Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 372 - CIA Indications Of Operational Interest

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 372 - CIA Indications Of Operational Interest · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, I have your attention.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: The show starts in five line eight seven six five
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: four three two one go.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Read any say.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Up, the true down and rasole from the junis a
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: mom to bear thing, mister foods in the pure awenness.
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: It's riding nights chill, the lights, the break sis, the bread.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Of the basting.
• 1:21
  Speaker 5: You and the boy for your prom to see.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Nights saying.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: And here we go.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Wow, thank you Roger.
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, if your channel members, you would have known that
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: we have a new intro song, and you would have
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: also known. And we had a very bad Wednesday night,
• 2:12
  Speaker 5: but we're here today. We are a little late. We apologize,
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: but you know, these things happen. And we have some
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: fantastic guests on the show, one returning for what the
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: third time. I believe we've had Larry on twice before.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Yes, I believe so, and we've been.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: Unfortunate not to get David to pass two times we've
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: had Larry, but we got him tonight, folks, so we
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: are gonna use him while we got that right. They
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: are the authors of the Oswald Puzzle, and we're gonna
• 2:54
  Speaker 5: bring him on right now. Everyone, welcome in David Boiling
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: and mister Larry Hancock. Welcome to the show, fellas.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: It's great to be back. And I gotta say I
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: love that song. Could you just shoot me that way
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: file because I want to play that from time to
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: time just to inspire myself.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: That's that's cool, just to jam out to it, of course.
• 3:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah, your alums in the morning, right, Yeah.
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: Gets you going. That's that's our buddy Roger. He's a
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: he's a friend of the show. He does all our
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: music for us, custom made. He's a very talented guy.
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: And he goes by the pseudonym Lee Harold Oswald down here.
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: He likes that variation.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So before we start, we just want to thank
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: h of course the double B for sending in his
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: twenty dollars. Sorry for the horn, guys. Happy Friday everyone,
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: we meet it, yes we have. And and also someone
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: became a new member here.
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: Doug was cleaning that every time I hit that horn
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: when he's driving, he about runs off the road.
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: Well, speaking of Doug, everyone has their Dallas Action hots on,
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: right except for me. I'm still waiting for it, Doug.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: But thank you address Yes, thank you slacker Dan for
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: becoming a member. We appreciate it, and we're going to
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: skip the intros and kind of get right to it.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: How are you guys? That was everything? I think you
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: have a somewhat of an announcement.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, first of all, it is great to
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: be back, Joy, thanks for having us. Yeah. I think
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: after we we did the Oswoll puzzle, you know, there
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: were there's some questions because obviously, well not that there
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: aren't ever going to be loose ends, okay, but given that,
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: one of the big questions that we fail was what
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: happened with Oswald after you know, after he went off
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: the radar ended up in Dallas. You know, how did
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: this all come together? He's in New Orleans, you can
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: see what he's doing, and we got Mexico City, and
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: then suddenly we're in Dallas and he's in school book
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: depository and he's a patsy. How did that happen? Okay?
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: So that raised two big questions, and David and I said, well,
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: all right, we're going to try to take it further.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: We can't guarantee it, you know, we think we think
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: we've got him pretty well tied down in New Orleans
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: as to what his agenda was, what he wanted to
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: do who he's interacting with, So let's just wrestle with
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: that some more. So we spent about what David I guess,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: about six or seven more months just wrestling with that.
• 5:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we don't stop, Larry, We just keep going.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: It's just doing what we always do, which you say,
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: let's write another white paper on it, and then it's
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: ten pages, and it's thirty pages, and it's fifty pages,
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: and it's like, oh geez, you know, what are we
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: going to do with this? And actually what we did
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: was it got to the point where it's big enough
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: fifty plus pages I think what almost one hundred citations,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: which are also equally important because it goes to a
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: lot of documents this time. So we went back to
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: the publisher and said, okay, what do you want to do.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: We normally they would they would do it paperback edition
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: of the book because it just came out in hardcover
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: and kindle and audible, and basically we persuade them to
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: move that up so that we're going to actually have
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: a second edition that will come out in April, that
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: we'll have all that additional material into it. It wraps
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: up to be two chapters so the paperback will actually
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: be a second edition, which is kind of what happened
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: to me way back when on someone would have talked,
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: you know, you do more research where you're going to
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: get how you're going to get it out there, you
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: put it in the book. So that will be available
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: in April, and it's already on Amazon for pre order.
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: But listen, the link is in the description for the
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: pre order as well as the original, the OG version,
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: the hardcover.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: So I guess that's what we're going to talk about tonight,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: is how we got there because and I think I
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: think we're just going to talk about the first part
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: of that, because we really looked at two things. The
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: first thing is Oswald, you know, is oswelld operational. And
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: the first thing is Oswald operational with the CIA, because
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: there's a case to be made, and we'll make that
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: tonight that Oswald had really been picked up in a
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: new project by the CIA, not to his knowledge, but
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: based on what he had been doing in New Orleans,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: and that there was a real live project developing in
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: Special Affairs staff under a fellow name Tilton Black Propaganda project.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: And that's what we'll go in. But that's that's only
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: half the story. Half of the story, and it's a
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: pretty long story. Theys got what seven different you know diagrams,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: and how did that come about? That's first part of
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: the story. And then what we go on and it
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: will be in the book and we can present it later.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: But then then there's a all right, if he was
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: of operational interest to the CIA, what about the bad guys?
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: And so what we did was extend that to say,
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: to offer a scenario for how that happened. At the
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: same time. Essentially he became of operational interest to two
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: different parties, you know, the CIA for actually a legitimate
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: sanctioned operation that was going to jail and was gelling
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: in the fall of nineteen sixty three and probably would
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: have come to play into play before the end.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Of the year.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: In fact, they're really ironic thing about it is they
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: were probably set to quote unquote pull the trigger on
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: that at the time of the assassination, whereas he became
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: of operational interest to the bad guys who pulled them in.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: And these things are happening in tandem, which is the
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: really scary, frightening ironic thing about it is he's suddenly
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: being used without his knowledge by two different parties. The
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: key thing being to pull it all together is where's
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: the nexus of that. Who knew about him? You knew
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: what was going on with him within the CIA, and
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: who knew how they could effectively steal that to turn
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: him into a patsy once the decision was made to
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: go to Dallas. So that's what you're going to see
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: in the book. That's the two new chapters in the book.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: One operational CIA, one operational interest with the conspiracy, the
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: CIA didn't being slow moving, and that's one of the
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: things David and I saw when you start looking at
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: the document, it's this, boy are they slow? You can
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: understand how Castro was always ahead of them.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: They've got so many much bureaucracy, so many layers. They
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: try to do everything so right that they can never
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: catch up.
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: You know. The compartmentalization.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well compartmentalization does a job on them. But just
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: they always want to have perfect deniability, you know, And
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: if you're seeking for perfect deniability, you're always behind on
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: a curve on somebody who doesn't care. You know, we
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: don't care about that. We just want to accomplish something.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: So they really fell behind the curve with this new
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: project where the guys that are going to use Osma
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: over something really bad have no concerns. They want him
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: to be visible, they want him to be part of
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: the conspiracy. They want there to be a conspiracy. So
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: you can see how they would leap frog the whole process.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: But David, you want to go ahead and chime in
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: before we start on what I've missed or exaggerated.
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: No exaggerations. The thing one of the problems I have
• 11:05
  Speaker 6: is like, who are these people? Who are we talking about?
• 11:08
  Speaker 6: So it in I had. I had to come up with,
• 11:10
  Speaker 6: you know, something that made sense to me, if it
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: makes sense to me, if that makes sense to you guys.
• 11:15
  Speaker 6: So I came up with some diagrams, and you know,
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: we have a lot of names. Point to them, you know,
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: say all right, this guy read Oswald stuff, this guy
• 11:27
  Speaker 6: read Oswald stuff, and where do they come in the
• 11:30
  Speaker 6: whole org chot? You know, who is looking at Oswald?
• 11:33
  Speaker 6: Who are these people?
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 11:35
  Speaker 6: For this who is the sas? You know, we go
• 11:37
  Speaker 6: right back to setting out who who these guys are?
• 11:41
  Speaker 6: You know, it's like and what are they doing? What
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: is their job? So that's where we wanted to start,
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: and they're filled in a lot of holes for us,
• 11:49
  Speaker 6: you know, just oh wow, these guys, these guys, you know,
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: so it began to make sense to us eventually who
• 11:56
  Speaker 6: was monitoring Oswald? And where did all the reports go to?
• 12:00
  Speaker 6: Who else is watching him?
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: So right, that's where we're gonna discuss some of that tonight.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: Right right, sounds good. And of course his first contact
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: was with Ernesto Rodriguez right in New Orleans in early August,
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: and then sent to Brignier and and on and on
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: it goes. But I will now bring up your PowerPoint
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: from your Lancer presentation, which I found really fascinating. I
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: actually probably blocked a few people's views by moving up
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: to the first row to take notes after being in
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: the back corner most of Sunday.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: And that reminds me, Joe the first few Lancer conferences
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: I always went to. I would always go up to
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: front and sit on the floor in front of the
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: first row because I wanted to see, you know, what
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: they were really showing. So that that brings back memories.
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: We do have an interesting Lancer memory picture that you
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: sent us that that Rob has uh put in his UH.
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: Show us studs ever captured together in a photograph. Here
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: we have John Newman dressed like a ninja, uh right
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: out of the game Mortal Kombat, and then Indiana Jones,
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: Malcolm Blunt himself with his mini pocketed vest, and then
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: and then Larry looking all three of them.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can just sort of see why John makes
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: more of an impression. You know, he's definitely gonna get
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: your attention.
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: Hey, if you were if if you wore yoga pants, Larry,
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: you might get a little attention too.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, what year at Lancer was that? You?
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, that was at least a decade ago, that was
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: It may have been the first conference John came back
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: from with his New Orleans documents I'm sorry as Mexico
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: City documents, and he wanted to make a really mysterious
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: he's opened up his presentation. That's back in the time
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: before power points, so maybe fifteen years ago. He came
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: in with a stack of transparencies overhead transparencies about like that,
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: and we sort of immediately knew we were doomed because
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: you know, he's going to go at least two hours
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: over his slot. But and he came up. His first
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: announcement was I'm a conspiracy theorist, so I mean, this
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: is serious stuff.
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, coming from him, that's no joke. You know, we
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: were talking before we get started, David. We were talking
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: this past Wednesday night on the show, and I was
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: kind of up blowing Joe's mind as I was going
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: through a little timeline of some correspondence. And it started
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: in like February of sixty three with Marina writing the
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: Russian embassy asking to go back to Russia. Obviously there's
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: some problems because she says, you know, don't worry about
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: my husband. He's gonna stay here, all right. And then
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: there's correspondence in February, March, April, May, June, July where
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: she's going back and forth with them, and then it changes.
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: Then she says, oh no, my husband will be coming
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: back with me. And then I think it was in
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: July first you have Oswald writing them saying, you know,
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: please expect my wife back in don't worry about me, right,
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: and then nothing until November ninth when Oswald Lee Oswald
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: writes him again and tells him about his adventures in Mexico,
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: which is it's a very weird letter, but it kind
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: of it kind of made me think, like, what, what
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: in the heck is going on between them two at
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: the time. I mean, I'm sure it was rocky. I'm
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: sure things weren't good. You gotta remember Marina was pregnant,
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: you know, this whole time, and then she had the
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: baby in October. And you know, just when you when
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: you juxtapose all of that with what was what else
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: Oswald was doing in New Orleans leading up to all
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: this stuff, it just gives you a really weird picture
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: about what was going on back then, you know, especially
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: because I've never understood what in the hell he was
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: doing there in August of sixty three. You know, was
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: he a protagonist, was he legitimately a protagonist? Or was
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: he being told what to do? Because when you read
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: like some of the things that this guy wrote, you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: he wrote like a, uh, I guess, a criticism of
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: the American Communist Party, and it's it's it's very intelligent sounding,
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: you know, like there's lots of conceptualized ideas in there
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: that you wouldn't think would be coming out of a
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: twenty three year old guy who's you know, maybe got
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: a tenth grade education at best. But you read it
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: and you seem, you know, this guy is spending a
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: lot of time reading books and writing all this stuff
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: and doing these speeches. Is he legitimately a Marxist socialists?
