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What’s NATO All About? · Stuff You Should Know

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I
0:04
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
0:13
Speaker 1: and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here. And
0:16
Speaker 1: this is stuff you should know. The Triple Alliance coming
0:21
Speaker 1: at you, but not overstepping our bouts, being very delicate.
0:25
Speaker 1: Here correct because they tell you the Triple Alliance. Yeah,
0:32
Speaker 1: I think that was actually that the proper name for
0:35
Speaker 1: the Aztecs. Oh yeah, m hm, alright, no, but I
0:41
Speaker 1: like that. You know, hopefully this episode is coming out
0:44
Speaker 1: and we're getting some some guest listeners who are like,
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Speaker 1: what is this native thing all about? Who are these
0:50
Speaker 1: dumb dumbs? They can explain it, and so I like,
0:52
Speaker 1: I like you lobbying out in a little factoid for everyone.
0:56
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's how we do. We tread lightly,
0:59
Speaker 1: we don't overstep our bounds, and we laugh about factoids.
1:02
Speaker 1: So welcome. This is stuff you should know. My name
1:04
Speaker 1: is Chuck and I'm a co host along with Josh Clark. Yeah, Hi,
1:08
Speaker 1: and we explain things and it's in my humorous way
1:12
Speaker 1: over the course of you know, a lot of podcasts
1:14
Speaker 1: do this every episode. They explain what their missions I
1:17
Speaker 1: would I would go berserk, man, I would have giant
1:20
Speaker 1: patches in my head where I've just pulled hair clean out.
1:24
Speaker 1: But we like to explain things in a in an
1:26
Speaker 1: approachable way to the common person, that is to say,
1:30
Speaker 1: that is what we are. We don't have lofty goals.
1:34
Speaker 1: There you go. Why did you write that one down?
1:37
Speaker 1: That was amazing? Yeah, we should do this every time
1:39
Speaker 1: and just let me wing it every time. Okay. I
1:42
Speaker 1: think we just came up with a new format in
1:44
Speaker 1: twenty two. So Chuck, we're talking about NATO, and if
1:49
Speaker 1: you didn't know, if you didn't know, we're in trouble.
1:52
Speaker 1: But if you the listener, especially the new ones, didn't know,
1:56
Speaker 1: NATO stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which is
2:00
Speaker 1: the kind of name that you can make your eyes
2:03
Speaker 1: glaze over with just one pass. It's just that boring sounding, right, Yeah,
2:08
Speaker 1: But it's a pretty I mean, I don't know, maybe
2:11
Speaker 1: this is an opinion of my own, but I think
2:13
Speaker 1: it's pretty fundamentally uh integral body to the world order.
2:19
Speaker 1: I mean, it's certainly proved itself as such. And you know,
2:23
Speaker 1: we're Americans, we were kind of raised to think like
2:27
Speaker 1: NATO's fine and great, and it's a good thing. Don't
2:29
Speaker 1: even don't even bother thinking about it unless we need
2:32
Speaker 1: you to, and if so, we'll alert you through the
2:34
Speaker 1: media and then you can start thinking about it. Um.
2:37
Speaker 1: But if you dig into it a little bit and
2:38
Speaker 1: you actually like, look at the stuff that it does,
2:41
Speaker 1: the stuff that it has done, the reasons it was founded,
2:44
Speaker 1: and the reasons it's operating now, it actually does make
2:47
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of sense. If you're a fan of democracy.
2:50
Speaker 1: You know, even if you're not a fan of military operations,
2:54
Speaker 1: which I mean, like I'm not, I would rather everything
2:57
Speaker 1: just be at peace. It would be great if we
2:59
Speaker 1: could do everything through diplomacy, right, Um. But so even
3:03
Speaker 1: if you're not like, yeah, we gotta go get him,
3:05
Speaker 1: let's just get over there and shoot everybody. Um, you
3:08
Speaker 1: could still be like a supporter of NATO just because
3:13
Speaker 1: of the stability it does provide, like you were saying,
3:16
Speaker 1: or has provided all this time. I I and yeah,
3:19
Speaker 1: I mean in recent stuff with Ukraine and Russia has
3:22
Speaker 1: definitely made me rethink it in a more positive light
3:24
Speaker 1: and that it's more essential than I thought it was. Yeah,
3:29
Speaker 1: and we'll get into that obviously along the way in
3:32
Speaker 1: this episode and sort of explain what's going on in
3:34
Speaker 1: some detail. But I also just the idea that NATO
3:39
Speaker 1: is outdated and of a bygone era and not useful
3:42
Speaker 1: in a waste of money is I think, um folly
3:46
Speaker 1: and Uh, We're not gonna go down that road too much.
3:48
Speaker 1: We're just gonna probably explain how it works and hopefully
3:52
Speaker 1: through that to display why it's still necessary. The thing is, Chuck,
3:56
Speaker 1: is that particular opinion of NATO wasn't necessarily be wrong
4:01
Speaker 1: a year ago, two years ago, five years ago. And
4:04
Speaker 1: it's not like you and I just woke up to
4:06
Speaker 1: the importance of NATO. Literally, the world has changed in
4:10
Speaker 1: the last two months since Russia invaded Ukraine and NATO,
4:14
Speaker 1: which was struggling to find its way its purpose up
4:18
Speaker 1: until about two thousand and fourteen, when the last time
4:21
Speaker 1: Russia invaded Ukraine, UM suddenly became like important and had
4:26
Speaker 1: a reason to exist again. So things have changed that
4:29
Speaker 1: dramatically that a thirty nation allegiance organization that had been
4:35
Speaker 1: kind of like what are you what are you guys
4:37
Speaker 1: doing again? What's the point of all this was now
4:39
Speaker 1: one of the most important organizations in the entire world again.
4:43
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I think there's a lesson in complacency there. Uh,
4:48
Speaker 1: Like it's like if you had this old panic room
4:50
Speaker 1: installed in your house in the seventies and and you
4:54
Speaker 1: know here in were like, you know what this panic room.
4:57
Speaker 1: I think I'm just going to turn it into a
4:59
Speaker 1: Benga hall. It's getting kind of useless. And then all
5:02
Speaker 1: of a sudden the purge happens, and you remember why
5:05
Speaker 1: you needed that panic room. Yeah, so the purge happened
5:09
Speaker 1: to Ukraine in February of this year, But the purge
5:13
Speaker 1: was always just sitting out there possibly could happen. And
5:18
Speaker 1: I guess that's the complacency I'm talking about. I think
5:20
Speaker 1: no one thought anything like, oh, everything's like, everything's fine
5:24
Speaker 1: these days, like Europe is not going to be at war,
5:26
Speaker 1: we don't need this stuff. And then but that possibility
5:30
Speaker 1: is always out there, and I think just the mirror
5:32
Speaker 1: and this isn't me, this is you know, highly respected
5:36
Speaker 1: people say that just the mere mention of exiting NATO
5:40
Speaker 1: and dissolving NATO emboldened people like Putin, Yes, so, um,
5:45
Speaker 1: what sucks is like the idea that that we're living
5:49
Speaker 1: in a world where NATO is essential, where that the
5:52
Speaker 1: purge is kind of always out there. Um, it didn't
5:57
Speaker 1: necessarily be that way. And if if you if you're
5:59
Speaker 1: uncomble living in that that kind of reality, if you're
6:03
Speaker 1: if you're like this reality actually sucks that the purge
6:06
Speaker 1: is out there and we have to have NATO. Now,
6:09
Speaker 1: we have to spend all this extra money on defense
6:11
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and you know, peace seems to
6:13
Speaker 1: be you know, up in arms in question. Again, blame
6:17
Speaker 1: the people who invade other countries. Don't blame the people
6:21
Speaker 1: who have allied to fight against that kind of thing
6:25
Speaker 1: in the name of democracy, Well said sir. Should we
6:29
Speaker 1: go back to the beginning. Yeah, let's talk about the
6:31
Speaker 1: history of NATO, because it's a fairly um young organization
6:35
Speaker 1: comparatively speaking, like if you compare it to you know,
6:38
Speaker 1: systems of writing, it's very young, that's true, or the
6:43
Speaker 1: sun sure, very very young. Huh uh. So let's go
6:48
Speaker 1: back in time. I guess we should jump in the
6:50
Speaker 1: old way back machine. Rank it up. It's been a while.
