframed.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: A lot of how I think about the importance of
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: being with other people and really being with them and
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: thinking about who we want to be with and how
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: we can be with a broader community of people and
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: try to see them and try to connect with them.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I loved the book, and I loved having this conversation.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I want to name that.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think you need to be religious to get
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: something out of this conversation.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I myself am not religious.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Rabbi Sharon, of course is religious, but we talk here
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: about the idea of community very broadly, and about connection
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: very broadly, and about all of the ways that we
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: might be able to find that. So after the break,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Rabbi Sharon Browse. So, Rabbi Sharon, I love it. If
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: you could please introduce yourself.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I'm Sharon Browse. I'm a rabbi living now in Los Angeles.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Came over from the East Coast about just over twenty
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: years ago, and I have three amazing kids, fifteen, seventeen,
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: and twenty. And in two thousand and four we built
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: a community called ekr which is kind of the spiritual
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: heart of our lives. And just wrote this book that
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: just came out called The Amen Effect, Ancient Wisdom to
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Mender Broken Hearts and World.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: So I love your book and we're going to talk
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: There's not that many things that I read that make
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: me think about how I'm living my life, and this
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: is one of them. So I'm really, I really think
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: everyone should read the book, but I would love you
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: to pitch what is the book for?
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: And why would someone read it?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: And I mean that in a positive way, like why
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: should someone read your book, not like why would anyone
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: read this?
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And the book emerges from the reality of the
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: world as it is right now. Granted that I closed
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: the manuscript over a year ago, and things are I think,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: even more pronounced than they were when I wrote it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: But we're living in a time of loneliness, social alienation,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: and isolation that is literally hurting our bodies, hurting our spirits,
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: and threatens to break our democracy.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: And the question is what can we do?
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: How can healing be possible when there's so much that's
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: shattered all around us? And we have this very powerful
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: ancient wisdom that essentially says to us that we must
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: learn how to turn to one another, how to lean
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: toward one another in celebration, in sorrow, and in solidarity.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: And that message just seems to me to be the
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: most profound and important message of our time. And especially
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: when so many of us feel so powerless because of
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: all the sorrow in the world and because of all
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: of the detachment that we're experiencing socially, to have a
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: kind of ancient call saying you're not powerless. You have
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: agency to take what may appear to be very simple
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: and small steps toward other human beings, but that could
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: actually have a very powerful reverbative effect on you and
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: your life, and your community and actually the world. And
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: that feels to me to be a very empowering message,
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: precisely at the moment that many of us are wondering
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: what kind of agency do I even have to respond
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: to the challenges that we're experiencing right now.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about a couple of the lessons
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: of the book. So the book is organized in a
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: series of lessons and stories and parables and ancient wisdom,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: but there are just two of them in this conversation
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: that I'd like to pull on because I think they
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: will be very resonant for the audience. So the first
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: is the lesson of showing up, and I actually want
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: to I want to start by talking about showing up
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: for joy because it seems easy and I think it
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: often intersects in a complicated way with our life. And
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: so let me give you an example be where I
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: was thinking about this. So, my very best friend in
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: the whole world just had a baby a few weeks ago,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: and it's incredibly exciting, and I wanted to go see
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: her and that I'm looking at the calendar and it's like,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I have the podcast, and I have, you know, my
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: kids that I have my and like, there's so many
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: things that are in your life and to find the time,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, just to be clear, she lives forty five
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: minutes away on the train. It's not like I had
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: to get on an airplane. It's not even a hard
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: thing to do. But even that, to sort of find
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: the time, I felt like I have to move this around.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: But then, of course I sort of thought to myself,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: like what are you doing, Like she's only going to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: have this This baby's only going to be one week
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: old for like one week.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: You better get your butt there. And I did, and
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: it was amazing.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: And I got to hold somebody else's baby and then
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: give it back, which is the greatest thing about your
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: friend's babies, I think.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: But it reminded me and you know, reminded me.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Of how it's hard sometimes to step out of our
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: lives that are so busy to be there even for
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: those moments where like I very much want to be
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: like there's nothing better than that, but it's it's hard
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: to like pull ourselves out of.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: A routine, right, So even for uncomplicated celebration of joy,
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: which is I mean because because imagine if your best
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: friend just had a baby and you just had a
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: pregnancy loss, then it would be a complicated celebration for her.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: Of course you'd be excited and happy for her, but
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: it would be it's hard. But this is not It
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: sounds like this is uncomplicated, and even still it's hard
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: to get there. And I think this was the this
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: was the brilliance of my grandma's rule. So my grandma
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: had this rule, which was, you just show up if
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: you're ever if you ever have the opportunity to show
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: up to celebrate a moment of joy with another person
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: and you're busy and you have a lot of work
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: and it's going to be a hassle to get there.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: If you can possibly show up, just show up. You
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: don't regret being present with other people for these really
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: critical moments. And you know, as I write about in
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: the book, my grandma's assumption was, if you would show
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: up for the tragedy, then you better show up for
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: the joy. Right if God forbid something had gone wrong
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: with your friend's delivery, you would have been right there
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: with her. So then why do we hesitate to show
