Latest / The Capitalism and Freedom in the Twenty-First Century Podcast / Monetary economics, the Taylor Rule, fiscal policy, and economic growth

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Monetary economics, the Taylor Rule, fiscal policy, and economic growth · The Capitalism and Freedom in the Twenty-First Century Podcast

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>> John Hartley: This is the Capitalism and Freedom in the 21st century
0:45
podcast where we talk about economics, markets and public policy.
0:49
I'm John Hartley, your host.
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Today, I'm joined by John Taylor, who is the Mary and
0:53
Robert Raymond professor of economics at Stanford University.
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John is also a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and
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is one of the world's greatest living monetary economists.
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John is also the inventor of the Taylor rule, which is a canonical description
1:05
of how central banks change interest rates in response to inflation and output gaps.
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He is also one of the founders of the new Keynesian macroeconomic paradigm and
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is consistently cited as a likely future winner of the Nobel Prize in economics,
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which I think would be more than well-deserved.
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John has also served in many positions in government.
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He has served in the US Navy.
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He has also served in the White House Council of Economic advisors, and
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he served as the US treasury under-secretary of international affairs
1:31
during the George W Bush administration.
1:33
Welcome, John.
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>> John Taylor: Good to be here, thank you.
1:36
>> John Hartley: You were born in Yonkers, New York.
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You're a Princeton undergrad, you're a Stanford PhD.
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How do you get interested in economics the first place?
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And what influenced you to get into the field of monetary economics?
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>> John Taylor: Well, I majored in economics in college.
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I went to Princeton and had some advisors, Phil Howard for example,
1:58
who just encouraged looking at the overall, the macroeconomy.
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And that interested me from the start, and not so
2:06
much that that's what I was gonna do.
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But I had to do a senior thesis, I did my senior thesis-
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>> John Hartley: It's required at
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Princeton-.
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>> John Taylor: Required, yes, required.
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And so I did it in that particular topic and that sort of got me interested,
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and I went to graduate school at Stanford.
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After that, actually I had a little interruption in the Navy, went to the Navy
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in between Princeton coming out here, which was formative for sure.
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Then came back here, and I was interested in econometrics, actually.
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Ted Anderson was my advisor, he's since passed away.
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He's a great advisor and did econometrics.
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But that was more on my way to study monetary.
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I never really lost the interest in monetary economics and how you
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could smooth the business cycle, how you could have a better economic policy.
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>> John Hartley: Fantastic, and I'm curious, so
3:02
you've been a professor at Stanford for some time.
3:08
I'm curious, how did some of these collaborations, for example,
3:13
in the early new Keynesian days, folks like Ned Phelps, for example.
3:19
I think one of the biggest, I think, contributions,
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I think that you made to the new Keynesian literature was coming up with this idea
3:27
of having a monetary policy rule, would later be named a Taylor rule.
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And initially it was sort of used as this third equation
3:37
to allow for the determinacy of equilibrium.
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And it turned out later, great description of the world and how the Fed actually
3:45
would follow monetary policy when it would follow interest rate targets and
3:49
prescription for optimal policy later.
3:51
But I'm curious, how did you get interested in this idea of central
3:56
banks should be following interest rate targets instead of just,
4:01
say, money growth rule targets.
4:03
Things that obviously Milton Friedman was a big fan and proponent of,
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and certainly captured a lot of the Fed's interest in the 1970s and 80s.
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How did you fall into this conversation about following interest rate targets,
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and how did that interest you in the early new Keynesian days?
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>> John Taylor: Well, it came very gradually.
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It was originally built and was interested in econometric models.
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They were quite elaborate.
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They did have this mixture of expectations and sticky prices,
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which I thought was very important.
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And that was a way to both have the ability to affect expectations of future
4:43
prices, but also have some rigidities,
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which still seems to be an important aspect of the economy.
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So those are the basic structure, which was fundamental.
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But in that context, you have to have a model of policy.
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And of course, Milton Friedman was a great influence.
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And the idea of having a money growth rule, having a rule is essential.
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How do you study policy without some kind of notion of what the central bank is
5:11
gonna do next year, next quarter?
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Cuz expectations are so important.
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You had to build on expectations, and you build them in by somehow having
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a description of what the central bank will do.
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>> John Hartley: Something that Sergeant and Lucas and the rational expectations,
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microfinance models sort of came in the 70s and 80s-.
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>> John Taylor: Yeah, in some sense they never had sticky prices.
5:34
That was a huge difference.
