Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Chaos Crushing Altcoins!🔥with Jamie Coutts

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Chaos Crushing Altcoins!🔥with Jamie Coutts · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today we'll dive into tariffs and whether or not they
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: are hitting the all coin market. How this is going
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: to play out for you. We've got a special guest
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: for you, so stay tuned right here. I do want
• 0:08
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  Speaker 1: this process and start to move some of your tokens
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: off of as a centralized exchanges and get started there.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: All right, guys, I want to bring in a special
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: guests today, but before we do that, I want to
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: jump over to a clip, and this is talking about
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: crypto in general and where we are in this current cycle.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Take a look if you think about like when market
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: meltdowns happen in equities, and I send on the boards
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: of some entities that invest in private equity venture capital,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: and it really interesting thing happens. So public equity markets
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: wipe COVID happens, they wipe out its complete bedlam. Privately,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: when the adventure capital don't move that much, it's kind
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: of odd like they kind of just don't move nearly
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: as much as equities. And that's because they're cadence as
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: much slower. They tend to mark to market quarterly. They
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: have more time to absorb information. Crypto is to public
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: equity markets what public equity markets are at venture capital
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: and private equity in that it's so much faster, it's
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: so much more transparent. It operates twenty four to seven
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: near instantaneous settlement. So what I would offer to you,
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if this makes people feel better,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: is what they're seeing in crypto is the reality they're
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: not seeing a watered down version that shuts down at
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: five o'clock every day or prices quarterly. I would rather
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: know what my mark to market is than any one
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: point in time than have that sort of hidden by
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: a slow cadence.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So that being the case, And obviously this is all
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: in reference to the most recent liquidations that we saw
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: in the market, and part of this is really how tokenization,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: how the shift of Wall Street is really underway. So
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: we wanted to bring on an expert, that is Jamie Coates,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: who is the chief crypto analyst over at Real Vision.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: We've had ral on before, so Jamie, welcome in. Appreciate
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: you coming in.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, thanks for having people.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: All right, So let's get into a couple of points
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: real quick. First up, is I want to hit on
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: this tweet right here. Blackrocks CEO Larry Fink says, it's
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: only the beginning of tokenization of everything, So we're going
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: to see money property, our abas are going to hit
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: in here. He calls it a major opportunity for Blackrock,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: saying that the plan is to move beyond traditional finance
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: as a system and really kind of repositioning the entire
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: ecosystem of Wall Street. When you look at that right now,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: is there an appetite that was the coinbas institutional team
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: they're talking about. There is there an appetite for this
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: kind of market right now where we'd have three sixty
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: five twenty four seven liquidity active markets. What are your thoughts?
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: Oh, definitely, I tend to take what Larry Fink says
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: quite seriously. So when he says that he wants to
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: tokenize financial outsets and put them on chain, and he's
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: talking in grand scale, I think he actually means it.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: And the reason why these large Wall Street firms are
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: sort of salivating at the opportunity, at least those ones
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: that are progressive, is that it opens up capital markets
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: and the potential for greater profits. They see an opportunity
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: to disintermediate a lot of the other financial players in
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: the existing system and be right at the center of
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: this new system. So whilst they're still, you know, they
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: are giants in their own right in the traditional system,
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: they're progressive enough to see that this new infrastructure allows
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: twenty four hour access and opens up capital markets to
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: more investors. And I guess there's more utility of financial
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: assets on chain, with being able to use it collateral
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: and do more things with it, and they're just trying
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: to get in first. So I certainly believe that is
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: the intention.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think you know, when you look at
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Black obviously they're kind of the center of the universe
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: as it is right now. I think their position is
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: they don't want to lose that because they see the
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: velocity in which these markets can move, So I guess
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Kudo's to think he's you know, he kind of understands
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: what's going on, so it is definitely playing into it. Hey,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: I want to go to a tweet that you had
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: in here. This is kind of an interesting point. Crypto
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: market was far from euphorik going into this epic crash.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: A couple of points you hit on is exponential adoption
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: of blockchain infrastructure that's going to touch every industry, kind
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: of to what Larry's talking about. But this point right
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: here is the great debasement. Watch the policy moves from
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: the central planners. I love the Spice muff flow reference
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: there in where this is going. But Bitcoin is the
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: king SLV and dominant as far as l wants for
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: exponential growth. Do you think retail is understanding what's going