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: up when it's time to celebrate? It's almost like wed
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: I think that we downplay the importance of togetherness, of
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: presence and friendship when when things are going well, and
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't, and so I think that's really critical. I
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: also think that my grandma her assumption that we would
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: automatically show up for the hard times is basically the
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: rest of the book, which is I don't think that
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: that's a fair assumption that most of the time we
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: don't show up because we're scared of loss, and we're
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: and you know, and there are so many reasons why
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: we retreat from each other's pain, But the joy part
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: should be obvious, and yet it's not. We almost don't.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: We don't understand how absolutely critical it is that when
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: somebody experiences joy that they can share it and I'll
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: just share one. I found this to be so interesting,
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: but there are studies now that show that the experience
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: of sharing your joy has as much of an impact
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: or more on your on your body and your spirit
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: than even experiencing the joy in the first place. So,
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: in other words, your friend having this baby was probably
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: this incredibly beautiful, blessed, ecstatic moment, but then seeing you
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: take her baby into your hands is even it even
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: it continues the joy might even have this kind of
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: exponential impact. And so like getting engaged could be such
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: a joyous moment in a person's life, but then calling
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: your loved ones to tell them that you just got engaged,
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: it kind of carries the joy forward in such a
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: powerful way. And so I think that we do diminish
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: the impact of joy, and we shouldn't. Joy is a necessity.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: It's a biological necessity, and it's a spiritual necessity, and
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: sharing joy is absolutely essential to the practice of joy.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I start there, even though we're
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: going to get into the hard pieces, because I think
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: it so much of the book is about connection and
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: about being with other people and about the importance of community.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: And there are things in our lives, the way they
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: often are in the current moment, that make it hard
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: to do that, even when it seems like it would
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: be trivial. It seems like it would be like, of
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: course I'd want to be there for the wedding, of
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: course I'd want to be there for this baby. Of
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: course I'd want to be there for these things. But
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: it's like, ah, but then I have a meeting, you know,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: or my kid is it's like annoying to schedule a babysitter,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: and it's like we got to be willing to do that.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Poor.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: Look, I mean I think this is this is also
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: just a kind of a working parent struggle or just
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: a busy working person struggle. But I mean every time
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: there's an event like this in the life of a
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: congregant in my community, I of course think, oh my god,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: you know, like this is wonderful. I can't wait to
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: go celebrate. I don't have a break for the next
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: seventeen days, you know, I don't have an hour. Or
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: there's a funeral and I think, oh my god, I
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: don't have the funeral. It's like a it's an all
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: day commitment, especially for the clergy. I mean, we go
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: to the family first, we spend hours with them, then
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: we stay up all night writing a eulogy, then we
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: spend half the day at the burial. Then there's the ship.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: But you think, and you think, there's no way that
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: I can fit this life moment into my into my calendar.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: But those are the moments that make our lives worth living,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: and so I think it's a it's kind of that's
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: why I think the rule is so important because the rule,
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: the rule helps us remember that we have to punctuate
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: time with moments of togetherness. And sometimes they are really
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: big moments, like weddings, and sometimes they're sort of smaller
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: moments of driving over to your friend to just like
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: sit for an hour and talk about how hard her
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: marriage is right now and you know where she might
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: find strength, or just to hold the baby because you
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: haven't seen the baby in two weeks now. So I
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: think those moments, it's this is a reminder that those
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: critical moments actually matter, and so does the work. The
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: work is important, and we have to make the work
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: a little bit more fluid so that there's room for
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: these moments of holy connection.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: And then the book talks me, as you say, so
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: much about the how do we show up for sadness
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and how do we show up to see people when
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: it's hard. When I know when I'm going to show up,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: it's not going to be incredibly wonderful that you know.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I know when I'm knocking on the door with the
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: new baby. Once I'm there, everything's going to be great.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: I'd be a king. That's so wonderful.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: But of course you're knocking on the door of the Shiva,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and it's not going to be great. It's going to
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: be really, really hard. And a lot of the book
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: is about recognizing why that's important. And I think I
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: would love you to start with the story about circling
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: at the temple.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So the central image that I use throughout the
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: book is based on this very ancient pilgrimage ritual when
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Jews used to come from all across the land and
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: from the diaspora, and they would ascend to Jerusalem, which
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: is a city on a hill. They would climb up
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: the steps of the Temple mount, which was the holiest
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: place in the holiest city, and they would enter through
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: this grand arched entryway, and then en mass, they would
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: turn to the right and they would circle around the
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: perimeter of the courtyard. Hundreds of thousands of people circling together,
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: this kind of alignment of body and spirit in this
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: sacred work of pilgrimage. And then they would go all
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: the way around and they would exit essentially the same
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: place where they had just walked in, except the tech
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: says for somebody with a broken heart, and that person
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: would ascend to Jerusalem. They would ascend the steps of
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: the temple Mounth, they would go through the arch genterator,
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: but they would turn to the left and they would
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: circle in the opposite direction from the whole community that
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: came that day. And this is already you can feel
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: the kind of tension or the discomfort in this encounter.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: But what would happen is as they would pass people
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: who are coming from the other direction, the people that
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: were coming from the right would stop and they would
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: look into their eyes and they would ask them this
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: simple question, malach, what happened to you? What's your story?
