Latest / Sunlight Matters / Cities of Light, Cities of Shadow

Transcript

Cities of Light, Cities of Shadow · Sunlight Matters

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: In the an ideal world, you would not have buildings that have uh uh artificial light switched on during the day because the daylight provision is enough for people to you know to do their work, to go about their activities, uh, and have enough good daylight provision for their health.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens in reality is that it's not enough, and we are always um adding to what's not there.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: When you plan daylight, you you plan how light would fall inside the building, given the openings that we design.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And with artificial lighting is the opposite way, and what I think lighting designers really like a lot to do is to imagine how buildings uh glow from inside.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we uh the the the starting point is always you have uh space that is completely dark, but what happens many times is that the daylight provision is very very low already in buildings, and so this complement becomes the main source of light, the artificial light instead of the daylight.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: When we when we plan daylight, we plan buildings um as a lantern, uh but in the reversed way, right?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So a lantern emits light from inside to the outside, and when you plan daylight, you you plan how light will fall inside, and with artificial lighting is the opposite, and what I think uh lighting designers really like a lot to do is to imagine how buildings uh glow from inside.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: The exercise of lighting design starts with the dark space, and you kind of start painting the lighting, and you design uh the lighting for uh for museums, for office spaces, for um um supermarkets, uh commercial buildings, etc.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: From the the beginning as if as if they were a dark space.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us with the sun.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Join us as we explore the power and influence of our star, the force at the heart of everything.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode we speak with leading experts to uncover the ways sunlight shapes our world.
• 2:31
  Dave Wallace: Paula, welcome to Sunlight Matters.
• 2:33
  Dave Wallace: I'm delighted to have you.
• 2:35
  Dave Wallace: I wonder if you could start by uh just giving a brief introduction to yourself and what you do.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thanks, Dave.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the invite.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really happy to be here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um I am a trained architect.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I come from Brazil.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and very early in my uh the student career, even I started working with lighting, lighting design uh back in Brazil.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that after my studies, I and starting my uh professional career, I wanted to go a little bit deeper in lighting design, and I came to Germany uh to do the master's uh in Wisma.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And ended up staying, and that is almost 20 years ago now.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um I'm really happy to be here, and my lighting design life has been really uh diverse.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been doing designs for smaller projects, larger projects, airports, uh you name it, master plans even.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And a passion of mine is really uh daylight because when I came to Germany, I realized that um it was a kind of a shock because I saw that you know the abundance of daylight that I had in uh in Brazil, uh in Sao Paulo was not the same.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I my body was exposed um to a lot less uh natural light, and that became quite a large interest of mine, also having studied a little bit of you know daylight provision in architecture, in in my architecture studies.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to develop a little bit deeper understanding on this and um yeah, and and and practicing daylight consultation, daylight design, uh together with uh colleagues, uh, which is really nice because I see daylight as a a multidiscipline um uh science if you want.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, you cannot design daylight um as an architect alone or as a lighting designer alone.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um we also need building physicists uh to to take care of different aspects of daylight and also facade uh planner.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think it's a nice you know combination of multi multi-design approach.
• 4:59
  Dave Wallace: No, I mean it's it's fascinating.
• 5:01
  Dave Wallace: So you I mean in terms of I I guess just to um understand more about what that means.
• 5:08
  Dave Wallace: So when you're involved in a project, are you uh trying to understand what the daylight aspect will be, the the sort of heating, uh the the lighting, you know, the the sort of whole holistic picture?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we uh when we start a project, we tend to analyze uh the weather situation, the the layout situation, the orientation of the building that the architects are proposing, openings.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we start with doing uh you know shadow analysis or sunlight penetration analysis, which are these days uh kind of an easy analysis to do, and they are really informative in the sense of we know uh how many hours of sunlight a facade will get or uh uh you know a floor plate would get uh given the openings that the architects are planning.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we have a very good idea of what's going on.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Then uh we start shaping the windows, the openings, the skylights with the architects, whether we want more sunlight to come in or no sunlight at all.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, in museums, uh we always take care that there is daylight but in a more diffuse manner coming in.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So this all it it depends on the use of the space, I guess, and also uh the orientation and and and what is available outside.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because um, you know, um if we are in a very dense part of a city, uh we need to make sure that we are not only analyzing the building itself, we are analyzing the whole context uh of where the building is inserted in uh in this urban environment.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this means that buildings can shade other buildings.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it this means that also buildings can reflect sunlight in from different directions that are not expected, uh usually, you know.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's uh yeah.
