Latest / Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast / Morton, Finnegan & More Trade Deadline Aftermath

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Morton, Finnegan & More Trade Deadline Aftermath · Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: And welcome into another episode of Tiger Territory, part of
0:09
Speaker 1: the bou Territory Nowork, a Detroit Tiger's podcast. I'm Karen
0:12
Speaker 1: Steckley with me as always a man who got no love,
0:15
Speaker 1: no brotherly love from the airline industry. This weekend, he
0:19
Speaker 1: is Cody Stevenagg and how you doing all.
0:24
Speaker 2: Right, Karen?
0:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.
0:25
Speaker 2: Flights to Philadelphia canceled at about four to twenty am
0:29
Speaker 2: on both Friday and Saturday morning. Number one. I never
0:32
Speaker 2: knew it was so hard to get from Detroit to Philadelphia,
0:35
Speaker 2: like very few viable alternatives. I tried the whole go
0:38
Speaker 2: to Newark thing. That wasn't easy either. Nightmare travel weekend.
0:43
Speaker 2: Interesting few days in the life of a baseball writer.
0:46
Speaker 2: Go from waiting to make sure Gino Suarez leaves Camerica Park,
0:50
Speaker 2: and of course he's the very last one to come
0:53
Speaker 2: out of the clubhouse, like twenty minutes after all his teammates.
0:56
Speaker 2: So I'm in a mild panic. Then it's Thursday. Gosh,
1:00
Speaker 2: it's the trade deadline. Phone is just buzz buzz buzz
1:03
Speaker 2: all day. I'm like, I'm going outtown this weekend. Man,
1:07
Speaker 2: I need to mow the yard, am I gonna do
1:10
Speaker 2: this and then I don't go out of town because
1:14
Speaker 2: travel nightmare. But hey, we're still here to talk about.
1:17
Speaker 2: The Tigers anyway, lost two out of three in Philly,
1:20
Speaker 2: but three pretty entertaining ball games. Look at a couple
1:24
Speaker 2: of the new trade deadline acquisitions. I think we got
1:27
Speaker 2: some stuff to talk about here.
1:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I don't know if it's the fact
1:32
Speaker 1: that I just had some delicious Jets pizza or what,
1:36
Speaker 1: but I actually am feeling in a pretty good mood
1:39
Speaker 1: right now. Cody, having watched that series, Now, look, you
1:41
Speaker 1: dropped two out of three. Those are each game. Each
1:44
Speaker 1: of the three were games that were winnable for the Tigers,
1:48
Speaker 1: especially but obviously both teams. This is a good Philadelphia squad.
1:52
Speaker 1: This is a recently revamped, as we saw at the
1:55
Speaker 1: end Sunday Night, Philadelphia squad. I just wanted to lay
1:58
Speaker 1: this out of there. To begin, the Phillies are plus
2:00
Speaker 1: seven fifty to win the World Series. That's second to
2:04
Speaker 1: the Dodgers on DraftKings sportsbook. So they're pretty good. They're
2:09
Speaker 1: pretty good. And the Tigers had had a win all
2:12
Speaker 1: the way to the end on Friday. You have you
2:15
Speaker 1: hold them off on Saturday, and then you know, Sunday,
2:20
Speaker 1: you have a couple you play excellent defense and you
2:22
Speaker 1: have like the contact play not go your way, and
2:25
Speaker 1: then a couple of bounces here there, and you end
2:27
Speaker 1: up losing to nothing. I actually feel okay, I feel okay,
2:31
Speaker 1: given I think a lot of the noise about this team,
2:34
Speaker 1: both from the Detroit based people and then even the
2:38
Speaker 1: national media is like, the Tigers didn't do anything. Why
2:41
Speaker 1: didn't they do enough? Why did why did they do this?
2:43
Speaker 1: Why did you do this? Scott Harris hard to work with,
2:45
Speaker 1: you know, like all these negative thoughts, and they went
2:49
Speaker 1: out and they played on the road against a damn
2:53
Speaker 1: good team and very well could have taken two out
2:56
Speaker 1: of three despite being shorthanded pitching staff wise with the
3:02
Speaker 1: new addition, which we'll talk about a little bit later.
3:03
Speaker 1: So overall, I'm feeling like I'm feeling I'm feeling okay.
3:06
Speaker 1: I'm feeling okay. Not excited.
3:08
Speaker 2: Okay, Look, the team's back to playing pretty good baseball.
3:12
Speaker 2: Over their past seven games, They're what five and two
3:15
Speaker 2: and have played a pretty high level all of those games.
3:19
Speaker 2: The bullpen's still a pretty big problem, though, Karen we
3:22
Speaker 2: the bullpen had a rough weekend. We only got to
3:25
Speaker 2: look at one new reliever, Kyle Finigan. He was the
3:28
Speaker 2: best of the bunge, and I do wonder if he
3:30
Speaker 2: would have been like the first guy they got, you
3:32
Speaker 2: know it, like Wednesday Night instead of Rafael Montero, if
3:37
Speaker 2: everyone would feel a little better about it. But after
3:39
Speaker 2: you get Montero and Seawall, everyone is so angry that
3:43
Speaker 2: then you get a guy who doesn't really get strikeouts
3:45
Speaker 2: even though he's a good pitcher, and it's just like no, no,
3:48
Speaker 2: he sucks too. Like Kyle Finnigan's good, still a little
3:51
Speaker 2: bit of a reflection of their moves that we only
3:55
Speaker 2: saw one of these new guys, because Montero clearly is
3:58
Speaker 2: not going to be just handed leverage outings. We have
4:01
Speaker 2: not seen him yet. And I actually had this thought
4:05
Speaker 2: kind of post deadline, like one thing that would be
4:07
Speaker 2: very bad for the Tigers in August and September is
4:11
Speaker 2: if will Vest does not continue to pitch at almost
4:15
Speaker 2: an all star level. And it was a rough series
4:17
Speaker 2: for will Vest in Philadelphia, So that has me concerned
4:21
Speaker 2: a little bit. Some things to like, some reoccurring issues
4:25
Speaker 2: that you still don't feel very good about.