6:53
Speaker 1: You're showing off for the new people. Huh. I know,
6:55
Speaker 1: we have a way back machine and we can go
6:57
Speaker 1: back in time to take that April fourth, nineteen forty
7:06
Speaker 1: nine is when the North Atlantic Treaty was signed initially
7:09
Speaker 1: by the original uh the O G s the twelve
7:12
Speaker 1: founding member countries, which were ourselves here in the United
7:16
Speaker 1: States Canada are hat to the North. I like that
7:20
Speaker 1: you're adding a little bit to each one. But can
7:23
Speaker 1: you sing it as a song? No? I can't. Shoot.
7:26
Speaker 1: I just did did you hear that? I did? Uh?
7:30
Speaker 1: Where else? The United Kingdom, our friends across the pond,
7:33
Speaker 1: Uh France, those folks who make such good gravies, Uh Italy,
7:38
Speaker 1: which is all about those pillowy beautiful what are they
7:44
Speaker 1: called croissants? Well, sure, but I was thinking of the pasta.
7:48
Speaker 1: That's uh the gnocchi. Oh yeah, that's not pillowe. It's dense,
7:53
Speaker 1: it's densest pillowe. I don't think that's gnocchi. I think
7:58
Speaker 1: that's like um is delicious, but it's Yournoki's two dens.
8:04
Speaker 1: Isn't gnocchi? Stuff with something though? No key, Oh, I'm
8:08
Speaker 1: thinking of parogis Portugal delicious wines. Uh Norway. I just
8:15
Speaker 1: here they bike a lot over there. Denmark they bike
8:17
Speaker 1: even more. Iceland is not Greenland. People get those confused Belgium.
8:23
Speaker 1: I've been there, and that's where NATO is headquartered. We'll
8:26
Speaker 1: get to that. The Netherlands, they are largely below sea level.
8:30
Speaker 1: And then Luxembourg. I flew out of there once. It's
8:33
Speaker 1: very small. It is extremely small. And I've been to
8:36
Speaker 1: Belgium too, by the way. Uh, yeah, Belgium is nice.
8:39
Speaker 1: And then you got Greece and Turkey in fifty two
8:41
Speaker 1: West Germany and fifty five Spain and eighty two, and
8:45
Speaker 1: then in n when the Soviet Union collapsed, it was
8:49
Speaker 1: like a free for all of people and countries going
8:53
Speaker 1: oh me me, me, me, me, me me. Over the
8:54
Speaker 1: next eighteen years, Yeah, and NATO was saying, yes, come
8:57
Speaker 1: be friends, come become democracies. This is great for US. UM.
9:02
Speaker 1: And that was that. We'll talk about it kind of considered. UM.
9:05
Speaker 1: There's a guy named James stev RDIs. He was the
9:08
Speaker 1: Supreme Allied Commander of NATO from two thousand nine to
9:12
Speaker 1: two UM and he put it as that that was
9:16
Speaker 1: kind of the beginning of NATO two point oh. But
9:19
Speaker 1: NATO one point oh. The original mission of NATO was
9:24
Speaker 1: very clear, it was very purposeful, it was very complicated
9:28
Speaker 1: in execution, and it required tons of money, especially considering
9:32
Speaker 1: there were only twelve to sixteen members from two right
9:38
Speaker 1: um and the mission was contained the Soviet Union because
9:44
Speaker 1: after World War Two, Europe was just tow up from
9:48
Speaker 1: the flow up and it was up for grabs. And
9:52
Speaker 1: one of the first things the Soviet Union did was
9:55
Speaker 1: start pouring all of its economy into its military and
9:59
Speaker 1: say sing, okay, you're part of the Soviet Union. Now
10:02
Speaker 1: you're part of the Soviet Union. You're part of the
10:03
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. They drew whatevery eighties, kid Um knew was
10:08
Speaker 1: a line between Europe and the Eastern Bloc called the
10:12
Speaker 1: Iron Curtain. And you did not penetrate the Iron Curtain.
10:16
Speaker 1: The Iron Curtain penetrated you. All right, y'all think I'm
10:22
Speaker 1: glad you got that. Uh, that is true. And the
10:26
Speaker 1: one of the biggest parts of NATO, that's sort of
10:29
Speaker 1: one of the most fundamental parts of it, is Article five,
10:32
Speaker 1: which we won't read in full. You should go look
10:34
Speaker 1: it up online though and read it. But it basically,
10:37
Speaker 1: but we could sing it. It basically says, you know
10:41
Speaker 1: what these are all like, NATO isn't a military force.
10:45
Speaker 1: It is a bunch of countries and their military forces,
10:48
Speaker 1: and it's really up to each member to decide what
10:52
Speaker 1: they want to do when it comes to supporting an
10:56
Speaker 1: ally like you don't have to use military force. Uh
11:00
Speaker 1: you can though under an international law, but you basically
11:04
Speaker 1: it's up to each country. It's a it's a weird
11:06
Speaker 1: organization and that they don't vote on things. It's all
11:09
Speaker 1: just sort of hammered out as a consensus, including who
11:14
Speaker 1: the NATO Secretary General is. They don't even vote on that.
11:17
Speaker 1: They just sort of agree to who's gonna take that
11:19
Speaker 1: role and um which will you know, we'll get to
11:22
Speaker 1: what they do later, but it is I did find
11:25
Speaker 1: it fascinating that they don't you know, they don't sit down.
11:27
Speaker 1: I mean, how many countries are there now, thirty? They
11:31
Speaker 1: don't sit down and have a thirty country vote when
11:34
Speaker 1: it comes to anything. They just they just work it out.
11:36
Speaker 1: That means sometimes some countries are gonna get more of
11:39
Speaker 1: what they want and some times are gonna have to
11:41
Speaker 1: acquiesce and get less, Yeah, which I find kind of neat.
11:45
Speaker 1: But overall, most of the countries are in favor of
11:47
Speaker 1: doing whatever NATO is doing, or they're opposed to it,
11:51
Speaker 1: and NATO doesn't do something so that Article five, the
11:55
Speaker 1: basis of it is what's called collective defense and the
11:58
Speaker 1: maintenance of this. This is the thing that probably binds
12:02
Speaker 1: more than anything else the thirty countries that are members
12:05
Speaker 1: of NATO, is that if you attack one NATO country,
12:09
Speaker 1: you are effectively attacking all thirty NATO countries, and those
12:14
Speaker 1: thirty NATO right, those thirty NATO countries will bring their substantial,
12:20
Speaker 1: significant military might onto you the attacker who attacked that
12:24
Speaker 1: one country. That's ultimately the main and original purpose of
12:29
Speaker 1: NATO because when when NATO was formed and Russia was
12:33
Speaker 1: consolidating its military, Europe was not what The countries of
12:38
Speaker 1: Europe were in no shape to defend themselves. So they
12:41
Speaker 1: entered into this pact with the United States and Canada,
12:44
Speaker 1: who said, we'll come over and help you guys. And
12:46
Speaker 1: by the way, so you know, I hope you're listening.
