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When Ideologies Attack: A Prophetic Wake-Up Call · Rethink Revive with David Leake

• 0:00
  Dave Leake: This may be the most confusing time it's ever been to be a Christian when it comes to discerning what is actually good or what's evil. There are all kinds of perspectives and ideologies and worldviews that people all say, this is the gospel. This is what it means to follow Jesus. But not all of them are. That's why this whole issue is confusing, and if you would like to hear more about how we can guard ourselves and discern and sift our way through right and wrong, truth and falsehoods, this is the perfect episode for you, so go ahead and tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have culture creating conversations. My name is
• 0:40
  Jeff Leake: Dave. My name is Jeff, and we want to welcome you to the episode today. Of course, we're both father and son. We're on staff at Allison Park church.
• 0:45
  Jeff Leake: I'm the lead pastor here. Dave is the North Side campus pastor at least for another two months, and then he is shifting to plant a church in Jacksonville. And we probably should say, because some people have asked, so what happens to the podcast when Dave moves to Florida? And the answer is, we're gonna keep it going.
• 1:03
  Jeff Leake: Number one, we don't know how we're gonna keep it going yet.
• 1:09
  Jeff Leake: It might be some some in studio stuff. It might be some stuff that we'll do in some kind of a it's not hard to zoom. We'll figure it out world way and but no, and we're appreciative the fact that so many people are concerned about that. Actually, I just got out of a conversation with several staff, and they said, when we heard Dave was going to Florida, our first, our first or second thought was, what's gonna
• 1:33
  Dave Leake: happen to the podcast? Wow, that's been the biggest question I've got. Is there more than anything else,
• 1:39
  Jeff Leake: not? How can we give you money? Or do you need me to join your team? Amazing. I would love those to be more common.
• 1:46
  Jeff Leake: And so just for the status sake, so we're middle of July now, and probably you listen to this towards the end of the month or later. What's status update, Dave, where are we on the journey? And offer to sell our house yesterday? Okay, Wow, congratulations, yep,
• 2:02
  Dave Leake: and we're working on some of the look and feel of the brand and all that kind of stuff, yeah. So we're, I mean, we're making progress. I guess when we get a little further, we could, always, I could give a little, you know, snapshot.
• 2:16
  Jeff Leake: Maybe in every episode, we'll give people status reports, that way they can track along with us.
• 2:20
  Dave Leake: Sure, yeah, but if you'd like to give towards it, we're calling it salt church.
• 2:22
  Dave Leake: And salt church has a Kingdom Builder a little on the Allison
• 2:29
  Jeff Leake: Park church website.
• 2:29
  Jeff Leake: If you you go to the give spot, there's a drop down menu, and there's actually several church plants. So actually, the great news, I should probably add this in before we dive into our topic. So one of the things we've been doing over a lot of years is parenting churches, and that's what we're gonna do with Dave's church in Jacksonville with salt church. But actually we have four church planning projects for 2026 and so two in Pittsburgh, one in New York City, one in Jacksonville, Florida. All of them should be on that drop down menu that you can give toward and we're pumped about that.
• 3:03
  Dave Leake: So, you know, I'll just, can I just give my quick little spiel about what salt is?
• 3:06
  Dave Leake: Because I like, people are like, Oh, it's because you're by the beach. I'm like, not really.
• 3:12
  Dave Leake: There's a, there's a passage in numbers 18. It's in this it's shortly after the Exodus from Egypt, where God is sort of giving the terms of the covenant to his people, and they start dividing out the portions of land and the promised land that each of the 12 Tribes of Israel is going to get now that they've left Egypt. And in numbers 18, God is talking specifically to Moses, brother Aaron and his descendants, the priestly tribe, and he says, you know, you're not going to get land the way that everybody else is going to get it, you know, instead, I'm going to be your inheritance and your portion. And he says, we're going to establish a covenant of salt between, you know, me and you and your descendants forever.
• 3:54
  Jeff Leake: What is, what is the, what's the salt part of it?
• 3:57
  Jeff Leake: I don't think I know that.
• 3:58
  Dave Leake: What's the salt part? What's covenant of salt?
• 4:00
  Dave Leake: Yeah, what is that? So scholars and theologians think the idea of why it's salt is that describe several things. One thing is permanence, or preservation, is what I mean, sorry, preservation. Salt preserves. It's also it describes, sort of, the precious nature of the relationship and purity. Salt keeps things
• 4:19
  Jeff Leake: pure because salt was a way of actually a money exchange. It was so valuable,
• 4:24
  Dave Leake: right? Yeah, yeah, purity. So, yeah. So the idea for salt, I was pulling all my stuff up because I'm trying to get my language together. We're calling it salt, because in the Bible, salt is a symbol of God's faithful promise that he himself is our portion. And so the idea is, in a world where we're chasing more we believe that what we need most is not more stuff, it's more of His presence. Good. So very excited to launch us all that'll be happening.
• 4:50
  Jeff Leake: For those of you who grew up in your generation, you could actually add the P at the front and the Y, called it salty church, and have the songbook
• 4:58
  Dave Leake: paint ourselves blue. I. Yeah, all right, we'll move on from that. So let's, let's get into the episode today. Oh, I guess we should do gratitude first. Yes, go ahead, no new shout outs today to give to anybody left a five star review. You always can get yours if you'd like to go to Apple podcasts, leave us five star review, and it'll give us your name. But we always just want to take a second to give thanks.
• 5:18
  Dave Leake: Excuse me. To those that have been listeners for a while.
• 5:21
  Dave Leake: Thank you for being a part of the show. And if you're new to us, welcome. Glad you're glad you're listening. Today, today, we are going to be talking about a series of blog posts you've written over the sort of late spring and into early summer that are all about clarifying and protecting relationships, but the church in general and sort of sorting through the chaos of the political, social landscape that we live in today.
• 5:50
  Dave Leake: And so one of the blog posts you wrote was called, was it called a prophetic wake up call? Am I getting that right?
• 5:56
  Jeff Leake: So the title was, when ideologies attack a prophetic wake up call, which?
• 6:01
  Jeff Leake: Which? As we were getting ready for the show, you said that right now, prophetic wake Wake Up Call is an overused phrase,
• 6:11
  Dave Leake: no, no. I didn't mean it like that,
• 6:13
  Jeff Leake: like me. I didn't mean to
• 6:15
  Dave Leake: like that. I just mean. I feel like, yeah, here we go. An ideologist attack a prophetic wake up call. I just mean a prophetic wake up call. I feel like that's been the gong,
• 6:23
  Jeff Leake: yeah, hundreds. So the reason so, and I probably have described this multiple times on the podcast, but I started to feel in late spring of this year, this burning desire to write this series of blog posts. There's seven of them now, and you can find them at Allison Park leadership network.com go to the very bottom of the homepage, and it's there anyway, because I had been talking with multiple spiritual leaders about either their personal struggle over some things that were happening because of What they were walking through in their church because of these collision of worldviews that are happening now and the polarization in society, and then it's just been five years of this. I mean, a lot of the stuff we talk about on this podcast has been about worldviews and ideologies and political tensions and polarizations, but for whatever reason, it just started to crystallize for me, and I've just felt like I, I felt almost a compulsion to write this down like so these seven posts are, you know, really we kind of working out my own thought processes and and clarifying it down to the detail. Anyway, the prophetic wake up call part comes from a prophetic dream that I had in 2020 that kind of sets up the discussion of why I call it when ideologies
• 7:47
  Dave Leake: attack, yeah, and you found
• 7:50
  Jeff Leake: so it's not like a prophetic wake up call. I'm prophesying to the generations that something specific is coming. It was a prophetic wake up call for me during 2020 when I when I had a dream that I knew was from the Holy Spirit. Yeah,
• 8:03
  Dave Leake: okay, so, so we'll get to those. You wrote seven, and none of these seven probably are that new to things we're
• 8:08
  Jeff Leake: discussing. No, no, we probably, we may have done a slice of conversations about each one of these, although a couple of them we haven't. Yeah, we need to, and we need to. Yes,
• 8:18
  Dave Leake: that's great. So we'll get into those before we do though, I think a good starting point like so you sort of throughout these seven. And by the way, if people want to access this, they can go to the Allison Park leadership network.com, yep. And they can find the blog and sort of go back. And I think in what was it would have been May. Was no April. April 22 was the first post of the series of seven that you did. So you can go through and read these, I would encourage you to do so. They're really good and they're very clear, but you sort of have a few different angles. Some of them are how we build bridges, how we build relationships.
