Latest / Beautifully Complex / 364: PDA Through a Problem-Solving Lens: Moving from Power Struggles to Partnership, with Stacey Curnow, LCMHC

Transcript

364: PDA Through a Problem-Solving Lens: Moving from Power Struggles to Partnership, with Stacey Curnow, LCMHC · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Curiosity and compassion are really key, and if we can
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: just keep leaning into that over and over again for ourselves,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: for our child, we're going to get through it. You know,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: It's just it's a lot, but we're going to get
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: through it. And that's what I want is to really
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: send this message and we can figure this out together.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back everybody. I
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: am really honored to have with me Stacy Kernow, and
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about PDA, what PDA is, what
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: PDA isn't, and how to really determine or start to
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: determine if that might be the right fit for your
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: kid or if it's not. Really but Seec, will you
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: start by letting everybody know who you are and what
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: you do. Then we'll dive into it.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much. Again, it's such an honor
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: to be here and a guy. I'm Stacy Kerno. I'm
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: the founder of Asheville Family Counseling. We like to call
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: ourselves a one stop shop for all of your family's
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: needs because we do the couples counseling, the family counseling,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the individual counseling, child counseling, parent coaching, and we have
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: a very attachment base. Again, are the theoretical framework that
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: we lean into is attachment theory, this idea that human
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: beings are attachment creatures, and we do best when we're
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: in relationship, when we're in healthy relationships that honor our autonomy,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: that honor our interconnectedness. And so I also mainly provide
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: family and couples counseling. I'm not doing so much individual
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: counseling right now because again I see, we get the
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: most traction when we do it together, because so many
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: of us are caring what I call these kind of
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: invisible scripts from what we learned from our parents, and
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: they're not serving us, not in our love relationships, not
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: in our familiar relationships. So I really enjoy that aspect,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: and again, just so happy to be here.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad that you're here, and I'm really
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: happy to have this conversation because we haven't talked about
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: PDA enough on this podcast, which is kind of surprising
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: because I think we're recording three hundred and sixty four number. Like,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: we've had a lot of conversations, so it's definitely time
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: past time to talk about it. Let's start with just
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: the basics. For anybody who doesn't know what PDA is,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: tell us what it stands for, tell us a little
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: bit about it.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: So PDA stands for a pathological demand avoidance. The label
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: was created in the eighties by a researcher, by a
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: woman researcher in England who was looking and working researching
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: kids with autism, and so she created this idea of
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: PDA as a subset of autism. And this is really
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: widely accepted label. Again, it's not diagnostic, it's not even
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: in their equivalent in England of the DSM of a
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: diagnostic manual, and it crossed the pond. You know, maybe
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: ten years ago we started hearing more about PDA in
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: counseling circles and then, as many people have probably noticed,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: now everyone's talking about PDA, and so I think why
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: it's gotten traction is because for me, as awful as
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you know, a manned avoidance, you know, a pathological demand
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: avoidance sounds when you really understand it, you see it
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: as a very I think it's a compassionate lens to
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: look at children because it's really identifying that this is
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: a nervous system response to a perceived threat. So again
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: it's it's right there in the acronym. If we kind
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: of lean into even a more compassionate kind of framework,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: which is you know, many counselors and he included everyone
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: at AFC has kind of reframed PDA as persistent desire
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: for autonomy, because what we see again and again is
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: we get this nervous system overwhelmed, this this reaction when
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: a child perceives a threat. And again, if we really
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: drill down, it's usually this threat to their sense of autonomy. Right,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: all human beings have of a strong desire, a need.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: It's a basic human need for autonomy, right, that ability
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: to make choices based on our own will, our own
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: meeting the challenges that we're facing. We want to feel
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: like we're included in the solution to the problems that
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: are affecting us. That to me is autonomy. And so
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: when we look at these kids who are having these
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: big reactions, and again, if it's a threat, right, if
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: it's a perceived threat, and we're vertebrates like I mean
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: a snail, you know, like or snake, it's what I
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: meant to say to a higher level primate. If they
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: perceive a threat, they react in one of four ways, right,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: fight flight, freeze, or collapse or a piece sometimes it's
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: called the piece, the people pleasing the collapse. And that's
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: what we see in these kids. So again, I think
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: that's why it really resonates, is that we're accepting that
