Latest / The Redeemed Backslider / A Conversation with Bishop Jim McPhaill #TRB Episode 56

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A Conversation with Bishop Jim McPhaill #TRB Episode 56 · The Redeemed Backslider

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: With your host, Kathy Chestane, Christian-based psychotherapist in the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is dedicated to those who are wondered who are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and freedom in Jesus.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm your host, Kathy Chastain.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: And with me today in the studio is my bishop, um, brother Jim McPhell.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: He has uh been the pastor and now is the bishop over my home church, the Pentecostal Lighthouse.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: And he has known me uh I don't even know how many years for sure since I've been at least 11 years old, but I think before that as well.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_04: So um he's had a front row seat to my ins and outs and backs and forth um in my walk coming back to the Lord.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm super, super grateful he said he would do this podcast with me.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: And so um, Brother McPhail, welcome to the studio.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to be here.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: So um uh just to start off with a question, a couple questions that's not on the list.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um at Gateway, that was our home church, you were associate pastor of right?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: When when we were there?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: I what I remember is your going away party, and I do not know why I remember that, but I remember when they announced that you guys would be leaving and you said it was to go evangelize.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: So when did you arrive there to be the associate pastor?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know what year?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was I had been a member of that church, and then I went to Bible college in St.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, Minnesota for three years.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I met Sister McPhail.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: We got married, came back to Visalia, and it must have been early 70s.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: Were you there?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_04: Were you in that church when my mom and dad came in and got the Holy Ghost?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: Because you would have you would have been roughly their age.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um you're a little bit younger, I think, than my parents.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: Do you remember them?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember, yeah.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I remember your mom and dad, and I remember, you know, uh Ron and Sue and you know, a bunch of we were all kind of in the you know uh in the same time frame.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So my relationship with your family goes back to the to that church.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because how old were you when you would have left to go to Bible college?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was what 21 when I received the Holy Ghost.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: I would have been early 20s.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had graduated from Fresno State, and then I went to Bible college in St.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, Minnesota.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that was three years.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Then I came back and uh got more involved with the church, and that was when I was associate pastor for like two or three years.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: Because I I remember, I remember when, and I don't know why I remember just the weirdest details, but I I always knew that you had gotten your degree in psychology.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_04: Did you have ambition to go into that field before you went to Bible college?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when I was younger, I had uh, you know, felt the call to the ministry.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when I started out, we were living, I was living with my family in San Jose.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was started out at San Jose State.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I got involved, I well, I originally I started out with a pre-theology.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna get a pre-theology major, and then wherever that led.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I got involved, and uh pretty soon I thought maybe I'll just do the psychology thing.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of started moving away from the ministry.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then um I was a junior in college and I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and that turned everything back around again.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I went ahead and finished my degree and then went to Bible college for three years.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_04: You were kind of late getting the Holy Ghost.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: 21.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: But you had been how old were you when your mom and dad came into church?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, my dad was about in his late 40s, so it was after I got back from Bible college.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was probably 30.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: When he came in?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: So you came in first?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, well I came in first, then my brother, then my sister, and wow.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: My mom and dad, they kind of took a little longer to get there.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: They did.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, my dad, you know, his my grandma Ruth, who was the stalwart, you know, uh faithful saint of God, and prayed for us all those years, prayed for us, prayed for him.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So he knew about this before we did, before we were born, before he was married.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he just turned away from God, went his own direction.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So when we got the Holy Ghost and with all this, it all came up again for him.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: He had to face it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: He was fighting it, he became very um difficult to live with.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: He did not want to accept what he was experiencing through it, because he knew.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: Did you ever did you ever get to talk to him about that?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: Why he was so angry, why he resisted for so long?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: He resisted because he wanted to do his own thing.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's the thought is that if I serve God, I can't do what I want.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: But that's not really true at all.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, it isn't.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: But he um he was under, you know, he had a job that he was under a lot of pressure from, and he was into alcohol, and he they smoked and all this.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was more to deal with the stress and everything.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: But once he received the Holy Ghost, I mean he never looked back, he never had any regrets.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was just getting him to the place where he would finally.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've told this at church before.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, one day he was uh at work and the Lord just spoke to him and said, He said, You're a fool.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: He said, This is your last chance.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so he heeded that voice.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he did.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was at well, I was at Bible school, so he called up my brother and said, I gotta get baptized right now.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, right now.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't couldn't wait till the weekend.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it was Brother Schumach's church in San Jose.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they took him down there and uh baptized him, and uh then he started seeking for the Holy Ghost, and my mom was seeking for the Holy Ghost, and I think he was more worried that he might get it and she wouldn't.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So she got it, and then once she got it, he got it.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think he was concerned for her.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, he loved her.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: But once he got the Holy Ghost, he he never he was as hard for God as he was in his own way earlier.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so when you were at the first Pentecostal church in Visalia before you left, because I didn't realize, and we have, you know, we're over a hundred years old, but I didn't realize how many pastors had come and gone from that church.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_04: Were you there prior to um Brother Kiggins coming in as pastor, or were you attending there was he already there when you started going?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when I came into church, he was already the pastor.