4:29
Speaker 1: I mean that's true, and that's fair. But one of
4:32
Speaker 1: the things that if you were gonna maybe Finnigan's number one,
4:37
Speaker 1: but I almost think what we saw today Cody from
4:40
Speaker 1: Charlie Board would be the number one. Most encouraging thing
4:44
Speaker 1: is like this guy was at the Bell Trade deadline
4:48
Speaker 1: addition and also not pretty numbers wise, but he went
4:52
Speaker 1: out there and he looked like what twenty twenty one
4:56
Speaker 1: Charlie Morton like, he looked like he looked like the
5:00
Speaker 1: guy that based on reputation, not the one that you
5:03
Speaker 1: know was pitching in Baltimore or the jury of the year.
5:06
Speaker 1: He was working his curveball, his fastball velo was excellent.
5:09
Speaker 1: He made a great defensive play to get there, get
5:13
Speaker 1: that double play there. Torque also had a good play
5:16
Speaker 1: there as well. I was impressed by Charlie Morton, Like
5:19
Speaker 1: I thought that like literally the last addition, it's kind
5:24
Speaker 1: of like the afterthought level. But the way he pitched
5:28
Speaker 1: was like, again, if you would have got this guy
5:31
Speaker 1: at the beginning and then he pitches like that, like
5:35
Speaker 1: maybe we think about it a little bit better. But
5:37
Speaker 1: I was impressed with Charlie Morton.
5:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's still a little bit of a
5:40
Speaker 2: hard sell for me. I'm glad they got a starter,
5:43
Speaker 2: all right, I'm glad they got someone. It was also
5:45
Speaker 2: a guy whose first eleven starts were so bad he
5:47
Speaker 2: got moved to the bullpen and seemed like the Orioles
5:50
Speaker 2: at one point were probably pretty close to eating the
5:52
Speaker 2: majority of fifteen million dollars. So, even though he's pitched
5:56
Speaker 2: much better since then, I think he has a three
5:58
Speaker 2: eight eight ERA after coming back to the rotation in Baltimore.
6:03
Speaker 2: It's hard to be that bad. It's hard to be
6:05
Speaker 2: really good at the major league level. It's also kind
6:08
Speaker 2: of hard to be terrible because if you're terrible, you
6:11
Speaker 2: don't stay, and everyone up here is like pretty good.
6:14
Speaker 2: There's generally kind of a floor. It's hard to have
6:17
Speaker 2: worse than a five ERA as a starting pitcher. He's
6:20
Speaker 2: had that this season. I know he's been better. Whatever
6:23
Speaker 2: first look at him as a Tiger, he was indeed better.
6:26
Speaker 2: I mean just the pure eye test, the pure stuff,
6:29
Speaker 2: a lot better than when we saw him pitch against
6:31
Speaker 2: Detroit earlier. I want to see it two or three
6:34
Speaker 2: more times before I really have any more reaction, because
6:38
Speaker 2: then it's like, well, cold strike whiff Ray was twenty
6:41
Speaker 2: one percent. It's a little bit below where you want it.
6:44
Speaker 2: He did have fifteen whiffs, which I like. He only
6:47
Speaker 2: got three cold strikes. That tells me hitters were being
6:49
Speaker 2: pretty aggressive, maybe because they're not afraid of his stuff.
6:53
Speaker 2: Even though this stuff was solid, average exon velocity was
6:56
Speaker 2: ninety one miles an hour. That's a little higher than
6:58
Speaker 2: you want. The underlying stuff probably wasn't as good as
7:02
Speaker 2: the pure results. What's that outing look like if Rightley
7:05
Speaker 2: Green doesn't make a terrifect catch in the gap. But
7:08
Speaker 2: then again you take away that like he had some
7:10
Speaker 2: innings where he moved quick shut down the Phillies. Obviously
7:15
Speaker 2: a very good, encouraging first start for Charlie Morton. Let's
7:19
Speaker 2: see what's ahead in its next couple outings.
7:22
Speaker 1: Morton is somebody that this will be a talking point
7:26
Speaker 1: until his next start and probably a little bit later
7:28
Speaker 1: and Finn again this will be a thing. And then
7:31
Speaker 1: with Paddock this was discussed a little bit. We haven't
7:34
Speaker 1: had a chance actually to talk about this cliche for
7:37
Speaker 1: the Tigers because the Tigers haven't been in this position
7:40
Speaker 1: near a trade deadline time that when we're done this podcast,
7:43
Speaker 1: But how much of the like I was on a
7:47
Speaker 1: bad team now I'm on a contender kind of emotional
7:51
Speaker 1: uplift and and like motivation and you know, like all
7:56
Speaker 1: that stuff do you personally buy as so so kind
8:01
Speaker 1: of our cliche BS detector, Cody, I'm curious where you
8:06
Speaker 1: line on that, because again, it's not something that we
8:08
Speaker 1: professionally have kind of seen up close. So what do
8:12
Speaker 1: you think.
8:13
Speaker 2: I'd be curious to see like a statistical study on that,
8:17
Speaker 2: Like do players perform better after being traded to contenders?
8:21
Speaker 2: Because I don't know. I can think of examples, Nick
8:25
Speaker 2: Cassianos when you got traded from the Tigers to the
8:27
Speaker 2: Cubs and went off. I'm sure there are examples of guys,
8:30
Speaker 2: probably pitchers, especially where it's a little more volatile, who
8:33
Speaker 2: don't perform well. So like, is there actually significance, I
8:37
Speaker 2: don't know. I do believe certain guys can probably get
8:41
Speaker 2: a jolt. If you're Charlie Morton and you're forty one,
8:44
Speaker 2: then you're pitching for a team that's out of it,
8:46
Speaker 2: and you're thinking maybe your career is nearing its end,
8:49
Speaker 2: and then you start pitching a little better, and all
8:51
Speaker 2: of a sudden you're back in like a Pennant race.
