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Postponed Polygamy within Mormonism with Carol Lynn Pearson revisited · The Observatory | Discovery of Consciousness & Awareness

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Observatory Podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: With your hosts Scott and Loray Wright.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Join us each week as we explore living life from
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the inside out. Welcome back to the Observatory Podcast today.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: We are so excited to have back with us once again,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Carol Lynn Pearson. We were able to go visit her
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: in her home in northern California and sit with her
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  Speaker 1: and have some beautiful, wonderful, deep conversations about mostly about
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: her book The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy she wrote a
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: few years back, talking about the impact that polygamy has
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: had on people living in the Mormon faith for years
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: and years and years and still continues today. It's really
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: a good conversation. So sit back and relax and enjoy
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: our conversation with Carol Lynn Pearson. Also, we would really
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: appreciate it if you would take the time to share
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: our podcast with those who you might feel could benefit
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: from it. Share it, like it, distribute it, put it
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: on your social media, anything you can to get this
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: message that we're trying to share a message of unity,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: of oneness. There's no judgment in any of this these
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: conversations that we have, so please share it and allow
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: us to get our voices out there to help others.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, and we will be right
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: back with Carol Lynn Pearson. Welcome back to the Observatory podcast.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Today we have a special guest has returned to be
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: with us. Carol Lynn Pearson, welcome back.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Beds looking forward to.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: This and this time. We were on a road trip
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: and we've taken the podcast on the road, brought all
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: of our equipment with us and we're sitting here in
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: her living room and we're so grateful to be here.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: It's the light. I'm grateful to have you here. And
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: we have a little fire going over here Chiley, California today,
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: So we're having a good time already. It's going to
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: get better and better.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Exactly a room full of plants, which you know, that's
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: my thing. I love the plants. They're beautiful, excellent. Yeah, well,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: we're glad to have you back. We're here to have
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: a conversation again. The last time we were together, we at
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: the end of the podcast, we determined we were going
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: to do this again and what we wanted to do
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: was have a little bit of time to read your book.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: We discussed it then and the full title of the
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: book is the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy and then subtitle
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Haunting the Hearts and Heaven, Hearts and Heaven of Mormon
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Women and Men. And this is a book that you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: wrote in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen timeframe, I think, right.
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  Speaker 2: And it was really powerful to read. I mean, since
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: both of us come from polygamy families.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: We do.
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  Speaker 2: Our great grandfathers both had multiple wives, and it was
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: fascinating for me to read first and hear so much
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: of what other women have shared and families have shared,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: but also to learn of how close your roots are
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: to ours in the Bear Lake Valley. And there was
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: some wonderful things we found out, one being the address
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: that Brighamy Young gave at the Paris Tabernacle. And so
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: this is going to be fun to have this kind
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: of discovery conversation and see where we go with all this.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm curious to know too, after reading or after
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: writing it in twenty sixteen, if your views have changed
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: or how they've continued to evolve from the time you've
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: written the book.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, my views about this subject have not changed except
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  Speaker 3: deepened in a very clear position that this is such
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: a devastatingly harmful and wrong doctrine that it really needs
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: to go. It benefits no one, well excuse me, in
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: a perverted way. It benefits the men who depend on
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: it for accumulating both wives that they are now sealed to,
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  Speaker 3: maybe even a third wife that they are sealed to,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: to have them as their wives in heaven. But for
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: the rest of us, for women and for a lot
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  Speaker 3: of men, this doctrine policy practice is indefensible.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good of us probably to clarify
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  Speaker 1: that the Mormon Church no longer practices it as far
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  Speaker 1: as having multiple wives. And this has been going on
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  Speaker 1: that way for a number of years, back from the
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  Speaker 1: late eighteen.
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  Speaker 3: Hundreds and the current existence.
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  Speaker 1: In the existence. However, if a man is married and
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: his wife passes away or whatever, and he decides to
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: marry again, that that polygamy is viewed in the church
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  Speaker 1: as still valid, still continuing. When he marries the second wife,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: they're going to be, in the words of the Church,
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  Speaker 1: sealed together, not only in this world but in the next.
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  Speaker 1: And that causes a lot of trauma for people that
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: are currently in the church that that exists. And you
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: had numerous people and testimonials of people that have talked
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: about that and their own personal experience such as such
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  Speaker 1: a myriad of different ways that has shown up and
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: traumatized people in their lives. Yeah, when we're not here
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  Speaker 1: to really bash the Mormon Church as much as that
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  Speaker 1: particular doctrine right is one that is really out of
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  Speaker 1: alignment with.
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  Speaker 3: What there is there is indeed from my point of
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  Speaker 3: view in my long experience, and I am still active
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  Speaker 3: in my ward, but the church that I know in general,
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  Speaker 3: you know that the church that I live in, especially
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: down here at the bottom in the ward, in the stake,
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: is such a really beneficial experience, and the community is
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: so devoted and such excellent human beings that they they
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  Speaker 3: we deserve better than to be haunted by this indefensible
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: doctrine right.
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  Speaker 2: And it raises so many questions about, you know, or
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: fear that people. It creates fear about people like what
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  Speaker 2: will happen if I do die and my husband chooses
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  Speaker 2: to marry someone else for women or vice versa, and
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  Speaker 2: then also for children, like how how will that change
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: our lives or our relationships? And so all of that
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  Speaker 2: fear becomes, like you said, it really doesn't serve any
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: purpose whatsoever.
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  Speaker 3: No, presents a tremendous amount of confusion.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, it's been a long time that
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: the Church has has said, you know, we no longer
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: practice polygamy. In the physical world where we live, men
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: can't have multiple wives, et cetera, et cetera. However, like
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: we were saying, there is this underlying belief that it does.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: It is still a doctor and we just don't practice
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: it because we know that if we do, it's going
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: to be a problem legally, the government's going to come
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  Speaker 1: down on us, et cetera, et cetera, which is what
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: happened back in those days, and we all come from
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: that experience in.