12:48
Speaker 1: If you attack any of these guys, if you try
12:49
Speaker 1: to expand beyond that iron curtain, we're coming in like
12:53
Speaker 1: it's an attack on us. That was the basis of NATO,
12:56
Speaker 1: and it's been upheld ever since, although it's only been
12:59
Speaker 1: in once in the history um since nineteen yeah. And
13:04
Speaker 1: not only does that mean that these countries aren't getting attacked,
13:07
Speaker 1: which is uh been pretty ironclad. It means that other countries,
13:12
Speaker 1: like obviously in ninety one, like I said, with the
13:15
Speaker 1: fall of the Soviet Union, over the next eighteen years
13:18
Speaker 1: are scrambling to be a part of it because a
13:21
Speaker 1: lot of these are smaller countries who no way could
13:24
Speaker 1: they stand up to a superpower like Russia. Uh so
13:28
Speaker 1: they were they want to be in NATO, and we'll
13:31
Speaker 1: talk about Ukraine and they're you know, whether or not
13:34
Speaker 1: their desire was to be a part of NATO and
13:36
Speaker 1: where that kind of lies now with the current situation.
13:39
Speaker 1: But the point is these countries like Slovenia and Albania
13:43
Speaker 1: and Croatia and Montenegro, like they want to be a
13:47
Speaker 1: part of NATO because they need friends. Well they yeah,
13:51
Speaker 1: they do need friends because yeah, if if there was
13:53
Speaker 1: Russian aggression against them, they would just completely they would
13:57
Speaker 1: have no no choice. They I don't even think they
13:59
Speaker 1: could fight back in the way that Ukraine did. Some
14:01
Speaker 1: of these countries are so small and have such small militaries.
14:05
Speaker 1: So yeah, so right now as it stands, as far
14:07
Speaker 1: as Article five is concerned, if any country attacks North
14:11
Speaker 1: Macedonia to the United States military, it is attacking the
14:15
Speaker 1: United States. That's just part of the NATO treaty, right,
14:19
Speaker 1: And and there's that's a point of contention from what
14:22
Speaker 1: I saw a chuck that that some people are like, Okay,
14:25
Speaker 1: are we really going to send our troops over to
14:28
Speaker 1: like die in North Macedonia if Russia attacks it? And
14:32
Speaker 1: as far as our Article five is concerned, yeah, you
14:35
Speaker 1: would like you would do that, like that's part of
14:37
Speaker 1: the treaty, Like they are a NATO member nation. And
14:41
Speaker 1: to some people it doesn't make sense that you would
14:43
Speaker 1: sacrifice you know, blood and treasure as they say in
14:46
Speaker 1: North Macedonia. To other people, it's it's exactly sensible because
14:51
Speaker 1: if North Macedonia is a NATO country, you can put
14:55
Speaker 1: whatever missiles you want in North Macedonia. They're a NATO country,
14:59
Speaker 1: and so there's strategically located, and their strategic location makes
15:03
Speaker 1: them extraordinarily valuable as a NATO member. So it makes
15:08
Speaker 1: sense in some ways, it doesn't make sense in other ways.
15:11
Speaker 1: But overall, the general idea is that the more NATO
15:15
Speaker 1: countries you have in Europe, the stronger the whole thing is,
15:19
Speaker 1: even including the little countries. Everybody has a role to play. Well, yeah,
15:23
Speaker 1: and not only that, you know, the little countries. Uh,
15:26
Speaker 1: if you might think it's not worth expending all this
15:29
Speaker 1: kind of money to help and you know, maybe American
15:32
Speaker 1: soldiers lives to protect them. The dominoes can fall very
15:35
Speaker 1: quickly when you have somebody like Putin in power, and um,
15:42
Speaker 1: the world wants most of the world wants peace, and
15:45
Speaker 1: that can very easily be very tenuous if these little,
15:49
Speaker 1: smaller countries start following like dominoes and all of a
15:51
Speaker 1: sudden you look up and the world map is being redrawn,
15:55
Speaker 1: right exactly, So that's exactly what they're trying to prevent
15:58
Speaker 1: by by stringing together this cohesive group of NATO countries. Right. Um.
16:04
Speaker 1: On the other hand, if you are in Russia and
16:08
Speaker 1: you're in the Russian military, or say you're the head
16:11
Speaker 1: of Russia, when you see all these little countries that
16:15
Speaker 1: are along your border now suddenly saying we're a democracy
16:18
Speaker 1: and we're now NATO members and we can put missiles
16:22
Speaker 1: aimed at you, like right along your border, that's a
16:27
Speaker 1: huge menace to you. And um, that in some ways
16:32
Speaker 1: explains the aggression that Putin carried out in Ukraine. Among
16:37
Speaker 1: some observers, that's not that hasn't been is necessarily the
16:41
Speaker 1: stated goal of the invasion of Ukraine. But a lot
16:45
Speaker 1: of Russian experts say this, this actually is is a
16:49
Speaker 1: huge response to NATO. He doesn't want to bring Ukraine
16:52
Speaker 1: into the Russian Federation necessarily. I remember when this started
16:58
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. Um Emily, who was my wife?
17:02
Speaker 1: If you're new to the show, she gets mentioned occasionally.
17:06
Speaker 1: Josh's a wife, name you me? She gets mentioned occasionally.
17:09
Speaker 1: We also have pets. I have a daughter. They might
17:11
Speaker 1: pop up as well, but I doubt it. My pet
17:13
Speaker 1: is my daughter and they Emily was just like, why
17:17
Speaker 1: what is you know? She didn't really understand what was
17:20
Speaker 1: going on at first, She said, what does Russia want
17:21
Speaker 1: with Ukraine? And I just very simply because it's more
17:25
Speaker 1: complex than that. But I was basically like, it's like
17:27
Speaker 1: the oldest, the oldest reason in world history. It's land,
17:33
Speaker 1: and it's a big chunk of land, and where it
17:36
Speaker 1: sits next to Russia, it's strategically it's like it's troublesome
17:40
Speaker 1: for them to have uh NATO interests there, and it's
17:45
Speaker 1: troublesome for NATO to have Russian interest there. So it's
17:48
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny, like when you look back and
17:50
Speaker 1: they're not funny, it's sad. But when you look back
17:52
Speaker 1: at like, there are many reasons for war, but like
17:54
Speaker 1: one of the biggest ones has always just been land
17:57
Speaker 1: acquisition and holdings totally and usually along your border, and
18:02
Speaker 1: you just expand. I mean, it was like expanding the
18:04
Speaker 1: Empire before for like resources and stuff, and I think
18:07
Speaker 1: that still clearly goes on, but it also in this
18:10
Speaker 1: case is like wanting a buffer between NATO and Russia
18:14
Speaker 1: on the one hand, Right, should we take a break.