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: What does the world look like from your van toage point?
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: And that person who's broken hearted would say, my father
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: just died a couple of months ago, and I'm upside
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: down about it, or my partner just left, or I
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: found a lump, or I'm really worried about my kid
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: or I lost another pregnancy, or whatever the pain is
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: that's in their heart, or I just feel so alone
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: in this world, like literally nobody sees me. And then
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: the people are going from the right after hearing the
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: words of the bereaf, the bereaved, the ill, the broken hearted,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: would give them a blessing. They would say, may the
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: one who dwells in this place hold you as you
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: navigate this chapter of darkness. Or may you feel the
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: love of friends and community as you as you walk
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: through your illness. Or may your loved one's voice always
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: echo in your head and be present for you always.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: And then that was it.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: That was the end of the in direction. They'd continue
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: to circle and then they'd all leave and go have dinner.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: And what I realized about this ritual is that the
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: pow we're in it. I mean, it's very old, it's
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: two thousand years old. And the power of it is
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: that none of the parties that are involved want to
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: be in that in direction at all. So the person
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: who's broken hearted, who just lost their loved one, for example,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: the last thing in the world they want to do
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: is like get out of bed and get dressed and
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: show up in a place with hundreds of thousands of
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: people who are having the best day of their lives.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: It's just the cognitive dissonance. The spiritual dissonance is so profound.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: And I just was speaking a couple weeks ago with
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: a friend whose child died and after battling cancer for
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: two years, and it was a terrible, terrible illness and loss.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: And about a month after the death of the child,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: she had a very dear friend's wedding and she was
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: really struggling, do I go to the wedding? How do
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: I not go to the wedding? And she was dreading
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: going to the wedding, and she went to the wedding,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: and it was horrible for her to be at the
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: wedding because people were full of joy and ecstasy and
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: she's just totally shattered and she left, you know, upset
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: and alone. And so it's the last thing that we
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: want to do when we're in that state of brokenness
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: is show up. And yet the ritual says, you show up,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: and you don't pretend you're like everybody else. You don't
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: like put on your dancing shoes and you know, circle
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: in the direction of everybody else. But you engage in
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: a way that lets people know I'm not okay right now,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: You're honest about the fact that you're experiencing this pain.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: And then for the people who are okay that day,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: they also don't want to have this interaction. They probably
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: saved up and waited and planned and prepped their whole lives.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Like think about what people do to go to the
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Hodge and Mecca. It's a lifelong dream to do that pilgrimage.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: And when you finally get there, some strangers walking towards
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: you and like puffy red eyes and not looking okay.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: The last thing you want to do is leave your
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: family and friends and say, like, hold on a minute,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: I got to go check on this stranger with a
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: broken heart. And yet that's exactly what they're called to do.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: And so I realized that this ritual carries this very
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: profound psychological mesa for us about what it means to
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: enter into the kind of relational connections that our hearts need,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: especially when we're least inclined to do them, when everything
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: in the world is sort of pulling us away from
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: each other. How desperately we need each other, and there's
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: so much to the ritual that I really felt. So
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: each chapter is actually dedicated to a different aspect of
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: what it means to really find our way toward each
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: other when our instinct is to retreat. Including I'm just
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: astonished by this, but these people make their way up
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: to Jerusalem for all that it must have taken in
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: the ancient world to take that trip, and then they
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: get blessed, but not by the priests and the rabbis.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: They get blessed by the people because it's the other
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: people who are called to see them. It's the other
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: people who carry the ability to share the gift of
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: blessing with each other. So translating that into our terms,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: like how can we show up more honestly for each other?
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: How can we lean toward people who are in pain
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: and not a way?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: How can we.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Recognize that each of us has the capacity to bless
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: and to be blessed. There's so much wisdom here for
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: us that I think could really help us heal.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I think there's two really practical pieces in
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: some sense out of that story. There's many practical pieces,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: but maybe two I would pull out, And so one
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: is the piece of showing up yourself and the kind
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: of need, even when you are in a very hard
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: space to be able to understand they need to be
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: around other people and they need to in whatever way
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: is possible sort of accept that connection. And then the
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: other is the piece of as a friend or a congregator,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: as somebody who's on the outside of that, the need
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: they need to figure out how to show up. And
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I put that how to show up here because I
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: think what's so beautiful about that story is that it's
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: so clear from the rules about how you show up.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: You show up in precisely this way, with the asking
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: and the receiving and the and the blessing. What is
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: hard sometimes in our world is I think to know,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: what is the way I can show up that will
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: be comfortable for this person, that will help and not
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: make it and not make it worse.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: And of course we always have this instinct to say, like,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: well can I bring you know? What can I do?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: And as the and what can I do?
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Is like a terrible question to ask someone who's grieving
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: for whatever, because they don't know, you know, bring you know,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: bring my mom back?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Like what do you mean what can you do? Like
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't need any any soup.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: But somehow we have to figure out, like, what is
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: it that the person, what is it that we that
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: we should do when we shouldn't ask what can I do?