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  Speaker 3: Cure and polygamy delayed is still a polygamy. Yes, So
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: it is really love that it is really not correct
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  Speaker 3: for the church to say we no longer practice polygamy.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: We delay polygamy.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: We delay it so until it's time for it to
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  Speaker 1: come back again. Is the kind of the underlying message
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  Speaker 1: that that happened, of.
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  Speaker 3: Course, well, delayed until we're in this spirit world where
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: it will flourish.
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  Speaker 1: Well, what would happen possibly if if the legal system
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: did say it was okay, would we go back and
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: practice it in the physical world.
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  Speaker 3: I wonder, I sure don't know that, but that's never
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: going to happen to have that become a legal option.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, I think it's Your book was so beautifully
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: done and just expressed so many stories, and it really
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: highlighted the anxiety and stress that people go through. And
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  Speaker 2: I loved how you just kept reiterating that through all
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  Speaker 2: of this, the better union for men and women is
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: to come to a place of partnership and to be
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: in partnership together and to really contribute to each other's
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  Speaker 2: wholeness and wellness, both spiritually and mentally and emotionally and physically.
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  Speaker 2: And so that was the takeaway that I had. And
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: as we've had conversations with some family members and friends
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  Speaker 2: that are LDS and know about polygamy, it was interesting
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  Speaker 2: how there's a myriad of ways people justify it, and
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: they add to their story things like, well, I'll get
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: to choose in heaven if my husband can have a
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  Speaker 2: second wife. And I'm like, is that true? Is that
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  Speaker 2: part of the doctrine that you get to that you
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: get to trump that choice that you can opt out
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  Speaker 2: in heaven. But I think it's just ways people have
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  Speaker 2: created that safety within themselves to coexist with what is uncomfortable.
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  Speaker 1: Of course, so I think before we go too far
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  Speaker 1: and get too far into it. We did talk about
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  Speaker 1: this a little bit in the last episode, and people
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: can go back and refer that. But you know, if
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: someone's showing up here doesn't know anything about Mormonism, doesn't
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  Speaker 1: know anything really about polygamy and the connection there, would
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: you mind speaking to it just a little bit, giving
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  Speaker 1: some kind of context for people to have an idea
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  Speaker 1: what we're really even going to be discussing here today.
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  Speaker 3: Sure well. Plural marriage was something that was first established
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  Speaker 3: in the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter to Saints
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  Speaker 3: by the founding prophet Joseph Smith way back in the
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  Speaker 3: first part of the eighteen hundreds and when he and
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: there's lots of information these days about exactly how that
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: happened and the stories of the wives that he took
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  Speaker 3: tremendous amount of research that's gone into all that, But
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: somehow he determined that he was being called to bring
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  Speaker 3: back the old Old Testament version of marriage that was
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  Speaker 3: called plural marriage or spiritual wifery or all the confusing
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  Speaker 3: words that came around in trying to make sense of that,
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  Speaker 3: and he ultimately did have sealed to him probably up
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  Speaker 3: to forty women. Not all of them may have been
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  Speaker 3: wives in actual physical proximity and with sexual encounters, but
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  Speaker 3: many of them were, that is firmed. And so as
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  Speaker 3: we know, Joseph Myth was killed in eighteen forty four
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: and the Saints were really the Latter Day Saints were
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: in disarray, and Brigham Young took the headship, and as
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  Speaker 3: most people know if they know Western history, the Mormons
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: set out from Nauvoo, Illinois to settle in a place
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: where they could safely practice their religion, and so they
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  Speaker 3: ended up in the Salt Lake Valley under Brigham Young,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: and Brigham Young and a number of the high ranking
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: men in the church when Joseph was still alive, did
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: take the practice of pollingha mean. Joseph assured them that
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  Speaker 3: this was essential for being able to enter into the
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: highest degree of the celestial Kingdom in the next life
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: heaven yep. And so when they were safely established in
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  Speaker 3: Salt Lake City, this practice became no longer hidden from
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: the world or hidden from even members of some members
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: of the church, but it was brought out into the
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: open and it was celebrated, and Brigham Young, in fact,
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  Speaker 3: as we've sort of referenced here, taught people that that
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: it was essential that they live in this covenant called
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: the plurality of wives in order to be really capable
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: in the next life, the eternity that we're moving into,
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: to to move forward and multiply and establish their own worlds.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: Even that's you know, a concept that's sort of been
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  Speaker 3: put aside now of becoming you know, a god over
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: your own world. But there was the firm conviction that
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: a man who refused to take a second wife or
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: a third or whatever was going to have lesser glory
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: in the next life. In fact, as long as we've
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: brought that up, what you were mentioning a little bit
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: ago was bringing Young saying specifically at a conference up
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: in Paris, Idaho, that to the men who are reluctant
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: to take a second wife, if you do not, you
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: will find when you get to heaven that you will
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  Speaker 3: have not only that you will have not even the
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: one wife that you first took, you'll be without any
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: wife at all. Yes, So it was it was that strong.
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  Speaker 3: That's a huge fear of a of a doctrine and
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: of an expectation, and almost all of the male leadership
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: in Salt Lake City and the other areas that Brigham
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Young established, nearly all the leaders were polygamists. Very few
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: were able to maintain having a high position and not
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: taking a second wife.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: It was fascinating as we read the story, actually just
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: moving to both of us, because that talk that Brigham
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Young gave in the Paris Tabernacle in Bare Lake, Idaho
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: is where our ancestors are from. It's where polygamy in
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: both of our families occurred. And for myself, my great
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: grandfather's name was Amos Wright, and he came from also
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a polygamist father who had I believe it was five wives.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Jonathan Culkin's right. He came from Navu, Illinois, across the plains.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Amos was ten years old walking across and as a pioneer.