• 8:57
  Dave Leake: There's different ways that we can interact with the world in a positive way. You broke down scripture and some of the commands and prescriptions that Jesus gives us as a church to navigate and wade through some of the waters we're in today.
• 9:10
  Dave Leake: But you also strove. Strove, strived. I'm not sure what the word is to give clarity on issues that tend to be muddy, and you know, part of that, I think you talked in one of your posts how there's a lot of pressure to thread the needle with exact language, or else you risk a lot of attack and pushback. And so you just were sort of like, let's just get it clear and let's talk about all of this, which I think is great.
• 9:36
  Dave Leake: Think it's part of the goal of the podcast as well that we're doing. So here's where I want to start. Though you talked about different relationships, different levels that we as church leaders or as Christians can interact and partner with people you started with sort of the idea of the multi faith network. So can you go through this? Yeah,
• 9:56
  Jeff Leake: so there's four ways that I think we as believe.
• 10:00
  Jeff Leake: Believers in Jesus Christ, followers of Christ can engage to make the world a better place. Okay, the very first one is what I will call bridge building activities. Bridge building activities is where you seek to build a bridge with people that you have a difference of opinion upon. So again, one of the initiatives I'm actively involved with is multi faith neighbors network, which helps evangelical pastors, Jewish rabbis and Muslim Imams to build friendships and to work for peace in their city and religious freedom around the world. I'm never going to come to a theological agreement with an Imam, sure, or a rabbi, but I don't have to be in agreement with them, on on, on politics or theology to work with them on things we all agree on, which is that people should have religious freedom and we should be working for the peace and prosperity of our area, right?
• 10:53
  Jeff Leake: So bridge building activities are do not require unanimity or uniformity of thought, they just require that we have some common ground that we're working towards a similar goal. Yeah, similar goal,
• 11:09
  Dave Leake: by the way. What are some of the goals that the multi faith network has?
• 11:12
  Jeff Leake: Yeah? So, um, well, do good in your city. So, like, one of the things we did in 2020 was we provided food for Afghan refuge refugees that were moving into the region, because the you know, there was the exit from Afghanistan that happened and people were fleeing. Okay, so, so it's doing good in your city whenever there are issues that arise, speaking up for one another, like, for instance, speaking up for the Jewish community right now, because they're often the victims of anti semitism, right so there would have been some times in our history where Muslims in our area would have been victims of attack because of some of the tensions that were going on in the world due to the Middle East crisis. So it's and then around the world, there's a lot of times, Christians who are in other countries that are being persecuted for their faith, and so multi faith navals network works to protect people's religious practices in hostile places all over the world. So it's a good thing. So bridge building activities is one of those things. Second thing that we can engage to change the world with is what was number two, it was cause based advocacy, right? This is where you you adopt a cause something that needs to change in our world. So we need to see, okay, so cause specific, at cause specific, yeah, so these, these has to do with especially the four social issues that we talk about. Like to speak up against racial racial inequities or racial injustice, to stand for the protection of the unborn.
• 12:49
  Jeff Leake: There are to provide a way for moms who are pregnant and wanting to choose life to have an option to do so. It's, it's, it's where you adapt an issue you feel passionate about, and you work for that cause. Now, when you work for a cause, you may or may not be creating unity, right? In fact, probably because you're going to be pushing for that particular issue, they're going to be a lot of people unhappy with you, but you are working for that, because that is the aim of your organization, or your moment, right? To advocate for a cause, okay? The third, the third way to make change is political activism, right? This is where you get involved in the political sphere because you want to see a policy change, or you want to see a shift in some law or approach. And a lot of times, I think, especially on this podcast, Dave, we have almost, in some ways, played down political activism, like, like, it's almost evil or wrong for the church to get involved.
• 13:56
  Jeff Leake: But technically, being a political leader is not a bad thing, no right being partisan and polarizing is a bad thing, but being a person involved in politics trying to lead in your city or in your state,
• 14:11
  Dave Leake: we actually need that. Yeah, it's desperate like for the for the record, I don't think that that the goal has been to say political activism is wrong. I think compromising Christian, like Christian purity, or, you know, stances, I guess, like biblical worldview stances, for the sake of politics, is not good.
• 14:32
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, right. So on both sides of the political equation, there's a there's a tendency to want to redefine Christianity into that particular party's agenda, and that's where it becomes bad. But okay, an example Pastor Chris Griffin, who was one of our campus pastors for years, has now shifted. He's no longer on our staff as a pastor, he still does pastoral things. He preaches and teaches around the region, but he works for a company that serves churches in their financial. School you know, bookkeeping needs Cheney and Associates. Anyway, Chris is now running for school board, yeah, right, in the pine Richland School District, because he wants to make a difference in his school system, advocate for things that are important to Christian families, as well as to try to improve the whole school school system to make it good for all kids, right? Yeah, so that he was a pastor, now he's a politician, and he weren't running for office like a good thing, right?
• 15:28
  Jeff Leake: But obviously, once you identify with a particular party and point of view that also isn't always a unifying activity, but it's an important activity, right? Okay, then the fourth way of making change is what I'll call Christian leadership. This is in the church. This is protecting the church. This is making sure the church stays on track, teaches the right doctrines. This is makes making sure that we don't give in to syncretism, which is the mixing of things that don't really belong with Christianity.
• 16:00
  Jeff Leake: Because sometimes in the push for social change, there's a desire to adopt ideologies that don't come from the Bible, and to sanctify them and make them holy, as if they're the tools that God's going to use to make the world a better place. And when that happens, toxicity enters the church, and oftentimes we end up going in directions Jesus never intended for us
• 16:22
  Dave Leake: to try. Yeah? And we'll talk about some of those different things that have made their way into
• 16:27
  Jeff Leake: into the church.
• 16:27
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. So, so this, this is confusing in a way, because as a spiritual leader, I want to build bridges with people I don't want don't agree with, right, right? I want to advocate for causes that are important to me and to into you know, as the scripture teaches a follower of Jesus should hold certain values, I want to be supportive of someone like Chris Griffin, who's involved in politics. And I also want to protect the house, yeah, to make sure that, as I'm being a pastor, I'm not allowing anything in the house of God that doesn't align with God's word, and I'm staying true to the mission and to the teachings of Jesus in the house.