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you didn't have experience with didn't have any experience with some of those other pastors, although, you know, living with my grandma for a while, I lived here for a number of years, she knew those pastors.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: She was there when they were there.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: She would talk about them sometimes.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we had uh we had several.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_04: You've been the longest, Brother McPhel.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, in those days, uh the it was not uncommon for uh a church to have a pastor for two or three years, they'd move on, and then somebody would come through.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that had that changed right about the time that he was there, and then when I came, because churches found out that if they have a pastor that stays, the church they have a relationship, and the church can grow and do a lot more because they're not always adjusting to a new personality, a new pastor, their ways.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been beneficial for the church, and most churches today are, you know, pastors have been there for a while.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it has proven to be very beneficial.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well, when I look back, you know, even though I didn't come to church a lot while you were pastor, I was in and out.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it is comforting to know your faithfulness and how long you have stayed and and endured.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: I can't imagine what that could be like for you.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: I can't imagine what it could be like as a pastor, anyways, knowing all the struggles saints go through.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but those are some of my questions that I have for you.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: So I I just thank you.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for all of that faithfulness.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's uh an unappreciated and often overlooked um thing we just take for granted from our pastoral ship.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So well, things, you know, every church has issues and problems because they're people.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: When you have people, you have things.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the mo one of the greatest things, and sometimes the only thing sometimes you can do is be faithful, whether you feel like it or not.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: You just show up, be there for yourself, for God, for the church, for people that are going through things.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um you don't want to, you know, if things get difficult, you don't want to um abandon ship.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I could never do that.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not in me to do that at all.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember Brother Price one time said that uh he was district superintendent, and ministers, pastors would call him and say, you know, I think the Lord's through with me here.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I need to go somewhere else.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And he would tell you, okay, or ask him, well, so what's going on?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a problem here, a problem there.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: He says, All right, you get everything fixed up, and when you get it fixed up, if you still feel the same, go.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, if God, if it's God, you're gonna feel that way.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes if it's not God and it's a situation, you think it's God, but it's not.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just you.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I I j I love being failed.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, being faithful and being there and being a part of this church that long has been one of the greatest things uh of my life.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: It really I love by Celia.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love this church.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just uh it's a blessing uh for me to continue on as bishop and be involved.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: It just means a lot to me.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I I see you sometimes smile, you know, like I I can see so you don't let a ton of emotion show through, but I watch kind of closely, you know, when Jeremy will say something, I think, oh, I wonder what Brother McPhil's thinking right now, you know, because he's he's pushed the envelope a little bit, I think, um, in places that you would have maybe not.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: And but I see you kind of smile.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: I it feels like you've been really happy about that or proud of that, or just enjoying that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've said this to the church, but I couldn't I could not be more uh thankful and more pleased with what you know he is doing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a hundred percent.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's the one that God has chosen.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um we have a great relationship.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've loved Jeremy for a long time and his family, and uh he's just do he's doing a great job.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's nice, it's been wonderful.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_04: So um when you look back over more than 40 years of ministry, I think you retired at 44 years, was it?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think forty-four?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right in there somewhere.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: What have you learned about why people leave church?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_04: Whether they leave, leave, or they backslide and walk away from God.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any well usually if people uh uh backslide, in my experience and the way I see it, is I don't think most people that backslide plan on backsliding.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think people uh most people that backslide they they they drift and they don't realize that they're drifting.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like uh you have a flock of sheep and you know the sheep are feeding together, and you have a sheep that kind of wanders off, gets you know, wanders off and doesn't realize or recognize how far they are off until they're far enough off to realize that they're not where they used to be or even where they want to be.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it I think it's uh I think it spiritually it's gotta be kind of uh uh not maybe frightening, but uh a wake-up call to realize that all of a sudden they're out here.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then the problem is now how do I get back?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think about the parable uh Jesus going after the one lost sheep, the 90 and 9.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that he understands that we're human and there are things we get sidetracked with sometimes, sometimes on purpose, sometimes unintentionally, and yet his burden and concern, he loves the backslider, he wants them back in the house of God, and he can go after them.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And even if they can't find their way back alone, they could find their way back with his help.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then there are of course others that backslide because they want to taste the world and they have curiosity, yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then they do something and they think, well, now I've messed up.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get back now?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because they're embarrassed and ashamed of themselves.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so then they have to deal with that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think you're right about the drift.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: I've thought about that concept a lot.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I read an article once about a um was a different denominational pastor who became an atheist.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: And in the article, someone was interviewing them and they asked, you know, what caused you from going from being a minister to being an atheist, and their reply was it was a slow drift.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I've never forgotten that because I think you're right, like it can just get away from us so easily and we don't even know it.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: You just start drifting and it's so imperceptible.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and then you don't realize it until you're a hundred miles from where you wanted to be.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I really believe most backsliders, that's why I think that's I mean, it's hard to walk away from the Lord.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think most backsliders it's it's a drift, but then there's temptation.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Some people yield to temptation, and then some people get in a fight with somebody in the church, and it could cause them to make uh a bad decision.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, people are people, and sometimes they have disputes.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I have found that if there is a they need to solve it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have seen cases where somebody was upset with somebody, so they left the church and they went to another church here and there.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually maybe they came back.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the issue is not necessarily them, it's the kids.
