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KC Gooding: A Driving Force in Addiction Recovery & Marketing Leadership · Finding New Waters

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  If we are going to have success in their recovery will come as a
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  result of their experiences together in the relationship
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  that they make with each other. Another thing that, you know, we
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  talk about here is how do we find joy?
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  You know, we have guys that haven't been, haven't
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  experienced any true joy in years, decades sometimes, right?
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  Like they don't know what it's like to find joy.
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  They're scared of it. They're holding on to the
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  substance because that's the only thing that provides that
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  sense of release and comfort, and they don't know what life
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  looks like on the other side of that.
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  Good afternoon. My name is Graham Dergie and I'm
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  the Founder and CEO of New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, NC
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  Welcome to our weekly podcast, Finding New Waters.
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  Our goal in creating Finding New Waters is to provide a resource
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  for families to help navigate the complexities of supporting a
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  loved 1 struggling with substance use or mental health.
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  When we find ourselves in crisis due to one of these issues, most
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  people have no idea where to turn.
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  We hope to shed some light under what is often the darkest hour
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  for many families. Hey, doing everybody.
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  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Finding New
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  Waters. My name is Justin McLennan,
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  Executive Director here at New Waters Recovery.
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  I'm joined by Ryan Jarrell, our Continuing Care Coordinator.
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  And then our guest today is no other than Casey Gooding, who is
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  the Chief Marketing Officer with Jay Walker Lodge and Jay Walker
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  is out in it's Colorado, yeah, Carbondale Co.
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  There we go. So Casey, I always like to start
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  this out if you if you're OK with it and maybe just I'm
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  curious as to always you know what brought people into the
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  field, right. So maybe just, you know what?
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  What got you interested in working in this field and and
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  where has that led you, I guess? Well, that's a funny story with
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  me. I mean, and I think it starts
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  with, you know, a lot of guys that do the work and
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  professionals that do this work start with their own personal
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  story of recovery. You know, I'm an alcoholic and
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  an addict. I've been sober since
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  11/29/2012, at which time my family provided an opportunity
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  for me to join them on this. Thing we know is recovery.
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  You know, I was 35 years old, not doing much in life.
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  I couldn't rub 2 nickels together.
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  I managed to make it that far in my life.
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  But in 2012 I was supported with the opportunity to enter
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  treatment. I stayed in Southern California
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  where I went to treatment for you know, so a good amount of
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  time I ended up staying there a decade.
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  But initially it was go through treatment to create a a recovery
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  community, get a sponsor, work the steps and launch into
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  recovery. And as far as being a
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  professional in the behavioral healthcare space, you know to be
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  completely honest with you guys, I did not really want to work in
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  this field. Reason being is when I first
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  went to treatment I saw people that were working in tech
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  positions and I had a who's not my wife and I wasn't going to be
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  a live in sober living manager or a behavioral healthcare tech.
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  And I saw a lot of people that worked in the therapeutic
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  components and I wasn't going to go back to school and become a
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  therapist. Additionally, I didn't see a lot
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  of people that were staying sober that were working in the
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  field. You know a lot of those tax
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  would get involved in the treatment business relatively
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  early in their recovery and we'd see them back in the meetings
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  taking newcomer chips. And so for me it was a little
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  bit scary and there was obviously I was getting sober in
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  a very treatment saturated area in Southern California.
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  So a lot of treatment around me, but not something necessarily
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  that I was very vestly interested in until I had about
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  two years of recovery and I found out that there were people
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  that do admissions and marketing and business development.
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  That kind of coincided with a lot of the skills, personal
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  skills that I had. And a friend of mine was working
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  at a a treatment program who invited me to speak with his
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  boss and one thing led to another and here I am, 10 years
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  later. That's great, man.
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  That's great. I can really empathize with
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  that. I think just and I we both, we
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  were on the other side of the country in South Florida and I
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  think it's a very similar kind of environment where there's
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  there's a lot of treatment and not a lot of recovery and it's
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  an unfortunate thing to see kind of kind of unfold around you.
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  It can definitely leave a sour taste in your mouth.
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  Regarding the industry, that's right for sure.
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  For sure. I mean a lot of good treatment,
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  a lot of very average treatment and some poor treatment, right?
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  And so you have a melting pot of individuals that are coming from
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  every different area. I mean, in that community very
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  rarely did I find somebody that was like a native California and
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  and lived there their whole life and was engaged in the recovery
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  community there. Although there were a few, you
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  know, my best friends were from New York City and Air Ho in
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  different places like that. And you know, that's what ended
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  up becoming my recovery community that was about me
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  there eventually. That's awesome.
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  That's awesome. And when did you or how long
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  have you been with, with Jay Walker?
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  So I've been with Jay Walker for the last year and a half.
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  I, you know, I started my behavioral healthcare career in
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  2014 in Southern California, worked for an outpatient program
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  called 449. I did that for about two years.
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  I worked for five years at a program called New Method
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  Wellness in San Juan Capistrano. And then the year prior to me
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  coming here to to Jaywalker, I lived.
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  I worked on the National business Development team for
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  Burning Tree programs. So in May of 2022, my wife and I
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  packed up a U-Haul in Dana Point, CA and drove right here
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  to Aspen. And you know, we live here close
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  to the program at Jaywalker in Carbondale, Co now.
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  That's awesome, man. That's awesome.
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  So we know of jaywalker, but anybody who's listening or
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  watching the podcast episode, I'd love for you to have an
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  opportunity to just talk a little bit about what is
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  jaywalker services kind of population, all that good stuff.
