Latest / Saving the World From Bad Ideas / Bad Idea #51 "plenty of krill in the ocean" with Claire Christian

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Bad Idea #51 "plenty of krill in the ocean" with Claire Christian · Saving the World From Bad Ideas

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People thought, oh, there's a lot of krill out there and we
0:02
just got rid of all the whales, so there should be even more
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krill because the whales aren't eating it.
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So they thought as humans unfortunately do, they thought
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of it as an untapped, untapped source.
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I, I spoke with a professor once who called it the El Dorado
0:15
effect. Because it's untouched, people
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assume it must be a treasure house for the fishery to be
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economical. They concentrate in a small
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area. And so that's also where a lot
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of wildlife go because they've learned like this is where all
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the krill are. But when you do have ships going
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in and taking out, as you said, enough krill to to feed this
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many whales or feed that many or a certain number of Penguins,
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there can be a competition. And while the ships could go
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somewhere else and look for another aggregation of krill,
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the wildlife cannot. Fishing presence isn't always
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just about food. It's about politics and it's
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about power. Welcome to Saving the world from
0:56
bad ideas. I'm Mark Linus, and I've had a
0:59
few bad ideas in my time. I used to go out in the night
1:02
time to destroy GMO crops, and I also posed nuclear power.
1:06
But then when I looked at the science, I found I got it wrong.
1:08
Oops. I've learned the hard way that
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none of us are right all the time.
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So now I'm here to challenge the assumptions that we all too
1:14
often take for granted because the future depends on us getting
1:18
it right. Hello and welcome to another
1:21
episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas.
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The guest today that I'm delighted to welcome to the show
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is Claire Christian, who's executive director of ASOC or
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ASOC, I'm not sure how you pronounce it, Claire, which is
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the Antarctic and Southern Ocean Coalition.
1:37
Welcome. Thank you.
1:38
Thank you for having me. We say ASOC, but that's an
1:42
American pronunciation. So I think maybe it might differ
1:45
pronunciation might differ it. Might be like some tomato and
1:49
tomato. So maybe I should say ASOC if
1:50
you say ASOC. But anyway, tell us.
1:53
Tell us what ASOC actually the dozen stands for.
1:56
I mean, I said what it stands for, but tell tell me who the
1:58
members are and roughly what that what your mandate is.
2:00
So a Sox main mandate is the protection of Antarctica and its
2:04
surrounding Southern Ocean. And basically how we all got
2:08
started is a few several decades ago, there were discussions
2:12
about potentially creating mining regulations for
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Antarctica and NGOs around the world united together and said,
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no, it you know, Antarctica's the the least disturbed
2:23
continent on the planet. You don't want to see it have
2:26
experienced the same environmental destruction as
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other places have. This was in the 1970s and 80s.
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So there was a lot of, you know, there's a burgeoning
2:35
environmental movement and awareness of of the destruction
2:38
that human activities can cause. So all these Ng OS got together
2:41
to really mount a global campaign for the Environmental
2:44
Protection of Antarctica and to a certain extent, the awareness
2:47
of what was happening down there because there was a treaty
2:50
system governing the continent and surrounding ocean.
2:53
But those meetings were closed door, there were no NGO
2:58
observers. And so, you know, they really
3:00
worked to bring more transparency to the system and
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to really reorient the system away from exploitation to
3:06
protection. And since then a sock has
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tackled a number of issues including illegal fishing,
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seabird bycatch and now we're really focused on marine
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protected areas. We need to have a bad idea, of
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course, that you're saving the world from.
3:21
And perhaps, and this may be a bit too obvious, but perhaps the
3:26
bad idea is that we should exploit the Antarctic either.
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I mean, mining isn't going on, but there's still fishing going
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on. We can talk a bit about that.
3:35
And so it's not as if the Antarctic is fully protected and
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tell, tell us that. I mean, maybe we should, should,
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should scroll back in time and look at the history of human
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exploitation of the Antarctic, because obviously it goes back a
3:48
long way to industrial whaling and even appalling things like I
3:52
think they used to boil Penguins for their oil and extraordinary
3:58
damage that humans have already done to, to to these ecosystems
4:01
in the, in the Southern Ocean. So give us, give us a sense of
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what what, what has happened in the past already.
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Well, as you mentioned, there was heavy exploitation of whales
4:12
and seals and to some extent Penguins.
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And in fact the the case that you mentioned on Macquarie
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Island, I believe that was one of the first what we would call
4:20
a modern wildlife protection campaign.
4:23
Some of the early Antarctic explorers used the footage they
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had taken of Penguins to tell people, hey, aren't these
4:29
creatures amazing? Maybe we shouldn't be.
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They were literally throwing them into pots and boiling them
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for a few cents of oil. And so, you know, that was one
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of the first times that somebody said this is in the early 1900s,
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that somebody said, hey, you know, let's protect this this
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wildlife instead of just using it until it's gone.
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But yes, there was heavy whaling and sealing.
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Seals were wiped. Some species of seals were
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nearly wiped out. Some species of whales in the
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Southern Ocean were nearly wiped out.
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And then after that, you know, stopped.
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Then there was a lot of illegal fishing and then there was some
5:00
unregulated fishing as well before there was a treaty in
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place to manage that fishery. There's some fisheries that
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collapsed during the the 1970s in the Southern Ocean that still
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have not recovered to this day. And that's, you know, several
5:14
decades on. So basically while the
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Antarctic, you know, in relative terms is a lot less disturbed
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than other places, it has had a significant human presence and
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also it is more sensitive to disturbance than a lot of other
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places. Polar creatures both at the
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North and South Pole, as far as I understand, often tend to be
5:33
long lived and slow growing to be able to withstand the
5:37
conditions, the harsh conditions that they they face.
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So, you know, slight perturbations that might not
5:44
affect a species that's reproducing very quickly tend to
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effects them more. And so they really rely on
5:50
stable environments. You know, even even a footprint
5:53
in Antarctica can last for for decades because they're so, you
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know, that the environment is, this is harsh, but it's, you
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know, up until now in the era of climate change, it's been more
6:03
stable. So, yeah, I mean, these species
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are very sensitive. They they operate in a very
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unique ecosystem. Many of the ones that that we
6:11
think of the whales and the seals and the Penguins either
6:13
very dependent, many of the species are very dependent on
6:16
krill. Almost everything in the
6:17
Southern Ocean either eats krill or eats something that eats
6:20
krill. So you have a very, very unique
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ecosystem there where where there's a huge number of other
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species dependent on one forage level species.
