Latest / Follow the Leighder / Power Dynamics in Conservative Christian Marriages | Chelsea Kim Long
Transcript
- Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me from California, welcome to the studio, Chelsea Kim Long. Chelsea Kim Long: Hey Leigh, thanks so much for having me. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely, folks. This is a really exciting guest today. Chelsea Kem Long is a writer, lay theologian, and meditation ex teacher exploring Christianity through the lens of women's embodied experiences and contemplative spirituality. Her work invites readers to imagine re reimagine Christianity beyond patriarchy and towards a more expansive and inclusive expression of faith. She lives in San Diego with her husband and three kids, where she co-co-leads an intentional neighborhood faith community grounded in belonging and justice. And folks, I'm really excited about this. And we're gonna get to this in this in this episode in conversation. but she's got a book. Debut book: Faithfully Dissident Daughters Reclaiming Christian Womanhood Beyond Patriarchy. And my goodness, I'm so excited. It's one of the Inglewood Review of Books, most anticipated Christian books for fall 2026. I am excited to dive into that before we do. Talk to us about your journey. I know w were raised evangelical and now you're on the deconstruction, reconstruction side of things. Please invite us in. What was that like? Chelsea Kim Long: Yeah, thank you. So yeah, a lot of this story I tell in my book, but briefly I was raised, I was born in the Midwest and raised in a Christian family. So kind of just born into evangelicalism, grew up going to a megachurch Christian school. I was homeschooled through elementary school, which I loved. I have a really close knit family. and then I went to Christian high school. And so just kind of was like really deep in this culture. And it was basically like my whole life, most of the people that I knew, I went away to college and went to a public university, but kind of recreated that little bubble for myself there. I became involved with the campus ministry there. that was like a conservative Christian group and, you know, found a lot of belonging and friends and fun through that group. And then after college, I had no idea what I was gonna do with my life because I really didn't have like career aspirations for myself. I I think growing up in the culture that I was raised, it's it's not like for me, I talk a lot about like fundamentalism and how it's a spectrum. There's like people who are really, really extreme. And then there are people who seem very normal, but kind of underneath some of that is some of that fundamentalism, that rigidity of belief. in the, you know, culture that I grew up in, there was this ideal kind of role for a woman to play and for a man to play. And it wasn't consistently reinforced. So it's not like I was in one of those communities where like women just stayed home and whatever. But still I kind of sensed and knew that the ideal, you know, life path for a Christian woman is to be a wife and a mother. And so I just felt like that was what I wanted for my life. And so even though I went to college, it was more like, well, that's just what you do. You go to college. Hopefully you meet your husband at some point. You get married and then you live happily ever after, you know? And so after college, I went on a missions trip because I didn't know what else I was gonna do. I hadn't met my husband in college. And I did this year-long mission trip, and actually that that's how I met my husband. So when we got home, we dated for a year, got married, and at that point I moved out to the West Coast from the Midwest. And yeah, kind of started that happily ever after. But a couple of years into marriage, we got pregnant with our first baby. You know, again, everything was kind of going according to plan. And I even went to grad school out in California because again, I knew I didn't want to have a baby right away, but I didn't know what else to do. So I actually Started getting or I got a master's in education thinking that I would teach English as a second language because that was something we had done overseas and I really enjoyed. but pretty much as soon as I got pregnant, I was like, okay, great, like this is what I'm gonna do. And then I had basically like a record scratch moment when my first baby was born, where his birth just did not go according to plan. And I it was a very traumatic birth. that ended in an emergency C section. And it kind of felt like my life was divided in before and after from that moment forward. because it just started to crack this veneer of kind of perfect motherhood, perfect womanhood. And I experienced in that moment like the sense of failure. You know, if God had designed me to be a wife and a mother, then how did I already fail? Like at the first task, which in my head was like having this magical natural birth and just everything, my body just like being one with my body and all that. And that just is not the way it went down. And so yeah, that's kind of what started me on this deconstru deconstruction path was like, wait a minute, it doesn't make sense. If God created me for this role of motherhood, then why is why am I struggling so hard with it? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I mean, that is so beautiful. And I really appreciate the way you lovingly talk about like pre-deconstruction. Like you're talking about how positive it was for you. Because it is. It is a whole world. It is the community, the ritual, the schools, like I mean, I'm even thinking about like the baseball team and how there's probably a cross on the posters. Like, you know, just like the whole And why would you qu you don't it's the default too, also. And like if you do question it, that's anybody who's questioning it also, and and I'm just saying this too, like in a just having been in Montana for a minute, like I don't know. If you question it, then do you also have to dress like you're questioning it and completely change your whole identity and then like register your political party and it's like this whole thing of like, well if I and and so What was that like to to look at certain things and be like, ha, what stays, what goes? Was there a shift? Did we do the whole dyeing our hair and and and getting nose piercings? I mean, and we and great. Like I s I'm just saying, like it's just funny to watch people and it's not funny to watch. That's I that's I don't want to say it's funny to watch people deconstruct. Whoa. Yeah, right. Chelsea Kim Long: Totally. Actually that's it's no, but you can see that identity shift happening. it's actually funny that you say that. 'cause this is not this is not in the book, but it is a part of the story. Like my senior year of high school, I actually dated a guy who did not go to our high school. I had met him through like a friend of mine from youth group was in a band, like an emo band. It was very, very cool at the time, you know. I was in high school in like the early two thousands. And so it was like a very scandalous that I would like date someone who didn't go to our high school. And he was like this emo kid with like the hair and the he wore like girl jeans. That was cool at the time. and I did kind of change my aesthetic also. So I did go through that, but it was and I did wrestle like my senior year of high school with that sense of like, wait, do I really fit in here? But It was more superficial and it didn't kind of dig down into like the theology and the worldview and all of that. Like all of that came much later, which you know, but it's interesting looking back. I can kind of trace, I call it the breadcrumbs, right? Like trace the breadcrumbs that like lead me to where I am now. Because I think when when you're someone like me who has gone through such a radical internal identity shift. I it's sometimes like hard to integrate who I was with who I am. And so those little breadcrumbs help me to trace back like, here's the places where I always knew something was off, or I always knew I was kind of molding myself to belong. but it was worth it enough to not question it at that time. You know, so it really wasn't until I had a baby. And a big part of it was, wait a minute, I have a baby, like I'm a responsible for this human child person. And it it kind of felt like the, you know, I don't know what metaphor to use, but like I at some point to this child would be would be held accountable for my beliefs. And I remember my first son is a boy, or yeah, my first child is a boy. And I remember looking at him and thinking like, I don't think it's a sin to be gay. And so I have this little baby boy. And what if one day he grows up to be gay? I want to be able to support him. And I also want to be able to believe that God loves him, you know, and that he can find happiness in his life and pursue a romantic partnership. And so I had a lot of those thoughts. And that's ultimately why I wrote this book that's kind of this conversation between motherhood and broader than motherhood, but like womanhood. And also then deconstruction and reconstruction because for me, those two things really went hand in hand. It felt like I always told myself that I could handle the questions internally and that like conflict internally until I started having kids. And then it just felt like it was externalized in this whole new way where all of the things that I didn't like or I didn't believe or I didn't appreciate the ways that I had been treated as a woman in the culture. I could, it's like weird in the way in which I couldn't find it in myself to advocate for myself. But when I had kids, I did find it. And so that happened when I had my first, and then several years later, I had boy-girl twins. And that was another big shift because all of a sudden I was going to have a daughter. So all of the things that had impacted me, like around purity culture and body shame and all of those things. And women not being able to really hold power in church spaces and all of those things. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Chelsea Kim Long: I was like, Okay, I have to reckon with these things in my own life and for the sake of my children. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Thank you. I you know, you you bring up motherhood. I watched a friend in middle school who was queer and came out to his Catholic mother and I remember her like one of the things she she like w in her way was was like, Okay, well she was very devastated, like it was a whole whole thing. but she was like, Okay, well, you know. Obviously I love you and when you bring him home, I'll make him dinner, but I'm not going to these pride rallies. And she just kept that like she just kept she's like, I'm not going. I mean and in her head, she was like, Okay, I'll make space for where it is, where I can for the relationship and what it is, but I'm not gonna join the queer mob. I can't as a Catholic. And I was like, okay, okay, whoa. And and it's just again when it's something you're so unfamiliar with and you've only seen negative just you know, anything else about it, why why would you? And and it sounds like for for you, like you said, these breadcrumbs. Why how talk about your marriage a little bit because you're going through all of this with someone else. You're not just kind of out in the woods journaling about this and isolation. Like you've got a world