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They had perfectly flexible prices.
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And so what I thought was important, based on my studies, and
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in looking at the world is some kind of rigidity but not permanent,
5:49
something that could be influenced by policy, you could do it.
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So that's why a rule became important, a strategy,
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before the central bank became important.
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And I really began to look at that, but it's gradual over time.
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You had to have some stipulation of what the central bank was gonna do,
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what the fiscal policy would do.
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Otherwise, how would you have a model if you didn't have some description?
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So early on it was a description, and that gradually evolved to some description
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where the primary variable which the central bank had
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influence on was the interest rate and that affected the money supply.
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We always had a money demand function in these models.
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That was still a very important part of it.
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But I thought, based on my experience in Washington,
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I worked on the CEA a couple of times, and
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you could see they became good friends with the policymakers.
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You could see that their focus was more on the interest rate.
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So I wanted to find a way to do that, but to preserve the notion of a policy rule,
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of a strategy that the central bank was considering.
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So it was a gradual thing over time, but
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it involved research in academia and then getting my PhD, of course.
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But go and work in the Council of Economic Advisors in Washington, coming back and
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doing more work and going back again.
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That mixture back and forth is very important.
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I had four stints in the government, if you count the navy.
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>> John Hartley: That's fantastic, I wanna get back to that a little bit later when
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talking about the fiscal outlook,
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but sticking to monetary policy just for a second here.
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How exactly did the Taylor rule come about?
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There's this, obviously, your famous 1993 paper,
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Discretion Versus Policy Rules and Practice.
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It famously has a coefficient of, I think,
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0.5 on the upward gap and 1.5 on inflation,
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which I think became, I think, your most cited paper.
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And it's been an incredible description of the world and
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something that central banks all over the world Pay attention to
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closely when thinking about what monetary policy should be,
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even if perhaps they don't follow it as closely as they should at times.
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How did this idea come about to write that 1993 paper?
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>> John Taylor: Well, it wasn't instant.
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It took a while by the way, it's 30 years old as we speak.
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>> John Hartley: Yeah, exactly 30th anniversary.
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>> John Taylor: Originally, it didn't set out to write a simple, but if you had a,
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if you looked at policy, it was complicated and
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isn't there a way we could make it simpler?
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And that was what I strived for.
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I didn't know it become as useful or as popular as it's become global.
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It's well known.
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It was mainly a method to simplify in a way that people could understand and
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you could talk about it.
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And as you say, the coefficients 1.5 and 0.5.
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What could be simpler than that?
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Just two variables, the inflation rate and the GDP gap, so to speak.
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And that was the, it was looking around.
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I didn't start there, for sure, had more complicated things, but
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that seemed to work pretty well in the models.
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Remember this, I came about this through the models.
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First, make sure that your policy was gonna work in the model,
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and you had a criterion.
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You wanted to have low inflation rate, around 2% or so.
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That was the goal.
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That was the 2% target,
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I think was the first time maybe one of the central bank had 2% before then.
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But the simple, sometimes we thought maybe one and
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a half wouldn't be better just choose an easy number and then work from there.
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And then originally, it was more complicated things.
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The exchange rate was certainly a factor that people talked about, so
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I considered that.
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But it's realized you come pretty close to optimal policy, pretty close to the more
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complicated thing, which had 30 variables, or ten variables on the right hand side.
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He had two, and that was kind of an eye opener for me.
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But I still thought it was something that wouldn't have as much impact as it has.
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>> John Hartley: Well, it's amazing.
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I feel like it's like one of those strokes of brilliance and genius that you look
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back on it now, 30 years later, and it's, well, isn't that obvious?
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Unemployment, inflation is probably the dual mandate, but
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I think it's one of those things where it was probably not
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at all obvious at the time that the Fed could follow these things so closely.
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And the way that you wrote down the Taylor rule and
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something that obviously influenced central banks around the world.
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Now I want to start getting a little bit to see a question of optimal policy.
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And I think this is where I think there's a lot of maybe confusion about, and
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sometimes criticism about the Taylor rules being something that,
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yeah, it was too rigid to follow mechanically.
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And where I think people say things, we shouldn't adopt a Taylor rule.
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Well, I think that the irony is that several banks around the world have
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already adopted Taylor rules, and you can just see that in the data.
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But I think one sort of misconception is that you advocate for
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something that's strictly mechanical.
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If you look to, for example, things like the Fed Oversight and Reform Act,
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the Form Act from 2016, something which you had direct influence on and
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was something that was before by Congress.
