Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: A Brutal Murder, a Web of Lies and the Wrong Man Sent to Prison

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Killer Thriller: A Brutal Murder, a Web of Lies and the Wrong Man Sent to Prison · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: is Killer Thriller. What if you came home one night
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: to find your spouse brutally murdered and within days you
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: were the one being accused of the crime. Well, that's
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: exactly what happened to Russ Farrea, a man who was
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted, spent years in prison, and was later exonerated
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: for killing his wife. It all unfolds in The Thing
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: About Pam, a series starring Renee Zellweger based on the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: real life case, and it is full of outrageous twists,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: shocking events, and ever shifting narratives, and the real life
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: case is still playing out in the courts. Today we
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: are joined by Glenn Fleschler, who plays the role of
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: rus Firea. Glenn, thank you so much for being here today.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk to you about this show.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: So first, I loved this series so very much, and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: you're so wonderful in it, as is everyone. And you know,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: it's such a unique kind of tone that sort of
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: leans into the I think bizarre and you know nature
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: of the whole crime. But before you were cast, did
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: you know anything about it? Did you had you heard
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: about Pam Hup or the case?
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: No, I knew not a thing about it.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Wow, So you just read the script and went, wow,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: this isn't is this real?
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I don't remember what I read right away. I do
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: remember that I got an audition, and you know how
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: sometimes you know, you want to put your best foot forward,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and sometimes you just don't have time.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: This was one of those times where I think I
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: was doing like multiple jobs, and uh, this audition came
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: in and I said, well, this is kind of interesting,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: but I don't really have time to do it. Like
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: I almost didn't do it. And then I was like,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I think I'm going to have to just like do
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: one take and just get it done. I don't know
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: if I had your phones in my ear. There was
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: something weird that I did with the phone call. It
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: was Russ's nine to one one phone call and it
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: was a lot of historyonics.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: And oh my gosh.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember thinking this is terrible. This is terrible,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like I almost send it
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: right like this is all I had time to do.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you got to let yourself look and
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: be like, well, this is this is.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: What I gues, this is what I got.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: In the running. But I ended up getting the job.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: And in fact, over the months that we were working
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: on this, from time to time that producers would talk
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: about my audition, they'd be like, it was such a
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: great audition and I would cringe because I just, my god,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: so terrible. And I knew that I could do a
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: better job once I, you know, really prepare for the role.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: But right I never, I just was it was just
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: a good faith that I got that.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so funny. There's something like that's
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you know, great about that for us to remember sometimes
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: we're meant for certain parts and that's just the way
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: it is. And sort of you're you're a built irnate
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: ability and your first instinct is the right one and
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: it's great, you know, So it's a good lesson for
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: your lesson.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And also like, you can't get cast if you
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: don't put yourself in the running. So sometimes I think
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: like I have to be right. I'm sorry, I got
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: to get it perfect, and sometimes you're just you know,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: what they're looking for.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I firmly believe that. So okay, So
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: just for the people that are maybe unfamiliar with the
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: details of the case, we'll just like do a quick
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: run through of what they are. In December of twenty eleven,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: this woman, Pam Hup, she is a house flipper, married
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: woman in Missouri. She becomes a sole beneficiary of her
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: friend Betsy Furrea's life insurance policy. Five days later, Betsy
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: is murdered in her home and stabbed multiple times. They
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: arrest the husband your character, mainly based on kind of
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: the things that Pam tells them about him, about their relationship,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: et cetera. So he serves three years in prison, then
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: he is exonerated. Then Pam Hup kills this other man,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Lewis Gumpenberger, in her home, claiming self defense. She's charged
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: with first degree murder, and it just goes on and
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: on and on, like the insanity of this person is right,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: and then probably her mother, like she's really relentless in
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: her kind of pursuit of But we've just got like
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: we talk a lot about a lot of narcissists on
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: this show, because oftentimes the these sorts of killers are
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: incredibly narcissistic, and you know, she acts as though it's
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: not her fault that she I mean, she quite literally
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: makes up lies, but then you know, always sort of
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: claiming that she's injured and that it's someone else's problem.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: And I mean, when you realize that this was a
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: real story, what was your like? Did you could you
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: believe it? What did you think?