• 17:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because you take your kids from uh they know everybody, they're involved, they're connected, and then all of a sudden you're over here, they don't know anybody.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Mom and dad, we're mature, you know, they're able to handle the changes and everything, and so they come back, but sometimes it's hard for the kids to make that journey because they they're confusion, it's too disruptive for them.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's better just to do what the Bible says and take care of it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're gonna have to take care of it eventually, anyhow.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: You might as well do it up front.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think that's most cases.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I uh there are people that that's just you know a small percentage of what happens to people.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when you hear the word prodigal, and I'm gonna throw in backslider, uh, because those words are both interchangeable, I think.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um what does that mean to you after all of these years?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, a prodigal, a backslider is well, actually, I like the word prodigal better.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: I I I kind of tongue in cheek named this the Redeemed Backslider because that was my identification.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well, no, it's more direct.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for so many years.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's more direct, but I I think I like the word prodigal because it's scriptural, you know, the prodigal.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but as far as uh what was the question?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: What does that mean to you after all of these years when you hear those words?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, to me, um a prodigal would be somebody that uh was not a new convert.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was not, it would be somebody that had been stable in church, lived for God for a number of years, and for whatever reason got away from God.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think a new convert can't be prodigal because they're still, you know, working their way through being saved and all of that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: So to me, that's what a prodigal is.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and Brother McPhel, I just wanna I just want to note your answer is filled with love and not at all um not at all any sort of condemnation like so many prodigals misunderstand and misinterpret a a pastor would feel.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's that they were with the Lord and they just kind of got away.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think that's that's so important because there's you know I think there is a big gap in what prodigals think versus what the ministry actually feels about them.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So oh I yeah, I think so.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean uh to me, I mean, uh what good does it do to be judgmental and this?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's certainly unproductive.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in my heart, I've always had a soft spot for prodigals.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've always, you know, wanted to do whatever I could to help them get back because I believe most of them were they really want to come back.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they needs they need to be able to come back, like the story of the prodigal in the Bible.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: The father was welcoming and uh the the elder brother wasn't, but that's another story.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just saying uh I think that's how we should be, because I believe that's how the Lord is.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, he definitely is, yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, have the reasons that people leave leave changed over the decades, or do you see the same core wounds and struggles repeating themselves in different forms?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's pretty much the same.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: People are the same, same, same nature, same problems, same.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Different circumstances, but yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: The same issues.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: Hey everyone, I wanted to tell you about a new resource.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: I recently wrote a book.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: A children's book called Where Did That Come From?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's about intrusive thoughts.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're an adult, you know that you have intrusive thoughts and children have intrusive thoughts, but they don't have the cognitive ability to understand them like we do as adults, but they really, really affect kids.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so I wanted to write a children's book that adults could use to help the children in their life, whether it's a Sunday school teacher, a pastor, a parent, a school counselor, a school teacher, or even other therapist.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to create a resource that allows us to talk to kids about the thoughts that they're having, but also teach kids how they can overcome those thoughts.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: This is a Christian-based book.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_04: So the solution is going to be a Christian-based solution.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm not trying to sell a ton of books.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's not the purpose for me writing the book.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: The purpose is to create a resource that we could use to help more children.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so again, it's called Where Did That Come From?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: And you can find it on Amazon.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: And there is a link attached below.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: So I hope you'll get that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_04: I hope it helps and hope it would be a valuable resource to you.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, what have you seen happen inside families when one member walks away from faith or from the church?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it depends who walks away.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: If mom and dad, mom or dad, walk away, then it's easier for if mom walks away, it's easier, and that doesn't have to happen, but it's easier then for dad to walk away and then for the kids to walk away.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've got a family that's in church and one of the children might walk away, it's you know, I don't I don't think that's gonna affect the family.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna stay in.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Be stable and stay in and try to, you know, pray for and love their child.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: That yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I want to highlight to the people at home what he just said.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_04: He said if mom walks away, often the husband follows and then the kids.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think the wife has such great influence over her family.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: And we often see the women come into church without the spouse, but the spouse generally follows the woman.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: But that's very interesting what you said.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: If she leaves, the kind of the whole family falls with her.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it is true, I think that usually the the wife, the mother, uh finds God first.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then that can also be a challenge then for the husband, because it uh he doesn't want it to look like he's just following after his wife.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's a bigger issue.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's not following his wife, he's following the Lord.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the enemy can play with your mind.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think about Don McDonald, that is such a great miracle.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is just one of the greatest things I've ever seen.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I her faithfulness all those years, and he's such a great guy.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: So uh he's talking about a couple in our church.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: So ri Sister Renee McDonald came into the church, and how many years was she in before her husband came?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, probably 40.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: 40 years.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: She was faithful, raised her children in church.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and um, and Don has been, he got the Holy Ghost.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: Is it been six years maybe now ago?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Been a while.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: He is just he's just a great solid, he just loves God, he's just a great person.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's just I'm so glad.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_04: That that's a I I think those are the stories also that need to be told because that the delay in waiting for your prayer to be answered can be long.