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We need to talk about Delaney Hall. · This Week On ICE

0:06
SPEAKER_01: Hi, everyone.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to This Week On ICE for May 29, 2026.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: We have to start with some breaking news out of Newark, New Jersey.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Delaney Hall,
0:16
a 1,000-bed ICE detention facility owned by the private prison
0:20
company GEO Group,
0:21
SPEAKER_01: has become the latest flashpoint in the ongoing debate over the morality,
0:26
SPEAKER_01: legality,
0:27
SPEAKER_01: and efficacy of Trump's expanding detention apparatus.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Over 300 detainees are now in the seventh day of a hunger strike.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: alleging brutal conditions like inadequate medical care,
0:39
SPEAKER_01: maggot-infested food,
0:40
SPEAKER_01: and physical abuse at the hands of immigration officers.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: They're not just demanding better treatment, though.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: They want their freedom.
0:48
So I was on the ground outside the facility on Thursday where
0:52
protesters were
0:53
pepper-sprayed and arrested as tensions escalated between
0:57
officers and the
0:57
SPEAKER_01: demonstrators.
0:59
Inside,
1:00
detainees who participated in the strike reportedly faced
1:03
retaliation such as
1:05
SPEAKER_01: beatings, getting pepper sprayed, and at least four hospitalizations.
1:09
While I was there in about a two-hour span,
1:12
I saw at least four ambulances enter Delaney Hall.
1:16
New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill attempted a health
1:19
inspection but was denied
1:21
SPEAKER_01: full access on Thursday as well.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: This story is still developing and when Matt is back next week,
1:27
we will do a full deep dive into Delaney as well as the other
1:31
hunger strikes now
1:32
SPEAKER_01: spreading in facilities in California.
1:35
We're also going to look into what this all says about systemic
1:38
mistreatment in ICE
1:39
SPEAKER_01: detention nationwide.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: But first,
1:42
SPEAKER_01: we have a fantastic interview with Ava Sasani of The Trace,
1:46
SPEAKER_01: who tracks gun violence during immigration enforcement.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Then,
1:50
Ben and I highlight some of the Pulitzer Prize-winning
1:53
journalism covering the
1:54
SPEAKER_01: immigration crackdown over the last year.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Stick with us.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: I sat down with Ava Sasani.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: She is an assistant editor at The Trace's Gun Violence Data Hub.
2:11
The Trace is a newsroom exclusively dedicated to reporting on
2:15
the United States'
2:16
SPEAKER_01: gun violence crisis.
2:17
So Ava is currently working on a project on tracking every
2:21
shooting and use of
2:22
SPEAKER_01: force incident connected to President Trump's immigration raids.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: So far,
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Ava has tracked about 84 incidents in which ICE agents have killed,
2:32
SPEAKER_01: injured,
2:33
SPEAKER_01: shot at people,
2:34
or held bystanders,
2:35
protesters,
2:36
and other people at gunpoint under questionable circumstances.
2:40
Ava,
2:40
I'm truly looking forward to hearing how you've been tracking
2:43
all of this.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: So Ava, let's start from the very beginning.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: How did this investigation get started and why?
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: So to start, we had sort of been monitoring
3:00
immigration enforcement actions by the current Trump
3:04
administration for a couple of
3:06
SPEAKER_00: months now on the periphery before we began.
3:09
There were news reports in July of last year that an ICE agent
3:16
fired guns during
3:18
SPEAKER_00: the arrest of somebody in Colorado.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: So it had been sort of on our periphery for a while,
3:25
but then we really started paying attention in September of
3:28
last year when
3:30
the Trump administration sent federal agents to Chicago for
3:34
Operation Midway Blitz
3:36
and then in September when news broke that the agents had shot
3:42
and killed somebody
3:43
in I believe it was a Chicago suburb in Franklin Park excuse me
3:48
that fatal shooting
3:51
sort of prompted a more intense look and we realized that there
3:55
wasn't anything
3:56
publicly facing data set or even easily requestable data set
4:01
that tracked use of
4:02
force incidents for federal immigration agents and especially
4:06
for RB it's very much
4:09
a thing of where if you have a data set that you think would be
4:14
useful for your
4:14
SPEAKER_00: reporting but doesn't exist just make it because chances are
4:20
SPEAKER_00: However imperfect that open source dataset is,
4:23
it's still going to be useful to other people that were also
4:26
interested in that
4:27
SPEAKER_00: same data.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: So that's sort of how we got to where we are now.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: So be the change you wish to see in the world, however imperfect.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, 84, what a significant number.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: And you've categorized them in a very specific way.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: So,
4:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:42
there's there are categories on like ICE agents injuring
4:46
shooting at people under
4:48
SPEAKER_02: questionable circumstances.