you're showing up for for kids. You're showing up for another person. What was that how did it impact the marriage? Chelsea Kim Long: Yeah, I mean, it actually it's funny, the day we're recording, it's our fifteenth wedding anniversary. so we have made it through so far. And I mean, it's a lot of work. It's funny that you're asking me this today, just because I've been reflecting a little bit on our marriage anyway. you know, it's interesting because we both started deconstructing in parallel with each other, like we were reading the same books and having these conversations. I think I have always I always joke if I had been raised in a religious structure denomination where women could become pastors or priests, I probably would have been. I just love and I am now in my own way a a neighborhood pastor here. But you know, like if I was in the Episcopal Church, for example, I probably would have pursued becoming a priest from a younger age. But so all that to say, like I this runs very, very deep for me. And I appreciate the way that you said. I talk about my upbringing like in an honoring way and in a positive way because it really did connect me, I believe, with something real and true. And so people will ask me, like, why do you hang on? Like, why are you even trying to redefine Christianity? Why don't you just let it go? And it's like, I understand for so many people, they don't they want to let it go. That feels good for them, but that was just never my path. And so with my husband, You know, we were always kind of wrestling through things, but I feel like it always hit me a little harder than him. I'm not sure if that's just personality or, you know, whatever it is, our our kind of sense of spirituality. But I was the one who was like, I don't want to keep going to evangelical church. And he was like, okay, you know what I mean? So there's there's these different decisions that kind of drove it. We moved to San Diego. We used to live in Orange County, California, a couple hours north, but we moved here to San Diego. To join this intentional faith community you mentioned in my bio. It's kind of like a house church, a very non-traditional form of Christian church. And so my husband and I, like that wasn't an issue for us. Like we kind of walked that together, which I don't take for granted because I know in a lot of marriages, like people are not on the same page. So I'm glad we were. The thing that was harder for us is I and I did not have the language for this until way more recently, but was like the negotiation of power in our relationship, because that is such a dynamic in these kind of conservative marriages where the man retains power, retains decision making. It's really interesting because my husband was never like a tyrannical man. It was honestly a lot of like me putting that on him. You know, earlier I was talking about these roles that men play and women play. And so it's like I was wanting, I thought, to play this very traditional role in the family. And then I wanted my husband to play his traditional role. And so over the years, we have had to have a lot of redefining conversations about our roles in the family. And some of that is like very nitty-gritty too, in terms of like domestic labor, childcare like labor. We've had a ton of kind of conversations and reorienting around all of the like domestic equity conversation. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Chelsea Kim Long: Which was so wonderful, but also felt very isolating because I did not hear a conversation happening in Christian circles about domestic labor and equity. That was all in like my my feminist circles, right? And so trying to reconcile like this again idealized version of womanhood with just the practicalities of my life is very unsustainable because over the years I started working. I found a career that I loved. You know, I found more passions and things that I wanted to offer. And so it became this tension of like, I can actually carry all of this domestic labor and prioritize all the other things that I want to do with my life. But that took a lot of time to kind of wrestle our way through to the other side. So so that was a big thing in our marriage that I am super grateful we were able to work through and now feel like we have such an like kind of mutual, mutually supportive relationship where we're with each other, where we're sharing those tasks, supporting each other in our work and in our dreams and all of that stuff. But I mean, man, there were some really, really rough years. The pandemic, you know, like for so many of us, was just like such a breaking point. you know, there's a lot more to the story. I do talk a little bit more about it in the book. I it's not primarily a book about marriage. But of course, all of this impacted my husband as well. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, and and that that was that would be hard and yeah, it would be hard to to do that otherwise. have one deconstruct and the other. I mean that's how divorces happen all the time. I mean, it's it's unfortunate. but it is, it it takes so much talking about everything. Like, which is a very It's it's just a whole other recover and and that's part of the reconstruction is like, okay, well then what do we do? Do you I know that you said that finding domestic equity, that is a beautifully worded way to to say that. And have you consider I know that you're not really talking about your marriage here, but I'm curious if that is something that you have explored and be willing to share more on, like just in general in your next book or your blog, but it's just like A heck of a statement, Chelsea. Chelsea Kim Long: Yeah. I mean, I we'll see. I think I really don't know