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: Hers was 40 years, but God did the work.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: If she had given up, who knows?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: If that had happened.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for sure, if she had just quit going to church, I'm sure that the influence would have gone.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not her, that's not her nature.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: She she loves God.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: She just, I remember when I first came, you know, they her and Sister Judy teaching them a Bible study.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they just been there ever since.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: Long time ago.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, have you seen different people who leave because of sin, people who leave because of hurt, or people who leave because of confusion or disillusion disillusionment?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: Disillusionment.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think you answered that already.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: Both.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: Kind of all of that.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how often I want to talk about disillusionment for a minute.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I think that was my initial uh that was my initial reason when I was younger is not understanding why God didn't answer this prayer that I knew he could and would.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: I just my naive faith, you know, and believing him.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't know how to understand, um, I didn't know how to understand that he wouldn't just do everything, you know, because I was naive in in my walk.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: But do you see people that get disillusioned very frequently?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: Do they come and talk with you about it?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: Do they ask for help around it, or do they just kind of stay to themselves, form their own conclusions, and make their choice?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, some people handle things differently, some people just work it out themselves.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, people that have prayers that have not yet been answered or maybe not been answered, you know, it does help to talk.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does help to counsel and realize that.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know why God answers this prayer and not that prayer.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's got a but he's got a plan.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean he's got a reason behind it, and he's not always didn't always tell us.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where faith and trust comes in.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think I think sometimes our faith can be weak, but we still have to trust him.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have to say, I know God's got this for some reason.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And people can be disillusioned, but I don't know that I've ever dealt with anybody that was disillusioned in that area that left church.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Most people they handle it and they work through it, and and the Lord helps them.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: I could see like new converts or even prodigals who come back expecting things to work out a certain way.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: And when things don't work out the way they think they're supposed to, they lose faith a little bit and take a big step backwards.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that can happen.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, over the years, what has surprised you the most about people who eventually come back?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: What has surprised me the most sometimes has been who came back.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: People that you never thought, you know, you thought they're gone, but uh they're not gone.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's been you know, the the the people themselves that you feel like, well, they're probably not coming back.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then they do.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing it's just you know that's been the biggest surprise.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think about you know, Keith for one, and Reed and others that you know that's that's something else.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's nothing but God.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is working a miracle, it is totally, totally.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a pleasant surprise.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: I bet it must do your heart good as as the pastor who's known them for so many years.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_04: I like to be surprised that way.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um are there are there still names and faces that come to mind um that you haven't seen come back?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: Are there people that you still think about?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: People that I still think about, still pray for.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I bet.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: How do you carry the sorrow of people leaving uh without becoming bitter, defensive, or emotionally closed off?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think that'd be so hard, Brother McPhil.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it is.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's different after 40 years than it is your first year or two.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the hardest things to deal with or overcome is the fact that you cannot take it personally.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think most pastors, because you pour yourself into the church and it's you're so involved and it's like family that when somebody, you know, leaves, you you have to not take it personally.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the hardest things to deal with.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you take it personally, you're gonna deal with probably bitterness, or you're gonna deal with self-doubt, you're gonna deal with a lot of things, but you have to just realize that for whatever reason they made that decision.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you just have to trust God, keep yourself, you know, prayed up, and you know, you sometimes you have to pray through those situations for yourself.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine how difficult it would be carrying that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_04: And this wasn't on my notes, but you know, when you took over our church after Brother Schumache, you know, he was just our interim.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um how much did you deal with the aftermath of the church split?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: Because there was so much woundedness from the church split.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_04: But I also feel like the core group of us was also very strong in our faith because we had such dependency on God during that season.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: But did you deal with did you deal with the that split very much when you came and took over the aftermath of that?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the the part that I probably had to deal with the most was um you can't go through that kind of a of a tragic, difficult situation, especially with church, because it's like with you know, church, you're so involved and you're invested spiritually and emotionally, and and so when something like that happens, you know, especially uh it's devastating.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so people uh are hurt, yeah, and they're wounded, and they don't trust.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And those were the kind of things that I had to, you know, yeah, work with and help, you know, through.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it took probably four or five years for a lot of that to heal, to settle down.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but because they were good people and they loved God, it you know, they were able to survive more than survive, yeah, but make it through.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: So when I was little, for the people that don't know, um the church Pentecostal lighthouse is a remnant of an original church that split and the pastor fell into sin, and a lot of things happened.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_04: And um, so uh Bishop McPhel stepped in.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: We had an interim pastor VF Shoemake for about a year, but then Bishop McPhel stepped in and took over the church.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_04: And um the the difficulty is trusting leadership again after a pastor falls, and I've said it on the podcast before, I think that's that's also the difficulty of prodigals is trusting in general, you know, um, because I think so many prodigals have wounds that often is not from the church.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: The church might amplify those wounds a bit because we just lack the understanding.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but but I think coming back, trust is difficult, you know.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um what what did you what did you learn in those four and five years of having to sort of regain the trust of the people because it wasn't you they weren't trusting, it was anyone in leadership.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well they yeah, to it's a difficult thing to regain trust.