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S2 Ep 2: In a Nutshell · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:04
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:08
  passionate about the
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:14
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: following very different paths to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:33
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: In this episode,
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  Rose describes the three key components of Newfield's
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  maturation theory and the
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  universal potentialities meant to bear fruit in every person as
• 0:47
  development unfolds.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: We invite our listeners to trust this process,
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  SPEAKER_03: have faith in nature's design,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: and focus on providing the conditions that allow for growth to unfold.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: I pull in some ideas from James Hillman's Acorn Theory,
• 1:00
  and we both express wonder at the exquisite beauty of the
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  intelligence of life and
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: the human experience.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Rose.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Hi.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: How's it going?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's going well.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Good, good, good.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing well.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're waiting on bated breath for spring to actually start.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're having a bit of a fall spring.
• 1:30
  Yeah,
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  snow,
• 1:32
  coal,
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  daffodils,
• 1:35
  the few that bloomed so far covered in snow this morning.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: We need more snow where I am.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah, so not a bad thing.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, here we are, episode two.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back, everyone.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back, everyone.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to talk about?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, my hope is to kind of talk a lot about maturation.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:14
  Really start to unpack that theory or that concept from the
• 2:22
  Neufeld approach and
• 2:24
  also kind of get more digging deeper into this idea of what he
• 2:29
  means or what I mean
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: when I say that word developmental.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: What does that actually mean?
• 2:37
  I am glad we're going to talk about that yes and and I think
• 2:43
  maturation is
• 2:46
  confusing oh yes yeah and so it will be good to clear that up
• 2:53
  and establish what is
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: meant in the Neufeld model yeah when we discuss maturation
• 3:02
  yeah absolutely yeah so i'm hoping to get that a good starting
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  place in this
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  episode though we will be talking about it for many episodes so
• 3:13
  i don't expect all
• 3:16
  questions to be resolved today are all questions ever fully
• 3:24
  resolved definitely not
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  Isn't that part of maturation is understanding when some
• 3:34
  problems are unsolvable
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  SPEAKER_03: and getting bigger than the problem.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is there,
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  SPEAKER_00: before we kind of dive into that,
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  SPEAKER_00: is there anything that came up for you or that,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: is lingering from episode one?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Any pieces that you want to make sure to...
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that question.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: I have just had,
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
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  SPEAKER_03: a lot of,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: or I should say I've encountered some content that reinforced,
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
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  SPEAKER_03: a lot of the things that we were talking about in episode one.
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  It was interesting because we ended that episode talking about
• 4:18
  other influences or influences,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
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  SPEAKER_03: on Neufeld's work.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, yeah.
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  um and how he's trying to synthesize and distill things and so
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  it was kind of
• 4:32
  synchronistically i i picked up um soul's code it's been on my
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  bookshelf it's a
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  SPEAKER_03: book by james hillman who is who worked with young um carl young and
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  SPEAKER_03: then launched his own,
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  SPEAKER_03: like developed his own psychological model,
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  SPEAKER_03: archetypal psychology,
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  SPEAKER_03: I believe is what his model is.
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  SPEAKER_03: But you and I talk a lot about the acorn model, right?
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  Or using that as a metaphor and analogy for the blueprint,
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  I think that we come with.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's my understanding that
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  that Hillman is credited with the acorn theory,
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  at least for really like developing that out.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure if it was him or Young originally,
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  SPEAKER_03: but I know that Hillman gets a lot of credit for developing that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
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  SPEAKER_00: What is the acorn theory?
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, it is this idea that in fact, here, let me pull it up.
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  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he pulls in even,
• 5:44
  like ancient wisdom,
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  he references ancient sources and sort of archetypal
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  understanding here.
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  SPEAKER_03: But he says,
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  SPEAKER_03: the acorn theory proposes,
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  SPEAKER_03: and I will bring evidence for the claim,
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  SPEAKER_03: that you and I and every single person is born with a defining image.
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  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that.
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  SPEAKER_03: Individuality resides in a formal cause,
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  SPEAKER_03: to use old philosophical language going back to Aristotle.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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  And it's essentially that we come with a blueprint,
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  a purpose that will unfold.
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  It might not unfold in a productive way,
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  but it will push and it will...
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  Interesting.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it will make itself known.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  You know,
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  somehow,
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  and we'll either be grappling with it,
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  trying to suppress it,
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  you know um yeah she he even talks about how like the way the
• 6:52
  way kids act out can
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  be a really can give us some hints as to what that purpose is
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  interesting that's
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: fascinating
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, there's more I'd love to share from here.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it will come up through the conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I imagine it will.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 7:16
  Well,
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  that kind of is a perfect start to talking more about some of
• 7:24
  these basic pieces of...
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  SPEAKER_00: what Neufeld would call kind of like maturation theory in a nutshell.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: when he says maturation theory,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think he's referring to his own,
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  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: again,
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  SPEAKER_00: he's pulling from,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: he's pulling from,
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  SPEAKER_00: are you laughing because it's a nutshell?