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  Yeah. So you might even ask like,
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  golly, you know, you're living in Dana Point, CA.
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  You've created a recovery community there.
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  You've got 10 Sponsees and you're doing this for
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  everything. And you've, you know, planted
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  your flag in Southern Cloud, California.
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  What would be so riveting that you would be willing to pack up
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  your entire life, everything you know, on an opportunity to go to
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  some small mountain town of 7000 people located in the Western
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  slope of Colorado, right. And you know, that's exactly
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  what it was for me though. You know, I I think everything
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  that has transpired in my recovery and my journey as a
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  behavioral healthcare professional prepared me to take
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  on the challenge that's that was awaiting for me here in
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  Carbondale. Reason really simply is, you
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  know, through all those years of being a young professional in
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  this field, I was mentored by some of the best and most
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  wonderful people in our field. Bob Ferguson, who is the owner
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  of a Jaywalker Lodge being 1, Gary Fisher, the Executive
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  Director of Circle Lodge being another one.
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  And, you know, Doug Lyons, owner and principal founder of Clear
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  Consulting, were three guys that I always really looked up to.
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  You know, it was awesome. Last weekend we were in Los
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  Angeles, all three, all four of us were together.
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  And I got to take a picture, you know, and I think that us is I
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  hope that other people that are in our field value the
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  importance of having strong mentorship.
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  You know, when I got sober, I didn't do it by myself.
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  I had a sponsor. I had a community of people that
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  supported me. And being in the profession
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  we're in, it's so important to keep yourself healthy and have
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  other people that you can rely on to support you through this
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  journey. So that kind of position started
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  with my relationship with Bobby, who is the owner here.
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  And there was an opportunity that the chief marketing officer
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  here, who had been employed here for about 11 years was leaving
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  to start his own organization. And you know, I called Bobby
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  very organically. I wanted to check in with him on
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  see how things were here. And we started just having a
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  conversation on what that might look like.
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  And you know, to be fair and transparent, you know, my wife
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  wasn't overly excited about leaving this little village by
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  the sea that we had this surf town that we were so comfortable
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  in. But with you know enough, you
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  know leverage and and support from the leadership team and and
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  the community here at Jaywalker we came out and were convinced
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  rather quickly what we found here it was something entirely
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  different than what we had experienced in California.
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  We found very authentic people that were committed to this
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  purpose that they have here at Jay Walker, very, very talented
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  individuals working at a program that can.
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  This wasn't a start up. This was a a proven commodity
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  that has an excellent track record for success rates and a
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  legacy of excellence over a long term time in our field.
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  So coming in, you know I had to get up to speed in regards of
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  you know what are the things that make Jaywalker so special
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  or so important. So you know here at Jaywalker a
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  little bit about who we typically support, right.
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  You know a lot of our guys, they've been to a couple 30 day
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  treatment episodes. They're really good at recovery,
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  a really good at treatment and really bad at recovery.
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  Somehow, someway they have, you know, went into, you know, high
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  containment environment programs and done very successful.
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  They're everybody's favorite client.
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  They're the guy that Ryan's stoke to get to the next spot
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  because they just are sure that he's going to be successful.
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  And then then he's the same guy that comes back a month later,
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  right? And you're like what happened
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  and you know and so overwhelmingly you know almost
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  all of the guys that that come to Jay Walker are they have an
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  addiction professional such as your guys's selves, such as many
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  people that we work with throughout the nation that is
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  profoundly committed to the well-being of not only the
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  individual that they're supporting with the
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  recommendation of Jay Walker, but the family that supports
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  them. And you know, I think what's
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  really great about this thing is it's a 7000 person town.
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  It's been as almost a 20 year track record or history and we
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  have about 400 men that live in the Roaring Fork Valley that are
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  graduates of our program, that are participating in our alumni
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  program in our active part of what we do here.
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  And so that is really like the secret sauce is like this
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  thing's been built here. It's a destination, it's a
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  sticky zip code. It provides a lifestyle that
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  young men in recovery can come out and build a life in recovery
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  with a recovery community, with brothers, with the support of a
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  really world class staff. They can find their joy, they
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  can find their purpose, they can find their meaning.
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  The way that we do it is over 5 different levels of care that
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  span across an entire year's continuum.
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  So most of our guys are coming out, There's some level of
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  stability. They've been through detox.
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  They go through a resident jaywalker with the support of
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  the program or individuals and professionals that are
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  supporting them and most importantly the support of their
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  family that is walking through this journey with them.
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  You know they started our landing program where they have
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  an opportunity to kind of be integrated into our environment.
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  We have a triple board certified psychiatrist, man in long term
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  recovery and medical director named credit with Sean also
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  known as a Unicorn. Not too many psychiatrists meet
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  the same standards as him, but he's a great he does
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  psychiatric, psychiatric evaluations for the individuals
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  entering the program. We have GAIL Matheson, who is a
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  psychiatric mental health health nurse practitioner.
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  She has a son who went through our program about eight years
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  ago. So not only is she extremely
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  qualified, but she understands intimately as a parent what it's
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  like to have your son here. And then Stefan Bait is our
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  Chief Clinical Officer and he overseas our entire clinical
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  team across all programs and he manages a really
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  multidisciplinary clinical team utilizing multiple different
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  clinical modalities to support our individuals through the
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  treatment process. In the landing, they stay there
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  for 7 to 28 days depending on their level of stability and
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  then they transition into our primary lodge program, which is
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  kind of the staple program what everybody thinks of of Jay
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  Walker. If you get on our website,
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  you'll see a really cool building in the middle of
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  Carbondale, Co. It's got a really cool mural on
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  it. It's an iconic building.