18:17
Speaker 1: Let's take a break, so we'll be right back and
18:19
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about some of the mess
18:22
Speaker 1: that NATO two point oh was in which led us
18:25
Speaker 1: to NATO three point oh. Okay, so we're back, and um,
18:45
Speaker 1: we're talking about what again Supreme Allied Commander James Stavridis called,
18:51
Speaker 1: and I think Time magazine like two eighteen NATO two
18:54
Speaker 1: point oh and NATO two point oh came about because
18:57
Speaker 1: the whole purpose of NATO, which was then tain the
19:00
Speaker 1: Soviet Union out of Europe um, became pointless because there
19:06
Speaker 1: was no Soviet Union anymore. After I believe the USSR
19:10
Speaker 1: broke up right. And on the one hand, when it
19:13
Speaker 1: first happened, Chuck, it was like you were saying, like,
19:16
Speaker 1: all of these these former Russian satellite states started scrambling
19:21
Speaker 1: to become part of NATO, and NATO was welcoming them
19:24
Speaker 1: with open arms. Um. And that that first part of
19:28
Speaker 1: that NATO two point oh, that second general point of
19:32
Speaker 1: NATO made a lot of sense, and it was consolidating
19:35
Speaker 1: Europe into an even more peaceful, more democratic area. But
19:40
Speaker 1: then after that kind of stabilized and they got there
19:43
Speaker 1: that process under underway, um, it started to kind of
19:47
Speaker 1: like lose its point or its purpose a little bit. Yeah.
19:52
Speaker 1: I mean, I think post Cold War, the complacency set
19:56
Speaker 1: in and people did start to think, like what are
19:58
Speaker 1: we doing? And NATO two point oh said, well, you
20:02
Speaker 1: know what we can. Uh. We can engage in counter
20:05
Speaker 1: terrorism uh campaigns. UH. We don't like the piracy that's
20:10
Speaker 1: going around the world, so we can help to combat that, uh.
20:13
Speaker 1: And we can get involved in these other uh in
20:17
Speaker 1: combating these other activities that are detrimental to world order
20:20
Speaker 1: and world peace. But this is kind of some of
20:23
Speaker 1: the stuff that not only did it, it caused some
20:26
Speaker 1: consternation in the citizens of the world, like what are
20:29
Speaker 1: we doing here with NATO. It was also within NATO
20:33
Speaker 1: there was a lot of infighting within the board of
20:36
Speaker 1: like what you know or the council should I say,
20:38
Speaker 1: what should we do? I don't think we should be
20:40
Speaker 1: doing this. We should be doing this. And since they
20:42
Speaker 1: have to hammer everything out and agree even sometimes to
20:46
Speaker 1: disagree in order to do something, it was a little
20:50
Speaker 1: bit fractured. On the interior, Yeah, big time because a
20:54
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, what the heck does combating
20:56
Speaker 1: piracy in the Gulf of Aiden have to do with
20:58
Speaker 1: protecting Europe, m the USSR, you know, the Cold Wars
21:02
Speaker 1: over what are we doing? Like, yeah, let's let's keep
21:05
Speaker 1: NATO together because who knows what what's going to be needed?
21:07
Speaker 1: But do we need to engage in this adventurism? And
21:11
Speaker 1: then UM the Supreme Alley Commander position, which is the
21:14
Speaker 1: head of all NATO forces, that is like by nature
21:19
Speaker 1: in the treaty, I think always an American, so the
21:22
Speaker 1: Americans always de facto and also in a lot of
21:25
Speaker 1: different ways really lead NATO. UM. But in the early
21:31
Speaker 1: two thousand's America squandered a lot of its credibility, a
21:35
Speaker 1: lot of its legitimacy in adventurism like invading Iraq unprovoked
21:41
Speaker 1: illegally um, which by the way, NATO had nothing to
21:44
Speaker 1: do with because the rest of the NATO nations are
21:47
Speaker 1: most of the other NATO nations were like, this is
21:49
Speaker 1: not right. We're not going anywhere near it, which is
21:52
Speaker 1: a mark in NATO's favor if you ask me, um
21:55
Speaker 1: that they saw like this is not this is not
21:57
Speaker 1: a just war as an invasion um. But that that
22:02
Speaker 1: kind of stuff like really kind of made other member
22:06
Speaker 1: nations kind of question American leadership. Whereas up to that point,
22:11
Speaker 1: or a little before that point, it was just like
22:13
Speaker 1: America was leading the way, NATO was following, and it
22:16
Speaker 1: was all good. And then after that things started to
22:19
Speaker 1: really kind of fracture and crack. Right. So this is
22:22
Speaker 1: sort of when Ukraine um comes into the picture, and
22:26
Speaker 1: that you don't have to be a NATO member to
22:30
Speaker 1: deal with NATO and to work with NATO and to
22:32
Speaker 1: read a lot of the benefits of NATO so they
22:35
Speaker 1: can partner with non NATO countries. This started back in
22:38
Speaker 1: ninety one with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and
22:41
Speaker 1: the goal here is to basically to arm people, to
22:44
Speaker 1: train people to ensure their democracy stays stable. Uh. And
22:50
Speaker 1: you know when that started happening, non NATO countries got
22:54
Speaker 1: interested in this kind of partnership, specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina,
22:59
Speaker 1: Georgia and uk Rain. So all of a sudden, these uh,
23:02
Speaker 1: in the early nineties, these other countries are knocking on
23:05
Speaker 1: the door saying, hey, we don't want to be members
23:09
Speaker 1: because they can you can join. Any European country can
23:13
Speaker 1: join NATO as long as they, you know, do what's required,
23:16
Speaker 1: which will you know, we'll get to that in a minute.
23:19
Speaker 1: But Ukraine has been working with them through what's called
23:22
Speaker 1: the Comprehensive Assistance Package. They've been receiving NATO support. Uh.
23:28
Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thing that you know,
23:31
Speaker 1: Zelinski has a lot of this quagmire that is happening
23:35
Speaker 1: now is Russia was afraid that they were officially going
23:38
Speaker 1: to join NATO because Zelinski approved the National Security strategy,
23:43
Speaker 1: which it was almost like they were seriously kicking the
23:46
Speaker 1: tires on one another. Finally, yeah, I think they. He
23:50
Speaker 1: said in September twenty twenty that that Ukraine's aim was
23:54
Speaker 1: to become a full member of NATO after being a
23:57
Speaker 1: partner for you know, three decades but basically um or
24:01
Speaker 1: at least two full decades um and even before that,
24:05
Speaker 1: the whole thing kind of kicked off. There was a
24:07
Speaker 1: summit in Bucharest called the Well the Bucharest Summit in
24:11
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and at that meeting, Georgia and
24:14
Speaker 1: Ukraine declared that it was their aim to become NATO members.
24:18
Speaker 1: And that seems to be at least geo politically speaking,
24:22
Speaker 1: what what kind of kicked the tensions off big time
24:27
Speaker 1: and led to the two thousand fourteen invasion of Ukraine
24:29
Speaker 1: and Crimea and then also led to the two invasion
24:34
Speaker 1: that's going on right now. That's right. A little more
24:38
Speaker 1: nuts and bolts about NATO itself. They are, like we
24:41
Speaker 1: said at the beginning, they're headquartered in Brussels, and uh,
24:46
Speaker 1: everything's done by consensus. And you mentioned the military part
24:50
Speaker 1: of NATO. It's different. It's called the Military Committee. It's
24:53
Speaker 1: different than the actual North Atlantic Council. Like that's headed
24:57
Speaker 1: by the NATO Secretary General and it's not a it's
25:00
Speaker 1: not a figurehead position, but they don't they're not in
25:04
Speaker 1: charge of like deciding anything they're just sort of uh,
25:07
Speaker 1: they're the Secretary General, they head up the meetings. Uh.