what's next in terms of a next book. I have lots of ideas. I think the hope is to kind of hear what resonates with readers and then kind of move in various directions based on that. I think it's really tricky. We do need more people writing about marriage and deconstruction. and I understand why people don't, because you know, I mean, my book is extremely vulnerable, but then to think about like, And and all the stories that I tell, my husband is, you know, a character in the book. So all the stories that I tell we've been through and you know, we've talked through, and he's extremely like, share whatever you want, say whatever you want, but it does feel like it opens you up to this new level of criticism, this new level of being misunderstood. So you know, and I don't I I mean, I think when you're writing, you have to kind of let go of the perceptions of other people and just like try to stay true to your own experience and then really let it go. But then it feels like when I'm involving another person into that as well. I'm I'm just not sure. So we'll see. But I do think there needs to be, you know, more particularly, you know, I'm kind of in this weird little lane where I'm like, well, I am a Christian and I am a feminist and I am progressive. And so I think there's more opportunity for me to talk about things like domestic equity directly and how it relates to Christian marriages because there's so much content out there on like the trad wife thing, right? And so we do need women speaking t Christian women speaking to like, hey, Christian women are like allowed to, you know, have equal partners in their home and Christian women also like have careers that we love and also that doesn't mean we don't love our children. Like all of these messages that we need to kind of counteract a lot of these like Christian nationalist messages that tell women and men that they have to stick to these very gendered roles. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely and it's I mean and and I've seen this and explored on so many different ways because one of the tough things that I hear from folks deconstructing is because of the beautiful connection and the role that the personal relationship with Jesus Christ plays on the conservative religious right, it's not that does not carry over. To the the left. And that's a hard and I've had this with other progressive ministers where I've said, you know what, we need to be talking either about Jesus or a personal relationship with the spirit in some capacity. Because I hear a lot more of like positing Jesus as like this social justice advocate, and that's fantastic. We should that, but also we need to remind ourselves of like, again Going back in the progressive, like whatever your word is, depending on your high or low Christology and but like have you found that too? Like have you found the personal relationship with the spirit to be tough and you're on this side of the aisle or have you found a different way that I've seen? Chelsea Kim Long: Yeah, that's such an interesting question. I mean, when I think about, you know, my kind of former conception of faith or my worldview, all the things, my view of the Bible, on and on, my practices. it was it was very limited. And now I and it was in it was intentionally limited. and we were intentionally taught like. Anything kind of outside of those bounds is evil, demonic, wrong, whatever word you want to use, there's a spectrum, right? out of bounds. And so I think in my kind of deconstruction and reconstructive reconstruction, I have found a more expansive sense of spirituality, sense of spiritual practice. but I still, you know. That's why I have my title, Faithfully Dissonant, because it is this posture of tension. Because in those conservative Christian communities, this idea of faithfulness is kind of weaponized to kind of keep people. You want to be faithful. You got to stay faithful. So don't question, like, don't do yoga, whatever it is. Like, that's not faithful. It's this like kind of ambiguous, but also very clear, like marking line of boundaries. And so I have that like. faithfulness, and then I have that dissidence of like, wait, wait, wait. I still believe everything that I used to believe. I have lots of different understandings about theology, but at the heart of it is my belief in God, my desire to know God, to follow God through the example of Jesus, which is like baseline what it means to be a Christian, you know? And so that is why I continue to identify as a Christian because of that relationship. and yes, with the Holy Spirit as well. You know, it's funny, like sometimes I mean, I had a period of time where I thought I might lose everything because I just didn't know like how far I could step out beyond beyond those boundaries and still retain that identity as a Christian. but but now kind of back on the other side of intentionally. Reclaiming, kind of searching through Christian history, a lot of this work that I do in my book is like, listen, Christianity became what it is today intentionally over time by people shaping the tradition. And so I would like to throw my hat in the ring for proposing some of my ideas on how we can continue to shape the direction of this religion in a way that I would argue is more faithful to kind of Jesus' original intention for his followers. and so I don't know if that directly answers your question, but you know, I think there's gonna be all kinds of people who accuse me of heresy. You're not a Christian. You never knew Jesus. But like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Chelsea Kim Long: that's okay. They can say that, they can think that. And actually I understand in the book, I talk about the fundamentalist in my