• 7:44
  Well,
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  I'm laughing because the name of this chapter is called In a Nutshell.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: In a nutshell, that's so funny.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: In a nutshell, The Acorn Theory and the Redemption of Psychology.
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  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_02: That was the name of the chapter.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I just read that, the first chapter.
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  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
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  SPEAKER_00: So one of the very,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: so one of the very first things,
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  SPEAKER_00: now I think this will be connected to,
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  SPEAKER_00: but not exactly the same as,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: what you're speaking to with this acorn theory or the blueprint,
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  SPEAKER_00: but essentially...
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  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld speaks to this,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  one of the most basic pieces of maturation theory being that
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  every single human
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  SPEAKER_00: being is born with certain innate potentials.
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  SPEAKER_03: He says every child is gifted.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_03: That's, I mean, Hellman.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it is these,
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  SPEAKER_00: in Neufeld's view or Neufeld's approach,
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  these innate potentials are what we should be paying the most
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  attention to.
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  SPEAKER_00: And everyone has them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has them.
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  SPEAKER_00: So kind of different than,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  what is the individual blueprint that each child is born with
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  that might be unique,
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  to that individual this would be something that these specific
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  potentialities come
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  SPEAKER_00: with each of us okay
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that these are the potentialities that exist,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether or not we have like a cognitive impairment,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether or not a child may have autism,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether or not a child is born with certain giftedness,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: do the opposite end,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Have a high IQ,
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  SPEAKER_00: low IQ,
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  SPEAKER_00: a disability,
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  SPEAKER_00: whatever it may be,
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  SPEAKER_00: every human being has these innate potentialities.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they are,
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  SPEAKER_00: in his model,
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  SPEAKER_00: kind of what allow that,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we're using this oak tree analogy,
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  SPEAKER_00: what allow that acorn to grow into the oak.
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  That these are the potentialities that drive that process and
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  define kind of what
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  SPEAKER_00: the fruit of it ultimately is.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so the oak represents maturation.
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  right yep yep kind of reaching your one's full potential one's
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  full potential so
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  SPEAKER_03: not just being fully grown physically
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  SPEAKER_03: but having this emotional maturity.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I want to speak to today is like, what is that?
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  SPEAKER_00: What is that potential?
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I feel like just really defining what that is within his model,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: what those potential,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: those innate potentialities are.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: But before kind of getting to that,
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  I just want to kind of go back because between our last episode
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  and this one,
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  I've done a lot of thinking going back to season one and sort
• 11:03
  of how we laid out
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  SPEAKER_00: really our starting place.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the name of our podcast is Attachment Matters, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And in that season one,
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  SPEAKER_00: so much of our focus for the first part was on the roots of the plants,
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  SPEAKER_00: the roots.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in this case, the roots of the tree.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in looking at Neufeld's bigger,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: broader model and this concept of maturation,
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  SPEAKER_00: what it does is gives the context for those roots.
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  SPEAKER_00: The roots aren't there just to be roots.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: they're really there to help,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: form the foundation or one key component of this broader story,
• 11:47
  which is how does the tree grow to reach its full potential
• 11:53
  okay yeah i just have
• 11:54
  to say chapter two in this book is growing down and he's of
• 12:00
  course he uses the
• 12:01
  metaphor of the tree yes go ahead that's so cool and i just
• 12:06
  want to say as you're
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: speaking to hillman and young you know
• 12:11
  when Neufeld talks about the key components of how he will lay
• 12:18
  out maturation for us,
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  Two of those major areas have Jung as one of the main kind of
• 12:28
  sources for his material,
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  SPEAKER_00: for the theory that he has synthesized and distilled.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Jung shows up there.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So twice.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so it makes perfect sense to me that Hillman,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: as someone who knew Jung and is super influenced by him,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: is doing some of the same synthesis,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: and I was surprised to have him say,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: this is a book about childhood and about making sense of children.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 13:00
  Yeah,
• 13:02
  so I don't know enough about all of the,
• 13:04
  you know,
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  but you're right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps Neufeld has been very influenced by this book, too.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's possible.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:16
  so so really we're talking about um again you know we're using
• 13:22
  the oak tree we
• 13:23
  could also talk about a fruit tree that ultimately what we're
• 13:27
  yearning for is that
• 13:28
  fruit tree to bear fruit yes and i i re-listened to our
• 13:36
  conversation recently and
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: and remember even as we were talking thinking about
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: that metaphor and wanting to ask, you know, can you
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: What is the fruit?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go there.
• 13:55
  So with Neufeld,
• 13:56
  everything,
• 13:57
  not everything,
• 13:58
  but so many of his concepts have three sides.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if you can picture a visual where if potential is right in the middle,
• 14:08
  like that concept of what is this innate potential and what
• 14:12
  does it look like when
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: we reach it?