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: And I, you know, I don't know what you guys think.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think another It's interesting if you look at
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: the other stuff he was writing, especially that spring March April,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: he was writing a lot of I wouldn't even call
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: him philosophical. Their their world views on socialism, progress. You know,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: how do you how do you compare capitalism and socialism?
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: And the interesting thing is that he was looking at
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: a common nation of both. He had been really turned
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: off by several aspects of the Soviet system. He was
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: turned off by certain aspects of the capitalist system, so
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: he is looking for middle ground. But everything he's writing
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: is very err ordite. I mean, he can't spell everything
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: right necessarily. But he's a deep thinker. And when he
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: goes to give his speech to the Jesuits at the college,
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: he's talking on world affairs, and they're writing him about
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: how impressed they were with his speech on world affairs.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: So he's philosophically into this kind of problem. And it
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: kind of gets back to Marina's complaints if you lay
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: down some of the things that Marina said. Beside that,
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, Marina is complaining because he spends more time
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: in his little cubby hole reading and writing than.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: He does with her.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: In fact, during that year, during sixty three, they're pretty
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: much losing contact. He's he's into his his views, he's
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: into his agenda, he's ignoring her. She's complaining about lack
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: of sex. You know, okay, obviously at least one time
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: because she gets pregnant, but not enough playing that, you know,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: And so there's a the two are not together, they're
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: not in sync. But there's this strange kind of like
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: love hate relationship all year long back to the fall,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: where they'll break up, she'll move out, she'll move someplace else,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: he'll go away her for Russian friends try to get
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: her to break up with him, like he's not any
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: good for they're going to even help her get a separation,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and then he shows up at the door pleading with
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: her and I love you, and then they're back together,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: and so Rob, I thank you. It is a strange relationship.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know how much of that goes on, but
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: they're continually breaking apart, coming back together. If you look
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: at her correspondence for letters to him in New Orleans,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: he goes to New Orleans and he's left her right
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: once more. Uh, she's pregnant. He's left her with a
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: very young child. But you look at the corresponds and
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: he's writing to her on very friendly terms. You know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: I finally got a job, and she's writing and she's
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: you know, like telling June, you know, Daddy loves us,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: We're going to get back together. Fine. It's just totally
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: back and forth. So I don't think it's it's is
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: any one thing. It's pretty clear that. And then after
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: they're together for like two more weeks in New Orleans,
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: at first it's great, and then she's writing Ruth Payne saying,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: now he doesn't want us anymore. This is not going
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: to work. So it never lasts, you know what I
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: would say, David, whenever they reconnect, maybe maybe at lasts
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: if he's got a job, like it could last for
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: three months. Otherwise it's a couple of weeks.
• 20:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah. I think he was streaming about going to Cuba,
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: you know, I mean that was always his goal, was it?
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: August of sixty three years actually talking to Marine about
• 21:08
  Speaker 6: actually hijacking a plane to get to Cuba. I mean
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: she actually testified to that. I mean people, wait what
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: you know?
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: So?
• 21:16
  Speaker 6: I mean he was crazy and.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: Then here's the thing, is she tested it. It's like
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: he told me that he wanted me to help. I
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: told him he was nuts.
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: Yep.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: But you know, if he got there right, and if
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: you can bring the baby kids and I I'll come.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: It's like, what what are you thinking about? Just just
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: go back to Russia. Dump this guy, you know. So, Yeah,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: it's I think Oswald was always on a given philosophical path.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: He has his agenda, you know, and he always defaults
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: back to that. But he can be swayed. He's situational,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: you know, so, but he always defaults back to his
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: his agenda. It is not about Marina, it's not about
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: the family. He goes back and forth. It would be
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: silly to think otherwise. He's not on a You're not
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: on a straight line doing anything other than what he's
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: interested in. He was interested in Russia. Now he's interested
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: in Cuba because he thinks maybe the Cubans are going
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: to do it right.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: That's one thing about Oswalt. He wanted to find out
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: for himself and we were talking about Russia. He found
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: out for himself about Russia. It wasn't what he thought
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: it was. Yeah, but you know what's the default. The
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: default is, well, maybe the Cubans are doing it right.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Everything I'm reading in the in what I subscribe to
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: says the Cubans are doing right.
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: I need to see this for myself, right and Jill,
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: like you like you mentioned who do you see One
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: of the first Cubans in New Orleans was Arnesto Rodriguez.
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: And if you look at Oswald's address book, Arnesto gave
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: him Bringia's address and a bunch of other Cubans to
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: actually go talk to in New Orleans. So that's how
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: you know, as well knew where Brungaro was. You know,
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: it's a couple of buildings down from Onnesta Rodriguez's language school, right, Yeah,
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: Anduz goes right to the heart of what was going
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: on in New Orleans. You know, he was a member
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: of the CRC. He's the guy that paid the bills.
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: He knew Banister very well, he admitted, Yeah, I knew
• 23:20
  Speaker 6: Banister and all those guys. He knew Ferry. You know,
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: it's close to Bartes, He'd go to Bartes's house, he
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: would go to Augustine gretat so the Odios house. You know,
• 23:32
  Speaker 6: he knew all these people really well. And on top
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: of that, his brother, yeah, a major player at j
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: M waves. C i A you know, A Regaz. That's
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: as close as you can get to the the heart
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: of what was you know, the plot. I mean, who
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: was Melio's friends? David Morales, Tony Schwazer, you know. So,
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: I mean, that's those are the guys he was dealing with.
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: Robertson Sis dude. I mean, if you look at Amelia
• 24:01
  Speaker 6: Rodriguez's notebook, you know, after he was in the hospital,
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: his notebook, who's he got listed there? He's got Rip
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: Robinson's address and phone number. David Phillips, Jake Estelene. This
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: is the guy Nesto's brother. I mean, I don't want
• 24:19
  Speaker 6: to beliebor it, but I mean that's I mean, you
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: don't get close much closer to c I A. You
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: know then Amelia he was he was the guy, you know.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: And you certainly don't get their home phone numbers. You know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: That's that's kind of strange right there. So there's something
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: going on, you know, like, I'll just call him up
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: at home. Okay, I forget about this office stuff. Was
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: all the CIA secrecy, all the secrecy, all the security organization,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: and here's the guy with everybody's home number in his notebook.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: Like, oh yeah, I could go on a legit you know,
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: he's he's he's up there. He's a legit CIA agent.
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: He's very telligent and he spoke like seven languages. And yeah,
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: I mean that's probably a guy you wanted to call
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: uh when you're in a pickle.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: No.
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he knows people.
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: Those people you know, especially you knew everybody and Uh
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: in Havana before the Bay of Pigs, you know, he
• 25:21
  Speaker 6: was one of the stay behind guys. So I mean,
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: this is him and a Nesto worked together at the
• 25:27
  Speaker 6: Modern language school, the Berlett School in New Orleans before
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: Emilio went to Havana and stayed there and became a
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: member of the CIA, you know.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: So yeah, and that was one of the main reasons
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: the CIA was funding the DRE so heavily. It was
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: because they did have a stay behind network in Cuba. Correct, Yes, yeah,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: I mean with the latest releases, we know all the
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: names of who the stay behind people were, you know,
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: I mean I could go down a million rabbit holes here,
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: and some of those people were you know, I mean
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: like Jose Cassas, he was one six. Not to go
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: too far, but he was actually a guy trying to
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: recruit subio Asque, you know, in Mexico City of the
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: Cuban consulate. Yeah, and who did Oswald see two weeks
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: after you know Cassas was there a subiu Asque? You know, so,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: I mean he had a fight with I mean, that's
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: the letter that Rob mentioned that he's going to go
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: back to Cuba. Nobody knew that the CIA was trying
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: to recruit him before he was sent back.
• 26:34
  Speaker 6: You know that that was huge. They literally sent Cassis
• 26:37
  Speaker 6: to try and recruit him, you know, to turn didn't work,
• 26:41
  Speaker 6: but you know, they tried.
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: How the hell did Oswald know that Askq had been
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: sent back to Cuba earth.
• 26:48
  Speaker 6: You know, like scheduled to be sent back. Yeah, and
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: he was there two weeks after Cassas.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, one of one of the fascinating
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: things we don't know for that question, And I don't know.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: I'd love to know if if they had called if
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: they had called Duran back and interviewed her and asked
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: her the right questions. One of the outstanding one of
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: the questions that she did get asked later because she
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: said when Oswald was there that she would if Oswald's
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: visa application got approved, which it did, by the way,
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: and I think none of us knew that for ages
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: that his visa application to go to Cuba had actually
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: been approved. He's back in Dallas and that got approved.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: She had promised him she would get in touch with
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: him and let him know if it got approved. Now
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: I find this interesting because Hosty told me in person
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: that his FBI guys told him that that Oswald's visa
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: application had got approved and he was being sent to visa.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: In fact, Hosty said they actually said he got a visa.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to comment on that. But when they
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: asked Duran whether or not she called Oswald and told
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: him about that, she said, I just don't remember. Now
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: I think she probably remembered. So one of the open
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: questions is Oswa may have heard about what happened and
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: the fact that his visa application got you know, she
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: may have gotten in touch with him afterwards if they had,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: just but you know, we know the CI blocked that
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: from happening. But if they had gotten her in front
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: of the Warren Commission, gotten her testimony right now, a
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: lot of what we wrestle with could have been cleared up.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: But I think that's the best. We don't know, but
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: that may be one answer that she you know, she
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: called him up and said, oh, it got approved, and
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: he said, what about that Cuban guy that was giving
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: me so much trouble? And she said, he's history. I
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: don't know.
• 28:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he was supposed to be going by first week
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: in October, you know, but it didn't end up going
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: until the middle of November, you know, So we.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Don't even know that. She didn't tell that before we left,
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: right be honest, uh, you know, because she was very
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: friendly towards him. There's no doubt about that she processed
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: his stuff. I'm not even sure ask you you that
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: because you know, if if you were asking and you
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: got into the kind of show shouting match that he
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: apparently got into, it would be like Sylvia, you know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Terror's paper work up. Sylvia didn't tear his paper work up.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: She sent it on to Tavanna and it got processed.
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: And was that a euphemism Larry for Sylvia and Lee.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: Oh well yeah, okay, could be or it just might
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: be a mental yeah anyway, But.
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, if that's true, I mean, you know,
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: you can see why she'd be doing a favor if
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: you know.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I you know, we just don't know. But
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: what we keep say is that she wanted to talk.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: It's clear that she she made it clear that she
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: offered and actually said, you bring me up there and
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you all the details. And they blocked that
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: from happening. So what the heck details was she going
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: to tell them that with it? You know, we're so
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: troubling that they kept her in Mexico. Somebody, the CIA
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: and Mexican security made that happen, made her not come back,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: and when she was finally offered a chance, you know,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: it's years later, right, what are you going to do?
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: Well, is her HSCA stuff still uh redacted or.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: No? I think we I think we referenced some of
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: her statements to the HSC David, Uh, Yeah, I don't
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: think it's no, it's there. It's just that it's very incomplete,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: you know, that much after the fact, and quite frankly,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: with that much water into the bridge. You know what
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: she might have said two days afterwards, and what she's
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: going to say at that point in time. You know,
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: let's face it, you know true, you know, with the
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: emotion of the moment, she might have really said, yeah,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: I slept with him. But it is he going to
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: say that five years later, six years later? Probably not?
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I figured.
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: You know, the way the Warrant Commission operated, they wanted
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: to distance Oswald from Mexico in Cuba as much as possible,
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: So of course they deemed that not not not a
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: necessary interview.