• 17:08
  Jeff Leake: So we, from the house, influence the world, but when we're in the house, we have to make sure that we stay on track in terms of our myth, mission, values and our belief system. And as a pastor, part of my job is to protect the sheep from dangerous predators that would try to consume or destroy them. Yeah, and, and so this is this multi level kind of leadership that is difficult to know. You know what hat you have on and what sphere you're in and when you're supposed to be doing the things you're doing. And I think it's part of what makes leading in this era so complex.
• 17:44
  Jeff Leake: And I hope we didn't lose you with all of that. Again, you can go back and read the full blog, blog post, maybe it will make sense to you, but I'll say of the four, my primary job is not to be involved in politics, advocate for causes or build bridges. My primary cause is to be your pastor, yeah, you know.
• 18:03
  Jeff Leake: And to protect and to protect your soul. You talked about protecting,
• 18:07
  Dave Leake: which I think is good. But the interesting thing, and I guess I'm not sure where this is gonna lead us, but I'll just start to dip into this. The interesting thing about it's not just protecting, but it's being careful about who we associate with. There's all in the house, yeah, there's all kinds of New Testament scriptures that talk about Don't be unequally yoked, not well that and not just that.
• 18:31
  Dave Leake: I mean, you know, with Matthew 18, for example, when it talks about how we handle conflict, if somebody is unrepentant within the conflict they're causing.
• 18:43
  Dave Leake: It's saying, the end of it says, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector or in First Corinthians five, you know, Paul literally says, don't associate with anybody who claims to be a Christian but is sexually immoral, greedy, an adulterous, slanderer, a drunkard, a swindler. Do not even eat with such people. Expel the wicked person from among you. I mean, that's crazy.
• 19:06
  Jeff Leake: So this is actually a bit counter culture to one of the core values of our current generation. Maybe, maybe I should say two of the core values, that's tolerance and inclusivity. Yeah, right, well, but to be a healthy church.
• 19:22
  Jeff Leake: There are some things you can't tolerate and there's some things that can't be included. That's right, actually, not just things some people right can't be included if you're going to truly be a holy house of God, people who are unrepentant or who are a wolf. I say that right Wolf, Wolf, I would say this wrong wolves, wolf in sheep's clothing are not to be tolerated, actually. So there are some people who are have a hostile intent for the house of God, or are living a compromised life. You look at Jesus when He shows up in Revelation and he is. Is giving his messages to John, to the seven churches. He talks about this woman named Jezebel, right, right, not.
• 20:08
  Jeff Leake: That's not her name. He uses a term from the Old Testament, Jezebel, and says, you know, don't associate with her, because her she is leading people to sin, yeah. So this is, this is almost feels wrong to people to think, you mean, we're not 100% inclusive. Well, we aren't, neither is God. There are some things that you don't some doctrines you don't tolerate, there's practices you don't tolerate, there's leaders you don't tolerate.
• 20:36
  Dave Leake: Yeah, it's sort of a holy intolerance. It is. It's okay. It's not just, by the way, it's not just a little bit in Scripture. It's a lot in Scripture. Sure, can I, like, just go through some things.
• 20:45
  Dave Leake: I'll just, I'll stick the New Testament. All right, just New Testament. So I read first, Corinthians, five, Titus, Titus 310, and 11. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time after that, have nothing to do with them. You must. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful.
• 21:03
  Dave Leake: They are self condemned. That's Titus Second Thessalonians, 314, and 15 take special note of anyone who does not obey. Obey our instruction these letters.
• 21:13
  Dave Leake: Do not associate with them in order that they may feel ashamed. You do not yet. Do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them, as you would a fellow believer, like it's this idea of separation that hopefully leads to redemption. Galatians 61 talks about, actually, restoration for these kinds of people, brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you, who live by the Spirit, should restore that person gently, but watch yourself, or you may also be tempted. And then First Timothy, 520 but those elders who are sinning, those elders who are sinning, you are to approve before everyone. That means, like, rebuke publicly, so that others may take warning.
• 21:54
  Dave Leake: There's like, there's very clearly, this isn't even an exhaustive or
• 21:58
  Jeff Leake: Ananias and Sapphira, we did an episode on that before were struck down because they were being dishonest. In the presence of God, there lied the Holy Spirit.
• 22:06
  Jeff Leake: There was there's the passage, I think, First Corinthians five or six, where a man was sleeping with his stepmom and is is Paul disfellowships him from the church because of his his behavior, and warns the church that they're tolerating something they shouldn't be tolerating. So, yeah. So again, two things can be true at the same time. We want to build bridges with people who are not like us, and we want to protect the house of God, right? What happens in the house and outside the house are two different things, and as spiritual leaders, we have to know what our assignment is outside of the house of God and how we interact with the world around us, and what our assignment is for the house of God, which is to not tolerate anything Jesus wouldn't tolerate, right? And not include anyone Jesus wouldn't include. I
• 22:51
  Dave Leake: think you know, there's a lot of scriptures that talk about living in peace and with a good reputation, like we should be loving and and making peace with those that are around us, but tolerance, at least within a Christian body, is actually not a Christian value.
• 23:05
  Dave Leake: It is. It's actually love is actually a sin. Yes, tolerance is a sin if you allow things to be like accepted and normalized for the sake of love, that's not really loving. It's just, honestly, can be cowardly, which is,
• 23:22
  Jeff Leake: which is okay. Now, this, this, this episode today sort of weaves in a lot of our themes from the past couple of years. I mean, I still listen often to little clips from Philip Anthony Mitchell, who is this pastor from Atlanta, Georgia, who preaches the paint off the walls, I mean, and like, he is so brokenhearted about things, but he does not play with anything that the Bible calls sin, yeah, and he calls it out repeatedly. And something inspiring to me about that, because he's purifying the church in his efforts to preach that way. I want to be that kind of spiritual leader too, a bridge builder outside, but a pastor who's protecting and purifying through the way that I teach the scriptures and lead people to follow Jesus, right?
• 24:11
  Jeff Leake: And that's a that's a hard thing for pastors to get, and it's a hard thing for people church people to get, because if you go preaching at the world the things they're wrong about, that is not the right application to intolerance. That's where you get a bad reputation with the world. Because our job is not to correct the world, it's to correct the house of God. So we're not to go around telling the world where it's wrong.
• 24:37
  Jeff Leake: Well, of course, the world's wrong. They're not a right relationship with Jesus like, of course, they don't have the right theology. They haven't entered into a relationship with God through Christ. They're not walking according to the standards of the Scripture. Of course, they're going to be there's going to be differences, but for those who call themselves Christians, those that want to be a part of the family of God, those that are going to teach and preach in in the context. East of of God's house, there has to be certain things that we tolerate and don't tolerate. And there's some things that we include and don't include, because there's a there's a separate agenda in the house of God. Yeah, then there is in the way that we interact with the world around so
• 25:14
  Dave Leake: let me dig into here just for a second, because I think once we go into ideologies, it will, it will be a different can of worms, but like when it comes to what we tolerate in a church, I think this is kind of a key point. I think we're talking about what a church family is okay with accepting that there's a level of this versus, let me just try a different way, and you can help correct me. I think we're not talking about people that are trying to live for God, that are sometimes falling into sin, or that are struggling, oh no, this is not strugglers. We're talking about people that are sort of openly choosing to do something combative, combative, or that's just rebellious. It's like, it's like, you know what, I believe in God, but doesn't God's grace cover this? Like, isn't this? I mean, what? God's gonna forgive me? Like, just a real, direct example, the Scripture talks really clearly about, you know, sex before marriage. So there's a lot of people that want to live together with a girlfriend or boyfriend, or, you know, just not follow God's restrictions on sex before marriage, if, as a church, we get really chill about that, and it's just like you can kind of do whatever you want to do. What we're doing is tolerating open sin. It's not it's not struggling,
• 26:35
  Jeff Leake: okay, let me clarify a little bit. Please help. Okay, so someone who shows up living together becomes aware of the fact that it's wrong and is moving towards making that right by getting married. That is a good thing, right? Someone that shows up living together says, I understand what the Word teaches. I reject that. In fact, I'm going to give voice to the fact that I don't actually think that this is a big deal and that we should soften our stance on the standards of Christian sexuality. That person is now leading people away from the truth of the Scripture, and that can't be tolerated even,
• 27:14
  Dave Leake: even just I understand that this is wrong according to what the Word of God says, but I'm not going to do that right now, because I'm just not there. Yeah,
• 27:23
  Jeff Leake: so I don't know that that's an intolerance thing. I think that's a loving confrontation, okay, between drawing a hard line, no doubt.
