Latest / The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine / Tyson Motsenbocker

Transcript

Tyson Motsenbocker · The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine

• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Archback between the rains to the blades and the tall
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: grassberries and I'm still surprised wherever you go. Beat like
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the dust from a breezeway man a way.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: For today, We've got Tyson Mattzenbacher with us for the
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: second time on this podcast. It's been a few years
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I think since the last time we chatted. I think
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: it was with that last album, and here you are
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: now got a new album out, super excited to chat
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: about it. I was listening to it today. Huge fan.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I will say, Tyson, I don't say and I don't
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: say this lightly because I don't say this to a
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: lot of people. You are criminally underrated. Like you really
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: truly are criminally underrated. There are there were so many
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: times where I listened to your music, not just this
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: this current album, but especially because of this current album,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: but even some of your older music. I listened to
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: it sometimes and I'm like, how is this guy not
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: one of the biggest singer songwriters in the world, Like
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: how are you not at like Soufion Stevens level, How
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: are you not at like boniy Vere level?
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Like it doesn't make sense.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: To me because you were so freaking talented, but and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I don't know if you take
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: that as a compliment or if you feel like that's
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: more of a dig. Like, I don't know how you
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: feel about that, but I will just say I think
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: you're criminally underrated, and I think it's a compliment. But
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: you can take it however you want.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: No, I deeply appreciate that. That's very kind. Thank you.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: This this record is is a lot of fun in
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: a completely different way than some of your other records.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: I would say, would you agree with that? Yeh?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I think actually maybe this record was the least fun
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: for me because I did it well, because I did
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: it one hundred percent myself. Yeah, so it was it
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: was fun. But also by the end of it, it
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: was and it's like, however many songs, fourteen songs or whatever,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: and it was like pretty much all just me in
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: here all day long, like toiling over it. But I
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: think after I was done and I zoomed out, especially
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: like some of the spoken words stuff and the like
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the you know, just the kind of internet stuff was
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: was a lot of fun.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, when you work so hard on something, I
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: don't know how you feel like it compares to other
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: albums that you've done. But when you work so hard
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: on an album, especially something like this, where you're like
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: clearly you're doing it all entirely by yourself, do you
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: feel like it's one of those things where you have
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: to like it has to hit the audience or it
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: feels like it was just not worthwhile or is there
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: something truly like for you in the artistic creative process
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: where you're like, regardless of how hard I work at this,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: because I'm working so hard at it, it like is
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: intrinsically rewarding or does it feel like for you still
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: where it's like, Okay, if I'm going to work this
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: hard at something, it's got a hit, Like in some way.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. I mean, like I feel like
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: you never you just I mean, you guys know this too,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: but like you never know what is gonna do well,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: like you just you really don't like I mean, you know,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you know, you like pick singles and stuff like maybe
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: they'll like this one or maybe this one like and I,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: and there are some things that you do kind of
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: like you know, people look tend to like love songs
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: and they like stuff like that like that people tend
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: to gravitate in mass more to things that are like
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: heartier than things that are headier, you know, stuff like that.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: But I mean I had this moment like on the
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: last record that I made, which which is called Milk Teeth,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and it was like it was it was kind of
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: a departure from what I was used usually doing. It
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: was a little bit more. It was like a little
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: bit more rock and roll and stuff like that, right,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and there was I had this moment where I was
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: like because the whole time, I was like kind of
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: like this is my this is like my big this
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: will be my big takeoff record type thing, because up
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: until that point, like everything that I had done was
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: kind of like it would you know double or triple
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the one before it, and you know, listeners and stuff
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: like that. And I remember we like we finished the record.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: We were up in like LA and I was standing
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: out on the porch and I was like, I was
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: just so proud of it, and I mean it with
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: some people that I really love, and I was like,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: oh man, this is like this is this thing's going
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: to do so good. And I was out on the porch,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: I was like, if it never does anything like this
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: has to be the moment, like this has to be
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: the whole reward is that I'm just sitting here and
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: I just finished it, and I think it's great. And
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: ironically that record like at least numerically did very poorly,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Like it didn't really yeah, it just like it did
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: a lot worse than everything else that I've ever done,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: which which was and so going into this one, it
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: was like this interesting thing of being like, man, I
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: thought that was going to be kind of the thing
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: that was like the going to be the big commercial
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: success in it, and it wasn't. And that's fine. Like
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: I think like if you make enough things, you know,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: you just somethings too well, something's to us well. And
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: so from going to this one, I was just like, man,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I just I kind of just don't care. I Like
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: on this one, I was just like I don't really
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: care what it does later. It's just like the goal
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: for this record was to make the most me thing
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: I could make. I think like part of getting a
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: little bit older too, is that you just realized that, like,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: at least for me, like like I just never like
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: super specialized in anything, you know, I'm not like I'm
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: not a surgeon. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not like
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: a really great guitar player. The only thing that I've
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: really been working at for the past ten years is
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to be the most it
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: is trying how to be figure out how to be me.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: And so I was like, that's if anything, if I'm
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: an expert at anything, it's being me. It's like writing
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: these songs the way that I write them, into sing
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: the way that I sing, to play guitar like I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: play guitar. And so this record was way more about
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: like it was like if other records that I've had
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: have been about kind of posturing, not not really like
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I've always done this, but to a certain degree of
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: trying to like play a game, which is like if
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: I make this and I do this tour and then
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: I go over here and do this social media thing,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: then that'll build this world that I can just kind
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: of live in for the rest of my life. And
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: kind of having the bottom of that fall out on
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: the last record where I very much didn't have something
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: to stand on like I had had before, and like
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: maybe I had hoped that I would later, it was
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: way more just like, well then I guess the answer
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: is just to make the most me thing that I can,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: which meant like really trusting my gut, really leaning into
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: the way that I write, especially lyrically, and then doing
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: some of the like you know, doing the spoken words
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: stuff and they really visual like soundtracked things and kind
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: of dancing around these themes of the way that I
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: do think. So, yeah, I don't know. I think that
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: like this record, when I made it, I was like,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: who cares, I don't Like, I'm just going to completely
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: retreat within myself, which in some ways was a pretty painful,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: difficult process, and then also allow it to be exactly
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: what it is without any concept of like what might
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: happen to it out in the world.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: Can you take us a little bit more into like
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: what you mean by like retreat within yourself?
