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JonBenet Dad Pushes For More DNA Testing in Daughter's Murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace John banat Ramsey, a case
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Speaker 1: that has stuck in the craw of the country since
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Speaker 1: she went missing and was found dead in the basement
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Speaker 1: of her own home. The fact that it was Christmas
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Speaker 1: Eve made the disaster even worse for so many. But
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Speaker 1: now another twist in the tale of the unsolved case
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Speaker 1: of John banat Ramsey. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
0:45
Speaker 1: and Sirius XM one eleven. First of all, take a
0:49
Speaker 1: listen to our cut one kidnap. Sorry you find me
1:01
Speaker 1: when you find that. Okay, the note left bought good?
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Speaker 1: And note who was reftom you do? I'm how old
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Speaker 1: is your gonna? She's good? She's old. I long to go.
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Speaker 1: I don't know what you feel. The doe and my god,
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Speaker 1: he's the same chicker, but it's the same chender. I
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Speaker 1: don't know random note here it's the ransom now because
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Speaker 1: if CCC Victory? Please okay, what's your name? Are you happy?
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Speaker 1: Land here in the river? Oh? My god? Please, I'm okay,
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Speaker 1: comey enough to tell him? Okay, do you know how
1:46
Speaker 1: I'm she's in God? I go? Please? Would you try
1:49
Speaker 1: out you on here. Oh my god, please, okay, everybody,
1:53
Speaker 1: I am honey, could take a deep friend. Sorry, hurry,
1:57
Speaker 1: you're hacking. Tatty, tatty. You just heard a nine one
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Speaker 1: one call that has been played over and over and
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Speaker 1: over and analyzed twice the times it's been played. You
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Speaker 1: are hearing the mother of John Bine Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey,
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Speaker 1: calling nine one one the night her daughter seemingly disappears,
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Speaker 1: and to hear her on nine one one, you would
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Speaker 1: have no idea that her daughter is actually dead in
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Speaker 1: a staged scene in the basement. Take a listen to more.
2:33
Speaker 1: This is Phil keating Kusa past Santa Claus in his
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Speaker 1: sleigh and a double row of candy canes. Deputy coroners
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Speaker 1: brought the body of six year old John Benet Ramsey
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Speaker 1: from her upscale home. Neighbors described the young girl as
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Speaker 1: beautiful and polite. In nineteen ninety five, she won the
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Speaker 1: Little Miss Colorado pageant. Boulder police won't comment on her
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Speaker 1: cause of death, only saying that she wasn't shot or stabbed.
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Speaker 1: They are investigating her death as a homicide. So far,
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Speaker 1: no arrests have been made. This case started as a kidnapping.
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Speaker 1: Police were called here to the scene at about six
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Speaker 1: am the morning after Christmas. Someone inside this house had
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Speaker 1: made a nine one one call saying that little John
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Speaker 1: Vanet had been kidnapped. Well, when police got here, they
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Speaker 1: went inside the house and a short time later they
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Speaker 1: found the little girl's body. The parents, John and Patsy Ramsey,
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Speaker 1: were home at the time, but detectives say the parents
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Speaker 1: are not suspects. The father is the president of Access Graphics,
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Speaker 1: located on Boulder's Pearl Street Mall. The couple does have
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Speaker 1: another child, a son, around ten years old. That son
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Speaker 1: now grown and having survived a battle of his own
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Speaker 1: Burke Ramsey accused by many in the press as killing
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Speaker 1: his sister. It never made sense to me if you
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Speaker 1: even look at statistics, that is highly, highly rare. Again,
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is cry Stories. Thanks for being
4:00
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and series M one
4:03
Speaker 1: eleven with me an all star panel to make sense
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Speaker 1: of what we know right now and yet another bizarre
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Speaker 1: twist in the case with me high profile lawyer joining
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Speaker 1: me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Daryl Cohen also with me,
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Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrist doctor Angela Arnold at Angela Arnold MD dot com.
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Speaker 1: Special Deputy Sheriff Johnson County Greg Smith joining us from
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Speaker 1: Kansas Forensic Pathologists, medical examiner, detective and author of Homicide
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Speaker 1: Investigation field Guide and also investigating child abuse field Guide,
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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree. But first to Carol McKinley joining us.