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  Professionals that come out and see us always want their picture
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  taken in front of it and that's where kind of you have the
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  opportunity to change, right. And So what we've created as a
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  result of being in where we're at, we're not in a seclusion
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  from life's. We're not using containment as
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  an agency for change here. We're in the midst of a little
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  mountain town on Main Street. And So what we have there is an
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  open community model of care. So our guys are doing an equal
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  amount of clinical services, group individual therapies in an
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  equal amount of arts and cultural or outdoor recreation.
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  You know, as a result of our proximity.
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  And you know in one look at our website, you'll see these
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  amazing experiences that our men get to engage in a daily basis.
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  And I can tell you after being here for over a year and a half,
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  I'm simply just amazed every single day of what kind of
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  experience these men get here at Jaywalker Lodge.
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  I would say unlike a lot of other programs, we've talked a
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  little bit about the psychiatric components.
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  We've talked about, you know, the clinical professionals that
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  are supporting them. Here at Jaywalker Lodge, we have
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  a Wellness director and an activities and expedition team
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  that's employed full time to support our men on a daily
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  schedule. They typically have three to
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  four different activities that they can in fishing, golfing,
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  hiking, snowboarding, skiing, arts, museums, acting, theme,
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  whatever it might be. We want to support our men in
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  creating a life of joy, abundance and meaning.
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  Everything is done. Yeah, everything that's done
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  here is really in line with what we believe in.
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  You know, we believe that addiction treatment should not
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  be a consequence of your past, rather a promise of your future,
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  of a life in active addiction. They're afraid of what it looks
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  like on the other side of it. And So what we need to do is
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  show them how to live a life of joy, how to experience that in
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  community with other people. Because if we can't show the
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  guys how to have fun, they'll never know what the other side
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  looks like. Absolutely.
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  I mean, that's that's pretty amazing.
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  And I mean. You know I think just some of
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  the things that you said I mean snowboarding hiking you know
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  getting to engage in like arts and and culture.
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  I mean that sounds that sounds amazing because to your point I
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  think that's a lot about about what recovery has to be about
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  right is is is learning to live life right and and and to you
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  know kind of break the chains of bondage as I as I like to think
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  about it and and learn how to to live a a life that's you know
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  joyous and free right. Absolutely.
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  And I think the thing we talk about a lot is how do we equate
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  a treatment episode into a recovery experience.
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  And that's what we specialize in here.
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  It's like, yes, many of us, we go into treatment experiences,
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  we go into treatment episodes. You know, those last for a
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  duration. But with the missing component
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  is how do we create recovery out of that treatment episode.
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  So not utilizing a lot of policing, not utilizing a lot of
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  levels of containment, offering high levels of individual agency
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  and enrollment is how we're able to have an effective difference
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  in the men we support. As someone who has worked in a
• 16:54
  similar setting, I think that's something that is so relieving
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  to the client but sometimes so terrifying to the family.
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  So I was wondering, you know, kind of what, what kind of
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  family programming do you guys provide, especially since you're
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  dealing with young men over such a long period of time?
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  Yeah. You know the family component,
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  it is, you know, we talk about agents of change.
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  You know, I think there's a couple things that that we all
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  believe is professionals that provide better results.
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  I mean you guys at New Waters have a great clinical staff and
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  they're a part of that. And you know us at Jaywalker the
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  same. And I think we all know that the
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  longer you can keep an individual committed to quality
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  services, the higher level of success that we're going to
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  find, right. That's that's pretty proven for
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  us. The overwhelming largest
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  component to create changes, the involvement of the family system
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  throughout the treatment process and recovery.
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  So we know what it's going to look like for the individual
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  when it's here. We've got a program that
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  supports that, man. It's, you know, it's it's an
• 17:54
  individualized program within a community setting.
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  But we need to talk with families about how they
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  participate in that journey. So about 70% of our guys that
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  come here are referred from a different professional.
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  That means an interventionist. It could be a program like New
• 18:10
  Waters, but 100% of the families that we support, we want engaged
• 18:14
  in some form of work on their own, which means we're going to
• 18:17
  recommend that they engage in the support of an addiction
• 18:20
  professional LCSWLMFTA family case management organization
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  that is doing their part to educate and support the family
• 18:29
  throughout the process of recovery, getting them on
• 18:32
  consent here so our team can create a collaborative approach
• 18:35
  with the family consultant ensuring that everybody's taking
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  measures towards their own personal recovery.
• 18:42
  Now Jay Walker, we're going to do a little bit more in the
• 18:46
  family system work than most programs because we're a long
• 18:49
  term program. And So what that looks like
• 18:51
  typically is you know pre admissions we're doing a lot of
• 18:55
  background work asking the families for BIOS and timelines
• 18:59
  associated with their perspective of their loved one
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  so that our clinical team is supported with accurate
• 19:04
  information that they can understand the challenges within
• 19:08
  the system so that we can recommend the appropriate
• 19:10
  professional to work with the family.
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  We're also going to do a lot of family workshops.
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  So each week our family therapist Lenny Bulliers doing
• 19:21
  zoom workshops with families, providing psychoeducation and
• 19:25
  additional support from here at Jaywalker there's weekly touches
• 19:28
  with the family from our clinical team providing updates
• 19:31
  on their loved ones. And those aren't just updates
• 19:34
  regarding their loved ones, those are actually check
• 19:37
  insurance to ask the family how they're doing with the work.