4:50
you know can you break down these specific categories why you
4:54
kind of organized it
4:55
in this way how has it been helpful for you and your team in
4:59
your reporting and
5:00
tracking of these instances absolutely so there's some
5:04
straightforward categories
5:06
like when a immigration agent shoots and kills or injures
5:11
somebody with a firearm
5:13
that's pretty clear-cut but there was also a question for our
5:17
newsroom of how to
5:18
SPEAKER_00: track
5:20
SPEAKER_00: other incidents that we would consider gun violence or use of force in
5:28
circumstances where the agent was let's say a state or local
5:31
law enforcement
5:32
officer so we sort of established this criteria for what to
5:39
include in the
5:40
brandishing category which is you know when a gun is pointed at
5:44
you does that count
5:45
SPEAKER_00: as gun violence
5:47
do we count every incident where an agent points a gun at a
5:51
person the criteria
5:53
that we sort of came up with to count as brandishing this is
5:57
available on our
5:57
website if anyone's curious but one example is if an agent
6:03
draws a gun on a
6:04
civilian who is not a suspect so if you're seeing ICE agents
6:10
point guns at
6:12
SPEAKER_00: Journalists,
6:13
bystanders who are peacefully observing an immigration raid or
6:18
some other activity,
6:19
SPEAKER_00: that would count as a brandishing incident for us.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Guns drawn when there's no immediate safety threat,
6:26
SPEAKER_00: so the person that's being arrested is not visibly armed,
6:29
SPEAKER_00: aggressive,
6:30
SPEAKER_00: or there's no imminent danger posed to the agent,
6:34
SPEAKER_00: that sort of counts as brandishing for us.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Guns drawn during a warrantless or unlawful arrest or detention or,
6:44
as was the case for a couple of incidents in Minneapolis and I
6:47
believe also
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Chicago,
6:49
SPEAKER_00: cases where there is a child nearby or another vulnerable person nearby,
6:58
SPEAKER_00: guns drawn by agents who are
7:01
off-duty at the time of the incident not conducting a federal
7:05
immigration business
7:06
that counts so that sort of became our criteria for that
7:11
there's also incidents
7:12
where you know there are these things that we call less lethal
7:16
munitions so rubber
7:18
SPEAKER_00: bullets pepper balls they're not technically guns per se but
7:25
My colleagues have done a lot of interesting reporting looking
7:28
at the damage that
7:29
SPEAKER_00: those less lethal munitions can still do if you're hit by them.
7:33
There was an incident at least one in California I believe
7:37
where an agent hit
7:40
someone in the eye with a non-lethal munition and ended up
7:45
unfortunately blinding
7:46
SPEAKER_00: them so we decided to include that as well especially
7:51
when you're seeing so much anti-protest violence inflicted by
7:57
these agents.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: That was also an internal discussion.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: I think,
8:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:01
SPEAKER_00: our beat is gun violence,
8:03
SPEAKER_00: so when we include less lethal munitions is a little bit tricky,
8:07
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's worth including,
8:10
especially when you see the damage that those types of
8:15
munitions can cause on
8:16
SPEAKER_00: people's lives.
8:18
absolutely it seems like with all of the specificity it can
8:22
become atomized very
8:23
quickly I mean even looking at a brandishing a weapon and when
8:26
to categorize it
8:27
when not to I mean for every recorded incident there are
8:31
probably countless more
8:33
SPEAKER_02: that may
8:33
may kind of fall through the cracks and I appreciate the
8:36
specificity in which you
8:37
are really trying to approach and capture all of these
8:40
different gun related
8:41
SPEAKER_02: incidents and perhaps some of the most,
8:43
the largest flashpoints that we've seen recently in the news
8:46
were the killings of
8:48
SPEAKER_02: Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Good in Minneapolis,
8:51
SPEAKER_02: Minnesota during ICE's Operation Metro Surge.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if you can,
8:57
with the exception of what you have just shared about less
8:59
lethal munitions even
9:01
SPEAKER_02: blinding someone,
9:02
some of the most recent findings that you have have spotted any
9:06
specific incidents
9:07
that really stick out to you from your investigation so far
9:10
that you'd like to
9:11
bring to the surface oh my gosh well a lot of them are are
9:16
devastating especially
9:17
when we're able to see what happens following these arrests you
9:23
see how there's so
9:24
SPEAKER_00: much collateral violence
9:27
But for me the thing that is sticking out right now is less so
9:32
an individual
9:33
incident and more a pattern that we've been noticing I'd say
9:37
over the past few
9:38
months which is that more and more local and state law
9:42
enforcement agencies are
9:44
SPEAKER_00: being looped in to
9:47
work with the Department of Homeland Security and essentially
9:51
through this program
9:52
called 287G being authorized to do the work of federal
9:58
immigration agents.
10:00
In theory,
10:01
these officers would be trained by ICE agents to have the same
10:05
qualifications.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: Whether or not that happens is questionable, but the thing that
10:11
really sticks out for us is when we want to learn about how
10:17
that partnership
10:19
between a local or state law enforcement agency and the
10:23
Department of Homeland
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Security works.