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Yeah. We, we should talk in in some
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depth about krill because that's still being fished and
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potentially fished to an increasing extent if the krill
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fishing companies get their way. But tell me a bit more about the
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species that live in the Antarctic, where and where, how
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they're distributed, and also how they're recovering from
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early human impacts. Well, actually some of the
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recovery stories are, are really amazing and they just show you
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how how resilient nature can be if we leave it alone.
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Basically, whales have come back.
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Whales are recovering the most slowly, but humpback whales and
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fin whales have come back a lot. I think.
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I think there's not complete certainty about how much they've
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recovered, but it's, I think with humpbacks, it's, it's
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thought to be perhaps 80% where they were.
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And we're seeing huge numbers of whales in the Southern Ocean,
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you know, to a greater extent than we have even even I, I
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have, I went to Antarctica for the first time about a decade
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ago. And when I went last year, I was
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seeing just from, from, you know, a short voyage, I saw it
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tons more whales than I had seen the first time.
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And folks who go down there every year, for example, on
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tourist ships have have also noticed this difference as well.
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So that's an amazing success story.
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And it was really only made possible by the fact that
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whaling completely ceased. And seals as well, first seals
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have rebounded in some places. There's even a, a question of,
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you know, the first seals have there was vegetation and some of
8:04
the subantarctic areas. And the first seals have come
8:06
back in such numbers. They're starting to tear it up a
8:09
little bit. And there's some question, oh,
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do we preserve the vegetation or do we preserve, you know, or do
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we let the seals just do their thing?
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Which is almost a great problem to have because there was a time
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when, when we weren't sure that or when scientists weren't sure
8:23
that first seals would ever recover because they had been so
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heavily, heavily exploited. And you know, Penguins, Penguins
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were not as exploited as to to as great an extent, but I
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believe they've all recovered as well.
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But now they're all threatened. They have new threats to face.
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Many Penguins are are sensitive to climate change and some have
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already, some species have already been showing climate
8:45
related declines. Whales as well are sensitive
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mostly because, you know, their food source, krill is very
8:53
sensitive to climate and so they will feel that those effects.
8:56
But also in the interim, we've learned a lot about the Southern
8:59
Ocean ecosystems that we didn't know before.
9:02
For example, when countries first got together and signed a
9:05
treaty to regulate fishing in the Southern Ocean, which is
9:08
called the Convention for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine
9:11
Living Resources, a lot of the concern was about krill.
9:14
I mean, a scientist knew at the time that krill was really
9:17
central and they were concerned seeing seeing how some of these
9:19
other fisheries that I mentioned had collapsed.
9:22
They were concerned that if fishing, industrial fishing for
9:24
krill started, there would be a huge problem.
9:28
And what they did not know at the time, however, is that there
9:31
is a very complicated relationship between the animals
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that eat krill and krill itself. And we've learned in recent
9:38
years that more whales actually means more krill.
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So, you know, we're, we're learning now that even though,
9:45
you know, climate change might be affecting krill, there might
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be a, a benefit because whales have recovered and they
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fertilize the ocean with their feces basically.
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And that makes more food for krill and that supports krill
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population. So there's there's a very
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complex interplay between climate, between potential human
10:02
impacts and also between the the interactions in the ecosystem
10:06
between the species themselves. So we've learned that there's a
10:08
very delicate balance here. And while the krill population
10:12
is huge, we've learned that it possibly in in the areas where
10:16
whales are feeding, there might not be enough krill to support
10:19
all of the whales that are growing and coming back.
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So, you know, it's not very simple, I think.
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I think sometimes people like to think simple terms like, oh, we
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have this much curl so we can take this much of it, but
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there's a lot we still really don't understand about this
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ecosystem despite intensive study.
10:37
And before we get too deeply into any of these specifics, can
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you describe the geography of the region a bit?
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Because I'm not sure everyone knows what you mean when we talk
10:46
about the Southern Ocean even. And of course you've also got
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all these islands, You've got the South Georgia Islands, S
10:52
Shetlands, Elephant Islands. So describe the most important
10:57
bits of land, I suppose, and bits of coastline and the
10:59
Antarctic that that really matter here.
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Well, that's a pretty tough question.
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I don't know that I've ever actually thought of it in in
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what are the most important terms?
11:08
Certainly the Antarctic Peninsula is an area that is, is
11:12
quite rich in life. So is the raw sea, so is the
11:16
little sea, so is East Antarctica.
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You've got, you've got slightly, you know, different
11:21
characteristics of each of those areas, but really the, the, the
11:24
whole Southern Ocean is surrounding the continent is a
11:27
pretty rich area and has a lot of amazing things in it.
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One thing I would say that is that is maybe kind of hard to
11:35
categorize, but also important is that there are these
11:39
biodiverse hotspots on the sea floor as well.
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We call them vulnerable marine ecosystems.
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But if you look at them, they look just as vibrant and rich
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and even with some of the same colors as you would see in a
11:50
coral reef. And I think those often get
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forgotten because they're not as cute as the Penguins and and
11:56
everything. But there's lots of those
11:59
throughout the Southern Ocean as well.
12:01
So you've got yeah, back to your original question, which
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unfortunately I don't think I can answer because I don't know
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what the most important ones are.
12:09
You know, each of the each of the regions in Antarctica has
12:13
its own unique characteristics. There's important bird areas all
12:17
around the continent. There's important areas for
12:20
marine mammals and, and that includes seals and whales.
12:23
There are these underwater hotspots I mentioned.
12:26
So there's really, I would say there's really no area of
12:30
Antarctica besides the continent itself, most of which is a
12:33
desert. There's no area of the Southern
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Ocean that is, you know, not, not important in a way.
12:40
No, but there's all these different islands, aren't there?
12:42
There's and some of them are British, some of them are
12:44
French. Just tell us what their names
12:47
are roughly because we get we. They get referred to a lot and I
12:50
think people struggle to remember where they all are.
12:53
Yeah. So you've got the South Georgia
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Islands, you've got Macquarie and Herd, MacDonald Islands,
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you've also got Kirk, Whelan, Crozet and Prince Edward Island,
13:05
Bouve Islands. Those are some of them.
13:07
And islands generally tend to, you know, be little hotspots.
13:11
So there's definitely some additional concentrations of
13:15
wildlife and biodiversity values around those.
13:18
And tell us about the Antarctic Treaty system, where that came
13:20
from, because I think people have the understanding that the
13:23
Antarctic is is protected in some way and doesn't belong to
13:26
any, any single nation. But that was that wasn't
13:29
necessarily always going to be the case, was it?