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like one of the things that I
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: do when I write songs that I think, Like what
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I've learned is that I like, even even when I
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: try to write songs with other people, I'm not very
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: good at it. And I couldn't really figure out why,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: and I realized it's because when I'm writing songs, I'm
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: I'm living like in my I'm I'm I'm I'm living
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: like within my own imaginations so vividly that it's difficult
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: because no one else is in there with me. It's
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: just like I can't I can't invite anyone else into
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: this place that I'm in, especially when it's doing, Like
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: when it's working. It's like a very visual, vivid imagination
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: that I'm living in, and it becomes really simple, like
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: because like I'm trying to give a good example, but
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: like every song on the record, I can tell you
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: like visibly and physically where they take place. And I
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: would kind of just like like, for instance, the first
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: song on the record, or the first thing that we
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: weally is called Minor Love, and it's about this person
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: that's not getting what they want. And I just was
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: like sitting here one day in this little studio, and
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: I was like thinking about when I was in second grade,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: I used to walk home from school and there was
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: this cemetery where like I grew up in the wheat
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: fields in eastern Washington, and there was a cemetery that
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: like someone had built and like a really long time ago,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: in eighteen hundreds, and that all the sand from the
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: wheatfields had just like totally erased all the names on
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: these headstones, and I was thinking about I just had
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: this visual feeling of like these headstones that had been
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: like totally erased there, just like had been erased by
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: the sand, and thinking like, oh man, this is so
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: much of what all of us are trying to do
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: is to like leave our mark on the world. At
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's talk going to be
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: erased anyway, so so it really doesn't matter. So and
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: then and then kind of like adding that to this
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: feeling of being a lonely young person and like kind
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: of the balance between greatness and like personal fulfillment or
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: relationships and things like that. And so that was for me,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: was was was doing, was retreating into that world like
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: more and more and more and more and more, and
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: even doing things where I was like obsessing over I
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: was obsessing over details that like are just like our
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: mutual friend Dan Coke is a great example. We were
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: just talking about him before we started recording, but Dan
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: is very, very good. A lot of the commercial music
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: that I've done that's been successful has been with Dan,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: and it's because Dan can look at something and he
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: can know what he wants it to do later and
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: he only follows the road that will lead him to
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: that destination. He does that in all of his work,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: and for me, it's like the more that I do that,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the more lost I get. It's like I can't actually
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: do that, so like I'm thinking, like there's an example
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: on I have one song on this record that like
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I literally found a VHS player and a bunch of
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: old cassettes like VHS tapes, and like it was a
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: TV VHS combo, and I built this loop out of
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: these VHS sounds, like the like the way the tape
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: sounds and you put it in and the way that
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: it pops when it turns on. That was like the
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: kick drum, and then the static was the snare drums
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: and the high ass off and then I ran that
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: all of that into this other tape machine and made
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: a loop out of it. And that took me like
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: four days to like do this thing that in the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: mix is like almost lost, Like you can't unless I
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: show Like unless I show you it, it's like you
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: would never know that it was even really there, and
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: it was. But for me, it was the process of
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: being like this is a waste of time, Like I
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: know what I'm doing is a waste of time. But
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: in order for me to live vividly in the place
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: that this song is, I have to do these things
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: like I have to I have to do these things
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: that are not very efficient and they're not leading me
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: to it being a commercial success or whatever, like or
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: like if I was trying to reverse engineer it or whatever.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I just had to do it because that was like,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: the thing that was that felt alive to me in
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: that moment was this thing, and I had to follow
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that no matter or what it was, you know.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: I think what that is, though, what that leads to
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: in the in the songs is such a genuine and
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: authentic feeling that I've not heard this in a record recently.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, it feels like you're in the room with me,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: and it has so much I don't know how else
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: to explain. It feels very tangible, like the whole record does,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: every single tune, And I almost kind of wonder if
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe like that loop, for example, the elements
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: that you're placing in here really do shine through, even
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: though they might be subconscious or maybe you know, resting
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: in the background a little bit. It definitely adds an
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: atmosphere that is extremely unique to this record.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: That's like, that's like the coolest thing you could say.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, I think that's that's like even
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: going back to what I was saying about being like
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: an expert, that I'm not really an expert on very
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: many things. And a lot of this is like I
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: think in an era of efficiency, like you know, kind
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: of us chasing these efficient avenues to the to the
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: greater end goal or whatever. I just I wanted this
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: album to feel like I was like I was kind
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: of like like really struggling on certain things. Like there's
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: like I played I have a whole cello arrangement that
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: I play at the end of the very last song.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: That's like I can't play the cello at all, like
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I have one. But it was like these things that
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: are very tactile, very difficult to use, like like I
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: have this tape machine that's stits in over here that's
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: like an old tape machine, and it's like it's hard
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: to use, and I would I didn't really know how
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: to use it. I would just like run stuff into it.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: It was basically me trying to or like I have
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: all these analog synthesizers on this record, and I can barely.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I can play the keys in like four, I can
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: play like G, D, E and C, and that's that's
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: like on the keys. But like so I would have
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: to figure out how to use various speed to slow
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: things down and change pitch or like things that I
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: don't really know how to do, and I'm the only
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: one in here, so like no one is going to
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: come show me how to do it better or whatever.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: It's just gonna have to be me, So it is.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I think this record is a lot of me, of
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: me struggling with things that I don't know how to do,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: with machines that are very tactile and real that are
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: kind of unforgiving and inefficient, and that I think when
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: it's working, it leads to this place of like it
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: feeling very tactile and very out of time. It feels
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: like it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like unmodern, like
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: it doesn't feel old, but it also definitely doesn't feel
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: like it's something that was made in twenty twenty five either. Yeah,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: it feels like it's kind of outside of that in
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: a way. So yeah, I really appreciate you saying that.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: That's like probably the coolest thing that you say.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: So, you know, you were talking about this like story
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: of like recording in a way where you're like, it's
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: obviously very intentional, but you just sort of know that
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: this is inefficient and it's actually not going to be
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: from from like a listener standpoint.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: You know that this is not going to be something
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: that's going to be all that noticed.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: And I wonder, like, for you, especially as a singer songwriter,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: like how do you balance that with obviously wanting to
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: be very genuine and very authentic to the music that
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: you're creating and balance that with Okay, I also like
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: need some sort of pop sensibility, because like I am
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: trying to write this for a number of people, Like like,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: clearly this is not like avant garde where it's just
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: like you're creating like some really weird, interesting thing that
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: might actually be truly authentic, but like nobody's ever going
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: to actually care about it. Like there must be some
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: level of like wanting some people to care about it.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: And I guess like when I'm like asking this question,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like thinking of it through the context of like
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I know, last time we chatted, like you're good friends
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: with John Foreman, and he like he's kind of tapped
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: in this really interesting kind of balance of that, it
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: seems like where he's able to write music that clearly
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: seems to be authentic to who he is, and he
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: just has this talent or this capacity to write not
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: just authentic songs, but songs that, like he knows that
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: clearly are gonna be catchy or at the very least
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: could end up could.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: End up being catchy.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And you know, clearly like switch Foot has gotten lucky
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: in some ways, and you know, they've gotten big and
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: you know in certain circles, and yeah, I'm just curious,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: like how do you balance that as an artist? Like
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: how do you try to like create things that are
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: gonna be authentic, but also balancing that in a way
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: where you know, at the end of the day, you're
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: trying to create music for other people, not just yourself.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: This is so good. John is a very unique creature
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: in so many ways. But actually we both have a
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: mutual friend who passed away from brain cancer last year,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: and he was a guy that wrote. He was in
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: that band of oc super Tones, if you remember them,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and he was in a bunch of other bands.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: He was in a bunch of kind of like that
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: world of Christian ska. And then he wrote some like
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Jonas Brothers songs and some Miley Cyrus he wrote like
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: that little guitar part at the Beginning party in the USA.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: No way really yeah, that's why. And he's a dear
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: friend of mine and he uh. I remember like when
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I was first started playing music. He he like kind
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: of took me aside and he was like he's a
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: pop guy, like really good at pop music, and I
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: was like Northwest, like yeah, like Soufian Stevens was like
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: a little too poppy, like growing up, you know. And
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: he took me aside and he was like he's like, man,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: you're building. He's like, you're building these rooms and they're beautiful.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: They're like so ornate. And he's like he's like, it's
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: they're so ornate and they're so beautiful and there's thought
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: out and and he's like he's like, but they're fucking
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: impossible to access? Is that? Can I swear? I could
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: swear on this course, That's what he said to me.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: He's like, he's like, you gotta build some doors and
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: you got to build some windows. He's like, or else
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: you have this beauty of this box that no one
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: can access. And he uh, I don't know. He was
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: very formative to me in that, which is this thing
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of being like to make music that is unaccessible on
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: purpose is actually just like kind of insane. It's like
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: kind of like I mean, kind of being narcissistic or
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: at least Aaron at the least.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the idea that like like that people should
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, especially in this day and age, it's actually
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: easier to do to do it because there's so much
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: stuff in the world that it is so that like
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: in the we have an attention economy and all this,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: and like if you don't have some sort of a hook,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: like people just want it'll just go down the river.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Whereas like when I was growing up, I think there
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: was a certain amount of like if it was inaccessible,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: you had to kind of try, and that made you
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: smarter something. But now people just don't care. It's like
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: if I don't get it, I don't get it, I'm
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: gonna let it. There's a five hundred thousand more things
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: come down the pike and her right now. So yeah,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: like I think like like in like creating places that
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that are accessible to people, that people can trying to
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: invite them into it because you know, at the end
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: of the day, like making artists supposed to it's if
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: when it's done right, it's supposed to give people context