• 7:14
  Dave Wallace: So that's Well I I mean it's you it it's it's really interesting because I've just come back from New York and I New York is a very dark city, but to your point, is you suddenly get dazzled by light from reflected sunlight off some of these glass fronted buildings.
• 7:32
  Dave Wallace: And I I guess I look at New York and New York's a fabulous place, but it it it's not you don't go for a suntan, basically, do you?
• 7:42
  Dave Wallace: You know, I I spent a few days with Shadow Map out chasing pools of light, just just to sort of see how easy it would be to find sunshine.
• 7:51
  Dave Wallace: But I guess one of the things that you then sort of realize is that I mean, if your job would be quite difficult, I think, in New York.
• 8:00
  Dave Wallace: Because holistically, I'm guessing that nobody sat down and said, well, you know, as we're planning the city, let let's really focus on how we get the maximum and amount of daylight.
• 8:12
  Dave Wallace: I mean, daylight is still and sunlight are still sort of fairly low down the priorities of things, aren't they?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, unfortunately, this is true.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh there are many uh different um aspects that uh a city planner must take into account.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the uh transportation, uh whether there are parks, uh how uh dense uh the uh the plots would be, what are the uses they um they need to plan, and all this kind of thing.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And daylight access, which is uh from our perspective really, really important.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Daylight in the sense of diffuse light and direct sunlight for uh for our health.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um they are important aspects to provide in a in the urban context.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, yes, to your point, New York is a very dark um daylight city, if you want.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's not really a daylight city, it's a dark city.
• 9:10
  Dave Wallace: It's a city of shadows mainly.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is true, yes, because uh you know, all the tall buildings and uh they create a very um narrow or blocked view to the sky, if you want.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go close to a window in uh in a building in New York, you would see perhaps not it's not a lot of the sky, if any sky could um patch at all.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um and I think in the past, uh when um cities uh were not as dense, or construction techniques techniques could not uh build as uh tall uh buildings as we have today, um that was less of a concern because it was naturally uh lower uh building blocks that we had in the past, you know.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the streets were also wider uh in a way.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um so and I think from the medieval times where you know the streets were not really wide and people really uh living in uh in dark conditions, we gained the knowledge that sunlight uh is uh sanit has a sanitation aspect uh to it.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we developed then cities that were catering for these aspects that we have airflow, that we have uh sunlight, that we can uh have water distribution all contributing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So sunlight is a very important part of uh of that, which uh we are now seeing um not as important aspect of city planning as it should have.
• 10:53
  Dave Wallace: Yeah, I mean, and and you know, I guess this is actually sort of for you, you've kind of been focused on it, but like as I talk to people, I realize there's a this is this is fairly niche still in terms of what people are kind of thinking about, but it's it's vitally important.
• 11:12
  Dave Wallace: You know, um I I was also before New York, I was in Dubai, and Dubai is a glass city, um you know, where there is I mean everything seems to be just sort of glass fronted.
• 11:27
  Dave Wallace: People live a very indoor lifestyle, you you know, so you kind of look at the buildings and they do get plenty of daylight probably coming through.
• 11:37
  Dave Wallace: Um, but you you know what they're not though those are sort of like uh blocking uh most of the sun's rays in terms of sort of infrared because of heating and things like that.
• 11:49
  Dave Wallace: Um so you you know, the although they're they sort of look, you know, look incredible, they may not be sort of uh giving the the the the the the healthy the sort of healthy um wavelengths that people kind of need in order to sort of function properly as uh uh as people.