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  Speaker 1: Then after that talk that Brigham Young came to Paris,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: and did he married his second wife? I'm just looking
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: at it here in eighteen eighty five, that definitely would
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: have been after that talk that Brigham Young gave, because
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: I don't even remember how long he was alive after
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: he came here, but it would have been after that, yes,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: And I would imagine that he would have participated in
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: that in some way, because if he was in the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Bear Lake Valley. My great grandfather came to the Bear
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Lake Valley in eighteen sixty three. Yeah, so from eighteen
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: sixty three and then so it was twenty two years
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: later that he then married his second wife, and he
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: would have been there for that talk without a doubt
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: if Brigham Young the prophet came to speak in.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, and my great grandfather certainly was there too, and
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: that was the I'm certain that was the impetus that
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: he had not until that point taken a second wife,
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: and after that he did.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: With my great grandfather, there had also been some trauma
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: between him and his father because he was sent away.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Amos the younger, his son, was sent away on a mission,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: and when he came back, his father had wed this
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: girl that he had an eye for, and his father
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: knew he had an eye for this girl, and his
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: father had taken her as a wife when he got back,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: and from that point on, of course, their relationship was
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: a little strained. At that point, well.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: There is so much underlying confusion and pain and many
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: things just distress over this. There's I truly do not
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: see one way to defend it, not one now.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: And you had done a lot of research, because we
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: learned in the book that you had been asked to
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: write a script for a movie for a movie about
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Joseph Smith and his life, and so you had done
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of research into many aspects of Joseph's life
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: and knew kind of how this all came about. So
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: as you look at that historical aspect, did it change
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: from the time what Joseph perceived it to be to
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: what Brigham Young then had it continue to flourish and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: be once they got to Utah? Or was it the same?
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I think essentially it was the same in that it
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: was just a spiritual requirement for true progress. And I'm
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: sure that Brigham Young really hammered it down much more
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: than Joseph did, because Brigham could do it in the open.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: A little more free out here.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, And I wish I could read each
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: of their minds to see precisely sure how they were
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: perceiving this, But somehow the and the end result was
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: the same, of the the the desperate distress that so
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: many of these women were under when you know, when
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: when Joseph invited these young women to become his wives
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: and promised them that if if they did, that would
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: mean the eternal salvation in the Highest Kingdom for not
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: only them, but their entire family, ancestors, posterity, everything. So
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: there was there was all that enormous pressure going on
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: and and the the the major amount of that continued
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: through you know, through the entirety of the of the
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: saints being in Utah until, of course, what they they
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: abandoned polygamy in order to have Utah become a state
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: or else the government was about to to take away
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: all of their their properties, they had no recourse except
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: to abandon the immediate current practice of polygamy. Though it
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: went underground and there were there were a lot of
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: polygamous marriages that were sustained after after that that it
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: was supposedly given up.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting because when it when it was dissolved
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: or when they said no more polygamy, those that had
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: multiple wives obviously didn't abandon families and wife. They maintained it.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: But you're saying that they continued underground additional marriages and
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: polygamous practices.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the stories in your book that I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: thought was interesting from your own personal family. Your ancestor
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: and I can't remember the names, was living in Paris, Idaho,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I believe I remember right. James Oki, Yes, and he
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: was called to begin to practice polygamy and his wife
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: refused that. And so if you wouldn't mind just go
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: into that just a little bit, and how that showed
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: up in your own personal story in your own family.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Sure, And I wish I had all the details of this.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: I wish that my ancestress had written this challenge. Yeah,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: I wish I had pages that showed how my great
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: grandmother felt. All I know is that there was they
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: that couple, James and Mary Okie. They did not James
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: did not take a second wife for quite a long time.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: And I know it was uh it was she had
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: said to him. However it was said, I don't know,
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: but it was clear that her position was she would
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: not countenance that. But then when Brigham Young made this
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: strong statement publicly in Paris, in Paris, Idaho, and they
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: were up there, living right in the area, when Brigham
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Young made that statement that a man who refuses will
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: find himself with no wife in Heaven. I'm not sure
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: exactly how long after that they that he took a
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: second wife and his his first wife, my great grandmother,
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: left him. And I can't imagine the pain that was
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: going on throughout the entire family because of that. And
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: this would have played out differently in every different family,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: but there was always some measure of pain involved, I believe.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And just in the context of what was
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: happening in that period of time, the bear Lake Valley
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: is it was at that point pretty remote. I mean,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: it wasn't accessible. I don't think the railroad had come
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: into bear Lake, the bear Lake Valley, yet the Oregon
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Trail came right through bear Lake, so that that Oregon
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Trail comes through actually right through Montpellier, and and so
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: you know, people are passing through that area. But the
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: context of that being so remote and bringing me young
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: actually coming there to get there, he didn't come by train.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: He would have had have been on a horse or
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: a you know, a stagecoach or stage wagoner. However, it
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: was then to actually arrive in the valley, and so
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: the things that were being practiced in those outlying areas.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Things got kind of crazy. I mean, you couldn't just
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: pick up the phone and call call Salt Lake and say, hey,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: what should we do here? What should we do there?
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So in those outlying areas theme things seem to get
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: just a little bit skewed. And I think there's even
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: even the residual of that experience in those outlying areas,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: And the trauma that was experienced through the families continues.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: It continues in the culture of those families, in the
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: way they relate to women, in the way that women
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: and men relate to each other. That still, I can
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: only speak for my own family, but I that that
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I know is a factor in that. And I came
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: from a family of mostly brothers, come from a family
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: of eat and so my brothers and I we've had
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: lots of different kinds of discussions about this, and we
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: were all kind of morphed in our our beliefs, each
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: of us, some still in the church, some of us out.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: But you know, in looking at that experience, we don't
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: it still hasn't been reconciled right.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: And somehow or other we might have genetic memory of
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: trauma that our family way back and back and back
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: and back, has delivered to us.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say, might pardon me, I wouldn't even say,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: might have you think genetic memory? There's research done about
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: DNA that I think that absolutely is.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: And so you know that my body might even right
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: now be experiencing in the some cellular way the pain
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: that my ancestors experienced. Absolutely, and this would would not
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: have been the only terrible thing that happened in the
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: hundreds of years, back and back and back. But this
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: is the one that we're focusing on and that I
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: think continuous in our community, in our Mormon Latter day
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Saint community. And see, we're talking about the past right now,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: really essentially, and coming to terms with the past is
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: not really an easy thing, and it's not easy to
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: understand why people would insist that this is a godly command.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: But however, we deal with the past, that is the past.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: And my focus in this book and essentially in everything
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: that I really think about, is so what about now?