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: for their own lives, like it's supposed to allow it's
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: supposed to give people, you know, context, Like that's really
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: what I think it is. It's like, oh my gosh,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: like this this thing is this song. I mean, you know,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: like people come up to me and they don't at
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: shows and they don't say, oh my goodness, your guitar
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: tone on this thing is so cool. I mean sometimes
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: they do, but then if they do, they don't actually care.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: They're like that's impressive or whatever. But and if they
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: use it that it's because they're trying to have cool
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: guitar tone on their records. It's way more. It's way
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: more about people coming out to me and being like,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: you know, my wife and I we were on a
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: road trip through Nebraska and we were listening to this
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: song and it became our thing, and now we listen
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to it, you know, every Sunday night when we make dinner,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and it's like part of our lives. That's like, actually
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: the coolest thing ever is like, if I can make
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: something that goes into the world, then that's way cooler
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: to me than like having some genius thing that no
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: one cares about. It's like, right, so so, and also
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: at the same time, uh, something that I know about
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: myself and maybe this is like maybe this is self
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy or whatever, but like I just know that
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not for everybody like I'm I'm, I'm a very
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: specific thing. It's like I That's another funny example about
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: like the room's analogy is like when you're in these
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: in this in this room that you're building, it's like
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: I remember like thinking about the same It's like I'm
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: looking at this one little window into the world, and
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: out of my little window, everyone likes the same stuff.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: They all know who David Bizon is, and they all
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: have read, you know, the Word of the Rings, and
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: they all think that, uh, Severance is a great TV show.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: It's like we all like the same stuff. We all
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: think that these kinds of pants are good and these
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: kinds of these kind of pants are bad. Like it's
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: like everyone I know that we're all looking out of
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: the same window. And then you look to your left
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: and there's there's a half a million people at a
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Pitbull concert and you're just like, oh, yeah, I just
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I am operating in a very small piece of the world.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: You're like, me and the people that I know like
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: something that in the broad scheme of the world, almost
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: no one else likes. Like, we're in this very small
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and you're probably even like, who are this half million
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: people that are at this pit Bull show? Because you
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: don't know any of those people, and you're like, who
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the fuck shows up to this exactly? Or like you know,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: you go to the airport and you're like, oh, people
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: wear those shoes? Who would wear these shoes? Everyone? Apparently
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: they all are wearing the same shoes. It's like, oh,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: they're like there's a lot of people that like a
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: lot of things that I don't like. So it's like
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: that thing of leaning into being who I am is
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: also like with the knowledge of sacrificing that most people
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: won't like it, Like if I do it really well,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: most people won't like it. But if I do, but
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: if I do it even better than really well, the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: people that could like it will love it. And yeah,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: and that like I guess like that that's sort of
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: always in the back of my mind is that like
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I need it to be accessible to the people who
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: could love it, and I need it to be unaccessible
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: to everyone else, because otherwise it won't be very good.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: It's just like, that's just the nature of what I do.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm reminded of a I don't remember which
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: comedian this was that said this, but they had sold
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: out Madison Square Garden three nights in a row. They're
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: absolutely killing it. And I guess here's like this old
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: joke that he basically recycled, and he said something along
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: the lines of like, look at this, Look how many
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: people are here. This is amazing, This is this is incredible,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: isn't it. He's like the eternal pessimist in me can
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: only think about all the people who walked right on
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: by outside right totally, you touch so many people, but
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: there's there's endlessly more people that are are not paying
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: attention or are not interested or like, like you're saying, like,
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: you're operating such a very small part of the world,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: and it doesn't matter how big you are, you're still
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: only going to operate a very small part of the world.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Well, that's such an interesting insight because I think about
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: that at some of the shows that you and I
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: you know call them that we go to where it's like,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you know, even like we would go to Furnace Fest,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: like you know, there's gonna be ten thousand people there
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: or whatever it is, right, and I still think to myself,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: who are the people that just like are totally unaware
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: which clearly is happening in Birbunion, Like there there are hundreds,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: if not thousands of people that are totally unaware that
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: this festival is even going on. And in our little
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: niche world that for those ten thousand people, this is
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: maybe the most important weekend of our lives. And there
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: are so many other people that have no idea any
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: of this is going on, and yet for our little
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: world it's the most important thing. That to me is
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: like a fascinating dynamic that happens in our world.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: It's very very interesting. I mean, there's that is that
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: it's it's I think like success is something in fact,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: like when you brought John up. John is someone that
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I talked about this without a like at large, like
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: at length, which is the idea of success because like
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I remember very vividly I called John for I was
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: in New York one time and I called him and
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I was like, what, like what makes you successful? You know,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: it's like, what's the metric? And he was basically like,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: that's that is the thing that you have to define
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: like for yourself, and you have to figure that out
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: soon because if you don't find it, nothing will matter,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: like nothing will hit that or whatever. And even like
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: there's that great quote from David Foster Wallace where you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: he wrote Infinite just and it was like a gigantic
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: commercial success, but he and you know, everyone was saying
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: this is the greatest book ever written or whatever, and
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: it was a New York Times number one, and and
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: he had he said that his whole life, he felt
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: like no one liked his books because they were because
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: they were smart books and people were stupid. Basically, he
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: was like, I write smart books and people are too
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: stupid to understand them, so like I'll never be successful.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: And then Infinite just explodes. And he basically said, like
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I had to come to this. I had to ask
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: myself this question, like were my old books bad or
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: is Infinite just bad? And I was right before? Or
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: is it like completely all disconnected? And who even knows
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: like it's it's like that thing of being like you
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: just can't you can't chase. Here's another example, like like
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: my band Telephone Friends that I'm in with John Induson
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: and stuff. We we went to we played it the
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: last week, we played the Nashville soccer game. We played that.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: We were the halftime show at the Nashville soccer game
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: with with Messi, which was cool. Did you see soccer Jesus?
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I did? I did? And I am a big fan
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: of his band. Yeah, he's got an okay band.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: I love his band, dude, it's our It's just all right, yes,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: and you know about this right, yes?
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay. Should we tell people what you're talking about?
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I mean we can.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, So if if you all are listening and you
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: have no idea that there's a famous person at these
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Nashville soccer games, I forget what their Their soccer team
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: is called the Nashville and everything. Yeah, so they have
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: a super fan who comes in every single game as Moses.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: I think they call him soccer Moses or football Moses
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: or whatever his name is. But it's actually and you
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: would know his first name, but but it's the guitarist
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I think is what he does.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the guitarist for Charts of Clay. Yeah, yeah,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: which is another one of my first concerts. I actually
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: think I think Jars of Clay is such a cool band.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Oh they stand up so well huge time. Yeah. So
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: what I was I always thought of like jarsa Clay.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Like when I look back now, I'm like, they were
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: the like CCM version of the National Dude.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: They're so good, so good all the way. Yeah. So
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: when we were playing that game, you know, there were
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: like thirty they were like thirty some there was like
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: forty thousand people there or something like that, and I
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: was looking out and I was like, also, like after
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: my last record, I got dropped off every Spotify playlist,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Like they dropped me off with everything. I think partly
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: because I was I don't know if that was on
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: purpose or not, but I started talking crab about Spotify
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, I got dropped off
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: of all the playlists. So anyway, so I was my
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: month listeners went down from more to around forty forty
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: ish thousand monthly listeners. And I was sitting there looking
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: at the and like that's embarrassing, Like it's in the
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: world that I'm living in. It's like if you're you know,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: there's people that have one song that just gets on
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: a TikTok thing, now they've got six million monthly listeners
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: or whatever. I've been doing this for ten years, so
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: this is like I have a low amount of listeners
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: for like, if you were to ask people that are
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: doing this professionally at the level that I'm trying to
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: do this out, it's like a low number. And so
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: I was sitting there, I was looking at the soccer
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: stadium and I was like, this many people listen to
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: my songs every single month, Like that is That's crazy,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: That's that's insane. And I sit here and I'm like depressed,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: and I like don't want to tell people my Spotify
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: numbers because they're like low or whatever, because they're all
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: artificially inflated by this algorithmic system that we have that
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: like actually puts no emphasis on value or like why
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: people are listening to music or any of this stuff.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: It's just like it's a giant, massive numbers that you're
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: trying to make go up however you can. It doesn't
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: matter what those numbers mean. You just wanted to go up,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: and I think I being like, if you like my
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: high school self, or my even my call self, or
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: even the self of me that started doing this ten
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: years ago, I'm hitting the success metrics at every mark.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Like I have a whole soccer stadium of people that
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: listen to me every month without any Spotify playlists, and
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I you know, I can still tour, and I can
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: still you know, I have friends that and people generally like,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: you know, they like what I make, and people that
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: email me and tell me they're walking down the isle
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: at their wedding to my song or whatever. But it is,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: it's just a very strange time in the world when
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: it comes to this idea of success, especially in the
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: arts or in podcasting or in you know, any of
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: this stuff. It's just like it's it's it's like the
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: complete absence of anything localized or real or tangible or
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: low or you know, close. It's all about you. You
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: flush this thing that you pour your hard into down
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: the toilet, into the black abyss of the internet, and
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: then you just want these numbers to go up that
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: are completely disconnected from people. And it's just like it's strange.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: It's a strange time, and I think that like really
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: doing a little bit of accounting into like what success
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: means to you is important. That's for me at least, that's.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: Been especially now, right. I mean, I don't think that
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: this system can last forever. I don't think it can
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: even last to the end of the decade, to be honest.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: It's just it's people are going to start craving something
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: different than what the Spotify's of the world are are
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: making people chase, you know, right, It's clear that you've
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: you've really like contemplated and reflected on the idea of success,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: and I think that's a very important thing because just
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: like you were talking about with with modern worries here,
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: like you had to kind of discover what does everything
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: mean for you? What does what does music mean for you?