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: it's a a nervous system response to a perceived threat,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: and especially to autonomy. These are the behaviors that we're seeing.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: They would fall into one of those categories of fight, flight, freeze,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: or collapse or peace.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: M Yeah, I'm so glad that you're talking about the
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: nervous system because it's so important for all the other pieces.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: As parents of NERD virgin kids, we often worry about
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: social things and school success and executive function and all
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of these skills that are lagging and stuff. But it
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: all starts with the nervous system. We have to be
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: regulated first.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, we can't learn right. We're wanting right, and these
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: kids want to learn these skills too, They want to
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: get along well in their families and their social systems,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: and they can't learn in that state of nervous system overwhelm. Again,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: we understand the brain pretty well to know that that
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: executive functioning happens in the prefrontal cortex, but that will
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: flip when right, we won't have access to that problem
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: solving logical you know, ability to project the consequences of
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: our actions if we're scared or overwhelmed or exhausted. So again,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: the more that we can orient to the nervous system
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: and understand that this is a reasonable, to be expected response,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: then we can start to solve the problems that are
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: creating that nervous system overwhelm. And then we're completely changing
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: the trajectory. We're no longer seeing those concerning behaviors.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about what qualifies as PDA.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: What would help to determine if that label, for lack
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: of a better word, is appropriate for a person's particular child.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it's such a good question because I really
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: align and we'll talk more about my affiliation with doctor
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Ross Green and his collaborative and proactive solutions model, and
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: I really lean into doctor Green. So he has a
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: non diagnostic stance because his philosophy and I really agree
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: with it, is that diagnoses can help us have a
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: shared language between clinicians and parents and their children, and
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: so it kind of gets us all in the same page.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: So that's very helpful and it may even inform our
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: treatment decisions. But at the end of the day, a
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: diagnosis a laborer doesn't solve problems. And these kids who
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: are getting this label for example, that doesn't help them.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: What helps them is helping them solve the problems and
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: then again including them in the decisions and the solutions
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: that are going to impact their lives. So I'm going
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: to just, I guess to push back a little bit
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: that I don't want to get. I mean, there is
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: like a string of kind of checkboxes. Again, if you
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: see a child who has difficulty with transitions, who has
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: these big reactions to a request again like a demand.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I like to call it a request because no parent
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: feels like they're making demands when they ask their child
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: to put on their shoes so they can go to school. Right.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: But then the child again perceives that as a demand
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: that overwhelms them. And again from a parent's point of view,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: they would be like, it wasn't a demand, it was
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: just a request. What's so hard about this? But again,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: that's what I would like the parents to ask the
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: child rather than to think this shouldn't be so hard
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: and just focus on getting the shoes on or saying
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: that behavior of you know, crying, fighting, running away is
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: not okay. But to ask the child, I see you're
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: having a hard time putting on your shoes. What's making
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: that hard? Yeah, And then it would be a totally
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: different outcome for the parent and for the child. Ye.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Parents intuitively know again we were talking about this before
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: that you know, they'll say, oh, my kid has PDA,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: and so I'm much more interested in what it means
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: to them, and I generally align with it, because again
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: it seems to be they're more compassionate, like, oh, my
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: kid's nervous system gets so overwhelmed in the face of demands, right,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And I think that's perfectly acceptable. Again, we can all
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: look at a checklist, but that's what resonates with parents,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and that's what gets us focused on what's getting in
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: the way when a parent makes a request and this
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: child has this big response to it. So d is
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: that Okay? If we just kind of say, I think
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: people know yeah, yeah.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I think that the labels a diagnose is their information.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: They might open doors to different ideas or therapies or
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: insurance coverage things like that. Right, they might get us
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: an IP and school, but it's really about how it's
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: impacting that individual kid.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, and the family and others, right, the teachers, the friends,
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: because that's again what we're looking at when we're looking
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: at the behaviors that we find concerning. The adults find concerning,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: it's because it impacts the kid or others right again,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: the family, the sibling, a classmate, the teacher. So again