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Right? And what can I do?
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Puts the burden on the mourner or the person who's
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: dealing with illness or the caregiver to then now, in
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: addition to everything else, I'm.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Whole, and you can do it to make you feel
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: And it feels like I'm trying to tell you this
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: so you feel better about contributing.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. You know, this is what my
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: sister in La Paulette does. She says, I'm in Trader Joe's.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: What can I pick up for you?
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Or she'll say I have you know, I just picked
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: up a bunch of fresh fruit and left it at
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: your door, like everyone wants fresh fruit, right, And so
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: she sort of takes the questions away. But I think
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: so something that you're touching on that's so honest and
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: raw and real is that they're really good reasons why
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: we stay away from each other when we're in pain,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: and one of them is because we don't want to
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: cause more harm to someone who's already broken hearted and
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: we can cause more harm. I mean, we can actually
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: say things that compound the pain that the mourner is
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: already experiencing. And here I just want to lift up
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: my dear friend. Colin Campbell wrote a book called Finding
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: the Words about the way that he and his wife, Gail,
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: navigated their grief after the death of their two children
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: were killed by a drunk driver in a horrible crash.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: They were all in the car together, and they were
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: beloved in our community, and the kids became Bar and
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: bat mitzvah Ati car and we knew them very very well.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: And this was such a shattering, tragic loss and a
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: reverberative trauma through the community. And Colin wrote this very
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: powerful book. And in the book he writes about the
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: terrible things that people can say that can really cause
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: grave harm to somebody whose heart is already broken, and
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: he thinks, and he also talks about the cop out
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: of saying there are no words, right, because he says
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: there are words. And he shares this one story that
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: I'll share with you, which I actually share in my
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: book as well, with his permission, obviously, which is that
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: horrible night after the crash when they found out that
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: the kids did not survive. The doctor who was in
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: the running the er immediately pulled the two parents. It
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: was like midnight or one am in this desert hospital.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: And immediately the doctor pulled the parents into this room
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: and sat them down and said, tell me about Ruby
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: and Heart. And he said it was such a gift
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: for her to ask about their children, to ask for
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: to ask to know them just a little bit, to
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: know some piece of their story, and for him like
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: this was the proof that there are words that you
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: can say, even in the most unimaginable circumstances. And so
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: but I think that the fear of saying the wrong
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: thing does keep us away, the fear of the fear
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: that the loss is contagious, that if we in some
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: way get close to somebody who just experienced loss, including
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: especially traumatic or tragic loss like loss of a child,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: it totally destabilizes the person who didn't have the loss,
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: because then we're forced to confront the possibility that we
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: too might have a loss like that. And we do
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: the same thing with divorce, like if we get too
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: close to somebody who's in the midst of divorce, like
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: it makes me feel like I have to ask all
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: these questions about my own marriage, and I have to
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: wonder if things are really okay, you know, as okay
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: as I think they are, and so we pull away
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: from each other. But the fact is that we're not
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: only I mean that is harming the person who's breathed
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: and bereft and broken because they need love at that moment,
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: but it's also making us less human, because we are
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: most human when we step into relationship, not when we
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: pull away from it. And so the hope is that
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: in talking about it and kind of visualizing it, asking
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: us to imagine that that act of stepping toward instead
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: of stepping away, that we can break through some of
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: the fear, which is a real barrier to connection. I
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: also will say that that Gale and Colin did this
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: at their shiva, and it was very powerful because so
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: many people didn't know how to respond to the law
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: of you know, to the loss of the tragic loss
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: that they'd experienced. They actually spent some time and wrote
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: out here's what's helpful and here's what's not and we
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: put it at the front door at the shiva, and
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: basically anyone who came into the house of mourning saw
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: this list of rules, and then when they went back
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: to work, they gave it to people and they said,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: you know, here's what's helpful. We do want you to
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: ask about our children. You're not going to trigger us
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: into our grief. You're already thinking about them, So the
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: only thing that it does is if you don't say
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: are their names, then we just feel like we're alone
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: in our grief. But if you say their names, we
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: feel like you're with us and you're you're aware of
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: our grief. They said, we also we want you to
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: talk about your kids too. We love your kids, we're
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: glad they're alive, but we don't want you to talk
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: about them for an hour and a half forgetting the
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: fact that our kids just died. So they kind of
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: laid out these guidelines that helped all of us navigate.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: And since then, I've shared that with a lot of
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: people who are grieving, especially after tragic loss, and they
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: found that it's so helpful bea because they're so hurt
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: and disappointed, because their friends and community really don't know
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: how to help hold them in their grief. And we
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: found that if you say to people like this is
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: what would be really helpful for me, right now I
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: don't want to be distracted from the grief. I want
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: you to ask me to tell you about my loved one.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: That that people are very grateful for those guidelines because
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: they don't otherwise know, and they don't want to screw
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: it up, and they don't want to cause you more pain.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: They want to be helpful, but they just I think it.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Is often in these situations we're really all in some
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: sense our goal is the same, which is like, you
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: want to be helped.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I want to be helpful.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: I want to say the right thing and it makes
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: you feel better and not something that makes you feel worse,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: and that's what you want to hear. And the problem
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: is the kind of with some people who I know
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: very well, I might have a good sense of what
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: they would need, but with many people I wouldn't. And
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: so then you sort of say nothing, or you avoid them,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: or you don't engage at all because it feels or
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you say one of several things that have been said
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: to me at various times which I find not helpful,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and so you know, it's a yeah. I think the