8:54
Speaker 2: I feel like that the human element of that could
8:56
Speaker 2: like aid your performance a little bit. You're Chris Paddock
9:01
Speaker 2: and your team just dismantled itself and now, hey, you
9:04
Speaker 2: get to be on the Contender. That's gotta feel good.
9:07
Speaker 2: So I don't know if I totally buy it. I
9:10
Speaker 2: think it can probably be a little bit overstated. Look
9:15
Speaker 2: at last year's Tigers called up a bunch of guys,
9:19
Speaker 2: you know, no one was expecting anything, and it was like, oh,
9:22
Speaker 2: we're just young and hungry, So are you? Are you
9:24
Speaker 2: not young and hungry anymore because you acquired some old
9:27
Speaker 2: veteran guys like you know, I think all these things
9:30
Speaker 2: get a little like overwrought. But I'll buy it. I
9:33
Speaker 2: think with Morton especially, I'm gonna buy it.
9:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would probably say it probably works for a
9:39
Speaker 1: game or two, but it's gonna be completely irrelevant on September,
9:45
Speaker 1: you know, seventh, so like that that that would be
9:49
Speaker 1: like my my opinion on that. But I think it's
9:52
Speaker 1: also probably a case of playing with better players as
9:55
Speaker 1: much as more so than even just like being on
9:57
Speaker 1: a contender team. If you go to a contender team,
9:59
Speaker 1: you're playing with better players you tend to probably have
10:01
Speaker 1: better results with better players around you. Is a team game,
10:04
Speaker 1: after all. All right, we're gonna take a quick break.
10:07
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11:20
Speaker 1: All right, coming back here, Cody. You know Friday was
11:24
Speaker 1: quite a disappointing game. We're not gonna dissect it, but
11:27
Speaker 1: that sort of like a running gag might have been
11:31
Speaker 1: the best that we've seen Jack Flaherty this year. Uh no,
11:35
Speaker 1: hitter into like what the fifth is that correct? And
11:38
Speaker 1: and exits like a classic AJ. Yeah, you had a
11:42
Speaker 1: great game, but one little let up. All right, we're
11:45
Speaker 1: gonna turn over to the pen and don't you worry
11:47
Speaker 1: about a guy. And obviously it didn't end up working out.
11:50
Speaker 1: Quite a disappointing game to lose. In an opener Saturday,
11:54
Speaker 1: you got Schooble, okay, but he's also as distracted as
11:59
Speaker 1: Trek Schouble be certainly this year, maybe the rest of
12:04
Speaker 1: his life, depending on how other aspects of family planning go.
12:08
Speaker 1: But if he were to have a slip up game,
12:11
Speaker 1: I think it'd be one of the more understandable ones
12:14
Speaker 1: of his carip But you're gonna drop a series. You
12:18
Speaker 1: got Zach Wheeler on the mounds, like all these things
12:20
Speaker 1: going on outside the clubhouse, and you had it was
12:24
Speaker 1: a game that you needed your lead dogs to be
12:28
Speaker 1: lead dogs. And what happened school ball ten strikeouts, seven innings,
12:32
Speaker 1: Torres home run, Riley Green makes a great diving catch
12:36
Speaker 1: and foul territory Haave Baiez home run, two run, triple,
12:42
Speaker 1: and those are your all star starters. Well, you also
12:44
Speaker 1: had Colt Keith hit a home run. You also had
12:47
Speaker 1: Carry Carpenter hit a home run. And then your new
12:49
Speaker 1: trade deadline acquisition gets a save, not just a save,
12:54
Speaker 1: but a four outsave. As Philly kept clawing back to
13:00
Speaker 1: this game, winning that felt important. It felt important on Saturday,
13:05
Speaker 1: and then as I say here on Sunday night, it
13:08
Speaker 1: still feels important. And I was gonna I thought I
13:10
Speaker 1: was gonna feel this regardless of what happens Sunday night.
13:13
Speaker 1: I still feel like that was a crucial game to
13:16
Speaker 1: kind of show like these this is the squad, This
13:20
Speaker 1: is the squad. This is why you should believe in it,
13:22
Speaker 1: because when these guys are playing right, they can they
13:25
Speaker 1: can beat anybody. And again, Philly's quite a good team.
13:27
Speaker 1: It's a great picture.
13:29
Speaker 2: Trying trying to think how aj Hinch would answer if
13:33
Speaker 2: he was asked something like that. I'd probably say, well,
13:37
Speaker 2: it's a nice win, but it's just one, you know.
13:40
Speaker 1: He would say, well, you know, we've earned the right
13:44
Speaker 1: to be able to have a game like that with
13:47
Speaker 1: the players that we've coached up and developed to showcase
13:51
Speaker 1: their talents. We've earned that right. He likes that they've
13:53
Speaker 1: earned the right.
13:54
Speaker 2: No, he has and for a while as well, we
13:57
Speaker 2: haven't earned the right to talk like this yet, and
13:59
Speaker 2: now now they he thinks they've earned it. They've earned it.
14:02
Speaker 2: But I kind of agree with the idea that like,
14:05
Speaker 2: it's one game. I just have a tough idea, a
14:07
Speaker 2: tough time reading too much into one game with any
14:10
Speaker 2: of this stuff, with the bullpen guys, with the trade
14:13
Speaker 2: deadline acquisitions. We can't draw a verdict on how any
14:17
Speaker 2: of this is gonna work out. I guess it's better
14:19
Speaker 2: than going into Philadelphia and getting swept. That would be bad.
14:23
Speaker 2: But yeah, you put up some nice abs against Zach Wheeler.