• 14:18
  the triangle around it go ahead i was going to ask okay that's
• 14:21
  what i wanted i
• 14:22
  wanted the shape yeah are we talking about like a pyramid or a
• 14:25
  triangle triangle
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: okay yeah yeah triangle yep so it's a two-dimensional
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we're imagining.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Imagining.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: A two-dimensional, yep, a triangle of three sides.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:41
  So the first side would be to reach the potential of being a
• 14:46
  separate being.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this has Jung written all over it.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it does.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Individuation.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is individuation.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is differentiation.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is to reach that potential of functioning,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: being capable of functioning as a separate individual,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: being unique,
• 15:16
  um he uses the word viable that's the word that came to mind
• 15:19
  from our last
• 15:20
  conversation yeah that that you know even if when a baby is
• 15:24
  born being separated
• 15:25
  with that from that umbilical core being able to breathe on
• 15:27
  your own you know being
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: able to like you know live to survive um as a distinct individual and um
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: and even separate from our attachments,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: whether they be personal or impersonal,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: that we can stand on our own two feet.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 15:57
  and so it seems like a contradiction to everything we've talked
• 16:00
  about with
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: attachments and how important it is,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: but if we see it as,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: this is the ultimate fruit –
• 16:09
  This is why the roots are there,
• 16:12
  is to allow for this to develop and grow.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: that the deeper we can have that intimacy,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: the more it frees us to kind of be our own person.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that those two processes are actually probably,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll probably get into this in upcoming episodes,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: are interconnected.
• 16:41
  That the deeper the attachment is,
• 16:42
  the more we are able to mature and individuate.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to be locked into that pursuit of sameness.
• 16:53
  okay yes yes yes because we can attach at these deeper levels
• 17:00
  we can be free to be
• 17:01
  an individual without fearing the loss of that relationship
• 17:08
  it's that rest is what
• 17:12
  i'm hearing right that's because that can i guess that
• 17:19
  connection that root system
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: is so well established.
• 17:25
  And that is pulling in the nutrients necessary for the
• 17:31
  maturation to occur and for
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: the fruit to be born.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and where's the energy going?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: As a gardener, you hear that a lot, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: You think about that a lot.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or an herbalist.
• 17:44
  I have an herbalist background as well where we talk about what
• 17:48
  time of year do you
• 17:49
  harvest the greens of a plant versus the roots of the plant or
• 17:55
  the seed of a plant
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: for medicinal use.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: It has a lot to do with
• 18:03
  Well,
• 18:03
  when a plant goes to flower,
• 18:05
  the energy of the plant is going to the seed.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to the flower.
• 18:09
  It's not locked into those roots versus a different time of
• 18:13
  year where the roots
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: are getting all the energy.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: and they are going to be more potent.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like the deeper those roots go,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: it allows that growth and that energy,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: that kind of life force,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: is moving towards that fruition,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: the fruit,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: more than,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: it allows for that upward growth.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and this...
• 18:44
  I do recall this from learning about attachment way before I
• 18:51
  ever heard about Neufeld,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: the other models of attachment theory and,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: the,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: the,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: the capacity for independence.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've talked about this to like the, the, the inner, uh,
• 19:09
  push for independence yeah this is the inner potential to move
• 19:14
  toward this is we
• 19:15
  all have it yes yes but that we won't exercise that or we won't
• 19:21
  even probably sense
• 19:23
  it if we don't feel safe enough that that's what gives us that
• 19:27
  capacity right
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: toward independence is feeling
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Knowing we are connected to this larger system, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: That provides energy, I think.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good way to think of it.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: It provides the energy for that independence.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: To kind of venture forth.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So this side of the triangle where it's a separate being is the fruit.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's the potential.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: One of those innate potentials that can unfold.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: When we dig into this more and hone in on it specifically,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: like hopefully in an episode or two,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: that is what he calls the emergent process.
• 20:16
  And that is that venturing forth energy that does spring out of
• 20:23
  secure attachments.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: when those needs are being met, that energy is free to venture forth.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that innate movement towards independence.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: I want the fruit to be tangible or something, if that makes sense.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I think in my mind as I was thinking about what is the fruit,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: I was seeing this Oak tree, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: The Oak tree now producing,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: like contributing,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: contributing nourishment to the system,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: which I think is also a sign of maturity is when you,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: you are a viable being when you are contributing in a meaningful way.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: if we're just looking at this concept of a separate being,
• 21:28
  we got two more to talk about to see the whole picture of what
• 21:33
  he has in his model.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: it is what allows for us,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: if you're going back to that blueprint idea,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: this is where that individual...