• 27:28
  Jeff Leake: So, so as a pastor, this is what pastors do, right? So if someone's like, let's take it out of the sex before marriage thing, and they're involved in any kind of compromising activity, they're not paying their taxes on something, right?
• 27:39
  Jeff Leake: Like they're making money under the table. And I find out that that is doesn't really line up with Christian integrity. The conversation is going to be like, Hey, listen, I know you got this opportunity. Can I just challenge you on this? Because I love you and I care about you, I want you to think about wouldn't it? Wouldn't it be better, right, to keep your integrity before God and expect his blessing. I think
• 28:06
  Dave Leake: he might have just opened up something that we've never talked about, by the way, which is money under the table.
• 28:11
  Dave Leake: What are you talking about?
• 28:11
  Dave Leake: That's going to be a whole different thing. You use that as if it was an obvious example.
• 28:17
  Dave Leake: But, yeah, no, maybe that would be worth talking about. Yeah, yeah. But so
• 28:21
  Jeff Leake: there's a lot of little things. Like, it shouldn't say little things.
• 28:22
  Jeff Leake: There are a lot of things that don't align with the word. But a person coming to Christ and growing in in Jesus becomes aware like, Okay, I'm still becoming aware, after all these years of following Christ, of things in my life that don't align with Jesus. And I'm being corrected constantly. When you become aware of something and and you start to become convicted about it. That's where you need a pastor to help you walk that out. And maybe you get become convicted of it, and you talked yourself out of it, like, oh, porn is not that big of a deal, okay? Like, you know, everybody looks at and you got yourself in a position of compromise, and it's affecting your soul, a good pastor will come alongside and say, bro, you got to stop like that's not healthy for you. And I believe God can give you victory. And I know you think you can't get over this, but you can, like a good pastor is protective in that they are walking somebody through steps to get free from some things, or to come to maybe a more mature perspective on things as they become more aware of what God expects for them through the teaching of God's Word. There's a difference between that. And I know what I'm supposed to do, and I refuse to do it, and I'm and I'm going to sort of dig in here, and I'm going to, not only, you know, step out of God's covering, because I'm not surrendered to His purpose anymore. I'm going to try to lead other people to do the same, sure, sure. That's the that's the furthest, that's where you confront, that's where you say, that's not, you know,
• 29:48
  Dave Leake: absolutely, yeah. I think what the distinction I'm trying to make is, I think one of the things that is really damaging to Christians, not just to church leaders, but to Christians in general. Is sometimes the mistaken belief that, well, if I believe in God and I've prayed a prayer, I can kind of live how I want, without surrendering. We've talked about this a lot, but, and whereas, you know, the Bible is really clear on, don't allow this kind of stuff and or like tolerance.
• 30:15
  Dave Leake: And in the case of it's not when I'm talking about struggling with sin, but just, yeah, I'm not going to do this even that is not a tolerable, tolerable type of practice. So privately confronting, yes, we're not talking about publicly blasting somebody like, hey, there's sin.
• 30:30
  Dave Leake: They're not fixing it right now.
• 30:33
  Dave Leake: Let's just get up on stage and absolutely say, here's a list of people on their sins. It's not that okay.
• 30:39
  Jeff Leake: But there are, there are things that are more loving, pastoral conversations, that are hard conversations, yes, and then the Philip, Anthony Mitchell, I'm calling this out because this is a trend yes in our in our society, and it's entered the church as a worldview and thought process.
• 30:56
  Jeff Leake: And it has to be called out because some of you have given into this, and you have got to repent. That's, that's, I guess, the spectrum of things. That's
• 31:04
  Dave Leake: what I mean, yeah, and I'm all I'm trying to say is some ideology, some beliefs, some trends, actually, are totally opposite of what the Bible says and what the Gospel says, and they have to be called out. We have to call those out.
• 31:18
  Dave Leake: But I'm saying, and I think that's
• 31:20
  Jeff Leake: probably a good distinction the way you're saying it. Here's what I mean, not so much calling out people, right, calling out trends. We're not so much calling out individuals and saying You are wrong. We're calling out belief systems and compromises and
• 31:33
  Dave Leake: practices. Yeah, but individually like we should not just pastors like Christians together, we should be holding each other, like, to certain standards, yeah, yeah. Not, not to earn salvation, but because we are, like, there, you know, like, if you want to be in relationship with God, don't let this destroy you, yeah, you know. So anyway, we
• 31:55
  Jeff Leake: start to get into ideologies. Now we're into a different category. Now we're not so much talking about compromises and trends in society and belief systems that are not aligned with scripture.
• 32:07
  Jeff Leake: Now we're talking about what we would call polarization ideologies that have entered the church world as as the adopted solutions for a broken world and the and what I and what I feel real passionate about, is that there are some ideologies that are present in our world that don't align at all with the gospel and are dividers. They take us way off track, and they actually aren't solutions for the world anyway, and in the house of God, I think we have to get back to the core idea, which is that the gospel of Jesus is the thing that changes everything. Yeah, so, but that sort of, I guess, turns us a little in that direction, yeah.
• 32:58
  Jeff Leake: Well, I know that we have a lot to cover if we're gonna hit the ideologies.
• 33:02
  Dave Leake: Well, let's do the ideologies of one second. I just wanna make sure we fully, you know, dust off this part we're on. Now, I've actually been curious about this anyway, so, you know, like, you wrote one post about, like, being careful, like, you know, don't judge, or else you'll be judged. But then, obviously, there's other scriptures that talk about not just discerning, but also, you know, judging within the house of God, meaning like helping.
• 33:26
  Dave Leake: Well, yeah, so
• 33:29
  Jeff Leake: so that it's, it's a funny thing. I never really saw Matthew Chapter Seven this way.
• 33:33
  Jeff Leake: This is the final chapter in Jesus. Three chapter Sermon on the Mount. Matthew chapter seven. Jesus starts with a heavy challenge to not be judgmental, right? Don't judge. You'll be judged with the measure you use will be measured back to you, yeah. Then he talks about, you know, don't say you have a, you know, a speck in your eye when you have to your brother, whenever you have a log on your own. Like, so you think Jesus is sort of starting up by saying, don't judge, don't judge, don't judge. And then the rest of the chapter is all about evaluating things. Like, the very next section, he says, Don't throw your pearls before swine. Like, what? Like, what are you saying?
• 34:14
  Jeff Leake: Like, that seems like maybe the most judgmental statement, but he's actually saying, distinguish, discern what pigs can appreciate. Don't give them pearls. They'll never appreciate that. You got to know who you're talking to destroy the pearls.
