Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / Bonus: Are Your Friendships Surviving the Digital Age? Likes, Memes & What Really Matters (Nina on The Visibility Standard with Jazzmyn Proctor)

Transcript

Bonus: Are Your Friendships Surviving the Digital Age? Likes, Memes & What Really Matters (Nina on The Visibility Standard with Jazzmyn Proctor) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Dere Nina Conversations About Friendship.
0:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You are here for a bonus episode.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I really enjoy sharing the occasional episode on my own feed where I was a guest because it's a completely different vibe.
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the one answering the questions instead of asking the questions.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Although sometimes I end up asking the question back.
0:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I just can't help myself.
0:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I was on Jasmine Procter's podcast, the Visibility Standard, a lot of what we focus on in this episode is what I would label modern friendship and my friendship with Jasmine is a great example of a modern friendship we met online.
0:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we met on TikTok and although I'm quite a bit older than Jasmine, I have a pile of kids in this house, old kids, teenagers.
0:42
[SPEAKER_01]: As she doesn't have kids, we have lots in common, love a lot of the same shows,
0:48
[SPEAKER_01]: We text in between.
0:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a great walk and talk on the phone the other day.
0:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But that will took time.
0:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll just meet someone online and then become friends immediately.
0:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've lots of online friends that never go to the next level.
0:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It just stays where it is.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's fine, too.
1:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That has value to.
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But Jasmine's been a wonderful friend that I've gotten to know a little bit more all the time.
1:08
[SPEAKER_01]: We have more to go.
1:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I am sure.
1:10
[SPEAKER_01]: She very graciously is allowing me to share this episode from last year.
1:14
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked a lot about something I dabble in here and there when I'm talking about it as the host, but it get into it a little more when I'm a guest.
1:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a lot of the bad feelings that come up when people have a very online business.
1:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a real estate agent selling houses and you have a big Instagram presence.
1:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's all kinds of different ways that your business can show up online.
1:36
[SPEAKER_01]: The expectations that people might have of their friends were not in that business.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You might not realize your friends are carrying some of these expectations.
1:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually try to be a voice of reason who was trying to get
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: people who have an online presence to let go of those expectations are appreciating something and expecting something are a universal part of really makes a big difference on how you treat your friends and face them and think about them.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm here to defend the position of being reasonable and Jasmine agrees with me and I was very happy to hear that.
2:08
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about other modern friendship issues too, such as relying on memes, maybe a little too much to communicate.
2:13
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're never seeing your real life, friend, and person ever, and you are always relying on memes, that might be something to look at.
2:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not here to do any actual measurements or give you any answer to what is the quote-unquote right number, because I don't know, I don't think anyone knows.
2:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just something to think about if you are never seeing your friends in person.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: and we also talk a little bit about forgiveness.
2:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I will have the full episode here and you can also in the show notes find other ways to see Jasmine's work.
2:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, her podcast is the visibility standard and she's at Jasmine Proctor on TikTok and Instagram.
2:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see that spelling in the show notes and now I give you Jasmine as the host.
2:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody, welcome to all our parts if you are new here.
2:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I am Jasmine the host and I am so excited for my guest today.
2:57
[SPEAKER_00]: She is podcast host of Dear Nina conversation about friendship.
3:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Nina Badson, I'm so excited to have you here.
3:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me and you pronounced my last name perfectly.
3:08
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't always go that way.
3:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you.
3:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I really try to harsh pronunciation because it's so important.
3:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, I know.
3:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I have the same pressure as the podcast host.
3:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So tell us about how did you get into the topic about friendship, you've been podcasting, you've been a writer for years on the topic.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: How did this become your passion?
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: As a writer, a freelance writer, you've leaned into things that you're really interested in.
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I've always been interested in friendship a long time ago.
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say easily 1819 years ago, I actually wrote a novel that never got published and never should.
3:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very grateful it didn't, but it got close.
3:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost got an agent with it.
3:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I spent years on this book.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was about a friendship breakup.
3:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It was about a woman who was dumped by her best friend.
3:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she ends up connecting with two other women who were later in different parts of that best friend's life dumped by the same friend.
4:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the three of them bond over the fact that they've all been dropped by this woman.
4:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in my 20s when I wrote that.
4:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I put that aside for a while.
4:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That was fiction.
4:10
[SPEAKER_01]: In nonfiction, I'd written some things about friendship, but as I had more kids, I have four kids.
4:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I ended up writing about parenting a lot, because that's what I was in the thick of.
4:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had articles in magazines and different places, and I would write about parenting.
4:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when my oldest was 10, it became very clear that I did not want to write about parenting anymore for two reasons.
4:30
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I was living it, I was in the thick of it.
4:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to also have my work be about it.
4:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And also the kids are becoming more aware.
4:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was non-fiction.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a lot of like surface type of articles and stuff.
4:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wasn't necessarily writing about them, but yet you are referring to them in some way, shape, or form.
4:45
[SPEAKER_01]: My oldest, I could just tell you a couple of times that come up in front of other people, like things I'd written about, like I'd written about his piano recital one time, and he was like, you wrote about that, and I was like, okay, I could just see the writing on the wall, and I did not want to keep going with that.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Around that same time, a couple of women who were starting a website for women,
5:05
[SPEAKER_01]: wanted to focus on friendship and they wanted a friendship advice columnist.
5:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd had other advice columns.
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I had done a baby name advice column for a different website.
5:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a lot of fun.
5:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Blood baby names, but I was out of babies to name.
5:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So I liked that advice voice.
5:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I also wrote an advice column for writers about how to use Twitter.
5:22
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like a million years ago back in the early days.
5:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked that voice.
5:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they hired me to write a friendship advice column as a little hesitant at first.
5:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You can imagine because I'm not a therapist.
5:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a social worker
5:33
[SPEAKER_01]: who am I?
5:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm obsessed with this topic and always have them, but they were like, no, we'll make that the thing that you're just like a regular person who has an odd obsession with this topic.
5:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You're someone who will listen to someone's venture problems endlessly and that I enjoy analyzing these things.
5:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That was back in 2014.
5:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I worked for them for about four years and I just brought it to my own site when they changed directions in 2021.
5:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I started the podcast because that's the direction of, do people read anymore?
5:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't even know.
6:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I read still, but
6:01
[SPEAKER_01]: it seemed like that's where the audience was going and it was a natural podcast to do and I was a very early podcast listener.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of knew I wanted one.
6:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I had to wait to have a friendship book to have a podcast and then I realized, wait, says who?
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I did it and I you know, podcasting's hard.
6:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a huge learning curve, but I love it now.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm like teaching other people how to podcast and I'm into it.
6:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I hear like early on a lot of your inspiration was pulled from your own life.
6:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And I imagine that was therapeutic for you like that allowed space to process.
6:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about it.
6:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, you know, it's funny.
6:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I had not thought about it that way, but I think you're right, especially when I was writing that novel.
6:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was all about this painful friendship breakup I had had and I think it did help me process it and then in the early parts of the advice column I was hearing a lot from people who had had breakups.
6:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That was seem to be the focus for a while I have really shifted my focus not that I won't talk to people about their friendship breakups or ends of friendship But as I received information, I get a lot of anonymous letters and they're truly anonymous I prefer them to be anonymous.
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a form on my website.
7:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not require any mail address
7:14
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of forms do, so people have to go out of their way to make one up or sign up for some anonymous type of email that doesn't have their name.
7:23
[SPEAKER_01]: To write to me, you really don't have to do that.
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So you really could pour your heart out.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't use them all because the only way for me to respond without email addresses either it used to be in the column.
7:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I still do those in my newsletter on sub-sac or on the podcast.
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have a Facebook group where people also write in their problems.
7:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I back to your question about how I process things, I do think it helped me process the breakups, but I feel like I'm trying to help people sort of think of friendship beyond that, sort of before the breakup, how to be a good friend, and how to make friends, keeping friends and making friends are two different topics, and then losing a friend is a third topic.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So I see friendship and you know, in your work, I bet you see this too, you'll tell me in these three buckets and they're not the same.
8:06
[SPEAKER_01]: The tips for making a friend are not the same as keeping a friend.
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same as how to end a friendship.
8:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I never talk about them all in my podcast in one episode.
8:13
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of my episodes are in that middle bucket, keeping friends.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, I think there's so much more information.
8:21
[SPEAKER_00]: We're having so many more conversations around friendship breakups.
8:25
[SPEAKER_00]: The grief, the loss aspect, a lot of the nostalgia that comes up, what the friendship meant to the person.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But we don't do a lot of guidance around making new friends and maintaining the friendships.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We get to these endpoints where we're processing
8:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to figure out how we could have done things better and we can be proactive if we choose to hold on to friendships, to cultivate new friendships, to create depth in these already standing friendships.
8:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I see, we know each other from social media.
8:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I see so many patterns on social media and then it's hard to know if how real it is or does the algorithm just showing me things that I'm already watching a lot of what I see in social media that's coming at me I think is from somewhat younger people and they seem to be really distraught over what I call a confusion about reciprocity.
9:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It could even be bitterly about social media.
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wonder if you see this, a lot of people get on there and they're very upset about their friends not liking their posts, for example.
9:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a huge topic that comes in front of me that's what people write to me about it.
9:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just see it.
9:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That's me just a symbol of,
9:36
[SPEAKER_01]: the issue out there of not knowing what's reasonable to expect from your friends.
9:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Your friends, I, I really try to tell people are not your fans.
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: They do not sign up to be your customer, your, your follower, their, your friends.
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not your follower.
9:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't necessarily want to sit there and watch every one of your things and like and comment, I mean, that's be a part-time job to do that for everyone's.
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other side, some of them might say, well, what's the big deal?
10:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So press like, well, maybe they don't use social media that way.
10:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they use them more like TV.
10:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So they just kind of consume the scroll and like doing this with my finger.
10:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm scrolling, they're not there to interact.
10:13
[SPEAKER_01]: People will say, well, I see them like other people's posts.
10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: The second, you are testing your friends like that.
10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You are watching how they behave with other friends.
10:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Each relationship is different.
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good example.
10:23
[SPEAKER_01]: The social media and how we demand certain things from our friends,
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You could, I suppose, say to a friend, it would really mean a lot to me if you'd like to post once in a while.
10:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You could, but now what?
10:38
[SPEAKER_01]: That might seem like a little petty.
10:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we counting the likes?
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we keeping more?
10:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, those of us who have podcasts or other people on there who are selling things on social media, it means a lot to them, but how much time are you spending on your friend's job?
10:52
[SPEAKER_01]: did you go sit and watch them do a court case in the in the room are you if they're doctor or nurse are you sitting in the room being like good job on that you know still stitches you to it's a lot to ask I think to be somebody's forever fan and follower I have been itching to talk about this all in a bit
11:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about it!
11:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Because when I started making content, podcasting, starting my business, there was no expectation that my friends would then turn into my fans.
11:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have seen that discourse.
11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: A like is free, a repost is free.
11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I love my friends, but they are not my
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, as a business owner, I'm limiting myself.
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's not my audience.
11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like an unspoken obligation that I don't need to give them.
11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Their friendship, it wasn't based on content before.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would I base it on the engagement of my content now?
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like an unfair.
11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: expectation, I think, and it turns the reciprocity to a more of a space of give and take than true reciprocity, genuine reciprocity.
12:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very, very dangerous and very common.
12:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, like, I kind of started out by saying, I'm not sure if it's horribly common or I just TikTok keeps showing me people in that discourse, but I'm glad you're seeing it too.
12:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't feel like I'm imagining things that people really argue with me about it.
12:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes when I get brave and I have the energy, I don't do it a lot because I'm not care of argue with people on the internet.
12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Once in a while, I get in some of the comments and be like, I don't think that's a great way to measure your friendship.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And they'll be like, exactly what you just said.
12:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's so easy to like, a like is free.
12:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I'll see other posts that are like, here's how you can support your, you know, author, friend, your podcast, or friend, your influencer, friend, and that assumes that people are out there just searching for ways that they can support their friends businesses.
12:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people just want to be friends.
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: in real life.
12:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not a good idea to have that be the measure.
13:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think thinking about your friend's job flipping it is a good way to think about it.
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: How often are you then asking about your friend's job?
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Let alone being there to clap at them.
13:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, how long are you sitting in their classroom when they're teaching a lesson?
13:13
[SPEAKER_00]: How often are you watching them?
13:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, do therapy.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: If your friends are there, but it's like the expectation is so imbalance.
13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I see a lot on threads, especially especially in the entrepreneurship space where they're like your friends aren't your friends if they're not sharing your content or handing out your business card
13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, support is free and that's not my customer.
13:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what we signed up for the friendship to now be my, my fan club.
13:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not working on team.
13:51
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not your market.
13:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's how you support a friend who's starting a business.
13:54
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I would say.
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I should do it the post about this.
13:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's how to support your friend.
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: If they have a new book out, they have a podcast, they are just trying to start a new business.
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: They're in a private therapy practice and they're looking for new clients.
14:06
[SPEAKER_01]: The way to support them is to be their friend, which is, ask them how it's going.
14:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I always say, I don't care if my friends listen to my podcast.
14:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I do care however if we've been on an hour walk and no point if they say, how is it going?
14:18
[SPEAKER_01]: How is a podcast going?
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see you.
14:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I see your author working really hard.
14:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You like it still.