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was so much to it, and Pam
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Hupp herself was such an extreme character, and also so
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: was Russell. And what I was attracted to was the
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: fact that normally I am the guy who commits the.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Murderer, right, That's what I was thinking, Yeah.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Murderers, and so I was like, in this case, I
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: didn't do it, So that was attractive, right. But the
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: main part, the main gist of the experience for me,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: was talking to our showrunner Jenny Klein. I had the
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: good sense to call her and just say, like, I
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: haven't really talked to anyone about this show. I'm supposed
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: to go to New Orleans and shoot it. We had
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: gotten postponed because of a hurricane that happened. Oh, things
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: got delayed a month, and I just sort of felt
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: like I haven't really I've been doing my own you know,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: watching the dateline stuff, whatever research I could get my
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: hands on at the time, but I thought I should
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: talk to somebody, and luckily I called Jenny and we
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: had this great conversation and she said, you know, I
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: think you should meet Russell Faria, who was the character.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Yes, so did you tell me so?
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So she put us in touch and we ended
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: up having hours and hours of phone conversations over several days.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: He was actually on a road trip. It was like
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: driving across country, and so we would have to time
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: it out so that he could be somewhere where he
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: would have you know, Wi Fi or something. So we
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: did it in these kind of increments, and then we'd
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: have these like really long talks for hours and I
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: was just scribbling away, and you know, I'm not an interviewer,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: but I was like, I got to really get focused
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: because I want to get all the good stuff. Luckily,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: he made it so easy because he was so forthcoming
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: with all them. You know, I had to there was
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: no way around it. I had to go into like
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: the worst details of his life, right death of his
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: wife and the subsequent horror that he went through, and
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: there was no way to not ask him about those things.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: But He really made it so easy and was so forthcoming,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: and my big not reservation, but my like the challenge
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: of playing the role was you know, you look at
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: this from the outset, from the outside, and you think,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: how can this guy have gone this long? For instance,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: he didn't ask for a lawyer. Yes, he gurrogated him
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: for twenty four hours straight.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Right, That's what I was wondering too.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: And he didn't, you know, he didn't really protest that strongly.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: He just kind of let it happen to him. And
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: so that, you know, it comes off being like, you know,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: how could somebody be this kind of naive or and
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: when I talked to him, I just you know, it
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: really was a matter of he had such faith, he
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: had such faith in the legal system and that it
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: was going to come out, and so he just let
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: them bamboozle him basically, right. But then it was that
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: same faith that got him through several years in prison,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: being wrongly in prison before he got that appeal and
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: was able to get his name clear. So that was
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: all really fascinating and useful.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Did he say anything about because I remember thinking he
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: you know, if he was he had been out with
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: friends at the friend's house playing games and you know,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: like a sort of normal gathering that he had with
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: his friends, and you know, drinking a little or getting
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: a little high, and then that kind of like that
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: sort of shock has got to have some impact. And
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: then not sleeping and staying up, and I mean did
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: he talk at all about like I think about, you know,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: if I have a little too much wine at a
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: friend's house and come home and come to something like that,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: like it must be like you can't even believe your eyes.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean that was.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Part of the factoring in of playing it all because
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: if you listen to the real nine to one one call,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: it does seem you know, it's what Pam hump and
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: what the prosecuting attorneys played off of that. It seemed
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: like a performance because it was so hysterical. The nine
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: to one one operator thought it was a woman at first,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: and that was what I had to do in the audition.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: So you want it to be true to life, but
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: also as extreme as it is. I mean, if you
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: played it really the way that when you listen to it,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: if you played it straight like, no one would believe it, right.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: But of course it's hard for any of us to
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: put ourselves in such a horrifying situation, and he came
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: home to such a grizzly, extreme scene. So it was
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: just like that was where we were starting from. That's
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: basically the start of the show and the kind of
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: right upsetting incident.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Did he say why? I was also struck why he
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: said on the call, And maybe it was just because
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: you know, he was befuddled, and I don't know what
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: anyone would say, but he says that she, his wife,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: killed herself. And it seems like did he say why?