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: Probably be my guest. So I see a question, Doug,
• 31:39
  Speaker 6: we're wearing your hats?
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was about to say, a special guest in
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: the chat? What did I miss? Everyone's worrying your hat
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: accept me. I guess it's still on the mouth. So,
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: but no, you haven't missed much. We're going to go
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: over there.
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: Well, I was going to use the line, that's some
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: bad hat there, Larry Lyne from Jew's right, Yeah, yeah.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: All different colors too, Yeah, that goes first class obviously.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: That's obviously Oklahoma rid, Right, Larry, I'm sorry, what is
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: that Oklahoma rid?
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh yeah, but can since say since I'm gonna
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: issue alumni probably the wrong color, but we won't be picky.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Actually it fits. I am a graduate of the University
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: of Mexico and that's our colors.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: There you are.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: So that's that works out better?
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Very nice.
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: Well, uh, let me pull up your power point if
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: you guys don't mind here, and uh, let's you kind
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: of take it from here.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm just amate this.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: We just started this.
• 33:01
  Speaker 6: Oh that's pretty fancy. Yeah, so I see this green
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: thing around it.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: Nice.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: So this is what Larry and I presented at the
• 33:12
  Speaker 6: U in at Lancer and some of the things we
• 33:16
  Speaker 6: want to cover, some of the key points here, believe
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: or not. It's when John Newman and Jeff Morley actually
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: interviewed Jane Roman, and you know, they showed her, you know,
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: one of Oswald's reports that the SAS had on Oswald,
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: and you know, Newman asked her, is this indicative of
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: some sort of operational interest in Oswald's file? In Roman?
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: You know, this is key to me? He says, yes,
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: to me, it's an indicative of a keen interest in
• 33:46
  Speaker 6: Oswald held very closely on the need to know basis
• 33:50
  Speaker 6: by by a SAS. So that's one of the things
• 33:54
  Speaker 6: aren't to go who was the SAS staff in sixty three?
• 33:58
  Speaker 6: You know what are they looking at?
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: And that's the special Affairs staff, right, Yeah, okay.
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: Special Affairs staff. And that's what we go into the
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: history of it a little bit on a couple of
• 34:09
  Speaker 6: the other slides.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just say next slide.
• 34:11
  Speaker 6: Next slide was that it's good. I don't know if
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: you want me to read this whole thing, but you
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: can do whatever you want. Essentially, they took over William
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: Harvey's Task Force W, task Force West, and I never
• 34:26
  Speaker 6: know what the W stood for. Some said it was
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: for William Walker, but I actually read a testimony where
• 34:35
  Speaker 6: one of the guys that worked there says the W
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: stood for West, as in the Western Hemisphere. So again,
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: you know, Task Force W. That was the old Operation Mongoose.
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: So when Harvey had his problems with the Kennedy brothers,
• 34:53
  Speaker 6: they brought in Desmond Fitzgerald, who had been chief of
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: the Far East Division. This is when they sent Harvey
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: to but it actually actually stuck around for quite.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: A few months.
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, from yeah, I think six months or something. Yeah,
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: six months. I never knew exactly when Fitzgerald took over,
• 35:13
  Speaker 6: but I ended up seeing two docs. One Harvey was
• 35:16
  Speaker 6: still writing, you know, as chief for the task for
• 35:20
  Speaker 6: us W in early January, and if January Fitzgerald took
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: over and renamed it to the sas you know, So
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: that's the turnal officially, I saw that recently, but.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Something I pointed out David in a recent document Reallease.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: We discussed this though. I was amazed to see the
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: document that we knew that Harvey, even though he had
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: been transferred to Rome and reassigned, Okay, we knew that
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: he was still tied into staff D because Bill Simpitch
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: is demonstrated he was still getting copied on STAY documents, okay,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: which is counterintelligence, including counterintelligence from Mexico City. So he's
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: still in the staff D loop. But now we've found
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: out that he's still in the new Cuba operations loop
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: as well with SaaS, with Special Affair Staff with Des Fitzgerald,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: because we've seen David and I have been going through
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: documents when they have this Coebella meeting with Fitzgerald in France.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Coebella is in Italy first and Fitzgerald is communicating with
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Harvey about sending him on about what kind of security
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: they want, and obviously he's using some terms so that
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Harvey's been fully bred into what they're doing with Cobella.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: So you know, the new most top secret assassination thing
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: that they're trying to put together is with Cobella, and
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Harvey's read into it. So Harvey's not out of the
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: loop at all. As a matter of fact, there's a
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: there's a little anecdote in one of the messages that
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Fitzgerald sends to him that suggests that Harvey Fitzgerald may
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: be very aware that Harvey was running another assass Nations program,
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: and now Fitzgerald is going to be running an assass
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: Nations program. So I think before this last set of releases,
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: I had, you know, if you went back through or
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: four years, I had really thought that Harvey was out
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: of the loop with Cuban affairs and with SaaS, and
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: he clearly was not. Even though he was in he
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: was still operational. We don't know what he was using
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: that new alias for, we don't know where he was traveling,
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: but he was still not just Chief of Station Rome
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: sitting there and doing paperwork.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Gotcha, all right, let me put this back up here.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: It to David since David's eyesight as much better than
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: I and I just really can't read those powerpoints.
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: Okay, right, so we covered most of that was okay,
• 38:12
  Speaker 6: oh yeah, I don't anybody can see this.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: I can go zoom in.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: So this is what the SAS looked like in sixty three,
• 38:23
  Speaker 6: as best as I could get. Again, you see Desmond Fitzgerald,
• 38:29
  Speaker 6: he was the chief to the left. You see JM Wave.
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: Shackley reported directly to Fitzgerald. I mean, all the guys
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: at JAM Wave reported to Fitzgerald in a way they
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: work for SAS. So if you look at it that
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: big pictures, say, oh, okay, that kind of makes sense.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: Now, Oh I didn't realize Shackley was below Fitzgerald.
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: Yes, okay, yeah, Fitzgerald was literally the chief of the area.
• 38:57
  Speaker 6: Took over Harvey's place. Shackley used to report to Harvey
• 39:02
  Speaker 6: in the same when Harvey was a chief of Task
• 39:06
  Speaker 6: Force W So yeah, it was Harve. Harvey and Shackley
• 39:10
  Speaker 6: were good friends, you know, they worked together in Germany,
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: and then sixty two Harvey sent Shackley to j M
• 39:20
  Speaker 6: WAVE because it was a mess at that time. In
• 39:23
  Speaker 6: sixty two, some of the guys were running amuck, you know,
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: you know, Rocky Farnsworth was just running operations left and
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: right there, and al Cox was the chief of station.
• 39:36
  Speaker 6: He just had an alcohol problem, so Shackley took his
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: place and reorganized it down there. Okay, So if you
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: look at all these other.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: Guys on a focus on John Tilton, who will get
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: into in a little bit. I have some documents and
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: I know he's part of your presentation. You have the
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: Pataki and I'm Pataki there, and of course her husband
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: Cia husband and wife team. You have Carl Jenkins, so
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: I know you guys have done a lot of work
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: on as well, and a lot of other familiar names.
• 40:15
  Speaker 6: Sure, if you look at that, it's like three major
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: pieces to well four the sas. You got your special
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: operations people. Those are the guys that were running the
• 40:26
  Speaker 6: autonomous ops, the am world, your Jurrey things like that.
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: They were people meeting with the Cubans. On the other
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: side a little bit over.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Drinking.
• 40:39
  Speaker 6: You have your external Operations branch. That that's the guys
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: that were running your foreign intelligence, you counterintelligence things going
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: on in Cuba. On the far left, you see a
• 40:55
  Speaker 6: Miami Operations branch. Now these are the guys who are
• 40:58
  Speaker 6: dealing directly what was going on on at JM Wave,
• 41:02
  Speaker 6: so they knew everything.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: Cal Hicks was chief of the paramilitary. Charles matt He's
• 41:09
  Speaker 6: been in a bay of pigs, guys, Guy Vitally was
• 41:13
  Speaker 6: he'd run all the safe houses down in Miami, you know.
• 41:17
  Speaker 6: And then under intelligence, Uh, scroll down right there, so
• 41:26
  Speaker 6: scroll over all right under foreign intelligence you see S A. S. E. D. E.
• 41:33
  Speaker 6: Not to go into too much detail, but Kyle Trenton,
• 41:36
  Speaker 6: you see his name under S A S. Third box down,
• 41:39
  Speaker 6: howsh had a pointer?
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: I do? I'm looking for it.
• 41:43
  Speaker 6: Uh Nope, yeah, under Sherwood you're right right right metal
• 41:54
  Speaker 6: one more, Yeah, Kyle Trenton was in that's the second
• 41:59
  Speaker 6: one down on the Sherwood. He was in stationed in
• 42:04
  Speaker 6: New Orleans. He knew Carl He knew Carlos Springier. He
• 42:09
  Speaker 6: was the case officer for Sylvia Odio's uncle, Augustine greed Toad.
• 42:14
  Speaker 6: He literally is the case officer. He knew Oswald and
• 42:19
  Speaker 6: he actually was told not to touch Oswald with a
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: ten foot poll. He actually Jeff Morley actually interviewed Trenton
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: and it's where we got a lot of that information.
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: Who told him that?
• 42:32
  Speaker 6: He never said. That's a good question. He never said
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: who told him? So I mean, if you look here,
• 42:36
  Speaker 6: you can see who might have told him from this
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: org chot.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: You know these guys.
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: If you go over to the right a little bit
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: under Earth Assistant chief and come down just a little counterintelligence,
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: these are the guys that we're watching Oswald. Go up
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: just a little.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Oh sorry, so.
• 42:57
  Speaker 6: Soa there's a lot of names here, I know, so
• 43:00
  Speaker 6: a lot of names introduced Latin names. Don't go into
• 43:02
  Speaker 6: too much. But when the other slide you look at these,
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: these are the people who are watching Oswald. Austin Horn,
• 43:10
  Speaker 6: Anna Pataki, Louis de Santi. They're all signing off on
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: Oswald's reports. These guys all know who he was, you know,
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: so I won't be like it's too much a lot.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Of detail managing their file right in short.
• 43:28
  Speaker 6: Short, yes, signing off and anything that's coming in.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: For just a minute, if you think about that chart
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: on the left hand side, you've basically got you know,
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: Tilton and and a lot of people that are working
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: on propaganda, political action.
• 43:46
  Speaker 6: Joe go back to the job.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: Okay, sure, oh.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: We had.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: I know, yeah, you could fix it, Rob, I don't
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: know if I can. It's right, I'll redo.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: It all here, yes, But while you're doing it, I
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: can say literally that you've got three kind of complexes
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: at Miami Station. One is dealing with propaganda, political action,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: dealing with the Cuban groups. From from propaganda, Dre is
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: doing a lot of propaganda overseas, They're doing propaganda in
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: Latin America. And so you've got case officers and people
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: that are dealing with the Cubans from that standpoint, non military.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Then over on the farhand, you've got the operations guys,
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: the maritime operations guys who use Cubans to do military operations,
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: and those same guys and we have only seen these recently.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: David brought it to my attention that it is where
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Harvey's anti Castro assassination plot said. Harvey himself said, my
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: Castro assassination plot was run under ZR rifle slash m I,
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: which means Miami Station. These are the guys at Miami
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: Station that were helping with me with ZR rifle devoted
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: to Castro, and that would be people like Morales and
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: Robertson's that's over on the right hand side of the chart, okay,
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: But something that cross pollinates the fact is that DRE
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: spreads across the whole chart laterally, because DRE is being
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: used for both propaganda and they have been used for military,
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: and the CIA is considering using them for military again
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: in this new special military operation. So there are guys
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: all the way across the board in Miami, from Tilton
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: and Joannides over to Morales, who was the military case
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: officer for DRE, who are getting copied on everything related
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: to DRE. So that one of the things that tells
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: you is when something comes down from Oswald, whether it's
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: coming down from the FBI, and the FBI is telling
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: all of these people about Oswald and the DRE. By
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: the way, it's stunning when you really look back and
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: see how much the FBI is telling the CI in
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: Miami about what Oswell is doing with the DRE in
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: New Orleans. Something else coming through join Edes is just
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: lateral to that. But this set of people from Tilton
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: through the people that are working with Tilton, like Joines
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: and like Phillips, all the way across the Morales are
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: copied because DRE is involved, whether it's going to be
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: propaganda or whether it's going to be military. They're both
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: still on the board, not just for began. And again
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: that's something David to surface that the d R he
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: was pitching themselves real hard to be brought into this
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: new military operation against Cuba, and they weren't really shut
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: down until October. Up until that time, they were very
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: actively pitching themselves and talking about a new military role.