13:31
No, and in fact, we're really lucky that that it didn't become
13:34
the the scene or a site of international discord because
13:38
Antarctic research was just ramping up in the in the time
13:41
following the World War 2. So there's there's a huge
13:46
possibility for conflict there because there was so much
13:48
geopolitical conflict during the Cold War between the US and and
13:53
other and the Soviets. But fortunately there was
13:56
something called the the International Geophysical Year
13:59
that was sort of an international science
14:01
collaboration effort. And what came out of that was
14:04
the Antarctic Treaty. This idea that, you know, this
14:07
is a very special place. It's a very important place to
14:09
do science. There's all this tension in the
14:11
world. Maybe we take the opportunity to
14:14
be proactive and sign a treaty, get every, get all of the
14:19
countries that are currently participating in Antarctic
14:22
science, which did include the US, Soviet, the and, and other
14:26
countries and get them to sign a treaty saying that we're going
14:29
to leave this area as a place for peaceful scientific
14:31
cooperation. And thankfully they all went for
14:35
it. There was a, it wasn't a huge
14:38
number of initial signatories, just 12, but they signed it and
14:42
then started, you know, implementing the treaty.
14:44
And then then in the 1970s, as I mentioned, they started talking
14:48
about mining and, and how to how they might do that because there
14:51
was this idea that, you know, Antarctica is, you know, it's
14:56
inevitable to mine in Antarctica or something like that.
14:58
So we need to regulate it. And that was a big challenge for
15:01
the treaty. But ultimately that mining,
15:04
those mining regulations failed to be adopted.
15:06
And instead they adopted an Environmental Protection treaty
15:10
in its place. And along the way, they also
15:12
signed an additional treaty as, as I mentioned earlier, for the
15:15
Southern Ocean, which didn't have any, any rules of its own.
15:18
So, so today we have this and and that treaty itself was very,
15:23
very proactive because it was agreed in 1980 and it included
15:28
ecosystem as a whole protection principles.
15:30
So it's a conservation treaty. It's not a regional fisheries
15:33
management organization and it has several principles of
15:37
conservation that any fishing must adhere to.
15:41
And those are to protect the ecosystem and those are very
15:44
precautionary as well. So for the for 1980, that was,
15:48
you know, a huge advance. So basically we've ended up with
15:51
a treaty system that was maybe just intended to keep folks from
15:55
fighting or, you know, bringing the Cold War to the Southern
15:59
Pole. But what we ended up with is a
16:01
treaty system that's very focused on protection first in
16:05
its principles and in its provisions.
16:07
So when you read these instruments, there's a very
16:10
strong focus on, again, precaution on looking at the
16:14
whole ecosystem and protecting ecological values.
16:17
So that's kind of a miracle, I think, to get so many countries
16:21
to sign up to that kind of agreement and to put nature
16:26
first. And this is the agreement that's
16:27
known by the acronym universally known as KAMLA, right?
16:31
Yeah. So that's the one that governs
16:33
the ocean. And then the Antarctic Treaty is
16:35
for not quite, but more for the land, although they can protect
16:41
coastal areas as well. And that's so, yeah, we have the
16:44
ATCM where the Anjari Treaty consultative meeting, that's
16:47
where they meet to make decisions.
16:48
And then we have Camelar. Camelar is the Commission for
16:51
the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources to get
16:54
the Right. Yes, that's right.
16:56
OK. And that's based in Hobart's in
16:59
Tasmania, correct? Based in Tasmania, yeah.
17:02
Yeah, and how many countries participate in that?
17:05
It's not the whole world, is it? No, it's 26 countries plus the
17:09
European Union. So that is a small, a smaller
17:12
subset. But that does include, you know,
17:16
the US, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, China, Russia, Korea,
17:22
Japan, You know, it covers a lot of the world's, I would say some
17:27
of the world's most biggest economies and biggest players on
17:30
the international scene. And is anyone still taking Wales
17:34
from the Southern Ocean? I know Japan is still doing
17:37
whaling. Norway, Iceland for some.
17:39
I have no idea why they do this. It seems to be uneconomic.
17:42
Nobody wants it. Maybe, maybe it's just because
17:44
they want to stick 2 fingers up to the international community.
17:47
I mean maybe you can tell me more, but that is this still
17:51
happening? No, Japan ended, they had a
17:54
scientific or what they call the scientific whaling program in
17:57
the Southern Ocean, but they ended that a few years ago and
18:00
now I believe they're only whaling in their EE zed.
18:05
Right. And same for Norway and Iceland,
18:06
presumably. So that's where they take the
18:07
minke whales and the fin whales. Well, we'll, we'll, we'll talk
18:10
about that at a different time. Tell me, though, about the
18:14
current fishing regulations that come under Camelot, because it's
18:17
not just krill. And we should talk about krill
18:19
in more detail because it's so important.
18:21
But there's things like Patagonian tooth fish and how
18:25
important are these industries and why are they permitted at
18:28
all? It does seem strange to me that
18:30
anyone's allowed to go to go and fishing in this, you know,
18:33
incredibly fragile and important ecosystem.
18:36
Yes. So you've got the two main
18:38
fisheries are for tooth fish. They're 2A species of tooth
18:40
fish. They're a fish, but they're
18:42
very, they're very similar. They're sold basically as the
18:44
same thing. They're often called Chilean sea
18:47
bass, but actually they're official names are Antarctic
18:50
tooth fish and Patagonian tooth fish.
18:52
And then you also have krill. There's also a smaller fishery
18:56
for something called ice fish, but it's that one you won't hear
18:59
about as much. And yeah, these are these are
19:03
not subsistence fisheries. If anyone watching this has ever
19:08
bought Chilean sea bass, they've probably paid a good amount of
19:10
money for it. Krill is used for nutritional
19:14
supplements, for omega-3 nutritional supplements, and
19:17
mostly feed for farmed fish, namely salmon.
19:21
So yeah, these are these are very specialized fisheries.
19:24
Again, they're not for sort of every like the kind of fisheries
19:27
that support small communities or local communities, because
19:31
going to the Antarctic is very expensive and it is very
19:36
difficult to fish there. So there's, there's not a huge
19:40
amount of fishing going on compared to many other areas.
19:45
But yeah, these these fisheries, the Patagonian tooth fish and
19:48
and Antarctic tooth fish fisheries in particular were
19:51
subject to a lot of illegal fishing at one point.