• 19:40
  We send out family contracts with families prior to
• 19:44
  admission. Do you agree that you're going
• 19:46
  to participate in your loved ones treatment episode?
• 19:49
  We want you to sign this information and send it back to
• 19:52
  us. There needs to be a good amount
• 19:54
  of accountability on behalf of the family members because if we
• 19:57
  identify this as a family systems disease, it does require
• 20:01
  components of work for all members of the family, not just
• 20:03
  the guy that's in Carrot Jaywalker.
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  On top of that we have family weekends that come up and we
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  invite all families to come. Last last family group that we
• 20:14
  had, we had twelve families. 90% of our guys are from outside of
• 20:19
  the General Colorado area they're coming from.
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  You know, North Carolina, they're coming from Florida, you
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  know, New York, California, Texas.
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  And the families are coming here to have that experience.
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  They get that experience with their loved one.
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  They get that experience with other families in.
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  And it's a really powerful thing to see their loved one in a new
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  way when they come here to meet them.
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  And then more importantly, I mean or equally of importance,
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  recently we've launched alumni family support groups and those
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  are available via Zoom to all of our alumni families, whether you
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  were here 19 years ago or you have a loved 1 enrolled in Care
• 20:57
  now. And So what we do is we operate
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  that as a Zoom group bimonthly. And then we ask much like you
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  guys are doing here, we ask other professional organizations
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  to come in Group, facility, different experience or
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  perspective. So we believe that this thing
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  works the best when we have the whole family engaged in the
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  process of doing the work, supporting their loved one in
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  joining each other on the road to recovery.
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  Yeah, couldn't agree more. Absolutely.
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  You know, that kind of brings up a question.
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  I'm always interested because we deal with the same thing, right?
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  And we completely agree with that statement in that.
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  I think a lot of times you see families and I think a lot of
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  it's just a lack of understanding, a lack of
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  experience with this and and also just being in a place of
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  just operating out of fear and just really not knowing what to
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  do and just only being able to rely on what they feel like is
• 21:51
  going to work. So I think you know, to your
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  point, Casey, I think. Getting the family on board with
• 21:57
  the process and helping them understand you know what their
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  role can kind of start to look like is just is crucially
• 22:03
  important in the treatment process and the, you know,
• 22:06
  overall excess success I think of of the client.
• 22:09
  But the question that comes up for me is, you know, I'm just
• 22:12
  curious how, how do you deal with that or or what do you
• 22:15
  think would be something that you would say to that family
• 22:18
  member on that early end of recovery where they're, you
• 22:21
  know, they're operating out of fear, they don't know what to
• 22:23
  do? What's kind of what comes up for
• 22:25
  you? What would be something that
• 22:26
  you'd want to communicate to them?
• 22:28
  Well, you know, the best story is my own personal story.
• 22:30
  I mean, I think that's where I get to draw most of the
• 22:32
  interest, right, is that, you know, my family did what I'm
• 22:37
  hopeful that you're willing to do right to a good result.
• 22:40
  This is what it looked like. My family made changes that
• 22:44
  promoted my change. You know, a lot of times our
• 22:47
  families are engaged. They're, you know, operating out
• 22:50
  of fear as one would say. They're constantly responding to
• 22:54
  the crisis that their loved ones creating in their lives, right.
• 22:58
  Most of our men are completely dependent on their families in
• 23:01
  the family system is almost turn inverted.
• 23:04
  What we need to do is help them, empower them to make decisions
• 23:08
  that are based on the clinical best interest of the family and
• 23:11
  their loved one. And a lot of times there is
• 23:13
  profound uncomfortability in doing that because we've been
• 23:16
  used to a system that has been dysfunctional, right?
• 23:19
  So we're trying to flip the script.
• 23:21
  And so the best thing that I can do is kind of tell the story.
• 23:24
  I'm not absolutely convinced. Had they not stepped in, I would
• 23:27
  have been the first one to pass. I was much worse than all my
• 23:31
  friends that are now deceased. And you know, I may have been
• 23:35
  the only one who had the opportunity to find recovery as
• 23:39
  a result of my family's unconditional love and
• 23:43
  commitment to me as their son. So, you know, we utilize a lot
• 23:49
  of different components to encourage them.
• 23:50
  We try and leverage in a way, we try and identify, you know, what
• 23:54
  leverage is or implement boundaries.
• 23:57
  But more importantly, we're just trying to get them to make a
• 24:00
  call with enrolling in someone who can be there to support
• 24:04
  them. What we don't want to have
• 24:06
  happen is them to constantly be in a position where they are not
• 24:12
  making the best decisions in support of their loved one and
• 24:15
  then holding themselves hostage as a result of poor outcomes
• 24:19
  based on those decisions. Absolutely.
• 24:23
  I think so, so many times what it is and it seems so basic,
• 24:27
  right. But it's it's we have to move
• 24:29
  away from the framework that what we're dealing with is an
• 24:31
  individual's moral failing and what we're dealing with is a
• 24:34
  disease and and a systemic issue and if you can make that
• 24:37
  perception shift, which is. It's so difficult but so basic.
• 24:42
  You know, I've seen amazing kind of outcomes follow, but until
• 24:45
  that happens, it's just never going to happen, you know.
• 24:48
  But people think it's the same thing as a teenager leaving
• 24:50
  their shoes in the living room every day, you know, And we're
• 24:53
  just, we're dealing with a different issue, something so
• 24:56
  profound. And I I really applaud you guys
• 24:58
  for really taking the time to do that.