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: on right now because there is a major shift happening
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: in our monetary system.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think in terms of whether retail is
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: understanding the debasement story, yes, it's still I would say
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: it's it's not as widely known as it should be.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: Otherwise bitcoin would be worth ten trillion dollars today or
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: twenty trillion dollars a day. But you know, we can
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: see the zeitgeist is shifting. Number One, this is an
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: asset that was only investible for the plubs, you know,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: for retail, for the workers, and it's grown to two
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: to three trillion dollars by you know, just through grass
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: roots adoption. Now institutions are starting to work it out.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: And the irony is that the greatest debas is in
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: our economy today, which is the banks or eighty to
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: ninety percent depending on your economy, of all new currency
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: that's printed printed through the traditional banking system. The irony
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: is that the great debases themselves are calling it the
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: great debasement trade. I don't think they fully understand the
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: irony of that, of that statement and what they're saying
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: to their clients. But nevertheless, here we are welcome to
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: the party, guys. So I think it is starting to
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: become more It is something more widely understood the cost
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: of living crisis. After the COVID calamity, I think brought
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: that brought that to bear for more and more people,
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: and it's only going to pick up steam. I mean,
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: there are elements of what's going on in the debasement trade,
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: gold and silver, for example, that look extremely overheated and
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: due for a correction, which would be natural in the
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: course of things. But I think you look at these
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: debasement trades taking decades, and the trajectory that the debt
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: cycle is on, the falling workforce and the gap between
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: GDP growth and debt, which can only be met with
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: extra liquidity, more debasement. I think it's only going to go,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: you know, up and up from here, but there's going
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: to be some very large swings, you know, in the meantime.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it's it's starting to pick up speed.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: How do you play what's happening with Trump's administration right now?
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: These these erratic moves we saw obviously the one that
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: kicked off the most recent epic, you know, shocked to
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: the market. Trump basically says the US is in a
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: trade war with China. This now, this is just happening
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: yesterday and today, and then of course China fires back
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: says it's planning to work with the United States to
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: find a solution on trade. So we're continuously seeing these
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: these models in which the system gets shocked because of
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: tariffs and these threats of tariffs, and then of course
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: you see Wall Street and the crypto markets responding and
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: we even put up a poll here where people were concerned,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: is the Trump manipulation continuing to dump crypto? This is
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: the question is are they willing to say that Trump
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: is still good for the market. How do you play
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: this out? Do you look at this administration being a
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: key driver or more now more of an antagonist.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: In terms of Critso it's still a major driver. The
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: sea change that took place with the Trump administration coming
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: in with a total change of posture, a administration which
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: has people in place as specifically specifically looking at driving
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: technological adoption of AI and also blockchain technologies is monumental.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: The regulatory changes and now the legislative changes, which I
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: would say are half done. There's still a major bill
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: that needs to get through which is looking a little
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: bit more difficult than the Genius Acts, but that is
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: an essential part of that legislative framework that needs to
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: pass soon. And we've just saw obviously we've come out
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: of this liquidation event, and that's why a market structure
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: and proper rules and regulations for the road for a
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: lot of these exchanges needs to be inforce. But to
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: go back to the question, is the Trumpe administration good
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: for crypto markets or the asset class overall. Yes, But
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, let's let's be realistic about what we're dealing
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: with here. We're dealing with the US Empire, which is
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: now thirty seven thirty eight trillion dollars in debt. There's
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: constant government shutdowns, the good debt is growing at twice
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: the economic growth, and you've got a populist government or
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: in a populous president who is volatile by nature. All
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: of these ingredients put together increases volatility overall. And it's
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: where we are in this you know work. When we
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: call a generational change or the fourth turning or whatever
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: it is, it's just it's part of the It's really
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: part of the equation. But the important thing for everyone
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: that I try to drill in to my subscribers at
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Real Vision is that technical there's two basically large secular trends.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: There is the debasement of currency that will likely only
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: accelerate until we get to escape velocity with ai new
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: productivity that comes through, so it's probably three to five
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: years in that time frame. And then there is the
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: adoption itself, so technology growing at one hundred percent compound
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: growth rates, whether it's the number of users in crypto,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: whether it's the number of transactions, whether it's the settlement values,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: stable coins, collateral levels, all of this stuff is growing