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I think that stipulated that Congress could revise these rules and
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that there wouldn't necessarily be such a mechanical thing.
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I'm curious, how has your time in Washington when you visit
11:34
talking with Congress people and talking with monetary policymakers?
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I mean, how do you respond to those sorts of
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critics who argue that monetary policy should
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be not somewhat rules based in a sense?
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I'm curious. >> John Taylor: Well, let me say,
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the idea of a rules based policy has always been very important.
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In other words, how are you gonna figure out what the central bank is going to
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do next year without some kind of a description of what they do?
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So the notion of a rule, whether it's simple or complicated,
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was essential to what I was always interested way back at the very beginning.
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And the idea that, well, it's too complicated out of five variables came
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from working in Washington, knowing people at the Fed, knowing Greenspan.
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He was the chair of the CEA for a while.
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And so you got the sense a little bit what they were thinking about and
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how you could simplify it.
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And clearly, you had some notion of inflation.
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If you had a target inflation rate, 2%, then you had some sense to tighten policy
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when inflation got to Irish policy, when inflation got too low.
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So that became a key ingredient.
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But you also notice that,
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well, the central bank also looks at the state of the economy.
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What's the unemployment rate, what's the GDP gap?
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And so you had to have something in that.
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And that wouldn't make sense if you didn't,
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because the Fed is gonna ease when the economy is in a tough time.
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And then the other variables you maybe want to include, too, as I mentioned,
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the exchange rate was very common, especially for
13:09
economies where international trade and foreign exchange are very important.
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So I definitely considered that a lot.
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But the idea, I guess, was you had to have something simpler.
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And I knew that from working in Washington several times and
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knowing central bankers in the US and other places.
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And that's where the idea of, as you say, simple and
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people always argue is too simple.
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How could policy be so simple as two variables?
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But it's turned out to be pretty good, by the way, it's not always.
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Sometimes they get off, and I think the Fed recently has been off.
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Now they're back on again, closer at least.
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And so people are looking back, well, what was wrong?
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And they were so far off.
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And maybe that's problem.
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Maybe that will bring even more attention back to some kind of a simple rule.
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I've noticed a lot of interest.
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You mentioned the Congress having quite a bit of interest in this, and
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there was some legislation passed.
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The Fed had to say what its rule was and
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the Congress would build into their testimony but that faded away.
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I don't know, maybe they come back now, people will see how useful it actually is.
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>> John Hartley: Jumping off that,
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I want to touch a little bit about the Taylor principle, this idea that the Fed
14:20
needs to raise short term interest rates more than one for one with inflation.
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This goes back to the Taylor rule coefficient of 1.5 on inflation.
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There's certainly been this experiment that's been playing out, and
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others like John Cochran,
14:36
have written a bit about this question about neoficarianism and so forth.
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And in this era of inflation, sort of maybe peaked at 8% or
14:47
so, and it's still at 6%.
14:50
Do we actually need to raise the Fed funds rate to above inflation to
14:54
get it to come down?
14:56
And it increasingly seems like that's the case, and that's where we're getting to.
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And interest rates are, as of this moment, around 5%.
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I'm curious, what are your thoughts on that debate right now and
15:10
where monetary policy currently is?
15:12
Do you think the Fed has been too slow to respond to inflation?
15:16
That picked up in May 2021 and became certainly more
15:21
than just a temporary phenomenon as it became increasingly clear over time.
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How do you think the Fed has been?
15:31
How would you assess the Fed's response to this early 2020s inflation?
15:36
>> John Taylor: In fact, we had a book on the desk here how monetary
15:40
policy got behind the curve, which was a really important thing.
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>> John Hartley: And this is the summary of your monetary policy conference
15:48
proceedings from last year.
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>> John Taylor: A lot of people contributed this, but they were behind,
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no question interest rate was 25 basis points, and
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the rules would say it should be four or five or something like that.
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So they have way.
15:59
Quite a way to catch up, and they're now four and a half or so, but
16:03
I still think based on the rule they got to go a little higher.
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And you could say, why one and a half?
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The idea is to have the real interest rate a little bit higher than normal.
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So that would offset the other impacts that are keeping inflation from high,
16:18
basically to attenuate.
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It's also very important that this be known, as long as it's known,
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the impact are much less severe.
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The worst thing is, I'm surprised, [COUGH] tightening, surprised, and
16:30
that is conjecture.
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So the whole idea of a rule or strategy is that people know what it is,
16:37
and it's also important internationally.