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Speaker 1: She's joining us with the Colorado Gazette and the Denver
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Speaker 1: Gazette dot com. Carol. In the last hours, a stunning
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Speaker 1: proposition has been made by John Bonnet's dad. Explain, well,
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Speaker 1: I think he went on Crime Come twenty twenty two
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Speaker 1: up in Las Vegas over the weekend and called for
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Speaker 1: the case to be taken out of the hands of
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Speaker 1: the Boulder police. Well, it's been twenty five years, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: I think what you really need to do is get
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Speaker 1: beyond the rhetoric from all sides. You've got John Ramsey
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Speaker 1: saying to take the case out of the Boulder Police's hands.
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Speaker 1: You've got the Boulder police saying, hey, we're doing fine.
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Speaker 1: In fact, we've just met with federal, state and local
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Speaker 1: experts to go over the DNA in March. And then
5:27
Speaker 1: you've got the governor saying, hey, you know we'd be
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Speaker 1: happy to see a petition. John Ramsey's got a petition
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Speaker 1: out now to the governor. How much does the petition mean?
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Speaker 1: I mean, really, the case is still in the hands
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Speaker 1: of the Boulder Police. It's not going to go out
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Speaker 1: of their hands despite the petition. I think the governor.
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Speaker 1: You have to understand, Governor pollis here. He doesn't shut
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Speaker 1: down anybody. That's his reputation. So what you need to do.
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Speaker 1: I don't really know if I agree that John Ramsey
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Speaker 1: should be quote shut down. I mean, uh no, I'm
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Speaker 1: sure she was murdered back in nineteen talking about Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the petition or Ramsey because the petition.
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Speaker 1: You know, let's talk about the position the petition. Take
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Speaker 1: a Listen to our cut eight. This is John Andy's father,
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Speaker 1: John Ramsey at Crime con Listen to our friends at Fox.
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Speaker 1: It's a petition to hopefully get the State of Colorado
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Speaker 1: to intervene and have the items from the crime scene
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Speaker 1: that should be tested for DNA that have a testing
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Speaker 1: and that's what we're hoping for. Am It's going to
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Speaker 1: take a lot of help to get that movie. But
6:42
Speaker 1: you know, a government's very reactive government, and we're talking
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Speaker 1: about politicians, and we want them to do the right thing.
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Speaker 1: And if they know there's enough people behind it asking
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Speaker 1: them to do the right thing, they'll do it. That's
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Speaker 1: what I'm hoping for. I don't know about you, Darryl Cohen,
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Speaker 1: but I don't like it when the state, the District
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Speaker 1: Attorney's office has to be petitioned to test crime scene
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Speaker 1: evidence for DNA. Why is John Ramsey having to go
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Speaker 1: through all this to get items tested, and not only that,
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Speaker 1: he's offered to pay for the testing himself. Nancy, something
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Speaker 1: is way wrong, Nancy, nothing makes sense. This should have
7:23
Speaker 1: happened twenty five years ago. DNA forensic everything should have
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Speaker 1: been done by the Boulder Police, but it obviously wasn't.
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Speaker 1: And we've been through this forever and John and Patsy Ramsey,
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Speaker 1: who's now disease, went through hell apparently because of their
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Speaker 1: daughter was murdered, and it wasn't The investigation was not
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Speaker 1: done properly, It wasn't done completely as it should have
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Speaker 1: been done well right at the bat. You never on
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Speaker 1: day one, an hour after you find the dead body
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Speaker 1: of a little girl in the home where the parents
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Speaker 1: and the little brother were the only ones there that
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Speaker 1: night you don't just jump up and say, oh, they're
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Speaker 1: not suspects. You do an investigation first, and then if
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Speaker 1: they're ruled out, fine, But the crime scene was not
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Speaker 1: cordoned off, witnesses were not separated. I mean, I don't
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Speaker 1: know how you can trust any DNA because the crime scene,
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Speaker 1: if this ever does go to trial, was highly contaminated.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to more This is Hey, USA. We
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Speaker 1: talked about what needs to be done, and we said, well,
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Speaker 1: there's some some big things that need to be done
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Speaker 1: and some not so big things. One of the manageable
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Speaker 1: tasks that ought to be done is the police. Somehow
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Speaker 1: we've got to force the police or taken away from
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Speaker 1: them the ability to go ahead and test some of
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Speaker 1: the crime scene evidence. It was never tested for DNA.
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Speaker 1: And why that's never been done and won't be done
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Speaker 1: by the police it baffles me. But so they said,
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Speaker 1: let's let's get people behind it. Will petition the governor
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Speaker 1: of Colorado to make this happen. Either take the case
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Speaker 1: away from the police, which I would love, it'll ever
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Speaker 1: be solved if it stays in the Boulder police hands,
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Speaker 1: or at least get the crime scene material tested for DNA. Samples.