10:26
Our newsroom and a bunch of other newsrooms have requested
10:28
records to understand,
10:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
10:32
SPEAKER_00: the details of that arrangement.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: And as recently as last week,
10:37
our newsroom and other journalists received a letter from some
10:40
of these agencies
10:41
essentially stating that even though they are deputized to do
10:46
the work of federal
10:48
immigration enforcement even though they are in theory subject
10:54
to the same public
10:55
record laws that would you know dictate any other request to
10:59
local or state law
11:00
SPEAKER_00: enforcement ICE is essentially blocking
11:04
those agencies from sharing information with journalists you
11:10
know there's active
11:11
litigation over this right now we'll see how that pans out but
11:14
I think this new
11:16
trend where a lot of the violence done by immigration
11:22
enforcement is being
11:23
SPEAKER_00: laundered through state and local law enforcement agencies and
11:29
that process is making it really hard to get visibility in a
11:33
lot of these incidents.
11:35
That is really interesting and I think frightening because if
11:41
you see a federal law
11:43
SPEAKER_00: enforcement agent in your city,
11:45
SPEAKER_00: chances are,
11:46
SPEAKER_00: especially at this point,
11:48
SPEAKER_00: that federal law enforcement agent is going to be watched,
11:51
SPEAKER_00: is going to be videotaped by somebody.
11:54
that's not going to happen if you see just,
11:57
you know,
11:58
the local sheriff's office out and about.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Even if they are using weapons to do immigration enforcement,
12:05
SPEAKER_00: that's a lot less likely to be witnessed.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: So again,
12:08
SPEAKER_00: I think the way that these raids and arrests are still happening,
12:14
SPEAKER_00: but with so much less visibility,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: that's that's really scary.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: And that sticks out recently.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
12:23
and the fact that it's happening in such a way that the press
12:27
is unable to track or
12:29
even access documentation tracking it is pretty unprecedented
12:33
and extraordinary.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: I am wondering for you,
12:36
SPEAKER_02: and it's okay if this might be difficult to answer,
12:38
SPEAKER_02: but ICE is the highest funded
12:43
SPEAKER_02: highest funded law enforcement branch in the government right now.
12:47
They received a multi-billion dollar windfall from the one big
12:51
beautiful bill,
12:52
and yet they are continuing to deputize other types of law
12:57
enforcement to help
12:57
SPEAKER_02: them,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: including,
12:59
SPEAKER_02: as you have said,
13:00
SPEAKER_02: local law enforcement.
13:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering the why of it all.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: You know,
13:04
why are they looking into looping in state and local law
13:08
enforcement to help with
13:09
SPEAKER_02: this,
13:09
SPEAKER_02: given that they already have billions of dollars in their wake?
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
13:15
SPEAKER_00: it's a really interesting question,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: especially because something that,
13:19
SPEAKER_00: again,
13:19
our newsroom and a bunch of other journalists have been looking
13:21
into lately is part
13:22
SPEAKER_00: of that funding,
13:24
SPEAKER_00: that enormous budget that DHS and ICE specifically has,
13:29
is being paid to these state and local law enforcement agencies
13:32
to do that work for
13:34
SPEAKER_00: them.
13:34
I think,
13:35
you know,
13:36
it's hard to speculate what the motivation is,
13:38
but I think at the very least,
13:42
It creates consent for something that I think has grown
13:49
incredibly unpopular,
13:52
SPEAKER_00: especially following the deaths of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Good in
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Minneapolis.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: According to some polling,
13:59
SPEAKER_00: it looked like at that point,
14:01
SPEAKER_00: following those killings,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: support for what ICE was doing was plummeting,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: right?
14:08
SPEAKER_00: But again,
14:10
if you launder that action of immigration enforcement and you
14:16
know that term itself
14:18
if you arrest a civilian is that really immigration enforcement
14:22
but that laundering
14:26
of what the federal government is doing what DHS is doing
14:30
through state and local
14:32
police I think it's less a question of do they need the
14:35
resources of state and
14:37
SPEAKER_00: local police I think it obscures that
14:41
SPEAKER_00: violence from accountability.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: Because again,
14:45
I think there is this very American resistance to seeing the
14:50
federal government
14:51
SPEAKER_00: come into your state and take away your neighbors,
14:57
SPEAKER_00: use tear gas on protests in your city.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: There's this very American resistance to seeing that.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: I think that exists less so for
15:08
SPEAKER_00: police in many parts of the country.
15:10
There is more of a trust established there usually than with
15:14
the federal government.
15:16
State and local police are much,
15:18
much older than the Department of Homeland Security.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: That's a relatively young agency in terms of American history.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: I think it creates consent where maybe there was not a lot,
15:31
SPEAKER_00: especially after what we saw earlier this year.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:37
that term obscuring that violence from accountability is
15:42
particularly apt and that
15:44
leads me to my second question which is what are the levers of
15:49
justice and
15:50
accountability that are available to people should any of these
15:54
instances happen to
15:55
SPEAKER_02: them?
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Should they be injured?
15:56
SPEAKER_02: Should they have a weapon brandished in front of them?
15:59
SPEAKER_02: God forbid should anyone they know be killed?