19:54
But fortunately camel are got in place a series of regulations
19:59
now that has reduced that to almost nothing, although it does
20:03
still exist in pockets here and there.
20:06
And then krill is has sort of been steadily growing over the
20:10
past few years and now there's a tremendous interest in that
20:13
fishery. Because there is a growing
20:16
market for nutritional supplements for that farm fish
20:20
food. So, yeah, you know, again, I
20:21
think a lot of people may not think of Antarctica as a place
20:24
where where large scale fishing is taking place, but there there
20:27
is a growing interest in it. And, you know, honestly, part of
20:30
that is because we've depleted so many fisheries elsewhere.
20:34
And I think some countries are looking to, you know, Antarctica
20:38
as one of the the least disturbed places that they could
20:41
go next. Well, I should put my cards on
20:43
the table here. I'm completely against the krill
20:46
fishery in totality. We've been running a campaign
20:50
and we plan it to to try to shut it down.
20:53
I've written reports about the impacts of the krill fishery on
20:57
on on Antarctic species and it was something like 800 whales
21:02
that could be fed from the amount of cool they're taking
21:04
for a whole season, the entire daily Penguin shake population 4
21:09
times over for the season. So it's not as if it's having no
21:12
impact at all. And the, the fishery, as you
21:16
say, is going into Amiga 3 supplements which go in, which
21:21
are sold in health food shops and for which there are easy
21:26
alternatives now produce vegan ones produced from algae, which
21:29
are price competitive and basically chemically the same
21:31
stuff. As you say, there's fish meal as
21:35
well, which is going to fish farming and also even for pet
21:37
food. But so tell tell me more about
21:40
how krill fishing even even got started, because it seems, it
21:44
seems extraordinarily, that this is allowed to go on.
21:47
Well, originally it was done by the Soviets and I think, I think
21:51
maybe some of that was just that they were trying to get food
21:55
anywhere they could. They did, they did directly
21:57
consume it. Very few humans directly consume
22:00
krill today. I think there's a small amount
22:03
of the catch that does go to direct consumption.
22:06
But at the time, I think they were just trying to, you know,
22:10
people thought, oh, there's a lot of krill out there and we
22:12
just got rid of all the whales, so there should be even more
22:14
krill because the whales are needing it.
22:16
So they thought, you know, as humans unfortunately do I, they
22:22
thought of it as an untapped, untapped source.
22:25
I, I spoke with the professor once who called it the El Dorado
22:28
effect. So he was, he was mainly talking
22:30
about people who, who kind of envision Antarctica as a place
22:33
for mining and oil and gas development.
22:35
But he was saying because it's untouched, people assume it must
22:38
be a treasure house. And I think people looked at the
22:41
Southern Ocean and, and the fisheries or the fish and, and
22:44
other species there cuz Kriller and fish their crustacean in the
22:48
same way. It's like, well, we haven't
22:50
fished it yet. So there must be tons of it.
22:52
And it must be, you know, it must be the next, the next
22:55
source of gold in a sense. So that eventually stopped or or
23:02
slowed down after the signing of the treaty, the Camelot
23:05
community and then it sort of picked back up.
23:09
There was some some fishing from Japan and then Japan has now
23:13
dropped out. But you know, within the past
23:16
couple of decades, Norway started fishing more for krill
23:20
and other countries as well in small amounts.
23:23
And then China got interested. And China has has made it clear
23:27
that they're very interested in expanding their krill catch.
23:30
And that has has meant that the fishery, which was kind of
23:34
spotting along at a certain level for a number of years, all
23:37
of a sudden the the catch went up and there was in in fact in
23:43
pressure to increase the current catch limits.
23:45
So that has been growing for a number of years now and more
23:49
ships have been coming online that can take more krill using
23:54
the system called continuous pumping, where they just kind of
23:58
suck it out of the ocean more rapidly than they could with
24:00
traditional methods. So there's just, I think, I
24:03
think, I think part of it is the sense that Antarctica is
24:08
untapped and untapped resource and untapped source of wealth.
24:11
And I think part of it is also countries wanting to secure
24:15
access should they need it in the future.
24:18
And, and a lot of fishing from, from what I've seen in my
24:20
career, a lot of times fishing presence isn't always just about
24:24
food. It's about politics and it's
24:26
about power. And there's a sense that, you
24:29
know, being involved in a fishery gives you more of a
24:32
stake over decisions or more of a say in decisions in a certain
24:37
area. And yeah, so I think there's a
24:39
there's a lot of factors at play here.
24:41
And you know, I think, I think also, you know, I just want, I
24:47
just do want to emphasize that the issue for for our
24:49
organization has never been, you know, the idea that the krill
24:52
fishery would or the krill, the krill population would collapse.
24:56
Krill is has the largest biomass of any animal on Earth or they
25:00
so they think even more than you, even more than humans.
25:04
But you know the the fishery, for the fishery to be
25:06
economical, they concentrate in a small area.
25:10
So you know, it's not really economical.
25:12
You can't just go out into the ocean and just drop your net and
25:15
get all of those many krill. They tend to krill tend to
25:17
congregate in some very dense concentrations in a few small
25:22
areas of the Southern Ocean. And so that's also where a lot
25:26
of wildlife go because they've learned like this is where all
25:28
the krill are. So when you do have ships going
25:31
in and taking out, as you said, enough krill to to feed this
25:35
many whales or feed that many or a certain number of Penguins,
25:39
there can be a competition. And while the ships could go
25:43
somewhere else and look for another aggregation of krill,
25:47
the wildlife cannot more limitations on where they can
25:50
go, especially Penguins and and seals, which are, you know,
25:53
foraging over. They need to, they need to go
25:55
back after a certain time to be able to feed their offspring
25:59
during the breeding season. So you've got quite a conflict
26:02
there. I mean, on the one hand, yes,
26:03
there are a lot of krill out there.
26:04
On the other hand, the fishing for them only seems to be
26:08
worthwhile to the countries that want to fish if they do it in a
26:11
very tight area where there is going to be a lot of overlap
26:14
with animals. Yeah, and it's a very direct
26:17
conflict. There were some quite
26:19
extraordinary scenes in David Attenborough's Ocean movie which
26:24
showed these krill trawlers literally trawling right through
26:29
the middle of aggregations of fin whales and others who were
26:32
trying to feed and and literally eating their lunch from from
26:36
from the same, same exact location.