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: fear of saying the wrong thing is a very powerful problem.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: In the Jewish tradition. The idea what we do in
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: the house of mourning is we literally just go and
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: sit and let the mourner define what that what our
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: time together looks like. So if the mourner wants to
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: tell stories, we tell stories. If the mourner wants to
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: look at pictures and laugh, we laugh. If the mourner
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: wants to cry, we cry. And so it's like you
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: you sort of take your cues from what the person needs,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: which I feel is actually a very helpful practice. But
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: one of the things I love the most about this
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: ancient pilgrimage ritual is that it's in the form of
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: a question that the people who are supporting the bereaved
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: say very simply malach like, what do you want to
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: share with us? Is that what does the world look
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: like from your vantage? And I mean I ask people
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: sometimes tell me about your grief, how are you holding
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: your grief now? When I haven't seen them for two
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: months since the lass, or when I'm checking in and
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: sort of creating an opening where people can share. Asking
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: a question that's an invitation to conversation, instead of trying
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: to fill the space with my theology which might not
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: be your theology, which might feel oppressive or painful, or
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: or my lack of theology which might not suit you, know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: which might undermine a place where you've found comfort in faith.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: So there's so many ways that we can do harm here.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: And I think the wisdom of the tradition is this
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: very simple questioning just curiosity. Can we hold compassion and
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: curiosity as we engage one another in these most fragile
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: and precious moments.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: So I want to pivot a little bit and talk
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: about community. So the book is really it's rooted in
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: your community. You talk a lot about Ecar, the Jewish
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: community that you have built, and it struck me that
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: for many people, as religion has become less important, it
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: can be not has become less a part of our lives,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: not necessarily less important. Where people find this community is
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: less obvious. And I actually this was really reinforced to
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: me a couple of months ago. So our family is not.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Does not practice any religious tradition.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But I was at my daughter's best friends bab Mitzvah
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: and were quite close to their family.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: And the viszpah was amazing.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But at this event I also ran into the wife
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: of another friend and she was part of the same shool,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: and she had come with her three week old baby,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: her sort of first baby, and she was there with
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: this baby, and you know, her husband was there and
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: with this community, and it fell to me it sort
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: of I saw in this moment. I was like, Oh,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: these are the people she's going to call when her family,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: like when her mom leaves, and like, these are her people,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: and they're going to call her back.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: And that's the community. And it was like already right,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: it was like made there, you know it that that
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: was her community.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And and I realized that religion for many people delivers
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: that in a way that it can be hard to create.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: One's own community.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Not that you can't create your family and your friends,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: but this sense of a kind of a broader community
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: of people who are connected to you but not your bestie.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: It is something that we've i think people struggle with
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: outside of religion. And I'm just curious if you have
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: thoughts about creating that kind of experience in a secular context, right.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is the power of community, of a
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: faith community especially, and I've seen it and I felt it.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: There's you know, they're not necessarily your best friends, but
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: you know they're going to show up for you in
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: these really critical moments. So in the book, I talk
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: a little bit about an interpretation of relationship that comes
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: from mimnodies from Rambaum, who's the great medieval Jewish thinker,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: and he writes that there are they're different kinds of
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: friendships and relationships that we root ourselves in. The most
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: basic is a utilitarian relationship, which is it's just functional.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: You need something from me and I need something from you.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: It's mutually beneficial. But as soon as the need disappears,
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: the relationship disappears. And unfortunately, I think people root in
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: relationships like that too often because they're the easiest and
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: they're you know, they're very accessible to us, but they
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: leave us feeling unfulfilled. Those are not people who show
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: up for us for the long haul. The second level
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: are relationships of mutual care and concern. These are people
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: you worry about when you haven't heard from them. Your
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: life is enhanced by being around them. You have a
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: kind of affinity for each other.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: You like each other.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: And I think that most good like really real friendships
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: and real partnerships are in that category. And then the
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: third category are relationships have shared purpose and that's where
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: the two of us us are in relationship because we
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: share a dream of something that's possible that's bigger than
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: both of us. And I feel like the real, the
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: really powerful communal relationships that we should seek to build
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: are at the intersection of two and three, the ones
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: where we have some shared vision, some shared sense of purpose,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: and we also know how to care for each other
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: and how to love each other and how to show
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: up for each other. And that does not have to
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: be in a synagogue or in a church or in
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: a mosque. That could be in a book group, like
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: the shared purpose is expanding our sense of understanding about
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: the world by talking about great fiction together, you know,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: like we. It could be in some kind of like
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: political action group. It could be like these are the
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: people who I'm working on climate justice with and we've
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: been in the work for many, many years. And those
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: relationships are very powerful as long as it also has
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: the dimension of the relationships of mutual care and concern.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Because very often we engauge in relationships of shared purpose,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: but we don't actually care about each other, we don't
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: actually like each other, and so those are like those
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: don't fulfill So what I'm trying. What we try to build,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Eddie Carr in our faith community is can we build
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: something right at the intersection of those two spaces where
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: we share a vision of what a world of love
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: and justice could look like, and we actually take care
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: of each other along the way. So the relationships are
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: not part of this kind of utilitarian framework where we're
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: engaging each other because we have this get out the
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: vote campaign and we need another two hundred volunteers, but
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: because we actually love each other. And in fact that