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: image or that individual gift,
• 21:52
  that individual personality emerges and does make up that one
• 22:01
  instrument in the symphony.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: That is here with that purpose.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: To contribute that fruit.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: That it's meant to bear.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:20
  Yeah,
• 22:21
  I have a thought about this,
• 22:22
  but I kind of want to talk about the other two.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I don't know what to do.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Should I dive in here or should I talk about the other two first?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Rose.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, me too.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing the same thing.
• 22:34
  I want to go this direction,
• 22:35
  but do we need to cover all three sides first?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:39
  Should I just,
• 22:40
  let's just do the other two and then we can go anywhere we want
• 22:43
  from there.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So another side of that triangle is to be an adaptive being.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we've talked about this one a lot in season one,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: because this is where we get that concept of futility.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is a fruit, a fruit of this, these issues.
• 23:11
  encounters from the moment we're born but throughout our lives
• 23:18
  of coming up against
• 23:19
  that which we cannot change and and having our tears the facing
• 23:26
  futility feeling
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: futility and what Neufeld says is like the the SHIT to fertilizer and
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You face the poop of life, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are able to feel that futility,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: grieve,
• 23:50
  move through that extremely vulnerable and extremely difficult
• 23:53
  emotional experience...
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: you are transformed by it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Alchemized.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You evolve through it.
• 24:05
  And you are able then to become this adaptive being over the
• 24:12
  course of your life.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's...
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: If those grooves are kind of well-worn,
• 24:19
  even if your tears get stuck or you get defended at times
• 24:24
  against feeling that futility,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: you're probably not going to stay there forever.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be able to...
• 24:32
  come back to that place of adaptation where we can be
• 24:37
  transformed by that which we
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: cannot change.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: But this is something that ideally is...
• 24:47
  part of a developmental process from a very young age you know
• 24:53
  and when this gets
• 24:53
  stuck and he's i don't i can't speak to this example but he has
• 24:57
  you know in
• 24:58
  listening to him talk about it he does talk about how some
• 25:01
  babies get stuck and
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: lose their ability to be adaptive from like a
• 25:08
  like birth basically depending on the environment depending on
• 25:11
  the conditions this
• 25:13
  process can get stuck in in a very early stage of a person's
• 25:19
  life so and I think
• 25:22
  I've heard him talk about like working with young like
• 25:26
  adolescents adjudicated
• 25:28
  adolescents yes oh yeah yeah and how he's he's always most
• 25:32
  concerned about the ones
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: who can't access their tears right
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:38
  And it would make sense that certain home environments would
• 25:46
  create that stuckness.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: That the brain,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: when the wounding is too much,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: when it becomes too much,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: the vulnerability is too much to bear.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: The brain shuts it down.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not conscious.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm also fascinated by the idea that this futility,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: this process is so integral to maturation.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's key to it.
• 26:19
  And adaptation,
• 26:21
  you know,
• 26:21
  that it is,
• 26:23
  and that we are so clearly,
• 26:27
  it's part of our makeup.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of our innate potentials.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, we're wired for it.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: You hear that, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: You hear that phrase used a lot.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: We're wired for it.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't love that one because it's mechanistic, I think.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: However, you know, I love this.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: It feels more like life to me to think of it this way.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that we are
• 26:57
  made for it where it's just part of who we are it's part of our
• 27:00
  makeup that's right
• 27:01
  part of our makeup i love that we are meant to adapt right yes
• 27:09
  and so we need
• 27:10
  futility in our life right this is where these external
• 27:13
  circumstances play a
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: crucial role in our maturation
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that is exquisitely beautiful to me.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: It just, life is, is a miracle.
• 27:31
  it is yeah you said that so well and I feel like I could just
• 27:35
  dwell with that image
• 27:38
  or that that picture of like yeah this is how we didn't come to
• 27:46
  this earth we
• 27:46
  weren't born to never suffer to never encounter pain or
• 27:50
  challenge their life has
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: limitations and
• 28:02
  and it is how we adapt to them and grieve them that makes us
• 28:07
  fully human.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and this comes back to some of this.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking of Hellman,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking of other Jungian writers,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: thinkers,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: who talk about
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: these ancient concepts of fate and destiny that I think also come in,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: fate are,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: it's those external circumstances that will bring out our potential,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: which is our destiny.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's just different language for these ancient concepts.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:46
  And of course,
• 28:47
  for me,
• 28:48
  just the Judeo-Christian,
• 28:51
  you know,
• 28:51
  there's so much.
• 28:52
  I mean,
• 28:52
  we could have,
• 28:55
  you know,
• 28:55
  so much conversation,
• 28:57
  you know,
• 28:58
  around...