• 12:09
  Dave Wallace: So you know it's kind of interesting like what what's going on in Dubai, because it it seems that the aesthetic is overriding the um anything else, basically.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is true.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we see this a lot actually, and um uh you know, this kind of internationalized uh way of planning architecture, uh which is a shame because uh the variety of daylight conditions we have uh around the globe uh is uh something that in my opinion should be uh taken into account, taken into consideration.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, in the past we had uh vernacular architecture, and this architecture was developed for the spaces uh with the weather conditions uh including uh daylight conditions uh that were present in these spaces.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we kind of tend to forget uh that this is an important um learning uh from the past, so from so many years of people building spaces and uh you know understanding what works and what doesn't.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and today we uh we copy-paste architecture from one place to the other, uh, and there are these harsh conditions that you're mentioning, uh, for example, in Dubai, that need a different approach.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it doesn't have to mean that we that we just do vernacular architecture again, but we can do vernacular architecture in a more very technical way, uh but we just need to consider this aspects.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And many times I think we we miss um um the local consideration in terms of weather conditions.
• 14:08
  Dave Wallace: But I I mean and you know, with I guess these big cities, it's not just sort of sunlight, daylight, shadows.
• 14:14
  Dave Wallace: I mean w again, New York, it felt like you're in a wind tunnel when you you're sort of on Fifth Avenue.
• 14:22
  Dave Wallace: They they're there's a sort of canyon type effect of all the big buildings as well.
• 14:26
  Dave Wallace: So these cities are kind of creating their own like microclimates, aren't they?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they are.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: They are creating their own microclimate, and it's very interesting because uh we we help kind of shape this mic this microclimate that we uh have not really planned to and have sometimes it it feels like we don't really have the control.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So in New York you have these very tall buildings next to each other, and they are canyons uh uh which are uh blocking and and projecting uh blocking sunlight and projecting shadow, but also having this tunnel effect where you have very strong winds uh running through these uh streets.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it's interesting because it's the you know what is the microclimate that we have in a pristine uh kind of uh area, and what is the microclimate then we have afterwards?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we do have in cities we have this so-called um heat islands, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because um the material that we have in buildings, they absorb the sunlight and they keep the sunlight, and the climate changes, and it's very different from a space where you have a very uh large amount of vegetation.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we do we are shaping our environment in a way that it we may not be able to control.
• 15:56
  Dave Wallace: No, it it's it's interesting, and I I mean I lot I really like your point about sort of copying and pasting architectural styles around the world.
• 16:06
  Dave Wallace: And yes, you know, I think just basically understanding the importance of sunlight and daylight and outside spaces as well.
• 16:15
  Dave Wallace: So you know, one of the things uh I've been pondering is is is Hong Kong as well, which is another uh city of skyscrapers, uh, and yet it doesn't seem to be so badly afflicted by the kind of canyonization that New York is, and um you know, people in Hong Kong, I think it's it's almost a blue zone, like the life expectancy in Hong Kong is is pretty pretty high, and you kind of sort of wonder why that might be.
• 16:45
  Dave Wallace: So, I mean, for instance, I like the rate of diabetes in the UAE is something like awful, like 21%.
• 16:57
  Dave Wallace: And one of the reasons I think that is, is because people are not going outside enough, uh, they're not getting infrared light, they're in LED sort of lit spaces their whole time.
• 17:08
  Dave Wallace: I mean, there's obviously other considerations like the you know, the food that people are eating and sort of lack of yeah, but you you know, you sort of then think about Hong Kong, where people live long, you know, life expectancy is long and you know it doesn't have the same problems of things like diabetes.
• 17:26
  Dave Wallace: But Hong Kong is you know, it's a thin strip of like skyscrapers, and then you've kind of got greenery everywhere.