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: we want to acknowledge, like, we want to address this
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: and if it helps us organize around this idea, right,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: this label, this profile because again it's not even accepted diagnosis.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't be something that would you know, reach that
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: level of IEP. But again, teachers recognize it too. Teachers
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: educators would often see, oh yeah, I ask him to
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: fill out the math worksheet and he says he's not
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: doing it, or he tears it up, or he hides
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: under his desk. Right. So again they see it that
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: he's having difficulty right meeting a demand or request, and
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: they want to help.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and it feels so I'm at a loss
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: for words like it feels I think often disrespectful to parents.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: It feels like a personality problem. Sometimes some would label it.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, like, how do we get to a
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: place where we can understand it and reframe it, where
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: we can get unstuck from this feeling that it creates
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: for us the adult on the receiving end, to actually
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: understanding it so that we can be helpful, so that
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: we can coexist in a way that we're for everyone.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the first thing is again I've mentioned
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: having this compassionate lens towards kids many times, and I
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: also want to be clear that we need this compassionate
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: lens for the parents as well, because our nervous systems
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: are always talking to each other, and so if the
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: child's nervous system gets overwhelmed, it's very likely ours is
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: going to get overwhelmed as well. Right, So many parents
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I've had this experience where I'm doing great, like I'm
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: having a great warning and then I asked my son
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: to put his shoes on, and he has a meltdown,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I'm having a terrible day. Right,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'm met having difficulty coping. And
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: so I want us to really include parents, the teachers,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: any caregivers into this compassionate lens that we're all doing
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the best we can with you know, a tricky nervousist,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: limited resources, right, fatigue, you know, all of the issues.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: So again I would want the parent to again to
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: have this compassion lens for themselves and say, gosh, I
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: see my kids having a hard time. Now I'm having
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: a hard time, Like what do we both need to
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: kind of meet this moment with compassion and once we
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: can do that, right, Because again, so often parents, again
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: with so many responsibilities spread so thin, they're thinking, oh
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: my gosh, this kid has to get on their shoes,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: they have to get on the bus, or else I'm
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: going to miss work and then I'm going to get
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: in trouble with my boss, and then that affects my livelihood. Right,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: they're able to project the consequences of all these actions
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: which the kid, by definition, without having the fully foreigned
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex, they aren't able to extrapolate like a parent does.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: So what I really encourage is we want to get
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: better and better about solving these problems proactively, because in
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: the moment when the child is having the meltdown about
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: putting their shoes on, it's not very likely that we're
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: going to be able to solve this problems because again,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: the kid's not going to have access to the creative
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: problem solving. So it's almost like we have to make
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: a note of it, like, oh, I'm noticing that my
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: kid is having a hard time putting on their shoes.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: We're not going to be able to address it in
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: this moment, But later, in a quiet moment, I'm going
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: to say, Hey, I noticed you had difficulty putting on
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: your shoes. What's hard about that for you? And they'll
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: tell you, like if they really perceive that curiosity, that compassion,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: they will tell you, and then you have the opportunity
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: to share your concern. Right, my concern is when it's
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: hard for you to put on your shoes in the morning,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: it impacts all of us, right, you getting to school,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: and me getting to work on time. So I'd really
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: like us to solve this together, right, like what would
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: help you feel supported and getting your shoes on, and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: what would help me feel supported in us all getting
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: out the door by eight am? Yeah? And then again
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: as adults, we have you know, much more you know,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: access to a creative problem solving mindset, and that we
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: would also want to think, Okay, even if we've kind
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: of problems solved for this, and the kid is like, well,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: maybe if I didn't have to put on my shoes
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: until I got in the car, or maybe if I
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: had slip on shoes instead of shoes with laces. Right, again,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: we would problem solve for that. But then the adult,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I would hope, I would encourage, Right, this is what's
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: going to avoid the meltdown for the child and the