26:39
And what's even more extraordinary is that this
26:41
fishery is certified as sustainable by the Marine
26:44
Stewardship Council, which is the body which is supposedly in
26:49
charge of telling consumers which fish products are
26:52
sustainable and which aren't. I know that that process has
26:57
been opened again and that the MSC is currently reconsidering
27:01
whether whether to recertify the fishery.
27:03
What was a stock's position on that?
27:05
A stock has actually filed an objection to the proposed
27:08
recertification of the fishery. We do not believe that the the
27:14
fishery meets the standards. We we do not believe that in
27:18
considering the evidence about the fishery and its management,
27:21
the fishery does meet, you know that that MSC standard.
27:26
But a Full disclosure, I've also in the past written papers that
27:29
were very critical of MSC. So I personally, I'm somewhat
27:33
critical of the the scheme for certifying fish as a whole.
27:38
But yeah, I think, I think our main concerns were that the
27:42
concentrated nature of the fishery was not taken into
27:44
account sufficiently. There's a lot of uncertainty
27:47
about the ecosystem impacts. And then also the way that
27:50
Camelot is managing the fishery is not sufficient.
27:53
A key management measure expired that distributed the catch that
27:56
that helped it prevent like helped prevent some of that
28:00
concentration and that expired. And Camel R is a consensus based
28:04
body and so all countries have to agree on adopting new
28:08
measures and they could not adopt A new measure to replace
28:10
it. And we see that, you know, that
28:13
is, you know, the certification is for a particular, you know,
28:17
it's for particular companies, but the certification is based
28:20
on what, how the fishery is managed as a whole.
28:23
And we do not feel that tamelar is, is managing the fishery the
28:26
way that it needs to right now. And we therefore do not think
28:31
that you can say that this is a good, good, well managed
28:36
fishery. And in that sense it doesn't
28:38
meet what MSC says they want to do, which is only certify
28:41
fisheries that are using best practice.
28:44
Yeah, and something I just found out because I was looking into
28:46
the use of krill and aquaculture for fish feed and salmon farms
28:50
and so on. And there's a sustainability
28:54
body there too called the Aqua Aquaculture Stewardship Council.
28:58
And they essentially say, well, if the MSC certifies this source
29:03
of fish food, then that's good enough for us.
29:05
And so they don't look at it again.
29:06
And so you've got the this, this MSC decision actually matters
29:11
quite a lot because people who are eating farm salmon, eating
29:15
second hand krill essentially, and there's nothing they can do
29:17
about it. Right.
29:18
And that I think is, is part of the reason that a sock is
29:21
concerned about the the MSC certification generally.
29:25
You know, obviously our main focus is on the governance of
29:28
the whole fishery and this is, you know just a a consumer label
29:32
essentially. But we are concerned about the
29:34
message that that label sends. And you know, we do believe that
29:39
there are serious problems that that camel are needs to address
29:42
with the management of the fishery.
29:44
And you know, in a in a way, if, if there's, if there's this
29:48
message out there that the fishery is sustainable and it's
29:51
the best of the best, then that takes the pressure off of camel
29:55
are to feel like, hey, you know, we need to do something about
29:58
this. We said we were going to do
29:59
these things and we haven't done them and we need to actually do
30:02
what we said we would do. And namely, that means spreading
30:05
out the catch into smaller units, and so you're prohibiting
30:10
anybody from taking too much from a constrained area.
30:14
And another element of greenwashing apart from the MSC
30:17
process is the krill companies have their own sustainability
30:22
initiative, don't they, called the Association for Responsible
30:25
Krill Fishing or some some such thing.
30:28
How seriously do you think we should take that?
30:30
Well, one thing I would say about the fishing industry that
30:33
operates in the Southern Ocean, both the Tooth Fish Industry
30:37
Association and the Krill Industry Association is that,
30:40
you know, they do come to the table willing to be constructive
30:43
and willing to to speak. And from what I understand from
30:46
other NGO colleagues, they don't always have that opportunity to,
30:50
to talk to the industry and, and reach agreement.
30:53
So, you know, the members of Arc, not ARC as a whole, but
30:56
some of the the companies that are members of Arc have come out
30:59
and said they support the establishment of an MPA in the
31:03
same region where the krill fishery operates.
31:06
Obviously it's not, it wouldn't cover the whole region, but, and
31:09
there would still be fishing allowed under the proposed MPA.
31:12
But they are saying they support the adoption of that MPA.
31:15
And I think that's good that, you know, there's very clear
31:18
evidence that no take MP as are extremely effective and more
31:22
effective than other tools for, for protecting marine
31:26
ecosystems. And I'm really glad that
31:28
industry has agreed with that. You know, so I think yes, the
31:35
crow fishery is at the crow fishery.
31:37
Any fishery, you know, has a potential to impact an
31:40
ecosystem. But you know, if if industry is
31:43
going to be at these meetings just as we are, I do want them
31:46
to be supportive of Kamelar's mission.
31:49
And Kamelar's mission is conservation first.
31:51
So, you know, I think, I think it's, you know, I, I understand
31:57
what you're saying, you know, like about, about the, the
32:01
potential greenwashing. But I think on the other hand,
32:05
you know, we do want to be able to have that, that dialogue
32:08
rather than just butting heads all the time.
32:11
So. No, that's fine.
32:13
And, and of course there's space for nuance in, in this
32:16
discussion as, as, as in any but what, what's specifically a
32:21
stocks position on curling? You're not calling for the
32:23
closure of the fishery in totality.
32:25
What what's, what's your focus in terms of actually trying to
32:27
protect and defend these ecosystems?
32:29
So our main focus is getting the an MPA adopted in the region and
32:34
the proposed. MPA, by the way, for people who
32:36
don't know, is a marine protected area.
32:38
So that's a area where fishing is not permitted.
32:41
I mean, there's no one definition of Mpas that is
32:44
universally accepted. There's some MP AS, some MP as
32:48
have zoning, some MP as don't allow any fishing at all, some
32:51
MP as allow some. The proposed MPA submitted to
32:54
Camelot by Argentina and Chile does have very large no take
32:58
areas. So most of it would be these
33:01
zones where no fishing is allowed.
33:03
There would also be some zones where there are seasonal
33:05
restrictions but not year round restrictions on fishing and that
33:09
is what we feel needs to be implemented in this very
33:13
sensitive and and rapidly changing region.
33:16
The Antarctic Peninsula is one of the fastest warming areas on
33:19
the planet. I'm really keen actually to to
33:22
dig into the industry side of things a bit more because the
33:25
the Norwegian companies who are fishing for krill that's AKA is
33:29
Ako Akka Biomarine, AKA krill do make a lot of noise about how
33:34
sustainable they are. And they've even partnered with
33:36
the MSC and the and King Charles sustainable markets initiative
33:42
to ostensibly support this marine protected area.