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: It takes time and experience, and so just being there and just going through it and realizing they're hurt, they're healing, they're this and they're that, and not overreacting, and not, you know, just kind of being there to help everybody do what I could in time it, you know, things people healed up and they began to trust, and but it took uh four or five years to get down the road on that.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: I can imagine for you, I mean, you definitely had a lot of uh temperance and and God had to just really strengthen you because that that would have been so hard as a pastor.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it he he did, and it was, but the thing in my favor was that was my home church, and I had gone, and when I came back, I knew most everybody.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh it made it it made it easier and it made it harder because I was just you know Jim McPhail, but now I am Pastor McPhail.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that thing, so just a lot of things going on at the same time, but God knew what he was doing, he worked it all out, and I and it's just it's been very good.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we're thankful, Brother McPhail.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I am too.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_04: How has um how has watching people leave shaped the way you preach, counsel, correct, or show mercy?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I cannot say that over the years that people that have left for whatever reason has affected that because I've always tried to preach and teach and counsel uh with grace and mercy.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can you know, if you teach and preach and in love, people can handle stuff a lot better.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And my that's always been my approach.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to grow, I want them to be healthy spiritually, and so I can't say that it's changed anything.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that I've always kind of had that approach, you know.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: I would think that the temptation would be, you know, and and if you're strong in the Lord, it wouldn't be because you have that trust in Him.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_04: But I could see how some pastors would be maybe afraid to talk or preach on certain topics or being worried about how it might be perceived, especially if you had knowledge of things, you know, so it'd be easy to censor yourself often instead of just following the leading of the Holy Ghost and directing your messages.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to um you have to realize, or if there's issues or situations going on, you don't want to you don't want to take care of it over the pulpit.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because people they don't need because then if you do, people are gonna start wondering, hey, what's going on?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there's stuff you just handle in the office, you handle, you know, in personally, and just do what God wants you to do, preach, teach to the church to for them to be, you know, what God wants them to be.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to overcome sometimes your own flesh, or you know, especially if you're upset, you don't want to do get take that spirit to the pulpit.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you really, really have to walk closely to the Lord to make sure none of that's yeah, you really you do, and I'm sure sometimes all of us have let some things slip once in a while, but you know, you have to you have to realize that you know it's God's church and you gotta take care of it for him.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't mean to sound like pontificating, but I mean that's the bottom line.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think you've I think you've led by example, Brother McPhil.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I think that that embodies who you are.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's never I don't think it nothing has ever felt personal or like you've been consistent, I think.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: Very consistent no matter what.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've tried to be, you know, that's that's a benefit.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: To me too.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, did you ever feel judged, questioned, or quietly scrutinized um because you had a child that walked away?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, I can't say that uh that I have most of the feedback or comments.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: People are, you know, on your side, they understand, they're compassionate.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because some of them have their own children that may not live.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like encouragement, faith, that kind of thing.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that we've ever been judged.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: Good.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, you may not, sometimes I can feel that way.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just was curious if you dealt with that and no, in fact, raising our children, you know, we just let them be just we didn't make them anything because we were, you know, I was a pastor.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_04: We just let them grow up be so did you do that, Brother McPhil?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: How I know, I know what it was like in my home with me as backslider for so many years.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how are you able to just extend grace and let it carry, as we were talking about?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: She's been on the podcast a few times.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: How are you able to show the grace and love um when you knew she was away from the Lord?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I know that sounds like a very silly question because parents love, but it's difficult.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_04: The fear of being away from God, I would think, would come in a lot as a parent, knowing what you know.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, our approach was, you know, she was our daughter and we were her parents, and we're gonna love her no matter what.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you turn that off, then it's detrimental.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Besides, you know, it's unhelpful.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you may not agree with what they're doing, but you can still love them.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some parents, if their child's not living for God, feel like, well, if I still love them and still this that I'm condoning.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's not true.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the enemy uses that.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: That was a conversation in our home a lot, is and I hear it in the counseling office too, is they don't know where the line is.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: What is just loving and accepting them where they're at versus am I condoning something, you know, because I I listen or or I, you know, enjoy their stories or whatever.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's such a hard line for Christian parents to know.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's important to maintain a relationship.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm saying.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you can't, I mean, there are depends what they're involved with, is how far you can go.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying you still should have, I think, a relationship with them.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's very important.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so having a child, uh, I think I might kind of know your answer to this, maybe based on what you've already said, but um, having a child that was out of church or you know, in a position of a prodigal, what did that reveal to you about the difference between public ministry and private life or private sorrow around that?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like, did you have to put on a different um
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: face in and being public with your ministry no I I don't feel like I did I mean we just still loved her still had a relationship with her and still took care of the church and did that uh there was no dual relationship thing or anything it didn't affect I mean it affected us personally in our hearts and for yeah seeing her but as far as you know but you didn't never let that show yeah you kept all of that private yeah yeah um what did you learn about loving a child without enabling condemning or cutting off you kind of spoke to that a little bit but could you maybe elaborate about the enabling and condemnation I know you wouldn't judge but maybe for parents who are struggling with that well it depends on where they're at what they're doing how far they've gone uh you certainly don't want to enable but you don't want to cut off either so I think that's just a line that you as a parent you have to decide for yourself where that is or what that is depending on what's going on the circumstances.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: And with Carrie she knew she because she's always said that numerous times she knew where she was and what her choices were and she knew where God was and where you guys were um so she probably didn't put you guys in a position ever to enable her or anything like that.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: Because when she she left she also left the house she wasn't living under your roof at that time so those lines probably were much clearer.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah versus some people who have kids still at home wanting things yeah um how did you I mean Brother McPhell over the years did you deal with very many parents who had prodigal children who came to you for counseling you know I can't think offhand of course you know my memory's not as good as it used to be I'm sure that I did because that's you know an issue for for parents if their child's not living for God.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_04: Did a lot of people come for counseling in your I mean 40 years is a long time but like overall did people seek you out for counseling them about situations?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 46:52
