Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Enneagram Six and Faith | Church, Community & "All Shall Be Well" with Sarah Jackson

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The Enneagram Six and Faith | Church, Community & "All Shall Be Well" with Sarah Jackson · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: My experience of the church was not something just shiny all the time.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: I saw my parents hurt by the church, but I think I what I saw in my family of origin was that they stayed in the big C church.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: I can hold nuance, you know.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's a huge part of a Six's work, right?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Is to be able to parse out the difference between a feeling and a thought.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not always aware of the expectations of others, but I am aware of the difference between um anxiety that comes from like a performance-based community versus a more contemplative community.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: It is my deepest yearning that all shall be well, that we are held, that there is good here, that it's gonna be okay.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Today I am thrilled to have a sort of a friend.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: We don't get to live near each other, but I get to watch Sarah Jackson from afar, whether it's as she serves her church or in this new, not so new, but a rebirth of her spiritual direction work.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I am looking forward to diving into your world, Sarah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for coming in and sharing your unique perspective of living as a six and the spiritual direction element in line with the church, the local church.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, Amy.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad to be here.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get to the story right away about discovering your personality type.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've heard from your husband, Jason, and we even unpacked a little bit about the dynamic of a one and six in marriage, which is really fascinating.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure we'll work in the It's great.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was good.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was such a great aspect.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: But where did you discover your type?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: What did that look like?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's that journey been?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in 2013, I was introduced to the Enneagram through some people that I worked with.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was working at Asbury Theological Seminary, and um, we actually were offered a retreat.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so this nun, Sister Barbara, took us on a two-day retreat and kind of gave us the whole overview, which is so beautiful because to experience it in that verbal format was so powerful.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so it took me a little bit to type myself, which I hear is common for sixes.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then I I read the The Wisdom of the Enneagram and wept while reading the six.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: So essentially just decided, well, that must be me.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I was surprised.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: I thought I didn't know I had so much fear.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then I started recalling situations in my life where I did things that for me just they felt like, oh, this is just what you do in this situation.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I looked back at it and went, You're so afraid.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: You're so afraid.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so yeah, it was revelatory and revolutionary.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I have been studying ever since, have done um a certification in Enneagram harmony triad theory.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: So that kind of brought a nuance versus just the arrow theory.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I love it.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's so good.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would take every Enneagram course up there if I it's endlessly interesting.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm constantly learning a new element.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love to hear because you did say that sixes sometimes can be hard to type or to find their type.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's what I've been surprised in the last year, in my experience of coaching, that six has been a harder type for people to land on.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm commonly seeing a four or three, even being a mistyping direction, and sometimes a nine.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I I'd just be curious for you, as you looked at the different types, what are the other ones that resonated in that journey before you were comfortable with going the six tells the story, it gives some the explanation.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: The three.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I I played with the two a little bit, but it was just kind of that.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think what I've realized as a six is I like people to be helped, but I'm not the two that needs to be the one who'd like to help people.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: I just want them to be helped.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was like a distinction for me.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: The four, I think, as far as just endless curiosity and the the ability to kind of go deep into something, except I'm going deep into my thought life, not my emotional life.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was a distinction eventually, too.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah, probably the three, two, four element.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: The heart triad, interestingly enough.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oddly enough, and I'm very much suppressing emotions.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's the last thing I go to.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm that was, yeah, maybe I just looked at it and thought, oh, good for them.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wish I could be like that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's so that that how that plays out.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I do in the whole hearted community, I'm constantly inviting people to to have you gone through the whole hearted way, or have you just seen a description that was one inch deep and assigned yourself a number?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because to your point, getting to hear in a narrative tradition and in a an intentional retreat atmosphere, that's pretty big.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And most of us don't give ourselves to the process of that.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you like the WEPS inventory, but that inventory helped me see what other types that I like, what percentage of other maybe motives or behaviors do I also connect with.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that helped me see, oh, I have a super strong seven wing.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's as almost as strong as what I identify with the six.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so that helped me nuance my type as well.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, that's awesome.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to parse it out a little bit, kind of helps too to be like, oh, I have a parent that's this type.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I have a parent who's an eight.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so I have a I have some eight-ish tendencies, but I'm not an eight.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's not my motivation.