• 17:33
  Dave Wallace: There's a lot of outside space there, isn't there?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's true.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And also Hong Kong has a different uh topography than New York, if you want to compare, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Hong Kong is a kind of a a mountain um island where they built uh loads of skyscrapers.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Even even if you have this feeling of very dense uh compare dense cities, uh city compared to New York, and it is comparable.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: The topography is quite different.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this uh wind tunnel effect that you would have in in New York might not be the case for Hong Kong because it's just a different topography.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: The heights uh of the streets uh change and you have a natural uh differentiation on how wind and light would touch on the surfaces.
• 18:30
  Dave Wallace: If you're enjoying Sunlight Matters, make sure to subscribe and leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
• 18:37
  Dave Wallace: You can also search Sunlight Matters on Google to find more episodes, guest information, and further insights about sunlight analysis, solar exposure, and the way light shapes our spaces.
• 18:51
  Dave Wallace: But you I mean you are also very close to kind of greenery in Hong Kong.
• 18:57
  Dave Wallace: So you know, most places you can kind of turn around and have a look and you can see green mountains, and you know, so I wonder if the sort of I I I mean I heard a fascinating talk on green light recently, which is so I don't know if you've you've you've kind of dealt into green light at all, but the uh Arizona State University are doing research which shows that green light can be used as an analgesic, so it can be used for pain relief.
• 19:23
  Dave Wallace: So, and you know, it it's kind of fascinating because in Hong Kong you you you've got access to that kind of green light by the vegetation on the kind of mountains, and again, Dubai, you don't have that, New York you don't have that so much.
• 19:40
  Dave Wallace: Um that's true.
• 19:41
  Dave Wallace: But again, it's amazing because you do have like Central Park in in New York, and I mean that's always just full of people.
• 19:48
  Dave Wallace: So people kind of gravitate to these spaces, don't they?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they do, and it's very important to have this kind of lens uh in such a dense uh city, not only for you know, providing the air, but also providing the space for people to to um to exercise, to move, to go outside, and it's really, really important.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's you know, this green light uh study it's very interesting because it does make sense, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: We are a species developed under uh the trees, under daylight.
• 20:21
  Dave Wallace: So we do have and our peak uh acuity in vision is on the green um uh spectrum of uh of light so it all makes sense that we are very comfortable and and uh under it under under this kind of uh more greenish uh light um and it also makes sense that it it is it has a calming effect too um so I think um would what would be important in terms of um you know this natural provision is uh if we can develop cities that have uh more access to to sunlight to daylight and we can grow uh trees and plants and vegetation and even food maybe uh that would not only help with the with our health but also the microclimate of the cities where we live in no it's it it's fascinating so I I want to talk about lighting now as well because uh you know I'm I'm keen to understand from a kind of architectural point point of view so when you're doing kind of daylight analysis on a on a new build you you're the what the way you're looking at it is very much from a kind of the visual perspective isn't it rather than you know people absorbing wavelengths of light and and and how do you then because you know how do you then balance that with artificial light and what what are your kind of thoughts on artificial light it it it it must be again I guess the reason I'm asking it is because it sort of feels like people just do it and they don't really think about that kind of relationship at all.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes uh it's very interesting because um my theory is that when we when we plan daylight we plan buildings um as a lantern uh but in the reversed way right so a lantern emits light from inside to the outside and when you plan daylight you you plan how light would fall inside the building given the openings that you that we design.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And with artificial lighting is the opposite way.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what I think lighting designers really like a lot to do is to imagine how buildings uh glow from inside and the the exercise of lighting design starts with a dark space and you kind of start painting the light right so we all the the the starting point is always you have a space that is completely dark.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then you design um the lighting for uh for museums for office spaces for um um supermarkets uh commercial buildings etc from the the beginning as if as if they were a dark space um and this is also what the norms uh are saying right if you if you go to the norms the norms require a certain amount of light and this is what the lighting designer needs to needs to do uh but this the jump to say that and this is what we try to say uh in our daily work is that the artificial lighting is a complement to daylight but what happens many times is that the daylight provision is very very low already in buildings and so this complement becomes the main source of light are the artificial light instead of the daylight.