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: parent you know again is fast losing capacity to also say, okay,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: but if they can't put on their shoes in the morning,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: can I send them to school and socked feet? I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: mean that would be something again that they could explore,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: like with the with the school, with the administration, with
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the teachers. I found that teachers and school administrators they
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: are much more flexible than we think, right, and in
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the adult's mind, the parents' mind in the time, it's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: like he has to put on his shoes if he's
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: going to go to school. But we've literally asked teachers,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: is it okay if they come in their socks are yah,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: that's fine, you know, like as long as he gets TOSCO,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: we just want him in school, right, So we would
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: not want not being able to put on issues in
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the morning as a reason, right. But again, adults kind
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: of apparents kind of limit the available solutions very often.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So I like to really like what I call kind
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: of increase, you know, like when we're stressed, it's like
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: the lens the camera aperture really narrows, and I'm always
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: looking for ways how can we expand the aperture. Yeah.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, getting really creative is something we talk about all
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: the time because if we are stuck within those systemic parameters,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: we can't step outside of that. And that's what our
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: kids need. Like I think all kids need that, but
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: especially neurodivergent kids who experience the world differently. And we
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: have so many systems like education that are fairly inflexible,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: and we're trying to figure out ways to help our
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: kids to be able to succeed in those environments. Also,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I've had a lot of parents lately ask me, how
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: do I ask my kid with PDA profile to get
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: something done? If I can make a demand, how do
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: I ask them to get something done? And they're wanting
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to then convey that to the school and to teachers
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: and have everybody on the same page. But it gets
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: really tricky. I think it's hard to ask someone to
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: do something without any sort of threat to their autonomy, right,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: because it's our idea, it's our need. So what advice
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: do you have around that?
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Well, that's where I even call it when even the
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: conversation is perceived as a demand, right, like the parents like, hey,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: can we talk about what's hard about this so we
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: can solve it together? And again, many PDA kids will
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: just say no right from the jump, because again, even
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: the conversation, even asking for the conversation is a demand.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: And so in those cases I just say, again, we
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: just have to slice it thinner and slice it thinner,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: so we're not necessarily like saying, hey, we need to
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: talk about this. But it could be on the drive
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: to get Boba te it could be you know, as
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: we're in the bookstore picking out books, you know, like
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: again like in that really almost like quiet, calm, connected
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: moment saying then, hey, I've noticed that this is hard
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: for you, like when I ask you to do something
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: right again insert whatever that parent is like, I can't
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: even ask them right. So we're going to first address
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: what makes it hard for them to have that conversation.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: And again I'm always thinking what would make it easier,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: what would make it easier, and so oh yeah, for
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: just having a nice time driving together, and I can
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: just gently ask, right, like, hey, I've noticed, what do
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you think? Yeah, that goes a lot better than hey,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: we got to sit down and talk about this right,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: you know. Again, the gain will feel very often blindsided,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: and that's in the immediate like I'm in trouble and
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I can't yeah. And that's again the real framework shift
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: is that we want to see these kids, not as
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I won't right, Like what we're hearing is no, I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: won't do that, No I won't have the conversation. You
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: can't make me right. But what I really hear is
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I can't right. I'm feeling overwhelmed. This is going too fast,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: It's too much, right, I need us to slow down.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I need more space. And so I always thinking about
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: particularly with these kids, but it works with anyone, Like
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: how can we slow this down? How can we create
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: more space less pressure? Yeah, and so we have to
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: again just slow it down.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And it's not patronizing. I think a lot
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: of times we fear if we do that, especially with
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: older kids teenagers, that they're going to feel like we're
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: babing them. But we're not really talking about like shifting
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: how we speak to them in a sense, We're just
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: giving more space for them to think and respond. Yes,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: we're slowing down what we're saying, We're slowing down what
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: we're asking for. Right, So maybe I don't need you
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: to do three chores right now in one breath. I'm
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: going to ask for the first step of one, right, Yes,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what you were talking about when
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: you said slice it thinner and thinner is like, how
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: how much can we backap? Sort of?