• 34:29
  Jeff Leake: They'll destroy them, right? So you got to be discerning. And then the rest of Chapter Seven is all him laying out how to discern those types of influences that are healthy and unhealthy. So he says, don't judge. Don't judge. And then, man, make sure you do discern, because you don't want to just shut your mind off to dangers that are out there. You got to discern what could be potentially hostile toward your soul. And he and in that chapter, he warns about you.
• 34:57
  Jeff Leake: Some people are. They look like sheep, but they're actually wolves. Okay, that's wolves.
• 35:04
  Jeff Leake: Wolves. Let me, let me,
• 35:06
  Dave Leake: let me. Hone in a little bit. So I think there's a view within a lot of Christian circles, maybe even, maybe it even is the right view, but it's a view that I think I can express, and it's sort of like each person is accountable to God by themselves, and we all have sin, so be careful not to call out people too much, whether you're a pastor or you're just a Christian, because we don't want to be judged that way. And then it's also sort of this idea of, if we do that, we're going to become one of those super judgy churches where people walk in and they feel unloved, and isn't it somebody else's personal issue anyway.
• 35:38
  Dave Leake: But as we've been kind of discussing, like I mentioned this one before, first, Corinthians, 512, and 13, Paul says, What business is it of mine to judge those outside of the church? And he says, Are you not to judge Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you.
• 35:59
  Dave Leake: He's like you definitely should be judging those inside. We're talking about tolerance and intolerance. We're talking about ideologies before we just get to public ideologies. How do we privately, not just as pastors, but as Christians? How do we it's not just keeping a standard of holiness. It's sharpening other people. It's restoring them. It's, yeah, the word judge
• 36:22
  Jeff Leake: kind of is used in so many different ways that I think it's important that we, that we make this really
• 36:29
  Dave Leake: clear. That's why I'm asking this question. So
• 36:33
  Jeff Leake: judgmental is never good, right? Judgmental is a tone, it's an attitude, it's a superiority, it's, I'm looking down at you and you don't measure up to my standard.
• 36:44
  Jeff Leake: Judgmental is bad, discerning is good, discerning is this is wise or unwise. This is good or bad, this is healthy or unhealthy.
• 36:54
  Jeff Leake: And it helps to identify things through discernment that are having a negative or positive effect on a person's life or on a church's situation,
• 37:06
  Dave Leake: but also whether something is right or wrong before God
• 37:09
  Jeff Leake: too, exactly, yeah, when you discern that, then you have to decide what to do with it, and in some cases, bringing correction is a part of that, if you're in leadership and you have the right to do so, you know, it's not that some Christians feel they have the gift of judgment, and they're gonna go seriously, and they go around pronouncing condemnation on everybody, and that is really toxic. So a person, a pastor, when they discern a problem that has to develop the solution for how to handle that problem so that so as to bring that situation back into a place of health. So when Paul says, Judge those inside the house, not outside the house, it's not our job to judge the world. That's a God's job. That's why we don't spend time correcting the world on things they they believe and don't believe. But in the house, it is our job to discern what's going on so that we can teach and correct and instruct and guide and pastor and protect people into a place of health and truth. So in the house, we have to make sure that we have brought the proper level of leadership to situations that need that discernment and and to do it with the right tone or the right firmness, yeah, and the right encouragement and love, so that the place that we are leading is healthy, yeah, right?
• 38:30
  Jeff Leake: And so judgmental, bad, discerning, good, discerning with some kind of decision to do something, and confrontation, yeah? With, with loving correction, confrontation and and grace. And, you know, being confronted in a way that you need to be confronted in love is always a good thing. It is right. It's better the what does it say the correction of a or the wounds of a friend, than the kisses of an enemy? I guess is an enemy. So sometimes you need a wound to to move forward in the right direction, and that's not a bad thing. So yeah, it's it is important to have a discerning heart and that, and honestly, to feel that you're under the kind of pastoral leadership in your local church that is going to apply this discerning discipline with the right measured approach. Yeah.
• 39:27
  Jeff Leake: So if you have a if you if you're a pastor, and you're constantly railing at the sins of the world, that's probably out of bounds. If you're constantly condemning your own people and putting weight on them of guilt and shame, that's probably the wrong thing. But if you're pointing out things that are dangerous, and you're confronting trends that are unhealthy, and you're you're correcting believers that may not be walking in the right way, and you're providing that out of good, solid biblical teaching, you're going to end up building a healthy place where people can grow spiritually and feel safe.
• 40:00
  Dave Leake: To do. So can I? Can I add and see if you think this is sure, in line with what you're saying, I feel like it means we need to, we need to look at the church, at least the Okay, when I say the church, not not a weekend service, but the people who belong to a church family as something that you are a part of, not something that you attend. Yeah, so And because you're belonging to something and to a group of people, it means that being a part of God's family means that you are committing to follow Jesus. And if there are things that are obvious in your life that are going to be damaging to you or to other people or to your relationship with God, there needs to be love and correction, or else we're sort of enabling somebody to destroy themselves and possibly others,
• 40:44
  Jeff Leake: and actually think it's more than just we're part of God's family. I like kind of look like this. And maybe this is new to some of you who are recent to a church like Allison Park and you're attending and that is, your pastor is really given charge by God to care for your soul, and you need to be a part of a church where you feel like you can submit to your pastor the care of your soul, not that you're not responsible for yourself, or that you're not going to take the initiative to deal with your own stuff. He's not going to do your Christian life for you or she. It's it's that you're saying, I trust you to have my back and to be a covering over my life, so that, just like a shepherd, you know, takes care of sheep, you're gonna you're gonna look to take care of me that way. And there's a level of trust and relationship that's there, like Father Son, like mother daughter, that that kind of relationship, in a way, that's what a pastor does, and you want to be in a church that you feel like you can be pastored like this. This is this person is pastoring me the way that they live their life and the way they teach and preach and and I guess a pastoral team and a church our size is helping, providing the covering and protection and guidance for your soul. And you should want to be a part of a church where you say, I'm now submitting my soul to the care of this pastoral team, because I need their input in my life for me to spiritually flourish.
• 42:11
  Dave Leake: That's great. That's great. Yeah. I think everybody should have somebody that is an authority over them, yeah. And if you don't have anybody that's an authority, that's going to be,
• 42:19
  Jeff Leake: you know, in the confront my my dad, who's now gone to be with Jesus, attended my church, the church that I pastor right for 15 years at the end of his life. And every time he would greet me, would say, Pastor, how are you? And he was saying that, not just as a term of respect, but in a way, he was saying, You're my pastor now, like so my dad, who was my pastor all my life, submitted Himself to my pastor leadership for over a decade, and recognize that all the time by the way that he treated me. Yeah, wow.
• 42:46
  Jeff Leake: And that that's like, no one's above having a pastor. Everybody needs one, right? Doesn't matter if you are a pastor, you need someone who's your pastor to be able to speak into your life.
• 42:59
  Dave Leake: I love that. Okay, all right, we've, I think we've hit that enough, yeah, let's now talk about these seven different things you talked about that are ideologies. Where do I have this seven different ideologies that you were a prophetic wake up call about? Again, this article is called when ideologist Zach a prophetic wake up call, and you start out by saying, in 2021 while recovering from chaos of the pandemic year, I had a prophetic dream, and there's a picture of a tiger. Do you want to just recap that again?
• 43:28
  Jeff Leake: So I was standing on the outside of this big patio area that had, you know, four columns surrounding it, kind of a latticed roof with vines growing over top of it. And around that patio was like a jungle scene, giraffes and elephants and monkeys flying from tree to tree. And there was a baby over in the corner, a far corner from me, in a bassinet.