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So the US knows what's happening in Japan or Europe, and so
16:43
they have a sense of what's going on there.
16:46
So I think ultimately, this is always meant to be an international aspect.
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That's why I've always worried about the exchange rate, but
16:54
it seems like the US exchange rate is less important.
16:57
And also let me say this, it's very important to say, I originally said,
17:01
this is a guideline, don't follow this exactly.
17:04
There's other things that come in play, you go back and read my 30 year old paper
17:08
or whatever it is, you can see that pretty clear now, it is [INAUDIBLE].
17:11
Now it's become more adopted, more descriptive of what actually happens,
17:17
as you say, and that's become an important way to test it.
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Now we have how other central banks are doing and what they don't go,
17:25
they didn't follow this method in the 70s, and inflation went through the roof.
17:30
And then they've been better at it, we'll see what happens now.
17:33
There's a real question about what's happening in monetary policy right now.
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>> John Hartley: Absolutely, I wanna jump a little bit to fiscal policy and talking
17:42
to get your thoughts on that, you've long spoken about fiscal issues in the US.
17:48
You testified on these issues and you've written several papers and
17:52
books on this topic.
17:53
You also served as Secretary for International Affairs, you ran OIA,
17:58
or Office of International Affairs at Treasury in the early 2000s.
18:03
You spent time at CEA, and you've also served in the military,
18:10
so you've seen the government spending side at work very up close.
18:17
I'm curious, what do you think about the long-term fiscal outlook for the US?
18:22
This COVID era spending is piled on an additional four
18:26
plus trillion dollars in spending.
18:30
There's right now some negotiations in DC about raising the debt limit,
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I think it's something that seems to get lifted every few years.
18:40
About ten years ago there was this big sort of discussion around Bowles Simpson,
18:45
the Bowles-Simpson Commission.
18:47
There's a lot of discussions about debt then,
18:51
that seems to have become a bygone era almost at this point.
18:55
With, I think very few politicians in both parties wanting to talk about
19:00
sort of the reality of entitlement spending and the future path of debt.
19:06
We also have inflation and interest rates would,
19:09
it obviously influenced the net interest costs.
19:12
I'm curious, what do you think about the fiscal outlook for the US and
19:16
what do you think needs to be done?
19:17
>> John Taylor: So, first of all, I think, we talked about monetary policy,
19:20
that's where the Taylor rule and things like that come from.
19:23
Because I thought it was so important to have something that was better than
19:27
a fixed money growth rule, but had the same principles as a rule.
19:31
But there's other rules, there's fiscal rules, there's rules for regulation,
19:35
there's international rules.
19:36
I always have written about, this is just one element of good policy.
19:40
We have to have a good fiscal policy, have good regulatory policy,
19:43
a good international policy.
19:45
So fiscal policy is a very important part of this.
19:47
And I think that originally, the notion is you had a balanced budget normal times,
19:52
and you had surpluses and deficits around that.
19:55
We're far from that at this point at this point.
19:57
And I think it would be easier for monetary policy, it'd be easier for
20:02
policy all around if fiscal policy also had this notion of a smaller deficit.
20:08
And the deficit has been quite big.
20:10
And to some extent, it's really like monetary policy being off,
20:13
they're both off.
20:14
And I think that the more we can come back to the basic elements of what good
20:19
economic policy is, and rules base is part of it, and you have a fiscal rule,
20:23
it really makes a difference.
20:25
So there's lots of problems with big deficits, sometimes there,
20:30
like the panic we had a few years ago, you had to have it,
20:34
it's there already, interest rates driven near to zero.
20:38
But the idea is in normal times you don't need that, you should get out of it.
20:42
So I would like to see policy, fiscal policy, as well as monetary policy,
20:46
get back to a more normal stance.
20:48
I think policy would work better if that was the case.
20:51
And there's also international aspects of fiscal policy too.
20:54
>> John Hartley: Absolutely, I mean, it's interesting to see Europe obviously has
20:59
tried to adopt fiscal rules and trying to get its fiscal house in order.
21:03
Do you have any, on the international side of things,
21:07
do you have any particular thoughts about the European experiment with the Euro and
21:13
having a monetary union, but not a fiscal union?
21:16
>> John Taylor: [CROSSTALK] Well,
21:17
I think that their decision to have a single currency was a good one.
21:21
They had to rein in certain countries and have sort of a common policy of all,
21:26
it was hard to do, but I think it's led to better policy,
21:29
I think they're a little bit off right now, to be sure.