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, I say a relationship is a living laboratory, right,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And if we go in as scientists and sort of
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: have this hypothesis that maybe slower is better, maybe giving
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: more options, maybe really asking what's hard about meeting this
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: expectation that I have, maybe then it will go better,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: and then I just try right, and then I still
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: have the kid, right. My son is now twenty one,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: but as you know, still has a PDA profile. And
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: what I would notice is again that conversations went better
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: in the car than if I was going into this
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: room and saying, hey, remember you were supposed to do
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: that thing, right. It went much better if I was
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: in the car and saying, hey, I've noticed you've had
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: a hard time doing this thing. What's hard about that?
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And then what also helped was me sharing my concern
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: because again, human beings. What I said about we're attachment creatures,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: were tribal creatures, right, we want to get along, we
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: want to be in a community, and as human beings,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: we're very compassionate. We really do care about the people
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: who are in our lives. And again I hear over
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and over again it seems like he doesn't care at all,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, Nope, that's just the nervous system. Say no,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: he really does care, And how do we create the
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: conditions for that care to come through? Now? Having said that,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I think compassion is absolutely innate, that we do care
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: about people, don't. I think empathy is a skill that
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: ability to take the perspective of another person and really
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: understand their experience. That takes practice, because again that's a
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: higher level like prefrontal cortech skill to again take on
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: the perspective and understand someone. But how would they understand
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: how would they develop empathy one if they hadn't experienced
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: it themselves, if they hadn't experienced their PA, parents and
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: their caregivers, their teachers as empathetic as saying hey, I
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: can see something as hard for you, and I want
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to understand and I want to help you solve this problem.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: So when you start modeling empathy to your kids, that's
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: when I see them learn it very quickly and then
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: reflect it back to you. So again in this problem
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: solving model, this collaborative and proactive solutions model that doctor
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Green developed, that's why step one is the empathy step.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: It's again trying to understand your child's perspective, what's making
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: it hard for them. But then step two is you
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: getting to share your concern about why this is hard
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: for you. And again PDA kids respond really well to this.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: I mean again, all human beings do, and so This
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: is where we get to highlight like PDA kids are
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: human beings who care about others, but it makes more
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: sense to them almost than other kids because PDA kids,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: again I think, have a it's the autonomy piece, but
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: it's also a justice piece, like they really again if
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: it seems unfair to them, and again that's what I
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: would say, where they don't feel like they have the
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: autonomy to choose and make a decision that impacts them,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: so they're very interested to hear how their actions actually
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: impact others. And I can't tell you the number of
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: times I've talked to these PDA kids with their parents
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and then really saying, oh, I didn't know that when
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I didn't do the chore that it meant that you
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: were doing it, and yeah, that's not fair, right, And
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: so yeah, I'm now more interested in being involved in
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: a solution that means it's easier for me to do
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: it because I really don't want you to have to
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: do it. And that's what we miss again when we
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: kind of get into these power struggles, right, which I
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: call is you know, struggles like dueling solutions like the
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: parents saying you have to and basically the kid's solution
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: is like, no, I don't, right, and so now, how
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: if we back it up again and slow it down,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: we'll see these kids really do want to be included
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: in the decisions, but also understand how their actions are
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: impacting the people they care about.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you're in a collaborative family or when
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: you're in kind of this classroom culture at school that's
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: more collaborative, everybody just feels better. Everyone feels like they matter,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: everyone feels seen and heard and understood. That makes a
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: world of difference for our nervous system. Yeah, of course
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: it does. Of course, it feels safe to be in
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: an environment. Yep, yep. Like it all just boils back
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: down to that nervous system. Everything it always does.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: There's I mean, every time, without exception, if we're having
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: a concerning behavior, there's a nervous system that is under stress,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: and so we have to become call it stress detectives.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: We need to just again see the behaviors communication almost