16:02
SPEAKER_02: What does justice look like right now that you're seeing?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: It's an interesting question.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: I think part of what makes these actions so devastating is that they,
16:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:15
SPEAKER_00: it's very few at this point.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Since 2020,
16:19
the Supreme Court has been weakening the circumstances that
16:24
would allow you to sue
16:25
SPEAKER_00: a federal law enforcement officer,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: any federal law enforcement officer,
16:29
SPEAKER_00: not just immigration agents,
16:31
SPEAKER_00: but
16:33
previously if an individual agent violated your constitutional
16:37
rights you would be
16:40
able to more often file a lawsuit with some exceptions but you
16:43
could generally sue
16:44
that individual agent since 2020 there are these two big
16:49
Supreme Court cases where
16:52
essentially the justices narrowed that to a point where it's
16:59
nearly impossible I'm
17:01
SPEAKER_00: not an attorney so I don't want to
17:03
SPEAKER_00: speak to certainly,
17:04
but the legal recourse for suing an agent who violates your
17:11
constitutional rights,
17:12
SPEAKER_00: even if you're an American citizen,
17:14
SPEAKER_00: even if the violation was truly shocking,
17:18
SPEAKER_00: is incredibly,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: incredibly narrow.
17:21
So that's,
17:22
you know,
17:23
that's not a happy answer,
17:24
but it is what we're seeing.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: On the other end of the spectrum, I think
17:32
what I find hopeful is how much accountability I think can be
17:38
brought by just
17:40
monitoring and witnessing what these agents are doing you know
17:44
we how many videos
17:45
have we seen now of federal agents retaliating against people
17:49
who are just filming
17:50
SPEAKER_00: them with with phones you know everyone has a camera everyone has
17:55
SPEAKER_00: the option with great risk.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Now we know that,
17:58
but everyone has the option to document when they see this type
18:03
of violence
18:04
SPEAKER_00: occurring.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's incredibly powerful.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: It's just being able to witness it,
18:09
SPEAKER_00: which,
18:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:10
SPEAKER_00: it's,
18:10
it sounds like a portrait of being able to go to court versus
18:14
just videotaping it.
18:16
But I don't know,
18:17
I do believe personally,
18:19
and it's hard to know what exactly drove this,
18:21
but
18:23
I do believe that the fact that so many people in Minneapolis
18:26
earlier this year
18:27
were documenting and sharing what they witnessed agents doing
18:32
in their city is part
18:34
SPEAKER_00: of why we saw the withdrawal of agents from Minneapolis.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Now there's still raids going on,
18:41
there's still ICE going on but not nearly to the extent that we
18:45
saw previously.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that
18:50
SPEAKER_00: neighbors got together and said,
18:52
SPEAKER_00: okay,
18:53
SPEAKER_00: when you see this type of violence in your community,
18:56
SPEAKER_00: film it and share it and document it.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
19:01
I do think that's an important accountability tool that people
19:04
are still relying on
19:05
SPEAKER_00: today.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: And we do see it, in fact, in the polls as well.
19:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
19:11
poll after poll has indicated that Trump and the
19:15
administration's approval ratings
19:17
SPEAKER_02: have continued to crater over time.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: in one part the war in Iran,
19:22
but also in part because of these ICE raids that have become so
19:26
incredibly
19:26
SPEAKER_02: unpopular.
19:29
I would like us to turn toward the future a bit and look at
19:33
what you are tracking
19:35
SPEAKER_02: or looking at right now and as you develop this tracker further.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: So in early May, the US Trump administration
19:43
SPEAKER_02: announced that it will act its expedited trainings of ICE agents,
19:48
SPEAKER_02: opting instead to put more experienced agents on the ground during raids,
19:53
SPEAKER_02: surges,
19:53
SPEAKER_02: and other types of arrests.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: I would love your thoughts on this.
19:58
What might it signal about future interactions between ICE
20:03
agents and American citizens?
20:05
And adding onto that,
20:07
what other things you are looking for that may change the
20:10
course of
20:11
SPEAKER_02: of what you are tracking with ICE incidents.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: You know,
20:18
SPEAKER_00: honestly,
20:19
since I've always been dubious of that claim that we've been
20:24
hearing in the news a
20:25
lot lately that the reason that you're seeing so much
20:28
misconduct under this current
20:30
SPEAKER_00: administration is because of the lack of training.
20:34
A lot of the times we don't know the names of the agents who
20:38
are involved in these
20:39
SPEAKER_00: shootings,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: but sometimes we do,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: especially for the more high profile shootings.
20:44
And when you look into the records of the customs and ICE
20:48
agents who've done a lot
20:50
SPEAKER_00: of those high profile shootings,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: again,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: in the limited cases where we know their names,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: a lot of them were incredibly experienced.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: These were not new recruits.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: These were people that
21:00
you know had been serving with the agency for quite a while or
21:05
at least had been
21:06
working in law enforcement for quite a while so I guess I'm
21:09
wary of this idea that
21:12
if they if agents get more training agents you know start
21:17
wearing body cameras that
21:19
that will alleviate a lot of again the misconduct and the the
21:25
violence that we've
21:25
SPEAKER_00: seen particularly under this administration and
21:30
I also you know we've spoken to a lot of criminal justice
21:34
reform experts who study
21:36
police misconduct on the state and local level and something
21:40
that every single one
21:41
of those experts has told me is you know body cameras great
21:46
more training great all
21:48
of that is moot unless you establish a guide for use of force
21:54
for your agents a
21:56
SPEAKER_00: clear
21:57
SPEAKER_00: guide of when use of force is justified and when it is not.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: And more importantly,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: create a system of accountability for when that guide,
22:08
SPEAKER_00: when that standard of force is violated.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: To my knowledge, those standards have not been implemented at DHS.