14:26
Speaker 2: You played a good game, you backed up schoogle. Yes,
14:29
Speaker 2: all that is good. Doesn't mean any more than any
14:32
Speaker 2: other game. Probably not, you know, I'm not assigning any
14:36
Speaker 2: different level of value to that. It might have meant
14:39
Speaker 2: something here to win a series against a really good
14:42
Speaker 2: Phillies team, a Phillies team that has the second best
14:45
Speaker 2: World Series odds. You didn't do that, So was that disappointing.
14:49
Speaker 2: I'm not sure it's disappointing because it is a really
14:51
Speaker 2: good team. But I maybe the Tigers have earned the
14:55
Speaker 2: right to be talked, for us to be like, okay,
14:57
Speaker 2: can they beat the best of the best? And maybe
14:59
Speaker 2: that is something to pay attention to the rest of
15:02
Speaker 2: this schedule. How are you hitting against ace pitchers? You're
15:05
Speaker 2: gonna see some really good pitching in the postseason. Kudos
15:08
Speaker 2: to them for taking Zach Wheeler deep a couple of times.
15:12
Speaker 2: They also didn't win the series, So those are my thoughts.
15:18
Speaker 1: This wasn't heralded as a potential World Series preview or
15:22
Speaker 1: anything like that, but it you know, that's certainly in
15:25
Speaker 1: the cards. It's certainly in the cards, right, I felt
15:29
Speaker 1: coming out of that series, I felt pretty confident that
15:31
Speaker 1: that could be one of those either it's a five
15:37
Speaker 1: game series where it's a five run differential in either direction,
15:41
Speaker 1: or it goes seven. You see what I'm saying. Like
15:42
Speaker 1: I came I came away thinking, like, these are two
15:45
Speaker 1: teams that would I have pretty good ratings in the
15:49
Speaker 1: World Series there because like they play competitive, they played hard.
15:53
Speaker 1: The defense that we saw today was so much fun.
15:56
Speaker 1: It was so much Moe and and and and the
15:58
Speaker 1: Tigers like had some of their best foot forward pitching wise,
16:03
Speaker 1: but not the headliners all the way and the Phillies
16:06
Speaker 1: did so like that was that was a lot of fun.
16:08
Speaker 1: So I think World Series preview check check me as
16:11
Speaker 1: one who would be a fan of that matchup on paper.
16:15
Speaker 1: All right, Let's move to something that we saw a
16:19
Speaker 1: couple of times Cody this weekend. And that's will Vest.
16:22
Speaker 1: And that's Will Vest giving up contact, and that's Will
16:25
Speaker 1: Vest giving up runs Friday and Saturday. He got the
16:29
Speaker 1: ball back on Saturday and results were similar. There's an
16:33
Speaker 1: interesting stat and I'll credit Chris Casilany for being the
16:36
Speaker 1: first one I saw to mention this. But will Ves
16:39
Speaker 1: splits by ning are quite fascinating to look at. So
16:43
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna ring them off real quick. We're gonna
16:46
Speaker 1: take away the two times this is only this year.
16:48
Speaker 1: We're gonna take away the two times that he appeared
16:51
Speaker 1: in the sixth inning. I find that largely irrelevant. So
16:55
Speaker 1: in the seventh inning he five appearances, three point one innings,
17:00
Speaker 1: eight point one R. That's in the seventh inning, eighth inning,
17:05
Speaker 1: seventeen games, twelve point two innings four point nine to
17:10
Speaker 1: seven R. Ninth inning, by far as most usage, twenty
17:16
Speaker 1: eight games, twenty eight innings zero point nine to six R.
17:22
Speaker 1: Do you want to go to like opponent averages, He's
17:25
Speaker 1: only he's only allowing one sixty eight opponent average in
17:30
Speaker 1: the ninth inning, one ninety six in the eighth inning,
17:32
Speaker 1: and four hundred I obviously you know himple sizes they're different,
17:35
Speaker 1: but four hundred in the seventh inning. So my question
17:39
Speaker 1: to you is is there anything to read into that?
17:42
Speaker 1: Because I don't know.
17:45
Speaker 2: My instinct is say, probably not right. It's probably a
17:47
Speaker 2: reflection of some different sample sizes, and that means nothing,
17:51
Speaker 2: but those differences are pretty interesting. And the first thing
17:54
Speaker 2: that comes to mind is a story I wrote about
17:57
Speaker 2: Will Vest not that long ago. Here an anecdote if
18:00
Speaker 2: you're watching on YouTube. Well, Vest a couple of years
18:04
Speaker 2: ago took a questionnaire survey thing that Tread Athletics does.
18:10
Speaker 2: He works out with Tread in the off seasons, and
18:14
Speaker 2: they help players determine what their optimal emotional state should
18:18
Speaker 2: be in terms of maximizing their performance. So you answer
18:22
Speaker 2: an a bunch of questions and it tells you, I
18:25
Speaker 2: don't know, you should be chill when you're on the mound,
18:27
Speaker 2: or you should be fired up when you're on the mound.
18:29
Speaker 2: Vest survey says you should be fired up. This, I
18:33
Speaker 2: believe was not long after he had a very bad
18:35
Speaker 2: spring training and what was that twenty two twenty three
18:40
Speaker 2: and got optioned. At the start of camp. You talked
18:44
Speaker 2: to wolves one thing, I don't know. Kind of hard
18:46
Speaker 2: for Wilvest to throw well in spring training because let's
18:49
Speaker 2: be real, the environments are bad. So Vest told me,
18:53
Speaker 2: not that long ago, we found I needed to kind
18:55
Speaker 2: of be a psycho out there a little bit, acting
18:58
Speaker 2: like my head is on fire and just being super aggressive.