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: at such a fast compounding rate that you've got a
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: hyper fast growing technology. But that also invites, with asual
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Alasco said, hyper volatility of itself because it's liquid, it's
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: trading twenty four to seven, it's not like other asset classes.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: So overall, you know, I'm very, very positive about what
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: the Trump administration is doing, but you have to match
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: that with the personality of Donald Trump himself, who can
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: do some pretty wild things.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's natural for crypto. I feel like
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: this is feels like this guy was born for crypto
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: in terms of the craziness and that he's bringing into
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: the market. Because of course, if you saw what happened
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, we've seen everything from Luna to Celsius,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: you name them out there in terms of the craziness.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Now you've got Binance founder cz hitting on this. Maybe
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: we haven't hitten and this is happening after Binance in Hyperlika.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Just as a reminder, they were going at it over
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: the weekend about this shock to the system. But he's
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: hitting on it right now, saying that we're not even
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: in the real bull market. Yeah, what is your opinion
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: on it? You think? Would you agree with CZ? Or No?
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what timeframe cz is referring to,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: because a bullmark. What we've got is a structural, secular
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: bull market in these assets. But we've got cycles, so
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: he's probably referring to the cycle itself. So I'll interpret
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: it that way and answer it that way. The cycles
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: for crypto, which very from the outset was deemed to
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: be determined by the bitcoind Harving, is actually very much
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: tied to and a result of the debasement or the
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: liquidity cycle. So liquidity and the debasement in the economy
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: picks up speed and slows down depending on I guess
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: it's really tied into the debt of governments and when
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: they have to refinance their debt, and that debt refinancing cycle,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: which is the crypto cycle, which people sort of look
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: at as the four year cycle. The bigcoint Harving cycle
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: dressed up is roughly sort of four years. But everything
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: changed in COVID because when interest rates were brought to
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: zero and they shut down the whole economy. The US
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: government started to borrow at longer a longer maturity, and
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: that sort of extended the cycle. And what that means
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: is we are of the view that bitcoin and also
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: crypto in general hasn't topped yet for this cycle, because
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: we still think that the economy is about to start
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: to hit up in flag up and there's probably more
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: liquidity to come into the system before they have to
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: tighten the screws again like they did in twenty twenty two.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: So we saw obviously they're cutting rates, and cutting rates
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: is bullish full liquidity, but it's not as important as
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: what the central bank does in and around bank reserves
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: and quantitative policy, and they've been tightening really since twenty
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: twenty two. Yesterday or the day before, I believe, I
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: think it was POWE came out and said, look, they
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: may end QT and that was the first real indication
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: that this policy is going to end. And that's liquidity positive.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: It's not the same as QE, but it is a
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: signal to the market that things are starting to get
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: tight in the financial system, sort of behind in the
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: on the bank reserve side, it's not necessarily what we see,
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: but in the financial system, and that just I think
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: is another reason why I think there's still more room
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: to go, because there's still more liquidity expansion. But the
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: problem is there hasn't been as much liquidity pumped into
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: the system because of the over egging it they did
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: in the previous cycle, and so everyone's very upset that
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: crypto hasn't done as well. And that's where you've got
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: to be very discerning about which assets you're invested in.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: That's why that tweet was referring to high quality l once,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: because that's the settlement layer of the new financial economy.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Well, and if you look at that, I'm obviously we'll
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: take a look at a handful with Ethereum and Solana,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: but I want to go into this point right here,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: and I kind of agree with you. I think that
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: this elongation that we're in right now in terms of
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: the liquidity cycle is unique. It's a unique condition that
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: we haven't seen before. Obviously, Trump's administration injects even more
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: into it because of what they are doing from a
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: tariff side of things. That changes the economic structure of
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: what we're seeing here in the US, which usually has
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: ripple effects globally. But when you flip over to outside
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: of bitcoin, move into just quickly over here on what
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Meta mask is doing, because they've launched now hyper liquid
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Powered Perpse on met Mass Mobile. So this is this
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: is another layer of the ability at least for most
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: people because, like you had mentioned earlier, us plubs that
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: are beginning to play these markets, these kind of tool
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: sets have never really been available to us. Now they are.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: What is your opinion of how we're seeing leverage being
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: used in the market right now, especially with this news
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: with Meta Mask. Is that a good thing or a
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: bad thing?