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: What does putting this out to the world mean for you?
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: And and who are you as an artist? That's I
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: wonder how many people are going on that journey right now.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I think a lot are and a lot of people
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: are are I mean, yeah, Like I like I just
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: listened to this to that podcast The Dan Dude with
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: John Mark McMillan about how John Mark's he's he's like
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: quitting touring forever and he's a guy that I toured
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: with before and I like John Mark very much, and
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: listening to him talk, it was this, it was this
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: and and that's something that's been across the board. Like
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of friends that are like, we're done,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: like this is we're not We're not touring and maybe
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: we're kind of just done, and it's this. I think
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: it's a yeah, it's it's like kind of the carving
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: out of the middle of the middle class a little bit.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, I think that's
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: why this record for me, it was like I had
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: to like that sort of underlying feeling of success is
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: very present for me. It's like because every every record
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I've made ever until now was you know, it was
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: like it was on fire with this this young man's
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: drive to like conquer the world, and it was and
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I think this was the first one that was just like, Okay,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I've been I've done this for ten years and I
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: made a bunch of stuff and I really don't have
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: any control over what happens to it after I make it.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: And in sort of every way, this is the thing
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: that I loved. The mouse is the actual process of
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: making it and having had made it, the the you know,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: the personal journey that I have to go on to
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: get it across the finish line. And I was just
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: a little bit of like, you know what, I I
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: don't even really care what happens to it after this,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: but I wonder what will happen if I if I
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: make it where the discipline is to not think about that.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: The discipline is to make it completely in any way
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: that I can how I want to for me. And
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's why it sounds like it sounds. I mean,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: it's funny like when people like when I'm doing these
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: types of things now, people like, oh, we love it
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: so much, like it's so great, and I'm like, I
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: don't know what I think about it anyway, Like if
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I'm being totally honest with you, I'm like, I have
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: listened to those songs. I mean, some of those songs
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: have had twenty versions of them. It's like, you know,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: like h like Mine Love probably has had four different
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: drum tracks on it that have been pulled in and out,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: so like I don't even really I've completely lost context,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: but I but I made it in a way that
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: felt very close and very real and very divorced from
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: the idea of success, just kind of to seek this
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: thing in its purest form to the very end that
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: I could go. And now it's just like it is
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: very much not mine anymore, like which which has not
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: happened in the past. You know, it's like, yeah, it's gone,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: it's it's out. I did, I like poured everything that
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I had into this from the perspective of just it
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: being just making it as good and as me as
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I could. Yeah, so for better or for worse, it's
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: like it's that's it is what it is.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: So yeah, not to like equivocate at all, because I
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: definitely don't think it's equal in really any shape or form.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: But you know, obviously there is a I think there's
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: a difference between creating music versus creating something like a
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: podcast like this, And at the same time, uh, like
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I often think about, like, yeah, this this could be
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: a way bigger podcast like that there's podcasts out there
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: that maybe do similar kind of thing or whatever where
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: they're interviewing similar kind of artists or whatever, and they're
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: way bigger, And I could look at those and have
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: that sort of jealousy or kind of wonder like why
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: why is this not as big or whatever? And at
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the same time, I just like, I think I've gotten
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: to at least with him myself. I don't I'm not
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: gonna speak for you, Culin, but like, for at least
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: for me, I at the end of the day think, Okay,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: the creation of this podcast means that once a week
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I get to hang out with my best friend, and
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: that in and of itself is worthwhile. And because Colin
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: and I live like four hours away, four and a
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: half hours away from each other, so we don't get
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: to see each other in person very often. So it's
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: just like for me, it's like I get to hang
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: out with my best friend, and this gives an excuse
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: to create something with my best friend where I get
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: to hang out with him once a week and we
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: get to interview really cool people that we think are
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: just really incredible musicians, and so it just it creates
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: that sort of an excuse and then we obviously we
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: pour the effort into like trying to make this the
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: best that can be, uh, And I don't know, like
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: there's something to me intrinsically rewarding about that. And then
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: when we go to like different shows, like you know,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: something like Furnace Fest, and that's when we get to
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: see like people where like even at this last furness Fest,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: there was a like from Canada that like came all
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the way from Canada all the way to Birmingham, Alabama, Alabama,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: and was like, dude, like I listen to your podcast
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and you're the reason why I decided to come to
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: this festival. Like to me, like that's like a cool
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: experience for us to like even though you know, obviously
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: we don't have huge numbers whatever in our downloads and listenership,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: but at the same at the same time, for me,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: like intrinsically, it's like worthwhile. And then you get these
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: like little moments where somebody speaks into why this is
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: important for them, and it's like, well, that's why I
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: do this, Like I do it because I get to
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: hang out with my best friend and because like clearly
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: this matters to some people, which is cool.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well and too, I mean like there is a
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: certain piece of it. I mean that's like that's why
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: we started Telephone Friends, was that, like, yeah, we love
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: these people. We live all over the place and it's
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: really good musicians and it was like it was an
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: excuse to do this thing together. But yeah, I just
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: I think there is this this thing that happens when
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: you get a little when you get a little too slick.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I've seen this with a lot of with a lot
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: of people where they you know, they don't they sort
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: of they get a little bit too. I mean the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: classic like Nashville thing, which is that you like, you
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: start at the end, you like, who who's going to
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: listen to this? And then you create that person and
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: you follow that rope back to the you know, to
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: the very beginning, and to me, it's like it is
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: so I don't know, it's just it it's that question
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: of like what like like I heard this quote one
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: time that said, like what you do every day is
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: what you do. It's like it doesn't matter what your
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: what your job title is or whatever. It's like, it
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: matters what you do. Do you like doing what you do,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: not like what you what it says that you do
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: like actually what you do. And I was thinking about it.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, that was a conversation I've had with
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: a few people, which is that I think I think
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: that you know, I'm like, I'm a pretty smart guy.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: And I think I could, like, if the whole goal,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: well was to make this thing succeed commercially at a
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: certain level or whatever, I think I think I could
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: probably figure out how to do that. I could definitely
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: figure out how to make it more successful than it is.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: And I think there's a chance that I could make
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: it like really successful. But I think in doing that,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: and I know that in doing that, I would lose
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: everything about what I like about it. You know, I
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be I wouldn't be sitting here for three days
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: making tape loops with VHS machines, which is like what
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I like to do. So it's this thing of being like, Okay,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: well then what what's the goal? And in some ways
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I think I'd rather go work at
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: a bank or something and make tape loops with VHS machines.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Then then you know, reverse engineer a thing that that
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: that that is successful, or like go all in on
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: social media or something like this. It's like, there's there's
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: certain things that I could do, and it's like those
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: are all the things that I don't I just don't
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: want that job. So you know, there's all these different
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: questions that we have to answer in our lives like
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: how to make enough money and how to live and
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: how to provide for the people that you care about
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and all this stuff very very important questions. And then
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: there's also the question of like what do you want
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: to do? And Yeah, for me, it's like I've been
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: quite comfortable with this idea that I really like what
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I do and as long as I can kind of
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: figure out how to keep paying for it, I'll keep
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: keep doing it, I think. So yeah, yeah, does that
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: question like ever like cause like identity crisis for you,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Cause like with you bringing that up, like you know,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: what what you do is what you do? M hm.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Like immediately, like my mind goes into like people, there
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: are things that I do that maybe people know me for,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of people might know me for. Yeah,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: like they might say, like, you know, you're a podcast
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: or youtubeer or social media influence or whatever it is, right,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: But like what's interesting is like, yeah, those are some
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: things that I do. But like the things that like
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: in late like in terms of like how I identify
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: or the things that when I think about myself, the
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: things that come to mind way before anything like social
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: media or podcasting is like I like to cook at home,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: so I'm like a home cook. That like comes to
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: mind first, it's I'm a YouTube watcher. Watch I love
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: watching YouTube, a Jersey shore watcher that's in there, a
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: runner three days a week, that's in there now. Like
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: so there's like all these other things that come to
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: mind before, like all these other things that people know
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: me for, and like I'm even like thinking about that
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: with like you right now, right, like we know you
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: for Tyson Mattzenbacher, the singer songwriter, right, and that's why
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: you're on this podcast. But like I would imagine for yourself,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: you think about yourself in a different way, or at
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: least you add like a bunch of other things beyond
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and maybe even in front of singer songwriter. And so
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know like how you think about that in
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: terms of this identity thing, but like that that comes
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: to mind for at least me of like there's so
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: many other things that even though I might be known
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: for certain things, I like know myself that there are
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: other things ahead of that that I know myself for.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: And so I'm curious, like for you, like does that
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: come to does that feel similar? Does it feel different?