• 29:03
  just so much i mean in terms of the separate being you know
• 29:08
  capable of functioning
• 29:09
  without attachments the story of job you know and has just been
• 29:14
  stripped of
• 29:15
  everything he's ever loved in his life and can he still you
• 29:19
  know keep the faith and
• 29:21
  then the adaptive being my goodness we could just you know you
• 29:25
  know it's for me you
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: know as a christian it's we're coming up on uh
• 29:31
  at least with the western church um coming up on palm sunday
• 29:38
  good friday easter and
• 29:41
  that you know i mean i'm not a theologian so i i'm very humble
• 29:45
  in what i speak to
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: here and probably could be torn apart by many many people with much more
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: understanding than i have but
• 29:55
  um but yeah there is something to say about the suffering and
• 30:02
  this going through
• 30:03
  this process of futility and loss that allows us to have
• 30:08
  experienced some sort of
• 30:09
  rebirth yeah i yes i've used that frequently lately i think it
• 30:21
  speaks to the
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: alchemy again yes it's the transformation
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it is old parts of us dying.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what happens when we go through this adaptive process.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: And allow futility to change us.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 30:44
  And change,
• 30:45
  like,
• 30:46
  to me,
• 30:46
  change doesn't quite capture it because it is this,
• 30:51
  it's evolving.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just changing from one thing to another.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: to me,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: that's this more horizontal movement rather than this blooming,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: that happens through the futility.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: You speak to that very well.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: I totally can.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can, like, feel what you're saying.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the richness of it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it is striking to me,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: just like it was striking to you,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: how exquisitely beautiful,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: how you said about this.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have to encounter these external obstacles.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly, it's exquisitely beautiful to me that...
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: the adaptive aspect of this model is both a means and an end.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I can't... I'm also struck by...
• 31:53
  the the embedded systems i think you know we you can talk about
• 31:59
  this as birth you
• 32:02
  know a child being born you know but then you also said it's
• 32:06
  like a rebirth for us
• 32:08
  but i think even we can take this even further and see the
• 32:12
  culture going through
• 32:13
  its own right now you know bumping up against all kinds of
• 32:17
  futility and being
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: forced
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: to change in some way, you know, what will that look like?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: But something new is going to be born.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's scary and painful.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: That part of the process is always scary and painful.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it makes sense that we resist it.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So just to cover this third one,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: and then I'm like,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: we get to go wherever we want from here,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: in terms of looking at all of these together or specific ones.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: But the third one is to become a social being.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: this is one where for those who are,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:11
  familiar with what we've talked about already in the podcast or
• 33:14
  with the Neufeld approach,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: this also seems like a contradiction.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because he,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of my,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: the peer orientation,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: all that is just like,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: wait,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: aren't we saying we're not supposed to be social?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is this?
• 33:28
  You know,
• 33:28
  like,
• 33:29
  we shouldn't care so much about these friendships or,
• 33:31
  you know,
• 33:32
  so.
• 33:32
  So this was helpful for me to just like take this piece in more
• 33:38
  and try to understand it more.
• 33:40
  In terms of a fruit,
• 33:43
  what he means by being a social being is this ability to be separate.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that separate being,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: that first concept there comes into play here,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: that we are able to be separate and
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Without the loss of togetherness.
• 34:06
  And,
• 34:07
  and this is critical,
• 34:09
  we are able to be together without the loss of separateness.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I just got the chills here.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:22
  I know I've said these words multiple times talking with you
• 34:27
  and in our episodes,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: but there is so much loaded into those two sentences.
• 34:38
  And there is so much loaded into this for those of us who are
• 34:45
  in this cultural
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: phenomenon around gender that
• 34:49
  There's so much here that is essentially the work you do every
• 34:54
  day with parents.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: This idea of having integrity.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Without the loss of diplomacy is how he puts it.
• 35:09
  So I am able to hold my integrity while still being in
• 35:13
  relationship to you who I am
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: different from.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:24
  Yeah,
• 35:24
  when you said those sentences,
• 35:29
  the word enmeshment immediately came to my mind.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:36
  Which I think is that difficulty to be in relationship and be a
• 35:43
  separate being.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: When our state is too reliant on
• 35:53
  the other yeah and what we what we see going on for the other
• 36:01
  which is a big part
• 36:02
  of what we talk about too is you know noticing what you're
• 36:06
  seeing and that that's
• 36:07
  actually where i wanted to go previously you know when we were
• 36:12
  like okay which
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: direction do we go um but before going there you know and kind of
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: talking about that because I think it's important,
• 36:22
  the alarm a parent can feel if they don't see their child
• 36:32
  fulfilling these three fruits.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what these three sides are?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Are the...
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is like for maturation.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: For when we look at maturation.
• 36:44
  So,
• 36:45
  you know,
• 36:46
  zooming back again,
• 36:49
  you know,
• 36:50
  we're in a triangle within a triangle.