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I'm a conflicted on it because you know, the
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: build up and leverage is inevitable because momentum feeds momentum
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: and that usually ends pretty badly for everyone. So whilst
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: I you know, I love the access to products and
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: the access to new tools for everyone on the planet,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: including people who are outside the West, who can now
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: simply spin on a wallet and get access to a
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: digital asset, a digital asset that will protect them from
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: the ravages of inflation at home and abroad. There's definitely
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: there's definitely two sites that equation with the extra leverage
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: that comes in, you know, through these products. But I
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: think it's just a it's a reflection of the financialization
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: of the global economy. Sports betting, gaming, these are all
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: sort of social phenomenons that are only expanding their truly
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: growth industries. Crypto sort of ties into that in a
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: certain way because people do use it as either an
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: escape either as a form of entertainment, but they also
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: use it obviously to try and dig themselves out of
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: the mess that they're in because of the debatement and
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: what governments are doing with the money printing and all
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: of the other policies that we're subjected to. So it's
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: a double edged sort yeah.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's the key is you look
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: at this leverage that we saw obviously within the market
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: largest you know, correction that we've seen ever in the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: history of crypto. But at the same time, traditional markets
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: really didn't see that much of a drip, and neither
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: did Bitcoin or even ethereum to a certain extent. And
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: if you look at the two majors, and I want
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: to get back to the question on whether or not
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: tariffs have hit this all coin cycle in a big
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: way or for this is just eke you know, elongated out.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: The one reason is typically in all coin you know runs,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: it's usually led by ethereum. And a comparison is between
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: what's going on with Bitcoin and ethereum. You've got to
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: look at the two champions of this, one being sailor
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: around what's happening with micro strategy. And now you've got
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Tom Lee coming in from bitmin, who is a digital
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: asset treasury that's really stoking the fires on ETH. I
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: want to play a clip for you and then I'll
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: get to kind of your opinion on whether or not
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: ETH can make it into a position to move forward
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: in the alts. Let me go to that clip.