22:19
So I think without that,
22:21
I have a hard time being optimistic about the level of
22:26
training.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Also,
22:28
SPEAKER_00: related to how DHS is using state and local law enforcement,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: is deputizing them to do a lot of federal immigration enforcement,
22:38
SPEAKER_00: that program,
22:39
SPEAKER_00: the task force model,
22:42
they slash training for that as well so previously law
22:46
enforcement agents agencies
22:47
that wanted to be deputized to do immigration enforcement would
22:51
have to go in
22:52
person to this four-week training course now that four weeks in
22:56
person has been
22:57
SPEAKER_00: shortened to a 40-hour online webinar so
23:02
SPEAKER_00: for all of those reasons,
23:06
it's hard to be optimistic of how this announcement by the
23:10
Trump administration is
23:11
SPEAKER_00: going to create real world impacts,
23:16
SPEAKER_00: if that makes sense.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: That's an incredibly nuanced answer and I really appreciate it.
23:22
I suppose things definitely remain to be seen and I appreciate
23:27
the work that you're
23:27
SPEAKER_02: doing on this tracker.
23:29
SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to thank you so much for your time.
23:31
thank you so much I just want to say is it's open source
23:34
research we're relying on
23:36
court records we're relying on local news oh my god so much of
23:40
what we're able to
23:41
do is thanks to local journalists and tips a lot of what we
23:46
have in that tracker
23:47
starts from just civilians providing tips so you know if you
23:51
can we have a great
23:53
SPEAKER_00: anonymous tip line you can contact us completely securely we'll
23:59
SPEAKER_00: respect and protect your privacy.
24:02
So if you witness any incidents that you don't see in our
24:05
tracker and you want to
24:05
SPEAKER_00: make sure we're covering,
24:07
SPEAKER_00: I would encourage anyone to reach out to us through that tip line.
24:11
wonderful you heard it from Ava so the tip line is thetrace.org
24:15
forward slash tips
24:17
if I'm not mistaken and so you can follow Ava's incredible work
24:22
on the trace and we
24:23
will link it to our newsletter for those who have signed up for
24:25
the newsletter for
24:26
this week on ICE Ava thank you so much for your time thanks so
24:30
much for having me
24:33
SPEAKER_03: What an interview.
24:34
Thank you so much to Ava and all the folks at The Trace for
24:36
conducting such
24:37
SPEAKER_03: rigorous and difficult journalism and sharing it with us.
24:41
SPEAKER_03: As Ava mentioned,
24:42
local and independent reporters are playing a crucial role in
24:45
holding ICE and the
24:46
Trump administration accountable during this cascade of state
24:49
violence directed to
24:50
SPEAKER_03: immigrants.
24:51
SPEAKER_03: Folks like Ava,
24:52
SPEAKER_03: our co-host Ben Camacho,
24:53
and past guests like Ryan Minna are staying on beats that
24:57
really matter to their
24:57
SPEAKER_03: communities and we feel so lucky to have them on the show.
25:01
We Need Your Help To Get Their Good Work Out There If You Can
25:04
Share The Show With A
25:04
Friend Send Them A Link To Our Spotify Page Or Our Substack Blog
25:08
Or Even Leave Us A
25:09
Five Star Review And A Comment On Your Podcast And Platform Of
25:13
Choice It Would Make
25:14
Such A Difference In Helping Us Continue To Grow And Bring You
25:17
More Of The
25:17
SPEAKER_03: Fantastic Reporting That We All Rely On Thanks And Back To The Show
25:26
SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
25:28
SPEAKER_03: For this segment,
25:29
SPEAKER_03: we're sharing highlights from the Pulitzer Prizes,
25:31
SPEAKER_03: which were announced earlier this month.
25:33
So many of these awards were given to journalists who publish
25:36
hard-hitting and
25:37
SPEAKER_03: incisive coverage of ICE,
25:39
SPEAKER_03: and given how the news cycle works,
25:41
SPEAKER_03: it's really easy to have never seen some of these stories at all.
25:44
So we're giving them a bit more of the limelight and sharing
25:46
our favorites with you all.
25:48
Kelly,
25:48
why don't you start off with your favorite ICE-related stories
25:51
from the Pulitzer Prizes?
25:53
The Pulitzer Prize winners that I wanted to focus on are four
25:56
people from the staff at Reuters.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: So Ned Parker, Linda Soh, Peter Eisler, and Mike Spector.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: So their body of work was celebrated at the Pulitzer Prizes.
26:06
Yeah,
26:06
pretty much anything they wrote,
26:07
they're like,
26:08
here's a Pulitzer Prize for it.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: I know, it's like, could be us one day.