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: What about today? And besides the genetic harm that is
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: still carried in our cells from the trauma that went
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: through with this really horrendous practice, that's one thing. But
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: the thing that to me is absolutely so irresponsible and
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: so horrendous is the damage that is done today, right now, immediately,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: this moment, for so many latter day saint devoted women
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: and men who are told that this principle is an
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: eternal one and is in some way God's faith. I've
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: wrote highest form of marriage and that if you are
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: sufficiently righteous, this will be your lot in the eternities.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: When I was in high school, it was made very
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: clear to us through seminary teaching and all of that,
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: that if we were sufficiently righteous, we young women to
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: whom this might sound strange right now, but when we
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: are in the eternities, if we are sufficiently righteous, we
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: will yearn to live this practice. I remember the day
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: that my seminary teacher used that phrase. He was explaining
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: to us. This was the first day of school, and
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: I was a senior in high school, Brigham Young University
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: High School in Provo, Utah, and I remember sitting there.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: He was introducing himself and told about himself about his wife,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: and he said, and this is my second wife, and
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: I am sealed to this wife of mine. Now I'm
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: also healed to the wife that I had who died
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: some years ago. And I want you students to understand
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: that when I know, I know beyond any doubt that
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: when I receipt, when I get into this into the eternities,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I will claim both of these women as my wives.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: And that is the that is the marriage covenant that
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: the Lord has as our highest highest goal. And I
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: know this sounds strange, especially you young women, but as
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: you become less selfish, as you become more experienced in
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: spiritual matters, you will understand the beauty of this principle
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: and you will yearn to live it. That was just
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: emblazoned on my mind. I can remember where I was sitting,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: I can remember the suit he was wearing because it
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: shocked me, even though I knew something about polygamy, but
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: the way that was put shocked me. And I remember
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: walking home and that was the first time there was
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: a rift between me and God. Because of course, of
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: course my seminary teacher was a representative of God. He
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: would not tell me something that's not true. This is
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: what God wants from me. And so that was the
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: opening of my investigation and my personal heartbreak and ultimately
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: my rejection of this principle. Because I know, beyond a
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: shadow of a doubt, I bear you my witness that
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: this principle is nonsense. God was never behind Mormon polygamy,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: never behind Joseph Smith's decision to enter into this practice.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: God has nothing to do with the idea of eternal
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: plural marriage. I know that to be true. But because
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: I am free of any confusion about that does not
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: mean that other people still have their own concept of that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: And of course, who am I. I'm just one person.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Maybe maybe God really does have this bigger plan than
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I'm just I'm just way off on it. Believe me,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I would rather go to some other kingdom than the
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: one that is practicing polygamy. But what I have learned
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: over these many years is that so many, and I
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: think most and probably almost all of Mormon couples have distress.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: If they have been married in the temple, if they
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: really truly believe everything that they have been taught about
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: polygamy and their future that involves it, I think there
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: is distress. And that's why I wrote this book, and
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: just to introduce how how that happened. I I was
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: finally just you know, hearing you know, ever since I
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: became a writer, since I became sort of well known
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: in the Mormon community, hmm. I got letters from women,
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: especially letters and and then emails from women telling me
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: their sorrows, and this thing about polygamy was always high
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: on the list of things that was devastating to Mormon
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: women that that I heard from. And even though I
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: had personally come to peace with it, and come to
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: peace with a God that never commanded it, would never
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: countenance it. I realized that so many of my sisters
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: especially were in great pain about something that to me
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: was just absurd that they should have to carry it
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: within them, and so I just took it upon myself.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: I just felt called to do something about this, this
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: terrible thing, and so I jumped in it and did
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: research and sent out a survey to Mormon ex Mormon
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: active and not women and men asking for their views
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: on the disparity in the ceiling opportunities between men and
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: women and the idea of eternal polygamy. And to my surprise,
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: I was flooded. The first day we had to think
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: we had like seventeen hundred responses. That was just astonished me.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: And I'm told this is really like one of the
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: I guess the largest survey that was responded to of
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: all kinds of Mormon issues. But by the end of
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: the when we just said, I took it down. A
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: month later, we had over seven thousand responses. Oh and
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: there were a few. There were some that said, you know,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: just just don't worry about it. You know, God has
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: this all figured out. However it works out, it's just
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: going to be fine. But the huge, huge majority expressed
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: enormous pain. And I had an invitation for them to
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: tell their stories. There's a totally anonymous of course, and
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: so I spent a summer going reading through about two
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: or three thousand little stories, some some long, rambling stories,
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: some very short, just few sentences, and I just chose
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: those that expressed the ongoing themes that they were all
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: talking about. And so I created this book that was
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: my personal story, that was something of a general history
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: of Mormon polygamy, and that was essentially punctuated by these
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: current stories, these painful paragraphs of women and men throughout
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: the church today, whose lives have been damaged by this
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: horrendous teaching.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Whose lives have been damaged, and who ended marriages, you know,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: absolutely a marriage that could have well been right for them,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: but the circumstances just haunt I love to use the
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: word haunted me because it truly haunted them and put
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: such fear in their hearts. Like some of the letters
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: as we were reading them, they made me emotional because
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I could feel that underlying lack of safety in one
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: of the most important relationships in their lives, of course,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: and so they would opt to leave it and marry
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: someone who was not of the faith, just in order
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: to truly engage and give their heart to someone without
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: feeling like it would be shadowed.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: That's just unthinkable. Yeah, it was that. The devastation of
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: that is irredeemable.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: It really is, because it's a union that we're meant
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: to experience and have fullness of, and yet this prevents
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: that from it.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: And I still get emails from women several I'm remembering
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: right now that after they had read the book, such