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or even how the counterphobic aspect of the six would show up for you based on that overlay.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it really bugs me when the stereotype of the six is this like hand-wringing, you know, someone who just doesn't get out much and wants to just everybody be safe, you know.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I can be like that, but I don't like that part of myself.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't constantly identify with that.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: If anything, I kind of get aggressive when I'm worried about something.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you never know.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's important because the stereotypes do put us in a box.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm an advocate of how about we just find the box you're in because it gives us the way out and gets us through to the other side for transformation's sake.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Not in staying in these patterns that are maladaptive and not helpful at the end of the day.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: Especially if I just continuing to like dismiss other centers.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: For me to like continually dismiss my emotional center is not helpful to me.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I really do need to find that connection with both the three and the nine in me and integrate wholeheartedly, you know.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, absolutely.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to give a lot of air time to some of what is a very current and common conversation, which is our relationship with the church and local community.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is the leadership healthy?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are they trustworthy?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Who do we seek out in guidance and shepherding?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of questions and a lot of conversation around this.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that while your journey has been unique, you also have a longtime history with the church and in serving in the local body.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I just give us some insight.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Start us there.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I know yours is unique as a six, but then also in the positions you've held.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: But how do we lean into this space where we're supposed to be real and vulnerable and it should be safe, but it isn't always?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: So a little background for me is that I grew up in um a Protestant, mostly evangelical, but sometimes more mainline denominational experience.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: And um, we lived in a few different states.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so my experience of the church was not something just shiny all the time.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: I saw my parents hurt by the church.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I think I what I saw in my family of origin was that they stayed in the big C church and had an appreciation for just an ecumenical appreciation.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: There wasn't like, well, this is the way that everyone should do it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so I do appreciate that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think that formed me, obviously, as a six, someone who's looking for, okay, well, where's the safe place to be?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: It has been um somewhat either maybe if not easy, at least possible for me to differentiate the church as an institution from the people that make up leadership in the church or a church community.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so for me, it's been helpful, even with working with people, regardless of their type, with church hurt, is instead of just saying, like, the church has hurt me, can you name people?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: Can you talk about actual relational experiences?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then can we go from there into like, okay, where's their brokenness institutionally, et cetera?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that for me has been important because I've seen terrible things.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: I've also seen some of the most beautiful things of ever, and have experienced both ways I've uh contributed to brokenness in the Big C church.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: And there are people who would say, that's someone who hurt me.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's someone who did not show me what it's like to be, you know, a person of God.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and yet I've also experienced healing from people in the church too.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's some seeing that kind of play out in a way as a child, but also having just a very fortunate experience with parents who showed me both grief and loyalty, you know, that became important for me.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know in that seven wing is also just it's really, I need to know that there is hope.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't like bad cop stories or bad, you know, it's all going down like from the inside, because I'm like, no, we have to see at least one person who's gonna like stand strong.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I love Moses.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: Moses is like my favorite story, favorite character in scripture because I'm like, he was scared, he went in there scared, but he's like, we're gonna do this, and I will help guide you and get you out of this terrible situation.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so I personally just while I can see like, oh my gosh, there's all these fires everywhere, what's gonna happen?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that wing of mine helps me hold trust, like something good is gonna come because it can't all burn to the ground.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: I can't bear that life.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's so real.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's don't so my experience has been both as a staff member, as a licensed pastor, as a spiritual director in the last 10 years.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm married to a pastor.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: I have kids who have their different relationships with the church, and then obviously most of the people that I communicate with or relate with are either a part of the big C church or have been at one point.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, both my husband and I have been to seminaries, so there was a lot of idealism that we experienced about what the church could be.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what I've noticed in especially working with sixes who have been hurt in the church, that it is it's very easy to take that experience and then unconsciously use it to constantly compare to current situations.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: If there was a leader I liked, then all the leaders get compared to that leader and they either fall short or they measure up.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: If there's a leader that I couldn't stand or that I mistrusted or who hurt me, then I'm constantly comparing what other people do.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, is that mean that they're gonna end up being like that?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: I can either go like all in or get really skeptical, just kind of depending on the vibe that I get.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd love to know if other sixes feel that way as well.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: If there's just like this vibe check constantly of like, are you trustworthy?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Are you not?