• 43:54
  Jeff Leake: And as I was watching the baby, there was a tiger that jumped up on the patio and grabbed the baby and started to run away with it, and I felt the Holy Spirit say, rise up and use your authority do something about it.
• 44:04
  Jeff Leake: So in prayer, kind of, I rebuke the devil and the tiger dropped the baby and ran away. Then I woke up, and I woke up feeling the presence of God. And it was like I knew it was I knew it wasn't just a pizza dream, like it was a, it was a prophetic dream. So I just began to meditate that on a prayer, and I realized that the tiger represents the world system, yeah, and because of the hostility that we were living in in 2020, the world system wanted to destroy the innocence, the people of God, those that were at risk, new believers, anything that was, you know, needed my pastoral protection, and that, rather than just watching all the chaos happen this jungle that we were in in 2020 God said, stop just watching and being a spectator, rise up and use your authority and protect protect the baby. Yeah. Okay, so over the years. Years, I have meditated more on what the world system is, and that's where I came up with these ideologies.
• 45:05
  Jeff Leake: Now I should say this, I am a radical when it comes to believing the methodology of Jesus. I believe that Jesus provided the pathway to change the world, and that is the gospel Paul teaches. He said this in First Corinthians, chapter two, I decided to know nothing among you except for Jesus, Christ and Him crucified.
• 45:25
  Jeff Leake: When I showed up, I didn't want to give you wise words of eloquence or wisdom, but I decided to preach to you Jesus and him crucified, resurrected from the dead, because I knew that would be the thing to change the world. What has happened with a lot of these ideologies, Dave is that we have substituted the gospel, or substituted them for the gospel when it comes for looking for answers for the world that we live in that is a jungle that's broken. And what I believe as a radical follower of Jesus is all of these ideologies are cheap substitutes, if not toxic enemies of the house of God, and they don't belong in the house of God, because the gospel is the center of everything. And so that's where I'm pretty radical.
• 46:11
  Jeff Leake: And now, if you read the blogs, you'll, you'll, you'll see me articulate this, and I know that there are some people that are going to disagree with me on this, okay, but as for me in my house, like I have made up my mind, like I'm all about the Jesus ethic and the Jesus method and anything that compromises that I don't want to have anything to do with it. And so I articulated the ideology options that are creeping their way into our theology and our methodology that I think are dangerous great because they are not the gospel.
• 46:47
  Dave Leake: Yeah, and sometimes they're almost so what I think is interesting about this, sometimes some of these ideologies are talked about in ways that almost make them seem like they are the gospel, like there, which is why it's dangerous. They're directly a part of what Jesus did, and we should. And a lot of these things are at least two groups of people like they are ways to create positive change. And I don't, I'll just preface before we get into this, I don't think every single one of these things is evil, but when they're elevated to a certain level, they become potentially dangerous. They're not. Some of them are evil, right?
• 47:31
  Jeff Leake: Not. Most of them are not, but they're not the gospel. That's the thing, right?
• 47:34
  Jeff Leake: So we, we preach the gospel as the way to bring change in the world. There are other political parties and ideologies and tribes and lobbyists and that that want to leverage these other things not a problem, okay, in most cases, unless they're evil, right? But we do not. We do not teach ideologies like this. We teach the gospel.
• 48:03
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, and the gospel is the center of everything, right? And so because these things are not the gospel, say the easiest thing for us is to start with number one, nationalism, the idea that America is the hope of the world, is a substitute for the gospel. It's not America.
• 48:16
  Jeff Leake: We're thankful for it. It's a country that has many, many good things about it. Has been blessed by God. We want it to continue to be blessed by God.
• 48:28
  Jeff Leake: But it isn't the center of the world. First one, he says it's called nationalism, nationalism, and we think Christian nationalism, because that tends to go together. But any nationalism, regardless of what country you are, if you were to elevate this is the center of everything. It's not it's the person of Jesus Christ. It's what, what he's doing in the world through his church. And so if we slap Christian on it, and we make, you know, God in America, the two things that are the keys to world change, it isn't the it isn't the gospel, right? And so therefore, again, nationalism, I have no problem with and the second one is globalism.
• 49:07
  Dave Leake: Which nationalism you have no problem with meaning as a political
• 49:11
  Jeff Leake: ideology. Fine if you believe nationalism, like every nation, has its boundaries and borders and functions as an entity that should cooperate with other nations on Earth.
• 49:25
  Jeff Leake: Great. That's not a bad thing.
• 49:25
  Jeff Leake: It's just not the gospel. It's not it's a it's a fine way of thinking about global politics, right? So there is a desire to make nationalism evil. I don't think nationalism is evil and I don't think globalism is evil. I think both of them are just different approaches to how the world can talk
• 49:41
  Dave Leake: about globalism in a second. But first I just want to, because we're using really complex terminology here again, I just want to make sure everybody's following where we are. We're talking about seven different types of worldviews, perspectives or ideas that are some of them are evil, but not all of them are evil. They're just when they begin to infiltrate. See The idea of this as part of the gospel, or that this is the mission of the church, or that this is why Jesus came, or they get elevated to this idea near salvation, they can distort or pervert the mission that God's called us.
• 50:13
  Dave Leake: Yeah. And so being very careful to distinguish and differentiate what is a outside idea that may be good or bad nationalism or globalism as good examples versus what is a core part of why Jesus came is essential when it comes to what we tolerate, what we preach about, how we build bridges and relationships with other believers or people that call themselves believers.
• 50:37
  Dave Leake: Yeah, right. Okay, so
• 50:40
  Jeff Leake: let's so globalism and nationalism are the polar opposites here, that often war with each other, and those who are globalists look down at the nationalists as if they're fascists because they believe in boundaries and borders. Just give fascist means. Fascist would mean that they're going to use government authority to dominate everyone to bow before their nation. Okay, great. And globalists go. Globalists believe that it's almost like a hippie view of the world, in a way, like it's like, you know, everybody should just get along.
• 51:11
  Jeff Leake: There should be no national boundaries. We should all let sort of a group of global elites tell us what to do, and we all just sort of try to make our way. I
• 51:20
  Dave Leake: ran all your stuff through chatgpt to filter and make it simple. So I'll give you definition of globalism. It advocates for a borderless, unified world, often aiming at a man made utopia. It's a perfect one world, no governments.
• 51:36
  Dave Leake: Everybody shares. There's sharing
• 51:38
  Jeff Leake: of resources and borders, and I kind of talk about it. So nationalism, I think, is it tends to end up in in the church more than we realize. Globalism is just, it just feels like a pipe dream.
• 51:50
  Jeff Leake: It's a little bit of a delusion.
• 51:54
  Jeff Leake: It's what we want the world to be, but it really never is, and it has its own inherent dangers.
• 51:59
  Jeff Leake: So neither, neither system of governance is perfect.
• 52:04
  Dave Leake: And the danger of globalism, when you elevate it too high, is it makes a man made solution where Jesus, Jesus is the only we're
• 52:11
  Jeff Leake: longing for, the the result that you said, everyone gets along, and people are treating each other, right?
• 52:17
  Jeff Leake: That's the kingdom of God, right? According to the gospel.