26:12
if only but there were two investigations I found really really
26:16
incredible and they
26:17
SPEAKER_01: involved ICE and they involved the courts they looked into how the Trump
26:21
administration is undermining legal defenses intended for the
26:25
vulnerable okay and
26:27
also the two stories that I really loved really proved via
26:32
massive investigations
26:33
that lawyers and law firms that once offered free legal help to
26:37
those with
26:38
SPEAKER_01: immigration cases that challenge Trump's executive orders
26:42
They're now shying away from these cases due to fear of the
26:45
Trump administration or
26:47
SPEAKER_01: Trump supporters retaliating against them.
26:50
That was a really stunning investigation because they
26:53
interviewed over 60 lawyers.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: They reviewed 50 law firm websites.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: They contacted over 70 nonprofits.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: They analyzed millions of court records to make this story possible.
27:04
So what they were able to find is that nonprofit advocacy
27:07
groups and other
27:09
SPEAKER_01: organizations,
27:09
they really depend on law firms to interrogate Trump's
27:13
executive orders and
27:15
SPEAKER_01: sweeping assertions about immigrant communities.
27:18
So what these executive orders and assertions have been doing
27:21
is causing a chilling
27:22
SPEAKER_01: effect that has limited the resources afforded to these advocacy groups,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: such as helping research legal documents,
27:30
SPEAKER_01: preparing briefs,
27:31
SPEAKER_01: pursuing litigation.
27:32
these same groups used to offer legal aid and other resources
27:36
to low income
27:37
SPEAKER_01: communities with the help of these lawyers.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: And they have long relied on pro bono support.
27:42
And now this chilling effect has really affected the course in
27:46
which immigrant
27:47
SPEAKER_01: advocacy has taken across the country.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: Really powerful reporting.
27:53
really powerful reporting absolutely and the other thing too is
27:56
that there was a
27:57
second Reuters investigation I mean they were hard-hitting
28:00
lightning didn't strike
28:01
once for these reporters another investigation that this group
28:04
of journalists did
28:05
found that at least 11 federal judges and their families have
28:09
faced threats of
28:10
violence or harassment after they ruled against the Trump
28:13
administration across a
28:14
number of court cases involving things like immigration of
28:18
course but also
28:19
SPEAKER_01: education
28:20
the dismantling of government agencies etc and here's why this
28:24
matters is that
28:24
Reuters interviewed US Circuit Judge Richard Sullivan and his
28:28
quote really stuck
28:29
out to me he said that any threats against judges obviously and
28:33
their families is
28:34
ultimately a threat to constitutional government it's as simple
28:38
as that so when you
28:39
threaten judges which are kind of the last offense they hold
28:43
the line in defense of
28:45
SPEAKER_01: the vulnerable
28:46
when you threaten them or subvert the ways in which we see
28:49
judges I mean Trump is
28:50
kind of claiming that they're all progressive hacks and like
28:54
over liberalized when
28:56
you subvert who judges are in the eyes of the people you
28:59
subvert the ways in which
29:00
we consider the rights afforded to us and that was the
29:04
incredible result of this
29:05
investigation was to really unbraid that for readers and they
29:08
did it extremely
29:09
successfully Kelly what's an example of a chillin effect that
29:13
they found in this
29:14
SPEAKER_03: investigation
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:16
So there are many really egregious examples of the ways in
29:20
which the chilling
29:21
SPEAKER_01: effect expressed itself across their investigations.
29:24
But what I'd like to point out is surrounding the plane of 238
29:27
Venezuelans and
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Salvadorans who were sent to Seacott Prison last year.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we all remember this.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: U.S.
29:32
District Judge James Boasberg ruled last April that the Trump
29:36
administration could
29:37
SPEAKER_01: not,
29:38
SPEAKER_01: like,
29:39
they ruled that the Trump administration could actually face
29:42
criminal contempt
29:43
charges for deporting these migrants in defiance of a court
29:47
order and the blowback
29:49
against this judge and his family was pretty immediate and
29:52
pretty severe so Trump
29:53
SPEAKER_01: supporters threatened him online
29:55
SPEAKER_01: They attacked his brother.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: They shared photos of his daughter and threatened her as well.
30:01
And Trump supporters online also demanded that he and his
30:05
family be deported,
30:06
SPEAKER_01: arrested or even executed.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: And it became so severe that the U.S.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Marshals had to assign security detail to Boesburg.
30:17
And he is one of at least 11 judges that face these types of
30:20
threats from the Trump
30:22
SPEAKER_01: administration.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: from Trump supporters, but also public figures.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Elon Musk was party to this.
30:28
He shared photos of this judge's daughter alleging that she was
30:32
getting money from
30:33
SPEAKER_01: nefarious means and that she was helping gang members.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of misinformation surrounding this family.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And this was a judge that was simply doing his job.
30:42
And by the way,
30:43
yeah,
30:43
the Trump administration did move in defiance of a court order.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: And that plane of 238 migrants from Venezuela and El Salvador,
30:51
SPEAKER_01: they ended up being released back to their countries of origin.