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: But sometimes it means that sixes can end up being super loyal to the church because they're like, I can sort of differentiate, I can hold nuance, you know.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's a huge part of a six's work, right?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Is to be able to parse out the difference between a feeling and a thought, to not just constantly be looking for the bad guy or who to blame, to not like swing to another end of a spectrum because of an experience or a particular person.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I think when sixes can really do that nuancing work, they can experience stability even in hard situations.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah, I you even allude to something, and part of it is the uh almost a perspective ability that a six has that I would relate to the inner committee.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the inner committee can be helpful and sometimes it can be harmful.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, where does that look like, or what does it look like to use the gift of the inner committee for making a choice that's healthier?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's an upstream practice, yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a more difficult decision that doesn't isn't that necessarily innate.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you how do we work that going this inner committee could be a curse, but it could also be a blessing, especially as we're examining these different elements, because you bring up a lot of good points as a sixes, taking all of this in and considering.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think the inner committee mostly just focuses on thoughts and facts and logic.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: And what I need is some people at the table, so to speak.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes that actually comes from external relationships, right?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, friends who help me get there who really care about what are the feelings that are informing those thoughts.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's really hard for me to parse out because I can show emotion to other people, but I'm not aware that I'm feeling it necessarily.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: So for instance, I might like, let's just put my dear husband on the stand.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: He would probably say that he can tell when I'm feeling anxious because I make angry comments or I criticize more easily, or I verbally process things in this heated way, um, or I'm very skeptical.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: So he experiences it as anger.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: If I can get in touch with that, what I find usually is I'm not angry, I'm afraid.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm using that to try to energize myself.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sometimes the deepest work, at least for me, is to allow that, allow sadness to quiet the inner committee.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like if I can actually get in touch with grief, if I can get in touch with, oh, I'm sad.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like this actually can't just be fixed by overthinking it, by thinking it through.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: I actually need to take some space to just experience grief.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: That is the quietest the inner committee gets.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually feel really supported in that quiet, in that grief.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: I know that's a relationship with God, that's a relationship with love.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: But I think I actually feel seen by that inner committee as well.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: And everyone's just going, wow, this is hard.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very calming.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then after the grief, I'm not usually one to stay in it super long, trying trying to learn how to like stay in it longer.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: But once that grief can be named, it does feel like only the voices that are really helpful speak up.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting that grief could be a unifier of the voices and um inviting all the different parts to see that pain instead of the parts conflicting or contradicting, as if we shouldn't, maybe by the bypassing voices that sometimes come into play, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: But if you just instead you go, nope, I'm gonna acknowledge it, I'm gonna sit with it, I'm going to hold it into the light and the and the truth of who God is and that he cares and is holding me and crying with me.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: That that changes it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really beautiful.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for sharing that.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've heard that insight from a six.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Really good.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just gave a six a huge compliment.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, kind of, yeah, totally.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for going there because it was a little bit off script, but I I think it's an important differentiator for the Enneagram Six in particular, just as the inner the inner critic is for the one, because those do play a large part of the story that not every type experiences.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that has been a conversation also recently with a couple of gals who are coming to a realization that they're type six is that there is a lot of there is a lot of work to be done around benevolent detachment.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that is what you talked about before, wanting everybody to be helped, not necessarily to be the helper, yeah, but owning some aspect of that when others are struggling or going through crisis.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so that often is a a pain point in connection with community in the church, either because it's been overused or demanded or uh required at some level.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does a six parse that out, especially as a pastor's wife, spiritual director, but all the different roles that you've played through the years in community?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do I handle like what is a healthy role to play or healthy expectations?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, good question.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um I have found that my own expectations are a large part of my experience with grief and disappointment.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not always aware of the expectations of others, but I am aware of the difference between um anxiety that comes from like a performance-based community versus a more contemplative community.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so one of the things that has just kind of really impacted my experience in the church has been some groups that we were a part of that were focusing on spiritual friendship, were focusing on the kinds of like soul conversations in community where honesty, truth telling is a huge part of it, but then so is forgiving and releasing each other.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And this was not a movement of like, all right, here's you have to share your deepest, darkest secret all the time or anything like that.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was just, it was, they were communities that were based on like weekly connection, structured, prayerful, honest, bless you, move on, kind of thing.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I found that that is a place where I could really parse out the difference between my detachment that comes from self-protection.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like if I can tell that someone's got a lot of a lot of X kind of a radar for like, oh, is this person a safe person or not?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty easy for me to just, oh, I'm just gonna back up a little bit, not gonna give that person too much of my energy or resources because they will take.