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a yeah so in in the an ideal world you would not have buildings that have uh uh artificial light switched on during the day because the daylight provision is enough for people to you know to do their work to go about their activities uh and have enough good daylight provision for their health but what happens in reality is that it's not enough and we are always um adding to what's not there but adding not let's say a 70-30% adding 70% being daylight and then 30% being artificial light we kind of inverse that uh relationship um and the proportion is mostly that you would have 70% artificial light in a space uh due to lack of daylight provision uh in in general but basically the rooms are too deep too deep to be lit uh with daylight or the the ceiling heights are too small so that the light only reaches uh a few meters from the window or the windows are uh too small uh because of you name it I don't know sunlight protection or the even the even if the orientation of the building is such that it's um it's getting too much sunlight and people inside get glared because they cannot move around and they have only this view to the window that is momentarily uh with a lot of sunlight they close the the blinds.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it you know there's all all these aspects that uh that we kind of try to to to tackle in a project starting with with the daylight provision what is happening with uh with uh with the daylight how is how are my rooms and but and we also go as deep as uh um consulting interior designers on how to position spaces inside a building right because um uh you don't need uh circulation space close to a window roughly or if uh there are um uh working desks close to a window they will most likely need some kind of blind um um glare control right yeah so there is a balance and there is a combination but and I think many people are kind of afraid of all this uh um additional tasks that you have when you design with daylight um but daylight's just let's say another source of light uh and a very strong one yeah it's not just it's it's it's a sort of free source of light as well if you know and I I mean one of the things I we I talked to an architect who I guess she's doing smaller projects but she's sort of understood that actually based on the positioning of a build as well you can kind of look at energy saving and you you know improve light so just by turning the building so it it's sort of more kind of north-south facing or whatever it is yes exactly really have an impact from a kind of energy point of view I mean is that something that you're dealing with as well absolutely yes absolutely so we look into this kind of let's say sunlight uh shadow patterning sunlight penetration our colleagues uh from building physics will look into uh how um how materials and how how materials are developed and also we look at materials from a visual uh perspective um but the building physics uh uh colleagues would look into how much heat uh heat gains uh uh is is coming to to a building what are uh uh you know uh measures that can uh tackle that including vegetation um um and our facades uh engineers would look into ways of protecting or developing facade elements that are shading or uh semi-transparent uh or you know what needs to be blocked and what can be uh transparent or translucent even.
• 29:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:12
  Dave Wallace: I mean are you at the stage where you're thinking about uh the types of materials being used I mean I mean I don't know whether you've you've sort of listened to any of the research around infrared and how important that is from a kind of metabolism point of view but y you know all the glass we're sort of you know I've got these huge glass windows in front of me which you can't see but they're just blocking out all the good stuff so I've opened my door because I know that that means that even on a November day I'm getting infrared coming through which is good for me.
• 29:47
  Dave Wallace: Is that something that you you kind of take into consideration at the moment?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes we do take into consideration and we do analyze the qualities of the glass uh that uh we are specifying together with our uh facade engineers uh but I have to say that it's we we need to see our lives in more of a detached way from buildings where we live because uh I have the impression that we are yes exactly we just need to go outside um and you know while in the interior spaces we have controlled everything controlled temperature controlled protection we have no rain falling in and uh controlled daylight even uh we need to be more exposed to the outside and all the the the the the good stuff that you're saying you know the infrared even the ultraviolet uh we need we need to be exposed to these two of course it depends on on the dosage right so how much of of di of of this uh of this light am I exposed to and how much is it good and how much is uh then becomes uh uh a hazardous uh uh thing so it and and there is there is uh I was just listening to a different podcast this morning and uh they were saying that in order to be in track with the daylight cycle so our you know our um our clock synchronized to daylight and for us to be alert and everything we need to get this uh few hours of exposure in the morning during midday so that that we are uh healthy and in sync in synchrony in in in yeah in sync with the uh our circadian rhythm exactly with our syncadian rhythm exactly so this means that uh it we can build the most beautiful buildings and have loads of daylight in these buildings but it's still not the same as being outside and even you know in buildings we can provide terraces and terraces are good for people to just be outside for a little while um I I I agree I mean I think if like again let's go back to Dabar because you know everyone's well it's a practical thing like if the it's 50 degrees outside it's almost impossible to spend any time out but I think you know my challenge would be to the architectural community to say well actually how what can you do?