• 36:55
  Attachment and vulnerability are the other two sides to the
• 36:59
  bigger triangle.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maturation, attachment and vulnerability are
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now we're just honing in on maturation.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: But we're going to see how all of them are just interwoven,
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: but we're just mapping out maturation right now.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 37:23
  I just wanted to lift up this sort of paradoxical nature of
• 37:26
  what you were saying.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: It can seem like a paradox.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: can I just bring back the sort of,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: because I think when we think of attachment,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: it's this sort of,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: sideways thing,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that makes sense, this sort of horizontal attachment.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to offer,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: maybe the idea of the blooming visual as an alternative,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: that our children bloom maybe from us and then they bloom.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this more nested,
• 38:03
  yes idea yeah okay okay yeah yeah when we talk about attachment
• 38:13
  as a womb you know
• 38:17
  those those stages of attachment the senses the sameness the
• 38:22
  loyalty value you know
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: being valued mattering
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: the heart,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: the emotions,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: the psychological,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: like that's all the womb that an individual emerges from,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: that the fruit is growing out of,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: or the fruit grows out of a process that unfolds from that.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that it all has to happen first and then the growth happens.
• 38:54
  It's interconnected,
• 38:55
  and that's really where we'll end up through these conversations.
• 38:58
  We're not there yet in terms of all of the integrating of these
• 39:02
  different aspects.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: We'll keep doing it,
• 39:05
  but we'll go deeper with it yet in terms of talking about the
• 39:10
  interplay between all
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: of this.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to make sure we don't leave that too quickly.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: The fruit and how a parent can say, oh, shit.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's where I wanted.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted us to spend a little time there before ending this episode.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, oh, my gosh, is my child a separate being?
• 39:35
  Oh,
• 39:35
  my gosh,
• 39:35
  is my child a social being,
• 39:37
  not just a peer-oriented social being?
• 39:41
  But like,
• 39:42
  are they an individual while they are in relationship to their friends?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Are they an individual in relationship to me,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: to their coworkers,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: to those who they are in relationship with,
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: are they able to have their tears and adapt?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: but the,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: the whole thing about,
• 40:01
  about all of this is maybe this brings it back to something you
• 40:05
  wanted to talk
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: about too,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: is,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: is
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: this is where we want our insight to be focused.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the question isn't, is my child here already?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Do they already have the full fruit?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, what if they don't?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the focus I want to encourage people to have.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can't stop you if that's where you're at.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is all part of the process for us.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: But, but ultimately this is a, a,
• 40:39
  a map to help us see if these things aren't present or are
• 40:47
  potential factors for my child,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: that can help guide where my attention needs to go,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: what I need to tend to in the way that I'm relating to them,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: in the way that I'm understanding them,
• 41:01
  in coming up with an explanation for some of the behavior that
• 41:07
  feels so challenging.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you and I, Jen, sometimes talk about this.
• 41:15
  You speak to how,
• 41:21
  and I hope I'm okay to say this,
• 41:26
  we shouldn't be just focusing on desistance.
• 41:34
  It is,
• 41:35
  and so I want to invite people listening to take this step back
• 41:40
  and say,
• 41:42
  As we go through these conversations and we learn about this
• 41:47
  emergent factor,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: the adaptive or the emergent process,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: the adaptive process,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: the integrative process is what leads to the social being,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: that fruit.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the ability to have mixed feelings,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: to have on the one hand,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: on the other hand,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: this is what makes us respectful.
• 42:06
  Because we're able to be in our integrity while also
• 42:10
  considering the other.
• 42:13
  When we're not mature,
• 42:16
  we can only consider ourselves or the other,
• 42:19
  one at a time.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So again,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting a little in the weeds there,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: but what I'm trying to say here is,
• 42:29
  how about our attention and our tending go to understanding how
• 42:38
  these things are or
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: are not mature?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: functioning for our child.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Versus the specific behaviors that our attention can just get stuck to.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: For good reason.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's good reason for that because they're terrifying.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's such good reason to focus on desistance.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's very tangible...
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: reasons why we do that to want to protect our child from harm.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it may not work for us to do that.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was just going to say, the question I like to ask is, is it working?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: And, and I think seeing those behaviors as
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: The behaviors aren't the problem, right?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: This is that sort of treating symptoms idea again.
• 43:44
  Yes,
• 43:45
  and that when you go to treat the symptoms,
• 43:46
  you're not really addressing the root cause.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that you can't teach maturity.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Maturity unfolds.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so then what do you do,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: as you are seeing behaviors that you find alarming,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: concerning,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: that communicate to you that you're not seeing these fruits of maturity,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just go dig up the tree,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: or start trying to cut the limbs to look like fruit,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's not how it works.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Pushing the river, pushing the river.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: What is needed?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: What can we do?
• 44:37
  So I'm hearing you say,
• 44:40
  first we have to question what we're seeing and make sense of it.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of just seeing the behavior, make sense of the behavior.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:55
  And the answer is kind of,
• 44:57
  if I'm not mistaken,
• 44:58
  you can correct me here if I'm off base.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: The answer is always the same.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that's more attachment.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's yes.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say it a little differently.