• 47:23
  Speaker 5: How early was the FBI reporting on Oswald to the Miami.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Station within a week of the demonstrations, David, I mean
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: as soon as Osweald was arrested and had the interview,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: yeah August with the FBI in New Orleans, they shoot
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: it up to headquarters. Headquarters immediately interrogates Oswald's file and
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: goes back to Hosty, and that the memo that goes
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: to Hosty also goes to Miami to the c and
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: literally says is this Oswell character? Is this an issue
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: of national security? And Haisty responds' response and his response
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: gets copied to Miami. So this whole chain of communications
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: on Oswell and the die and his dy and his
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: arrest and this this follow up that's coming out of
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: FBI headquarters is all getting copied to Miami. And the
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: interesting thing is it's getting copied by the guy at
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: the FBI Cuba desk.
• 48:34
  Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, I was just wondering how early in sixty
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: three that they were reporting on him.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, like within a week of his arrest. Yeah, it
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: was quick.
• 48:46
  Speaker 6: And Rob. One of the key points that you should
• 48:50
  Speaker 6: know about is that September things really started to heat
• 48:53
  Speaker 6: up for Oswald. They really started looking at them. So, yeah,
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: I don't which guy was for the FBI. But the
• 49:00
  Speaker 6: FBI went to Frank Bartes and says, do you know
• 49:04
  Speaker 6: b Javi Oswald? Have you you know, do you know
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: where he is? He goes, I have no idea what
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: you're talking about. I don't know who Lejavey Oswald is.
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: So that was September tenth. Bartes was at his court here.
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: He knew exactly who Oswald was, right, Yeah. And Bartes's
• 49:20
  Speaker 6: name is in Oswald's address book, you know, So I
• 49:23
  Speaker 6: mean it's well, his.
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: Name is also in a lot of FBI reports, yes, yes, yes,
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: where he's informing. Yeah, seemingly for the FBI's one of.
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: The things that we go to into the book and
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: into our new study is the fact that I think
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: we've been I was off base a little bit. We
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: kind of have only been thinking of the DRE in
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: New Orleans as being the Cubans in contact with Oswald.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: That's not correct. In fact, there are only a couple
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: of d R guys bring here in New Orleans that
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: were DRE. The rest of the guys, from our Nesto
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: to his father, to to Bartes, all these other guys
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: are what you'd call old school. These guys have been
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: informants for the FBI and the CIA since before the
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: Bay of Pigs. You know, they're not DRE. They're just
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: you know, we're the.
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: Camp Street.
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, yep. So we we've I think we tend
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: to be diverted by Oswald kind of hooking himself up
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: with the DRE. And it's all about the DRE the
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: people he really got hooked into that were informants that
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: suddenly stop informing. Here's the curious thing. Up to that
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: point in time, they they are very open about pointing
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: out and fingering any possible Cuban asset, you know, Cuban spy,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: a Cuban supporter, whatever. And and David can show you
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: all sorts of reports where they're providing information. Uh, Sylvia
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: Odio's uncle is part of a targeting group looking for
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: those sorts of people in New Orleans. And then suddenly
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: it stops. It's like, we're not we're not sharing any
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: more information about Oswell? Who as Well?
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: Who in the in the fall of sixty three.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was like early in September.
• 51:26
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so September was a key month. I feel you know,
• 51:31
  Speaker 6: you got Oswell going to Dallas, you know, visit Sylvia Odio.
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: How does he know the address? The people with her
• 51:39
  Speaker 6: and know the address in her phone numbers?
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: He know her phone number? Yeah? Who the heck knows
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: her phone number except her uncle because.
• 51:47
  Speaker 6: She had only been there six weeks and still like
• 51:49
  Speaker 6: you can find it in the phone book, right.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: So this is a big part of the story that
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: But that's that's the how did Oswell get hooked?
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: Story?
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Back to the propaganda story. So let's get back to
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: that a little bit.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Sure, Sure, I'll go to the next live here.
• 52:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: The point is, so at this point, we're dealing with
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: the fact that there are a lot of people at
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: Miami Station that if you anything happens with the DRE
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: they're informed about it because they get copied, and they're
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: all getting copied across the board. So the other big
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: thing that starts happening is at this point in time,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: the guy that's running the FBI Cuba desk at his
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: orders is the guy that's in touch with Tilton and
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: sharing information with Tilton. Okay, Well, the interesting thing is
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: Tilton goes back to his contact at the FBI and says,
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: you know, we've got a good working relationship. We like
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: the FBI to help us. Now we all know that
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: the FBI and the CI are hand in glove, right,
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: they always share information. That was sarcastic, guys. But but
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: his his contact, that guy says, sure, you know, because
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: they had already asked a favor. The FBI had asked
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: a favor of the CIA and Tilton in Miami station,
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: and that was because they were prepping an FBI asset,
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: actually Vincenti, who worked in the air Fairplay for Cuba office.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: They're preparing him to go into Cuba as a spy
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: and collect information. This is the FBI, not the CIA.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: They asked the CIA to brief Vincenti. Okay, brief, and
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: who's who's who in the cast or regime. You know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: if you run into them, what kind of information are
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: we interested in? And so the CIA is very helpful,
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: and CI is used to doing this kind of thing.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: That the CIA has a program apparently that we don't
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: know a whole lot about. It's probably called Am Santa,
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: and that they have been running their own, you know,
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: intetration agents for some time. But so they help the FBI.
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: And so now Tilton is going back and saying, we
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: know we helped you. We need some help. We know
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: you've got this guy deep in the fb CC, and
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: I'm starting to put together a really black propaganda program
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: about the FPCC that we're going to take to Central America.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: But I need some stuff I can work with. I
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: need some documents, I need some correspondents. I need some
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: you know, current stuff from you that we can rework
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: to make it look really bad and spread. You know,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: we need the FBC to look dangerous, We need them
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: to look radical, We need them to be if we're
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: going to do if we're going to scare people in
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: Central America, we need to make this look good or
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: look bad. So what is vincent VINCENTI is the one
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: that provides the information and guess what kind of information
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: he's going to be providing. In terms of correspondence, VINCENTI
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: is the one that's been corresponding with Lee Harvey Oswald.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: Vincenty responds to Oswald's letters, he sends some literature. So
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: here we have another tag where the FBI Cuba ESK
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: through their asset in the FPCC is starting to provide information,
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: including Oswald's correspondents for this new propriate propaganda program. Which
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: because it's.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: So Vincent T.
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: Lee or whatever his name was, this is not the
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: same guy right as Vincent.
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: Different guy. This guy was. This guy was really connected.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: He worked in the office. He was a volunteer, but
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: he was really tightly connected, Like he knew the the
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: Cuban representative to the UN when there and he he
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: had been actually not just an FPCC recommended, he was
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: recommended to the Communist Party, and the Communist Party supported
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: his going into Cuba. They kind of gave him a pass.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: He was a He was a real key guy for
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: the FBI, very connected, very unlike Oswald. This guy, Vincentia
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: is connected. Oswald was not. He just wrote some letters.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: So what we're pointing out is we've got We've got
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: people in Miami that know about Oswald from all over
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: the place. We know from Tilton's own letter memo that
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: he's kicking off putting together building information and building going
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: to build the material required to put together a really
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: nasty anti FPCC black propaganda program. And by black, that
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: means it's not going to run in the US, it's
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: going to run in Latin America, and it's going to
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: run through the CIA sources to put information deniably into
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: Latin America. And one of those sources we know a
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: couple of those sources. One runs through Mexico, Kia City
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: under David Phillips, and it's called Cam Forget. Is that right, David?
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: And one runs through New Orleans, by the way, with
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: a group that a lot of people have heard of
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: called Inca Butler, Yes Day Butler. Who what do we
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: find Dave Butler doing? Taking the recordings of Lee Harvey
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Oswald and in September and October preparing a propaganda program
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: including a transcribed and translated recording of Oswald. They're getting
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: ready to launch this propaganda program, and it's ready to
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: launch at the time of the assassination. As a matter
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: of fact, they start putting this stuff out by December,
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: so they were right on the.
• 57:52
  Speaker 6: Cusp Noby the recording consent it Adusta Rodriguez And have
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: you guys read Colas spring Are. Yeah, you recorded it,
• 58:05
  Speaker 6: you know, and made a copy of it. You know,
• 58:07
  Speaker 6: that's that's his thing, you know.
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I just put up two documents of subject
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: Psychological Operations Group.
• 58:18
  Speaker 5: You actually put him up yet, but involving told him,
• 58:21
  Speaker 5: oh no, real quick. Have you all read the Ed
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: Butler piece about where he describes like meeting Oswald in
• 58:29
  Speaker 5: a restaurant and having a drink with him? No, no, no, wow,
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: that's a good one.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: Was this before or after he trashed him on air?
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: After?
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: It?
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: Was it before?
• 58:46
  Speaker 6: I don't know, it might have been before, Actually.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: I think I have Rob. I mean, it's just one
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: of those I think I've read.
• 58:52
  Speaker 6: It's a very odd story.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Maybe it was after that. Maybe it was right after
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: the radio show and also after that and we left
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: the studio and we just sat down and you know,
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: we're trying to well, what Butler Butler is obviously doing,
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: is he's trying to, you know, get information from Oswell,
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: is this guy really what he's saying he is. You know,
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: so that was that. I have seen that. I think
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: it was right afterwards, very hard.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: Well, but I was good at that sort of thing.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: He was always looking for content. I mean, he was
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: a marketing guy. So he he he wants to hear
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: Oswell say stuff that's even worse than what he said
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: on the air. Tell me you're a real comedy lee.
• 59:40
  Speaker 5: Okay, he went to Oswald's apartment too, didn't he?
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: Then?
• 59:44
  Speaker 6: I don't know, I know Koga did collors Ka.
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: I think you did too.
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: That would be interesting. If you've got something on that,
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: I'd sure like to see it.
• 59:54
  Speaker 5: Okay, I'll see if I can dig it up.