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I'm just curious.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually I actually think that that is one
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: of the mistakes that I made early on was or
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: not mistake necessarily, but it was it was a conception
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: that I it was a misconception that I had about
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: the nature of attention, which is that like, I don't
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: think anyone, including me, is very good at like nuanced
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: when it comes to public people. I think that like
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: like when like you you think that, like for example,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: like if the National if all of a sudden, you know,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: the guy from the National is like, also, I'm doing
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: stand up comedy, I'd be like I'd be like, no,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: You're you're the National guy, Like like I know that's
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: your thing. You're you're the National guy, and he's like yeah,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: or I mean like you know, Bryce from the Nationals
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Record is doing production now, but I'm still it's still
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: like similar world or something. But I'm like, I just
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: when I look out at these people that are trying
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: to be two things, it's difficult for me and that
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: and that's what I always sort of thought that I
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: could do, was that like I'm going to get enough
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: people's attention, I'm going to get enough people to not
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: notice me, and then I'm to do all sorts of things.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm gonna do like spoken word stuff,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna write books, I'm gonna create these universes that
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: we can live in and all this. And it was like,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be like like writing about some Christian
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: things and also like in the major market, I'm gonna
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: it's I'm not going to kind of go either way.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be Indian. I'm also going to have
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: a little bit of this commercial thing like Christian dolland Glover. Yeah, yeah, no, no, honestly,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I mean that's a great example. He's one of the
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: only people I know like that somehow, or like PD,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: like the Instagram guy PD. Yeah, he likes he's somehow
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: crossed over. But now, like at first it was like,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: you make funny videos on the internet. Why are you
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: making Earnest Indie rock? Now it doesn't make any sense
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: to me. It was like it was a struggle for
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: me as someone that likes liked him on the internet.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: So it's it's the teacher conundrum, right, yeah, exactly.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: You think about your teacher and you only think about
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: them as like living and breathing and existing in the and.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Then you see him at the grocery store.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're exactly What in the world is this right? Yeah?
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: No, I think, I think and and to go back
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: to there is a certain level of like of I mean,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: it's definitely ego and I I mean, I think about it.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I've talked to this before. But like I mean, dude,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I did, like you know, I've done in my life.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I've done like a handful, like more than five h
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: like big theater bus tours where I was opening acoustic
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: for rock bands at two thousand plus cap theaters and
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes they were like on radio like bands that had
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: you know, big radio singles and stuff. And that is
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: an insane thing to do. Like the idea that like
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go and in front of two thousand people
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: that all I got babysitters and paid one hundred and
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: fifty dollars to be there, and I'm going to do
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: the thing that no one wants anyone to do at
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: a house party.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: That's a great point.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: It's like, what in what world did I think that
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: was a good ide a, good idea and actually like
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: it did work, but it's crazy that it did. It's
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: like it's I think that like now I'm just I'm
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: a little bit older, and I'm like, there the I
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: think that some of that ego is just really apparent
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: to me. That's like, man, I thought I could like
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I thought I was so interesting that I was going
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: to build this world that this guy gets up here
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: to play Wonderwall exactly like anyway, here's wonder Wall, and
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: there was like, no, we came here to see a
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: different like another band that plays rock music and not.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: You time to go get a drink.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. So like, I don't know, I think that
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: there's a there's something a little bit about like recognizing
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: sort of some of the some of like the youth,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: the hubris in my youth of being thinking that I
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: was this interesting and expecting people to really go out
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: of their way to love me.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but you wouldn't be an artist if you didn't
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: have a little bit of, like, especially when you're young,
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: a little bit of like a sense of uh self
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: grandiosity to a certain extent right totally otherwise otherwise you
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: never would have done it in the first place.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And I think that's something that people wouldn't really know
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: about about me, especially people that don't know me personally.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Is like I like, I mean I used to, like
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I used to and there's still some of this in me,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: which is that like I'm an ambitious person, Like like
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: when I'm when I'm about to walk out on stage
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: at like you know, the Rhymen or something thing and
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: no one knows who I am, and I'm like, I'm
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: gonna I Am going to be the best thing tonight,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Like people are going people just don't know that they're
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: about to see something that's really great and and I
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: don't know. I guess it's like kind of moving into
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: this next stage of my life is like I do
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: think that I am a great songwriter. I think that
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: the work that I've made stands up and I think
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: that I do think it's underappreciated, like you said, and
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that, and like I like moving
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: into this next part of my life being like if
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: that isn't something that people recognize in me ever, like
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: at the scale that maybe I wanted them or still
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: want them to, where is you know, not to like
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: go fully youth camp on it, but like where does
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: my identity lie? Who am I am? I still do
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: I still believe these things about myself? Can I still
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: show up and be a good friend and a good
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: son and a good brother and a good husband and
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: one day if a good father. Maybe, like these are
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: things that can I do that if I never got
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: this validation that I think I deserve, that I thought
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I deserve, and I think that that's the sort of
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: like part of this this record that I'm like getting
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: to this place of being like I think that's okay,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Like it's it's okay. There's a chance that that won't happen,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and and maybe maybe it already did happen, like maybe,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: like it just sort of depends on how you look
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: at it. It's just like I don't know, but.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a string played for two thousand people
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: that were just trying to get their beer.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: That's right, dude, I did and a few of them
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: really liked it, that's right. There, they were drunk enough
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: to like it. That's right. I just needed to give
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: them a couple more whiskeys and maybe I you know, m.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Hm, I do want to. I do wanna really though,
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: like keep a lot of praise on modern worries here.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: This this record really is like something that like I
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: maybe buy three to five. I've knew vinyl records the year, Uh,
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: this is one of them. Wow, And that's because it
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: it the first time I heard it, it really did
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: like reach down into me in a completely different way
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: than your previous work. And I loved Milk Teeth and
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: I loved I loved everything you've done so far, but
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: this one really has hit me a in a completely
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: different way. And I think it it really lends itself
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: to vulnerability to the listener because you're clearly being vulnerable.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: You're being you're you're you're painting such a clear picture,
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: and you're you're using language within within the lyrics that
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: is very It's not like it's not overwhelming, it's not bombastic,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: it's not like trying to say too much, but it's
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: saying exactly the right amount. And I don't know why,
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: but the song that I can't stop listening to it.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if was like a joke song
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: or or or not for you, but I don't want
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: to be on the internet anymore. That song, in particular,
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: I've listened to it at least one hundred times. I'm
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: not joking. I even showed it some of a teacher
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: by day. I showed it to my class today and
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: we had a little like five minute discussion at the
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: end of class about our internet cells, our digital cells
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: and and and what life was like before we were
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: constantly connected. And it opened up a brand new discussion
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: that you know, when you're talking about you know, gen
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: Z kids and some some you know, the youngest generation,
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: is it, jenn Alfa, whatever it is. Yeah, it's it's
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: a question that they have not had to wrestle with yet,
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: but they have all felt it, right, they've all felt
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: that same kind of.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what what age she teach neither twelve? Yeah, Okay,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: I mean so I've I teach songwriting to kids in
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: the summers. And this one kid who's now out of college,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: but he's still you know, deep gen Z territory, and
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: I showed him that song and he was he was
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: like really interested in it. And then he said to me,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: he was like, well, why is the Internet like different
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: than the real like than the physical world? And I
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: was like, what do you what are you talking about?