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: That was the instinct that he instead of saying someone
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: killed her.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: She had had a cancer diagnosis, she had struggled with depression.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't remember now, but I think there
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: were possibly earlier attempts, so that's where his mind went.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: There were slashes across her arms, right wrists, but I
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: mean that was also part of the confounding nature of
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the interrogation, was that she had been stabbed so many
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: times and it was so much blood. And what it
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: turned out was that I think that a lot of
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: the wounds were post mortem, so very staged, right, right.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't No, I don't think he could process what
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: he was.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Right, right. It really is so fascinating to me because
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: it reveals how innocent people like that. To me just
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: strikes at all of the actual facts strike me as
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: an innocent person, like that's how they would respond, but
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: how those things can be twisted into making it seem
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: like he's guilty. It's just like it's crazy to me.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: It was a sort of a perfect storm with this,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: you know, testimony from Pam who was manipulating things behind
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: the scenes, but also a process computer who wanted things
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to go a certain way, and her relationship with a
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: judge who right relationship. There were a lot of things
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: that shouldn't have gone on that went on, and you know,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: by detector tests and trying to coerce a confession. Well
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: it's the case, you know, we portray it in the
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: show like, oh the husband did it, like that's what
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: the cops are saying, because that's what usually happens. And
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: so it just fell into that narrative, and unfortunately Russ
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: was so trusting that he didn't fight it in such
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: a way that maybe some things would.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Have come to light sooner sooner, a.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Terrific alibi, and they kind of.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Just blew past that, right, that was very striking to
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: me that it's there were four or five people that said, no,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: he was.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: With us same night, and then he went to an
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: RB's and there was a receipt timestamped that he had
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: been at this Arby's. We depicted it in the show
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: of me, yeah, I ordering uh these sandwiches. Hey. In fact,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: we have a group text the actors in our show
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: called Arby's and Game Night because with Arby's and Game
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Night as like that, right defense, and.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: So so they they also portray or at least Pam
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: talks about him Russ as being having a temper and
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: that he's you know, a little dark and brooding, and
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: he doesn't it was that?
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Is that? Is that accurate? Did he say that was true?
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And then even the kids a little bit saying, well,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: the kids don't deny it.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: I guess it's sort of a gray area.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Led by the nose to make that testimony, you have
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: to ask them. I don't remember if Russ copped to
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: any sort of dark behavior. I mean, I know that
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: he and Betsy had, you know, had an on again,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: off again situation. They had gone through troubles in their marriage,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and Pam definitely tried to play off of that, but apparently,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: according to the people who knew them, they were in
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: a good place when these events happened, and Russ was
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: very close with his stepdaughters that he raised from the
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: age of roughly five. I think this one maybe, and
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: and that was just a terrible rupture in their family,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: and they were pushed to testify against him, as was
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Betsy's mother loved Russ, and between Pam and the authorities
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: and the prosecutors, they kind of convinced her that he
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: was guilty. And she sends a message at some point
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: through his attorney that she's so sorry.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean in their kid you know, there
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: their kids and they're young, and it's it's all really tragic.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I've read also that that he doesn't speak to that
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: he still hasn't spoken to the.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Children as of the conclusion of our show, and I
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: guess around when the show aired, which was my last
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: contact with people from the story, they had not reconciled.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: He hadn't spoken to them, and I did ask him
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: about that, and that was probably the place where he
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: was the most clammed up. But yeah, I felt that
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: he could not ridge that gap at that point. I
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: think right felt like such an extreme betrayal, but I
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: believe it was very painful for all involved. And our
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: showrunner Jenny certainly leaned into that part of the story.