• 32:39
  Dave Wallace: You know what can you learn from the vernacular design of the past that means that you could build spaces outside you know so people could benefit from being outside or you know it I it sort of feels like you you can look at it two ways.
• 32:55
  Dave Wallace: One is it it it's a sort of challenge but the other I think this is a massive opportunity for innovation in architecture like how do we it like take the practicalities of city living and say well you know the Victorians understood it like in less so London is just full of green spaces because the Victorians understood the importance of and the town planners understood the importance of green spaces so how do you kind of replicate that for this modern age I think is it is kind of super critical isn't it?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: It is super critical and I think that we as designers as you know building designers architects uh people involved involved in this uh building industry we we need to have more respect uh with the local culture so the local weather conditions is one thing that we need to take care of of course but also the local culture and and analyzing vernacular architecture in different parts of the world uh means to understand how the these communities um have developed their relationship to the natural environment including light right so in this part of the world where the the sunlight is really really harsh people have managed um to develop ways of filtering this daylight of uh of uh using the heat to cool the buildings um and using water also to to to you know to use water to to cool the buildings too so the the very little amount of water that they have and it is it's very important to understand and um what I what I what I think is that there we need an a different approach we need we need perhaps uh an under a deep understanding of this um cultural development uh in order to shape buildings that are that are in line with how we live today and I also think understanding the culture means that we know then um um that people would not go out in the midday they would just go out uh at night and maybe the nightlife uh or the you know the the the life that these people do outside is more is shifted to an evening time than what it would be in uh areas where where c closer to equator or where where the day is not that harsh the sunlight is not that harsh.
• 35:42
  Dave Wallace: So I I think it and you know I can kind of imagine a new new new ideas you know like you might have sun gyms or something where you kind of you get up and before it's light and you kind of go and exercise and it as the sun rises, you know absolutely yes absolutely you know again there's there's so many opportunities around all of this.
• 36:06
  Dave Wallace: We're sort of uh running out of time but I did want to talk about darkness.
• 36:12
  Dave Wallace: So it's interesting you you mentioned about circadian rhythms.
• 36:16
  Dave Wallace: Um cities are terrible uh for us from a kind of circadian point of view because there's never any you know like there wasn't a s New York's very dark in the day but very light at night it's kind of ironic really it's uh you know so the fact we have all these energy saving lights and whatever means that you kind of got billboards everywhere and artificial light I mean so you know I I live in a place where it can I can actually be in darkness and I know that that that really impacts me like it it's such a positive thing for my mental health I get very anxious being in cities after a while because I like I just need darkness.