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, and and and also like because we were
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: there when we watched it develop, and it was clearly
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: like you know, we I watched it be a shadow.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: It's like showing you. It's a shadow of the real world.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, uh and and and I was like,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: I was I was trying to figure out how to
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: like argue with him. And I was like, well, it's
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: the Internet, like you could just turn it off. And
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: he was like he was like what, well, he said,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: you could turn me off. And I was like, whoa, whoa.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: That's weird, isn't it.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Whoa? Yeah, And and we we talked at length about it,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: and uh, I think, like, you know, there's that like
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Marsall McLuhan, like the mean, the median is the message
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: or whatever. There's that which I've been thinking about a lot,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: which is that like you know, the way or the messenger,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: like the of the thing you're saying is much more
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: important than the actual thing you're saying. And you know,
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: there's like that there's like this like kind of techno
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: feudalism thing that's happening where like we've kind of reverted
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: to these like five people that are actually in charge
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: of the whole universe. It's you know, it's and they
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: are they because they are dictating the medium. They're the
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: ones that are telling you how you can say what
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: you can say. And I realized, like one of the
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: things that brought to that song on was we've like
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: really reverted as a society, I think to this binary
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: thinking of like it's an honor off thing. It's like
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: am I going left or am I going right? It's like,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a one or it's a zero. Like
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: all computers are just like on off such just to
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: doing this all day long, and it's like that's how
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: we're thinking about it. It's like, oh, so of course,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: if your brain is thinking like a computer, then a
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: tree is the same as like a Spotify algorithm. It's
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: just like it picked brown and then it picked this
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: type of tree, and then it picked this big and
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: this many years old or whatever. It's just like and
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: it's I think it's like a poisonous way to think.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Like I think that we're like spiritual and emotional. And
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: that's why the end of that song is like it
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: just as I'm a piece of a star stuff in
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: an algorithm. You know, computers only thinking ones and zeros.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: There's more numbers two. It's like the thing like if
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: there's if if you if we as a society started
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: thinking everything is a one and a zero, and in reality,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: there are infinite numbers not to mention, there's like three
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: four and five, not to mention eight four and fifty six.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: It's like, there are there are so much more than
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: what a computer can think. And if you, if you
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: subscribe to this idea that we are infinite, spiritual, emotional,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: intelligent beings, It's like it's a place that no computer,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: no matter how smart it is, could ever go. It
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: just couldn't, right, and and it's it's just really interesting
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: to me to see, especially people that grew up with it,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: have a difficult time differentiating between these two things that
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: are so clearly not only different, but that one is
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: like a bastardized shadow version that's actually affecting and ruining
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: the real version. My favorite thing in that song is
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: that all these tech companies versus all these tech companies
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: make solve one small problem and make like a hundred
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: brand new way bigger problems. It's like, okay, so now
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: I can rent somebody's house on Airbnb, but everything is
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: eight times more expensive. It's like, okay, so I would
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: rather just not be able to sleep on I would
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: rather just not be able to wrap this person's house, right,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: I had to pick, like I would just pick not
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: for everything to be eight times more expensive.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: But uh yeah, I've gotten to the point now where
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: I'm like, if it means that I have to like
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: sleep in a hotel for five dollars more but then
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: don't have to do chores at the end of my stay,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: then I'm done with that.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I will stay in a hotel ten times out of
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: ten if I can. I also have to be careful sometimes,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: like it's so funny because the way that I make
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: money is that I make commercial music and I make
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: I score films and stuff. And sometimes I'll be like
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: just talking shit about some company, I'll realize that I
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: totally like scored their last three commercials.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't. I don't want to take it back
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: too much, but I love that idea of binary thinking.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: And you've actually opened up something completely new in my
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: thought process that I haven't thought about before, and that
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: is everything in our lives kind of is binary thinking. Now,
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: if you're talking politics or your belief in God or
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: believe in God, you can't be someone who who is
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: just okay with not knowing or not knowing all the
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: evidence or not knowing all the information or not knowing
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: if God is real or not like that that whole
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: thing is like just not acceptable anymore. Society says. Society
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: is so encamped in one direction or the other that
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: you have to pick. And I even see this students,
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: and I talked to my students about this, where I'm like,
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: history is not black and white, just like your life
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: is not black and white. Just because I think somebody
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: else is wrong does not mean that they're wrong, and
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: it also doesn't mean that you're right.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: It's it's a weird world. It's because like that's the
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: that's the that binary system is that like it's slotting
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: us into categories. It's like it's like boom, you're here,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Boom you're there. It's like in every way like there
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: is no And part of that, I think is just
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: the scope, like the scope of the world. It's like
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: like right now, I could open a tab and I
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: could message my third grade teacher, like I could if
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: I could think of her name, I could find her
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: and I could figure out where she lives and I
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: could send her a message. It's just like that should
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: not happen like that. We should We are not living
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: at a human scale in any way it's like like
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: this album or release that we just did, it's I
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: at a bar, that is, I just picked the closest
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: bar to my studio and I rented it out and
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: all the old it's an American legions, so like all
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: the old veterans had to still be able to come.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: So they were just there and they were all super
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: drunk and then all my i'd like fans like flew
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: in from all over the country and stuff to go
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: to this little show, and it was just like this
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: is a this is at human scale. Yeah, like even
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: though people had did have to fly across the country
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: for it and stuff, it's like they're still sitting at
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the bar with this guy, this alcoholic from down the
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: street who drinks like six rum and cokes every night
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: at this same stool. And I think that like the
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: bigger we get, like the less localized to get, the
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: bigger and the more reach that we have, the more
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: that it is impossible to live in the middle lane
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: because it's like we're going at a thousand miles an hours,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: like which one are you? Baby? Like go left right,
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: I'm moving off. I'm like putting baggage off the baggage carousel.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: At the airport. It's like, you can't, you can't make
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: me think about this because I'm picking.
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: And it's so much more important that you do go
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: to that show at the American Legion, right, because that
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: is a more human experience, that is, that is that
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: is interacting with the gray of the world, not the black.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: And white right totally, and even like to take it
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: a step farther, there's like that there's like the d
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: shittification of the Internet, saying that I don't know if
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: you guys have heard about that at all, but basically
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: the models for all this stuff is that they give
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: you something that's way too good to be true, and
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: they get you hooked on it, and then they slowly
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: make it worse worse, worse worse and could get their
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: margins better. So like if you go all the way
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: back like when it started with uber, Uber is the
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: kind of prime example which it was like WHOA, I
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: can cab across town for five dollars, Like yeah, this
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: is amazing, and then you realize, no, it's all fake.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: And now I now I have a good were on
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: my phone getting a cab and the cabs are all
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: out of business, so now I have to pay eighty
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: five dollars instead, and it smells like piss in here,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: and this guy's smoking cigarettes and blasting like reggaetron music.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's like like like this idea that like
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: I don't think that think like I mean, there are
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: for sure exceptions to this, but like for me, the
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: things that I love the most and the things that
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: I do well don't scale very well. Like I was
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: never gonna play stadiums. I wasn't. I knew that from
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: when I was a teenager, like I'm not gonna do that.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: I did play the Zaga Stadium. It's right, you did one.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: You did one, But like I just knew. It wasn't
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: like I was like, man and my best thing I
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: could do like a big soft seat theater thing where
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: people are paying attention in they're here, and I can
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: turn it into a small room like I could do that.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: But like, you know, like one of the things John
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: Mark talked about with Dan was that like when you
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: go to Japan and you get a I don't know
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: if you guys have been there, but my wife and
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: I just went and like you go to like a
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: you know, like a Ramen restaurant that has six seats,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: and this guy's been doing this for it's like fourth generation.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: And his whole purpose in life is to make the
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: best thing that he can't and he can't do it
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: for more than six people at a time. And there's
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: something like so a lot of it too. It's kind
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: of like late stage capitalism stuff that I think that
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: we don't really recognize how how embedded it is and
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: everything that we do. That you either have a you
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: either have a mom and pop chicken restaurant that's barely
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: making it, or you have eight hundred Chick fil as.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: There's no middle ground. It's like you can't you can't
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: exist in the small neighborhood human scale because the whole
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: system is designed to either blow up. It's like your
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: post is either going viral or what's going to eight
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: hundred people. There's no middle ground. And and for me,
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: it's just like I that's one of the big struggles
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: that I'm having right now is that like I never
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: wanted to go big. I never want I really didn't,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: Like I never wanted to be the biggest thing in
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: the world. I wanted to find the people that could
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: and would love it and do like serve those people
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: the best that I could and the most honestly to
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: that to infinity and beyond, you know, And so to
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: go into this world now, which is like it's either
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: going right or it's going left, succeeding or it's failing.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I didn't want to fail, and I didn't
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: want to succeed at the level that I have to
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: to succeed. So I don't really even know what to
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: do next. It's just like and I and and to
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: your point earlier, it does feel very much like a
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: specific moment in time. It's like this is one moment
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: in time that will pass because none of this is
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: what any of us want, but it is just a
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: very interesting moment in time. Watching kids say that the
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: digital world is the same as the stathysical world, and
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: you know, watching all of these things algorithmically push us
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: to infinity or to zero, it's like it is it's
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: a strange time, and it's it feels like a time
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: that is particularly unhuman at scale. But like I think,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: like with between individuals, it's actually like never been for me,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: it's like never been richer, Like I have my relationships
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: are thriving, the ones that are outside of the Internet. Yeah,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: absolutely so, yeah, sorry, I know, you guys like we
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: should talk about this new record, and I'm like, let's
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: talk about failure for an hour. That's that's the record though,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: that's the record, totally.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie though to This has been one
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: of the most enjoyable conversations we had this year on
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: the on the podcast, it's it's it feels like we're
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: getting to the heart of things.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, like the cool thing is like there's a
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: million other things that I like wanted to bring up
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: or they would have brought up, and I just like,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: I want to be respectful everyone's time. But like there's
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: what I do know is this conversation could have gone
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: on another like two hours.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, easily. I Yeah, I mean, I really
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: appreciate you guys having me on and I love I
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: do love this record. I'm really proud of it, and
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: it's definitely the most me thing I've ever made, and
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: in some ways, I think that's maybe why I have
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: such a tumultuous relationship with it, because I have that
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: relationship with myself. But I'm really proud of it and
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: it has a spirit to it that I don't think
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: any of my other records do for better for worse.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Like it has a very specific feeling and a very
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: strong spirit, like almost like a soul to it that
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: I think you feel when you listen.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: To it, So I think listeners can feel it as well. Yeah,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: should we talk about your guilty pleasures quick?