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: She really wanted getting an Adlon who played daughter and
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: I to have, you know, for that to be a
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: significant part of the story their rupture right right.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And there is a beautiful part in the in the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: end with Russ and his current wife. I think they're married, yes, Carol,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: that so, and is that part as.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Of the time of the show. I don't know what
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: happened after that. Yeah, A very coincidental thing that she
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: she became a witness in the Gumpenberger murder because Pam
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: showed up at her house trying to lure her and
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: did lure her into her car need to be someone
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: from dateline and offering her money to go ride with her,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: and as though she was going to pay her tax
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: free or some voiceover work or something to do with dateline.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: Using date Line which comes from so diabolical.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: This woman eventually smelled a rat and saved her life
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: by getting out of this car before the Gumpenberger incident.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: And then she somehow got introduced to Russ through one
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: of his game like friends, knew her was a neighbor
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: or something, and then they ended up becoming engaged of
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: dating for years after that.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, they're saying that they are still
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: together and they were just outside of the courthouse. I
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: guess where Pam is being. They have a new the
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: new trial, the trial for the murder of Betsy. It's
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: very hard to keep track of this woman's crimes. But
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: this is, uh, they were spotted together. It was this
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: beautiful scene of you know, it's this is this is
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: the thing that's always like, uh, there's always something or
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I should say, I always look for something that's beautiful
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: and hopeful in the kind of the humanity part of
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: all of these stories. And that just seems like a
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: nice one that those two, you know, found each other.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: So this the let's talk a little bit about the
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: So this the life insurance part of the whole thing.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: So she so not just that Pam. So she became
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the beneficiary of Betsy's life insurance. And then but the
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: explanation around all of that kept changing, and I just
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: and that the kids she was supposed to set up
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: a an account for the children, which they never received
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: the money, and the fact that all of these things
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: did not become true evidence in the first case is like,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: I can't understand any of that. It just makes no sense.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Right. So they had a separate case that was a
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: sibil case that the daughters sued Pam, and that's where
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of video which has become sort of
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: iconic video of Pam acting out in all these different
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: ways in that deposition.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: And that's the whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa who.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: That's which we recreated in our show. But and you
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: see at the end of the series they show the
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: real footage and I'm sure it's everywhere online if you
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: wanted to see that. But yeah, just for going whoa
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: whoa whoa whoa whoa, and a lot of other things
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: and a lot of like real testiness with the attorneys
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: and you know, erratic behavior. And she was just used
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: to changing her story at every turn. She would just
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: make up new testimony. Suddenly she and Betsy had a
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: love relationship.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: That was a thing that came later, right, right, I
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: forgot about that.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: We just had a love you know, this love connection,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and that just came out of nowhere down the road.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: It wasn't. In her original testimony, there were a lot
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: of things like that, she just you know, and she
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: had put a typed a letter on Betsy's computer that
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: was supposed to be from Betsy to Pam or to
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: somebody saying like that Russ was abusing her and all right,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: and they were able to use that against her in
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: the trial. They were able to prove that it wasn't uh,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: it wasn't natural to a computer that somehow.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Right, it was like from it it was like the
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: difference between like a MAC and a and a you know,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: a PC or something like.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: It didn't He was trying to make it look like
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Pam had written all the stuff but then never sent
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: the letter, and she'd done a couple of things like that, right,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: and then claimed like why would I, you know, if
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: I was going to do it, you know, my mother
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: has five hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy, like if
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I needed the money, you know, she kind of gave
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: herself it was.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: A way, and it turns out I do need that money.