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: That is not holy indifference.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: That is self-protection, you know, versus the courage that it takes to offer something and then let go, or to actually say hard no's or hard goodbyes, that kind of ability to sort of manage.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to reject you or even change you in order to be close or distance myself healthily from you.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: I can be healthy differentiated from you.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think being in a community where we talk about those types of things weekly, regularly, we're honest with ourselves and with God.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: We look at our self-protection, we look at the things that the motives behind our actions, et cetera, like that has been a very healing way of experiencing loving community to me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So wow, I think it can be pretty pretty easy for me to be self protective and call it health.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not nice.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you used a phrase I think is important for you to just to give a moment to, because I imagine possibly.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly my friend heard you say performance community versus genuine community.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are the phrases you maybe used.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Give us a just a flash of maybe we haven't thought about it in that way before or just consideration.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Am I am I in a performance community or a genuine community?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And how is that changing how I show up or feel safe even?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think I said contemplative community, which probably isn't the right word.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think genuine community is I'm here for it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're creating here.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think, yeah, a performance-based community to me is a place where there's a lot of emphasis on what things look like, a lot of emphasis on who is special, who has skills, who has gifts, like how productive and efficient everyone is.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: These are not more, as it's not a moral judgment.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's just that for me as a six, that really can pull me into this feeling that being special, being significant, sticking out above everybody else is the most important thing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that kind of pulls at the innate gift that God gave the six, which is like, no, we're together.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like let's let's hold, you know, hold each other and be together.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I've been a part of communities where maybe there's a lot, maybe the leaders are three, and maybe there's a lot of health in that as far as like, hey, we need to do things with excellence, and we don't just sit around talking about things all day, like let's actually get some things done.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: But when I've been a part of unhealthy communities where there was a lot of emphasis on what things look like, who was in, who was out, who was special, who was needed at the moment, but then later they're not, that is anxiety-producing for me.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: And but I've been a part of other communities where it seemed like there was a desire to go a little slower, to appreciate, again, the word nuance, like appreciate the distinction or the nuance that each unique person offers in a community and to make decisions based on need or based on as a community, where are we going?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go there together.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: Let's not leave anyone behind or push people to the side because they're not important, they shouldn't be a part of this, et cetera.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I think some of those groups that I've been a part of, I mentioned before.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, like Jason and I offered a group when we first moved to the springs for singles over 30.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: And we met weekly, we had dinner together, we had some of these real soul conversations.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: We created a safe place so that there wasn't like fixing each other or breaking confidentiality, et cetera.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: At least we tried to.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: And there was something about that that was very leveling.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like, oh, you're the pastor, and so we're gonna be here to listen to you, and we're just gonna receive what you want.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: There was like, no, I'm gonna answer this same question with you, and we're we're gonna talk about things appropriately, but together.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really important to me as a six.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: That I feel like, hey, you can mess up, you can sin, you can fail, and we will work through that together.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: We will hold you when you need to be held, and you're gonna be holding someone when they need to be held too.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we have somewhere we're going together.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is rich, Sarah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I think you, I'll just say here, you gave me language for something that I felt and tried to create and tried to find.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you parse that out really well.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a number of my friends who would probably listen to this conversation going, yes, that is it.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we're as the over the years, I've constantly invited the community to contemplative practices.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: But when you say contemplative community, that is it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: The going slower, the pausing, the waiting, the seeing, inviting others to that process to go deep, because that the contemplative itself requires you to go deep instead of rushing and maybe going big.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, it requires honesty too, which is very easy to you know lose when you're just going fast.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which our culture loves and celebrates.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point, it fast isn't always bad, but is it the best for us for the soul care that we need, for the soul growth that I hope we long for and desire, but we definitely need.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh this is really good.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many faces.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's too short.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's too short.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um okay, a couple more questions as we we round out.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to hear maybe as someone who has uh has sat with maybe others in their hardest moments, maybe you would have something specific to say that you think a six would need to hear or that would be helpful to hear in those moments.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what would that look like?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, um, a couple of things.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: I I it was a few years into my exploration of Enneagram knowledge before I came across the defense mechanism of splitting.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that was really helpful for me personally to recognize that I do that a lot, probably even more than like projection.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: I will do splitting, meaning there's some unconscious work that I'm trying to do mentally to find out like who is safe, who is not, who is good, who is not, who's on the right side of things, who's on the wrong side of things, so that I can place myself against that thing or for that thing.