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I have up right now h two
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: of nineteen sixty two documents relating to John Tilton subject
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: Psychological Operations Group. And then I believe this is what
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: you were referring to a minute ago, right, the nine
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: thirteen sixty three Yes played for Cuba, documented.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: September thirteenth, right right. And one of the big reasons
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: this gets my attention, and I'm always very sensitive this
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: is we know that the CIA was spending a lot
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: of money on psyops in Central America to support this
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: new military initiative, you know, AM World and these special projects,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: and we know David's even looked at there. But they're
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: spending tons of money and we know nothing about it.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: We don't what was this. What's the CRYPT for this
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: propaganda program? We don't know. We've got a CRYPT for
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: all the military programs. We don't know anything of what's
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: happen depending on the propaganda side. And they were obviously
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: taking it serious if they're even pulling the FBI in
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: for content. So why don't we have that? I mean,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: we need to be looking for that. But my suspicion
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: is we don't have that because that's where they plan
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: to use Oswald. Not not Oswald, Oswald's correspondence. You know,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: you could rewrite his letters and make him look pretty interesting,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: you know, in any event, So my I'm very suspicious
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: that we don't know more about this propaganda program or
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: any of the psyops programs than we do.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: Well, let me ask you this, is there a document
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: documented relationship between Tilton and David Attley Phillips being kind
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: of both in psychological Oh Scioto?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: When when when Fitzgerald brings Phillips into says, right that
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: summer he's bringing in to do things related to am
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: World and sciops, including propaganda out of Mexico City. He's
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: going to be doing propaganda's support m World. We know
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: that when he traveled, when he left Mexico City while
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: Oswood was there, went to d C and then went
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: to Miami. You know, there is no document that. That's
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: an interesting point. It just the only document we have
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: is that he went to t d Y to Mexico
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: City to meet about you know, on his assignment.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: That.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: No, there's not a document about you know, Tilton met
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: with Phillips. I wish there was, but we don't have that.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: But I believe that he did. That's that's what Fitzgerald
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: pulled him in to do, and and all of all
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: of his the people that were interviewed about what Phillips
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: were doing was, you know, philip specialty was psychological warfare.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: Even Phillips said about himself, they called me in to
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: consult on psychological warfare projects. I was kind of like
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: a consultant for the agency. So no document. Would love
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: to find it. I'm all here, somebody send it to me, Hilton,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: psyops anything, But yeah, I think I certainly think, Actually, David,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: you want to David, and I feel that both Joe
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: and Edie's new assignment, you know, his new clearance that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: for stuff was for the new special operation for am
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: World Phillips operate. We feel that they got were pulled
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: into this. This was their new assignment with syops support
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: for m World and for propaganda. I see, and so
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: I'll go even further than that. I'll jump the fence.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: How about the defense? I can jump?
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: Please do ross.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: I used not to do this, but now that I'm older, Hey,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: what the heck? We talked about the fact that Oswell
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: shows up in Mexico City. There's a recording. There's a
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: recording that we don't have anymore. There's a recording that
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: the Terra Sauce described of Oswell talking to the Cuban
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: embassy asking for support, asking for money. He's been threatened,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: he's being harassed. You know, this is pretty inflammatory stuff.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: The Terra Sauce remember it. Phillips remembers it, nobody else
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: remembers it. And then we have the CIA telling the
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: HSCA don't believe anything. Phillips says he had no clue
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: about what was going on. I do not believe that.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: I do not believe that the special attention pouch that
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: was sent to him from Mexico City as he left
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: for his hand only this is a State department pouch.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: Usually it doesn't go to CIA unless it really is important,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: and this is a large pouch, just more than paperwork.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: I my suspicion is that Oswald being in Mexico City
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: and being recorded was going to become content for this
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: new propaganda program. And Phillips is really quick on the money.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: When he's got a tape of Oswald talking to the
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: Soviets about asking for money and asking for support, you
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: can imagine what they could do with that. Yeah, definitely,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: now that I've totally screwed up and gotten all his
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: sequence in the PowerPoint, back to you all right.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 6: Well, back to back on the other side of the fence.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, back on the other side of the fence.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: We go to the next slide. Here we have will Pataki.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: So do you want to explain give a little background
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: to the audience of who he.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 6: Was, and that be me. Will He worked for James
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 6: Angleton and he he had worked in the Soviet opts.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 6: Him and his wife worked for William Harvey back in
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 6: the old Berlin operations based there way back, and Harvey
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 6: pulled them over. You know, Anna Pataki was working for him,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 6: Anita who's working for him under Task Force W and
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: then she continued to work on the sa S for
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 6: the sa S counterintelligence Soviet Satellite Group. As you see there,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 6: we can take a look at we have an ORG
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 6: chot for counterintelligence. I'll show you where will Pataki shows up.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I have a slide on him.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Let me just pull it up. Uh fucking find it?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Here we go.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: Uh So, William At Pataki with wife Anita formed a
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: husband and wife CI a team working with SIG with
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: muhander c I A slash ops operations, counter intelligence operations.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 6: We can't see the screen.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Here we go.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: I'll just read it again. With wife Anita formed a
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: husband and wife's team working SIG with mole hunters, counterintelligence
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: dash ops. I think it's probably a little outdated. It
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: is probably definitely deceased by now. And I believe the
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: bottom part is from State secret. It's well established. At
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: an uh Ergatur of CI SIG Angleton's counterintelligence analysts had
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: full control of Oswalt's biographical file. Ergatur answered to CI
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: SIG chief Versh O'Neil and to Engleton himself. Two other
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: teams of counterintelligence officers were also keeping an eye on Oswalt.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: The second team was husband and wife team Anita and
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: Will Pataki. Anita was Harvey's chief of staff at staff
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: T just like you said, while also working counterintelligence at
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: headquarters in the Cuba Division. Bill's title was ci OPS,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: indicating that he worked in the Operations Group in Angleton's division.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: He also had a second title, ci og SS, indicating
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: that he wore a second hat as Angleton's security staff
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: for the Operations Group. And I believe that that's from
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: State Secret Chapter five.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think one of the things, this is
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: where we get into we're talking about September. Rabi ask
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: ask kind of timeline this by September. There are a
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: number of people in Miami Station across the board that
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: are very much well aware of Oswald. Okay, there's just
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: no doubt about that anymore. And all of those people
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: obfuscated and lied and whatever after the fact. So there's
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: something going on with Oswald because one of the things,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: why he's liked to put in context, this is their
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: day job. There's nothing wrong with all those people knowing
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: about Oswald. As a matter of fact, everybody is doing
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: their job. The FBI is doing its job. Oswell could
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: have been a national security issue, Okay. I mean at
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: that point in time, you know, he's been to Russia.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: Everybody's doing their job, everybody's sharing information, and then suddenly
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: after the assassination, they all go.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: Dumb.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: You know, It's like it's just like, no, never heard
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: of him. Why wouldn't they say, why would you not admit? Yeah,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: we were doing our job. We were you know, obviously
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: they got closer to him than just monitoring that. That's
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: why we we submit that there is evidence of operational interest.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: And one of the things that goes along with that
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: is where's Oswell files? Set his personality file, his two
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: one file, the file it's supposed to contain all the
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: current information on Oswald. It sets up in their security
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: and counterintelligence and what happens in the September October timeframe
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: that file is emptied out. I think what maybe they
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: are like six to eight documents left in it. Everything
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 3: having to do with the DRE and his contemporary information
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: is pulled out into a saw file that's being separated
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: and is no longer if you query that headquarters file,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: Oswell is still in Russia, which is exactly what happened
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: when Mexico City says, hey, Oswell's down here, what's going
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: on with him? Give us your best shot, and they
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: come back. Headquarters come back and said, well, he's in Russia.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: We think he married a Russian girl and he may
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: come back to the US.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: No, wait a minute, hold on, why would you do that?
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: Something's very wrong? Is that information?
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 5: Because I always thought, you know why, because like I said,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 5: we were looking at these letters to the Russian embassy
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: and they were They kept telling Marina, no, you need
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 5: to come to DC in person and tell us why
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: you want to go back, which I think they had
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: the reasons for wanting her there in person. But all
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 5: it seems, at least I couldn't find any more correspondence
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 5: past July eighth with with Marina and the embassy.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: It's like.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 5: It's like we're missing some correspondence here, because at least
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 5: for the month of August or the later in July.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 5: It just doesn't seem like they would all of a
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: sudden just stop because she was literally begging them in
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 5: every letter she wrote. You know, please, I want to
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 5: send send me back. I want to have my baby
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 5: in Russia. Blah blah blah.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: And and Oswell is too. Oswell writes, I think it
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: was in August.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 5: Please, Why is he going to make the city instead
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 5: of going to DC to the Russian embassy. That's that's
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 5: where my disconnect is. It's like he was told to
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 5: go to Mexico City.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: Oswald's agenda is not Oswell's agenda is not Marina's agenda.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: At this time, I think Oswell's agenda is getting Marina
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: off his back, basically. I mean, I hate to put
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: it that way, but she herself said that, she writes
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: and testified Oswald just wanted to get rid of her.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 5: Well, see, he wrote July first and said, get my
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 5: wife back, don't worry about me. She writes them a
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: week later on July eighth and says, oh, no, you
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 5: know we're coming back together, right, And then it just
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 5: stops until November ninth. I just think there's some some
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 5: missing correspondence in there somewhere.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: There's got to be either that or that's what he
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: told her. I mean, I don't want to represent that.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: Oswald always tells the truth to everybody all the time,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: and is straightforward with him. I think older that you know, Uh, David,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: what's your what's your cut?
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, there's some right, Like Rob said, there's there's something
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 6: missing too, you know, I don't know. Maybe did Os
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 6: will convince her that everything's okay. We're gonna go back.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 6: First we have to go back to Dallas. Get your
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 6: friend Ruth Payne to come pick us up. Go back
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 6: to Dallas. She's coming to get us, you know, and
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 6: I'll meet you in Dallas. We get a job, everything's fine.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 5: Or he was thinking that he was going to get
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: from from Mexico City Street to Cuba and then me
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: telling her, I'll meet you back in Russia. You know
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: they're gonna, yeah, they're gonna send you back because I'm
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 5: no longer there. We're married, you're a Rusturan citizen.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for perfectly plausible. And she said she he
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: told her that once already. As David said, you know,
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: he told her if he could get to Cuba, you know,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: well whatever he would send for. And she said, fine,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: but yeah, I think that's and and let's face it,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: she's pregnant, she's late in her term, she's moving, she's
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: got a small child. You know, if Oswald says, you know,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna take care of it. You just
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: get moved and get settled in and get ready to
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: have the baby, and you know I'll be back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 5: Letter You know that the Russian embassy was unprepared for him.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: But in a way, if if what he said was
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: going to happen had happened, you're right, Rob, it would
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: have been that he would have gone to Mexico City,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: he would have gotten to Cuba, and what he told
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: the Cubans was, I just want a temporary visa so
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: I can be here until her travel is fixed. Well,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: as you say, if he was gone and in Cuba,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: you know she's going to end up back in Russia
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: or she's gonna end up you know, that's what he
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: wants it. So that's kind of consistent in a way.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: And he could he can fool himself. That's another thing
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: about Oswald. Oswell can fool himself when he's going after
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: what he wants. It's kind of like in Russia. You
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: know they're gonna I'm gonna tell them and I'm gonna
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: it's gonna work out so I just see you. Yeah,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: I just see him as much more situational. Oswell is like,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: does he have goals? Does he have agendas yet? Does
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: he have really good plans? Yeah, but they hardly ever
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: work like he thinks they're gonna work. They're not gonna Sorry,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: they're not going to greet you with open arms at
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: the Cuban embassy even though you think they are.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 5: Uh, it's well, why didn't he think his gun out
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 5: of the Cuban embassy and demand, you know, instead of
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 5: it the Russian embassy that that's.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: That's an it? Maybe maybe ask you hadn't mate a
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: chokehold already.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 5: I mean, that's why would he take his pistol allegedly
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 5: to Mexico and then pull it out in the Mexican
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 5: embassy or are they Russian embassy and start crying?
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 6: Did he really?