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: So now she's I can't the whole the whole letter's
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: part of it too, Like that one and then there's
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: another letter, like when she says in the in the show,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: she says, after killing.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Rumpenberg, I'm never gonna remember his name. Rumpenberger, right with
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: a G, Yeah with a gg when she killed After
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: she kills Gumpenberger and says to the police, you might
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: want to check about there's a little letter sticking out
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: of his pocket. You know, that was like she clearly
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: wrote saying, you know, seem I mean, she.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Could have gotten away scott free because I think she
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: guessed that she had this terrible response to the idea
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: that Russ had gotten out of prison because the case
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: would have been left alone at that point. But then
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: she tried to fabricate this whole story where Russ had
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: hired this man to kill her. Calls nine one one,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: so you hear them on this nine one one call,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: and then she kills him in cold blood, I mean.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Allegedly, allegedly. Let's talk about the mom for a second.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: That her death. So her mother was discovered dead after
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: falling from the balcony at her assisted living home, and
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: then they also found an extraordinary amount of ambient in
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: her system, like ten times the amount that she should
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: have or something so do you think that she's responsible.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: She was the last person who saw her, and yeah,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: all the ambient and then some concocted like faulty railing
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: right well, certainly seemed like it, but that was not
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: At the time of our show. That case had not
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: been prosecuted. Maybe it was being investigated still or I'm
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: not sure where the authorities left that case.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: But right I think it's still being investigated right now,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: it'll probably be up and coming. It's what's so disturbing,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: obviously about her is that she comes across as so
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: ordinary at first and so actually congenial in some regard,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: and then but she's obviously deeply ill. Were there any
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: were there moments when you were shooting this where you
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: felt like, I can't believe that this is real.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was most of it. Yeah, but it
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: was so specific. The details were so specific that it
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: had to be real, because who could make this up
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: except that except her? You know that right about things
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: was so strange. But also I'm a lifelong New Yorker,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: so you know, that's why I said about trying to
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: get into Russ's head. I was like, you know, I
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: would be so naturally skeptical of everything that was going on.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So the idea rightsting and you know, of the legal
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: system and everything and everyone and even says like, oh
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: to his lawyer, Oh yeah, Pam Hope, she's a nice lady.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I don't think he really knew her that well or
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: thought that much about her. That was so out of
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: nowhere for most of these people that, right. I think
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: she was trying upon herself off as like a better
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: friend than she actually was.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Right, So that's what. Yeah, I was curious about.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: It, and somehow convinced her to or however she manipulated
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: that insurance policy. I don't know. I don't remember the
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: details of that. But nobody saw her coming because he
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: mid West, and people don't be that way, or you
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: don't expect them to. And I think it's just one
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: of those small towns where people are a lot more trusting.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Right, It's like a similar I just spoke with doctor
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Ramslan who's a criminologist and an author and a professor,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: and she did this over ten year interview with the
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: BTK killer, Dennis Raider, and I mean that is wow.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: But he is similar in the sense of was like
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: very much a member of the community. You know, was
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: involved with everybody to some degree, and you know, just
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: sort of folded himself into the fabric. But did Russ
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: say that they were anything about how you know, his
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: relationship with her, because it did seem like he didn't
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: really even know her that well.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean we had lines in the show where
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: she accuses him of smoking around Betsy even though she
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: had cancer, and he said, like, she's never seen me smoke,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: he says to one of the lawyers, like it really,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: you know, it was a cordial relationship. But I just
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: don't think he really thought much about her or really
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: knew her. Just thought she was this nice lady that
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Betsy used to work with, and then suddenly like she
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: insinuated her way to their lives in this way that
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: he wasn't even aware of. But I know that by
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: the end he really wanted to see her put away
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: and he wanted to be there for he wanted to
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: be involved in this trial once it was reopened.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Oh I bet, I bet. Did he have any feelings
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: about the Alfred It's Alfred right?
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Is that what alf Alfred plea?