25:10
Speaker 1: They have historically always been European and the head of
25:13
Speaker 1: the Military Committee has always been American, like you said,
25:15
Speaker 1: but there's nothing in the charter that says that has
25:17
Speaker 1: to be the case. It's just always been that way. Uh.
25:21
Speaker 1: So they're they're in Belgium and they're taking meetings every
25:25
Speaker 1: day and and and you know, answering the bat phone
25:28
Speaker 1: when it rings. And then you've got your Military Committee,
25:32
Speaker 1: and then you've got your what's the other one, the
25:33
Speaker 1: nuclear the Nuclear Planning Group. Uh, And I guess the
25:37
Speaker 1: military is sort of the link between all of these.
25:40
Speaker 1: To make sure you know the military strategy is sound. Yeah,
25:44
Speaker 1: because DATO likes to to publicize itself as a both
25:47
Speaker 1: a military and a political organization. And it definitely is
25:51
Speaker 1: like if you partner with NATO as a as a
25:54
Speaker 1: partner country or if you remember like you're you're you're
25:58
Speaker 1: engaged with them politically and they try to work things
26:01
Speaker 1: out diplomatically like um. Very famously, one of the first
26:05
Speaker 1: post Cold War missions that NATO embarked on was in
26:09
Speaker 1: the Balkans. When war broke out there. UM in for
26:13
Speaker 1: the former Yugoslavian states right back in the Wag the
26:16
Speaker 1: Dog era. You remember that, of course? Yeah? Okay, so
26:21
Speaker 1: um do you remember in the movie Wag the Dog?
26:24
Speaker 1: Like that? Okay, so so, and then that happened basically
26:27
Speaker 1: in real life. It was such a close resemblance to it.
26:29
Speaker 1: I remember a reporter asking Bill Clinton, like, have you
26:32
Speaker 1: ever seen the movie Wag the Dog, because like, the
26:35
Speaker 1: Balkan NATO mission started like right as the Monica Lewinsky
26:39
Speaker 1: Lewinsky scandal was heating up, And he said, it depends
26:43
Speaker 1: on what your definition of scene is, right, I mean,
26:47
Speaker 1: we're gonna be able to tee off on that guy forever. Huh,
26:50
Speaker 1: let's just cut that great. So the the so, they
26:54
Speaker 1: NATO entered the Balkans um and tried to like work
26:58
Speaker 1: everything out. There's a peacekeeping mission um, but there was
27:01
Speaker 1: also obviously a lot of military operations is how they
27:03
Speaker 1: kept the peace. But even still there's an ongoing Balkan
27:06
Speaker 1: mission there and they're trying to sort out the still
27:09
Speaker 1: the longstanding hostility and promote democracy in these groups. So
27:13
Speaker 1: they are a political organization, but they're also really at
27:17
Speaker 1: the end of the day, their military just the incredible
27:21
Speaker 1: unrivaled might of the military combined military powers of the
27:26
Speaker 1: thirty countries involved in NATO. It's it's you just can't
27:30
Speaker 1: really look at it too many other ways. It's a
27:33
Speaker 1: it's a huge military, that's right. Uh. And as far
27:36
Speaker 1: as the the Main Committee goes, or the Main Council
27:40
Speaker 1: it is headed, each country has their own ambassador. I
27:44
Speaker 1: think we got a new and is that right? What's
27:47
Speaker 1: her name, Julianne Smith, julian Smith. I want to say
27:52
Speaker 1: Julianne Moore, just because boy, she would be great at that.
27:56
Speaker 1: Sure we need more actors and roles like this, right
28:01
Speaker 1: for sure? That's I mean, if any job, actors have
28:04
Speaker 1: proven to be amazing politicians over the years, that's right.
28:07
Speaker 1: And actor would never like to get up on stage
28:09
Speaker 1: of the auctors and hit somebody. Man, I'm so disturbed
28:12
Speaker 1: and just unsettled by that. It was very surreal. I
28:16
Speaker 1: was actually not going to watch the Oscars this year
28:18
Speaker 1: because I'm kind of over it, but for some reason
28:20
Speaker 1: I watched, so I saw it live. Wow, that must
28:24
Speaker 1: have been cereal, just like I think like everyone else thought.
28:27
Speaker 1: It was a bit at first, and then when the
28:29
Speaker 1: here in the United States the audio cut out, and
28:32
Speaker 1: it was clear from Chris Rock. When he came back,
28:33
Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, did that Did I just
28:36
Speaker 1: see what I think I saw? Yeah, that's crazy. I
28:39
Speaker 1: was telling you me. I couldn't find a clip with it,
28:41
Speaker 1: but I wanted to see, like or here the ham
28:44
Speaker 1: fisted way the conductor in the orchestra like tried to
28:48
Speaker 1: play everything back out, you know, from the weird, uncomfortable,
28:52
Speaker 1: awkward silence that just gripped the entire auditorium. I want
28:56
Speaker 1: to know how they got out of that awkward silence,
28:58
Speaker 1: because I'll bet it was equally well they didn't. He
29:01
Speaker 1: had to give out. He was right in the middle
29:02
Speaker 1: of giving out an award. Oh so he had to
29:05
Speaker 1: continue on after that, Yes, dude, it was that joke
29:09
Speaker 1: was before he even started giving out the award. You know,
29:11
Speaker 1: when they go up there and just make jokes. So,
29:14
Speaker 1: I mean, that was one of the saddest things is
29:15
Speaker 1: that he gave out the award for Best Documentary to
29:19
Speaker 1: quest Love for his awesome documentary Summer of Soul, So like,
29:23
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like his mom is overshadowed. It
29:26
Speaker 1: was jeez, what a train wreck. Anyway, off topic, Hey,
29:30
Speaker 1: that's something we do sometimes, folks, We take tangents. Uh
29:35
Speaker 1: should we talk a little bit about the funding of NATO.
29:38
Speaker 1: I don't think you can get around that, chuck, just try.
29:41
Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, let's let's talk about one other thing.
29:44
Speaker 1: So where we are today before we hit finding? Okay,
29:48
Speaker 1: so we're at what um what? Uh? Supreme Commander, Supreme
29:52
Speaker 1: Allied Commander James Stavridis. And if you can't tell, I
29:55
Speaker 1: like saying Supreme Allied Commander, you're not paying close enough attention.
29:59
Speaker 1: But um what he calls NATO three point Oh, because
30:03
Speaker 1: he's he's in the cyber security I guess. And NATO
30:06
Speaker 1: three point is where we are today. And like I
30:09
Speaker 1: was saying, you know, there's been a lot of talk
30:12
Speaker 1: and movement towards NATO expansion, and some Russia experts are saying,
30:17
Speaker 1: you know, that's one of the main drivers, are one
30:19
Speaker 1: of the big drivers for these invasions of Ukraine that
30:22
Speaker 1: have taken place of the last less than ten years. Um.
30:27
Speaker 1: But that aggression in response to NATO expansion or depending
30:33
Speaker 1: on how you take it, just straight up Russian aggression.
30:35
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't matter if NATO is talking about bringing
30:37
Speaker 1: Ukraine on and helping it become a democracy. You don't
30:40
Speaker 1: go waste a city, you don't waste a country. You
30:44
Speaker 1: don't gun down civilians, you don't bomb a theater where
30:46
Speaker 1: you know hundreds of civilians are hiding out. You don't
30:49
Speaker 1: do that. There's no justification for it, and you know,
30:53
Speaker 1: damn you to hell for doing it, whoever you are.