14:23
[SPEAKER_01]: There's ways to just talk to your
14:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Just be a friend and yeah, I'm sure you would appreciate right if someone said to you, how is the business going?
14:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have enough clients?
14:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you wish you were working more?
14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you wish you were working less?
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: How is the podcast?
14:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Has it been what you wanted it to be?
14:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want people to talk to me about what I'm doing just like I ask about their jobs.
14:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't expect them to
14:47
[SPEAKER_01]: constantly be leading me reviews everywhere, or I mean it would just be annoying.
14:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't be annoying to your friends.
14:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think there is another layered concept that comes with this conversation in that.
15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: when people get into spaces where they're building something for themselves, their relationship to their friends, who maybe aren't in the entrepreneur space or in the social media space changes.
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that you've seen or heard?
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there is an awkwardness when your friend decides to be a very online person.
15:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel very self-conscious personally.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: That's something I do
15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it has a tape to post.
15:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually had somebody on my podcast recently, his name's Harlan Cohen.
15:36
[SPEAKER_01]: He does a lot of work with college kids and giving tips about college kids.
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a huge following.
15:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like half a million people.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's gotten to the point where he just gets out there and says whatever he wants.
15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, people love it.
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I was talking to him and I was like, kind of, what should I could do that?
15:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I got a lot to say.
15:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I've become an outgoing person, but before every single moment I post,
15:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I think about my real friends and my family.
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh, are they going to make fun of me?
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to, even though I know they love me?
16:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I do wonder sometimes, oh, are they like, what's need not doing?
16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they rolling their eyes?
16:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I almost wish that they didn't follow me at all in a way.
16:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, we need those initial followers.
16:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But I wonder if I'd be freer if they didn't.
16:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't even really think I answered your question.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was something that was on my mind.
16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking about how the relationship changes a little bit when
16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: people are seeing your online self and you're trying to be the same person but you're not going to be a thousand percent.
16:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to be a little more up online.
16:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're a little bit of work.
16:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I always do worry that I seem different or something.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I am, but who knows?
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that, I mean, that does answer my question.
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when I was first starting, you know, it's like, what am I friends thinking, what are they going to say and I was much more conscientious about how often I posted.
16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I don't want to take up their feeds with myself.
16:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, I'm the same way.
17:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, enough have been out.
17:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, she's so too much.
17:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But we don't want to be like that, right?
17:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't advance your own stuff if you're doing it in order to avoid people thinking negative things about you.
17:11
[SPEAKER_01]: How man, like, now give me myself therapy right here.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, once I got more to a point where I was thinking about the people in my real life, so much, it did give me the permission and the space to be more free online, to be more consistent online, to be more consistent even with podcasting.
17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what's also helped that is building real friends and the online entrepreneur space who are doing the same thing
17:42
[SPEAKER_00]: and they get it and so that's where for me at least that's where I've seen the evolution I hear the shift in a lot of people's friendships where they still have friends who aren't in the online space but in order to grow to really see how this part of your life can expand it's also creating community with folks who are who are doing the same thing who are in the same season of life as you
18:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's how we met, right?
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And that makes a lot of sense to have basically colleagues.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: When you work alone, like this, it's nice to develop those colleagues.
18:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think those are real relationships.
18:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel that way too?
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: If they are real relationship, they're different.
18:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They're probably not going to show up to your parents' funeral, you know, not that kind of relationship.
18:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But these are the ties that I think round out our life, not everybody needs to be best, best friend that you speak to every day that will show up on your doorstep or soup.
18:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important to have a couple of people like that and then it is good to develop these other relationships and for people like us or other people who have online lives.
18:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a more appropriate place to expect more of a reciprocity in.
18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I do think if I met someone online and that was the basis of our relationship and we were both in.
18:59
[SPEAKER_01]: were both podcasts or whatever, and I was constantly like liking their stuff and they were never doing it back, that's a situation where I might go, okay, I'm going to probably move on the next person, because I think I do expect without even having said it out loud until now, probably I do expect some level of reciprocity in that.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how you grow that connection.
19:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not appropriate for our real-life friends.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: People need to learn the difference.
19:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't even think I really deeply thought about these two until this conversation, which is so important.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: There is that I guess real life, genuine reciprocity and then online space reciprocity.
19:38
[SPEAKER_00]: the two.
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're online.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you have the same goals that I do if I'm here to help you grow, expand, if like, we're having this conversations and you know the boat that I'm in because you're also in that same boat.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you would return the return the gesture.
19:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and see how we can support one another.
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is definitely a little bit more of an expectation.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a friend who I met in the online space who wouldn't engage with my content at all and I would consistently engage with her and reshare her stuff and all of this.
20:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely felt more slated in that sense versus if my friends that are in my real life who don't engage in social media the same way are not resharing and reposting.
20:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
20:29
[SPEAKER_00]: The friendship on and so then to not have that reciprocity in that specific space.
20:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay.
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that feels bad.
20:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had that for sure.
20:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had that.
20:39
[SPEAKER_01]: We're even if it's something.
20:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're just like being really honest here, which is good.
20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's good to like get the pettiness out.
20:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not petty.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: There's many people you could connect with that line.
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's sort of no reason to be chasing someone if it's not being returned.
20:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to
20:55
[SPEAKER_01]: need to be cheating someone like their celebrity and then I feel like this little peon.
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we don't need to make ourselves feel that way, unless it's an actual celebrity, but that's different.
21:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a, that is it a, I don't know what that, in turn of why that reciprocity is important to expect it.
21:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I think is based on the foundational aspects of what you're
21:23
[SPEAKER_00]: grabbing coffee going for a walk, meeting their family, talking about kids, you're basing it off of a different foundation.
21:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's almost a very clear and tangible, oh, I support you, but you don't support me.
21:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is fair to say in that in that specific space.
21:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It isn't how I think is like you're probably not even
21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: close enough really to even say anything about it.
21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So you just sort of, I guess you do what we would do in real life, kind of that quiet quitting.
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: That's probably how you handle that.
21:55
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I would handle it and probably how I have handle it, which is I stopped liking their stuff as much.
22:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It probably won't doesn't show up in my feet as much then.
22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm not purposely ignoring you.
22:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It truly is not in front of me anymore.
22:07
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many other people and you just kind of move on.
22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a bummer when you've actually developed a rapport with
22:15
[SPEAKER_01]: the app, like you've emailed and other things.
22:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time, sometimes people get a little too self-important.
22:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just like, okay, I'm moving on.
22:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But does engaging so much in the online space also contribute to the level of disconnection that I feel is felt?
22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: on a larger scale because we're talking about being the most connected we've ever been.
22:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We have threads, we have TikTok, we have Instagram, we have all of these means in connection and as so many people have spoken on, we're also in a loneliness epidemic where people are just feeling so isolated.
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
22:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's all these memes out there that I see that make me bananas.
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like them.
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't agree with them.
23:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone's like, oh, they're so funny.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they're not funny.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And it will say stuff like it's always about cancer.
23:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's a couple different buckets, but it's all the same thing.
23:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It will be sort of like hoping someone your friend cancels.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You've seen this kind of stuff.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's under your so excited when your friend cancels.
23:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That's usually said in a more funny way.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: There'll be ones about like, oh, modern friendship is sending your friend, you know, 50 TikToks, you know, at two in the morning, but never seeing each other in person.
23:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't like, that doesn't have to be, no, it doesn't have to be that.
23:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It really shouldn't be that.
23:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That can be part of what adds levity to your friendship.
23:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm talking about people that you may be live in town with you.
23:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not seeing.
23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You are instead just sending stuff back on board.
23:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And listen, I send stuff back on board with my friends too.
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: try to push people.
23:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to see your friends sometimes.
23:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not okay to say that adult friendship and adult life is just sending each other memes.
23:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It shouldn't be.
23:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I acknowledged that is what it has become for some people, but that's a bad idea and it will lead to disconnection and loneliness.
24:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It will attribute your muscle of what it means to show up for somebody in person.
24:13
[SPEAKER_01]: just go for a walk, not cancel.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Show up being adult.
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Do what you say you're going to do.
24:18
[SPEAKER_01]: You have it on your calendar.
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You do it.
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You push other things aside and anybody who says to me, go, I don't have time to see my friends.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's what's behind those means.
24:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This is ideal.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, we don't have time to see our friends.
24:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, we have to just send each other these things.
24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Show me your screen time.
24:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will tell you whether you actually have time to see your friends.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do not buy it.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: If you could put that phone down,
24:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it for myself.
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on the phone all the time.
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: If you could put your phone down for an hour, maybe not all at once, if you shave off the five minutes that you're constantly checking and sending and copying the link and sending whatever, I bet you could go for a walk and at least talk to your friend on the phone.
24:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet you could stretch in your room while you're talking to your friend on the phone.
24:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think talking on the phone these days is a huge step up from
25:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Just texting or just sending means back and forth.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So that counts, that's a start.
25:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's make time to talk to our friends on the phone.
25:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you can make time to see people on person.
25:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But you have to make the time, which is one of the topics I definitely want to talk to you about, is scheduling.
25:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So speaking to what you're saying about being disconnected and person, it's, I do think people have time.
25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But you have to make the time and you have to schedule it.
25:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not sexy.
25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not fun and exciting.
25:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And it could be less minute.
25:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be, you look to your calendar the next day and you're like, oh, wait, I haven't opening here.
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me reach out to three different people and see if somebody wants to meet for coffee just so I can remember what it's like to actually be like people in person.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we have maybe normalized cancel culture, a little as a preservation of self care of rest.
25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: All of those things are important.
25:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have gotten to a point where we need to show up for
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: are for, if we want that connection, if we say that's what we're interested in, then we have to show up.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We should also want to show up.
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's more of an indicator on where the friendship is, if you are seeing it on your calendar and you're like, oh, I need to go hang out with that's a, that's ambivalence that's a completely different conversation.
26:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we look
26:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and a lot of times, even if you don't feel like it, because then happens, right?
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just so comfortable at home, we're doing our work.
26:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about people who work at home.
26:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's an effort to get up and stop what you're doing, and then nothing's just an hour, right?
26:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say you're beating someone for lunch or a walk or coffee for an hour.
26:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It's 10, 15 minutes to get there, depending where you live, more things are closer here.
26:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, if you live somewhere with a lot of traffic, okay, maybe it's a half hour to get the whole thing could be two hours, and that isn't interruptive.
26:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that.
26:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Or if you're going at night.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: What you're doing when you don't cancel and you push yourself and you go, even though you don't feel like it is you are making an investment in your future yourself who will feel terrible if you don't have friends I do think that way sometimes I am doing this walk to invest in this friendship so that this friendship is here when I need it when I want it I don't think any of us are going to look back on our lives and say oh I wish I
27:16
[SPEAKER_01]: scroll down, ticked up for an extra hour a day.
27:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I always sound like such a bore.
27:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I scroll as much as the next person, but I do the fret of force myself to put it down and engage in my real life.
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We are not here on this earth to just be entertained at all times.
27:32
[SPEAKER_01]: We are here to connect with other people.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything that's happening on our phone, whether it's work or entertainment, it's part of life.
27:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But we are actually here to be in relationship with other human beings and we put ourselves because it's much easier in the short run to just be entertained or continue your work.
27:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's harder to make that investment, but it's worthwhile.
27:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
27:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It's worth so much more than the time that I spend scrolling on TikTok or scrolling on Instagram because I can do that A, anytime, and B, it isn't offering me true connection.
28:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not offering me true engagement.
28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's offering me a really temporary feeling of being connected of knowing what's going on out there.
28:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not being an active participant in what's going on.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just an observer in what's going on.
28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when we think about ways to maintain friendships is show up even when it's,
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: inconvenient even when you feel tired show up.
28:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's that investment for the long run.
28:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you having to, and I don't know if you can talk about this, but are you having to push clients in this direction?
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this something that comes up a lot?
28:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually, I think in like the therapy space,
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: looking at your as the people pleasing is looking at your network and saying who do I want to say yes to and who do I want to say no to.
29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens is when we have a lot of things that we want to say no to in those little bit of yeses, everything feels like a no.
29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: because we are expanding so much energy on the things we want to say no to.
29:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We do not have energy for the things that we want to say yes to.
29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's where I talked about the ambivalence to being more intentional in the quality time with your friends.
29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so much in the therapy space is you get to choose your friendships and you get to be intentional and as you get older it truly is
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Quality over quantity because we only have 24 hours in a day eight of those are dedicated to work
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We have kids, partners, families at home.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to carve out some time for them as well.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a really limited space for friendships.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if those friendships are not exciting, they're not exciting, they're not inspiring you, you don't look forward to spending time with them.
30:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There needs to be some evaluation as to,
30:12
[SPEAKER_00]: why you still have that person in your life and and what needs to shift in order for you to feel more excited about the friend time in your calendar.
30:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Such a good way of framing it.
30:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably for some people it is an issue with the actual relationship.
30:28
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason they're not looking forward to seeing that person and I wonder if for some people they wouldn't look forward to seeing anyone.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: They've gotten so comfortable and we keep talking
30:39
[SPEAKER_01]: are people cancelling because they don't want to see that person or they cancels because they don't want to see anyone they just want to watch a show.
30:47
[SPEAKER_01]: They just want to not have to give and take.
30:50
[SPEAKER_01]: They want to just kind of take.
30:51
[SPEAKER_01]: When I think of entertainment, it's like taking.
30:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to give much.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You just are entertained.