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: Tom Lee has emerged a probably the most visible influential
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: spokesperson in the entire ethereum ecosystem in a matter of months,
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: maybe a matter of weeks. What does that represent? Well,
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: first of all, they have ten billion dollars of capital.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: Second of all, Tom Lee is part of the Wall
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: Street establishment. He was never part of the cryptoic establishment.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: You saw Wall Street merges with the crypto economy, capital
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: flows because it trusts Tom Lee. And then the next
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: thing you know, you have Tom Lee having conversations with
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: the early ethereum on trepreneurs with the metalics of the world,
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: you know, and the like. And what's interesting there is
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: that entire movement becomes commercialized, institutionalized, legitimized, rationalized, becomes a
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: bit older, a bit more credible.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: All right. So, I mean I think that was a
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: nice way of saying he respected Tom. You know, you
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: never know what saying well.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I was just going to say, look,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: he's definitely got his facts wrong on Tom Lee coming
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: into crypto recently. Tom Lee was the person who changed
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: my mind back in twenty seventeen, oh sorry, twenty eighteen
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: in the bear market, and his whole company pivoted to crypto,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: and he lost a ton of clients because he was
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: talking about crypto in twenty eighteen when no one wanted
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: to touch it. Nevertheless, yeah, it was a it was
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: a complementary talk.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: I would say, you look at that and just at
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: the ETH reserves right here. This has continued to fly
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: versus ETH ETFs. So my questions to you are twofold. First,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: do you think the eth dats, the digital asset treasuries
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: are going to continue this trend right now in terms
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: of outperforming the ETFs moving forward. What are your thoughts.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's going to
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: be I think they'll probably outperform, but I don't I
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: don't think the trade is as straightforward as it seems.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: I see m nabs compressing. I think there was a
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: time in this market when these dats really started to
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: explode on the scene for first mover advantage, where m
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: nabs were fat or expanded like trading several times over
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: the NAV. They gave them the leeway to issue a
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: ton of equity to buy more of the underlying asset.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: So I think the leverage on the Ethereum and some
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: of the other digital asset companies is such that yes,
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: they will outperform eth but because they're I mean, they've
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: got a productive asset as well, so they've got a
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: yield so that it's going to be attractive, and I
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: think that alone gives them an edge over the ETFs.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Maybe some ets, sorry, some m NAB expansion could be
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: possible as we get through the rest of the cycle
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: and things improved into early next year. But I don't
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: think personally for me, that the DAT trade is going
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: to be as compelling as it was earlier. This year.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, because of that, we've got Solana and even
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: SWI who are setting up in a variety of different ways.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Do you think that Solana needs a Tom Lee type,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: you know, to go out there and kind of champion
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: its whole position.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Well, there is a there is essentially an equivalent, but
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: he doesn't have the same stature outside of crypto. So
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: the sea of multi of multi coin coin within crypto
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: circles is very, very prominent, and it's definitely increasing his
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: visibility outside. He's not the same as Tom Lee. Tom
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Lee was Jamian Morgan's equity strategist for like twenty years,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: So yeah, potentially, But look, I mean this is you know,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: this is an l one with a smaller overall base,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: and so it's you know, it's going to attract new
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: people in time, and I think that's going to have
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: the same sort of notoriety or popularity on Wall Street eventually.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: There is definitely cheerleaders of the Solana ecosystem from guys
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: like bit Wise, like Matt Hogan, but of course they're
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: talking about it from the perspective of selling products around it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: But look, I don't think I'm personally not a huge
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: fan of the personality cults that arise in the space.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: But it's just a it's human nature and it's natural
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: to see it. So I guess it would be good
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: for Solana, but I don't think it's needed. Like you
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: look at the numbers and look at how the ecosystem
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: is growing, They're doing, you know, extremely well, and those
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: ETFs will likely get approved in the next couple of
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: weeks and then we'll start to see retail flows flow
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: in and we'll have our third major crypto asset or
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: crypto network accessible to everyone through us ETFs.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think the point you have to
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: look at is for the next wave of adoption. Now,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: if it's institutional, sure, I don't think you know, a
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: salesperson so to speak, is needed out there. But once
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: you get into private offices, you get into a high
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: networth individuals, businesses holding assets which are all going to
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: be coming down. Then you get into of course retail.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: You know, they need you know, a Jensen, they need
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: a n Elon, they need a Mark Zuck, you know,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: they need that person that they can kind of point
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: to in this new, you know, fangled thing called crypto.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: And Tom Lee is right now and I think Michael
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: does a you know, Sailor does the same thing. He
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: represents bitcoin very well. So I think Solana needs someone. Man,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know who it's going to be, but I
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: think they need somebody, or is Solana needs someone going forward?