21:33
I think it's a good system.
21:35
The UK is not part of it, and so ultimately,
21:38
I think that's a good way to think about how the world will work.
21:42
These are countries who are quite different, Italy and Germany, for example.
21:46
But the idea of bringing them together with a common
21:49
framework always seem to be good.
21:51
And whether it's a Taylor rule or some other kind of rule, that is part of their
21:56
thinking, it's always a part of the thinking and has influenced that.
22:00
They all know about that.
22:01
So I think it's a good phenomenon, it's happening, a good trend that's happening.
22:07
But it's not the only answer, because you still have to deal with differences
22:11
of opinion, different cultures, different nationalities.
22:15
>> John Hartley: Any thoughts on Japan?
22:17
Japan being one of the first countries to embark on quantitative easing,
22:22
we've seen this whole decade of quantitative easing.
22:26
I feel like the 2010's, the monetary policy response was largely embracing
22:31
this unconventional form of monetary policy of buying long term bonds,
22:36
trying to bring down long term bond yields.
22:39
What do you think the legacy of that has been?
22:42
And do you have any particular thoughts on Japan and
22:45
being in this low interest rate environment?
22:47
>> John Taylor: Yeah, and it is a very important part of the world economy.
22:51
I spent several months at the bank of Japan learning how they work and
22:54
talking with the policymakers, and I followed pretty closely.
22:58
I think they have a new governor coming in, and that will change things.
23:01
I think it will get back to a more rules-based policy, we'll see.
23:05
>> John Hartley: Is Kuroda leaving?
23:06
He's just retiring, I think, this month.
23:07
I think Kuroda is exiting this month.
23:11
>> John Taylor: Yeah, they mean well, they're good people, but
23:14
I think they have lost track of how to conduct monetary policy.
23:19
And Vasil becomes back a little bit.
23:21
But it's different countries, different policies that are taken throughout,
23:25
and so you have to put that in the right context.
23:28
But I think what's important now is how do you have a global system
23:33
where each central bank,
23:35
assuming there's central banks in each country that are independent.
23:40
Are conducting policy in a way that's good for their economy, but it's also good for
23:45
the world economy.
23:46
And that's what I hope will happen in the next few years.
23:50
We've made a lot of progress, we're not there yet, that's for sure.
23:52
And I think that, as you say, there's disputes,
23:55
some people think it's too simple.
23:56
Some people think we need to do more complicated things.
23:59
What's amazing is you don't have to be that complicated, it works pretty well.
24:02
That's what evidence has shown.
24:05
>> John Hartley: It's been 50 years since Bretton Woods and
24:08
we've been in this flexible exchange rate regime for some time.
24:14
Any thoughts on this was obviously a big debate that Friedman had with Mundell.
24:21
Friedman definitely won the flexible exchange rates
24:26
fight when 50 years ago the pegs were broken.
24:31
But certainly I think Mundell was able to sort of get his Euro brain child in
24:35
place and having a common currency in Euro.
24:38
And obviously that's been very controversial.
24:40
But I'm curious what you think of the legacy of
24:45
flexible exchange rates that we all have today.
24:50
>> John Taylor: Milton Friedman was a good friend.
24:52
He was here at Stanford for quite a few years.
24:55
Talked to him a lot about policy rules, that's for sure.
24:58
He knew about the Taylor rule very well.
24:59
We talked a lot about that, talked about the fixed money growth rule and
25:04
the idea of having a flexible exchange rate that's in the tailor roll unless you
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somehow get together at one central bank.
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So you have the same interest rate back in Europe.
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But there was definitely a way.
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How could you realize exchange rate is gonna be flexible and
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still have a policy rule?
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And I think that's the fixed money growth rules of Milton Friedman were
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very much that way, and so is the tail rule.
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There's no exchange rate explicitly.
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And that was, they say, I worried a lot about that.
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What about the exchange rate?
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And it turned out to be pretty simple.
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In fact, inflation rate and GDP gap and
25:40
interest rate is pretty close to money growth rule.
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And you look at the interest rate specifically,
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rather than let the interest rate come out of the policy,
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where you have a fixed money growth, fixed money growth implies interest rate.
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This way the interest rate is decided and implies the money growth rate.
25:59
So the idea of a rule is very, very clear.
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As long as I've been in economics, I think about rules for strategies for
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monetary policy and fiscal policy.
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You asked me about how I got interested.
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Well, there were rules, they were more complicated,
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but how could you make it simpler?