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: I mean this is a big piece of the book
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: is like is my awareness about ten years in that
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: we talked every single day about building the beloved community
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: out in the world, about what does it mean for
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: us to do everything we can to envision doctor King's
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: vision of a world redeemed, a world of justice and
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: equity and equality, et cetera. And I hadn't talked at
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: all to the community about what it means for us
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: to actually care for each other and show up for
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: each other. And so the transformative moment was when we
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: recognize that, when I recognize that and then realize we're
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: not choosing one or the other, that we have to
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: choose both of these things that happens not only in
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: faith communities. The faith communities have a kind of superstructure
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: that can hold that and hopefully enhance that. Many faith
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: communities don't have that. They don't have either their utilitarian
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: it's a fee for service, like my kid needs a
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: bar mitzvah, and so I'm going to pay for the thing.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: And you know, but the goal of.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: Any community, faith community or otherwise should be can we
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: find our way into relationships of shared purpose where we
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: also are holding mutual concern for one another, where we
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: really do care about each other? And I mean that
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: literally could be your like the the friends you do
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: yoga with, and and like you're cooking, like the group
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: that you you know that you cook or bake with,
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: or it could be your faith community.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: So I think it's.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: Possible everywhere, but we have to know what we're looking for,
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: because these things don't happen accidentally or incidentally very often.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: And then you end up like you leave one school
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: and you go to another, and you wonder why none
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: of the relationships stuck, and it's because they were just
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: utilitarian relationships, Like I needed someone to sit with at
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: the back to school name and you know and have
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: someone to carpool with, and those relationships, you know, if
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: we don't build them into something real, they don't they
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: don't last.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Do you uh? Do you see a lot of people
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: come back to religion after they have kids.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like that need, that sort of need
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: for community gets stronger when there's another generation.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: Before kids, after kids? I mean all the time now
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: we're seeing people it's like, what if their internal factors
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: they're external factors. I think that this loneliness epidemic is
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: as much as we're talking about it now because the
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: Surgeon General has been doing this incredible work on loneliness,
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: I still feel like it's underreported and we're not talking
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: about it enough. But I think that people's hearts are breaking.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: I think COVID exacerbated already very dangerous trends, and so
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: people are are hungry for something that will help feel
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: that help them feel connected. And so I'm seeing that's
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: that's you know, regardless of whether or not they have kids.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: But there's I mean in the faith space, absolutely, once
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: people have kids, there's this very strong sense you know,
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: especially among you know, kind of more secular Jews for example,
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: like I don't you know, I realize now how important
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: my Jewish identity is to me, and I don't know
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: how to teach that to my kid. And so I
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: need to find a place where my kid's going to
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: grow up and feel proud of who we are and
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: of our story. And I don't want their identity to
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: be defined for them by the outside world. I want
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: them to, you know, to come from a place of
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: knowledge and connect and you know, connection and community, and
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: so we do see a lot a lot of that.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, I do want to talk about loneliness because it's
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: it's something that I completely agree. It was something I
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: think we had a problem with before the pandemic made
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: much worse and also in some ways much more salient
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: to people. Like how problematic it is to be alone
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: without like a broader connection, even if we're we have
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: family or you know, people in the house.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, I remember.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: About a few months into the pandemic, maybe like April May,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you know, we really had not been seeing many people.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: But of course I have a partner and kids, so
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: it was but I was out running and I ran
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: by this group of like there was a group and
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: they were they were running together, and I basically ran
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: as fast as I could back to my house and googled, like,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: is there a running group in problem?
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I was just like, I have to find out where
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: these people are.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And indeed there was a group, and they, of course,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: because it was outside, they had kind of figured out
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: some system. And so then I started going to this
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: group because it was like, here are other people, and
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I could see them like two times a week, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: you know, we would run in circles, and like, can
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: you imagine something better than seeing other people and running
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: in circles with them?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Like it's a dream.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: But I think if there's one lesson for me from
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: the pandemic, I mean there are a million lessons, but
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: one of them was just how deep the sort of
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: individual onliness can be and how much we need other people,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: but then how hard it is to find those people.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: I think this is part of why it wasn't the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: case that we snapped our fingers post pandemic and everything
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: got fixed, because there were running groups everywhere.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Was actually people got sort.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Of used to being alone and were then unable to
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: kind of pull back out of it.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're still seeing that now. I mean, it's right,
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: we become habitus. There's this old, old story that I
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: remember learning about that this naturalist took a giant fish
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: tank and put right in the middle of it this
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: piece of glass that was separating it into two sections.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And on one side there were fish that were predator fish,
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: and on the other side were like the delicious, edible
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: fish that the predator fish would want to eat. And
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: when the experiment started, the predator fish would just race
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: over with all its might to try to grab the
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: other fish, but bang its head into the glass wall,
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: and then it would pull back and then try again,
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: and then it would pull back and try again. And
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: at some point the predator fish learned that it couldn't
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: get to the edible, delicious fish on the other side,
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: and they lifted up the glass divider, and they had
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: become so habituated to their limitations that they then never
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: went back to eating these other fish in the tank.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: And I thought about that a lot during those during
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: those years, like, are we becoming habituated to a partners
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: right now and to you know, like not not being
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: able to connect with each other?