30:56
Speaker 1: So that kind of aggression has actually, now, like we
31:00
Speaker 1: were saying at the beginning of the episode, changed the
31:03
Speaker 1: world order so dramatically that um, it's revived NATO. Like
31:09
Speaker 1: all of that bickering, all of the inner ally you know,
31:13
Speaker 1: dissent in UM in troubles and like what what's our purpose?
31:18
Speaker 1: All of that has been just pushed right to the
31:20
Speaker 1: back and all of a sudden, Europe in America are
31:23
Speaker 1: friends again, europe as friends with one another again. UM,
31:26
Speaker 1: and NATO is probably stronger than it has been in
31:29
Speaker 1: the last thirty years, thanks to ironically vot Vladimir Putin.
31:33
Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely, I mean yeah, I have. I've read a
31:38
Speaker 1: lot about this and that doesn't seem to be like
31:41
Speaker 1: a controversial hot take. Um. It seems to be fairly
31:45
Speaker 1: indisputable that NATO is as UM as allied and as
31:49
Speaker 1: and as together. It's it's been in decades, and it
31:52
Speaker 1: couldn't have come at a better time because you know,
31:54
Speaker 1: I don't know if you noticed or not, but democracy
31:56
Speaker 1: itself has been kind of under assault, and people were
31:59
Speaker 1: wonder is the US up to the task of taking
32:02
Speaker 1: that on? Is that Europe up to the task of
32:04
Speaker 1: taking that on? And one of the main tenants of
32:08
Speaker 1: NATO is promoting democracy not just around the world but
32:12
Speaker 1: within its own countries, its own member nations, since a
32:16
Speaker 1: lot of countries have had some kind of weird, weird
32:19
Speaker 1: times that it's gone through where NATO has had to
32:22
Speaker 1: basically call those countries out, I think Turkey most recently,
32:25
Speaker 1: where it said, hey, you're a NATO member, we expect
32:28
Speaker 1: you to uphold democracy and democratic values. Right, So it
32:32
Speaker 1: promotes it not just around the world, but among member nations,
32:36
Speaker 1: and that's a huge important point. And so this strengthening
32:40
Speaker 1: of strengthening of NATO, and thus the strengthening of belief
32:45
Speaker 1: and in placing value in the idea of democracy and
32:49
Speaker 1: a willingness to defend democracy could not have come at
32:52
Speaker 1: a more vital time. So in that sense, thank you
32:54
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. It's just a shame and very sad that
32:59
Speaker 1: that had to come at the expense of the people
33:00
Speaker 1: of Ukraine. Agreed. Uh, so maybe we should take the
33:04
Speaker 1: break now and we'll come back and talk about that funding,
33:08
Speaker 1: previously mentioned funding right after this. George. Alright, so the
33:28
Speaker 1: aforementioned NATO funding. And by the way, thanks to our
33:31
Speaker 1: former colleagues at house stuff works dot com for the
33:34
Speaker 1: the the original NATO article that kind of started down
33:37
Speaker 1: this this road. But uh, there's a lot of misconceptions
33:41
Speaker 1: about NATO funding and how that works. Uh. The official
33:44
Speaker 1: guidelines say that member nations are expected to commit a
33:48
Speaker 1: minimum of two percent of their GDP their gross domestic
33:52
Speaker 1: product to spending on defense. But it's there's not a
33:58
Speaker 1: uh because like I said, NATO, it's not loosey goosey.
34:01
Speaker 1: But it's not like someone checks the books every year
34:04
Speaker 1: and then goes to Luxembourg and says, Hi, you actually
34:08
Speaker 1: spent this and this is what you owe. So if
34:10
Speaker 1: you could just get the checked book out, uh and
34:13
Speaker 1: make that up right now, that would be fantastic. Well, no,
34:17
Speaker 1: there's no penalty. That's not how it works. Uh. And
34:20
Speaker 1: I think um, only three members spent two percent of
34:25
Speaker 1: their GDP or more on defense. I think the US
34:29
Speaker 1: spends about three and a half. Is that the most
34:31
Speaker 1: recent number? Uh? Yeah, as right, and um, everyone in
34:37
Speaker 1: NATO has basically said, though, all right, we get it,
34:40
Speaker 1: we'll we'll try and up our spending and we would
34:43
Speaker 1: like to meet that goal in the next couple of
34:46
Speaker 1: years here. Yeah, because again as NATO is like, what
34:50
Speaker 1: are we doing here? Again? That really led to a
34:53
Speaker 1: big decline in military spending, and that huge increase in
34:57
Speaker 1: in military spending among europeanations of recent years has largely
35:02
Speaker 1: been because of Vladimir Putin rattling a saber and then
35:04
Speaker 1: actually following through on it. But one one thing, Chuck
35:08
Speaker 1: that I think is really like important, that's a misconception
35:10
Speaker 1: is we don't contribute three and a half percent of
35:14
Speaker 1: our GDP to NATO. No, A lot of people think
35:17
Speaker 1: that the requirement is that you as a nation spend
35:21
Speaker 1: two percent on your own nation's defense. And then, because
35:26
Speaker 1: you're all tethered together through this invisible alliance of NATO,
35:31
Speaker 1: NATO combined has access to those thirty member nations defense
35:36
Speaker 1: all what those defense budgets by which, when you add
35:40
Speaker 1: it all up, is extremely substantial. Both an amount spent,
35:43
Speaker 1: but also in like like what you get for that
35:46
Speaker 1: kind of money. Yeah. I do think that some people
35:49
Speaker 1: might think that everyone chips in this money to NATO
35:52
Speaker 1: and that there are NATO forces and stuff like that.
35:55
Speaker 1: That's not how it works. NATO's we do contribute to
35:58
Speaker 1: run NATO with their you know, with their own budget.
36:00
Speaker 1: But that's about two billion bucks two and that's just
36:03
Speaker 1: day to day operations and uh, you know, logistics and
36:08
Speaker 1: operations and keeping the headquarters nice tidy clean. Someone's gotta
36:13
Speaker 1: clean those bathrooms. Uh. That's not a lot of money though,
36:16
Speaker 1: But that two percent, right is spending on your own military. Uh,
36:21
Speaker 1: it's actually apportioned out uh in the original I guess charters.
36:27
Speaker 1: That what you say of the original agreement? Um the
36:30
Speaker 1: what the treaty? Yeah, the treaty. It's right there, That's
36:34
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's so boring, it's keep wanting to
36:38
Speaker 1: find a better name. Uh. There the apportionment for the
36:42
Speaker 1: United States, our cost share is here in the US,
36:48
Speaker 1: if you look at our g d P, it's about
36:51
Speaker 1: the same size as the other twenty seven nations put together.
36:55
Speaker 1: So it's not based on like how big in an
36:58
Speaker 1: economy you have, because then we would be our apportion
37:01
Speaker 1: it would be about fifty but it's twenty two. Yeah, right,
37:04
Speaker 1: it does make sense. That's just for chipping into that
37:07
Speaker 1: two billion dollars that keeps NATO operation operation already at
37:11
Speaker 1: all times. That's not for US, it is um and
37:15
Speaker 1: so the US is, as you know, far in a way.