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Speaker 1: The technology has advanced so far in the DNA world
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Speaker 1: from you know, twenty years ago, and to just not
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Speaker 1: do that is it baffles me. And you know, we're
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Speaker 1: not asking to be forgiven or apologize to just test
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Speaker 1: the DNA. Let's solve this crime and the police won't
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Speaker 1: do it, And so we're petitioning the governor and a
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Speaker 1: lot of people have gotten behind it to say this
9:55
Speaker 1: is crazy. Make it happen. Time stories with Nancy Greece.
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Speaker 1: The crime scene was not cordoned off, witnesses were not separated. Now,
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Speaker 1: I don't know that her body or items right around
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Speaker 1: her body were contaminated, but I do know the entrance
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Speaker 1: the area was contaminated. And I find it really odd.
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Speaker 1: What about it, Greg Smith, special Deputy sheriff joining us
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Speaker 1: out of Kansas, that John Ramsay is having to offer
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Speaker 1: to pay for the testing. Oh one more thing, Daryl Cohen,
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Speaker 1: I disagree with you in one sense. Yes, DNA tests
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Speaker 1: should have been done a long time ago on every
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Speaker 1: item in the home that was around the crime scene
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Speaker 1: or connected to the crime scene. But DNA testing has
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Speaker 1: vastly progressed since nineteen ninety six. So even if something
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Speaker 1: was or was not tested at the time, it should
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Speaker 1: be retested or tested for the first time with new technology. Greg,
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Speaker 1: have you ever seen a parent have to pay for
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Speaker 1: DNA testing? Me? Why am I paying taxes if I
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Speaker 1: got to pay for DNA testing? Yeah. I have seen
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Speaker 1: parents offer to pay for various things in various cases
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Speaker 1: when they feel that, you know, the investigation isn't progressing
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Speaker 1: fast enough, and certainly this investigation hasn't progressed. I do
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Speaker 1: agree with your statement. DNA testing has changed drastically since
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Speaker 1: the days of this case, and what was possible then
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Speaker 1: and what is possible now are light years apart. So
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Speaker 1: everything that they have, everything that was collected, should be
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Speaker 1: tested again. Take a listen to John Ramsey himself, and
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Speaker 1: as you know, John Ramsey was under suspicion and I
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Speaker 1: find it highly probative. I'm going to circle back to you,
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Speaker 1: doctor Angie that he is coming forward saying test these
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Speaker 1: items for DNA. This is hey, USA. I think the
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Speaker 1: Boulder police decided on day one that it was the
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Speaker 1: parents that did this horrible thing and have not been
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Speaker 1: confused by facts or evidence on that conclusion. And the
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Speaker 1: same people that concluded that on day one are still
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Speaker 1: there and either they don't want to be embarrassed if
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Speaker 1: the answer isn't what they decided twenty five years ago,
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Speaker 1: or they're just totally incompetent. I don't know, I really don't.
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Speaker 1: It's baffling to me that a police department would be
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Speaker 1: so ignorant of the facts and dismissive of the facts,
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Speaker 1: in fact misrepresent the facts publicly. It's crazy, hey, doctor
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Speaker 1: Michelle du Pray, As I recall John and a Ramsay
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Speaker 1: still had a heiman. Rheiman was intact. Now, there was
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Speaker 1: some evidence that she may have been molested, but her
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Speaker 1: hymen was intact, and I remember at the time saying,
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Speaker 1: in my mind, that may very well rule out John Ramsey,
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Speaker 1: because if a grown Mail had been molesting her, I
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Speaker 1: don't think her hymen would have still been intact. What
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Speaker 1: do you think about that, doctor Michelle Nancy, that's an
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Speaker 1: excellent point. The problem is is that we do think
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Speaker 1: that just because the hymen is intact, there was no molestation.
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Speaker 1: But that is not necessarily true. Even for a man,
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Speaker 1: the hymen is often very stretchable and it may not
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Speaker 1: it may not break on the first attempt, so that
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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily rule out John Ramsey, But I agree with you.