  unknown: Okay.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the counseling was not necessarily about a prodigal child it was family issues it was marriage issues it was those kind of things.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm and some of them very difficult to deal with but I don't recall too very many.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think with a prodigal a parent just decides how they're going to handle it.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're faithful to church they're gonna hear a lot of messages on faith and belief and a lot of those help to encourage a parent with a prodigal child.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's how a lot of that happens yeah um you know I I'm sure every preacher has preached messages before and somebody will say well that was just for me so I'm saying the Lord sometimes uses the ministry and preaching and teaching to minister individually to situations to help people.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah gotcha um what no sorry we have many pastors in the apostolic faith who have prodigal children what do you wish the church at large understood about ministry families and their children that we don't know as prishioners you know well I mean I I don't know I mean I would say that you know as a minister you would hope that the that people would give you the benefit of the doubt that you they're your kids you did the best you're doing the best you can but kids make their own mind they make their own decisions they make their own mistakes they're they're still human you're still human and and to understand that yeah that what has restored your heart after painful losses in ministry due to death or people leaving or just just the loss that a minister feels over a church prayer uh the word of God just reach out to God to give you what you need that's the base that's been a you know baseline yeah sometimes that's all you can do yeah but it's enough and I think um we hear that a lot you know oh just pray just read your Bible but you're talking about your years and years of experience with the God with the Lord and so you you've just learned to depend on him for everything.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly yeah yeah and I think that's a process of maturity in our journey you know when we say to pray about it or you know just go spend some time in prayer with the Lord it's because he really does comfort us he really does show up it's not just a colloquialism or something that we say a good idea.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: No and because in this you know pastoring when you deal with situations in the church and issues and whatever where do you go I mean you have to go I mean to the Lord and he does help.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you can counsel with other ministers and stuff sometimes if that's appropriate but basically you know you have to you just have to depend you learn you and you have to depend on God.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_04: Did you counsel with did you have a a peer uh or or someone in ministry that you counseled with at times uh I had probably a couple of uh preachers yeah that fellowship with and talk to and you know just pastor to pastor minister to minister did you lean on Sister McPhell a lot for your comfort?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah she was uh a great help yeah she was a great help yes yeah yeah yeah we won't talk about her because I know I know that's touchy I mean sorrowful um let's see McPhil I know your answer is gonna be about this um but maybe you could elaborate a little bit what do you do with the stories that still don't have a happy ending like preaching a funeral to someone that didn't make it back or um seeing someone you did you saw Keith and Reed go to prison Keith and or Reed didn't go to prison but you saw the degradation their life took and me you know my history like what how what what do you do with those things you know I mean luckily we're back but some people don't make it back like what goes through your mind what do you think about you mean people that don't make it back yeah when the story doesn't end well well that's when you just have to put it into the hands of God you really do I'm not God you know God he has the final say on everything and so you just have to leave it with him that's all you can really do.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think about it a lot?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_04: Does it bother your mind?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_04: Does it bother your thoughts or are you good at just compartmentalizing and tucking it away and leaving it there.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well you you know uh it takes longer to deal with some things than other things.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah but eventually you just have to leave it with you just have to trust God you just have to leave it with him.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I it sounds simplistic but it's not an easy thing to do always you take some work sometimes to get there.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah when Jesus said cast your cares on him because he cares for you that's a powerful statement but you can cast your cares on him one day but then you pick them up the next day so you have to cast them again until finally they don't come back.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to deal with something sometimes more than once or twice.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to keep working your way through it.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord will help you.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's you know kind of like the grief process it just takes time has to run its course yeah and showing up and suiting up in the midst of that cannot be easy but God does give us strength for that.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah um you were a Presbyter for a long time um where have you received where have you seen churches respond well to prodigals?
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_04: Have you seen that?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean has there been a time since you've been you know in pastorial ship that backsliders are coming home like they are now or do you feel like this is a different season altogether with this?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well you know being on a presbyter you don't really get to have experience with individual churches you deal with ministry and you know business stuff but personally I feel like that the the prodigals returning I think this is a special time I think this is something that is uh out of the ordinary I think God is doing a great work I think this is I think we're close to the end and I think God is working on everybody that he can I think that the prodigal's coming back is is uh gonna be even greater.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I really do I I'm glad that it's happening.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah me too it's beautiful to watch yeah and I think the your podcast you know it helps to number one the prodigals it gives them some kind of uh encouragement and then it also gives church people a chance to hear the prodigal and get into what they're going through and you know maybe you know feel like you know compassion and understanding with them that it is possible to get back.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I don't think most I don't there's probably a small percentage but I don't think most prodigals are really happy.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: They know too much.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there may be a few of them that you know they're not they are happy but I think most of them they really want to get back.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't when I look back at over my life you know I don't think it was happy ever.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_04: It was always just chasing a means to an end for the next happy moment trying to fill a void that could never be filled which I I didn't understand to the depth that God was my real true love.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_04: I knew it as a kid but I had been so out of touch with that innocence as a kid and my love for him because the world and everything that piled on so much in the years that I was gone clouded all of that you know but now being home I feel so restored back to my original love that is just so childlike you know the way I think it was intended to be uh and I think God wants that for everybody because there is there is no happiness apart from him not not any genuine no really and he said except you become as a little child and really the it's just the simplicity of the gospel it's just yeah it's a lot simpler we make it too complex or the devil tries to make it too complex but it's just you know it's just simple faith and trust in God and just keep going.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah brother Wilson said one one time when I was at his church and I wrote it down and I've never forgot he said every simplicity begins with a complexity and I think that's true you go through all the things and it really narrows back down to just the simple truth of the gospel Jesus came and died for our sins you know and loves us and redeems us.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to live for him.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah and believe it yes to bel to believe that we're lovable and that he could actually really love us and wants to um what lies do you think prodigals believe about the church and I'm talking about the apostolic church um and and their pastor I mean yeah I think you've listened to a few we all kind of share the same similar belief about judgment what do you what do you think prodigals believe that needs to be corrected or maybe understood from a different lens?