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: You got this news right here, Solona is now live
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: on the uniswap web app. So that means that you've
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: got an eth ecosystem now starting to suck in a
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: little bit of the Salon attraction right there. So this
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: is the point I'm getting at is with all this
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: competitive nature within the market, it feels like we've got
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to have you know, these people out there championing these
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: chains for sure.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: Look, it doesn't hurt provided the person who's championing the
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: ecosystem doesn't represent you know, sort of or hidden risks. Right.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: So the thing I'm always worried about with Sailor is,
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: and I love Sailor, is that he becomes such a
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: key person that he himself becomes the risk at the moment.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: That's not the case because he's been a champion. He's
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: been so influential and prominent in a way that's really
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: grown the bitcoin, the bitcoin knowledge and understanding and accessibility
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: so for now it's not an issue. But yeah, I mean,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: what was interesting about what you just mentioned there with
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: the uniswap is is a sort of a thesis that
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: I've been building for a little while now, and other
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: people have been talking about it, but I haven't started
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: to shift any of my sort of investment decisions towards
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: this thesis. But when you look at a uniswap is
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: an application, it's now built its own chain, it's now
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: doing cross chain swaps. You know, my view is in
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: the future, I think you're going to see the abstraction
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: away from the or the abstraction of chains from our thinking.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: When we're dealing with crypto. We'll think about the product.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: We'll think about the business that's in the ecosystem, whether
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: it's a wallet or a specific action, whether it's lending
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: or credit or swapping like with uniswap and that, and
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: because they'll be multi chain, they will be that the
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: chain discussion becomes less and less prominent. We're not there
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: by any stretch. This is probably a decade long sort
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: of evolution of the ecosystem. But you know, the infrastructure
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: shouldn't be that interesting if it works, and if it
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: has the characteristics of credible neutrality and decentralization, and it's
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: fast and it's cheap. Then we start to think about
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: sort of business on top of it. But I mean
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: that's just that it hasn't been playing out right, That
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: hasn't really been playing out in terms of an investment
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: thesis of like buying the DeFi applications versus the the
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: l ones themselves. But I think in time that's where
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I see the market evolving, and that was a great
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: example of it.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to revisit your tweet here because this
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: is very interesting. Debasers start pitching the debasement trade, all right,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: so to clients.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: So this is talking.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: About big capital. Explain to me what would actually make
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: this happen. Do you think they're doing it now? Do
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: you think the Wall Street guys are out there really
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: getting in and doing this today?
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's evident they are. They're sending around research.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: It's using the term the debasement trade, and a famous
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: fixed income a fund manager was talking about it as well.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: So it's it's percolated up into the consciousness of Wall Street. Now,
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: I've worked in Wall Street, so I always pause when
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: I start to see the obviousness start to be expressed
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: in the large Wall Street companies in terms of how
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: they're pitching or selling something, and that usually it usually
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: has a timing impact which is dubious, like are we
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: sort of near the end of the trade? Have they
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: positioned early and now they're sort of, you know, flogging
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: the same trade to their clients as exit liquidity. That's
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: just my sort of cynical, cynical sort of perspective on everything.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: But I don't think it's the end of that trade,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: even though in gold and some of the other precious
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: metals which are debasement assets or anti debasement assets, I
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: should say things are looking extremely heated and positioning is
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: at levels which I would be wanting some caution on.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: But in terms of big kind that's certainly it's not overheated,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: and I don't think that trade is over. But I
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: think it's interesting that it is starting now to get
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: it's the terms that we've been using for a decade
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: to describe what is happening is now being used at
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: the highest sort of echelance by Wall Street companies, and
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: that just tells me that I think the zeitgeist is shifted.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Well and I'm in agreement with that. The interesting thing
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: to me, though, is this demographic that we're dealing with
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: now is quite a bit different. It's no longer the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: boomers and even the Gen X is, you know, my
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: generation that are dealing with that position right now, now
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: we're talking about millennials and eventually what will be gen Z.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: They've already kind of the ship is saled. They're already
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: down the debasement trade model pretty significantly, So I don't
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: know if they're gonna be paying much attention there. I
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: think they're gonna be watching Eth. They're gonna be watching