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, the plead where you do not admit your
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: guilt but you plead guilty.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, I only learned about that through the show. I'd
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: never heard of that before.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I had never heard of that either, So yeah.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: It's very consistent her character that in confessing, she would
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: do it in a sort of hot, haughty way.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and not admitting that she's guilty.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: It's almost like a political move, right. Yeah. I don't
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: think that was satisfying to a lot of people, including
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: most of Betsy's family.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure, right, But you know.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: It wasn't satisfying or to the new regime of politicians
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: that took over at that time, right, because it made
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of people look bad. It made that whole.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: It certainly made it look like a little bit of
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: a circus in terms of their whole you know, their
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: court system and there in the police department and all
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: of it. So, yes, the definition is it allows a
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: defendant to plead guilty while maintaining their innocence too, basically, Yes, yes, yes,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Oh my gosh, well, I this has been
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: super fascinating. Have you ever played anyone like this? I
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: know you always do play very scary. You're usually the
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: other the other slide characters.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: From time to time. But this was a great departure
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: and it was almost like the opposite challenge, like I said,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: because he was so trusting and had so much faith.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: It was almost the opposite of like what you were
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: talking about about. Some of these characters we know from
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: true true crime, but also people have played in fictional
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: crime where they're either hiding in plain sight or you know,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: have all these suterior motives. And here was somebody who's
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: like so banking on the truth to set him free
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: every turn, so trying to trust that and traumatized by
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: the way the system worked. You see him actually get
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: called in. I guess it was after them. It's later
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: in the series. I think it's after the Gumpenberger situation
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: because Russ's name was invoked in that scenario that right concted.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: They called him in. He was like, I'm in Florida
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: and they were like, you have to come back to Missouri.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And that was a great scene.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: He's traumatized, you know, in his lyric saying it's gonna
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: be okay, We're going to wait this out. We're not
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: going anywhere. We're just going to wait here and let
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: them clear you. But you know, you could imagine how terrifying. Oh,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: I've already gone through that situation where the system completely
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: let you down.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally failed him. And why would he you know,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: he assume it could just happen again. Yeah, he does
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: seem when I've watched a couple of interviews of him
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: post you know, more more current, and he does just
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: seems like such a like a kind hearted person. You know,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: he seems like a very somehow has come through this.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: You know, he was not bitter.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly, That's a great way to say it.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Years after. I mean, obviously the legal proceedings were still
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: happening involving various aspects of this case, but it had
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: been a while since he had done time and all that,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: he'd gotten his life together and had love in his
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: life and all of that. But obviously the family hadn't
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: completely recovered, and there were there was a lot of pain,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: but he was not bitter. He learned from the experience,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it was just like a real man of faith.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's an admirable response most certainly.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: As far as what I could tell enough. I don't
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: want to act like I'm an expert on him, because
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you know, so talking over a few days. Sure, sure,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: very generous of him to do that and be so
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: to be so open with me, and it was in
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: valuable of course.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I I've loved talking about this and you
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: can stream the show. The thing about Pam, it's a
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: really really uh incredibly well done series and you're terrific
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: in it, Rene Cellware, terrific in it. Everybody, the whole
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: cast is great. What can we see you in next?
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: What are you doing? What are you working on?
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: What do you want to tell us? In the New
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: York area, I'm seeing Romeo and Juliet inral bar playing
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: a little capula Juliet's father.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Stop it are you doing Shakespeare? You're doing the Shakespeare
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: in the Park this summer.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Classic.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: I'm a New Yorker, so I'm from New York, so
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I this is like, oh, I'm so excited for you.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: The third time it's been done, oddly, even though Shakespeare
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: and the Park has been going on since like the
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: late fifties, early since third production. I was kind of
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: shocked to learn that because it seems like a play
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: that's done all the time. So yeah, we're a few
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: weeks into rehearsals now, so that's that's the next big thing.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Ah that is when what are the dates? When does
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: that run?
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: It starts in late May and it runs till June
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: twenty eighth, so it's early part of summer. Oh.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be there for a couple of days.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try to get myself in there. It's
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: very hard. It's hard to get seats for that free.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: So that's the great part. But you do have to wait.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: You have to wait, right.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I might have to get my sleeping bag.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: And wait for tickets and right right.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's such a wonderful experience. I'm so excited for you.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: It'll be amazing.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for talking with me, Glenn.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I hope we get a chance to do it again.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Maybe you know, you'll play a serial killer next time.
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: Make a chat again, very much,