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know I can give you an answer. Oswald
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: certainly did carry. Oswald had no problem carrying a pistol.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: And back then, you know, could you get through security
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: with a pistol? Yeah, you could. He just went through
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: a checkpoint at the you know, it's not like today,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: so he could. Heck, that's not unexpected, and we know,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: Lee Arvey carried the pistol and you know didn't bother
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: him to carry a pistol. My take would be that
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: he was desperate. It is what we see reflected in
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: that phone calls disappeared when they say he was desperate
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: and agitated and you know, was afraid to go back
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: to the US, and he you know, he was showing
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: us how desperate he was by pulling that know, my
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 3: life's in danger. Well, let's shift gears and let's think
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: about it for just a minute. Lee Harvey Oswold had
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: lied to the FBI in New Orleans. Lee Harvey Oswell
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: had more than just lied. Lee Harvey Oswell had told
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: them he was part of a subversive group on their
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: list in New Orleans. They had secret meetings, they informed
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: on each other only by telephone. Lee Harvey Oswell had
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: had this is all a lie. He had led the FBI.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 3: And what's going to happen, What should happen when they
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: get their act together? Harvey might very well have expected,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: if you know, when I go back, They're going to
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: be waiting for me and I'm going to jail, you know,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: because I did lie. I lied to them big time,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: not just a little lie, but he led them on
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: for weeks, and David and I both suspect that it
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: may very well have gotten to the point where they
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: were carrying him as a provisional subversive informant. I think
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: Deburius had set him up as a p s I
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: because he should have. That's the way that the practices were.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: He should have been recruited as ps I, and there
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: should have been contact with him. He had had a quota,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: right yeah, And that's that they had a quote. And
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: that's why Hoover and Johnson allowed Deberris not to testify
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: on certain things. He was only given two questions that
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: he could give answers to. Were you aware of le
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 3: os in New Orleans? Yes? And I think there was
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: one other. But there's a whole host of other questions
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: that should have been asked that were not. But but
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: back to your thing, right, yeah, I think where was Oswalt?
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he ended up going back to the US, but
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: I think he's he certainly presented himself as desperate in
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: that phone call and at the Russian embassy. Was that
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: all an act? I mean, you're talking about a guy
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: who slid his risk in Russia? To get to stay.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: You know, he's a drama queen. He certainly can be
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: a drama queen, no doubt about it.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know. The behavior pattern is definitely consistent. And
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 4: want to highlight something from James Smith, one of our
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 4: channel supporters is ergatur seeing everything then at least everything
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: on paper that is yeah, I guess from counter intelligence
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 4: under Angleton.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And so that takes us back to pulling the file.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: So why was the soft file made? Why was the
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: compartmentalization done. The compartmentalization is done. It's only the people
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: that are holding the DRE files and working the DRE
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: angle see Hosswell's own file. They're the only ones, and
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: those are the people in Miami. Okay. So again, the
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 3: argument I would make is that is an argument for
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: an operational interest in Oswald because they've compartmentalized him from
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: the rest of the agency. And as a matter of fact,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: they've compartmentalized him from the FBI. If the FBI were
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: to request any information from headquarters, it's not there. So
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: they have compartmentalized this stuff by making that soft file.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: And and I think, David, what's the quote? You have
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: a couple of quotes that we.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: It's from uh, I could put it back up.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we got a bunch of slides there and then
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 6: you could whip through them really quick. And yep, the
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 6: last one. This is what we talked about, what we knew.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 6: Next line, Okay, make this, we talked about this. See
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 6: this is the key one. But when Jane Roman said,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 6: as to be some point for withholding information from Mexico City,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 6: like you said, Mexico City Station, they didn't know all
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 6: these things about Oswald? What s a s did Miami knew?
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: And you know in headquarters do certain people within headquarters
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 6: doo all about Oswald? And they kept that quiet.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 5: You know, maybe they weren't banking on Oswald going to Mexico.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 5: You know, yeah, that could be where the the old
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 5: time Cubans sent them. You know, yeah, he pulled the
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 5: old switcheroo on him instead of going to Washington.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: He says, hell, yeah, I think that would be a shock.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: Rob.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 3: I think that's a it's a very good comment that
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: that's they would have probably been perfectly fine with him
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: just staying where he was. And you know, Mexico City
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: is a shock. I think it was a shock to
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 3: Phillips if Phillips is already involved in this propaganda project.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 3: You know, they're setting, they're starting to write their documents
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: and fake stuff. You know, suddenly Oswald shows up. It's like, geez,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 3: he's not supposed to be.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 6: What do we do now?
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's some opportunity.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 5: And we just showed a couple months ago and I
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 5: found some documents that showed like the camera system, the
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 5: V two trigger mechanisms and all this stuff, and at
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 5: the Mexico City station that there was trained on the embassies.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 5: And it's amazing how clear those cameras were and how
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 5: close they could get to these faces. I mean, if
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 5: Oswald was there, they would have got this guy dead
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 5: to rights. I mean, there's no mistaken who's coming in
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 5: and out of these doors in these places.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I agree, they just we don't see the picture.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: Right right, And.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: I almost wonder if you know Oswalt is dead kind
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 4: of at this point, right, like, is it worth it
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 4: to blow some of our most sensitive ops over this.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: We already kind of have them dead to rights type
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: of thing.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: Here's how we got this picture. Let us Well, that's
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: a good point, Joe. You remember how crazy the FBI
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: went when they took the picture back and showed it
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: in Dallas of the guy that went into the Russian embassy. Yeah,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: then it because it was like maybe this is Jack Ruby, remember,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: And the FBI went berserk and said, you can't do that.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: You know, you're blowing our whole thing. That's just that's Ruby.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: How bad would it be if it's Oswald's picture that
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: we're showing around. But I agree with you. Rob Phillips
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: wrote an interesting note to the FBI because the FBI
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: was also investigating this other guy that had gone into
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 3: the Cuban embassy, and Phillips looked at it and said,
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: we can assure you he wrote this memo of the FBI,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: we can assure you that he did not go into
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: the Cuban embassy because our photographic surveillance gives us a
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: picture of everyone that went into the embassy during this
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: you know, this period of time. That's the period of
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: time when Ozwa was there. It's like, Dave, did you
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: just forget that? You know, everybody can make a slip,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: I guess, but you know, yeah, but but to to
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: get Yeah, so maybe this is a shock, Maybe that
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: it's an opportunity Let's let's face it, what comes out
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: of David Phillips in Mexico City after the assassination is
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 3: the Alvarado story. Yeah, do we know that. I don't
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: know that Phillips already wasn't really preparing a Oswald threatened
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 3: to kill JFK storyline that he just kind of like,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: oh darn, he's dead. I'm still going to use this, Okay. Uh,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: it's like we were, we're creating this to point towards
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: Castro and Castro, you know, killing jail. Let's let's use it,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 3: just run it out there. But but to get back
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: to what we're talking about, is that really as far
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: as the operational interest, What we can absolutely say is
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: there's a new propaganda project being set up in Miami.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: These people know all about Oswald. At the same time
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: this happens, his file gets pulled and it gets compartmentalized
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 3: and they start withholding information. And that's pretty good, pretty
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: good indication that they are considering in for use in
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 3: that program. How far that got where it got, we
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: have no idea because we don't see anything more about
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: that program. Uh, it just advanishes, Uh it did it?
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: There would be every indication to think that it would
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: be continuing up to the time of the assassination because
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: INCA is still building their program and then suddenly it's gone.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 3: So I guess that would be that that kind of
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 3: puts quick to it, and you would understand why and
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: why all the documentation And that's not the only pace
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: it disappears. Everything about Oswald in New Orleans, Oswald and
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: the DRE. You know, everything starts getting scrubbed. If you
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: look at the master file of DR activities and what
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: was going on around DRE, which should have had all
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: the information from the FBI if nowhere else, it's not there.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: David and I went through the DRE group history and
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: they're talking about, oh, the DR did this with students,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: the DR did with with radio programs, but most are
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: thing that they did with students and radio programs is
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: in New Orleans and it's not in there. So what
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: happened to it? And why isn't it in there?
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 5: Because that is domestic, Larry, That's why.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: Well, the other was domestic. They're writing about they're using
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: the DR in New York City to sabotage a U
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: N thing, and they're writing about them doing that. They're
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: writing about it's like.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 5: These South America and Latin America with their little signs
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 5: and propaganda and all the bullshit they were doing down there.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: You know. But the one I'm talking about is literally
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: where the CIA talks about the fact that some Cubans
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: of some students have come back from Cuba and they've
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 3: gone on the radio in New York City, and the
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 3: DR didn't jump on it, they didn't go on the radio.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 3: But then they come back and say, well, we're going
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: to counter We're going to get our own airtime and
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: we're going to get on this is domestic stick. We're
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: going to counter that propaganda hear inside the US. So
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's there are domestic things that are
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: in that report.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: And by the way, that reports just for the US.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just for the CIA. We're never supposed
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: to see it.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 5: It is deniable.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's deniable anyway. But David, what am I?
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 4: So?
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: I guess basically that that's what leads us. Those are
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: some of the things that lead us to the point
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: of take that our take that Oswald was actually being
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: considered for operational use in this propaganda project and his activities.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 3: You know, maybe they contributed to it. Maybe we don't know,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 3: but maybe, as you said, maybe you're showing up in
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: your land that maybe that wasn't you know, maybe that
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 3: wasn't the plan. Maybe that threw them off, and who
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: knows what Phillips decided to do with it. Over to you,
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 3: David say something, coach, I'm rambling.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 6: Okay, I was like, So essentially they must have screwed
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 6: up somewhere, the plotters, right, So what do they what
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 6: do they do? They send one of their top guys
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 6: to meet David Phillips on eleven twenty two sixty three.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 6: Who's Tony Sporzer? I don't know if some of you
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 6: guys know their name? So don't He was again, go back,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 6: Amelia Rodriguez's best good friend. You know, they were the
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 6: stay behind network in Havana. So Tony spor is meeting
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 6: with David Phillips on eleven twenty two, either at the
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 6: station or calling it at home. Okay, world War three
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 6: could be happening. President of the assassin you know of
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 6: the US has been assassinated. Why is Tony going to
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 6: meet with David Phillips? Should they all be all hands
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 6: on deck? Like, what's going on is World War three happening?
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 6: Did the Russians do it? Who's this guy? Oswald was arrested?
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 4: You know, So.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 6: Again I'll get off the fence of speculate that was saying, oh, Dave,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 6: you know, we gotta gotta cover us, right, So make
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 6: you believe that Oswald met with kat Castro and the Cubans.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 6: They give them sixty five hundred dollars. Anybody they could
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 6: do that. Oh yeah, I got an asset, Alvarado will
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 6: do that for me.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 6: So again, it was all hands on deck and all
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 6: of a sudden, all these stories came out of nowhere. Then,
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 6: weren't really prepared for Oswald actually being arrested, you know,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 6: so they seem to you're rushed. Yeah, I mean I
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 6: think met with Phillips. We got the documents. I'm not
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 6: making that crap up.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: You know that.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 6: You know, Henry Sloman, that's his you know, his pseudonym
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 6: was a meeting with Michael Chodin. Who's David Phillips, you
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 6: know so, I mean eleven twenty two, you know, so
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 6: at night, you know, so that's one of the one
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 6: of the key points right there. Who's doing what when?
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: You know and if you look at it, that's really
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 3: embarrassing for Phillips in a way, okay, because the story
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: doesn't hang together. The Alvarado story was very sensational and dramatic,
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 3: and everybody in DC was concerned about it for a
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: couple of days, but it didn't hang together. Alvarado had
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: not been prepped enough. They didn't have all the dates, sink,
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 3: they didn't have all the corobber. But if they'd had it,
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: and which was really raises, you know, were they preparing
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: something where they just two thirds of the way there
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: because Tom Mann, you know, everybody in Mexico City bought it,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: the CIA station chief, the ambassador, they bought it. And
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: they are if you look at the cables going back
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 3: and forth for like seventy two hours, they're they're putting
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: it on Castro. They are really making a case to
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 3: headquarters that Castro did this. We got the proof, you guys.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 3: And and Washington isn't an uproar quietly, you know, because
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 3: this is pretty convincing. If if they'd added a little
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 3: tighter things could have been really difficult for the United States,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: for Cuba, whatever. But but somebody launched it before it
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: was ready and some of this stuff was pretty solid.
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at the details on the
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: Avarado report that talks about a red headed Cuban who's
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: a real activist anti you know, very violent anti American
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: anti JFK. Yeah, there was guy there like that, simpitch
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: did research on him, somebody, So it's somebody built it.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 3: Somebody prepped Alvarado with certain information. Yet so some of
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: it was solid. And the other part about oh well,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: you were just standing out in the lobby and you
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: heard them offer cash to Oswald Philip president. No, that's
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 3: not okay, all right, So somebody didn't have their act
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: totally together. But it is fascinating that Phillips in his
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: later books actually carried on that story. If you look
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: at a couple of his books written after his retirement,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 3: he writes that absolutely Oswell came back to the United
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 3: States with thousands of dollars in cash to kill the president,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: which is why is he doing this?