• 25:00
  You know, Casey, I, as someone who was kind of an outsider from
• 25:04
  this thing, like I would see, you know?
• 25:07
  Experiential stuff. And honestly, I would kind of
• 25:09
  like, you know, raise my eyebrow like I got sober and I can't
• 25:12
  snowboard, you know what I mean? So like, wait, what?
• 25:15
  What is the value of that? And I think working in this
• 25:18
  industry, I got to see this kind of experiential element and and
• 25:21
  really the change it could make in young men's lives.
• 25:23
  I was hoping you could talk about what is the role that
• 25:25
  experiential therapy plays in Jaywalker and and how important
• 25:29
  you think that is? Yeah, I mean I think that you
• 25:34
  know, we talk about this disease.
• 25:36
  I mean and that's a a great segue into what this is, what
• 25:39
  does that disease necessarily look like, right?
• 25:42
  We see a lot of isolation, separation from family system,
• 25:46
  separation from peers, a lot of reclusivity, those kind of
• 25:50
  things. That's what progressive and
• 25:52
  fatal illness looks like typically.
• 25:55
  And so you know what we have here at Jaywalker in our primary
• 25:59
  program, there's typically about 20 men and we're really focused
• 26:02
  on them creating authentic peer driven relationships with each
• 26:06
  other. So how does that happen?
• 26:08
  Right. And so when I've got 10 minutes
• 26:11
  to sit with Justin and we're on a chairlift and we are hurt, you
• 26:15
  know, we got nothing else to do except for just to talk each
• 26:18
  other and check in. You know what I mean?
• 26:20
  Like, how can you and I create an authentic relationship with
• 26:23
  each other? Well, I've got a captive
• 26:25
  audience for 10 minutes, 20 times a day, and it's going to
• 26:28
  be Justin, it's going to be me, it's going to be me, it's going
• 26:31
  to be Ryan, it's going to be all the guys that I'm engaged in
• 26:34
  this thing with. So we're really about trying to
• 26:37
  create a community of individuals.
• 26:39
  We understand that at a certain point, if this thing is going to
• 26:43
  work, it'll be based on the relationships that I make with
• 26:46
  Justin and Ryan in my time at Jaywalker.
• 26:49
  They create that recovery community about me because even
• 26:52
  with a long term program like Jaywalker, treatment doesn't
• 26:56
  last forever. In fact, you know our primary
• 26:58
  program is 90 days and then they step down into a transitional
• 27:02
  program and they continue to work on developing those
• 27:05
  relationships with their peers and then they step into
• 27:07
  independent living and outpatient services and they do
• 27:11
  that and they can stay all the way up to a year.
• 27:13
  But we're in the belief that recovery happens outside of
• 27:17
  treatment and that's what's going to happen.
• 27:19
  Certainly clinically, psychiatrically we can process,
• 27:24
  we can do therapy that will support their deeper issues that
• 27:29
  are taking place. But if we are going to have
• 27:32
  success in their recovery will come as a result of their
• 27:36
  experiences together in the relationship that they make with
• 27:38
  each other. Another thing that you know we
• 27:41
  talk about here is how do we find joy?
• 27:44
  You know, we have guys that haven't been, haven't
• 27:47
  experienced any true joy in years, decades sometimes, right?
• 27:51
  Like, they don't know what it's like to find joy.
• 27:54
  They're scared of it. They're holding on to the
• 27:56
  substance because that's the only thing that provides that
• 27:59
  sense of release and comfort, and they don't know what life
• 28:03
  looks like on the other side of that.
• 28:04
  So what are some things that you love to do when you were a kid?
• 28:07
  Well, I really like to go skiing with my family.
• 28:10
  I like to go to Dairy Queen and get a nice ice cream cone dipped
• 28:13
  in sprinkled with chocolate, you know?
• 28:16
  And hey, let's go do that at Jay Walker, right?
• 28:19
  Let's take you down the street. Let's walk down the street in
• 28:21
  freedom, not in, not in seclusion, not in high security
• 28:26
  like it. Enroll you in the process of
• 28:28
  doing this, show you something different.
• 28:30
  Engage with a community of individuals that have a lot, a
• 28:35
  lot of relative life experience. A lot of our guys are, you know,
• 28:40
  the really successful mom or dad.
• 28:42
  They've got brothers and sisters who are valedictorians and have
• 28:45
  launched into life and been successful.
• 28:47
  And our guy is sitting there in a life of guilt and shame and
• 28:51
  reclusivity and isolation. You know, we need to fight that
• 28:55
  with something that can overcome that.
• 28:57
  The power of the community in the experience that they have
• 29:00
  together is what we're betting on for them to overcome where
• 29:04
  they've been. Absolutely, completely agree
• 29:08
  with that. And it's true, I mean so
• 29:10
  similar. I have some experience in my
• 29:12
  past early in my career I worked in not the same but you know
• 29:15
  similar kind of set up. And it's true.
• 29:18
  I think it's true across all age bands, demographics.
• 29:22
  I mean when we're talking about somebody who is struggling with
• 29:24
  the disease of addiction or other you know forms of these
• 29:28
  types of afflictions, right. I I think it's very true.
• 29:30
  I think it is is very much a disease of of isolation and and
• 29:34
  bondage and and being deprived of of feeling.