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: You mean like when they're when they're I think before they come back yeah well I'm sure that they they have a misconception of how the church feels about them and how the church is going to receive them and even you know the how the ministry might perceive them that because they walked away and I think they also uh have uh are hard on themselves because of there's some guilt or condemnation self-condemnation because look what I did look where I'm at I'm embarrassed you know and all that I think it's just a combination of stuff but most you know once they get back you you find out hey God loves me the church loves me the pastor loves me no judgment no judgment yeah people just want the prodigals to come home I've said on the podcast many times when I used to see you out in public you would always tell me just come to church Kathy just come to church you know just come and um I always knew that I could and that that was comforting you know that's the big step just to come yeah yeah yeah and often it was a big step um so any prodigals that are listening the judgment that you think might occur if you were to go to church um I think it might depend on the church that you go to um but I I think give it a shot I I think there's a lot of things that have changed and um I think the judgment is what the enemy uses against us to prevent us from going back you know a lot.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_04: I believe that yeah so don't believe everything you think because often it's not true.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_04: And and so Brother McPhil I know you've had a chance to talk to Reed and Keith and some of the prodigals that you've seen come home and we've had prodigals come in that were members of other churches recently too what have they told you um now that they're back about their time away and where they're at now like what takeaways do you think they've shared?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well they haven't really talked about too much well they have maybe about where they were but I think most of them a lot are just they are amazed that they're back and they're amazed at how great it is because I think they never thought they would make it back.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I think the enemy told them they're never going to make it back but they are I have not seen them so happy so thrilled just to be back in church back in the presence of God living for God.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah and I want to make the distinction for anyone watching when we say back you know um it it really is the redemption process of the Lord bringing someone back to him but we get to see what that looks like in a church culture because they generally come back to a church but um so we're we're talking about it coming back to church to an apostolic church um and that is often what we're talking about but more importantly it's about the restoration process in the Lord you know um because there I know that there are some prodigals that I know of right now who left apostolic faith and have returned to a relationship with the Lord but don't necessarily come back to an apostolic church you know but they're they're walking with the Lord in their oh their relationship so whether they ever come back to apostolic church I'm not sure but um but for those of us who did return to an apostolic church I think that's a huge miracle because you know that's the part I never thought I would do I'm not sure if Carrie ever thought about going back to church but just not an apostolic church.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people do that.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: But there's not the same Brother McPhil there's not the same anointing or the presence of God or no well I think Carrie had stated before something about you know that uh she knew where she needed to be and where she would come back to have you been to very many other churches for services over the years well I have over the years more for uh conferences and meetings and stuff I mean I don't think I'm prejudiced in saying this but I'm curious your um feeling do you feel that we have a different level our church is different among I mean I feel like there's just such a presence of God at our church I haven't I don't always feel in other places well I think uh that God has certainly blessed the lighthouse but I know there's a lot of other churches that have you know the same thing.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah they have the same Holy Ghost of course the same dimension I think they have the same dimension of the Spirit of God.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah but I I think God is just really working with with the lighthouse and helping us to get to you know greater things.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah so I don't mean to be offensive if there's any pastors watching I'm not trying to say we're better than other churches I think you know because obviously I'm a prodigal that's come home it and I did go to uh non-denominational churches while I was gone there this is definitely different than that um but I guess it's I'm just prejudiced to our church I feel like we just have something so special and I think because we do for us there's no place like home yeah yeah that's a good way to put it home is always going to be home and there's no place like home really that I think that's a big part of it.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I you know I love it.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah I do too um is there any place that you think as a denomination that um unintentionally make things harder for prodigals to return I realize I might be not that I I no ever can think of no um what do You think that most parents, what do you think parents most need to hear when their child walked away?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think they need to hear that, well, the Bible says raise up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's encouragement to realize that if they're leaving today, they could come back tomorrow.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, this is not a final deal.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's, you know, let's see what God's going to do.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: Prodigals come back, their children pray for them and believe and be there for them and have faith that they're going to come back.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_04: Not and not and maybe it's hard to have faith in the person because you have a front row seat to their life.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_04: But if you can have faith in God, um and that's such a good principle, right?
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: We don't it is, and that's you know, you have to kind of get your eyes off of the situation and get your eyes on God.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because we, you know, situations can look impossible, but with God, all things are possible.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if we look at God and what he can do, you know, that's a lot more powerful than looking at a situation that can be very discouraging at the moment.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um what mistakes do you think parents make um out of fear because they're hurt, you know, when dealing with a prodigal child?
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: Fear is messy.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think they can um handle the situation in a wrong way.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: They can be judgmental, they can demand that they, you know, go to church and demand, you know what I'm saying?
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're afraid of what's going on, they can become harsh instead of loving and kind and faith and everything.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's would be the thing.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to turn that way.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_04: So, Brother McPhel, let me ask you this.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_04: When kids start to become teenagers, 15, 16, 17, and they decide they don't want to come to church anymore.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um what do you think the responsibility of the parent is when that child is still under 18?
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, you know, I've had that question asked to me a lot.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how would you counsel that situation?
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, you know, if they are still in the home and they're underage, that uh they they owe it to mom and dad, honor your parents.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think mom and dad owe it to the children, raise up your children the way they should go.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: That they should put, you know, I you can't, I don't want to say make them, but encourage them greatly.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to get them to continue to come.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_04: And that's a difficult thing because it could really create a division between parents and children, which we don't want that either.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I think a parent should do their best to use all of their influence to encourage them to come.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: To come, yeah.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, if they just absolutely refuse, you know, I you just I don't know what you can do.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just saying you don't want to cut them off or threaten them and you know, all those kind of things.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's not productive.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_04: And this might when when a kid does begin to play with worldly things, like start to smoke pot or start to get involved with um in a relationship where you know fornication is easy to happen.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like, how would you counsel parents in that when the kid is still living at home?