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: like the smoke, Like there's a fire somewhere, I'm not
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: sure right, Like if a house is filling up with smoke,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: we're not exactly sure where the fire is, and we
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: don't even know if that smoke is coming from, you know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: an actual raging inferno or a piece of burnt toast,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: But we want to get curious about it, like what
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: is causing the smoke, and then I want to address
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever's in fire on fire, and then we're
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: not going to have that smoke anymore. So again to
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: truly see the behavior's information. And again in particular with
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: these concerning behaviors, that is, it's the smoke, it's not
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: the fire. And if we just try to extinguish the smoke,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: we're still not going to address the fire. And so
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: that's why we don't want to focus on the behavior
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and extinguishing the behavior with say punishments and rewards, right,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: that's generally what people rely on because again what I
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: said in the very begin this is what we learned
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: as children. And again some children, I was one of
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: those people that I was able to respond to a
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: punishment or reward in a way that got my parents
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the teachers the result that they wanted. But these PDA kids,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: that's not even a choice, right, And so punishments and
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: rewards even seem stressful, even seem like a demand, because
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: again it's like if that would work it would, but
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: it doesn't, and so it just increases this feeling of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: unsafety that I set up to fail basically is how
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: these kids feel certainly not understood, certainly not supported and protected.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are there some ways that we can foster and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: nurture a sense of autonomy just in kind of our
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: day to day lives, like the things that were already doing.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: How do we help kids feel more and more like
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: they have autonomy?
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Well, so, again we just need to break down what
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: autonomy is. And again that's the ability to have a say,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: right to act on your own will, your own volition
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: in a way, right that impacts your life. Like whatever
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: the decision is being made, and you understand that it's
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: impacting their life, then you get really curious again about
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: making sure they have choice, right and real choices. You know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I buck up against you know very often. You know
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: it's like do you want to wear the blue shoes
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: or the brown shoes? Right, I'm giving you choice? You know,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: like you want to eat the chicken or the broccoli? Right,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I'm giving you choice. And again kid might be like,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: neither one of those options works for me, but the
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: parent thinks, well, I'm giving you a choice, and so
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: again it's really having those conversations about what would help
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you feel included, right, meaning we're honoring your autonomy in
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: these decisions that are impacting your life. And it takes
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: time and energy to have those conversations. And this is
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: a and where I've heard doctor Green say choose your
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: heart because again it's it's hard to find the time
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: and the energy to have these conversations with kids, including
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: them and the decisions that impact their lives. But it's
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: also really hard to manage the crises that result when
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: we don't include them in the decisions that impact their lives.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: So again, choose your heart, right, Like, make the time
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: and the energy to have those conversations, or make the
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: time and energy to manage the explosions as a result
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: of not having those conversations.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I call it front loading sometimes, like if you
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: do more now, there's more work in the beginning, but
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: it's going to give you time and energy and sanity
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: back on the other side. Right, Sometimes we have to
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: really push to be able to create the space to
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: do it ahead of time, but we're going to get
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: it back later.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like what I said about the living laboratory,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: like if we were to switch the you know, the
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: hypothesis from Oh, if I just impose enough structure, enough
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: punishments and rewards, then I'll get the behavior I want.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Just kind of look at it, like is that working
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: for you? Are you actually getting the outcome? If you
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: were a real scientist, you wouldn't keep doing the thing
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that didn't get you the outcome you wanted. You would
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: actually change, right, It's called the independent variable. You would
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: change that which you were doing to get that dependent
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: variable to get that outcome that you want. So again
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I'm just like keep you know, like keep trying. But again,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: that takes a lot of energy to parents who are
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: already spread so thin. So that gets back to again
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: what I was saying earlier. Can parents have so much
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: compassion for themselves about how much they're caring and how