head, the little voice that's gotten so much quieter. But that little voice that's like, that's wrong. that's, you know, and I can just now it comes less and less because I have built this theology and also community of other Christians Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Chelsea Kim Long: who are like, you're not crazy. We're with you, you know? And so I think the thing about deconstruction that's hard is you're constantly looking back at what you don't want to be anymore. And so my book is kind of my vision for like. Let's look forward. Like let's, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Chelsea Kim Long: you know, I think like we said, there's place for everybody kind of in this fight against Christian nationalism or however you want to name that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It is. Chelsea Kim Long: For me, I don't love to spend a lot of energy arguing with people that disagree with me. I would rather spend my energy like promoting the vision and then living it too, you know? And so that's that's like my basic goal with the book and my content is like for people who are like, I cannot be a Christian like that. But I don't want to not be a Christian. My book is, and it's, you know, directly geared toward women, but it's for anybody, not just women. on like, okay, well, here's my vision of like what it could look like that's still deeply rooted in the tradition, deeply rooted in scripture, but it's just a different way. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So that is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Chelsea Kim Long: Thank you. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Have you talk about community being so important. You talk about being a lay theologian, a sort of lay pastor in your local community. Talk about what gathering rituals and and what that what that looks like in the practices you all have 'cause I know it looks different for all sorts of folks across country. Chelsea Kim Long: I love this question because it's so important. I think fundamentally, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Chelsea Kim Long: whether or not a person is involved in a religious community, we all, I believe we all have this inherent sense of spirituality. And I see it as like our connection with God, higher power, you know, the universe, however people want to name it, something that's bigger than humanity. And then it's our connection with other humans, right? On this deep, Kind of soul level. And then it's our connection with ourself. And so when I use that framework, it really expands kind of the menu of spiritual practice. And so in my own life, I have many, many spiritual practices and rhythms, some of which are religious, right? Some of which are Christian and some of which are not, right? Some of which belong to other traditions. I mentioned yoga, right? and then some of them are like. Even just having a deep conversation with a friend, I see that as a spiritual practice. And so within our faith community specifically, we have a lot of fun. I think because we're so small and nimble, we don't have a building, we don't have overhead. We're literally just like a ragtag group of, you know, friends, neighbors, families who gather. So we have a Sunday gathering, which is our form of church. You know, we may like recite prayers together, we may read scriptures and study together. we may do various prayer practices, spiritual practices from other traditions. And all of our gatherings also include a meal, which we feel like is as central to our spiritual Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Chelsea Kim Long: practice as any other part. And for me, that is really an intentional reclaiming of like an ancient Christian practice. You know, like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes, it is. Chelsea Kim Long: in modern Christianity, there's this practice of taking communion, right? Which depending on your church can look really different. When I grew up, it was like These tiny little cups of juice and this tiny little styrofoam kind of wafer. And you sit in the pew and you eat it, you know. but in like the original vision of Christianity, communion was literally just like in someone's home sharing meals together. And so that is a really primary practice for our faith community, is just like sharing meals around the table and having conversations and deeply knowing one another and kind of healing together. And so yeah, I actually this fall, like to support the book, I'm planning this very limited little book tour where I'm going in four different cities and offering these dinners that I call crowded table. And I first made them here in my neighborhood and we loved them. Like they're just like literally I would have them here in my house. everyone would bring a dish to share. I wrote kind of like a program liturgy for us to read through together and pray together and yeah, just like prompts for discussion. And so I thought with the book, it's like I don't really want to, you know, I could like and I like I like going seeing other authors at bookstores and stuff. But when I thought about what inspires me, I'm like, I actually want to take this practice on the road. So I'm really excited for that to kind of offer this ritual. That is like both ancient but also modern because I think part of the reimagination, the reconstruction is like for so many people, when we say church, they're just like, Nope, I'm done. And I completely get it. That's why I haven't pursued like joining another church in the way that you might think. because I'm like, no, I don't want that either. So I understand why people are like done with church as institution or church as like a building or a place you go. So it's kind of this modeling of like, we can, we can we can make it up. We can also like dig back through church history and rediscover ways of being and gathering. And Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Chelsea Kim Long: it's so fun. Like it's so I'm so I don't know. I love it. Like I just know that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing because I could do it all day. Like I could talk about it all day. And then just bringing it to people feels really exciting too. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, absolutely. And that's exactly what it is about. I mean, that is the heart of ancient Christianity was meals, gatherings, being in the home. And it was, it was a lot of also small groups, you know, these ideas of megachurches, like, yeah, like in the bigger cities, they probably but like no, it was a lot of home. and it was sharing too, like you were talking about. It's not someone standing up at a pulpit. with a very daunting sanctuary that we might imagine, telling you how to behave. It was your neighbors. And I think that's really beautiful. Chelsea Kim Long: Yeah. Well, I it was funny. I saw on Threads recently this guy, I think his name is Brandon Rhodes. He wrote on Threads, like he was something like, These days, my idea of an ideal church would be more like a mutual aid network and then a dinner party with a list of really random like guests at the table. And I was like, Yeah, that's kind of how our community functions. You know, we support each other in so many ways. And we we share the table and we're trying to invite neighbors in and you know, and it's not like to evangelize or proselytize. It's literally just like we love doing this, like we love gathering, we love having deep connection with each other, and wanting to share that with other people in our lives. So, you know, it it looks very much non traditional to what people expect. but it for us it's very much church and I think You know, I understand and I actually think I support people leaving toxic religious spaces. And I want us to have like imaginative alternatives for people who are like, wait a minute. I still want to connect with God. I still want to connect with others. I still want to know myself and grow as a human. And so where are we doing that? And I for me, I'm like, I don't have to leave Christianity behind to continue to do those things. It just takes a lot of redefining, which For me is really fun and life giving work that I love. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm I'm what's beautiful about it is that when you step into your more authentic space self, like it is like you said, like you could just do it all day. It resonates, it spreads like wildfire. People really like latch on to it because this country is just also it's so ritually starved and so community starved. And we turn to so many, and like you said, no few people Well, it's like almost like I don't want to say this too callously, but it's like getting remarried, trying to find a new denomination or a new church. Like it's like such a big thing. And you're like, Well, what can I do to can find that love within myself? Those rituals. Who are the who are my people? And you going out and and actively cultivating that is not only beautiful and testimony to your faith, but also, I mean, that is hard to do. Putting yourself out there and And and either I don't want to say getting it wrong necessarily, because when you're hard and intense there, but like, you know, the the sidesteps along the way. Can you talk about some of those growing pains that I know you've already shared about your marriage, but if comfortable was there things with your family or even with like your friends or work partners? Like what did that look like to negotiate you changing when other people weren't really open to that? Chelsea Kim Long: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's tricky, you know? And I think that is why I have a lot of compassion for people. You know, I have women who will message me and say, you know, I don't really agree with my church, but I don't want to leave because that's my support system. And I'm like, I understand. Like, I'm not asking anyone to like make a radical change that they're not ready to make. but I it definitely, you know. It so much of my journey was like very much internal work, which was hard. But it was also this journey of kind of coming into alignment with it's like for many, many years in my life, I was able to adhere to what I thought I was supposed to be, according to this vision of like idealized conservative Christian womanhood. And over time, it was like it was like less and less. I couldn't like shove it down anymore. So it was kind of like rising, rising, rising in me. But I was still able to like manage a lot externally so that I could continue to show up in the way that I thought people wanted me to. And then at some point, like I I became very burnt out. I became depressed. I mean, I was having put postpartum mental health struggles as well, which is all contributing. And it finally was just like the damn kind of broke. And it was messy, you know. I mean, throughout the years, like I've always kind of enjoyed writing, blogging, you know, I I had like a MySpace and a Tumblr and like every social media platform. I just have always loved it. And so there was a period of time where I was kind of writing about my deconstruction, what I was questioning. And I would have some people who kind of knew me from high school and college kind of push back and some people who push back very consistently and very, you know, strongly. And at some point I had to set some boundaries, you know, whether that's