• 52:20
  Jeff Leake: It isn't a globalistic worldview based on the United Nations, right? It's where
• 52:25
  Dave Leake: Jesus actually rules. Yes, when he rules, we will have a global society, in
• 52:31
  Jeff Leake: a sense, until that happens, the globalistic vision of Utopia is impossible, sure, right. Okay, let's go on. And you talked, we get into deeper waters Marxism and liberation theology. Okay, so Marxism is this worldview now that has divided the world into oppressor and oppressed and created two different tribes, victimized.
• 52:48
  Jeff Leake: And it used to be economic. Now it's also victimizer victim.
• 52:52
  Jeff Leake: There we go. Yeah. Now it's also ethnic and gender based, right?
• 52:55
  Jeff Leake: And it has become a part of a theology called liberation theology, where the idea of bringing equality and justice in the world does not come through the gospel, which makes everyone equal at the foot of the cross and a part of the same family, but it actually then requires for there to be Some global cons, I shouldn't say global conflict, conflict between the haves and have nots in order to che to achieve equality, right?
• 53:26
  Jeff Leake: It, it, by its very nature, is, is a failure, because it never has worked anywhere. It's a it's a false promise, and it and but that's, that's one problem I have with it. The other problem will have with it is it isn't the gospel, right? Because the gospel doesn't separate people into into into two groups. It brings us together into one family. So Marxism does the exact opposite right of what the gospel does
• 53:53
  Dave Leake: well, even even the idea, okay, I do think that as an outflow of of the gospel and their, you know, upside down kingdom, the you know, being servants of all. What we do see is an elevation of people that have been marginalized. True.
• 54:08
  Dave Leake: That's all throughout the gospel. The
• 54:09
  Jeff Leake: Holy Spirit gives an elevation to sons and daughters, to servants, slaves and free, male and female. So that's true.
• 54:19
  Jeff Leake: The Gospel elevates everyone and unifies everyone. Marxism separates everyone and tries to diminish one to elevate the other. Yeah,
• 54:28
  Dave Leake: it's almost like the 00, sum type of thing, like you have to take one down.
• 54:34
  Jeff Leake: It almost always ends in violence, right? In some way, and then some type of
• 54:39
  Dave Leake: dictatorship. And if you just read through the book of Acts people from every stratosphere of class and different nations, and there's not like, let's take them down to this Robin Hood
• 54:49
  Jeff Leake: again. We agree with the utopian vision of globalism and Marxism, but as a methodology, neither one will get you there. Yeah, the Gospel takes you there. Yeah. Or to the outcome you're looking for
• 55:01
  Dave Leake: with Marxism. The danger is it perverts the idea of elevation by also trying to find people to take down.
• 55:08
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, and that's, and that's where it becomes violent. It's
• 55:12
  Dave Leake: violent, but it's also just, it's divisive. And it's, it's, it's not the same Spirit that Jesus brought, yeah, um, he never was seeking, like, power structures were not a part of his thing.
• 55:23
  Jeff Leake: No, he was the opposite. He actually said, if you're interested in power structures, you're off the page, right? Because we aren't like the Gentiles who lord it over others. We you want to be great in the kingdom, you got to be the servant of everybody,
• 55:35
  Dave Leake: yeah, even the taxes, like, you know, or they were like, should we pay taxes to Caesar? And he had them look at the image on the coins. Give the Caesar what Caesars give to God? What's God's that's, that's an, actually, an affirmation of power.
• 55:47
  Jeff Leake: And let's just say, just from the context of history, if Jesus could have been Marxist, because Rome was oppressing
• 55:55
  Dave Leake: the Jews and the Zealots were and it's now worse, but they were
• 55:59
  Jeff Leake: pre Marxist right away? Yeah, they were looking for violent solutions to that inequity,
• 56:05
  Dave Leake: right? Okay, and Simon, one of the disciples, was from that was hard, yeah, okay, let's keep going. Which
• 56:10
  Jeff Leake: means, if you're a Marxist, Jesus loves you and wants you being on his discipleship team. We're not looking at you with any kind of disdain. If that's your worldview, it's just that it it's not the
• 56:19
  Dave Leake: gospel, right? Yeah, it's not the gospel. And maybe a slight tweak of that worldview would be more Christ, Christ centered,
• 56:29
  Jeff Leake: slight, massive,
• 56:32
  Dave Leake: yeah, sorry, okay, my voice is going, I'm not sure why. Okay, number four, capitalism and socialism. Yeah.
• 56:39
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so this is the economic systems that, again, two sides battle over. G so I don't have a problem with capitalism and and I'm probably lean more capitalistic than socialistic in my economic worldview, because I think capitalism has probably improved the world. And if you look at the last podcast we just did, one of the reasons why I think there are the poor are getting richer is because of the fact that the free markets have helped the world. However, capitalism, without any checks and balances, tends to be very cruel, and so I can see why some people would argue for more of a socialistic approach. And I know friends who are from socialistic countries and and they if they would look at me and think, capitalism, if you're a capitalist, you're crazy.
• 57:21
  Jeff Leake: Socialism is better. What I would say is there's no perfect economic system, but here's the deal. Jesus didn't come preaching economics. He came preaching the kingdom, and I think we have to stay on our lane, right, right. So does the gospel produce some aspects of socialism, yes. Does it produce some aspects of capitalism? Yes.
• 57:43
  Jeff Leake: So I think there's some kind of a balance here. But for me, it's a secondary issue, because it's not the gospel. And elevating this, this is not evil, right?
• 57:52
  Jeff Leake: Neither one is evil. It's just that. It's just not the gospel, right?
• 57:57
  Dave Leake: And it's a competitive ideology, if it gets elevated too high, yeah, which is why it's on this list, right?
• 58:03
  Dave Leake: Okay, next one feminism, and you have modern and
• 58:06
  Jeff Leake: secular. Well, feminism and Marxism are similar in that it's oppressor and oppressed. It's men against women. It's allies with women, allies with you know, men have to be destroyed. The patriarch, or patriarchy, which is the power structure, has to be dismantled in order for women to thrive. It's it's that idea. So the Gospel says women should be elevated. We're for women, but it doesn't say we're against men. It says we're for women, we're for men, we're for everyone. We believe everyone can be elevated at the same time. It's, it's, it's not dismantling anything the gospel isn't dismantling patriarchy.
• 58:47
  Jeff Leake: It's, it's teaching healthy family. It's teaching healthy submission. It's teaching what it is to serve one another.
• 58:55
  Dave Leake: It's teaching healthy masculinity and healthy feminine Exactly,
• 58:59
  Jeff Leake: right? And so. So feminism, in its truest secular form, is one of these divide and conquer strategies. And again, I agree with a lot of the vision of feminism, of elevating women, absolutely right. I don't agree with the methodology.
• 59:20
  Dave Leake: I think that you'd said it great, but I'll just reiterate, I think the everything that that sort of smacks of overthrowing societal norms, you know, like this, power structures, yeah, erasing gender roles, like, like, blowing up stereotypes. It's not in some of those things aren't even necessarily inherently evil, but when they become a focus, especially when they're focusing on the power structure of like, let's take men down to elevate women, it's
• 59:51
  Jeff Leake: actually a different gospel. It is. It's not Jesus's gospel. It's good news that comes from another source that is ends up not being. So good,
• 1:00:01
  Dave Leake: right? And we both, by the way, are, you know, just to be clear, here are totally about women in ministry.
• 1:00:08
  Jeff Leake: Absolutely, in fact, that's going to be one of our next episodes. Yeah, we're going to that's an issue we have never talked about. So this
• 1:00:14
  Dave Leake: needs to be clear, because just because something has good parts or sounds good does not mean it actually is good. That's where some of these deceiving like, it's like, close to being on but it's, yeah, scary.