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: a load was taken from them, and one I remember saying,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: when my husband finished reading The Ghost Eternal Polygamy, he
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: just wept because for the first time he understood what
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: I had felt all this time. And she went on
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: to say, as as so many have written to me, saying,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: I loved my husband with all my heart, but I
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: have been prevented from giving him my entire heart because
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: of my fear and my expectation that sometime in the
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: next world I will have to share with him, that
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: I would have to watch him experience with other women
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: what he and I are experiencing now. And she said,
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: I would give anything to have those years back where
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: I withheld my heart from my husband. See, that's that's horrendous,
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: that that's inexcusable. Yeah, and then you know, I looked
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: up whether or not that was legally what's what's the
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: word interference and what's the phrase of that emotional alienation
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: something like that. I actually look that up and this
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: would not legally count, but it is. It is inexcusable
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: emotional alienation between married partners in excuse me.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Well, and even for men too, you know, the fact
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: that they can't fully give to one because they have
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: to give a little bit effort to multiple ones, and
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: then just the trauma that it sets between the women.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: It just it really creates a very negative environment for
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: anyone that participates.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Of course, and one of my first chapters there is
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: going through I think about ten or twelve reasons that
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: people have brought come up with the reasons why polygamy existed,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: and none of them hold water. No of them hold water.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: You know, even this one that says we it will
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: to multiply and replenish the earth, we need that. No.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: In Salt Lake history, women who were not polygamousts actually
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: more more children than women who were polygamists. And the
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: whole thing is just absurd from top to bottom, except
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: when you say that God commanded it, and I have
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: authority to tell you God commanded it, and the people
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: who heartbreakingly believe that, Yeah, it's inexcusable. Yeah, there's no
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: excuse for it.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: You know, the Mormon churches is I wouldn't say unique,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: but maybe they go deeper with this concept than a
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: lot of different religions. And that is the concept of covenants, ordinances, obedience,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: and when we go down the road of those kinds
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: of things in a religious sense, it's when you talk
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: about covenants that are made for specific reasons, et cetera,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, that even today that what the
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: church is talking about, the leadership of the church is
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: talking about. They started this, I don't know how many
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: years ago, a few years back, talking about people being
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: on the covenant path, being on the covenant path right
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: is obedience to these laws like we're talking about right now.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: And my own experience I left the church many years ago.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: My own experience of coming out of the church, which
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: is kind of a much more of a tunnel vision
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: of living, was a wide open view of living life.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: And what I had a somewhat what I call an
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: awakening in two thousand and eight when I had that
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: experience was an experience of feeling and embodying and being
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: present with this love that was beyond words that I
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: could describe. There wasn't someone standing in front of me
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: saying I'm God and you need to worship me or
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: anything like that. It was a feeling and that feeling
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: of love that shared between men and women in relationship
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: and everything. It's so far beyond what that is that
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I described it as an energy or a presence or
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: a beingness that emanates from some source. What that source is,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I don't purport to know or try to tell someone
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: that they need to believe it to be anything in particular,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: but whatever that source is, that's where we all and
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: everything that exists in the universe came from. Sure, and
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: that is this emanating energy is love, and if we
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: try to say that we need to live up to
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: it and obey something in order to be worthy of
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: that or to be able to enter back into that,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I'd use my Idaho farm boy language to describe what
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: that is if I wanted to. But it's just not
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: true that love is unconditional, and in that moment, I
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: felt that it was unconditional. And if it is unconditional,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: what we do and how we obey and whether or
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: not we sin or we you know, do all of
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: these things is irrelevant to that love, because all those
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: are just lessons to help bring us to a space
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: of remembering who we are, and who we are is that. Yeah,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: within we're hearing this meat suit walking around trying to
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: navigate and find our way, and sometimes we get stuck
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: in these systems that limit our view. And that's what
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about in particular Mormonism, I'm talking about belief
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: systems in general. When we can open ourselves up to
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: that beingness of what unconditional love is, all that other
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: stuff just becomes ancillario. It's not important. But we do
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: have to approach each one of them individually, whatever they are.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: And this one in particular within the church especially, is
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: one that we've got to We've got to shine a
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: light on and look at in a particular way so
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: that we can have that realization that those covenants and
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: that obedience and all that stuff. It's I had a
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: whole farm about bory language. It rhymes with bs. It's
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: just not real that that love is what what's real.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: It's that is the essence of everything. It's in all
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: these plants in your room, and it's in you, and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: it's in me and in the entire universe. It's what
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: keeps all this thing in form we.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Have going, certainly, and God is love. Yes, that's that's
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: really the best phrase that I have come across that.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: And so wherever we find something that is truly resonates
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: with love, we know that we are that that is Godness.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: And wherever we come against into something that we know
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: we know does not feel loving, we know that God
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: is not there.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: And in the subject that we're talking about, I do
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: have enormous respect for the marriage relationship, and I think
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: the gift of love that is established in that union
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: is so profound and so demanding of protection that anything
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: that gets in the way of that relationship being as
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: fully protected and loving and nourished and not interfered with
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: by anybody on the outside, says I have authority to
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: tell you or to meddle around with your relationship. That's
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: meddling around with love, which is meddling around with Godness.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: And we just we have to get I think, more
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: simple and more clear about trusting our own feelings. You know, yes,
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: we All of the people whose stories I received that
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: I put in that book, they knew that something was wrong,
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: something was wrong. But God wants it that way. And
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: our little speck of Godness that is within us has
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: to resonate with the large God that we know as
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: the source of everything. Yes, and so somehow we have
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: to have the courage that when we when we are
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: told something, when we are commanded to do something that
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: does not feel wholly in line with the Godness that