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: And I do.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I think that that's a real pain point. And I think,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: especially in kids, the damage is so profound we've seen that.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: I mean there's there's you know, a whole generation of
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: kids who like their high school experience was in their
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: room on zoom like double devising, and and a lot
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: of young adults, and I mean there's just there's a
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: significant amount of impact that to those years now that
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: I think we won't know, probably for years, just how
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: profound the impact is. But for me, one of the
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: one of the most striking moments of the pandemic was
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: when we started calling people in the community just to
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: check in, and this one young woman in her early
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: thirties said to me, the only time anyone ever knew
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: if she was alive or dead was when she would
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: come to e car on Shabbat morning and people would
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: see her and say Shabat shalom and welcome her, you know,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: like that was it. And she said, now I don't
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: have that either, and she's that I literally could disappear
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: tomorrow and nobody would even know, like who would even
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: find me? And how long would it take for them
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: to find Mean, it was terrifying to realize that she
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: was I think she was speaking for many many people
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: during this time, and you don't quickly move from that
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: back into Oh, the restrictions have been lifted. We can
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: all go back out again now. And so I think
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: we're all really tender hearted from this, and the impact
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: is profound and real, and it's going to it's going
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: to continue to take time.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: I think. Do you think there's a way?
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things people people moved to
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: rely on technology in a lot of ways during that period,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: And you know, it makes me wonder whether there's a
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: way for our phones to be helpful rather than harmful.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would say on the whole, probably the
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: pitches more like phones are keeping us away from each other.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: But is there some frame there that is it all bad?
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Of course not, of course not, it's not all bad.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: I mean I like this.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Look, I have a particular relationship to technology because I'm
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: an observant Jew and we don't use technology on Shabbat,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: and so that means from the time the sun sets
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: on Friday until the time the stars come out on
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Saturday night twenty five hours, we're totally offline. And I
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: have to say, as a parent of teenagers, this is
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: like the greatest gift.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: And I will say, my daughter's best friend.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: They also observe Shabbat, and I'm very frequently thinking like,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: maybe we could also do that.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: It's incredible and it's such a gift. I mean, and
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: my kids they're not even like sneaking into their room
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: to look. I mean, I think they all understand and
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: appreciate how precious it is to have that time without
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: the devices, because they're so ubiquitous, and you know, and
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: they're so much we're so attached to them throughout the week,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: and so I absolutely love the time without them. But
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: during during COVID, when we you know, when we could
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: no longer meet in person, we had this we had
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: this particular challenge because I haven't opened a computer or
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: a phone on Shabbat in twenty five years, and suddenly
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: that was the only way that we could connect with people.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: And so I was, you know, I was not online
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: for one week, and then another week, and then another week,
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: and I started to realize this wasn't going to be
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: over in a couple more weeks, that this was we
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: could be in this for years. And eventually, one day,
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: which happened to be one of the holidays, about six
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: weeks into the pandemic, when we do a memorial service
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: and I realized that I had trained this community that
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: we bring our grief to each other and then we
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: look at each other and say, malach, what does the
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: world look like from your vantage point? Who are you
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: holding today? Tell me about your loved one, Like that's
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: part of the of the spiritual connection in this community.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: But I was nowhere to be found because I wasn't
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: going online, and so our community had gathered online but
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: without the rabbis, essentially because I couldn't do it. And
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: finally I just went online and I opened up my
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: screen and there were two hundred people online like basically
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: waiting for somebody to say to them, tell me about
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: your loved one. And literally, one by one, the people
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: online just started saying the names of their loved one
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: and just something that they were holding about them this
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: time in there. And so now think back to my
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: thirty something year old who's lonely in her house so low,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: you know, and maybe she's also holding grief and she
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: literally has nobody to talk to about it, and now
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden, through these devices, she can say
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: to me, I'm really missing my mom right now, you know,
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: and it's terrible, and I can see her and honor
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: her and give her a blessing, and we could bless
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: each other.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: And so I started.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: I figured out a way where I could have minimal,
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: you know, electronic engagement like preset things. And I did
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: a pretty good job. I did it outside of the house,
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: so my kids didn't you know, didn't have to encounter it.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: But I went online after that for the rest of
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: the pandemic Anshabbat and it felt like a real connection,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: like the technology was a godsend. Actually, I mean, it
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: felt like we were actually able to be in each
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: other's homes. And in fact, there was even more intimacy
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: than usual because we were in each other's homes literally,
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: like we could see each other's living rooms and you know,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: you could see my foosball table back there, and and
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: so I don't think it's all bad. I'm very concerned
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: about the toll that all of this technology is taking
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: on us. I'm very worried about AI and you know,
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: the kind of hubris and in the development of the
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: technology that ultimately is doing grave harm not only to
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: teenagers but also to all of us. And at the
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: same time, it's also a tool for connection, and so
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: can we can we figure out ways to use it
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: for the good because you know it's here and we
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: can actually connect there. There are all these these virtual
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: well min y'a name now, like virtual gatherings of ten
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: people or more so that people can grieve together every
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: single morning, And what a beautiful way for people to
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: connect if it's not safe for them to be together
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: in person, or if they live far away. It's I
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: do think that there's a lot of blessing there.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a mix.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: It's like when you like technology for your kids, Like
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: nine hours of you know, SpongeBob a day is not good,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: but like facetiming Gramma is great, and like, how do
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: we find how do we find the balance between the
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: nine hours of YouTube and the FaceTime and Grandmo.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: There's got to be something, something in the middle.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, I have a few rapid fire I have a
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: few rapid fire questions to end us on. Okay, all right,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: so I'm a young parent. This is not well, I
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: am a young parent, young ish anyway, I'm going to
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: start that question again.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: This is hypothetic question.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I'm a young parent in need of community or spiritual fulfillment.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I want to join a temple, at church, a mosque, something,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: But I have no idea where to start.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Where do I start?