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that happens with God all the time, right?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it is easy for us as sixes to also split God.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And for some people, that means like God is always safe, I can always go to God.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: But then unconsciously there's this sense of like, but I'm not God, so I'm bad, and a real tendency towards shame, or vice versa, someone who maybe has been disappointed in the church or disappointed because God didn't do something the way they think that God should.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so God is bad, and now I can't trust God at all, but that's still splitting, right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so the call to the six in health is to understand that there is mystery here.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: There is there's something more than what we can just parse out into these little boxes.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's helped me in my relationship with God and with people who are looking for like how do I trust and who do I trust.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: But also, I think the the words of Julian Norrich, and I know this wasn't just about comfort, this was actually about like sin and hardship in the world, but those words from Julian Norrich where she she received this revelation of the love of God and just heard this voice saying, All shall be well.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: If I ever get a tattoo, that's what I'm getting.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's something about sitting with that, letting it go deep inside.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: It is my deepest yearning that all shall be well, that we are held, that there is good here, that it's gonna be okay.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think recognizing where my splitting is keeping me from looking to God and hearing that voice of love saying, I'm here, I've got you.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like there is good happening, there is a plan here.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: I have not abandoned you.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: That means a lot to me as a six.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is beautiful.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am so grateful that you brought this element up because this is something that a lot of our conversations can't go as deeply for time and just experience, and that you could name that so well.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: On a practical note, as maybe a friend who's listening who has their lens is a six, and that's they maybe they even had it clarified in this conversation of like, oh, this explains everything.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: This gives me language I didn't have before.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I see what I didn't see before.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: But what is a practical thing to try in the relationship with the Lord or even community, our hope for this process, the wholehearted Enneagram, is that it is for transformation, not just to name where we are, where we find ourselves, but where do we go from here?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: Probably two practical things I can offer that are helpful to me.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: One is when feeling anxious or disturbed or some sort of like desolation, like I just can't, I'm feeling upset or restless.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: Parsing out the difference between narratives and emotions is huge.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: So a simple question like, what's the story I'm telling myself?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or what's the image that I have of God right now?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: What's the narrative I have about this person or this situation or about myself right now?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Is huge.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's a thought.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then parsing that out from what am I feeling?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then, secondly, a practical thing is once I'm able to distinguish, like, oh, there's some thoughts I'm having about a person, about myself, about a situation, I have found the welcoming prayer.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know this?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's I don't know if Thomas Merton or it's often can attributed to someone named Mary Murzowski, but it's called the welcoming prayer.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: You can Google it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it just simply walks through this liturgy of I welcome every person, every thought, every feeling because I know it's for my healing.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: I let go of the desire for security.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: I usually have to say that a lot of times.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: I let go of the desire for approval, for control.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then finally you move into I open myself to the love and presence of God and the healing action and grace within.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: So that sort of release of my desires, my control, my disturbance, my need for security, and then falling back into oh, I receive the love and the presence of God, which is holding me together.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: Even just that practical prayer has helped me like breathe through some things and yeah, feel more settled.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is gold, Sarah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I know that my friend listening is gonna go Google the multi-bit prayer or AI it, whatever.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: It'll come fast.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, one of the reasons that I've loved the church there in the springs is the practice of liturgy as a congregation.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you are you love these prayers that are pre-written and pre-designed, and you just demonstrated owning it and taking the parts that you need many times.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the gift of liturgy.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's the gift of written prayer, is that it's not trite, it's not rote, it is using words to help give us language for things we cannot express on our own.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I love thinking like someone prayed this prayer, like someone else, probably many other people have said these same words, feeling the same way I'm feeling.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: It feels so communal to me.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, it is grounding communal and remembering, oh, yeah, if God has taken care of them before, he will take care and meet me here in this moment right now.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we're safe.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah, I know you and I could talk for hours, just all the different shared loves and the commonalities.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this was really beautiful, and I think ties up the month for the Enneagram Six in such a way that I couldn't orchestrate because we started the little bonus episode with my daughter Paige, who had been debating if she is six or seven, and you know, just some of that conversation and just tying into you of how those parts of us, it's not it's not so myopic or siloed.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Those parts of us really play in the story, and I think you demonstrate what that looks like for you as you've practiced and processed and all of that.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: So beautiful.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for the opportunity.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: This was lovely for me too.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuff point.