like blocking people or not letting people see my content or even directly like saying, hey, I love you. Like we're gonna be in each other's lives for various reasons. And I need you to, you know, like I guess a boundary is not me telling someone else what they can do, but basically saying like, You can continue to email me if it feels like what you need to do, but I will not continue to read or respond to them because, you know, we're just on different paths now and I understand where you're coming from. Like they were trying to lovingly reach out and kind of show me, like, you're you're in danger, you know, you're straying from the path. And I finally just had to say like, appreciate what you think you're doing according to what you believe. And also we're just going, you know. We're going different ways. So it was, I mean, it was hard because it did feel like loss. It it felt like loss of belonging in real time, loss of acceptance. but I am really, really grateful that I was able to do the majority of that while I was in this really supportive community. And we were exploring things together. And it was really the first time that I had been in a church where the goal wasn't to come into perfect alignment on what we believed. The goal was instead, like, hey, let's just talk about this topic. One time we had a whole like kind of month-long series on hell. And it's like, okay, let's talk about hell. What are what were you taught about hell? Like, here's various ways throughout Christian history that hell was talked about. and it wasn't like, and this is the one that we think now, or it wasn't even like, and we don't believe in hell. It was just like, what do you think? Like, what resonates? What feels freeing? What feels life-giving? And I know for so many people who identify as Christians, that's like, what? Isn't the goal of Christianity to like believe the right thing? But I think that is what was so revolutionary was like, no, the goal of Christianity is to become like the most authentic version of yourself, like the most whole version of yourself. And so, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Chelsea Kim Long: you know, even in that very supportive community, there were still like lots of pieces of my story. That took a long time for me to integrate and even share with these people that are really close to me in my life. So I do not make any illusions that it's easy to go through something like that to really try and redefine yourself and your beliefs. However, for me, it's extremely worth it. And for me, it got to this point where it was just unsustainable. Like I could no longer, you know, if we want to use a cheesy metaphor, it's like the butterfly inside of the chrysalis. It's like I'm busting out. And it's gonna be messy and it's gonna be ugly. And I was mean and raw and like a mess. And I kind of just tried to stay really true to what I needed, what I wanted, what was honest. And then I had to trust that anything I lost was worth it because I couldn't I couldn't go back anymore. So any relationship that I lost or community was not like like, well. I mean, not that it wasn't painful because it was, but it was also like, I cannot do this anymore. So just gonna let the chips fall where they may. It takes a lot of trust to kind of go through that and and and not really know where you're gonna land on the other side. You know, like I thought maybe I'm gonna lose my marriage. You know, like I don't know. but I feel extremely grateful that, you know. That we were able to like navigate through all of that. And then in my close relationships too, when I finally got to the point where I was like, hey, we kind of need to talk. Like I need to just tell you the ways in which I've been hiding and I want you to know me, like for real. I mean, every single time, even with people who I'm close with that we don't align on our beliefs, like I still was met with love. and again. I know that that's not the case for everybody. Like, I feel really grateful and lucky. Like I think of your friend Leigh/@followtheleighder: All right. Chelsea Kim Long: who came out in high school and his mom, like, she kind of was able to give him what she was able to. But I have friends who their parents cut them off. You know, like all of those. So Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, right, right. Chelsea Kim Long: again, kind of how I started the answer is like I understand and have compassion for people who choose not to walk through that fire because You you know your life better than anybody else and you know what you stand to lose. And sometimes it just doesn't feel worth it or it doesn't feel worth it right now. And that's okay. You know, I think there's Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Right. Chelsea Kim Long: a lot of people that want to kind of push you, like, be true to you and just who cares, like whatever. And I'm like, it's not that simple. Like sometimes you gotta think Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's fine. Chelsea Kim Long: about it, you gotta write about it in the woods by yourself, like you said. Like, if that's all you're doing right now, like that's good. And then you can trust the timing. you can trust that if you're at least being honest like internally or maybe with a therapist, I always recommend, like at some point you will know when's the next step towards like, I need to figure out, you know. but you know, I I I mean, people who read my book, they will see like I've been through some shit. And so to me it was worth it because I was like, I can't be in this much pain anymore. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. I this kinda know we're kind of getting close on time, but can you talk to me just a little bit about writing the book? Because writing a book like this can be very isolating. and I know we've talked a lot about your community, but how did you stay motivated when there were times where you were like, Ugh what is the point? Or you know, just what what did that look like to come back and and finish the book? Chelsea Kim Long: Well, you know, it's funny. I wrote the book over the course of like four years and then also over the course of six months because I when I first set out to write a book, I had written like a full-on memoir of kind of these intersecting journeys of motherhood and faith deconstruction. And then when it when I started to kind of look for a literary agent and a publisher and all that, kind of like the business side of things, most people were like, this is really important. that n there, you know, we haven't heard a story like this, but also can you write it in a different way? So it's not a memoir strictly. So that took time to figure out. And then once I figured that out, I actually pretty quickly was able to find an agent and then pretty quickly after that able to get a book deal, which was my goal. There's all kinds of paths to publication, but for what I want to do in the future, I really wanted to get traditionally published. And so and I'm getting published with a progressive Christian Publishing house and it feels like such a good fit for the book. but once I got my book deal, then I had then the clock starts ticking, you know, you're under contract to write the book. Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. Chelsea Kim Long: So I wrote that last summer, over the summer, pretty much, and it was great because I was able to take some of the pieces from this full manuscript of the memoir that I'd already written, and then weave in a lot of the theology and those kind of pieces. And to be very honest, it's funny because people always talk about like writing is so isolating, it's such a solitary thing. And it is, it's solitary when you're actually writing. But I I'm just a writer. Like I I never kind of dreamed like of being an author necessarily, but writing is just so natural to me. It's just something that I do. And so sure, it took discipline to like sit down, you know, I usually write early in the morning. So, you know, to wake up, get my coffee, sit down, try to knock out my word goal for the day. It's not that it wasn't effortful, but it also was so enjoyable. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Chelsea Kim Long: and so I feel like I'm excited to write my next one because that was one of my favorite pieces of it was writing the book itself. And then actually working with my editor was so fun too. Like just that back and forth and that collaboration of getting someone to kind of draw out what what are you actually trying to say? And You know, and now I'm I'm really close to like it being in other people's hands. And so to me, this feels like the hardest part actually is just kind of vulnerably offering it and kind of setting up my own systems of kind of care and support so that whatever the reaction is, I'm you know, grounded and ready and wanting to connect with readers and you know, trying, you know, having energetic boundaries around. criticism and you know, the hard parts. So I think it's it's such a mix. It's it's so surreal to be at this point. and I've also, you know, along the path of writing a book, you know, The Solitary, The Isolation, yes, and also have met so many other people kind of along the journey and who are supporting me and endorsing me. And it's super fun. I am really, really grateful for the writing community. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Well, Chelsea, can you tell folks how they can learn more about you, follow you, and otherwise just get to find your book and find more about you. Chelsea Kim Long: Absolutely. So I am on Instagram is kind of my primary place where I hang out. It's at Chelsea Kim Long, my full name. And then my book, I actually have a copy here if people are watching. It's Faithfully Dissident Daughters Reclaiming Christian Womanhood Beyond Patriarchy. It is out September eighth, twenty twenty six. And you can find that on my website. I made a really easy URL. It's just faithfullydissident.com. So you can find out more info about the book. You can order your copy. You can if you wanna l learn about my book tour, I have all the dates and tickets on there. So that is like the best place. You can find out pretty much anything you wanna know and more from faithfullydissident.com. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Chelsea, I am just so excited to have found you online, cross paths. I'm so excited for your book and all the success. I hope that many people find you and hey, just talking to you, I can feel the love of community and the hope that you're bringing. And I think that's what people need right now is people have gotten, myself included, really good at naming harms. we've gotten so good at it. We have gotten so good at naming arms. But what are we trying to build and How can we move forward? What does it look like? And I'm just excited for you. So please please come back in the future. would love to talk to you more. Chelsea Kim Long: Thanks so much, Leigh. This was really, really wonderful. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Well folks, let me know in the comments what you thought about this conversation. And if you have any questions or other topics that I can bring up with her in our future conversation, do let me know. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe, you know the drill. This has been another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya. No, it's not okay.