• 37:06
  Dave Wallace: So I I just wondered if you've kind of got a perspective on that because again cities they don't plan for darkness at all they're planning for kind of maximum light it seems but they're that may be impacting us all sort of physiologically and psychologically and impacting the animal kingdom as well.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely yes I think uh with you know with the advent of the electric lighting and and the possibility of bringing electric lighting everywhere we that and this is what we did because we are uh intrinsically afraid of the dark because we can't see and we you know this is an in um an inborn kind of uh fear that we have if we don't see uh because our senses are shaped in a way that we need uh we are more active during the daylight because we also feel safer and at night we would just go uh to our homes to our caves and be protected and wait until the day uh comes uh back again um so we transformed our uh built environment into a a space where we see everything um regardless of what we were doing to ourselves or uh of what we were doing to nature and today we know that all this light that we have at night uh is an issue not only that we are losing uh the the natural sky which is really uh a big big loss uh but also because we are uh shifting our circadian rhythm uh not only shifting we are we are we are messing it up if you want uh with the times that we have exposure to artificial lighting the amount of light the the the spectrum uh you know the blue light in the evening uh you know it's said to be uh harm harmful for for a sleep cycle etc so this is um all part of a new relatively new science that we need to to take to take care of and we see that the animals react to that so insects uh are we we see the the loss of many uh insects uh species we see uh that trees even are uh disturbed by by light uh by artificial light in cities when when the days get darker earlier and the trees have this leap cycle during um uh autumn and winter and it's a natural cycle that we don't respect.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think with all of this knowledge that is coming out now relative recent uh we can do something and I think you know people are people in the lighting community are getting very sensitive to this and it's very interesting once I went to a a conference and the moderator was saying like we the lighting uh community is the only la is the only community that he's seen um who's um saying that what they do is bad so it's an interesting it's an interesting uh perspective because uh we are I think becoming very aware of our actions uh in the world not only in terms of energy use you know every light uses energy uh but also in terms of what how how do we need the light how to shape the light and when so the technology is kind of there for us to use it in a very very clever way we don't only have the let's say the naked lamp uh anymore we have uh lighting systems that we can use to our benefit and without harming nature so I think there will be a very soon a a change in the perspective of how cities see their streets and parks and um a public realm lit.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um how lighting designers are are doing that and if you need a billboard there will be uh a time um slot for this billboard to be on uh and in the evening at night when everyone needs to rest then we need to rest.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And even you know nocturnal animals uh get um uh disturbed by by the light that we put out there also it's a really really interesting because I guess you know to your point we could see in the future like progressive cities like I'm imagining probably somewhere in Scandinavia to be honest with you they tend to be the most progressive where it's sort of can the last one up turn off all the lights please where city lighting you know because I think as people begin to realize that what we where what's going on and how we're living and all of this stuff is having a detrimental impact on our physiology and psychology to the point you know where it could have a very detrimental impact on kind of nation states I think people will really begin to understand it.
• 42:43
  Dave Wallace: I mean I just a crazy thought I've had which is um just now is I'd love to go back to like 150 years and ask people if they suffer from sad.
• 42:57
  Dave Wallace: So I suffer from seasonal affective disorder very badly.
• 43:00
  Dave Wallace: Now what suddenly I'm thinking well actually is it because of the darkness or is it because my body's not quite sure what's going on like is sad caused by the artificial light environment where you know if it was dark and I was in front of a fire and you know had candles on I I I know that I would be a lot happier.
• 43:23
  Dave Wallace: I know because I've changed all my light bulbs and put candles in and I've got a real fire and so far I'm feeling a lot more positive about winter.
• 43:30
  Dave Wallace: I I am getting outside a lot this is very good.
• 43:34
  Dave Wallace: Yeah yeah so you kind of wonder if sad is actually because of lighting but you know because lighting's in it impacting with the the natural rhythm rhythm of things.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I it's it's interesting isn't it it is interesting I I think if we were able to take the time uh machine and go 150 years back I think we would see a a different situation but I think for sure in lighting uh and also in health a different aspect on the health um uh let's say the life expectancy of people uh were way lower than we are have uh today but not with the same kind of diseases um that we have so I think light is related to this I think there's a lot of sanitation aspects of course um but there is also you know in the past we were more exposed to natural light than we are today as as a species if you want because we are living our our our lives inside buildings no no matter what kind of buildings we leave our houses we uh we travel in in cars or trains we use public transport and then very quickly you shift from the public transport to a different building either your it's a it's a school or your office space or so the amount of uh the time that we are exposed that we have the possibility to be exposed to a larger amount of light in daylight is very very tiny in comparison to the time we spent in the in in buildings during the day.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in winter the possibility of having this exposure is even less because we're still living a let's say an eight hour shift day uh and in this eight hour day shift uh we miss all of the all of the daylight exposure so I think I think people were more in sync with daylight in the past than we are today.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's for sure.