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Speaker 1: But John Benett was six years old. If John Ramsey
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Speaker 1: had been molesting her, I think you would have had
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Speaker 1: more than one opportunity to do that, right. So, I mean,
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Speaker 1: I know what you're saying. Technically, it's true that the
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Speaker 1: first time a child is pinna traded in that way
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Speaker 1: may not break the hymen. But over the course of
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Speaker 1: six years, I mean, can we just get realistic. I mean,
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Speaker 1: little green men may have come down from Mars and
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Speaker 1: done it, doctor Dupree, but I don't think that's what happened.
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Speaker 1: And what I'm saying is if a grown man had
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Speaker 1: been molesting a six year old child, a girl, you
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Speaker 1: would assume, most likely her hyman would no longer be intact.
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Speaker 1: Would you agree with that statement? I do agree with
14:27
Speaker 1: that settlement. Dear Lord in Heaven. Listen. I'm a JD,
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Speaker 1: not a DDS. I don't know how to pull a tooth,
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Speaker 1: So you got to go with it a little bit.
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Speaker 1: So you're saying that, typically speaking, her hymen would have
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Speaker 1: been intact. Yes, no, yes, probably, Yes, I'll go with probably.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to go with probably. So what I was
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Speaker 1: going to say earlier is that the fact that he
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Speaker 1: is coming forward and asking for DNA testing, And my
15:00
Speaker 1: mind is to his credit, because when you've got a purp,
15:04
Speaker 1: they don't usually go on national TV and demand more
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Speaker 1: investigation and more testing. They usually hide out and don't
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Speaker 1: say anything. Think about Scott Peterson, and I've said from
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Speaker 1: the get go that it's statistically virtually impossible that Burke Ramsey,
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Speaker 1: the brother of John and A, did this. I mean,
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Speaker 1: if you look at the two of them growing up,
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Speaker 1: Burke is about this big round, his little arms and legs.
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Speaker 1: At the time, she was killing like little sticks. He
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Speaker 1: was pale and frel She was a firecracker. She was
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Speaker 1: the one that was so robust and had all the energy. No,
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Speaker 1: I do never. I've never thought that Burke Ramsey killed
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Speaker 1: his sister. And because her hima was intact, it made
15:48
Speaker 1: me think that her father did not kill her. I
15:52
Speaker 1: don't know him and I don't know Burke, but I'm
15:55
Speaker 1: just looking at it analytically. So in my mind at
15:58
Speaker 1: the beginning, those two were somewhat cleared. It's not final,
16:06
Speaker 1: but that was my gut impression at the beginning. I
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Speaker 1: want you to hear more in our cut nine of
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Speaker 1: John Ramsey speaking where I just came from Crime con
16:17
Speaker 1: Listen our cut nine. It's a cold case, and they
16:21
Speaker 1: don't call it a cold case, but for all intensive
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Speaker 1: purposes a cold case. Why they won't test the DNA
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Speaker 1: sample of the samples that should be tested for DNA,
16:30
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's bastard. If you rob a bank,
16:35
Speaker 1: you'll have the whole federal bureaucracy of crime after you.
16:41
Speaker 1: If you murder a child in Mayberry, you remember the
16:44
Speaker 1: old Barney Fife Andy Griffith show. If you murder a
16:48
Speaker 1: child Mayberry, it's up to Barney, and if Barney doesn't
16:51
Speaker 1: ask for help, it cannot come in. We have eighteen
16:54
Speaker 1: thousand police jurisdictions in this country. Each one's a rural kingdom.
16:59
Speaker 1: They have four or the crimes are committed to in
17:01
Speaker 1: their territory other than bankruptcies and a few other things.