19:01
Speaker 2: It sounds like there's reason to believe the emotional state
19:05
Speaker 2: matters for will Vest And so then after reading off
19:08
Speaker 2: those numbers you just laid out, it does make me
19:11
Speaker 2: wonder is he better in the ninth inning because his
19:14
Speaker 2: adrenaline is more is amped and is all the way
19:17
Speaker 2: up there in the ninth compared to non safe situations
19:21
Speaker 2: or not pitching in the ninth inning. That's one of
19:23
Speaker 2: the kind of the human element mysteries of the game
19:26
Speaker 2: that it's probably harder to answer. How much different is
19:29
Speaker 2: his stuff in then ninth versus the a versus the seventh.
19:33
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. Based on what I've watched all year,
19:35
Speaker 2: I haven't noticed a huge difference. But those numbers, combined
19:39
Speaker 2: with that that quote, that anecdote from Vest, do get
19:43
Speaker 2: me wondering a little bit if there's something to it.
19:46
Speaker 1: You're right, it was twenty twenty three when he didn't
19:50
Speaker 1: appear until April twenty second.
19:53
Speaker 2: Of it feels like a long time ago.
19:55
Speaker 1: Yes, and yeah, like the human element, how much I mean,
20:00
Speaker 1: if you're the manager, how you're supposed to be like, well,
20:02
Speaker 1: like the number U said like, because in theory, some
20:05
Speaker 1: of these numbers are not all that different than you know,
20:07
Speaker 1: first time through order, second time through order, third time
20:09
Speaker 1: through order type metrics. But at the same time, can
20:14
Speaker 1: you form your entire rotation like back end bullpen rotation
20:20
Speaker 1: around that that also doesn't necessarily feel like all the
20:23
Speaker 1: way the right thing to do, so, so that that's
20:27
Speaker 1: the challenge with Bill vest But I feel like you
20:29
Speaker 1: could still get that juice in the eighth I mean,
20:31
Speaker 1: I don't think he's chasing saves, So like a theory,
20:34
Speaker 1: the ad should still provide that opportunity and and we'll see.
20:38
Speaker 1: I mean, so far it's only been a weekend. But
20:43
Speaker 1: if Finnigan, if Finnigan's gonna get a four pitch opportunity
20:46
Speaker 1: or four out, I should say opportunity to get a save.
20:50
Speaker 1: That to me kind of that's that's a decent strong
20:53
Speaker 1: indication of agades, Like, hey, I tell you who I
20:56
Speaker 1: trust based on what I do. Like, that's pretty close
21:01
Speaker 1: to sea words stuff, Cody pretty close to sea word stuff.
21:05
Speaker 2: I don't know if he'll be the closer or not
21:07
Speaker 2: the closer. It does sound like I don't trust Tommy
21:09
Speaker 2: Kinley right now. I mean that's what that sounds like
21:12
Speaker 2: to me. When you know I was like, AJ hasn't
21:14
Speaker 2: done a whole lot of up and down this year.
21:17
Speaker 2: A guy finishes an inning and then comes back out
21:19
Speaker 2: for another one. We've seen that more from him in
21:22
Speaker 2: previous years. It had me wondering when Finnigan finished the
21:26
Speaker 2: eighth inning, like, is who's gonna throw the ninth? Surely
21:29
Speaker 2: not Kinlee? Right, No, it wasn't. It wasn't Kainlee. It
21:32
Speaker 2: was Finnigan. And so to me, I took that as
21:37
Speaker 2: an indictment of like, AJ doesn't feel good about any
21:40
Speaker 2: of his other options, So Kyle Finnigan's gonna go get
21:43
Speaker 2: the ball for this situation.
21:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and that that's a good transition into like
21:49
Speaker 1: just a little bit of a talk it out exercise
21:52
Speaker 1: here with where a couple of days removed from the
21:55
Speaker 1: trade deadline and all the emotions of it, and and
21:58
Speaker 1: how exhausting it was. I put on X that like
22:00
Speaker 1: it felt like a lot longer than the All Star
22:03
Speaker 1: break to go from the Wednesday day game to play
22:05
Speaker 1: Friday night with the trade deadline stuff, because it felt
22:08
Speaker 1: like forever since I watched the Tigers play a game,
22:11
Speaker 1: and Friday none of the new guys used and to
22:14
Speaker 1: this point obviously Morgan gets to start on Sunday, but
22:17
Speaker 1: all these new bullpen pieces, only one of them gets
22:21
Speaker 1: a shot in the weekend. I think one of the
22:23
Speaker 1: big losers of you know, we're gonna, like I said,
22:26
Speaker 1: we're just gonna talk this out. I think one of
22:27
Speaker 1: the big losers of the trade deadline for the Tigers,
22:30
Speaker 1: it's probably Tommy Kinley. I don't know if anyone else
22:33
Speaker 1: caught this on the broadcast, but Karl Ravitch referred to
22:38
Speaker 1: Canley as he was getting stretched out in the bullpen
22:40
Speaker 1: as a project. He said, he's kind of a project
22:43
Speaker 1: right now. And what he meant by that is like,
22:45
Speaker 1: this is a guy who's been was really good and
22:47
Speaker 1: now he's not. He's a kind way of saying he
22:51
Speaker 1: sucks right now, and they got to figure out how
22:52
Speaker 1: a way to get him, you know, get him right.
22:56
Speaker 1: And like that, to think at any point this season
23:00
Speaker 1: that that phrase, whatever we used about Tommy Kinley, it
23:03
Speaker 1: was unthinkable. So like in best to a certain extent too,
23:07
Speaker 1: like with his role, those guys are really undefined right now.
23:09
Speaker 1: I think they're kind of if you're the lead of
23:11
Speaker 1: a bullpen and then half of it gets yanked, kind
23:15
Speaker 1: of put you in the in the loser category there,
23:18
Speaker 1: and then probably the number one quote unquote loser of
23:20
Speaker 1: the deadline is probably Brendan Hanify. You know, he's not
23:25
Speaker 1: on the major league roster right now, which is.
23:27
Speaker 2: Quite a whild Well, your best, if not the best reliever.