30:54
And they are now going through a due process and suing the
30:57
Trump administration for
30:58
SPEAKER_01: what happened to them.
31:00
SPEAKER_03: I mean, rightly so if you ask me.
31:01
SPEAKER_03: There was allegations of extreme torture that went on there.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for digging that up and bringing that down for us.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: So Ben, you also have a couple stories for us to share.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: Tell us what you got.
31:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:13
SPEAKER_03: So this first one,
31:14
SPEAKER_03: I will preface this by saying that this is not a Pulitzer winner,
31:18
SPEAKER_03: but it was a Pulitzer finalist.
31:20
SPEAKER_03: Hey, they made it.
31:21
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's more than a lot of journalists, right?
31:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:25
SPEAKER_03: This is for Gustavo Arellano of the LA Times.
31:28
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love him.
31:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a longtime columnist, a really great writer.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: Really great writer.
31:33
SPEAKER_03: And the headline for this was,
31:37
SPEAKER_03: there's no nice way to deport someone,
31:39
SPEAKER_03: but Trump's ICE is hosting a Cruelty Olympics.
31:42
SPEAKER_03: And I think what really caught my attention with this story is that
31:48
he talked a lot about the brutality that we saw but also the
31:52
theater in which like
31:55
it was displayed by ICE by DHS and by Trump and you know all
31:59
the spokespeople and
32:00
Greg Bovino all the names that we now know right because
32:03
there's a whole other
32:04
aspect to what we saw last summer where they were also making
32:08
propaganda out of
32:09
everything that was happening one of the things that Rayano
32:13
talks about in the
32:14
SPEAKER_03: article is the MacArthur Park Raid,
32:18
SPEAKER_03: or it wasn't,
32:19
SPEAKER_03: it was barely,
32:20
SPEAKER_03: I don't even want to call it a raid.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you recall what was going on that day,
32:24
SPEAKER_03: but essentially there was federal agents had all suddenly approached
32:29
SPEAKER_03: appeared outside of MacArthur Park,
32:31
which is known to have a lot of just people hanging around
32:36
selling things that,
32:37
SPEAKER_03: you know,
32:38
SPEAKER_03: not everybody appreciates selling.
32:40
SPEAKER_03: And it's just kind of that park that everybody knows as like, okay,
32:44
This is one of these places that maybe don't go there at night
32:46
if you're alone.
32:47
But that's not to say that the community around it is a
32:50
beautiful community that
32:52
has done its best to essentially keep each other safe from all
32:54
of this stuff.
32:55
And so this has long been seen as like an area of LA that has
33:00
been plagued by,
33:01
SPEAKER_03: quote unquote,
33:02
SPEAKER_03: air quotes here,
33:02
SPEAKER_03: failed policies of Democrats or things like that.
33:04
SPEAKER_03: This is a really...
33:06
SPEAKER_03: contentious thing for policymakers here.
33:08
And so ICE agents essentially popped up one morning,
33:12
fully geared up,
33:13
fully armed.
33:14
SPEAKER_03: Some were holding rifles.
33:16
SPEAKER_03: There was like an armored truck, things like that.
33:18
SPEAKER_03: But what I'm trying to get at here is that there was
33:21
SPEAKER_03: a videographer there that was also part of the federal agent's crew.
33:26
And they were filming essentially what amounted to like a hype
33:29
reel for them just
33:30
SPEAKER_03: to walk through the park and pretend that they're,
33:33
SPEAKER_03: you know,
33:33
SPEAKER_03: doing something productive with taxpayer dollars,
33:36
SPEAKER_03: right?
33:36
right they essentially it was a show of force right and you
33:40
know the mayor Karen
33:41
Bass showed up and you know she was trying to get them to leave
33:45
and it was this
33:45
whole like circus thing and Trump's administration really
33:48
capitalized on this
33:50
SPEAKER_03: instance because
33:51
SPEAKER_03: I think there was at least two propaganda videos with like,
33:54
SPEAKER_03: you know,
33:55
SPEAKER_03: they're very tacky edited videos of just like,
33:59
SPEAKER_03: you know,
34:00
SPEAKER_03: a guy,
34:01
SPEAKER_03: not a guy,
34:01
SPEAKER_03: an agent holding a rifle and,
34:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
34:04
trying to arrest somebody or dragging somebody away with really
34:08
choice music
34:09
SPEAKER_03: playing in the background.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: And so Gustavo's article really kind of like
34:14
SPEAKER_03: contextualizes all the propaganda that we were seeing,
34:16
but also pairs it with the real impacts of what is being filmed
34:21
in that propaganda.
34:22
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's why it really stuck out to me.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: And honestly,
34:28
I feel like whenever I take a peek behind the curtain of how
34:32
maybe Trump supporters
34:33
SPEAKER_01: are looking at the same story that you and I are seeing
34:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm always taken aback by how different their reality might be.