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Speaker 1: But why we don't make as a society to barder
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Speaker 1: of a child be a criminal offense at the highest
17:14
Speaker 1: level and bring all of our resources to bear on
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Speaker 1: That is beyond me. Hearing John Ramsey straight back out
17:21
Speaker 1: to Carol McKinley, a reporter with the Colorado Gazette and
17:25
Speaker 1: the Denver Gazette, dot com. Carol, what do you make
17:28
Speaker 1: of it? I mean, nobody's gonna like being compared to
17:30
Speaker 1: Barney five. Well, what I was going to say a
17:34
Speaker 1: little earlier is the police said in their press release,
17:36
Speaker 1: and I've talked to a couple of sources, that there's
17:39
Speaker 1: really no reason to take the case out of their
17:41
Speaker 1: hands because they're on top of the DNA situation. You know,
17:45
Speaker 1: they came out with a really rare press release. They
17:48
Speaker 1: don't normally respond to anything, including John Ramsey, but this
17:53
Speaker 1: time they decided to. They said the last time they
17:56
Speaker 1: met with federal, state, and local authorities in March twenty
17:59
Speaker 1: twenty two, a month ago, they met and went over
18:02
Speaker 1: this DNA. And what they say is that they had
18:05
Speaker 1: been looking at the latest technology, including genealogical DNA, to
18:11
Speaker 1: see if there might be a match. So what you
18:13
Speaker 1: do is you meet with all you said they had
18:16
Speaker 1: a meeting about it. Yes, they had a meeting. Have
18:20
Speaker 1: they tested the items have been tested? Well, there is
18:24
Speaker 1: no DNA. The DNA we're talking about, just to remind people,
18:28
Speaker 1: is there was DNA found in blood in her underwear
18:33
Speaker 1: that had several unknown profiles in it that was similar
18:38
Speaker 1: to DNA that was found on the waist band of
18:41
Speaker 1: the Old Weird Boys Long John. She was found in
18:45
Speaker 1: that were urine stain, so it's similar, but it's never
18:48
Speaker 1: matched anything in codis. So what John Ramsey, and what
18:52
Speaker 1: John Andrew rams you're asking is please check that DNA
18:56
Speaker 1: with the garat, with the paint brush, with they she
19:00
Speaker 1: was wearing, and see if if there's a match or
19:03
Speaker 1: is this just arrant DNA and if there is a
19:06
Speaker 1: similar if there isn't a similar profile anywhere, even if
19:11
Speaker 1: it's genealogical, let's look into it. Well, the police say
19:14
Speaker 1: they are, So why are you calling for this? They're saying,
19:18
Speaker 1: stop calling to take this case out of our hands.
19:21
Speaker 1: We've got this, That's what they're saying. Let me just
19:24
Speaker 1: ask this And this is a yes note. Okay, have
19:29
Speaker 1: police tested the items? Ramsey? About six years ago, the
19:38
Speaker 1: district attorney at the time, Stan Garnett, did send a
19:41
Speaker 1: bunch of items into the colorade of your investigation. He
19:44
Speaker 1: sent the garad in. So all the items that Ramsey's
19:48
Speaker 1: talking about have already been testing, some of them items
19:51
Speaker 1: some of them have but it's really uncle. So yeah,
19:57
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. It's unclear it's unclear you are
20:00
Speaker 1: right now which items have been tested, But I know
20:02
Speaker 1: the garat was sent in and that was important. I
20:05
Speaker 1: believe the flashlight might have been sent in. The cord
20:11
Speaker 1: that was around her neck and around her wrists were
20:14
Speaker 1: sent in, and I think if they if a match
20:16
Speaker 1: had been found, we would know about it by now.
20:19
Speaker 1: That was sixty years ago. But John Ramsay saying there
20:22
Speaker 1: are other items that they should test as well, and
20:25
Speaker 1: I don't know what they've tested since then. And I
20:29
Speaker 1: think also the Ramsey family wants to see someone else
20:32
Speaker 1: get involved, like an outside lab, like maybe even the
20:36
Speaker 1: FBI in a private lab. I'm I'm gonna digest what
20:39
Speaker 1: you just said, because it's a lot everybody. Karl McKenley
20:43
Speaker 1: joining me from the Colorado Gazette. What I'm hearing, and
20:46
Speaker 1: I'll boil it down, is all the items have not
20:49
Speaker 1: been tested and the ones that were tested, right, But
20:53
Speaker 1: I don't think we know that. I just ask you
20:55
Speaker 1: these questions and you gave me an answer, and you
20:58
Speaker 1: said you don't think all the items he's asking about
21:02
Speaker 1: we're tested. You told me the chord, the garrote, the flashlight.
21:06
Speaker 1: You think we're tested. But Ramsey's asking for a lot
21:09
Speaker 1: of other tests. And let me ask you to doctor
21:14
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree. There have been a lot of advances in
21:18
Speaker 1: DNA in the last six years. I doubt very seriously
21:22
Speaker 1: that some of the new technology has been used now. Also,
21:27
Speaker 1: we've got the genetic genealogy aspect that wasn't being used
21:33
Speaker 1: six years ago, So that's a whole other avenue. Absolutely, Nancy,
21:38
Speaker 1: and that is one thing that I think definitely should
21:41
Speaker 1: be tried. And you know, in medicine we always value
21:45
Speaker 1: a second opinion. I know, I'm a former law enforcement
21:47
Speaker 1: officer and I understand jurisdictional issues, but you know why
21:51
Speaker 1: such resistance. I mean, you know, they're a small department.