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure?
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: All right, let's do it all right, So no particular order? Yeah,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: five guilty pleasure artists? Oh?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Five? Okay, okay, okay, yeaheah, that's tough. Yeah, so the
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: artists that you know it?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: You know, you just talk talked about your friends, like
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: maybe that your friends would make fun of you for
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: listening to right, So I don't. I'm sure Colin maybe
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: give you an example. But Culin loves Creed, huge fan
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: of Creed. For me, I'm a huge fan of Train,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: just like anything really dropped the Jupiter.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh I love the Jupiter comes on. I'm I'm
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: going all out and I'm.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: Going all worship every time. I'll make fun of him
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: every time.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic. I think that's great. Well, I told I
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: told him before you came on that my first concert
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: was Creed.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: Hell yeah, opened Nickelback.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: First of three Nickelback. Why who is the middle or
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: was middle? Was bangled? Seven Dust? Do you remember them? Oh?
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember Seven Dust? Wow.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the hell of a show. That's a good show.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: That is a great show.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Like if you if you were, like if you're currently
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: forty five and you're a white dude who just got divorced,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: like that is that is your like like.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: That would that would get you through?
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: If like if all three of those bands played together
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: right now, like that would get you through another year?
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: Your shirt is not your shirt is not staying on
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: for that show?
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: Definitely not for sure. What year was that? Do you remember? Oh?
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Man, I was in like I was in middle early
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: middle school. I think my mom had to take us there.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: Did you my mom stay? Oh yeah, she stayed in
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: the we were on the floor. She was on the
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: floor with us, but she walked away. But one thing
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I remember. The thing I remember is that I was
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: there with my two friends and it was like the
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: turnover between Seven Dusts and Creed, and I hadn't seen
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: my mom all night, so I thought she was just gone.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: And then these these like three chicks up in the
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: top start flashing everybody, and I was probably like, yeah,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: I bet you was in the fifth or sixth grade
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my gosh, this is that's
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: what they look like. I was like, this is this
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: is a groundbreaking moment. And I turned around. My mom
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: was there. She was, dude. She because she knew what
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: was happening. She came over to police dude, and.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: I was, so, did your mom say anything about it later?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: No, No, she is. My mom's thing was like kind
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: of a uh like, uh, what's piece by strength?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: She's rolled Reagan?
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: She was robbed Reagan, dude. She was piece by strength, Dude,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: she was she was parked the aircraft carrier off the coast,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: and don't say anything. That was her. That was her motif.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Do do you ever think about the fact that, like
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: the first time you probably ever saw boobs, your mom
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: saw that with you.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. Yeah, it's a very strange moment. I think
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: she was kind of like, I think she was kind
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: of like, this is my guess if I was to
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: talk to her about it, she's not with us anymore.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: But if I was to talk to her about it,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: she'd probably say like she'd probably say like I figured
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: this is a good of the time of a place
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: for you to learn about.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: This makes sense. Yeah, wellment you realize you want her
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: to be an artist when you grew up totally.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: I mean I want to do that Scott's dat foot
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: on the monitor with fire they had fire?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: Oh nice, you.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Can't beat it, And so I'll start with Creed. I also,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: I mean I covered Nickelback on my last covers EP.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah that was a great cover too, Yes, thank you?
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, can we just Also I always forget
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: their guitarist name, but like, that dude is just legitimately,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: I don't care if it's Creed or not. That dude
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: just has some of the best guitar licks ever, and
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: he's so ridiculously talented.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think, like, I like you, Mason.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Where do you live again? I live in Minneapolis. Yeah,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: so you guys are mid good mid Midwest boys for sure.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I like I grew up in Like, if
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: you live anywhere rural, like that stuff is in your book,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: you could you could not escape.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: You in South Dakota, you could not escape. Yeah, it's
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: in your bood. It's gonna be in your book.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like eastern Eastern Eastern Washington. It's the same way, right.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. In fact, like yeah, when I've I've been
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: to both Dakota's only once, but I was there and
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: I was like, this is the same place I grew up.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: This feels the same Yeah, yeah, you know. So that's one.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: The other one, I'm trying to think of some others here. Uh.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: When I was a kid, my dad would take me
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: to the Gorge to see the Dave Matthews band, oh man,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: and I would sleep in the back of the of
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: the car on the way home because it was like
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: two hour drive. Yeah, and I think, like now that
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: I'm a little bit older, there's some songs that are
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: that are kind of unf like when he's scatting and
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: stuff that are pretty unforgivable. But dude, you listen at
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: you here crashing. To me, I still think that song
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: stands up.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: I don't care what anyone says. Dave Matthews band has
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: one of the greatest drummers ever, Carter Beauford. Baby, Yeah
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: that's his name. He's incredible. Said Okay, quick, quick little
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: side tangent story if I can so. My wife and
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: I were on a Chicago River cruise, right, So we
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: were going through Chicago and if.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: You get here, did you get a bunch of shit
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: dumped on you or what?