37:19
Speaker 1: We we spend on defense um I think almost three
37:24
Speaker 1: times more than the other NATO nations combined. So we
37:27
Speaker 1: spent about eight hundred and eleven billion dollars in one
37:31
Speaker 1: and the rest of the NATO allies spend it combined
37:33
Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty three billion, from I think the
37:36
Speaker 1: UK's fifty nine point two billion down to North Macedonia's
37:41
Speaker 1: hundred and eight million. But if you look at proportion
37:45
Speaker 1: of g d P, there are plenty of nations who
37:48
Speaker 1: go beyond that two percent, Like Grease actually spends more
37:51
Speaker 1: of its GDP by percentage on defense than the United
37:55
Speaker 1: States does. We spend three and a half percent. Grease
37:57
Speaker 1: spends three point eight two, Crowa just two point seven nine,
38:01
Speaker 1: The UK is two point two nine, Poland is two
38:03
Speaker 1: point one. So plenty of nations have started topping that.
38:07
Speaker 1: But that is a fairly new thing. Yeah, Like you
38:10
Speaker 1: just can't look at NATO as a a thirty item
38:14
Speaker 1: balance sheet, uh and say, well, this is a bad
38:17
Speaker 1: deal because I'm looking at thirty different numbers of what
38:21
Speaker 1: these countries contribute. It's it's much it's much more complex
38:25
Speaker 1: than that. You have to look at it relative to
38:28
Speaker 1: the size of the nation in their economies and overall spending.
38:31
Speaker 1: It's it's frustrating. Say no, it really is. But when
38:36
Speaker 1: you add it all up, what you have is a
38:39
Speaker 1: combined in two thousand, twenty one, one point one seven
38:44
Speaker 1: four trillion dollars among the NATO allies spent. That comes
38:50
Speaker 1: to three and a half million troops who are committed
38:53
Speaker 1: to NATO's alliance. Three and a half million troops. And
38:57
Speaker 1: just that dollar amount alone, by the way, one point
39:00
Speaker 1: one seven four trillion, that's basically more than the rest
39:04
Speaker 1: of the world combined, and just the NATO allies, the
39:07
Speaker 1: non US NATO allies spending is more than China and
39:10
Speaker 1: Russia's defense budgets combined. So it's it's substantial not to
39:15
Speaker 1: mention that three NATO members are nuclear powers allied together. Like,
39:20
Speaker 1: so when you put all that stuff together, the idea
39:24
Speaker 1: of NATO like being this stabilizing force in global security
39:27
Speaker 1: makes total sense. It doesn't even have to do anything,
39:30
Speaker 1: It just has to exist to keep things stable and
39:34
Speaker 1: to promote democracy around the world and to reach out
39:37
Speaker 1: to like formerly non democratic countries and say, hey, here's
39:41
Speaker 1: how you become democratic. Here are the values. Let's see
39:43
Speaker 1: if you can stick to them, if you want to
39:44
Speaker 1: become a NATO member. Just from this kind of defense spending.
39:48
Speaker 1: It's kind of ingenious in a way. Well, it is,
39:51
Speaker 1: and I think it's I think it's part of just
39:54
Speaker 1: modern society to get complacent about our memories are so
39:58
Speaker 1: short these days, I think, and there's so little um
40:03
Speaker 1: acknowledgement and realization of like the history of the world
40:07
Speaker 1: and not just like the last thirty to fifty years.
40:10
Speaker 1: You know, there's been peace in Europe for about seventy
40:14
Speaker 1: years now, and that's all anyone, you know, that's all
40:19
Speaker 1: most people remember, unless you're like in your eighties, probably
40:24
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. That it's been previous to that,
40:28
Speaker 1: there were a couple of millennia of of war in Europe,
40:33
Speaker 1: and like the fact that NATO, and I think I
40:35
Speaker 1: mean not not singly NATO, But I think NATO has
40:40
Speaker 1: been the biggest driver of ensuring that piece over the
40:43
Speaker 1: last seven decades. Yeah, I mean you're not the only one.
40:46
Speaker 1: Like pretty much global security experts will will say, yes,
40:51
Speaker 1: NATO has kept the world order stable for that long
40:54
Speaker 1: and basically as long as it's been around. I think
40:57
Speaker 1: it's just sad that I think the the short term
40:59
Speaker 1: memory of how kind of people are today, it's like,
41:02
Speaker 1: you know, the could rules over. Do we really need
41:04
Speaker 1: this stuff anymore? Yeah, But I mean it's tough to
41:06
Speaker 1: blame people because again, it's like the world you grew
41:09
Speaker 1: up into the world you're born, and then just the
41:11
Speaker 1: relief of like, wow, democracy actually one, we actually did it.
41:16
Speaker 1: We can just relax for once for a little while.
41:18
Speaker 1: It was funny, Chuck, I was thinking today there are
41:20
Speaker 1: plenty of people who I'm sure listen to our podcast
41:23
Speaker 1: who have never lived under the threat of nuclear attack
41:26
Speaker 1: and are now for the first time in their life.
41:28
Speaker 1: And I've settled back into it like it's an old
41:30
Speaker 1: smoking jacket and some comfy slippers, you know, like this
41:33
Speaker 1: is just like normal, normal stuff to me. And I realized,
41:37
Speaker 1: like I wonder how many people out there super anxious
41:39
Speaker 1: about that idea of dying in a nuclear attack, and UM,
41:44
Speaker 1: all I can say is you get used to it,
41:47
Speaker 1: you do you get used to to uh doing drills
41:50
Speaker 1: in school where you would go get under your desk, hallway,
41:55
Speaker 1: duck and cover because that would do a lot in
41:57
Speaker 1: the case of a nuclear bomb. Or uh, you know,
42:00
Speaker 1: watching Matthew Broderick bring us back from the brink of
42:04
Speaker 1: nuclear war. What a hero, what a movie. So Chuck,
42:08
Speaker 1: we should probably before we finish, we should probably talk
42:10
Speaker 1: about the future of Ukraine and NATO, because, as we've
42:13
Speaker 1: said a few times here, you know, Ukraine making moves
42:16
Speaker 1: towards becoming a NATO member and being like in deep
42:19
Speaker 1: cahoots with NATO. UM has has created this situation, at
42:25
Speaker 1: least in part where Russia's feeling like emboldened about invading
42:29
Speaker 1: Ukraine to either put a stop to that or whatever
42:33
Speaker 1: putin saying he's doing so. Um, if you've been paying
42:37
Speaker 1: attention to the news of Voldemir Zelinski has been saying like, Okay,
42:41
Speaker 1: we're we're we're willing to maybe start talking about neutrality now.
42:45
Speaker 1: And what he's talking about has almost everything to do
42:48
Speaker 1: with NATO, right, Yeah, I mean, neutrality isn't just a
42:55
Speaker 1: isn't just something like just say, oh, you know, we're
42:57
Speaker 1: we're neutral. We just don't feel that strong about anything
43:00
Speaker 1: over here. Right, That's not what it means. Neutrality in
43:04
Speaker 1: terms of the world order. I believe it means you
43:07
Speaker 1: don't get involved in the third country's problem. It doesn't
43:12
Speaker 1: mean you're like a nihilist Libski What was that? That
43:17
Speaker 1: was my fleet? Okay, the one the Lincoln Berry pancakes.