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: And night Watch. Yes, although I was surprised to find
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: he actually wrote four books. I thought he only did one.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: But so why would he say with that story? So
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: Star there's something about him, and then there's something about
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 3: his story about uh.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 5: You know this the.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: The play that he was writing where he says, oswell,
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: you know, we were prepping Oswald to kill Castro and
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: then he turned and we lost control of him and
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: he killed jf There. Something about this is obsessive for Phillips.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 3: Something about that storyline.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 5: It's almost like he was left out of the loop
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 5: a little bit and then was trying to put the
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 5: pieces together after the fact.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's more like just again jumping the fence.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: I think David's going down the right line. I think
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 3: Seporza came in and said, look, Dave, you know, you
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: know you got to help us out. We got hung
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 3: out to dry. They weren't supposed to catch this Oswod
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 3: guy alive. Can you know what can we do? Can
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 3: we what's a diversion? How can we put this? Because
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 3: they would have known that Phillips would sell his soul
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 3: to get Castro. I mean that's where Phillips was. So
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 3: can you do something? What can we do to point
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 3: this to Castro and do it quickly?
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 5: You know the problem is the big red boogeyman standing
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 5: right behind Castro.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: You know, so we know I didn't but you know,
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 3: but it did divert attention from nobody pulled up and said,
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 3: went to the guys in Miami station and said, what
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: about those Cubans that you were working with that were
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: so mad at jfk oh. Oh, yes, somebody did and
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: who did that? Who you ran that internal investigation? Mister
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 3: Seforza ran that internal investigation and collected all the information
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 3: and it then what vanished, right, okay, which is a
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 3: real handed way to get rid of the evidence. It's
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 3: sort of like I'm going to find anybody who says
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 3: the wrong thing, and I'm sure just like, uh oh,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 3: you're either going to get a caution or you know
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: there's going to be a vacancy at your desk.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, for sure. All right, let's go back to
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 4: your power point here hopefully it is up on the
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 4: screen traces of operational use, and talk a little a
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: little bit about the Black Propaganda Project, which I know
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 4: when you asked me yesterday, Larry, if you could find anything,
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 4: let me know. I knew that you had searched really
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 4: hard at that I would not find.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: Anything, David, certainly, but that to me, that's a big hole.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 3: It's a big hole. How can we know about individual
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 3: boat missions and raids and who was on them, and
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 3: teams going into Cuba. How can we know about all
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 3: of that and know nothing about this and know nothing
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 3: about an operation that was so significant that they actually
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 3: called the FBI and for help and actually collect So
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: to me, this is a it's it's a big deal
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 3: that we don't know about that that nobody has located
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: those Why wouldn't we have those documents? Something something, something
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: was launched.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 5: We know that, so I earned.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's my suspicion. Yes, But to me, this
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 3: is this is a real clue, and this is new
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 3: and and we didn't now we know that. I think
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: what we didn't know before. If you'd seen this document
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 3: and you see Tilton is is asking, you know, Tilton's
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: talking about a new propaganda operation.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 4: If you had the ninth thirteen sixty theory document, okay.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 3: If you just saw that and you didn't have this
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 3: backstory about Tilt Tilton already having been in communications with
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 3: the FBI about Vincenti about providing correspondence, if you didn't
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: already knew know that Tilton was very much aware of
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: Lee Harvey Oswald and what he'd been doing with the
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 3: dri by itself. It's just you know, a document with
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: all all this other backstory. But when you know Tilton
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 3: is is absolutely very much aware of Lee Harvey Oswald,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 3: the FPCC connection, the DRE connection, then it becomes a
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 3: lot more significant. David, Oh, got it.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 5: Let me ask you a question, guys. So you know,
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 5: I was and looking at this stuff for the past
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 5: couple of months and really filling myself trying to fill
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 5: myself in on the DRE and what they were doing
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 5: in New Orleans. You know, it comes to find out,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 5: you know, okay, well, Carlos Brignier is the only DRI
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 5: delegate in New Orleans, right, And they had these guys
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 5: who were delegates all over the country in major cities
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 5: and even non major cities as well. They were not
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 5: paid by the DRE proper, you know, the headquarters in
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 5: Miami or whatever. They weren't paid, so they had to
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 5: raise their own money or whatever. So when it comes
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 5: to the flow of information, how important do you think
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 5: Brignia was as far as I mean, I know he
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 5: put out his press relief as he as he wrote it, right,
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 5: you know, shortly after his little uh friend went down
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 5: and Oswald was arrested and all that he put out
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 5: his little press release, But who did he release it to? Uh,
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 5: you know, because we don't know that that that that
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 5: information was ever sent back to the d r E
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 5: headquarters at that time, that early and then went up
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 5: the chain of command, you know, or or were these
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 5: guys like you say, David, you know our Nesto Rodriguez,
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 5: Emilio Rodriguez, these guys that are ci legit were they
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 5: giving information above like jam waves head about Oswald?
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 6: See, I think Jeff Morley interviewed uh Louis Fernandez, Rocca
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 6: and uh, those guys, and they admitted that report they
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 6: knew all about Oswald. And they actually shared some of
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 6: the information about Oswald with Alpha sixties six and a
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 6: couple of you know, the m RP and some other groups,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 6: and so that they all knew about Oswald as far
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 6: as in August. I wish I could find Jeff's ounticle again, but.
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 5: There's a documentation though, right We're like, we don't have
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 5: any paperwork about it being that early out of CIA.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 6: As far as it made me, joean ed you know
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 6: what I mean? Yeah, well they Fernandez it was you
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 6: know a m hint fifty three He was the main
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 6: contact with Joe and eds. He said, I told Howard
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 6: about this, Howard being Joe and Edies. So he admitted
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 6: telling Howard this is from two thousand and seven, I
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 6: think the article he wrote. But is there any paperwork
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 6: about that?
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 4: No? Right, because Rocca and Slovak we're really the only
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 4: people to have contact with Howard Joan Ed's right, mostly yes.
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 3: But the problem is we don't, no, because we don't
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: have any documents. What we should have is certainly given
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: that Joannides had been specifically assigned by you know, to
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 3: keep control of the d are you know, he took
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 3: over from previous case officers Morales Kroozer, and so he's
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 3: he's actually has been was praised in the records for
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 3: you know, his work with them and keeping in touch
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: with them, and you know so, but we don't have
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: any of his reports, and we should have. There should
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 3: be case officer files on his meetings with them, because
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 3: you all have seen CIA documents that are kind of
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 3: like minutia. I talked to this Cuban and he told
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 3: me this and this room is so there should be
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 3: a host of those every month when he talked to them.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 3: He should record what they told. We have no reports
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 3: from him, so not because.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 4: They were soft files like operational files that didn't go
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 4: through the usual system CIA.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 6: No, Well, Shacklee would have known about those for sure,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 6: and Bob Moore for sure. Moraley's would have got some too,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 6: and we know that.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 3: We know that Shackleie was getting stuff from him because
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 3: Shackley was. Also we have Shackley's documents on the DRE
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 3: and the DRE pitching the right idea for a new
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 3: arm group, so we know Shackley is getting information from
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 3: Joann Edes. That's the only way he can get it.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 3: We know Shackley is talking and writing about dr we
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 3: don't see anything in between. So it's a whole, you know.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 3: Why Why is it a whole? What's wrong? Why would
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 3: that be? So? Yes, Shackley knew he was getting information
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: from Joann Ed's and from till but it's down at Miami,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: it's on and all of the DRES files are gone. Okay,
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 3: So you're right, Rob, I would love to see that
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 3: and to confirm it. I think that, But I think
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 3: you brought up a big point. First of all, Miami,
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 3: if Miami was not if joeann Edes bailed if he
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 3: wasn't doing this job and sharing information from rope you know. Okay,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 3: they were hearing the same thing from the FBI. Okay,
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 3: so there's no doubt about that feed. But I think,
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: as you say, it was only bring year in New Orleans.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 3: Now there were also there's this old group that are
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 3: CI informants. They absolutely did not report on Oswald. There's
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: a hole there. Okay, the domestic ops guys in Oswald,
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 3: and there were American assets, and we were right about
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 3: some of them that could have been you know, after
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 3: Oswald was in the news and and the media that
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 3: to extending was you would expect these guys to have
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 3: reported back. It's not there. There's nothing from them. So
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: everything is gone that you would expect, even from the
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 3: domestic side, from not just the Cubans but Americans who
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 3: are sources. But our suspicion is, and this gets into
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: the second part, which would take another five hours, is
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 3: essentially the old school guys chose not to tell the FBI,
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 3: told not to tell the CIA because they had their
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 3: own interest in Lee Harvey Oswald. People like you know,
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 3: people that were in touch with the old Guard in Miami.
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 3: There's one common exus between all of this, by the way,
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 3: that we picked up on that I have been entirely
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 3: missing before we went this route. There's one one person
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 3: who's in tight with all these old school guys in
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 3: New Orleans and also went tight with the guys who
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 3: have been kept trying to kill Fidel Castro for three years.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 3: What's the name of that guy who happens to be
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 3: the best friend of Sylvia Odio's uncle who comes to
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: visit him in November. What's the name of the guy?
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: David got it?
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 6: Tony Verona, Roselli's best.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 3: Friend, Rosselli's best friend, Harvey's buddy.
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 6: Harvey's buddy, and Sylvia Odio's uncle's buddy.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 6: Tony Verona stays with Augustine Guitant in November of sixty three,
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 6: you know, to help raise funds for the CRC. He
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 6: was running the CRC at that point. Who was the delegate,
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 6: Frank Bartez, who was the assistant delegate. Augustine Guitant was
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 6: the assistant delegate for the CRC back then. Who else
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 6: was in the CRC Anesto Rodriguez his father, that's Riga senior.
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: So it's a cr C link, not the DR link.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 6: All right, arrestless Pena who Oswald supposedly went to his bar.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 6: He was with the CRC. Kyle spring Gear was a
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 6: member of the CRC before he left to join the DR.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 6: A lot of people don't know that he was a
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 6: member of the CRC with all these guys.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 5: They were all friends and Sergey are Conscious Smith as well.
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 3: Why was Verona in charge of the CRC because the
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 3: CRC was so hostile and aggressive George Jfk that their
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 3: president had resigned and just kind of dumped the whole
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 3: organization onto Verona. And it's the people in the CRC
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 3: who were talking about, uh you know, we we've heard
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 3: the DR talking about getting rid of Jfk. The cr
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 3: cr C guys are just as adamant about this. So
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 3: Verona turns out to be a a really interesting link
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 3: to the other side of this story.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean he went and he was given a
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 6: speech to help raise money in New Orleans. Was a
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 6: November fifteenth, sixty three. He's given a speech like we
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 6: need money, guys, you know.
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 3: And now he hasn't been there for six months, you understand,
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 3: but he just happened to pick that week.
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 6: He's gonna go visit his son in Houston, Texas.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: He's on the way.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the things we've been exploring Rob and
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 4: I and I guess the past six months is how
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 4: these different Cuban groups had different objectives, right, but they
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 4: also a lot of overlap with members and varying degrees
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 4: of motivation, right, And and CIA at this point is
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 4: trying to stop all of them. Yeah, yes, am I
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 4: wrong about that?