21:56
Speaker 1: Let's get somebody in there with new technology, with some
21:59
Speaker 1: new ideas. You know, that's what cold case files do.
22:02
Speaker 1: They bring in additional people with expertise, not specifically in
22:07
Speaker 1: that department. Take a listener. This is johm and A's father,
22:10
Speaker 1: John Ramsey at Crime con Listen to our friends at Fox. Yeah,
22:14
Speaker 1: they decided immediately that it must be the parents because
22:17
Speaker 1: they were in the house, and it's always the parents.
22:19
Speaker 1: Well that's that's not a good statistic Statistically, Yeah, sixteen
22:24
Speaker 1: ers of the time, it's a caregiver or a close relative.
22:28
Speaker 1: It's never hardly ever a case for there's no history.
22:32
Speaker 1: If there's a murder of a child and it's a caregiver,
22:35
Speaker 1: personal it's not probably a blood relative. It's a stepfather, stepfather,
22:41
Speaker 1: and there's a long history leading up to that. The
22:44
Speaker 1: neighbors know there's a problem of the family. The police
22:47
Speaker 1: have been called before, the schools know there's a problem
22:49
Speaker 1: of the family. If that doesn't exist, it's almost unheard
22:53
Speaker 1: of that a normal family would wake up and murder
22:58
Speaker 1: their child to go back to the normal it's just
23:00
Speaker 1: concerned and yet to say that, well, it must have
23:04
Speaker 1: been the family, because it's always a families. You got
23:08
Speaker 1: to dissect that from you know. Um, I want to
23:13
Speaker 1: take a look at John Ramsey. Look, I don't know him.
23:17
Speaker 1: I don't know Burke, I didn't know Patsy, uh, Carol mccanley.
23:22
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that at a certain point the Ramsey's
23:28
Speaker 1: refused to take Polly's you know? John Andrew Ramsey said
23:32
Speaker 1: that he and John Ramsey went into the police department
23:35
Speaker 1: and told a lot of what they knew. The weekend
23:38
Speaker 1: after John and Ay's body was found, they took a
23:42
Speaker 1: po they did refuse at the beginning, but about a
23:45
Speaker 1: year and a half after she was found, you know, murdered,
23:49
Speaker 1: he and Patsy Ramsey took a polygraph test. But they
23:52
Speaker 1: took three. And you know, Nancy as well as I do,
23:55
Speaker 1: you can't shop around for polygraph tests to find someone
23:59
Speaker 1: who's going to tell you that what you said, you
24:02
Speaker 1: know that you're not lying. They took three tests. The
24:06
Speaker 1: first two were quote in conclusive, so yes, they did
24:10
Speaker 1: take polygraph tests. The third, I think it was ed
24:14
Speaker 1: Gilb out of California, came back conclusive that they were
24:19
Speaker 1: telling the truth. And there was a big, old, huge
24:21
Speaker 1: to do about it. In Atlanta. I remember, they called
24:24
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of reporters. Everybody was there and they
24:27
Speaker 1: announced that the that they had passed the polygraph were
24:30
Speaker 1: those was the last polly conducted by a polygrapher that
24:35
Speaker 1: was hand picked by the Ramseys. Yes, Ed Gelb, Yeah, okay, um.
24:42
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, doctor Angela Arnold, what you
24:45
Speaker 1: make of John Ramsey speaking out publicly at crime conn
24:51
Speaker 1: just happened, asking that this case be taken away from
24:56
Speaker 1: local cops and that the items from this seen be
25:01
Speaker 1: DNA tested by another agency, retested or tested for the
25:07
Speaker 1: first time by another agency with new DNA technology, and
25:12
Speaker 1: that he will pay for it. Nancy, I agree with
25:15
Speaker 1: what you said about him doing thus. If he if
25:19
Speaker 1: he's willing to do thus, it shows his lack of guilt.
25:24
Speaker 1: He wants to find out once and for all who
25:28
Speaker 1: murdered his little girl when she was six years old.