33:46
And yet the Norwegian government, apparently at the
33:48
last Camelot meeting, and you'll know more about this than I I
33:50
do, was, was proposing so so apparently proposing to double
33:54
the krill catch. So I suspect they're saying one
33:57
thing in public and quite another thing in private.
34:00
Yes. And to go back to your earlier
34:02
question, no, we we have a sock has not called for the closure
34:05
of the fishery. But what we are calling for in
34:07
addition to the MPA is that institution of new management
34:11
measures that would spread out the catch between smaller areas.
34:15
And that has been a process that scientists have been working on
34:19
for a long time, how to distribute that catch and make
34:22
sure that there isn't overlap with predators, with whales,
34:26
with seals, with Penguins. So there's been a lot of work
34:28
done to manage the krill fishery in a more precautionary way
34:32
using the latest science so that we know about krill and about
34:35
the animals that feed on them. And so last year at Camelar
34:39
there was a big discussion about the MPA and about those new
34:42
krill fishery management measures.
34:44
And what happened was at the end there was a proposal that would
34:49
have increased the krill catch but did not include any on an
34:52
interim basis, but did not include any additional marine
34:55
protection. And a Sox position is that you
34:59
know they need to go together and you cannot be increasing the
35:03
curl catch without additional marine protected areas in place.
35:07
You'd, you'd, you'd entertain that trade off, Would you?
35:09
You'd, you'd if you had the choice, would you allow them to
35:12
increase the curl catch? I mean, you're not in charge,
35:14
but you know, if you is that, is that a deal that you'd take?
35:18
Well, the benefit is that the krill catch would be much less
35:22
concentrated than it is now. So on the whole, yes, the catch
35:25
limit could be greater, but it would be distributed away from
35:29
some of the important areas where we believe there's too
35:32
much catch occurring under the current rules.
35:34
So yes, that is that is somewhat of a trade off, but we believe
35:37
that it would be better managed. The impacts on the ecosystem
35:41
would be better monitored there or what we think should be in
35:44
place. There would be more requirements
35:45
for scientific evidence of whether there is an impact or
35:49
not. And right now, now, to be
35:51
honest, there's a lot, there's a lot of uncertainty that we just
35:53
don't know about whether fishing is impacting some of these
35:57
species. So we do believe that a new
35:59
system, even though it might have greater catch, it would be
36:03
managed more appropriately and more likely to have less of an
36:07
effect than the current overly concentrated fishery.
36:10
Yeah, because we don't actually know that much from what I've
36:13
seen about how much crawl is actually out there in that a lot
36:17
of the big surveys are quite old now.
36:20
It's it's quite difficult to calculate.
36:22
The industry will say they're allowed to take 620,000 tonnes,
36:26
right? And they'll say, oh, that's less
36:27
than 1% of the total biomass, but that's like around the whole
36:30
of Antarctica. So, you know, they might be
36:33
taking quite as, as you say, a quite a significant proportion
36:36
of the from the places that actually matter where, where
36:39
where the other species are also trying to feed.
36:41
Yeah, definitely. It's again, it's such a
36:43
complicated interplay that yes, even if it is less than 1% of
36:47
the whole circumpolar krill catch, there's a lot we don't
36:51
know about how much krill is in that area, where they're taking
36:54
it from. And then how many whales are
36:56
there? How many seals are there?
36:57
How many Penguins are there? And even how much krill is
37:00
there? Because Kriller are, you know,
37:02
kind of a a drifting species. They don't stay in one place all
37:05
the time. So you know, more krill might be
37:08
coming in to a certain place at a certain time.
37:10
And maybe that's maybe the catch that's being taken there is OK.
37:14
But then maybe, and there's enough for everybody, but maybe
37:17
there isn't. And there's even some evidence
37:20
from some researchers who have, who have looked at what, who
37:23
have reconstructed what the population of whales was before
37:27
whaling and looked at the amount of krill that they think we have
37:30
now. And they've said, hey, there's
37:31
not enough. So again, there's something,
37:35
there's a lot going on in that ecosystem.
37:36
And as I mentioned before, maybe that's because there is this
37:39
relationship between krill and whales.
37:41
And, you know, eventually there will be, you know, if eventually
37:45
if you have more whales, you'll have more krill.
37:47
But if, if we take all the krill and the whales don't reproduce,
37:51
then, you know, there's, so it's, it's complicated.
37:55
And I, I mean, it is, it does present a huge challenge.
37:59
But you know, from a Sox perspective, the Camelar
38:02
convention, this camelar treaty is focused on precaution.
38:06
So it's ecosystem first, you know, fishing 2nd.
38:10
And we do think that that there is a way to be precautionary and
38:15
make sure that make sure that we have the information we need to
38:19
understand whether this fishery is having an impact.
38:21
And if it is having an impact, then camel are would need to
38:24
adjust accordingly. And that is exactly what camel
38:26
are supposed to do. And that is exactly what all
38:29
these countries said they would do when they signed the treaty.
38:32
But unfortunately that has not happened yet.
38:35
And the kind of bad guys, if I can say that in Camelot, tend to
38:40
be the Russians and the Chinese. The Norwegians pretend to be
38:44
good guys, but they're probably not.
38:46
How does the sort of geopolitics of all these different nations
38:49
stack up in Kamlo? And are we?
38:52
It's also, doesn't it go on behind closed doors?
38:54
It's not like there's a live feed from the meetings where we
38:57
in the general public can actually can actually view
38:59
what's happening, right? No.
39:00
And even ASAC, although we are allowed to attend the meetings,
39:04
we as observers, obviously we can't participate in the
39:07
decision making. But even we are somewhat
39:10
constrained. There's certain things that we
39:13
can't share publicly that go on during the meetings.
39:16
We can't talk about what's happening while the meetings are
39:18
going on. We have to wait till the very
39:20
end to to tell people what happened or what's being
39:23
discussed. So, yeah, I think Camel are has
39:26
a long way to go in terms of transparency.
39:29
You know, there is a public report that's released later,
39:31
but that's just a a snapshot of discussions.
39:33
It's not the full discussion and often it's, you know, summarized
39:38
and somewhat, you know, condensed so you don't get a
39:41
full flavor of of what folks are saying.