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: we know that's a part of our own beingness, we
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: have to have the courage to reject that, because God
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: is love, and love will only make us feel comfortable
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: and and and unique. You know, we we the relationship
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: of a man and a woman should be unique without
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: anybody bothering it, nobody getting into the mix and saying, oh,
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: you need to do things this way. We we should
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: understand our our divine uniqueness, our divine personal authority, and
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: our personal authority is damaged with this concept called plural marriage.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of answered the question I was going
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: to ask you, is that if you were talking to
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: a group of young women today that are active in
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: the church centce you're still active in it, and you
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: you said you came to the conclusion where you know
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: that this is not from the God that you have
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: your relationship with. And having that conversation with a group
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: of young women, you just basically answered that saying, if
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: it doesn't resonate and speak to you about the godness
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: that you feel for you to rely more on that
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: personal relationship and your personal answer than the ant that
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: is inside you for you and your relationships, then for
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: the answer that is outside of.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: You, of course, And another great phrase, the Kingdom of
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: God is within, and this withinness that we are and
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: that sometimes we've been told to ignore that in favor
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: of somebody's authority on the outside. The Kingdom of God
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: is within. Yes, and we do have and we know
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: when we're going to when we're doing something that's hurtful
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: or something that it's stupid. We have an understanding of that,
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: so to rely on our own authority, knowing that when
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: we see our own actions bringing goodness and kindness and
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: love and all of the things that Jesus taught, we
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: know that we're behaving from the highest law, which is love,
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: which is God.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I love that you use the word unique because there's
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: eight billion uniquenesses walking around on this planet who are
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: a particle or a fractal of that thing that we
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: call God, and they're each having their own unique experience
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: as individuals. But I believe that it's extremely important for
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: us us We can't we can we are whole as
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: an individual. However, we can experience an expansive wholeness when
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: we come into relationship with someone else where they become
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: our mirror where there were open in every way physically, mentally, spiritually,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: emotionally with that other individual and they are with me
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: to that complete giving of all of those things together,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: so that we can mirror everything. And something like this,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: when there's a reservation, it's like I can't give my
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: whole heart because there's a possibility I might have to.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: In my belief system, share my husband with someone else later,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: and so I'm limiting my capacity to be in that wholeness.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: That's a violation.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: It's a violation and our experience. You know, we're not
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: perfect as a couple by any means. We but who is?
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: No one is. But we do have a mutual respect
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: for each other. Two be mirrors for each other even
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: when it's not easy, and to point things out for
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: each other even when it's not easy, because we know
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: that as individuals will grow that way, and especially as
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: a united partnership will grow together that way. Sure, yeah,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: it's important.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: So, Carolyn, do you have a favorite passage from the
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: book that you'd like to share.
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: I would like to share with you the last two
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: and a half pages of this book, the Ghost of
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: Eternal Polygamy. And see, I have had, in so many
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: ways a really strong and good experience with the LDS Church.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: I have contributed a lot. I have been blessed by
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: so many of the people in my ward and my
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: stake that I think it's worth saving. Yes, I do,
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: I really do it.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: It serves a lot of good purposes.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: It does.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: But one thing I was going to say earlier that
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: I do want to mention is that it's hard for
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: me to believe. I read this in a book here recently,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: that that God only favors zero point two percent of
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: the population of people that live.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Of course, you know, of course absurdity, that there are
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: absurdities galore, But nevertheless, this does happen to be an
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: institution that exists, and and there are good things that
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: are being done in this And you know, last night
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: I watched this tabernacle choir Christmas thing. I was just
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: overwhelmed with this strong, talented beauty of the whole thing.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true, It's beautiful.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm I'm reading here at the end of
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: the book the brother Joseph, who I came to love
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: and whom I love still would weep to see today's tears.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: On this subject, he himself said, I have always had
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: the satisfaction of seeing truth triumph over error, and darkness
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: give way before light. I believe satisfaction is what the
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: eternal spirit of Brother Joseph felt as he saw the
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: ending of the priesthood and temple ban And I believe
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: that satisfaction is what Brother Joseph will feel as he
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: sees the departure of the ghost of eternal polygamy. This
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: departure is inevitable, I believe, because we will listen to
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: the better angels of our nature, because we want to
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: be not only on the right side of history, but
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: to be on the side of right. Because polygamy bears
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: bad fruit and has failed the test of Joseph's own
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: words of being virtuous, lovely, of good report and praiseworthy,
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: it has proved itself to be a destroyer. We leadership, membership, women,
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: men all are better than to allow the pain and
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: the stain of polygamy to remain on a church that
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: is so vitally good, so profoundly strong in so many ways,
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: and so demonstrably based on the principle of love taught
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: by Jesus of Nazareth, by Brother Joseph, and by every
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: other man and woman across the globe and across the
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: centuries who grasped a spark of God and shared a
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: godly message. The the ghost is finally banished. Each young
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: and tender girl will learn at church and at home
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: that if she marries, she will become the singular and
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: full partner of a husband of her choice, and that
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: her divine nature and individual worth are such that she
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: will never be one of here or in heaven. The
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: writings and the folklore around polygamy, the old stories and
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: the statements even of prophets, will have been put away
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: in the drawer marked expired, and will generate no more
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: fear than ghost stories told around the campfire. Every individual
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: member of the church and every congregation will feel more
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: open to the present of our long lost heavenly mother,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: for the disturbing ghost has been evicted from both earth
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: and heaven, and the glorious Goddess, full and sole partner
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: that she is in the creation and sustaining of life,
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: is welcomed back into the family. Marriages will be sweeter,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: with no holding back a piece of heart just in case.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: A wife will sleep better, never startled in the night
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: by the terrible thought if I die before he does.