• 45:13
  When we're talking about maturation,
• 45:16
  and we're not going to get to the answers yet.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first I'm going to say.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get a simple.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're going to dabble in them.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: So a simple framework, and I'm going to add a little bit to this.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is the second framework.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: When we go back to that maturation in a nutshell,
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: first point,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: everybody's born with certain innate potentials.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: We just ran through what those look like when they are fully in fruition.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Separate being, adaptive being, social being.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can be myself without losing a relationship to those I love.
• 45:52
  So the second big bullet point here is that it is in our nature
• 45:57
  to mature.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what you're speaking to right now.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: That everyone is born to mature.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is our nature.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is where the gardener idea comes from versus the sculptor.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: That we are tending the soil.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: We are creating.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the simple is create the conditions and free up the impediments.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if we think about water running downhill,
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: rivulets reaching the ocean,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: that unfolding of that process is a question of the right,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: conducive conditions and lack of impediment,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: freedom from impediment.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not going to be satisfying to anyone hearing this.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Including you, probably.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's just, we're going to get there.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to have it all delivered in a package today.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of what do I need to do?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, just breathe.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And know, this is part of this, actually, this point here.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's in our nature to mature.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: I was going to say breathe and trust.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: Have faith in the acorn.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Have faith.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole thing right there.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: That was a huge wake-up call for me.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: I remember that coming together for me in my mind.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, she's a human.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: I have to have faith in that.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: Humans mature.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: Life is intelligent.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: I do believe that.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: Life is intelligent.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what belief system even discounts that.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: Clearly, there's some intelligence to life.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, some do, though.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to say something really quickly here.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe I'll come back to it.
• 48:00
  This learning and behavioral approach that has been the water
• 48:07
  we have swam in,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: we don't even realize there's an alternative to it,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: okay?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this a lot in season one,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: has been predominant in our culture,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: in our institutions,
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: in science,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: in psychology for so long.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it is this idea that we are a blank slate.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: that we are a blank slate, we don't have inner springs.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: The developmental approach of the type that we're talking about with Dr.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Gordon Newfeld and other true developmentalists,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: not our ages and stages,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: like once you're two years old,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to be this.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is incorrect.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is a false assumption that developmentalism got kind of warped into.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: But at a deeper level...
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: We have the inner springs.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: We are not blank slates.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was going to say something else, but I lost my train of thought.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Just that what you're saying.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: So unfortunately,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: the cultural waters we are swimming in,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: the institutional waters,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: the sheets you got given by your pediatrician,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: it's so entrenched.
• 49:34
  And it actually is based on this idea that there is no
• 49:38
  intrinsic blueprint,
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: that there are no inner potentials,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: that everything has to be taught.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Everything has to be sculpted.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't do it right...
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: As parents, it's all on us.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: So this faith of creating condition,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: being the gardener,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: tending the soil,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: removing impediments,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: and I want to go back to what it frees us.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: It frees us from...
• 50:12
  from the bondage of behavioralism it's yes yes yes we have more
• 50:18
  responsibility in
• 50:21
  in the way that we cultivate our relationship to our child but
• 50:26
  the the skill and
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: the punishment and reward all of that sculpting neuroticism
• 50:35
  and I don't mean that as an insult to people like I'm that
• 50:38
  person you know I've
• 50:39
  been that person we get to let go of it we get to let it go yes
• 50:45
  yeah yeah I
• 50:47
  remember even as a teacher having just a sort of natural
• 50:51
  aversion to it like yeah
• 50:53
  just an instinct that it wasn't the way like this can't be
• 50:58
  right this can't be
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: right it took me a long time to kind of
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: for my own thoughts and do the research and,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: and it's interesting too,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: this,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: this is what this chapter,
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: this,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: and this Hillman's soul's code is about as well,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: is this,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: this sort of misguided direction that we,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: that psychology has taken and the damage it's doing.
• 51:27
  And I love that he says,
• 51:28
  you know,
• 51:29
  to change how we see things takes falling in love.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's beautiful.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that beautiful?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is so true.
• 51:40
  And he's talking about it as a,
• 51:44
  like love,
• 51:45
  a shift of sight can be redemptive.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: And isn't this what we're talking about?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: Chaining what we see, seeing something different in the symptoms.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that,
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: Can I read this?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that okay?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: If symptoms,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: even if they show suffering,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: are not primarily regarded as something wrong or bad in a child,
• 52:08
  then we can release imagination from its focus on fixing a
• 52:11
  child's symptoms.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: Which is what you were just talking about.
• 52:19
  Doing something wrong to a child to get rid of the wrong that
• 52:22
  is the symptom.
• 52:26
  If the symptom is not bad,
• 52:27
  we do not have to use bad methods to make it go away.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's,
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: oh my gosh,
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: let's just put that,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: blow that up onto a giant banner and hang it in my living room.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Post it on social media.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's where our systems have come to.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it's like we feel like we need to standardize everybody, I think.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's, yes, we set out to shape them.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:02
  We do it to our children,
• 53:04
  but we also do it like in the culture war and the gender world.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: Man, if somebody colors outside the lines... It's threatening.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: The way that the mob mentality, the kind of paranoia...