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: That's where I'm going with this, you know what. Uh So,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: if you know anything about the Dave Matthews band, they're
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: famous for a story where their tour bus was going
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: over a bridge in Chicago and one of these tour
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: cruises was going underneath the bridge and they released their
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: porta Potti refuse into the river and it ended up
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: landing all over the people on one of these boats.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: And I was telling my wife as we were, you know,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: traveling down the river, and I was like, hey, one
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: of these bridges, like Dave Matthews Band released a bunch
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: of shit on people. And as soon as I was
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: like looking it up to like remember which bridge it was,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: we were literally going over that see under that same bridge,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: And it was exactly twenty years to the day that
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: it had happened. Whoa, yeah, pretty wild. My wife thought
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: I was like a soothsayer at that point.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: I think that is amazing. Yeah, that was that was
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: a big deal.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: It was like whoa, yeah, it was like headlines all
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: over the country.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: That is so funny.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, to this day, it's probably one of the
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: only reasons why some people know who Dave.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, absolutely absolutely.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: So that's when I still I mean, Alan's in my
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: blood for sure. I really like these are I do.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: I like pop music, and I like, like I really
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: like Justine or like, yeah, I really like I think
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: of a good example.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: You're gonna say justin Timberlake.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I do like justin Timberlake. There's some other ones like
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: like I like I like the Beebes, I like justin
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Bieber Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know. That's those are
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: those are some honestly. One guilty pleasure that I have
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: is that I was just with I was just in
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: New York with a friend who is like my kind
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: of most find the music friend, Like he's the hippiest
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: music guy. And he he said to me, he was like,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: he's like, no, everyone knows that you famously don't listen
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: to music. And I was laughing about that because in
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: some ways he's kind of true, because like, especially like
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: when I was making this record, for instance, like I
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: was not I was sitting in here like all day long,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna go home and like put a record on.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: I was like I wasn't, really I was like just
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: give me peace and quiet. So I would say though, like,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: especially in the past couple of years, I've especially new music.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: That's one guilty pleasure that I've had, or like a
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: guilty admission is that I don't I haven't been listening
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: to a ton of music, but especially while I've been
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: making this record. But okay, the last one I would say, though,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: is I really like I do like country music, h
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: new new country music. I think, very very rarely like
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: a song. Okay, here's one, a song called Springsteen by
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: some guy that wears a trucker hat. I think that
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: sounds great, But I'm a sucker for like turn, like
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: the country turn of phrase, so like like a clever
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: country song, that'll that's it, That'll get me for sure.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: Springsteen is by Eric Church.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: I think that song's great.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: Interesting, Okay, if.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: You can get if you can get around. One of
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: my friends says that all styles of music are just
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: rock and roll with an annoying addition totally, so like,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: like you know, like country is just rock and roll
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: with an annoying twang. And he would say that punk
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: music is rock and roll with an annoying yell.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: Play too fast, So yeah, anyway.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: I like that. Yeah, I would not have taken you
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: as a country fan at all, but I don't I
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: don't know if i'd say a fan.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: But like every once in a while it'll come on
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: and I'll be like, this is doing it for me
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: in the same way like if you're if you're at
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: a bar and like a Nickelback song or a Creed
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: song comes on, It's like the right country song comes
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: on at a you know honky like not hockky top,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: but like you know bar with like a dollar bills
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: stable to the wall. Yeah, it's gonna it's just like
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: this is proper, this is proper.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: I just did that last weekend and it felt right,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: It felt natural.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, everything in its right place. You know.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: That's a rat radio ahead exactly were exact way of
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: like nice.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: It's like we've been best friends for a while. Well, Tyson,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for well. Actually, before we before
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: I close this out, what do you want to plug?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: Obviously new albums out. I don't know if you got
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: any shows going on or not, but yeah, what do
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: you want to plug?
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: Definitely love for me? To check out the record after
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: I gave us such a glowing endorsement on this podcast
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: with you guys, I do. I do love that. I
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: love the record, and I hope people people will do
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: love it. And also I wrote a book a couple
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: of years ago that I'm really proud of is called
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: Where the Waves Turn Back. I love people to check
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: that out. But the thing that I'm the most proud
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: of right now is that I'm currently in the process
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: of trying to collect as many copies of the movie
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Hook on VHS as possible, and I'd actually like to
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: collect if I can. I'd like to collect every single
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: copy that exists.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: Just wait, that's is that the That's not the one
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: that like was like the last Oh okay, that one
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: that I for some reason in my mind, I was
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: thinking Hook was like one of those last movies that
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: came out originally on VHS. But that that's not correct, right,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: that they camp I came out way before VHS ended up.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, this would have been this would have
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: been like uh ninety like ninety five or something. Yeah.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Dustin Hoffman plays Captain Hook in it.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's right, plays a horse great Captain Hook I
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: mean maybe the best. He literally just became Captain Hook.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: It's so good. Ru Rufo is in it. You know,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: he's a great character, Rufio, Rufio, Rufio.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: What's your what's your fascination with Hook?
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: What what drew you to that movie in particular?
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: Well, them, I should say, Well, for one thing, I
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: would say it's criminally underrated. You know, it's it is
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: a great performance by Robin Williams. The set design is
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: ten out of ten. And you know it's just a
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: lost It's just the lost piece of my childhood. So
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to see how many copies I can get.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: So how many?
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: How many would you say you have?
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: Do you do you have them counted?
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of new in the in the in the
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: in the this expedition that I'm on, but I bet
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: you've got about four hundred copies of it for four.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: Hundred, Yeah, But I'm trying to get like, do you
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: have like a room do you just have a room
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: of Hook?
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, there's a line. They're in a line.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: It's amazing.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So here's okay, is it a thing where
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: like you're just collecting them to collect them or have you?
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Do you try when you collect it?
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: Do you actually try to watch hook on that particular
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: VHS tape?
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: No, I don't watch them all I will, but all
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: occasion put it on, you know, in the background, just
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: you're just like hoarding it to hold it. Yeah, exactly, Okay,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: that's fair.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: You're trying to corner the market. Yeah, so you know,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: sooner or later, these are going to get extremely expensive,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: especially if you start to you know, dwindle down to
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: like the last rewriting copies. What would be your top dollar?
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: Do you think before just before you would just be like,
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: all right, that's that's too much. I can't. I can't
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: add to my collection.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: Anyway right now. I mean, you know, it's like it's
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: probably like you can, like if you go to the
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: thrift store, there's usually going to be like two or
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: three copies there, and it's usually like, you know, you
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: can you can get them all for you know, a
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: dollar or so. You probably get five copies for a dollars.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: So down the line, I mean, if if I was
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: on this is the last copy in existence, there's a
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: chance that I would pay top dollar. You know, I'd yeah,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: you know, I'd say, at least one hundred dollars. Is
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: this is this like an investment strategy? Like?
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: Is this your retirement fun like as a as a musician,
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine there's much better retirement fund than I
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: guess hoarding every copy of Hook in the in the universe.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah you know, I mean eventually I'd like to put
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: them in a building in charge of the mission, just
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: to see all the copies.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: You're basically gonna be like the Martin Screlly of.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: Hook exactly exactly. I'm gonna pretend that I know that reference.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: Martin Screlley was a guy who who uh he made it.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: He like bought the patent for Ah, what's the drug
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: that I can't Oh? It was it was you stick
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: it in your leg so that you can it was
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: an allergic reaction.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: I thought it was it a was it that or
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: was it a Well, that guy I know what you're
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: talking about. He's the guy that bought that. He's the
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: guy ye and he's the guy that had he bought
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: the Wu Tang record. Yeah he bought Yeah, that's right, Yeah,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah. That's a good poll man, good good
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: poll there, Thank you, thank you. I don't know why,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: but for some reason, his name sounds like a director.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: He sounds like he does.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: He sounds like somebody that would be like in a
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: crypto Ponzi scheme to me, which I guess that's true,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: that's he is. I guess for sure.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: If we were to take a bet right now, and
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: we all betted that, yes, he is in a in
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: as a safe ass batou all make money.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're totally We're definitely hitting on that one
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: for sure, for sure.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm I'm excited for your your retirement strategy.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: You know, who needs four to one case? You know
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: when you got hooked right.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: When you got four hundred hooks.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: That's right, exactly, Actually I have. It's incredible. You guys
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: can cut this out if you want to, but uh,
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: this is an actual thing that happened to a kid
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: that I went to high school with who was doing
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: this with the movie Speed, and he's by every copy
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: of Speed too. Wow, this was like years and years
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: and years ago. This would have been like early early aughts,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: early twenty tens. And it became like national and international
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: news and like he was all over the news. It
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: was like one of the first kind of early viral.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: It was like big Twitter thing, and people would send
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: him like twenty five copies a day, and at one
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: point he was up to like I think he had
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: like six or seven thousand copies of Speed and it
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: was in this room and then he anyway, it was
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: ald thing. So I stole that idea from my friend Ryan,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: who I went to high school with, who I still
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: think Ryan. Yeah, I think he's got about six thousand
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: copies of Speed.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: Gosh, just out of curiosity, does Ryan is he single?
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, because ever since he was famous for
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: collecting Speed, I haven't heard much.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: I'm just I'm just trying to imagine a Ryan having
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: a significant other and him trying to justify this, uh,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: this endeavor of his.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: Who even knows, who even knows what he's up to.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: There's society for everybody out there. Yeah. I actually was
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: watching a Speed on TV while I got my haircut today.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: It's a great movie. I don't know if it's six
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: thousand copies great.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: But it's it is definitely not copies.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: Guys, my friend is waiting for me at the bar
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: down the street, so I gotta go, all right, man,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: heym really, we're the best.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for hanging out, enjoy your time
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: with your friend at the bar, and.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: Thanks for I love talking to you guys. Dude, this
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: is always a pleasure.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: So yeah, let's do it more often.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, anytime, just send me, send me a message. I'll
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: come talk to you guys any day.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: The mind