23:30
Speaker 2: In July he got optioned. Yeah, aj Hinches quote almost
23:34
Speaker 2: seemed a little bit. I don't know. He just said, look,
23:37
Speaker 2: we don't have that many optionable relievers. They did have
23:40
Speaker 2: a few other options, or you could have just, I
23:42
Speaker 2: don't know, got rid of Luke Jackson. That would be
23:46
Speaker 2: in a project. Maybe Luke Jackson will have a fantastic
23:49
Speaker 2: month and it will be genius that they kept him around.
23:52
Speaker 2: But to keep Luke Jackson over Brendan Hannify, a guy
23:55
Speaker 2: who has earned his spot in my opinion and earned
23:57
Speaker 2: some innings, that's a choice. Yes, that's it's just a choice.
24:03
Speaker 2: I don't know.
24:05
Speaker 1: When Luke had his Tiger's debut, my dad called me afterwards, like, man,
24:09
Speaker 1: this bullpen sucks. He does not call me after every game.
24:13
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very random, but but yeah, it
24:17
Speaker 1: did feel the.
24:18
Speaker 2: Slider's pretty good. I see what they like in Luke Jackson.
24:21
Speaker 2: But it's gonna make hand if he go to Tweedo.
24:24
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know about that.
24:26
Speaker 1: All the history you have with with with Handifee and
24:29
Speaker 1: like like you like what you know. Yeah, that's a
24:31
Speaker 1: tough one. So he's obviously got to be you know,
24:33
Speaker 1: in quote unquote loser of the deadline, and and another
24:38
Speaker 1: kind of lesser loser would be Troy Melton is a
24:41
Speaker 1: guy who has you know, looked the part as a
24:44
Speaker 1: starter and and now that's not right now in the
24:48
Speaker 1: cards for him. I'm still I'm sure he'll still be
24:50
Speaker 1: in an effective long reliever and maybe this is overall
24:54
Speaker 1: a better thing for him long term. I'm not projecting anything,
24:57
Speaker 1: but you know, if you go from starting to bullpen
25:00
Speaker 1: like you know, that's in some ways that's the motion.
25:03
Speaker 2: So I put Yeah, I'm gonna argue Troy Melton's a
25:06
Speaker 2: winner if you're looking at major league service time and
25:09
Speaker 2: collecting a few nice paychecks, always winning through this, and
25:14
Speaker 2: he might just have a chance to assert himself as
25:18
Speaker 2: a dependable leverage relief option if he can pitch like
25:22
Speaker 2: the Tigers think he can pitch, and miss bats like
25:24
Speaker 2: they think he can miss bats out of the bullpen.
25:27
Speaker 2: There's actually kind of a big opportunity for Troy Melton,
25:31
Speaker 2: and it doesn't necessarily mean he has to be a
25:33
Speaker 2: reliever forever. If the Tigers wont he could come in
25:37
Speaker 2: and compete for a rotation job in the spring next year.
25:40
Speaker 2: I think he's going to get every opportunity to become
25:43
Speaker 2: a real piece of this bullpen down the stretch.
25:48
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up this name because he pitched today.
25:53
Speaker 1: The road to Detroit has begun for one, and I
25:56
Speaker 1: think he's a winner of this trade deadline and that's one. Jose.
26:01
Speaker 1: This somebody who was we talked about the signing at
26:04
Speaker 1: the time is like, could this be one of those
26:06
Speaker 1: low key like Scott Harris, big brain genius, uh, you
26:10
Speaker 1: know type acquisitions and who knows? He he put He
26:14
Speaker 1: pitched one inning and in Lakeland today and one strikeout,
26:18
Speaker 1: no hits, no runs, no walks. So you know we're
26:20
Speaker 1: not gonna we're not gonna overhype that. But even though
26:23
Speaker 1: he was not a trade deadline acquisition, I do kind
26:27
Speaker 1: of feel like the fact that the way Scott Harris
26:33
Speaker 1: shaped his mind going in having Jose your your kidie,
26:37
Speaker 1: like as somebody that you believe you can get real
26:39
Speaker 1: innings out of that had to factor in, so I've
26:42
Speaker 1: put him as a winner in some of the voter confidence.
26:45
Speaker 2: No, I mean the Tigers have been planning this way
26:48
Speaker 2: for a long time. That's kind of always been clear.
26:51
Speaker 2: It became clear as as we got to the second
26:54
Speaker 2: part of July, like they're planning on Jose Orkidi to
26:57
Speaker 2: pitch for them in the major leagues. I do wonder
27:01
Speaker 2: what the timeline for that is. He's just now pitching
27:03
Speaker 2: one inning in Lakeland. I mean, it sounds like it
27:05
Speaker 2: might not be September until he's pitching in the big leagues.
27:10
Speaker 2: So then, like, how much are you really gonna get
27:12
Speaker 2: out of him? But they've built up a lot of depth.
27:15
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting. I don't know if it's gonna work.
27:18
Speaker 2: I'm not here to really say yes or no, because
27:20
Speaker 2: I think it's hard after having watched last year's Tigers,
27:25
Speaker 2: it's hard to act like any of us know anything
27:27
Speaker 2: definitive about this game. The Jose Orkidi and Alex Cobb
27:31
Speaker 2: lead the Tigers to greatness down the stretch, it'll be
27:34
Speaker 2: a great story. And maybe we should quit doing this
27:37
Speaker 2: podcast because I don't know. I think about baseball.
27:41
Speaker 1: We're gonna get to our number one winner or loser,
27:45
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28:50
Speaker 1: All right, coming back here, the man that you have
28:54
Speaker 1: to determine whether he's a winner or a loser, and
28:58
Speaker 1: I think three days in it looks a little bit
29:00
Speaker 1: better for him is one Scott Harris, because because this
29:07
Speaker 1: was somebody that, look, the Tigers are being considered a
29:10
Speaker 1: team that didn't do enough. That's a reflection of him
29:12
Speaker 1: right as the ultimate decision maker. And certainly locally a
29:17
Speaker 1: lot of people were hoping for bigger moves, bigger splashes.