39:44
But what you can see from the the public reports is that
39:48
Russia and China have consistently over the years said
39:51
that they need more science for MP as but they don't seem to
39:55
need more science to go ahead with expanding Crail fishing.
39:59
And a Sox view is that the burden of proof is on those who
40:03
wish to exploit, not those who wish to conserve because
40:06
conservation is the objective of camelar.
40:10
So I think we're at a kind of unfortunate place now where
40:14
there's differing interpretations of what
40:16
conservation means and. There's a majority that thinks
40:19
it means MP as and stricter krill fishery management
40:22
measures. And there's a minority that
40:25
thinks, you know, brain protection should come second to
40:28
expanding fishing. And I don't think that's the
40:31
right the right way to approach it.
40:33
And because it's consensus Sunny, you need one back to the
40:37
same low to block consensus and then you don't get any of these
40:40
NPA proposals adopted, which in fact has been the case now for
40:43
many years, right? Yes.
40:45
And that is, that is very unfortunate.
40:46
I mean, in one sense, I think consensus, when you get
40:49
consensus, it's great because nobody can complain later or
40:54
nobody should be complaining later because they've all
40:56
agreed. But at the same time, yes, we,
40:59
we've had MPA proposals on the table for a number of years.
41:02
These have been worked on extensively by the countries
41:05
that have proposed them. Huge amounts of science and
41:09
research have gone into them. I, I would say far more science
41:11
than this has gone into the calculations for crawl catch
41:15
limits or toothfish catch limits.
41:16
Honestly, you know, the Antarctic Peninsula MPA has over
41:20
140 data layers that were used to analyze and identify the
41:24
areas for protection. So these are huge scientific
41:27
undertakings. And you know, even though camel
41:29
are hasn't adopted anything, I don't want to make it sound like
41:32
the Camel are as a whole is not doing its job because there are
41:37
a lot of really dedicated representatives of the countries
41:40
in Camel are that are working very hard to make sure that
41:43
camel are fulfills its mission of protecting the Southern
41:46
Ocean. And they've put tremendous
41:48
effort into trying to manage the crow fishery better into trying
41:52
to get MPA's adopted. So it is a shame in the sense
41:55
that you know, there is there isn't consensus on this because
41:59
we're seeing around the world, you know, we've just the high
42:02
seas treaty has entered into force, which has a huge
42:04
component related to MPA's. We're seeing this growing
42:07
momentum for better stewardship of of our activities in the
42:11
ocean. And Camel are used to be in the
42:14
lead on that. You know, Camel are proposed a
42:17
representative system of MP as back in 2012, back when the BB
42:20
and J treaty was just a twinkle in somebody's eye.
42:23
And now Camelot has fallen behind.
42:26
They haven't actually, sorry, 2009, they haven't fulfilled
42:29
that commitment and they're struggling to get consensus on
42:33
it to this day. So I think that's that's really
42:36
unfortunate because you know, there's a huge opportunity here
42:41
to do something that is really revolutionary in terms of the
42:44
ocean. You talked about bad ideas.
42:46
I think the bad idea is that we want to get rid of is that we
42:51
should is that the burden of proof isn't on us.
42:54
I think the burden of proof should always be on us to prove
42:56
that our activities aren't harmful before we do them.
42:59
And I think, you know, if camel are can't do this, they're
43:02
effectively shifting the burden of proof to the ecosystem.
43:04
Like the ecosystem has to show harm.
43:07
We have to see harm from our activities in the ecosystem
43:09
before we do something theoretically, and I think
43:13
that's the really the wrong way to protect our natural
43:16
environment, especially an area as amazing as the Southern
43:20
Ocean. I've got to think away for that
43:22
bad idea to fit on a slide. It's sort of sort of the balance
43:26
of burden of precaution, no burden of proof.
43:30
I don't know. Yeah, nature put nature first.
43:33
Put nature first is the OR putting.
43:35
Putting humans ahead of nature, I think, is the bad idea.
43:38
In the Antarctic, OK, that's been an MPA agreed right in in
43:42
the Ross Sea. There was a large, yeah, large
43:45
MPA was agreed in the Ross Sea. And then prior to that there was
43:48
an MPA agreed around the South working islands as well.
43:51
Oh, I forgot to mention the South work news when we talked
43:53
about islands. But yeah, so there's two MPA's
43:56
and those are, those are both amazing.
43:59
But it seems like progress stalled after, after the Ross
44:02
Sea. We haven't.
44:04
That was 2016 and we're still trying to get additional MPA's
44:07
adopted. But do we know how effective
44:09
they've been? Well, the Rossi MPA is actually
44:12
coming up for a scientific review very soon and it seems
44:17
from some preliminary evidence that they have been, but I
44:19
haven't seen the the full scientific synthesis yet.
44:23
Oh, there was 1 great thing. We don't know a lot about
44:27
Antarctic tooth fish of the chili sea bass.
44:30
There's a lot about their life that is a mystery.
44:32
But one of the, there have been some discoveries made about
44:36
their life cycle since the MPA was adopted.
44:38
And it turns out that for some of those early life cycle, early
44:42
life stages, the MPA is protecting them.
44:44
So in that sense, yes, we we have an idea that the areas that
44:48
we thought were the important for the Ross Sea marine
44:51
ecosystem are the ones that actually are.
44:53
I love the way we have a whole industry fishing for species of
44:56
fish that we don't even know anything about this life cycle.
44:59
I mean that's just, that's just so typically human, isn't it?
45:02
Just to go out there and just take as many of this of this 4
45:05
fish, I'll probably even understand how they reproduce.
45:08
Yeah, specifically about two fish eggs they hadn't in the raw
45:11
sea there. There was some, there was a lot
45:14
of uncertainty about, you know, where they were, where they were
45:17
laying eggs and where they were, you know, going after they
45:20
hatched and things like that. So.
45:22
Yeah. And.
45:23
On top of all this, well, and on top of all this, you've got the
45:26
impact of climate change of course.
45:27
And krill I think depend on CIS at a certain stage in their
45:32
reproductive cycle. CIS is rapidly diminishing all
45:35
around the Antarctic now, which wasn't the case a decade or two
45:37
ago. So do you think that should
45:41
affect how Camelara considers the the sustainability of the
45:47
fishery? Absolutely.
45:48
And yeah, scientists are already looking at, you know, trying to
45:52
to predict and analyze how climate, how changes in the
45:56
climate are going to affect the krill fishery based on what we
45:58
know about krill currently. And there are some predictions
46:01
that krill populations are going to move from the area where they
46:04
are to areas that are colder. And so, yeah, there's a lot.