30:55
[SPEAKER_01]: In a relationship, you have to give some.
30:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to ask questions.
30:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting.
30:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm about to record an episode
31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so curious as a therapist, what you think of this, I think people are going to get addicted to it because you don't have to engage in a two way people think it knows you so well it asks you endless questions there's no human being who's going to ask you as many questions as chat GPTS to but you don't ask back it's a very one sided relationship and I think it's going to
31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: make this even worse is going to make people social muscles even weaker because they only know what it feels like to have somebody endlessly interested in you.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how real life is.
31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to also be interested in the other person.
31:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Our people staying home because it's too much work to actually have to be in real relationship with people.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people forget that you build the ChadGPT to basically be an extension of yourself and so even when people say, oh ChadGPT's a great replacement for therapy.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: No, because ChadGPT isn't challenging you.
32:00
[SPEAKER_00]: ChadGPT is there to appease you, to help you process something, but ChadGPT is only as smart as you tell it to be.
32:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone loves someone who's just loves to hear everything you have to say and is that falling all over your every word and just dying to hear more information from you.
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people aren't like that, right?
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: They also want support from you.
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't just take.
32:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I don't know.
32:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm nervous.
32:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we do so negative?
32:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm I was very, um, and denial about AI.
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't use it for a long time.
32:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought I better understand what this thing is.
32:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I've all these teenagers college kids in my house that are clearly using it.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to not.
32:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Beyond top of things like that technology wise, so I experimented it just this week for the first time Talking to and then my mind was blown.
32:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I get that this is I see that we are on the edge of Changing it does come up a lot about therapy.
33:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the word.
33:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I see thrown around a lot Is that oh this it's my therapist.
33:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's my therapist my friends my therapist.
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: That's got to drive you crazy
33:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy is so valuable because it's one of the rare spaces where there is human connection.
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, as we're talking, there is nothing more healing than human connection.
33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know a lot of people say, well, I'm paying you, so you're paid to listen to me and stuff, but I'm not paid to care.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I genuinely care.
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That is
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: free that is ongoing.
33:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That is so genuine.
33:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't pay that out of me.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when people say chat, GPT is my therapist.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you're missing out on the true healing qualities of therapy.
33:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not an intervention.
33:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not some buzzword that we offer in the space to help you heal in two days.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the genuine connection.
34:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The experience of being seen, validated, offered feedback in a human-to-human space.
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: What you said earlier to some point that you challenge people to not just think everything they've already thought already, that you're not just neutral.
34:18
[SPEAKER_01]: or affirming, and you could be both those things at certain times I'm sure in the process, but then you also are challenging somebody to think about something differently.
34:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Think about our earlier conversation about whether your friend should like your stuff all the time.
34:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Chat, GPT might tell you, yes, that person's not supporting you because that's what you are telling it.
34:39
[SPEAKER_01]: you have already decided your friends aren't supporting you, you're telling it, it's not supporting you.
34:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And it may affirm that, yes, a friend should, there should be given take with a friend.
34:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you could push the person a little and say, well, is that what our friend is there for in terms of our business?
34:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a more nuanced conversation about relationships and I hate to see people just throw away friendships over really small things that aren't really worse.
35:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because different than counseling, it's as encouraging of cutting people out for basically just being human, for the slightest infractions.
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, Chad GBT is my best co-worker.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say when I'm thinking of planning a launch when I am trying to brainstorm ideas where I save ideas, but that, yes, man, aspect, that Chad GBT has, I'll say I have this idea and they're like, heck, yes, would you like me to create you a calendar, would you like me?
35:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they are at my whim, and that is,
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful as my co-worker, as my assistant, even.
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not great in friendship.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not great in building a relationship.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't be expecting anyone in my friendships and my relationships to be at my disposal in the same way that chatGPT essentially is.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking for chatGP to turn
36:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not a relationship, right?
36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, using it like a coworker.
36:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Ernest Cessent is smart.
36:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm trying to learn how to do that because I know there are things that I do that take a long time that could be shorter.
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It is scary to know how smart it is and it makes me worried for artists and
36:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, it's not going to stop, but this is here and it's happening and so I acknowledge that learning its ways is not a bad idea.
36:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably good to be on top of it.
36:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's cool that you said about the calendar.
36:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think recently just this week with it that was really cool.
36:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm going to be teaching a class here in town just a one time workshop.
36:42
[SPEAKER_01]: on how to start a podcast.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I've done an episode on it.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I've written some things about it.
36:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, let me take this work I've already done.
36:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I did the work.
36:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I took my transcript from my episode.
36:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I took other things I've written about podcasting.
36:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I put it in there and it like made an outline for me on my presentation.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So it took my own words and my own work that was long.
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was like a 30-minute episode.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to stand up there and talk for a 30-minute trick.
37:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I want it more organized, and I want graphic, not graphics, slides that I can use, and it broke it down for me in a minute.
37:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, wow, that is cool.
37:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is my clone.
37:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Why should I take five times longer to go through my own transcript to make slides when it can do it for me?
37:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see though how people get sucked into it.
37:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I get it now.
37:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this conversation, I mean, we have been able to cover that job, I love like conversations that get to flow, but also we've been able to touch on a lot of the nuances that are happening in modern day friendship right now, what is your tip to people who are
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Just trying to figure out how they can maintain their friendships and a climate right now that is exhausting and ever evolving and constantly unpredictable.
38:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I have three main tips.
38:02
[SPEAKER_01]: We've covered really two of them, so I'll just refresh on those.
38:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Number one is to look at reciprocity differently than you might be.
38:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't spell it out like this earlier.
38:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about it on social media, but it's true for a lot of things.
38:15
[SPEAKER_01]: For example, if you are the friend who always reaches out first,
38:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of deciding to end that friendship because the other person doesn't tend to reach out first, look for other ways that that friend has a reciprocal relationship with you.
38:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they're an excellent listener.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they ask really good questions when you're talking.
38:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they always respond pretty quickly when you reach out there, they schedule something if you suggest a date to them to get together and it's always you doing it first, but they always respond immediately and say, no, I can't
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I try to help people to see that as reciprocity.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That reciprocity in a friendship doesn't mean I do this thing and then you do that exacting the exact same way.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think people would be more satisfied with their friendships if they were able to see that.
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And not be so literal with the thing I do for you and then you do that thing for me.
39:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's number one.
39:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Number two really is scheduling like we said, that you have to schedule, even if it's a phone call.
39:12
[SPEAKER_01]: If you let so much time go by, it gets that much harder to get together with the person because now it feels like every time is like new.
39:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That can be their own exhausting.
39:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually easier to spend time with people that you've been spending time with.
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more natural.
39:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not so forced.
39:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the third thing that we really haven't gone over that much is I think that we all need to train ourselves on being more forgiving.
39:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if you could be more forgiving in general, you would be able to maintain friendships longer because we all need forgiveness.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: There's times we dropped the ball, we didn't email back, we didn't text back.
39:46
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little tiny new, again, there's back to the theme of modern friendship.
39:51
[SPEAKER_01]: My car now, I don't know if yours does this.
39:53
[SPEAKER_01]: can read text to you, the Apple play, whatever it's about.
39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: CarPlay.
39:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, I'll press the button for it to read me a text, but what happens when you do that is when you get home, that text is not highlighted anymore on your phone.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's been red.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a few times I'm really on it with my communication.
40:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to let things hang for days.
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The things that highlighted, I mean it could fall in my stuff and I have missed a few things since that
40:19
[SPEAKER_01]: could my friend be insulted or wouldn't be nice if they would just maybe know that something's up, so instead of being like, Oh, Nina doesn't care about me.
40:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, Oh, no, let me remind her, Oh, hey, can you let me know?
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I asked you about, and that gives me opportunity to say, Oh, shoot, that fell in my text.
40:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for reaching back out.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's those little acts of forgiveness that help keep a friendship.
40:38
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes it so that you're not telling yourself a story all the time.
40:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Just look a little more communication and more forgiveness, assuming the best, I guess, is what I'm saying.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not sure, ask.
40:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So forgiveness, assuming the best, and if you're not sure, ask, these are all the little behaviors that allow you to keep your friends.
40:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, emphasizing the forgiveness aspect.
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: showing each other grace being able to be understanding but being able to understand because you know that person and you trust that person's intentions.
41:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for this engaging thought-provoking conversation.
41:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone, if you are interested in connecting with Nina, all of her details will be linked in the show notes down below.
41:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you again for joining me today.
41:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me, and I cannot wait to have you on my show, by the way, because we're going to be talking on mine too, so looking forward.
41:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Listeners, you can find my Facebook group, Dear Nina, the group, when you go into the search part of Facebook, just type in Dear Nina the group.
41:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is a great place where you can get your anonymous friendship questions answered, not just by me, but by other active members of the group who have been there, and maybe they can even answer from the other point of view because it's so many people coming together who care about friendship, so that's a dear, you know, the group.
41:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And if we're not connected on social media, that's at your, you know, friendship on Instagram and TikTok, even on YouTube.
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, have a great week.