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of these l ones, you know, and how
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: they play into this all coin market and whether or
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: not we get a run on this. I want to
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: close with the question that we kind of opened with,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: and that is the future of an all coin season.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: You know, ETH hasn't necessarily had its day in the sun.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Bitcoin based on a lot of analysts still think there's
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: a lot left. Tom Lee's out there pushing like crazy.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Do you think that ETH is going to lead us
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: into the promised land in terms of an all coin
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: season around these l ones, Solana, Avalanche, Sweet, you name them.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean if you look at there are a
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: couple of other l ones that have done, you know,
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: really quite well, like if you look at bmb's all
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: time highs. You know, tron is a essentially just a
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: one use case chain and it's not credibly neutral like
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: other chains. Let's just say the large l ones, you know,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: they have done a little bit better than Eth. But
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: Ether has been outperforming in the last sort of six months.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: So what I've been I guess what I've been discussing
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: through really this entire cycle, is that this cycle was
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: always going to be different because the type of investor
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: coming in, even though it's been a slow drip so far,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: is a more discerning investor being the institutions. Institutions move
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: the capital. Yes, there's been dats on lower quality assets,
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: but where did they start. They started a bitcoin ethereum,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: and that is because and sorry Solana, and there's even
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: been BnB. There have been ones in the lower tail
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: as well that they're not sort of at the you know,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: the number two hundred asset, it's more like number sort
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: of ten asset. It's simply a reflection of which assets
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: have product market fit and have users and have activity,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: because that is the signal that this asset is going
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: to last two years, five years, ten years down the line.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: It's already showing that, you know, people want to use it,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: and it's generating cash flows off the back of it
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: which are returned to validators, which make the economic investment
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: in that network a worthwhile investment in the first place.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: So you know, it's people have to be discerning and
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: focus on the assets that have the users and have
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: the activity. And so it's been a very narrow old
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: coin rally or old coin season, if you want to
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: call it that. I think the broad based rally that
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: we saw in the last ball market is not to
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: be repeated. There is a lot of inflated no PMF
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: coins and assets out there that need to essentially die,
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: and there is a lot of attention being diluted through
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: these other coins and into NFTs and all sorts of
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: other sort of djen activity on chain, and that ultimately,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: whilst they could pump and provide short term returns, is
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: extremely hard to pick and won't deliver long term returns.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: So Wall Street comes in, looks at these assets and
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: go right, we know this is the future of finance.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: How do we invest where we invest with the models
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: and the thinking that have served us well in traditional finance,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: which is where are the users, where are the cash flows?
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Here are the l ones that actually got millions and
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: millions of transactions every day with real viable applications that
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: are profitable, like the businesses inside the economy are profitable,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: We'll invest there. And so the number twelve, number fourteen,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: number twenty, number fiftieth, l one that's competing is not
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: going to get a look in. And that's why that
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: tail feels so terrible, and that's why the breadth in
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: the rally in the cycle has been so narrow.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it's also I think the stack is
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: changing because it used to be mostly cryptonative. That was
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: really causing the stack to move in terms of how
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: we saw all coin season react, which was in twenty
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: twenty one, these blow off tops, these big, huge runs.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Now it's a different dynamic. You've got Wall Street playing
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: into the game. They're influencing a lot of people now,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: which is the bigger play I think is the influence
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: on the network effect on many of these l ones
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: that you're mentioning. So I'm in agreement with you there, Hey, Jamie,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: we got to get you back on the show. I
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: love to kind of pick the brains of people who
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: are really diving in deep on this because understanding where
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: this market is going is very important right now. This
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: might be the most critical time of getting into something
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: early because we are setting up for a pretty big
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: run here. So thanks for coming in today. I appreciate it,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: my pleasure, Pul, thanks.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: For having me.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: You bet all right, You guys, make sure and join
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: the Diamond Circle. That's our own private group. You guys
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: can jump in very easily. It's free. We leave a
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: link down below. Catch me out there on X at
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Paul Baron. We'll catch you next time right here on
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: The Paul Baron Show.