46:07
It is a lot of unpredictability. I mean, sea ice itself is very
46:10
unpredictable. You know, there might be a
46:12
downward trend, but then sometimes there will be a year
46:14
when there's more and then sometimes there's a year when
46:16
it's less. So it's a very, in that sense,
46:19
Antarctica is a very, can be a very dynamic place.
46:23
Are you? Yeah.
46:24
Well, just to finish up you've, you've been there a few times I
46:27
I presume? Yes.
46:28
Just, I mean, we've seen, we've all seen Antarctica on TV, but
46:33
what's it like to actually see it for real?
46:35
I think the main thing I took away from it was just what would
46:39
the rest of the world be like if we behaved like we're supposed
46:43
to behave in Antarctica? So for just for a background,
46:46
when I was on most of my trips down there, I have been an
46:50
observer for the Antarctic Tourism Association.
46:54
And basically they have rules for their members and they send
46:57
observers out to make sure they're they're members, their
47:00
tourist ships are following those rules.
47:02
And so, you know, I was paying very close attention to how the
47:05
guides, you know, talk to passengers about how to behave.
47:09
And, you know, they they're very thorough.
47:11
They go over all these rules. They say you have to stay this
47:14
far back from Penguins. Penguins like to use the same
47:17
paths as each other to go from their nest to the ocean.
47:21
They're called Penguin highways. And they'll tell you don't stand
47:24
on a Penguin highway, don't stand near a Penguin highway.
47:26
And I, you know, I was awed by the wildlife, of course.
47:30
I mean, I think I could watch Penguins all day without getting
47:32
bored. They're just such funny little
47:35
funny little guys. But the thing I, I really
47:38
thought it was, you know, what if, what if I took this back to,
47:42
you know, where I live? Like, what if I never crossed
47:46
the path of a squirrel? What if I like, you know,
47:49
basically instead of thinking like, how, you know, what do I
47:53
want to do? Think about what does nature
47:54
need? And how can I make sure that I
47:57
don't get in the way of that? And I think that's a really
47:59
powerful message because you see Antarctica, you see how how the
48:04
wildlife really thrived down there.
48:06
You see how vibrant it is, even though it's frozen and cold.
48:09
And it's just a great lesson in, you know, when we let nature,
48:12
when we put nature first as humans, it, it thrives and we
48:16
benefit as well. You know, we humans can't live
48:20
without nature. Nature can live without us.
48:21
So if we let nature thrive and do its thing and try to stay out
48:24
of its way, I think we'll all be better off.
48:27
So that was that was something I really took away from, from my
48:29
visits to Antarctica. It's just, you know, if we, if
48:33
we took this approach everywhere, how much better off
48:35
would we be as a society? And Penguins are such
48:39
charismatic animals, aren't they?
48:41
My parents obsessed with Penguins.
48:43
They have a stuffed Penguin that they take photos off in various
48:45
locations around the world. Do you have a favorite Penguin
48:49
species? Well, I mean, I do love the
48:53
Emperor. They're just beautiful with that
48:56
little spot of orange, and they're so tall and majestic.
49:00
But you know, as much as I do love Penguins, I have to say one
49:04
of my missions in life is to promote Antarcticas and
49:07
vertebrates as well, which are not as charismatic and they're
49:10
not as cute. And you, you know, you don't
49:12
want to cuddle them, although you don't want to cuddle
49:14
Penguins either because Penguin researchers have told me their
49:17
beaks will destroy you if you're not so.
49:22
But even it even in the sense of looking cuddly.
49:24
Invertebrates don't look cuddly, but they're really cool.
49:27
There's a 50 arm starfish in Antarctica that it holds onto a
49:31
rock with some of its arms and then fishes for krill out of the
49:34
water with the other one. So it's like a predatory
49:36
starfish. You know, there's a colossal
49:38
squid with eyes the size of dinner plate.
49:41
There are sea. There are these huge sea
49:43
spiders, which aren't really spiders but just look like
49:45
spiders. There's glass sponges that can
49:48
live for 500 years. I mean, this is an incredible
49:51
environment here. And even though there's a lot of
49:53
scientists working down there and producing amazing research,
49:56
there's still a lot we don't know about it.
49:58
And I think that's valuable for humans as well.
50:01
You know, preserving our our ability to be amazed by the
50:04
natural world isn't, it's just as important as making money,
50:08
maybe more important. So, you know, I think, I think
50:10
the fact that we have this one chance or a last chance in
50:14
Antarctica to get it right and not exploit it and destroy it
50:18
the way we've exploited and destroyed so much of the rest of
50:20
the planet is, is a really amazing thing.
50:23
And is there anything you'd ask people to do?
50:26
Because obviously as individuals we're not directly involved in
50:29
any of these meetings, but is there anything that people can
50:31
do as as voters, as consumers to, to do their bit to defend
50:36
the entire team? That's always a tough question
50:39
because you know this, as you mentioned, this system is not
50:42
very transparent and it's it's not very necessarily easy to
50:47
influence. It's not a democracy, but I
50:49
think what folks indefinitely do is just spread the word about
50:54
Antarctica and how important it is to protect it, how important
50:57
it is to make sure that we are having a light impact there,
51:02
including, you know, making sure that krill is managed
51:05
appropriately and including the fact that we need to get marine
51:09
protected areas established in Antarctica.
51:11
So I think, you know, you know, I think those are really
51:14
important messages to send and people, you know, policy makers
51:19
do listen. So if there's a lot of noise
51:21
about Antarctica, they will pay attention to it more.
51:24
So that's what I would, I would recommend.
51:27
Unfortunately, I can't give people a way to like adopt A
51:29
Penguin or anything like that because that's not possible.
51:32
But, you know, making sure that Antarctica gets the protections
51:36
it needs and telling your leaders in your country that you
51:39
want them to do that and make it a priority is important,
51:42
especially when there's a lot going on in the world and it's
51:45
easy to forget about that cold, frozen place at the bottom of
51:48
the world. Well, I've never been.
51:49
I've only seen it on TV. So I'm pretty jealous of people
51:53
like you who've been down there multiple times and seen some of
51:56
these species in reality. But for now, I just wanted to
51:59
say thank you for all the work that you do at ASOC and thank
52:02
you for helping save the world from bad ideas.
52:04
Well, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about
52:08
why we should all care about Antarctica, because I think it
52:10
belongs to everyone. So we all have a stake in its
52:13
future. Brilliant.
52:15
Thank you very much. Thanks so much for listening to
52:20
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