25:31
Speaker 1: The fact that he's paying for it also shows his
25:34
Speaker 1: willingness to me to make this happen. He doesn't want
25:38
Speaker 1: any he doesn't want any roadblocks in the way of
25:40
Speaker 1: this happening. And I mean, Nancy, I would do it,
25:45
Speaker 1: wouldn't you. I would, I would want to. I would
25:47
Speaker 1: want to do everything I could to find out who
25:49
Speaker 1: my little girl's killer was, and also to clear my
25:53
Speaker 1: own name. I think there's part of that in here too,
25:56
Speaker 1: to clear his family's name, don't you now? There was
26:00
Speaker 1: a point Carol McKinley joining me, who knows the case
26:03
Speaker 1: like the back of her hand, joining me from the
26:05
Speaker 1: Colorado Gazette and the Denver Gazette dot Com. On Twitter,
26:09
Speaker 1: She's at Carol A. M Carol A. Mc kinley, Carol A. McKinley, Carol,
26:18
Speaker 1: was there a point where a grand jury indicted the Ramseys.
26:23
Speaker 1: They did, um that that information even though that grand
26:26
Speaker 1: jury was way way hush hush. A reporter file to
26:32
Speaker 1: get get the charges released, and they were indicted. John
26:36
Speaker 1: and Patchy were indicted for a form of child abuse
26:40
Speaker 1: resulting in death, almost a negligence charge. But the district
26:45
Speaker 1: attorney at the time, Alex Hunter, who was the original
26:48
Speaker 1: attorney on the King We've been through fourth but the
26:51
Speaker 1: original guy decided not to pursue those charges. Gerald Cohen
26:57
Speaker 1: um they were not indicted on It seems to me
27:01
Speaker 1: they were indicted on child abuse that allowed a murder
27:06
Speaker 1: to happen. I'm not quite sure what the grand jury
27:10
Speaker 1: was thinking. What do you make of that? I guess
27:13
Speaker 1: it would be a type of felony murder. But well, Nancy,
27:18
Speaker 1: I see that Patsy Ramsey and perhaps John did abuse
27:23
Speaker 1: that poor child. I see that she was in beauty.
27:27
Speaker 1: Can you see that from three thousand miles away? I'm
27:30
Speaker 1: curious because I see it in my mind in the
27:33
Speaker 1: same way. Now, well, he moved around the corner from
27:38
Speaker 1: where I was living, and that's another At the time
27:41
Speaker 1: with their murders. So you okay, you know after that murder,
27:44
Speaker 1: are you saying they abused her by putting her in
27:46
Speaker 1: the beauty pageants, not by just putting her in the
27:49
Speaker 1: beauty pageants, but by making have her made up and
27:54
Speaker 1: acting the way she does. And in my view with
27:56
Speaker 1: others would obviously disagree, that is absolute child Abut what
28:00
Speaker 1: they do. You know what, the day that Daryl Cohen,
28:05
Speaker 1: no offense becomes our moral compass we have, we're in
28:11
Speaker 1: the crapper. I'm not a moral compass. So I would
28:15
Speaker 1: not do that with my daughter because she's so so shy.
28:19
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's going to rise to child abuse.
28:23
Speaker 1: I was actually asking you a legal question, Daryl Cary,
28:27
Speaker 1: a legal question about the indictment of the grand jury
28:30
Speaker 1: many years ago of John and Patsy Ramsey. And it
28:34
Speaker 1: seems to me, based on what Carol is telling me,
28:37
Speaker 1: that it was a charge similar to neglect or creating
28:43
Speaker 1: a circumstance where someone could kill her, you know, like
28:47
Speaker 1: leaving a child alone in the parking lot in the
28:49
Speaker 1: car and then they get kidnapped. The parents didn't do it,
28:52
Speaker 1: but they created a circumstance. That's the way I understand
28:56
Speaker 1: that indictment. I am not as familiar with that indictment
28:59
Speaker 1: as I would like to be. But when you think
29:01
Speaker 1: about it, it's Christmas Day, it's Christmas night, there are
29:04
Speaker 1: people staying in the house. And how in the world
29:08
Speaker 1: would she be taken from her bedroom or wherever she
29:11
Speaker 1: was and found to cease on the bottom floor. How
29:15
Speaker 1: in the world would mob call without looking to see
29:18
Speaker 1: that she was kidnapped and then the police arrived and
29:22
Speaker 1: find her deceased. They said she wasn't shot, They said
29:26
Speaker 1: she wasn't stabbed. What does that tell you she was strangled?
29:31
Speaker 1: They stopped her if she was strangled or they put
29:33
Speaker 1: a pillow over her face. She also had a horrible
29:35
Speaker 1: blow to the head. Time stories with Nancy Grace. We
29:56
Speaker 1: have one of the highest child murdering of in the
29:59
Speaker 1: industrialized country in the world, and that we should be
30:02
Speaker 1: ashamed of that. What are we gonna do about, dude.