• 29:38
  You know hope and and peace and and and I couldn't agree with
• 29:42
  you more Casey. I think the formulation of those
• 29:44
  relationships and being able to slowly dip our toes back into
• 29:48
  you know what it feels like to to not have to live that way
• 29:51
  right and but to to you know experience a little taste of joy
• 29:54
  here and there. I mean long term I think that is
• 29:57
  the for me in my opinion. I think that is the the
• 30:01
  ingredient that is so crucial for success.
• 30:04
  You know, just learning how to. How to form those relationships,
• 30:06
  How to engage with other people, How to, you know, pursue and
• 30:10
  understand the things that are going to bring us happiness in
• 30:12
  our life. KC, I'm curious, you get all
• 30:16
  this freedom, How do you guys deal with the return potential
• 30:19
  returns to use? And you know, I think that's
• 30:21
  sometimes a by a byproduct in a very real reality when you're
• 30:25
  when you're dealing with a more open treatment situation.
• 30:27
  Yeah, it's a good question. It's something that we engage
• 30:30
  with like almost every time we have professionals come and
• 30:33
  visit our community. I will say it happens a lot less
• 30:36
  than one might think, especially considering that we're treating
• 30:39
  really what would be known as a chronic relapse patient.
• 30:43
  A lot of times we have plenty of guys that are in their first
• 30:46
  treatment experience. We have guys that have been 5 to
• 30:49
  10. Those kinds of things suffer
• 30:52
  from some pretty heavy Co occurring mental health
• 30:54
  diagnosis. That's why we have, you know,
• 30:58
  the psychiatric components that we have and in therapeutic
• 31:01
  modalities that we employ. It has to do with, you know,
• 31:06
  another bet that we're placing this is in, you know, this is a
• 31:10
  high risk, high reward situation that we have a Jane Walker that
• 31:13
  makes it very, very unique. Right next to our lodge program
• 31:17
  is a pizza parlor in bar down the street from our, our
• 31:23
  treatment program. Literally, you know, 500 Yards
• 31:27
  is a marijuana dispensary. 200 Yards the other way is a liquor
• 31:32
  store. All right, So our men are
• 31:34
  literally getting up in the morning, they're in, going out
• 31:37
  into the community, they're walking to the yoga studio and
• 31:40
  walking right past the liquor store.
• 31:42
  A lot of them that are, you know, alcohol is their primary
• 31:45
  drug of choice. You know, we're leveraging the
• 31:49
  autonomy, We're leveraging the the relationships they have that
• 31:57
  their relationships with their peers could be so important and
• 32:00
  something that they've missed in yearned for so long that the
• 32:05
  obsession to use and go to the liquor store is superseded by
• 32:09
  their need to be a part of something that's, you know, one
• 32:13
  of the main components. But we also have a full
• 32:15
  continuum of care here with many different levels of, you know,
• 32:20
  security or you know, stabilization, those kind of
• 32:24
  things. And a lot of times what we see
• 32:26
  is specifically in that patient that's been to five to 10
• 32:29
  treatment programs is they go to residential treatment, they go
• 32:33
  to PHPIOP and sober living. They do that for like a month.
• 32:37
  They relapse and they start all the way over.
• 32:39
  They go to a new program, they start that process, they do it
• 32:43
  over, they go to another program, they start all the way
• 32:45
  over. And So what happens is our men
• 32:48
  become institutionalized, right. And they're not able to
• 32:51
  experience these things and everything is kind of taken care
• 32:54
  of for them. And you know, they find
• 32:56
  themselves in high containment treatment over and over again.
• 32:59
  And so luckily here, I mean, we do have, you know, the landing
• 33:03
  program where there's a high level of supervision that's
• 33:05
  provided. And if there's ever any
• 33:07
  setbacks, whether an individual's in the lodge
• 33:09
  program, in the solutions program, in our sober, living
• 33:12
  and outpatient program, we can bring them in, support them, get
• 33:16
  our hands around them, work with their family, work with the
• 33:20
  family therapist, work with our team, identify an appropriate
• 33:24
  solution to support them moving forward.
• 33:27
  Imply higher levels of accountability and
• 33:29
  responsibility. Add different psychiatric
• 33:32
  pieces, add different therapeutic pieces, add
• 33:35
  different case management aspects, coaching, companioning,
• 33:39
  all sorts of different things that we can support them with
• 33:42
  for the interim and keep them necessary most of the time,
• 33:46
  right on track where they were. It's not always required.
• 33:50
  At a certain point, if there's a relapse, if there's remorse to
• 33:54
  have an individual start all the way back over, it might be more
• 33:58
  beneficial to support them with where they're at, giving
• 34:01
  additional aspects and support, right?
• 34:03
  So we have a lot of flexibility when it comes to that.
• 34:07
  You know, here at Jaywalker, like if you guys were to come or
• 34:09
  you could look at our buildings online, all those buildings are
• 34:12
  no more than 100 yards apart. We have 5 different buildings
• 34:16
  that span across an entire year's continuum.
• 34:18
  We have about 40 men that are typically engaged in services
• 34:22
  throughout that entire year. Again, there's about 400 that
• 34:25
  live in the Roaring Fork Valley. So what we have is this recovery
• 34:29
  ecosystem that takes place on Main Street.
• 34:32
  And it's all around you. Like it takes me an hour to go
• 34:35
  get a gallon of milk at the grocery store because I'm going
• 34:38
  to run into a jaywalker. I'm going to have a conversation
• 34:40
  with them. I'm going to check in, see how
• 34:42
  things are going. My wife's going to call and say,
• 34:44
  hey, you said you were going to the store for a gallon of milk.