• 53:29
  you know just the set it on fire destroy control shut down it's
• 53:41
  just sort of back
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: to the intelligence of life and you did a brilliant job of of
• 53:52
  showing yeah just how far away from that intelligence we have
• 53:56
  moved and the damage
• 53:59
  that it's doing yeah yeah yeah exactly to the acorn exactly
• 54:07
  right right right
• 54:11
  imagine like cutting open an acorn or like you know forcing a
• 54:17
  tomato to grow a
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: fruit like
• 54:21
  I just yeah there's so many you know there's so many ways that
• 54:26
  we just have lost
• 54:27
  our way with and it's hard to not see how the approach to
• 54:35
  gender the standard
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: approach is like
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: An extreme version of all of this.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, to get in there and shape nature.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: Mold it, cut it up.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Medicate it.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the challenge for us,
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: and when I say us,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you and I,
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean our listeners,
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: but also just
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: any of us who are in this cultural zeitgeist,
• 55:17
  more broadly but also with the phenomenon around gender and
• 55:26
  these pathways and medicalization,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: all of it,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: is to not just become the same thing and opposite.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not saying,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: it's not the same,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: both sides are not trying to use medicine against,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: children.
• 55:47
  It's not like that,
• 55:48
  but it's more like,
• 55:52
  how do we actually evolve from this?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: How is this an opportunity?
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what you do all the time.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: How is this an opportunity to actually evolve?
• 56:06
  meet these fuller potentials as humans instead of just becoming
• 56:12
  the mirror image of
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: that stuckness.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are we going to be behavioralist blank slaters on both sides?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to stay in the same paradigm that kind of got us here?
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: That us versus them.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:53
  Or that the solution to a child with gender distress is more behavioralism.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Ah, yeah, yeah.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: So it's about time for us to wrap it up.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: Excuse me.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is where we are.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_03: We do have to also look at our own maturity.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, for sure.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think that's when we feel compelled to
• 57:32
  use that model which is what most people know you know most
• 57:35
  people don't know
• 57:35
  anything else it's what we it's the it's the it's the structure
• 57:40
  of the culture we
• 57:43
  all grew up in you know so so i think kind of back to the
• 57:51
  question of is it working
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know and i think you can tell if it's working if it just feels wrong
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's just one more thing I want to go back to briefly.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know we're drawn into a close here.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: When you were asking kind of like, well, what do we do?
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: What's a simple, you know, and I was very frustrated.
• 58:19
  I didn't give anything simple,
• 58:20
  but you came up with something very helpful at that moment.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: There is something I want to say before we close.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that is,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: we'll talk about this more hopefully in our next episode,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:35
  because Newfeld gives us kind of a helpful idea of like the
• 58:38
  behavioral versus this
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: developmental approach.
• 58:42
  And one of the pieces he lays out in that that I want to say
• 58:44
  right now is the idea
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: that what he calls the context for treatment from the behavioral side,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: it's focused on the incident side.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: From the developmental side, it's focused on the relationship.
• 59:00
  So people can walk away from today's episode just with this in
• 59:05
  your heart.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: That the most important focus for me,
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: you used the word attachment to define it,
• 59:12
  and I just kind of wanted to kind of add or replace even
• 59:17
  relationship there because it's,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's just...
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: uh-huh.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe gives a more concrete tool in the immediate.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I appreciate that.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it is attached.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that it's not.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: When my child feels they want to be close to me.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: How do I cultivate the conditions for my child to want to be close to me?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:47
  Because that is the entire context for quote-unquote treatment
• 59:53
  of any problem.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: So my focus for this week, or two weeks, before we meet again,
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: How is that, how am I shaping that context?
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: How am I creating the conditions?
• 1:00:16
  How am I creating the conditions that for my child to want to
• 1:00:20
  be close to me?
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a great thing to put your focus on, right?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: When you're thinking about what you're seeing,
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: Notice that.
• 1:00:35
  Is what I'm doing bringing my child emotionally closer to me or
• 1:00:41
  pushing my child
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: away from me emotionally?
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: Are they resisting me?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: And what can I do there?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's what the child needs to mature.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_03: For maturity to unfold.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: For any stuckness,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: which we're going to talk about hopefully more next time,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: that may be in the system,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: the way to get it to move requires vulnerability.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: It requires trust.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: It requires work in the emotional realm.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the only way that's going to take place is in that safe relationship.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: And ideally we're the ones providing that safe relationship.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  And there can be others as well,
• 1:01:28
  but,
• 1:01:30
  but we're the,
• 1:01:32
  that primary forever.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: Forever.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:01:46
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:01:49
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:01:51
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• 1:01:53
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• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: As always,
• 1:01:59
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:02:02
  comments and hope you
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.