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_04: Because the that line between discipline and love is difficult.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, might maybe that's an easy, straightforward question, but I think that is a wrestle with parents that are not wanting to push their kids away, but but also we can't tolerate certain things.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, that is uh that is difficult, and you know, every child's different, every situation's different, and you can't you don't want to condone or allow, and I think you sometimes have to draw a line that if you're gonna, you know, be in the house that we have rules, and you just you know, there you are.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_04: So I think the the marker is the 18, you know, if they're an adult, they're an adult, and if they want to make those choices, they can make them outside of the home.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's so hard.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not easy raising kids.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Some kids are easier than others.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um what have you learned about the process of restoration?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: You mean watching people?
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as far as somebody coming back to the Lord.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um number one, it takes time.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not a one-day thing.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you come back in one day, but then you know it takes time, and for the individual in the process of restoration, they have to continue to want to be restored.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they have to realize it's gonna take some time and some work.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna, they're gonna have to work.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna have to work on themselves, that old nature, those things that come up, and there's gonna be temptations.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to just have a made-up mind that I'm gonna come home and I'm gonna stay, be faithful to church, you know, read your Bible, pray, all those things, stay strong spiritually.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: But restoration is a process.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not like going to the doctor and getting a shot.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like recovering from something that takes time to recover from.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_04: Brother McPhel, when I prayed back through all those years ago, I was 28.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_04: I I was a hundred percent in, sold out, did all the standards, joined the choir.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um what did you what were your thoughts?
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you remember, that was 30 years ago.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_04: Seeing me come in then, and then going back out again.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like you you had to sit back and observe a lot.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_04: And you won't hurt my feelings no matter what.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, some people sometimes things happen, you know, they come in, they pray through, and everything's good, but something can come up and can cause uh you know a setback.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you just have to you know, it's unfortunate you don't like to see it, but it happens.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you just have to keep praying for them and you're still here.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: This time is different.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_04: This time is different, and I really think it's the Lord because Well, I can tell it's different than from before.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_04: Good.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_04: I I I felt it before.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I definitely I think it's always been in my heart.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think your perception and your desires and things are different this time.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You see things differently.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I needed to go, I didn't need to, God could have done it, but my own emotional needs and woundedness, I had to grow through and learn and begin to understand and have my own education around some of that stuff to make sense of my life, you know.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but brother Pierce in 1995 um called me out.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you remember, I was sitting on the very back row of the church, and he said that I needed to choose between the two loves, the church or him, meaning a man.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_04: And that was always my wrestle, and I don't think I ever knew that uh until he spoke that, and then it became really clear, and I continued to wrestle with that, but never really in my heart knowing that I was choosing a man or the need for love over God, when I was, because I was always falling into sin.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_04: But I never really understood that until I've gotten older and now I understand it really well.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I'm glad that you can see it's different, Brother McPhil.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're making good progress.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm happy I feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be for the first time in my life.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_04: So that feels good.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_04: It does.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I always end the the podcast with two questions.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, what do you what would you say to the parents who still have prodigals out there?
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, you know, to continue to love them, pray for them, and believe.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Not just pray, but believe that God is gonna bring them home.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's one thing to pray for something, it's another thing to believe.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And to have faith that God is gonna do it.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's good.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because Carrie was gone, his daughter was gone over 20 years.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: She was.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you just have to believe that's gonna happen.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_04: And what would you say to the prodigal who hasn't come home yet?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that uh your biggest, your biggest challenge is overcoming yourself.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Your attitude and where you're at and what you think it's gonna be like, and all the things that the enemy in the flesh throw your way.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: To overcome that is the biggest challenge, I think.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the prodigal in the Bible, when he finally got down, he said, I was better off back home, and you're better off back home.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: But he had to overcome his self.
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I will arise, I will go.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, you have to just say, I've had enough.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And realize that you will be welcoming, you will be received.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because the prodigal, you know, he came, he, when he arose, he was expecting it to look one way.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_04: He was not expecting the ring and the robe and the fatty calf.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_04: He was just happy with the crumbs that he was.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_01: He just wanted to be a servant.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I'll be a servant.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_04: But he said, No, you're a son.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_04: And so the message in that is it's never gonna look the way you think it's gonna look if you come home.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be better because God is so much greater than what we think he is in our prodigal, unredemptive mind.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, God's gotta really show himself to us in a way that gets all of the other thinking out, and he knows how to do that.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_04: But we do have to overcome ourselves.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_04: That's exactly right.
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And most people are more understanding and forgiving than what you think they're gonna be.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_04: And they don't, they're really not judging.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_04: I do think that that is a lie of the enemy, and I do think that all prodigals think that.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_04: But, you know, uh Bishop MacPhail, who's known me since I was a kid, would tell me, just come.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_04: And he would see me out looking crazy in public with all kinds of, you know, half dressed and lots of jewelry.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_04: And he knew how I was and who I was, and he still just loved me enough to say, come.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_04: So just show up, you'll be loved.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, amen.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_04: Amen.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Brother McPhel, for being here.
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and um, thank you for everybody who who's watching.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_04: If you have a prodigal, if you are a prodigal, if you know a prodigal, please share the podcast with them and um and reach out to us.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_04: We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_00: We are so glad you joined us.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Visit our website at the redeemed backslider.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you will tune in for our next episode.