• 34:46
  And I said, yeah, I am. But I ran into Jji, ran into
• 34:49
  Josh. And that's just how it goes.
• 34:52
  And we want that for our man. We want them to, we want them to
• 34:56
  be exposed to the success. You know, one of the really cool
• 35:00
  things that we do, like we've talked about what it looks like
• 35:02
  for the clients. We've know what it looks like
• 35:05
  for the families, but what does it look for, like for the
• 35:07
  alumni. So everything that we do for the
• 35:10
  the the clients, we do for the alumni.
• 35:12
  So on Wednesday night our chef cooks a big dinner and 100 guys
• 35:15
  come in for a meeting and and it's a bustling place and guys
• 35:19
  have 10 years of recovery and they have two months of recovery
• 35:22
  and they have all these things. But if you're a brand new guy,
• 35:25
  come in from new waters to Jaywalker in the first week,
• 35:29
  you're going to the alumni meeting and you're meeting guys
• 35:31
  that have had success in recovery, guys that are from
• 35:34
  Chicago, where you're from, have a family that's, you know, a
• 35:39
  doctor and lawyer mom. And and the relativity is
• 35:41
  astounding, right? And, you know, we do alumni
• 35:45
  expeditions, We do, you know, monthly activities for the guys.
• 35:50
  There's always something that Dylan, our alumni coordinator,
• 35:54
  is doing for the guys here. It's really something special to
• 35:57
  be part of. That's great, man.
• 36:00
  That's that's amazing. And I'm I'm assuming I know it
• 36:04
  sounds like you have a lot of guys that come out and they kind
• 36:06
  of you know they get engaged and they create a community around
• 36:10
  them and they just it sounds like they just kind of stay in
• 36:12
  the local community. What about those clients that
• 36:15
  are that are coming in and and engaging but then at some point
• 36:18
  maybe kind of leaving the area and going back to wherever home
• 36:20
  may be for them. Yeah, we we have a you know
• 36:24
  about an equal percentage of that.
• 36:26
  I would say about half of the guys that come here are
• 36:31
  recommended to come here to cut with the expectation from that
• 36:35
  referring from their family to be a part of this thing in the
• 36:38
  greater hole here in Carbondale, you know come out plant roots
• 36:42
  and and stay for a while, stay in this sticky zip code.
• 36:46
  About 50% of the guys that come out, they are coming out for a
• 36:49
  90 day experience doing our primary program, doing the lodge
• 36:53
  after stabilization and we're creating a specific treatment
• 36:58
  plan that supports them with the reintegration into their local
• 37:01
  community. And there's a lot of different
• 37:04
  parts that may be involved in that just depending on what
• 37:07
  their clinical progress is. They know that they always have
• 37:10
  a home back here with us should they ever need to return.
• 37:14
  We encourage them to participate in a lot of the alumni
• 37:16
  activities, come on some of the expeditions with us, engage in
• 37:21
  zoom session meetings that are held for the alumni.
• 37:25
  But our position, certainly my position is, is supporting the
• 37:28
  individual, the reference and family in identifying
• 37:32
  appropriate resources a lot in the same way that Ryan's doing
• 37:35
  for you guys, right? Like how can we put together an
• 37:39
  appropriate plan of action for for Josh that needs to go back
• 37:43
  to Des Moines, IA. The the things that he's done
• 37:45
  here and the recovery experience that he has been provided will
• 37:51
  translate into something that he can implement in his life on a
• 37:55
  daily basis in Des Moines. You know, is there a case
• 37:58
  management component? Is there, you know, a private
• 38:01
  practice therapy? Is there psychiatry, is there an
• 38:04
  IOP? You know where we at in
• 38:07
  supporting him with this transitional plan.
• 38:10
  So there's typically a lot of work that goes into that to
• 38:13
  ensure that we're setting our our men up to find success in
• 38:17
  their local, local communities. That's great.
• 38:21
  And that can be a heavy lift. I mean we, we know that Ryan
• 38:23
  knows that very well, right. But it's, it's, it's important
• 38:27
  though, right? I mean that's The thing is I
• 38:28
  think, you know, primary treatment is important.
• 38:31
  You know, and I think if in the cases where people have an
• 38:34
  opportunity to engage in a treatment such as jaywalker, I
• 38:38
  think can be much more conducive, right.
• 38:40
  I mean just again, as we talked about being able to teach them,
• 38:42
  you know, how to live a little bit.
• 38:45
  But yeah, I mean, regardless of whether they're staying or
• 38:47
  whether they're going back, I think you know the continuation.
• 38:51
  Of, you know, engaging in relationships and and you know,
• 38:55
  staying connected to clinical care and things like that are
• 38:57
  just so crucially important. Absolutely.
• 39:00
  Yeah, I think we talk a lot of times.
• 39:02
  You know, I've worked at other treatment programs throughout my
• 39:04
  career and certainly worked at a couple longer term treatment
• 39:08
  programs over the last three years.
• 39:11
  And I think we're always kind of looking at a year of recovery is
• 39:13
  kind of like the golden standard.
• 39:14
  And I know that you guys are probably entering people, you
• 39:17
  know, you know in in bad condition and you know, in the
• 39:20
  hopes that we can create a plan that will support this young
• 39:24
  man, this young woman, whatever it may be in getting a year of
• 39:27
  recovery. Like what are the things that we
• 39:29
  can, what are the pieces that we can add that will equate to that
• 39:34
  you know and we we know that once a person can get a year of
• 39:37
  recovery, that's a year of abstinence at the very least,
• 39:40
  right. They have had experiences if
• 39:43
  they're you know in a 12 step community, they've done some
• 39:46
  step work. They've engaged in a recovery
• 39:49
  community, they've done some service.