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: An elderly widow will spend her last days with peace
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: of mind and no disquieting thought of I wonder if
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: he has taken another wife already. A husband will invest
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: fully in his one and precious partner, with never a
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: thought that she is not enough here or will be
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: added to in heaven. A widow will be able to
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: mourn her loss, and then, if she wishes, look forward
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: to a new relationship in which she can be seen
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: as the desirable woman that she is unobstructed by prior attachment.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: Her love for a past husband and a present husband
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: do not conflict, for she knows that God is not
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: asking her to make impossible choices, and that in heaven
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: there will be many happy surprises. A man who chooses
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: to marry a widow will do so with full confidence
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: that this is the blessed union and can only lead
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: to good in this world and the next, for him,
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: for her, for her children, his children, their children, and
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: for her deceased husband. The entire family invests only in
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: love and not in anxiety, confident that each relationship wife
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: to husband, sister to brother, mother, and father to children
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: is secure. The claim of our church that we create
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: and support strong families will be even more true as
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: the ruptures and the tensions produced by the ghost will
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: have ceased. No one will experience apprehension over paperwork that
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: plots out who will be with whom in heaven. All
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: will breathe easily, confident that in this spectacular organization of
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: the family of God, our father and mother in heaven
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: all of us will receive with each person we have
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: loved and been loved by, a perfectly designed relationship, with
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: eternal joy and good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: running over, a connection that our earthly minds cannot now
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: begin to grasp, and intertwined with every benefit will be
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: the supreme one. The shedding of an old and debilitating
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: distrust in a God that, for many faithful Lds, women
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: and men, has brought untenable spiritual and theological dissonance. A
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: God who has prepared an eternity that will break the
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: hearts of women and render them forever subordinate, will be
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: dismissed as preposterous. We will see with more clarity and
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: with deeper appreciation the one in the mirror, the one
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: on the other side of the bed, and the one
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: who thought this all up in the first place. A
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: new buoyancy will render us a stronger people, a people
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: more prepared to gift the Lord with our portion of Zion.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: Witness the mystery of transformation. Patriarchy has been spinning silk
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: for its chrysalis. The process of deconstruction is underway. A
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: shell breaks and a bright thing shivers when the little
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: butterfly of equality of real partnership begins to move her
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: wings things in Mormondom, a shift will be felt in
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: far places. We are one, and when one is blessed,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: the blessing is for all. A woman in Ethiopia will
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: refuse genital mutilation for her daughter. A girl in the
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: desert of Afghanistan will bravely walk into a school for
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: the first time. And in Osaka, a man for no
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: apparent reason who will decide against purchasing another girl for
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: his brothel and instead might find will find himself drawn
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: to the fishing industry. I have this fantasy. I play
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: it out in my head whenever I get discouraged about religion,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: mine or anybody else's, or sometimes just for fun, that
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: fabulous moment at the opening ceremony of the Olympics, the
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: Parade of Nations, when the athletes start pouring into the arena,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: those beautiful young people in costumes that celebrate their own country,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: waving their own flag, smiling from their heart, so thrilled
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: to be there, representing the people they love, giving their
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: very best, watching each other give their best, everyone a
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: good sport. In my fantasy, it's a parade of religions
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: all come together to celebrate, to show their very best stuff,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: and to admire each other's best stuff. We enter the
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: arena with banners showing the name by which we have
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: been called, decorated with our special symbols. We're smiling and waving.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: We dress for tradition, for history, and local color. As
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: we come in alphabetically, we are led by the Amish,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: and the rear is brought up by the Zoroastrians. We
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: Latter day Saints are right between the Jews and the Mennonites.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: This is a futurist fantasy. There are no metals. The
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: only gold in evidence is the gold of the rule
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: that every religion community rediscovered as it dug deep into
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: its soul. That startlingly leaves simple and indispensable law of
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: compassion that is now treasured above all else. What was
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: so often a platitude has become a platform for habitual action.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: I know I am shamelessly optimistic, and because religion does
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: not own the golden Rule. In the larger narrative, the
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: unchurched and the atheists have also brought their own hearts
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: and hands to create a new Earth. But this particular
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: story is of the religions. We've come together not to compete,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: but to share joy and to learn. Here's what we
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: have found that has proven to be godly? What have
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: you found? I love it when the Latter day Saints
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: go marching in. I get to be in that number,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: and I couldn't be more pleased, smiling and waving. We've
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: kept enough of our weirdness to make us interesting, but
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: we've given up the things that were hurtful and did
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: not measure up to the rule that we take very seriously.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: Now nobody preaches, We just share. I spend hours visiting
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: this storytelling booths, those sacred little spaces, unveiling the different
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: faces of God. I sit quietly with the Buddhists practice
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: emptying my cluttered mind and courting enlightenment. Oh m oh,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: I watch in wonderment the drama, the spectacle of the Catholics,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: from early course mortality placed to the splendor of the
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: High Mass. I come back again and again to the Quakers,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: resting in silence purity, so grateful for their centuries of
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: working for social justice. At my own booth, the Mormon Booth,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: I get to tell some really great stories. After all,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: it is my business to tell the stories, and after all,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: this is my fantasy. Few people even ask about polygamy now,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: because it is well known that truly we gave it
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: up long ago, completely and for real. We discovered, in
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: that great searching of the soul, as we burnished the
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: gold of our rule into full brightness, that polygamy did
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: not pass the test of compassion, of kindness, of seeing
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: everyone as our own kind. Once we embraced compassion with
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: full clarity, giving up polygamy root and branch was not
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: that hard. We tell Brother Joseph's stories in heaven, but
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: I like best our stories of the hear and now,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: and I tell them, hoping Joseph might be listening. With
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: that thought, that powerful wish to tell Joseph, this fantasy
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: morphs into a new one. I move out of the
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: future into the past. I will continue to walk with
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: the saints and play my little part in the story.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: And when my part is finished and I'm in that higher,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: brighter place, I will still watch with interest. I will
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: visit that peering window I made up, that hole in
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: heaven that lets us see the whole of Earth. Maybe
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: Gerald and I will take an excursion thereafter our promised picnic.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: He and I are still sealed, you know, But Mormon
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: authority is the least of it. We are sealed as
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: friends forever by the matter of love and grief and
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: loss and learning, that eternal learning that moves us ever
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: toward God. Sister Emma will join us on occasion, I'm sure,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: and perhaps we may even have the honor of Brother