30:04
Speaker 1: We live in a very small town. Now, there's seven
30:06
Speaker 1: police officers. They had a pretty tragic thing happened a
30:11
Speaker 1: few months ago. They asked for help, Come help us,
30:13
Speaker 1: We need help. We know we can't solve this on
30:16
Speaker 1: our own. They did the right thing Volder did not.
30:19
Speaker 1: That's the one thing I'll fault the poor. They did
30:21
Speaker 1: not accept help from people and really knew what they
30:24
Speaker 1: were doing. In could of helps as a society and
30:27
Speaker 1: the murder of a child of federal effects so that
30:31
Speaker 1: all the resources of the federal government FBI, etc. Could
30:36
Speaker 1: come in automatically. You know, for example, the FBI has
30:43
Speaker 1: a immediate response to a child abduction unit. That's great,
30:48
Speaker 1: but we had to do the same thing for the
30:50
Speaker 1: murder of a child. Guys, John Ramsey, the father of
30:55
Speaker 1: John and A Ramsey, is coming forward, stepping into the
30:58
Speaker 1: spotlight and demanding the case be removed from Boulder Cops
31:03
Speaker 1: and that DNA testing be done or redone on all
31:07
Speaker 1: the items involved. What does it mean? Take a listen
31:12
Speaker 1: to our cut twelve. This is John Ramsey speaking. You know, they,
31:18
Speaker 1: I guess sadly made up their mind, you know, early,
31:21
Speaker 1: early on and mind. Don't confuse them the facts. They
31:25
Speaker 1: know the answer. That's dangerous. Firm society. Government moves based
31:34
Speaker 1: on public pressure. Their reactionary. You know, our government tends
31:40
Speaker 1: not to do things in anticipation of something. Enough public
31:46
Speaker 1: pressures bought in the governor the state of Colorado to
31:50
Speaker 1: the right thing. They will do the right thing. That's
31:53
Speaker 1: what we're hoping and I think that's what this petition
31:55
Speaker 1: could accomplished. We can't do it our role, we're not enough,
31:59
Speaker 1: there's not enough a muscle behind us. But people, large
32:05
Speaker 1: numbers of people can make things happen. Carol McKinley joining
32:10
Speaker 1: us from democasette dot com. Carol bottom line, do you
32:15
Speaker 1: think John Ramsey's demand is going to happen? Wow? What
32:19
Speaker 1: a great question. This case has gone through so many
32:24
Speaker 1: topsy turvy tumbles. You know, I'm fifty fifty I'd like
32:30
Speaker 1: to see it happen, But the Boulder Police are saying
32:34
Speaker 1: it's not going to You're not going to get it.
32:36
Speaker 1: We're already doing the job that we are supposed to
32:39
Speaker 1: be doing. We've already met with the FEDS. You can't
32:44
Speaker 1: take it out of our met with the FADS. They
32:46
Speaker 1: need to do more than meet with the FADS. They
32:48
Speaker 1: need the FATS to take over the case. And I
32:51
Speaker 1: agree with Carol. I think it's fifty fifty whether the
32:54
Speaker 1: case is taken on by the FADS and whether there
32:57
Speaker 1: will ever be new DNA testing. Well, the governor is
33:01
Speaker 1: coming out and saying he'll take a look at this.
33:03
Speaker 1: You know, there is a petition. I'm looking at it
33:06
Speaker 1: right now. We've got about fifty nine hundred signatures on
33:09
Speaker 1: that petition. I talked with the governor spokesman yesterday and
33:12
Speaker 1: he said the petition is still online, that they have
33:16
Speaker 1: yet to send it to the governor. But Jared Polis
33:19
Speaker 1: is from Boulder, He grew up there. He knows about,
33:24
Speaker 1: you know, this case from a personal perspective, and he
33:30
Speaker 1: says he wants to find the killer. Now, we've had
33:34
Speaker 1: many governors since John and A Ramsey died, one of
33:37
Speaker 1: whom told the Ramseys to come out from behind their
33:40
Speaker 1: lawyers and come clean. So lots of different reactions from
33:46
Speaker 1: different governors in Colorado. Who knows whether this is going
33:49
Speaker 1: to mean anything to the investigation. We wait as justice unfals.
33:55
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, Goodbye, m