• 39:50
  They know what recovery looks like over a year.
• 39:53
  They've they have experienced joy in certain ways.
• 39:55
  Again, you know, they have worked on their personal
• 39:58
  relationships. They probably have a new group
• 40:00
  of friends. And so with those components, at
• 40:02
  the very least there's a much higher success rate in in
• 40:07
  getting a person into longer term recovery.
• 40:11
  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Let's see here.
• 40:16
  So I think we're coming kind of close to our our end of our time
• 40:20
  KC, I really appreciate you taking some time to to hang out
• 40:24
  with us and and chat today and I really, really enjoyed getting
• 40:27
  to to learn more about jaywalker and about yourself.
• 40:30
  I'd love to. I mean, just kind of selfishly,
• 40:32
  I'd love to come out and see that place sometime, you know?
• 40:35
  Would love to do that. You know, I'll just give Graham
• 40:37
  a call and let him know, you know, we're ready to host you
• 40:39
  guys and you know, we'll get your ski passes ready and and
• 40:43
  put you together for the jaywalker experience.
• 40:45
  You know, because we don't have much more time until these guys
• 40:48
  are going to be on the mountain 2-3 times a week.
• 40:51
  That's true with each other. You know, the fall season, while
• 40:54
  it's my favorite, is in short order, our temperatures are
• 40:59
  declining on a daily basis. So I'll be looking forward to
• 41:02
  some of that season. And I know a lot of our guys
• 41:05
  will be showing up with snowboards and skis and these
• 41:08
  types of things over the next month.
• 41:10
  So you can count on that. I'll make the call for you.
• 41:13
  That's awesome. I'll make Funeral arrangements
• 41:15
  for me as well, because I'm not. I only go down a mountain one
• 41:19
  way and it's on my back. I found it so.
• 41:21
  But thank you. That's funny.
• 41:24
  So Casey, I always like to, I know I've kind of inserted one
• 41:26
  of these questions already, but I always like to kind of wrap
• 41:29
  these things up with, you know, you being someone in personal
• 41:31
  recovery and obviously having a lot of experience with the field
• 41:34
  and helping guide individuals in their own process.
• 41:37
  What would be like a take away or something for, you know,
• 41:40
  let's say if there was a family member or even a potential, you
• 41:43
  know, a person that's kind of struggling with their own
• 41:45
  disease right now that's watching or listening to this
• 41:48
  episode, What would be like a nugget that you would want them
• 41:50
  to take away from this? Yeah, just not to put you on the
• 41:54
  spot or anything. Yeah, I think.
• 41:56
  Just knowing that there's help, right?
• 41:57
  I mean, you know, certainly we work at two of the finer
• 42:00
  organizations in the nation, very different types of
• 42:04
  treatment programs. There's, you know, a wide
• 42:08
  variety of services that are available.
• 42:10
  You know I. I'm a big component of, you
• 42:13
  know, identifying a professional that can walk you through this
• 42:17
  treatment process, right and identify the best options that
• 42:21
  support you and your family's needs.
• 42:23
  Invest. Ensure that you know you're
• 42:25
  doing your diligence and identifying what one of those
• 42:28
  professionals offers you know what their level of expertise
• 42:32
  is, how they can help you through that.
• 42:34
  Because. You know, one thing that you
• 42:37
  know I know is that, you know, our families are experts at
• 42:40
  parenting their child because that's what their experience is,
• 42:44
  right? But they're not necessarily
• 42:46
  experts at parenting an addicted child or a child with heavy
• 42:51
  mental health disorders or these kind of things.
• 42:54
  And there's not necessarily a book that's going to be out
• 42:57
  there that's going to be riveting, that's going to turn
• 42:59
  you into an addiction professional.
• 43:02
  You know, I always equate this experience of.
• 43:05
  You know, I'm an addiction professional and my wife is in
• 43:07
  finance. You know, we had a big pipe bust
• 43:10
  in our house the other day. I didn't run home, put on my
• 43:13
  gloves, grab wrenches and start fixing that thing.
• 43:16
  You know, I caught up, called a professional to help me get that
• 43:18
  done. You know and you know, and if
• 43:22
  and if we have a son or a daughter who needs some support,
• 43:25
  you know, let's get a professional involved that can.
• 43:28
  Start paving the way. We need an engineer.
• 43:30
  We need an architect of the family that can walk us through
• 43:33
  exactly what we can expect, how we can participate in, what's
• 43:36
  going to provide the best opportunity for us to find
• 43:38
  success now. So that's kind of my my nugget.
• 43:42
  I love it. You are not alone, right?
• 43:44
  It's so basic. And we just think we have to
• 43:47
  keep doing this stuff. We have to do it alone.
• 43:49
  We have to keep it secret within these four walls.
• 43:51
  And and I love that you guys seem to be making this general
• 43:54
  movement and just just having people reach out.
• 43:56
  That's beautiful. Yeah, we love it.
• 44:00
  And thank you for having me today.
• 44:01
  This has been awesome. Likewise.
• 44:03
  Yeah. Thank you so much, Casey.
• 44:04
  We really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure chatting
• 44:06
  with you to get to know you a little bit better.
• 44:08
  And I guess until next time, right?
• 44:11
  Signing off. Thanks guys.
• 44:13
  Thank you.