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: Joseph's company as well. He liked nothing better than to
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: be with his friends. I will watch to see what
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: may come of my own work. When the pioneers crossed
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: the plains, often they planted siegs that would bring a
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: harvest to those who would come after divine economy that
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: brings peace to one who plants words. I have told,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: the stories, I have shared my vision.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: I am well, Carolyn. That was beautiful. I really felt that.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: And I just feel when you were talking about that
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: we'll be asked to give our best. I just feel
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: so honored to be here and to be receiving your best.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: The words that you've shared, the stories, the stories of
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: others that you've You've been the one to champion their voices.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: So just trank you. That is that was just rue,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: you know, And I'm the one that had the opportunity
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: to do it. Yeah, this was my calling and I
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: knew it was my calling, and I'm thrilled to be
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: able to you know this is this is healing work
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: that we're all of us doing here. Yes, we three
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: talking in this room. We're all doing committed to doing
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: healing work, and we are healers in one way or another.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: And when we spot something that is pain that people
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: who are in pain, things that bring that pain, we
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: automatically feel called to say, is there something we can
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: do about that? Right, And in this particular case, I
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: knew there was something I could do about this, and
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: so I did. And so it's here forever for whoever
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: wants to learn from this path of mine and this
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: path of hundreds of people who contributed. I know, I
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: know this has brought tremendous peace to a lot of couples.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: I know that, And I have people email me saying,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: you showed me away. I could give up polygamy without
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: having to give up the church that I love.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and for that, I love that you have shined
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: that light for others. Then to pick it up and
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: have the courage to listen, like we said to the
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: voice inside yeah, and to still belong to a community
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: and a faith that is so integral to who they are.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: Right, Mormonism is better than this. It just is better
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: than this. If you pull out all the weeds, and
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: you know, this is I think the biggest one. I
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: think this is the biggest weed that needs to be
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: pulled out of the whole Mormon fabric.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Wroten All, I agree with you. And one of the
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: things that I liked when we were reading the book is,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: you know, it's easy for people to to complain about
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: things that they're not going going well, and there are
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: things you don't agree with, et cetera. But you offer solutions.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: And the one example that you gave that was for
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: me powerful in the book was you said, we've done
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: this before in nineteen seventy eight when we changed when
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: the church changed its doctrine about giving the priests stood
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: blessings to all men. That that was a shift that
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: we weren't really necessarily anticipating, but it was done. It
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: continues to be done, and we don't go back and say, oh, well,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: you know the reality is as they all men aren't
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: really worthy to have the priesthood. No, that's been let
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: go of now it moves forward with all men being
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: able to have the priesthood. It's the same thing. Maybe
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: you can kind of put that puzzle piece together for
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: us again here as we end.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: Well, sure, and the particular thing you mentioned of changing
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of our ideas and policies regarding our black
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: brothers and sisters a highly welcome, of course, I guess,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: and a godly thing to have done. Women are still
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: of the last wagon in terms of things that it
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: appears to me that the authorities of the Church are
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: concerned about. And I have said, and I believe with
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: all my heart, that society in general, religious society, all society,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: and certainly our own Mormon Latter day Saints society must
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: move historically into more and more of a place of light,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: a more of a positive place. You know, we if
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: we get up here and look down, we see history.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: You know, way back there, the women were burned, the
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: women couldn't vote, all of these. We have sustained a
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: patriarchy for centuries and centuries and centuries, and prior to that,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: you know, there was some something a little a little different.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: But when patriarch parchy really really got hold, and it
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: still has hold, tremendous pain exists because of that. But
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: just like history insisted that the Middle Ages give way
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: to the Enlightenment, because it was the progress of human
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: consciousness that demanded that, I am submitting that the ongoing
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: progress of human consciousness is in the process of requiring
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: that we cross the rocky plains of patriarchy into the
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: promised land of partnership.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: That is an essential thing. It's not optional, and there's
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: a lot of pain going on right now around you know,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: how do we do that or do we even want
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: to it at all? But it is essential. I know
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: that to be true. May it be so? And so
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: it is?
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: Amen? Amen, I love that. I disagree. Thank you so much.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: As we close, I wanted to just say, you're in
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: the process of writing your memoirs. Basically you're going through
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: diaries and journals.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: Who told you you did?
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: And I know that that's that's something near and der
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: to your heart and we look forward to whatever that
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: comes out to be.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: Well, now that you brought that up, which I was
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: never going to do, I yes, I have kept a
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: diary since say I mentioned I was a senior in
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: high school in nineteen seventy six, fall up, and I
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 3: started keeping a diary. And I kept a diary ever since,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: ever since. I gift thousands and thousands of pages. Yeah,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: and so I am working on a project. It's a
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: long term project. I don't know what it'll look like.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: It's already bigger than one book. But the title that
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: I have is the Diary of a Mormon feminist Subtitley
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: my sixty five years, my sixty five year frontline mission
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: to convert patriarchy to partnership.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: Oh man, wow, I love that, Carolyn.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well I want to end on that. That's the
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: teaser for when the first book comes out. We got
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: to come back now.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, thank you, thank you very much. Yes, I
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: love visiting with you, and perhaps we can do this
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: again sometimes I would. May you be blessed, May I
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: be blessed. May every listener be blessed to find the
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: highest intention. Do they feel they have come here to
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: contribute and fearlessly and joyfully do it? Yeah?
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: Perfect, we're all in this together. Yeah, let's do it together.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here, Thanks for allowing
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: us come into your home. I guess I should say
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: we're the ones that are here.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you for coming, so until later, we'll see you
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: next time.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. If you're enjoying the Observatory Podcast, please
• 1:16:35
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• 1:16:39
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• 1:16:42
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• 1:16:50
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• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: this energy that's emanating in the world today. There's been
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: so much separation and we want to find a way
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: to create conversations where we can come together, not divide
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: so much as we have been to learn to come
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: together in unity.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you you've been listening to the Observatory Podcast
• 1:17:16
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• 1:17:19
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