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: there's so little time, so little energy, so little support
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: in our society for these parents to do this really
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: hard work and when we can say no, it doesn't
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: you know, at least that meets our experience. I think
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: when we give parents the message that they should be
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: doing better when they're doing the best they can, that's
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: very destructive, right of course, that would contribute to their
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: own nervous system over whileman collapse. But if we can
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: even say, hey, I see you're working so hard. I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: know we're not getting the outcomes that you want, and
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. Really we're all really spread so thin.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think even that is like, Okay, that's real.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: You know, that's really in my experience and there's something
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: that you know it's again we can see in the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: brain with these fMRI studies, when we just name someone's experience,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: whether it's a child or a parent, they can relax
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a little bit more. And the more we can be relaxed,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: the more that frees up that prefrontal cortex to find
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: a solution.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: There's so much more here to unpack. I know we're
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: already running out of time. So is there anything else
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: that you want parents or educators who are listening to
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: know specific to PDA or parenting NERD vergent kids.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think if I were to leave people with
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: one thing, it's to really develop again I call the
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: stress detective or the scientist, but it really boils down
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: to curiosity, right again, to be curious about your own experience, Like,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: what's making this hard for me when my child is
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: showing these concerning behaviors and then kind of care for
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: that the best way that you can. But then turn
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: that lens again. We naturally turn it to the kids
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: so much, but I think it's kind of putting that
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: oxygen mask on ourselves before we help the child. But
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: curiosity and compassion are really key. And if we can
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: just keep leaning into that over and over again for ourselves,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: for our child, we're going to get through it. You know.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: It's just it's a lot, but we're going to get
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: through it. And that's what I want is to really
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: send this message of we can figure this out together.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you really will get through it. Like
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I'm living proof that you will get through. I Mean,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: there were so many days where I thought, oh I can't.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I just can't do one more I just can't do
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: one more day and one more hour, you know, And
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: then I turn around and I'm like, Oh, my kid's
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: an adult and things are so much easier, and how
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: did this happen? You know, But it does happen. We
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: do get it does happen the same.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Right. My son is now twenty one, and again he
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: is so much more likely because I will more often
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: default to that nervous system overwhelmed, because again that was
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: my default, that's what I learned from my parents. But he,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: having been introduced to this model, this new way of
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: doing things from an earlier age, he defaults more to
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the compassion and curiosity for me, Like, what's hard, mom,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Do you want to do the sotions thing? Let's figure
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: it out together. So again, it's worth it. It's worth
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: it to put in in the front end, and you
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: will benefit in your child of benefit on the back end,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let everybody know where they can find you online
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: or social media. Yes, I'll link it up in the
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: show notes as well, but great and tell everyone who's listening.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, I again Ashelfamilycounseling dot com is the best place.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: We have so many resources, so many free resources. One
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: that I think you'll make available to your listeners. I
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: call it defiance decoder. So it's really looking at all
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: of those behaviors and all the things our kids say
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: and then kind decoding it, translating it so that we
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: can understand it better. Because in the moment of the overwhelm,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: we're also feeling overwhelmed. So I think if folks just
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: make it to Ashevillefamilycounting dot com. They're going to find
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: all of these free resources that I hope they find
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: very helpful.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here, for sharing some
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: of your personal experiences and your wisdom and your time
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: with us. I know it's valuable, and I know everyone
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: listening has learned at least one night that they can
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: take with them and create some positive change. So I
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: appreciate you.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate you in your
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: community so much as an honor to be here. And
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: take care.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care. I see you.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: share it with someone who needs it and leave a
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: quick review so others can find this support too. When
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: regulated kids dot com