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 3: Every they're trying to stop. The funny thing is they're
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 3: trying to stop everybody except the ones they're not trying
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 3: to stop, you know. Like I in the book, I
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 3: think I call them insiders and outsiders. All the guys
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 3: that are inside with am world, Our Temy and his
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 3: buddies know there's something serious that actually is going to happen.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 3: Although they're told to tell a cover story. The cover
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 3: story our Temmy is using in his recruiting is Kennedy
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 3: has abandoned us. We're on our own, We're gonna go
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 3: do it ourselves.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 3: So that's an but he knows better than that. That's
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 3: just his cover story. But there are a lot of
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: Cubans that are hearing hate speech against JFK even from
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 3: the insiders, and the outsiders assume the Kennedys have given
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 3: up totally, So they're really just a handful of people
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 3: that in the Cuban community that don't think JFK is
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 3: given up on them. The rest of them consider him
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 3: a trader.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, hm, I love it.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: So there you go. So if you guys could just
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 3: hunt up Tilton's like propaganda project, give us the cript,
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 3: we could really move forward with this. Uh, volunteers are solicited.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 6: You hear that chat?
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you got a lot of smart people in the chat, and.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 3: There something might be. It's just like this one document
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 3: from Tilton was out there, but we didn't know what
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 3: the implications of it. There may be other documents out
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 3: there like that that we didn't understand the implications of.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 5: And rumor has it representative Luna listens to the show?
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 5: So all right, whoa at least my fantasy she does.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think what did X tell us that that?
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 4: When we asked, like groc, who was the most so
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 4: popular person who listened to our show, it's a Luna.
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 4: Well happened?
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 5: If you could if you could ask Luna for some documents,
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 5: what would you ask for.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I had a thank you Rob, Like Jeff, if.
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 5: You could ask for documents and get whatever you wanted,
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 5: What are you asking for?
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 4: If you're whispering in her ear? What are your biggest objectives?
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 3: Well, we've already sent We've sent a couple of things
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 3: her way already. Obviously one would be Tilton's operational files,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 3: you know, if that would be one. The other one
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 3: we said there was, well, the c I investigation file
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 3: of the Cubans, you know, the the the thing Seporza
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 3: ordered that was supposed to be turned into a report
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 3: that never happened, you know, so looking for that one.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: Those were those were two. But yeah, Tilton's operational files absolutely,
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 3: mm hmm me.
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 6: I'd like to see what Bartes told the HSCA. There's
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 6: a tape recording of it, but I haven't seen there.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 6: I don't think they transcribed it at all, but there's
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 6: supposed to be a recording of it at the archives,
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 6: so that I would love to see what he had
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 6: to say.
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: You know, the HSBA asked for that. What was in
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: that pouch that Phillip's got in the State Department said
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 3: they didn't know. Only the CIA knows, So maybe ask
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 3: what was in the pouch.
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 6: I would love to see Bob Morris to owe file,
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 6: I mean, or is personnel file.
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 4: That Robert Moore someone that is very suspicious that isn't
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 4: talked about enough. So, you know, last question, maybe where
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 4: do we go from here? We have some momentum with
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 4: the Executive Order and Luna. I guess they're writing their
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: final report. I think it's going to be something like
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 4: this lie to everyone. It's like shocker, you know, you
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 4: know what I mean? And I ended my Lancer panel
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 4: on this. And how about we clean up the archives?
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 4: How about we you know, get everything digitized? You know,
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 4: we know, you know, people like Andrew Eiler have have
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 4: found boxes that were mislabeled by accident, Like how many
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 4: more are mislabeled or unlabeled?
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: And how do we do that?
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 4: And and I just want to get both your thoughts
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 4: on on like what you think we can do before
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 4: the re election campaign starts pretty soon right going into
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 4: the midterms. What can we do to keep this momentum up?
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 6: In your opinion, you got to put somebody in charge
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 6: of the archives that knows what they're doing and actually
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 6: could get people to do their jobs there You know,
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 6: as simple as that, because they're not doing their jobs.
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 5: You know, they haven't been for a long time.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I mean I go back quite a
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 6: ways where back in the nineties, after you know, they
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 6: said everybody gets one hundred free pages. You write in
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 6: and tell them the riff numbers you want and they
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 6: would send it to you. I mean I got tons
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 6: of them, all my relatives. You should see my mother
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 6: in law. Everybody's getting one hundred pages free. Everybody's co workers,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 6: everybody's bringing me an envelopes here, Dave, here's your envelopes.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 6: You know, they were actually very responsive back then. I
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 6: mean within a couple of weeks, I could have Laurence Hall's,
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 6: you know, complete testimony and Lawrence Howard's complete testimony. You know,
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 6: so nobody had seen those back then, but you know,
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 6: able to get them like pretty much right away, you know, so,
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 6: I mean, again, very responsive. If they did that now, boy,
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 6: you know, poor Rex would be so busy at Mary Ferrell,
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 6: just skinning doctor.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 3: I think what you'd really have to do is you
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 3: have to isolate the problem. I mean, it's one thing
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 3: to say that they need to run the way they
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 3: should run, okay, which would be good in a lot
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: of areas, but I would say, with what we know now,
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 3: you need to send somebody. You need to go to
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: the CIA, and the CIA needs to Let's assume the
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 3: CIA is agreeable to play ball, okay at this point
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 3: in time, and give Luna what she asked for, and
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 3: you need to say we need everything from Miami Station
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 3: and for the period of nineteen sixty three. You guys
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 3: need to if you haven't released it, you need to
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 3: release it without redactions. And what we need to do
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 3: is have the archives put it all in one room,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 3: and we need to send somebody in there with permission
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 3: to go through it, who knows what they're looking for,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 3: because that's the only way we're going to move forward.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 3: You'd have to treat it like a cold case, a
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 3: coal criminal case, where all the documents are gathered together
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 3: in one place by people that know what they're looking for.
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 3: If you just throw them into the archives, we're done
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 3: because the people that you know, it's just not going
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 3: to work that way. The people that know what they're
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 3: looking for. It's just like this one document for tilten.
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 3: It's not like it hasn't been there, but it means nothing.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 3: If you don't have the context, So I would say
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 3: what what Luna could do. Her charter for the committee
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 3: is oversight right, oversight on the documents, overside on the process.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 3: That includes handling the documents and then making them available
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 3: to the public. But it's just not the whole public.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 3: You've got to make them physically available to the part
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 3: of the public that knows what to do with them.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 3: You don't have to open a new investigation. Even if
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 3: you just did that much, it's almost like we could
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 3: run with it. If if rex and David and Stu
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 3: Wexler went there with all of those boxes, you know,
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 3: and a couple of other names, it's like, here's a
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 3: working group milk the records. Yeah, we got them. Nobody's
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 3: concealing anything anymore. You guys have got six months and
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 3: ten people to clear the bases. Is it anything left
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 3: in there that's worthwhile? And then we're just going to
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 3: set them all aside. Okay, but I think you have
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 3: to do that to make any progress. Just making them
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 3: all available in the standard process, it's not going to
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 3: solve the case for us. It's not gonna I'm not
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 3: seeing when we can solve the case. But it's not
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 3: going to answer the questions. The real questions that are
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 3: outstanding is not that did the CIA obfuscate and lie?
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 3: We know that happened, Yes, The question is why did
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 3: they obfuscate and lie when ostensibly they were doing the
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 3: right thing. We haven't seen any document yet, and once
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 3: we just talked about that, they shouldn't have had the information.
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 3: You know, their jobs. They could have been using Oswald
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 3: in a sanction propaganda project, and that's okay, But then
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 3: why would you have to lie about it just to say,
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 3: you know, yeah, so, But you want to distance yourself
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 3: because I want to be at a distance honestly, because
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 3: I don't want you to ask any other questions about
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 3: guys in my group that maybe I don't know about
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 3: and I suspect and I'm you know, let's face it, uh,
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 3: they we know from people that talk. People in Miami
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 3: knew that people in Miami had done shit. They knew it.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 3: That about it. They knew it. They knew there, they
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 3: knew there was something wrong, and they all suspected something.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 3: You just need to accept that they they suspected something.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 3: And that's why they distanced themselves because the ones that
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 3: were really at this heart it's hard to pick the
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 3: word to use. They didn't want to see the agency destroyed. Yeah,
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 3: and it probably would have been should have been whatever?
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: Almost well.
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, see a lot of these guys work together. Two
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 6: in the early Cuba project, you know, the Bay of
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 6: Pigs and before the Bay of Pigs. And I've heard
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 6: it described the best as one of the testimonies. I
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 6: think it's Sam Halper. He said, we're a band of brothers.
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 6: We do anything for each other. You know, if somebody's
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 6: sick or you know, it's having problems, we cover for them.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 6: You know, if the having problems, will bring them from
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 6: wherever they are to headquarters for a while undercover, you know,
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 6: just to protect them. And that's what happened. These guys
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 6: were band of brothers. They all work together very closely
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 6: into some harsh conditions, and they were not going to
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 6: throw each other under the bus.
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 3: And we saw that with the Harvey files. When Luna
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 3: got that, that's one thing we've seen. They knew he
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 3: was drunk, they knew he's unreliable. They brought it back
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 3: and gave him a job so he could get treatment. Yep,
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 3: you know they did. You know, they did take care
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 3: of each other and and maybe they suspected he had
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 3: done bad things. But you know that's the way it goes.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a lot of them, did you know, just
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 4: like you know at w Phillips created that that group
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 4: for intelligence officers. Yeah, the union almost whatever, it's called
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 4: f I FO or something.
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 6: Who's members of it? Will Patacky and a A Patacky.
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 6: I was looking at the group listing there. Yeah, you'd
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 6: be surprised that the name's then.
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Philip Phillips was way. The funny thing is Phillips
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 3: is a writer. He's an author. He's writing a bunch
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 3: of books. Okay, he does plays. He had lots of careers.
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 3: He could do TV, he could do all of those things.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 3: But he took time out of his busy day to
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 3: set up the Association of Intelligence Officers to protect themselves
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 3: from investigations. I mean, that's their charter. We're going to
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 3: protect ourselves. Like, Okay, David, what are you really concerned
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 3: about protecting.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 5: Dirty, dirty secrets?
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 4: That is for sure, and that is all I have
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 4: if you have any anything else, Rob, I think we
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 4: are on the two hour mark and one minute, and
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 4: of course we want to thank David and Larry for
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 4: their time on this Friday evening, We've had sixty plus
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 4: people fifty now in the chat and I know you
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 4: guys are on at least my mount rushmore of researchers
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 4: and really respect what you're doing. And that's not an
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 4: exaggeration at all.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 3: Well maybe maybe next April or something we can come
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 3: back and start with Verona and go down that road.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 5: Love it definitely, Yeah, hell yeah, let's do it all right, guys,
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 5: We appreciate you coming on again. The links to the
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 5: book are in the description. The link to pre order
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 5: the new updated version of the book is in the description,
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 5: as well as a link to Larry's blog, which is
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 5: chock full of information. It'll keep you busy for a
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 5: long time. So thank you guys, Thank you David for
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 5: finally getting on here with us. Thank you Larry again.
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 5: Always a pleasure, my friend to have you here. And
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 5: you guys are welcome back anytime. And as per the usual, uh,
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 5: we're gonna have Dean Andrews dances about it here.
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 3: New or you forget to send me that song, Rob
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 3: God to have that song.
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 5: Get me going, and I will.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 4: I'll send you his.
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 5: Repertoire.
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 3: That's hysterical happy holidays, thanks for.
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 6: Having a sign guys.
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 5: Holidays and uh yeah, we'll see you guys next year.
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 5: Thank you again.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: It's pleasure.
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 5: Dino. Get your fat ass in here and sing us
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 5: out of here. Buddy, I gotta see this.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 7: He did not talk for the record, but he said,
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 7: come to Bourbon Street and I'll show you what I
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 7: think of the case.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 5: Look, David Serry up there in the corner behind the young.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 3: Guy and Ruby staying Hi.
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 4: Kilarie and David.
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 7: The greatest lies are told in the name of truth,
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 7: the greatest crimes are committed in the name of justice.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 7: The quotation is Jim Garrison's. It could be used for
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 7: him or against him.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 6: With good night.