29:22
Speaker 1: Then on Friday, these three relievers, these three prizes of
29:28
Speaker 1: the trade deadline that the New York Yankees acquired, all
29:32
Speaker 1: when they're completely their fault, all proceeded to there's a
29:38
Speaker 1: kind of way to say this, but do something to
29:40
Speaker 1: the bed against the Marlins and cost them like a
29:45
Speaker 1: very frustrating game. And the first thing when I saw that,
29:48
Speaker 1: the first thing I thought was the Scot Harris line
29:50
Speaker 1: about volatility. And that's not to say, like we saw
29:55
Speaker 1: the other end of that tonight, right, So like we're
29:57
Speaker 1: gonna be fair here about it. But when I heard
30:01
Speaker 1: that the Pirates were like starting the conversation with Holsway Brussino,
30:05
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, dude, Like I don't know how how
30:08
Speaker 1: seriously I I could have those conversations when that's when
30:11
Speaker 1: when that's kind of like the start there. So uh,
30:16
Speaker 1: the theories of Scott Harris are winners. The practicality we
30:20
Speaker 1: will see, but the theories of Scott Harris are winners.
30:22
Speaker 1: That's where I land on it right now.
30:24
Speaker 2: M hm, Well, the theory has always made sense, I
30:28
Speaker 2: think to not overspin for voldeor believers, that makes complete
30:32
Speaker 2: sense in like in like a vacuum. And I don't know,
30:37
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about like trading commodities or like
30:40
Speaker 2: the stock market like that is very far from my
30:43
Speaker 2: area of expertise. My theory is that these are different things.
30:48
Speaker 2: Like the long term to get the best value is
30:52
Speaker 2: to like play it a little safe, right, You're gonna
30:56
Speaker 2: make You're gonna make a lot of money. You know.
30:58
Speaker 2: If you go with the commodity these you know, perform well,
31:02
Speaker 2: then maybe you're not going boom or bust and trying
31:06
Speaker 2: to get into oil and gas and build rigs, you
31:09
Speaker 2: know in West Texas or something like that. But this
31:12
Speaker 2: is a competitive industry where you're not necessarily judged on
31:15
Speaker 2: how many games you win over an eight year period.
31:18
Speaker 2: Or judge on like do you have a ring? Do
31:20
Speaker 2: you have a pennant? And so I think that is
31:24
Speaker 2: the difference, and that has been the leaning like the
31:29
Speaker 2: Jerry Depoto fifty four percent of games or whatever that
31:33
Speaker 2: maybe Jerry's finally done with because he was pretty aggressive
31:36
Speaker 2: at this deadline. That that mentality has been the undoing
31:40
Speaker 2: of a lot of front offices in the past eight
31:43
Speaker 2: years or so, i'd say posts since everyone started trying
31:47
Speaker 2: to copy the Astros, no one has become the Astros.
31:52
Speaker 2: I don't know how this. I don't know how this
31:54
Speaker 2: is gonna work out. I'm not saying this isn't gonna
31:56
Speaker 2: work I'm but let's finished September. Let's get into October.
32:03
Speaker 2: Because if the Tigers bullpen has a terrible Alds, you
32:06
Speaker 2: know who, everyone's gonna blame fan Wise and gona blame
32:09
Speaker 2: Scott Harris, and it might might not be wrong. I
32:14
Speaker 2: almost have a feeling, Kieran, the Tigers bullpen was so
32:17
Speaker 2: bad in June and July that I feel like it's
32:18
Speaker 2: almost probably due for a better August and September at
32:21
Speaker 2: least one of those months that just seems like baseball.
32:25
Speaker 2: So does that mean he used to trade dead, like,
32:28
Speaker 2: I don't know. Let's just see how all this ends
32:29
Speaker 2: up and we can talk about it later. Same with
32:32
Speaker 2: the Yankees. They got three dudes, Are they gonna be
32:35
Speaker 2: any good? I don't know. Let's not judge it after
32:37
Speaker 2: one weekend. Let's let's.
32:41
Speaker 1: Let's get a bigger we see how it plays out.
32:44
Speaker 1: I think another way of saying what you just described,
32:46
Speaker 1: there is four one k's are undefeated, but for a
32:51
Speaker 1: one k's don't buy yuts, you know, so like you know,
32:56
Speaker 1: like venture capitalists, you know, they don't. They don't get
33:00
Speaker 1: to where they're at by cashing in on their four
33:01
Speaker 1: one k take risks, take big risks, and you don't.
33:04
Speaker 1: They don't always work out. And and I think that's.
33:07
Speaker 2: Not necessarily financial advice. People. I think your company match,
33:13
Speaker 2: call it good?
33:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, set and forget it.
33:17
Speaker 2: Uh So we're supposed to say you should go, uh
33:20
Speaker 2: put all your money in draft gings? Is that what
33:22
Speaker 2: we're supposed to say?
33:23
Speaker 1: As long as he used foul so hotline?
33:26
Speaker 2: Hope I don't forget so, like.
33:31
Speaker 1: I think there is, there's gonna be obviously various aspects.
33:35
Speaker 1: And maybe that's why hendefy hand if he goes down.
33:37
Speaker 1: It's like he's your co reliever of the month, but
33:39
Speaker 1: your bullpen sucks. So maybe that was that was actually
33:41
Speaker 1: quite fitting that that that he's that he's the one
33:44
Speaker 1: that goes down. But I I do believe that markets
33:50
Speaker 1: matter and and these trades are not These trade or
33:54
Speaker 1: trade ideas are not done in the vacuum. And I
33:57
Speaker 1: also think that had they given up some sort of
34:00
Speaker 1: package that rivaled the Padres for Mason Miller, there'd be
34:04
Speaker 1: a lot of people upset.
34:06
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, but they could they could have done
34:09
Speaker 2: the right now trade, Like.
34:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Some of those prospects, like you know,
34:16
Speaker 1: it depends on your measurement's top one hundred stuff? Is
34:19
Speaker 1: it is?
34:20
Speaker 2: It?
34:20
Speaker 1: Is it? Like you know break Oh, it's their fifth
34:22
Speaker 1: ranked prospect, but they're the twentieth ranked farm system. These
34:27
Speaker 1: are just general, not specific to the Ryan trade. I
34:30
Speaker 1: don't know. It's a very disagreeable approach, but also one
34:35
Speaker 1: that makes sense.
34:35
Speaker 2: That's why some people think that Tigers are just going
34:37
Speaker 2: on the model. I mean they plug these names into
34:40
Speaker 2: something that's the equivalent of a spreadsheet and then tells
34:42
Speaker 2: you whether you should do the trade or not. I
34:45
Speaker 2: can't say definitively if that's how the Tigers do. If
34:47
Speaker 2: there are people in the game who think that they
34:49
Speaker 2: are letting the model run the trade deadline, and there's
34:52
Speaker 2: a famous handed out like the Verlander trade from the
34:55
Speaker 2: Tigers to the Astros was rejected by Houston's model spothally,
35:00
Speaker 2: and Houston was the team that was running things on
35:05
Speaker 2: models back then. When they got to the point where
35:09
Speaker 2: it was time to win a World Series, they went
35:11
Speaker 2: against the model. Not only did they win the World
35:14
Speaker 2: Series arguably tainted World Series, they won the trade too,
35:19
Speaker 2: because all the Tigers got out of that was Jakie Rodgers.
35:22
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's wrap up this way. How much should
35:24
Speaker 1: Tigers fans care about things like that you report and
35:29
Speaker 1: is out there with other people about how difficult Harrison
35:33
Speaker 1: Company are. How much should how much should that be
35:39
Speaker 1: like dominate you know, their frontal lobe about how they
35:42
Speaker 1: feel about their president of baseball operations, because I almost
35:45
Speaker 1: think like, I don't care. I don't really care about
35:49
Speaker 1: that because the people that are that are putting that
35:52
Speaker 1: out there are people who are dissatisfied with how they
35:56
Speaker 1: had dealings with a competitor.
35:58
Speaker 2: You see what I said, I think that's worth noting
36:00
Speaker 2: people who are also saying that about Craig Breslo and
36:03
Speaker 2: who was I think there was a third, a third
36:06
Speaker 2: president of Baseball Operations. And I'm sure all these things
36:09
Speaker 2: are true to some degree. Again, like it's being a
36:13
Speaker 2: hard negotiator is not necessarily a bad trait in this game.
36:18
Speaker 2: What is the line between being a tough negotiator and
36:21
Speaker 2: like burning bridges with other clubs or getting to the
36:25
Speaker 2: point where other teams don't even want to call you,
36:27
Speaker 2: Or if you watch the broadcast Sunday night here and
36:30
Speaker 2: they're talking about Dave Dombrowski and how he's on the
36:33
Speaker 2: road all the time more than most gms and builds
36:36
Speaker 2: relationships with opposing clubs. So like, I think these things
36:41
Speaker 2: you can assign whatever value you want to them. I
36:45
Speaker 2: think you would have to ask the individual fans how
36:48
Speaker 2: much it matters. The Tigers build a dynasty because they
36:51
Speaker 2: kept all the prospects and they win a bunch of
36:53
Speaker 2: World Series, no one's gonna care. But if it goes
36:55
Speaker 2: the other way, we're gonna look back and we're then
36:58
Speaker 2: all the things you hear over the years start really
37:01
Speaker 2: adding up. Like that's that's just how it works. I
37:04
Speaker 2: don't know. That's really all I've got to say on it,
37:07
Speaker 2: because I'm just going to make people on both sides mad.
37:10
Speaker 2: I keep talking about this, I just say what I've
37:12
Speaker 2: heard every single trade deadline in the Harris era, and
37:16
Speaker 2: it seems to be getting louder, it seems to be
37:18
Speaker 2: getting worse. But guess what, Scott Harris has also built
37:22
Speaker 2: a very healthy organization. Regardless of what the Tigers do
37:25
Speaker 2: this year, you can't say he's not done a good
37:28
Speaker 2: job in Detroit. He's obviously turned this thing around and
37:31
Speaker 2: turned this thing around pretty quick. But this is also
37:33
Speaker 2: where it gets tough. When you have built a healthy
37:36
Speaker 2: organization and then the expectations get higher, that's when it
37:40
Speaker 2: gets hard. And that's the test Scott Harris face, isn't it?
37:44
Speaker 1: No accusations of incompetence? And also, you know what, I'll
37:51
Speaker 1: just wrap it up this way. History is written by
37:54
Speaker 1: the victors.
37:56
Speaker 2: You get it.
37:56
Speaker 1: Done, you get it done, and nobody's gonna care. So
38:00
Speaker 1: a lot of fun, a lot of fun theoretical, still
38:03
Speaker 1: kind of emotionally reeling from the trade deadline, and we
38:06
Speaker 1: still haven't seen a lot of the new pieces, so
38:09
Speaker 1: I'm sure it won't be the last time that we
38:11
Speaker 1: reflect on this, and again, as you pointed out earlier,
38:14
Speaker 1: it's going to be something that shapes the perception of
38:16
Speaker 1: the season depending on how it all plays out. So
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Speaker 1: I want to thank everybody for listening, following us on
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Speaker 1: x proman on his Twitter at Cody Stavenhagen, I am
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Speaker 1: at Kierano of course, Declee pot Page at Tiger Territory, Underscore, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Apple, Spotify.
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Speaker 1: You guys know the drill, you know what to do.
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Speaker 1: We appreciate all of you. So for Cody Stavenhagen, I'm
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Speaker 1: Kieren Steckley. Everybody have great thing