• 46:02
  Dave Wallace: But and and I just think we need to find a way of shaping our work um that shifts or our work how the way we work basically in a different way to to cater for these very very uh uh important need for daylight exposure amazing amazing well listen thank you so much i it's been really fascinating because I think taking a kind of more holistic almost citywide view of the whole thing is is is something that we've kind of not done before um I had one final question actually and this is more of a shadow map question you mentioned like you you moved from Brazil to to Germany and it you you know you realize there wasn't so much sunshine in in Berlin yeah I mean you kind of live that and I kind of get that I lived in the tropics when I was young and moved to the UK and it's still haunts me that um it one of our biggest user groups in Shadow Map is actually Brazil.
• 47:06
  Dave Wallace: So um what why do you think Brazilians are sort of fascinated by kind of shadows and light just out of interest?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um I so going back to our vernacular architecture right Brazil has a very rich uh um hi history recent history in architecture and we have had very uh wonderful architects who were designing uh with uh with the natural environment that we have in Brazil and shading is a big aspect of uh architecture of providing so we have the verandas you know that are uh a a kind of a s uh an interstitial space between the inside of a house and the complete outside you have that and this is basic providing shading yes but it's also it has also to do with the with the rainfall that we have there um we have lots of water and we need this water to run kind of uh fast away from from the buildings so how do you how do you you know protect the building from from sunlight from heat and at the same time cater for this uh water uh rain protection rain flowing out of uh out of the roofs um and and in general I think what I experience a lot in Brazil is that the architecture doesn't happen alone we always have vegetation around always and whether you have a landscape architect uh helping shape uh the landscape around or uh or you just have so many I don't know vases with plants people like it and it's part of it's part of the culture and it's part of you know we even have um plants to protect our souls and you know we have this very interesting relationship with uh with this natural environment and it's I think um the shading from the built environment is one thing but the shading from the vegetation is also quite important.
• 49:22
  Dave Wallace: I mean that is fascinating because we do actually have trees in Shadow Map so it's sort of like yeah I can see that excellent that it's it's something which I it's puzzled me.
• 49:32
  Dave Wallace: It's like why why Brazilians are using Shadow Map because you know I I my assumption was it would be people in the sort of northern hemisphere who would use it because it kind of really does as the season changes sort of model out what happens from a shade and sunlight perspective.
• 49:49
  Dave Wallace: So that that's that's interesting to understand.
• 49:51
  Dave Wallace: Thank you.
• 49:52
  Dave Wallace: Well listen it's been a really brilliant conversation I really appreciate your time.
• 49:56
  Dave Wallace: Thanks a lot Dave thanks for the invite and I'm actually looking forward to our uh our podcast series we have a podcast uh in Germany uh covering Germany Austria and Switzerland and the next series will be about darkness so I hope to learn a lot more about this maybe we can have a uh a different conversation or a more in-depth conversation on the topic I would love that I would love that because I think you know the darkness is so super critical as well and again it's been left behind in terms of in terms of much of the thinking so you know it's only now as people kind of really understand more about the circadian importance of circadian rhythm so you know I I look forward to hearing the podcast as well and listening to the podcast.
• 50:47
  Dave Wallace: Excellent thanks a lot Dave fantastic thanks for listening to Sunlight Matters brought to you by Shadowman where we explore how sunlight influences the way we build design and live each day.
• 51:01
  Dave Wallace: If you like what you heard today be sure to subscribe follow and leave a review on your preferred streaming platform.
• 51:08
  Dave Wallace: You can also search Sunlight matters on Google to find all our episodes, guest information and resources about sunlight analysis.
• 51:17
  Dave Wallace: Solar exposure is the best home orientation for natural light.
• 51:21
  Dave Wallace: You can also head over to shadowmap.org where you can download our iOS app for free today to visualize how sun is currently impacting your life we appreciate you being part of the conversation and we'll see you next time where you can keep exploring the world through the lens of light