34:41
The fact that these are videos that were used as propaganda and
34:44
there's so much
34:45
machismo in the way that you discussed how these ICE agents
34:50
were wielding their
34:50
SPEAKER_01: power.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: And I have mentioned this on the podcast a couple of times,
34:55
but we're really talking about two different worlds or two
34:57
different Americas,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: two different realities of what we see
35:01
SPEAKER_01: who deserves to be here, who belongs here in the United States.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: So I'm so glad that Gustavo was a Pulitzer finalist.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: I remember reading his work way back a decade ago at UC Irvine thinking,
35:11
SPEAKER_01: wow,
35:12
SPEAKER_01: what an awesome person.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, honestly, he finally got, you know, this is well-deserved.
35:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: So you have another story to share.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: Is this also based in L.A. or is this based in another city...
35:24
this is in Chicago from the Chicago Tribune and this was a
35:28
winner of the prize and
35:30
I don't know if listeners will recall but in a previous episode
35:33
Kelly talked about
35:34
a apartment complex that was raided by ICE during Operation
35:37
Midway Blitz and so
35:39
SPEAKER_03: this story
35:40
I you know it was kind of funny in studio here we realized that
35:43
this story is
35:44
actually about the same apartment complex and it takes us
35:47
inside what really
35:49
happened during that raid and this was a place where working
35:54
class and also
35:56
formerly incarcerated people lived in the south side of Chicago
36:00
it was took place
36:01
SPEAKER_03: on 7500 South Shore Drive
36:05
SPEAKER_03: So if we recall,
36:06
Operation Midway Blitz was DHS's or ICE's name for essentially
36:11
the raids that took
36:12
SPEAKER_03: place in Chicago.
36:14
SPEAKER_03: This was after LA had happened.
36:16
We had seen,
36:17
I think it was maybe so June,
36:19
I believe it was September when this was going on.
36:22
so a few months after and even LA was still reeling what was
36:25
going on and to be
36:26
clear there were still raids going on when Operation Midway
36:29
Blitz happened in LA
36:31
and so this particular raid is one of the ones there was a lot
36:36
of reporting about
36:36
it but I feel like this article in particular and I think this
36:39
is why they gave it
36:41
the Pulitzer Prize is it takes you inside the apartment complex
36:45
where these
36:45
SPEAKER_03: people's homes were essentially ravaged by
36:49
SPEAKER_03: brutal, brutal actions by the federal administration.
36:53
SPEAKER_03: We see photos of doors that are shot right open.
36:56
SPEAKER_03: We see just descriptions of injuries and like what people,
37:00
SPEAKER_03: like the trauma that they've suffered after this raid in particular,
37:03
SPEAKER_03: in this particular building.
37:04
SPEAKER_03: is completely working class Chicago residents,
37:09
formerly incarcerated people who are already dealing with a lot
37:12
of issues living in
37:14
SPEAKER_03: near poverty levels.
37:15
SPEAKER_03: And so I feel like this story really
37:19
really kind of humanizes the terror that people feel when these
37:24
raids are going on
37:25
SPEAKER_03: because it's not that just ICE shows up and they take people.
37:28
It's that these are lasting effects and impacts that ICE has
37:32
when it takes these
37:33
SPEAKER_03: really brutal actions.
37:34
SPEAKER_03: And again, the media just kind of moves on.
37:36
SPEAKER_03: This was reported on a lot at the time,
37:39
SPEAKER_03: but I didn't see too much of what the lasting impacts of this raid.
37:43
Well thank you Ben for sharing both of those stories when it
37:46
comes to stories about
37:47
ICE and ICE raids or even spaces where justice and
37:52
accountability should take place
37:53
like in court systems it's important to keep these stories
37:57
alive and to resurrect
37:58
SPEAKER_01: the really incredible accountability work that journalists and advocacy
38:02
SPEAKER_01: organizations are doing
38:04
because when we keep them alive we continue to destabilize any
38:08
normalization of any
38:10
of this and for those listening really we both really encourage
38:14
you to read these
38:15
investigations continue to read the news and support your local
38:19
journalists we're
38:20
SPEAKER_01: trying to do the good work and fight the good fight for y'all
38:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you for putting that together.
38:25
SPEAKER_03: I think too,
38:25
SPEAKER_03: just to kind of piggyback off that,
38:28
SPEAKER_03: as local journalists,
38:28
we have the connections often that reporters who parachute in
38:33
sometimes when these
38:34
SPEAKER_03: high profile events happen,
38:35
SPEAKER_03: don't get.
38:36
SPEAKER_03: And so when you follow local publications,
38:39
SPEAKER_03: you can understand like why it's important that local journalism thrives,
38:42
SPEAKER_03: right?
38:43
SPEAKER_03: We have,
38:44
we're closer to the community and we have these connections and
38:46
we have empathy for
38:47
SPEAKER_03: the folks who sometimes are our neighbors.
38:51
absolutely really nicely put so I think that's it for us this
38:55
week thank you
38:56
everybody for listening and as ever you can reach us at
38:59
thisweekonice at gmail.com
39:01
with questions comments or tips if you like this podcast please
39:04
go ahead and share
39:05
it with a friend stay safe look out for your neighbors and
39:08
we'll see you next time