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: I think it's important to root yourself in a community
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: with people with shared values, and so I think it's
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: not just about finding people, but about finding people who
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: who you can share a vision of what the world
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: can and should look like. And so I would start
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: by finding the shared values community and then see if
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: those people also love and care for each other, and
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: if not, keep looking.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: What is the worst depiction of religion on TV or
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: in a movie, the news? What's the best? Do you
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: have a best?
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: No?
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: I do?
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that the worse than any fictional
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: depiction of religion is what we actually is, what religious
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: people actually do to each other in the name of God.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: And it's and it's it's quite uh and it's quite terrible.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: The best depiction, I mean, there are extraordinary leaders of
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: faith who are finding their way to each other and
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: and trying together to build a more just and loving society.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: And if you can catch a little windows of them.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not thinking of a movie or a
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: TV show right now, but every now and then you
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: see a couple of people on a you know, that
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: are brought together on CNN to like talk about, you know,
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: how they're willing to still work together. And I feel like, yeah,
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: that's what we need.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: More of that, please, small snippets of CNN. So my
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: last question.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: One of the things that is very just incredibly well
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: done in your book is that there are a lot
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: of real life anecdotes and there are.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: A lot of parallels from the Torah, and it really like.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Fits together and makes this very very old text seem
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: like it could have been written, you know, yesterday about
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: our current which of course is the point of the book.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: But I'm curious.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: How we take that kind of approach to make spiritual
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: life more relevant for people who are young.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: Now, well, it's I mean, these traditions, these ancient traditions
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: are ours. They are they are our inheritance. Anybody who's
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: alive in the world today can access them, and the
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: fact that they have thousands of years of history to
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: them only makes them more rich with human experience. But
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: I think the idea of taking on ancient rituals and
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: translating them into a vocabulary that works for our generation
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: is absolutely critical. And here I just will quote one
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: of my teachers, A Benedictine monk named David steinel Rost,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: who said that every religious tradition was like an erupting volcano.
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: When it began, it began with this incredible, fiery eruption
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: of some powerful spiritual mystical insight, and then the lava
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: descended down the side of the mountain, and by the
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: time it got to the base, it settled, and after
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: a couple hundred years it basically became cold dead rock.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: Anybody who's walking by would have no idea the fire
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: that used to be within, the life giving fire. And
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: he said, the job of any practitioner today is to
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: take out your chisel and start to pick away at
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: the cold dead rock and find the fire inside. And
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: I think that's a real charge for us alive in
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: this world today, Like get out your chisel and start
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: working on these rituals to figure out how they can
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: be life giving and life sustaining because they didn't survive
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: for thousands of years for nothing. They're here and they're
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: in our hands to be used to help us live
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: more meaningful and more purposeful lives, and also to help
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: us respond to a world of great crisis and pain
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: and help us find a path toward healing.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Rabbi.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: I think the book is amazing and I think everyone
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: should read it, and I'm just it was really a
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: privilege to talk to you about this.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thank you. It's such a joy
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: to be with you.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Parent Data is produced by tamorro Avishai with support from
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: the parent Data team and PI Rex. If you have
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: thoughts on this episode, please join the conversation on my
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Instagram at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: support the show, become a subscriber to the parent Data
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: newsletter at parentdata dot org, where I write weekly posts
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: on everything to do with parents and data to help
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: you make better, more informed parenting decisions. There are a
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: lot of ways you can help people find out about us.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Leave a rating or review on Apple Podcasts, Text your
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: friend about something you learned from this episode. Debate your
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: mother in law about the merits of something parents do
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: now that is totally different from what she did. Post
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: a story to your Instagram debunking a panic headline of
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: your own. Just remember to mention the podcast too, Write
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Penelope
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Write mom, We'll see you next time.