43:24
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Neutrality means you won't get involved in the
43:28
Speaker 1: third countries, uh issues. Isn't that right? Totally? Yeah, No
43:33
Speaker 1: matter what like, So you wouldn't join NATO, you wouldn't
43:36
Speaker 1: send arms, you wouldn't do anything like that, which, by
43:39
Speaker 1: the way, I mean, since we said Ukraine is a
43:42
Speaker 1: partner country, they're just getting a steady flow of arms
43:45
Speaker 1: through Poland from NATO um allies. And it's been super
43:50
Speaker 1: effective from what I saw, because Russia is a tank
43:52
Speaker 1: based military and the anti tank weaponry that we've been
43:57
Speaker 1: sending Ukraine and Ukraine has been using the great effect
44:00
Speaker 1: has actually stalled stalled a hundred thousand Russian troops from
44:04
Speaker 1: taking over Ukraine, which everybody thought was gonna happen in
44:07
Speaker 1: a matter of days. Now they're finally backing off of Kiev.
44:11
Speaker 1: It's just insane to even say it out loud. But um,
44:15
Speaker 1: under neutrality, there would be no arms going from NATO
44:19
Speaker 1: to Ukraine. UM. Russia would not be allowed to invade Ukraine.
44:24
Speaker 1: Ukraine would be what Finland is. Finland has a huge
44:27
Speaker 1: amount of border that it shares with um Russia, and
44:32
Speaker 1: it serves as a buffer state between Europe and Russia.
44:35
Speaker 1: It's not allied with Russia, it's not allied with Europe.
44:37
Speaker 1: Finland's just its own jam. The proposal on the table
44:41
Speaker 1: now is that Ukraine become like the southern Finland. It
44:44
Speaker 1: will be a neutral state. It'll be its own sovereign democracy,
44:47
Speaker 1: can do whatever it wants, but it can't join NATO
44:49
Speaker 1: and it's not certainly going not going to be allied
44:52
Speaker 1: with Russia, not after this invasion or ever, because of
44:55
Speaker 1: its neutrality status. Yeah, and I think the idea at
44:58
Speaker 1: first is that people thought, and it may have been
45:00
Speaker 1: the case that Russia wanted to absorb Ukraine as part
45:04
Speaker 1: of a building back uh maybe not a new Soviet Union,
45:07
Speaker 1: but just expanding Russia. And that may have been the case.
45:11
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think the last few weeks
45:14
Speaker 1: it's become clear that that's not possible, and that like
45:16
Speaker 1: occupation of Ukraine isn't possible, like long term occupation. So
45:21
Speaker 1: it seems like neutrality may be the only way forward here.
45:25
Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, definitely, I guess. I mean, yeah,
45:29
Speaker 1: it's you like, I can't imagine how difficult occupying Ukraine
45:32
Speaker 1: would be for Russia, like over any period of time.
45:36
Speaker 1: I don't think they have enough troops to do that, no,
45:38
Speaker 1: And I mean the Ukrainians certainly have the will to
45:41
Speaker 1: resist for as long as they need to to get
45:43
Speaker 1: Russia out of there. So yeah, it's um, I I
45:46
Speaker 1: feel like now that seems to be I think we
45:48
Speaker 1: read an Al Jazeera article on it, right, Yeah, it
45:51
Speaker 1: was super interesting. They talked a lot about how, you know,
45:55
Speaker 1: not all pro Russian sentiment in Ukraine has been dissolved,
45:59
Speaker 1: because there there was some obviously, but uh, this has
46:03
Speaker 1: done a lot of damage to that. Oh yeah, I'm
46:06
Speaker 1: sure anybody who's on the fence before is like, Okay,
46:08
Speaker 1: I'm not Russian or even considering pro Russian anymore. But
46:13
Speaker 1: that does seem to be that and this is you know,
46:16
Speaker 1: obviously up to Ukraine. But if Zelinski is making gestures
46:19
Speaker 1: and overture saying we're willing to talk about neutrality, um,
46:22
Speaker 1: it seems like that could be their decision. But um again,
46:27
Speaker 1: global security experts, at least ones that were quoted in
46:29
Speaker 1: Al Jazeera are are saying like this is actually probably
46:32
Speaker 1: the most viable and quick, short term or like at
46:36
Speaker 1: hand solution to ending this invasion and actually stabilizing things
46:41
Speaker 1: again for a while. That's right. That article, by the way,
46:44
Speaker 1: is Ukraine, what does neutrality mean? And could it lead
46:49
Speaker 1: to peace? From Thomas oh Falk And that was just
46:52
Speaker 1: from a few weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago. Yeah,
46:55
Speaker 1: And in addition to how stuff works in the Al
46:56
Speaker 1: Jazeera article, we got stuff from Brooking's, the Brennan's Center,
47:00
Speaker 1: Time BBC and a bunch of other ones to Sesame Street.
47:05
Speaker 1: This is definitely one of the u is for up yours, um.
47:12
Speaker 1: And this is one of those definite moments in in
47:15
Speaker 1: history that it's worth paying attention to. So if this
47:18
Speaker 1: this our episode struck your fancy it all, go go
47:21
Speaker 1: read up on it because it's there's a lot of
47:23
Speaker 1: really interesting and important stuff to read literally, the world
47:26
Speaker 1: has changed in the last couple of months more than
47:29
Speaker 1: it has in years. Since two thousand one, I would say,
47:32
Speaker 1: since two thousand one, are you got anything else? I
47:36
Speaker 1: don't think so. Okay, Well, if you want to know
47:40
Speaker 1: more about NATO, you can go check that out online.
47:44
Speaker 1: And since I said check that out online, everybody, it's
47:46
Speaker 1: time for listener mail. That's right, I thought, why not,
47:52
Speaker 1: let's read one from a brand new listener. Uh, this
47:56
Speaker 1: is the first episode they listened to, and I have
47:58
Speaker 1: foretold the future with his email. Wow, we uh just kidding.
48:02
Speaker 1: Hey guys. Last week, though, I found out about your podcast, uh,
48:06
Speaker 1: and I'm loving it. I become tired of the radio
48:08
Speaker 1: so decided to start looking at podcast for my work commute,
48:11
Speaker 1: and yours caught my eyes. It looked interesting without being
48:14
Speaker 1: too heavy, educational, but not as depressing as the news.
48:18
Speaker 1: Perfect nice Okay. I was waiting for a response. Well,
48:24
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, nice, was my response. I'll take it.
48:28
Speaker 1: You two make a great pair and work off each
48:30
Speaker 1: other seamlessly. When I listen, I cannot help but think
48:32
Speaker 1: of you two as a mash up of burten Ernie
48:34
Speaker 1: and SNL's The Delicious Dish okay, and a gasto Shannon,
48:39
Speaker 1: So I will respond to that part because, um, that
48:42
Speaker 1: is probably the greatest description anyone's ever come up with
48:46
Speaker 1: for it, wetty balls. I mean that in the most
48:50
Speaker 1: complimentary way, by the way. I love it and it
48:52
Speaker 1: works so darnwell obviously, since the show is going strong
48:55
Speaker 1: for years now, thank you for noticing. I just wanted
48:59
Speaker 1: to reach out and saying thanks for saving me from
49:01
Speaker 1: boring radio and crazy news and helping my mind grow
49:05
Speaker 1: while being entertained. And that is from Samantha Burns Maloney. Well,
49:10
Speaker 1: thanks Samantha. We really appreciate that. That was a great email. Seriously,
49:15
Speaker 1: the best descriptor I've ever heard. Yeah, if you're new
49:19
Speaker 1: to the podcast, or you're a long timer, or you
49:22
Speaker 1: email every week, we want to hear from you. You
49:25
Speaker 1: can send us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeart
49:29
Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production
49:34
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49:40
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