• 1:00:24
  Jeff Leake: And again, an important you are free to disagree with me. Again, if I'm your pastor, I'm just telling you my worldview. Dave and I are together here. It's, I'm just telling you I'm a radical Jesus follower, and I believe in the gospel, and I'm not going to veer from that and anything that isn't the gospel of Jesus, I'm not going to go for and you might say, I think that's inadequate. I don't think that addresses enough. Okay, we can agree to disagree, but for me, it's the gospel and or nothing like I'm a Paul guy. I'm going to say I decided to and when it comes to changing the world, I don't want to know anything among you except Christ and Him crucified. For me, that's the be all and end all. I'm staying in that lane. I'm not going to veer from it.
• 1:01:04
  Dave Leake: And, yeah, we keep going in on this. But yeah, I think the danger adding things in waters, what the what the gospel is down, yep. So, okay, let's, let's again, not that the outcomes aren't what we desire.
• 1:01:16
  Dave Leake: I think a lot of these outcomes are things we want. Meaning elevation is the pathway, protection of people. It's just the methodology is not great, or the worldview. Critical Theory, number six,
• 1:01:29
  Jeff Leake: critical theory.
• 1:01:29
  Jeff Leake: This is one that very critical race theory. This would be critical. Critical Theory is, is the
• 1:01:36
  Dave Leake: base? Sure it becomes everything else.
• 1:01:39
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, right. So just a man a real quick. So if you don't know what this is, you really need to do some research on it, because it is such a huge influence on our society today.
• 1:01:50
  Jeff Leake: I
• 1:01:50
  Dave Leake: think everybody feels what this is, because it's the way society talks. But you probably couldn't define it, and part of that's the intention of those who created critical theory is making it confusing to
• 1:02:01
  Jeff Leake: define. Yeah, so it's an attempt to change the norms of society by redefining words and concepts and attacking power structures through that creation of chaos, so that another norm can emerge that is redefined by those that are trying to influence a sort of a re education process of society.
• 1:02:27
  Jeff Leake: So
• 1:02:27
  Dave Leake: I'll give a different definition here. It's a worldview that deconstructs social structures and social norms to challenge power and identity. So typically, right now, if it's a secular power thing, talking about any type of power structure. We talked about the patriarchy or whatever. And it's focusing on deconstruction, which has ultimately made its way very much into the church.
• 1:02:51
  Dave Leake: That's the idea of a critical theory, and it is complex in nature.
• 1:02:57
  Jeff Leake: This also needs a whole episode, but I'll just say on the list of things, of these seven, this one probably is the most insidious,
• 1:03:08
  Dave Leake: totally, I think, I think this one is probably evil,
• 1:03:12
  Jeff Leake: yeah, so not, not every aspect of those of it, of it is not every person that gets involved in this direction is, but there's something very so when I say the word and I used insidious rather than evil, because insidious is it has a very sneaky way of bringing you to a place where all of the sudden you think things that are not aligned with the way you used to think about the Bible, about Truth, about yourself, and before you know it, you've been offered a lie that is going to lead you down a path pretty evil. It is
• 1:03:50
  Unknown: neutral to be the way you're describing. So yeah,
• 1:03:53
  Jeff Leake: so there is, there is a book called cynical theory.
• 1:03:55
  Jeff Leake: It's not written by a Christian, really good read that's written by someone in the educational world that's very concerned about the critical theory way of approaching things, and written by a progressive, by the way, yeah, not a not a conservative person, but they can see the how this is sort of unwinding and unraveling A lot of what had been common understanding in society, and it's not producing anything healthy.
• 1:04:24
  Dave Leake: Ultimately, just to be clear, we are not coming for the throats of any of the desired outcomes, typically that no no protection of people that are marginalized, or elevation of those that are Yeah,
• 1:04:36
  Jeff Leake: but critical theory is not the gospel, and will try to pervert the gospel. I agree.
• 1:04:40
  Dave Leake: Okay, last one, and we've talked about this a lot, but you have individualism and self self
• 1:04:44
  Jeff Leake: expression. Yeah, this is the whole idea that the world is what I feel, that it is, and everything begins and ends with me and what I feel
• 1:04:53
  Dave Leake: about it, right, the belief that personal identity and self expression are the highest good, right, being true to yourself is the most. Most important thing, yeah, and we've talked a lot about this, but it's not the gospel, because Jesus calls us to die to ourselves and
• 1:05:07
  Jeff Leake: find life, because you are not God, and he is, you know, right? And so find
• 1:05:11
  Dave Leake: life in Jesus, not in self fulfillment, yep. So I think that kind of wraps it up.
• 1:05:14
  Dave Leake: Yeah, a lot there.
• 1:05:16
  Jeff Leake: But so there are maybe just, I'm not promoting my blog. I'm just pushing you back to the material that will maybe be helpful to you. The last the last two blog posts were one a prayer to pray so that you can if you find yourself inner, inwardly conflicted, of having to deal with people and ideologies that you don't agree with how to get yourself to a healthy place by praying through this prayer on a daily basis.
• 1:05:45
  Jeff Leake: And then the last post that I was seven statements to change the world, seven convictions that I carry that I think if you'll read that last post, even if you're a little messed up by what you just heard us talk about, the seven statements, there are statements that I would want everyone to hear, and so I'll just point you there so that you understand, if I am your pastor or as a pastor, voice in your life, I'm in no way against you, even if you disagree with me. I'm just trying to navigate my way through and be as clear as I possibly can be, because, you know, I want to be I want to be a statesman leader in my generation, and I want to create a foundation for other leaders to to follow when it comes to trying to find pathways forward through all this polarization, right? And I want to lead a healthy church, and I want to lead people to the real Jesus and true transformation. And I am a crazy, radical follower of Jesus that believes in the efficacy of the gospel as the as the primary method to change the world.
• 1:06:50
  Dave Leake: I just think, just one more thought to close, I think this. The goal is not a call to arms, you know, come against the seven ideologies or whatever. I think the goal is, is equip, equipping people that are listening, to discern properly, to guard yourself.
• 1:07:06
  Dave Leake: Because some of these things are, as you said, insidious.
• 1:07:09
  Dave Leake: They're hard to distinguish from what the Bible says, Unless you really dive in, and then you're like, oh, that's kind of crazy.
• 1:07:16
  Dave Leake: We actually didn't even fully dive in to the degree that we could have, or probably even have on some of our past episodes. But there are key places where the trail of what the Bible says diverges radically from what some of these different worldviews have.
• 1:07:33
  Dave Leake: We just need to be careful of or else we can easily become more of a person that's a follower of what culture and the world says yes, and what the Bible actually says and what God wants for us,
• 1:07:44
  Jeff Leake: yeah. And I'd love your feedback, if you want to leave a comment, you know, in any form, after reading the blog, after listening to this episode, we'd love to hear from you. We also would love to get get your Likes on on YouTube and in your reviews, five star reviews, like and subscribe, yeah. But, but ultimately, again, if you have a different point of view, you want to share it, we'd love to hear from you.
• 1:08:07
  Jeff Leake: This is a conversation. We don't want it to be something where we think we're the answers to all things, but
• 1:08:11
  Dave Leake: absolutely and we're so glad again, that you joined us. Think you already mentioned all the things that you can do.
• 1:08:16
  Dave Leake: We'd appreciate your help in spreading the word in any of those ways. And so Hey, until again next time, we'll see you soon. You.