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And then I think that was where working in Washington and understanding and
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getting to know the policymakers, getting to know members of Congress,
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getting to know the White House, and how the president was working with other
26:30
people, you began to see something simpler was gonna be important to this.
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It's just, you don't want to be so complicated.
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There's no reason for it to be so complicated.
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>> John Hartley: Absolutely and absolutely, you think about it.
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Taylor and Taylor rule in an open economy.
26:45
Mundell Fleming says, if you're gonna have monetary
26:49
policy where you can change interest rates and
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not have a pegged interest rate permanently, you have to allow for
26:59
both movement of capital flows and to have free flow and exchange rates.
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I'm curious to keep back, just on a final note here.
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Part of your time in Washington, you were undersecretary for international affairs.
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Part of that was not just focusing on the developed economies in the developed
27:21
world, but also on emerging economies in many other parts of the world,
27:26
the developing parts of the world.
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I know you spent some time helping to set up currencies in Afghanistan and
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Iraq in the early 2000s.
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I'm just curious about your thoughts on global economic growth and
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your thoughts on regulation institutions.
27:43
I'm sure you had many great conversations with Milton Friedman.
27:48
I spent a lot of my time sort of researching on things that relate to
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economic growth and constraints on economic growth.
27:53
I'm curious, what is your broad thinking about?
27:56
Like, what is the secret sauce to economic growth in your mind?
27:59
>> John Taylor: Well, I go back to the notion that you have good economic policy
28:01
as monetary policy, fiscal policy, regulatory policy,
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and some international aspect.
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That seems to me, I've written books about that.
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That's the most important thing to keep in place.
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So monetary policy is very important, but countries are different.
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Maybe fixed money growth will work best for a small economy in Africa.
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And so you have to recognize the institutions are different.
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And I've always emphasized that.
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I think what I've seen over the very recent years and the experience with
28:28
countries is that this kind of rule, where the interest rate is the main variable,
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that could be countries coming together in a union of some kind,
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like the European Central bank and the monetary union.
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But the notion that there'd be some stable,
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understandable monetary policy is key because,
28:48
think about how terrible it can be if you don't think of Zimbabwe.
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I carry Zimbabwe notes in my wall to show kids how bad it can be, and
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it can be really terrible.
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And we still have that problem around.
29:02
And there's other things that interfere with monetary policy, but
29:06
just focus on monetary policy.
29:07
There's a lot that can be done in Africa, Asia, Latin America.
29:11
Latin America still has high inflation rates.
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What's going on?
29:14
They don't need to have that.
29:16
But there's still a feeling that, well, maybe high inflation is not so bad.
29:21
In fact, right now there's people saying, well, why have a 2% inflation?
29:25
Why don't we have three, four?
29:27
And so I don't think that's a good idea.
29:29
I testified just last week in Congress emphasize that 2% is where we
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are globally mimic.
29:36
Many countries have that.
29:37
There's a sense of that causes more stability than if it is,
29:41
one has four, one has ten, one has two.
29:43
And so I think try to stick with that.
29:46
And there's always temptation, hey, what, 3%, 4%?
29:49
We could get to that.
29:50
Not a big deal, but it is a big deal.
29:52
And that is a unifying theme that I hope we continue with in the future.
29:58
>> John Hartley: Well, it's fascinating, I know there's been some discussions about
30:02
potentially a monetary union between Argentina and Brazil.
30:06
I don't know if that'll happen or if that's a good deal for the Brazilians.
30:10
But I know that there is a good chunk of evidence that there's resurgent economic
30:14
growth and
30:15
maybe some evidence that there's some convergence across the developing world.
30:20
And I think, and this is really just in the past two decades.
30:27
And I think it's fair to say that a lot of that, I think,
30:31
is partially and thanks to monetary stability.
30:34
And I think a lot of that goes back to so
30:37
much of the great work that you've done over the past decades.
30:41
And I know many are still fascinated by all of your work John,
30:46
I want to thank you so much for joining us today John,
30:50
it's been a real pleasure having you.
30:53
>> John Taylor: It's been great, thanks for your great questions, terrific.
30:55
I enjoyed it.
30:56
>> John Hartley: Today, our guest was John Taylor,
30:58
who is the Marion Robert Raymond professor of economics at Stanford University and
31:02
is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.
31:05
This is the capitalism and freedom of the 21st century podcast where we
31:08
talk about economics, markets and public policy.
31:10
I'm John Hartley, your host.
31:11
Thanks so much for joining us.
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