Latest / IMI Podcasts / #15 - Investment Migration and Financial Planning: Natural Bedfellows - John Hanafin on Mobility Standard

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#15 - Investment Migration and Financial Planning: Natural Bedfellows - John Hanafin on Mobility Standard · IMI Podcasts

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: in St.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: Kitts.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Christian Nissame, editor of Investment Migration Insider, and with me in today's episode I have my co-host Ahmad Abbas, as well as our guest this week, Mr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: John Hanafin, Chief Executive of Korea Private in Dubai.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: John says he is a financial and tax advisor first and an RCBI advisor second.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: He believes the two fields go hand in hand and should not be treated as separate matters.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: We spoke to him about why RCBI firms steer clear of offering tax advice and why that isn't the best solution for clients.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Why he sees a lot more European entrepreneurs relocating to the Middle East than he sees Middle Eastern entrepreneurs relocating to Europe.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why he believes the marketing message on which Balkan countries are really the closest to EU accession doesn't reflect the realities.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Why he thinks Ireland's immigration investor program needs to learn lessons from Portugal's Golden Visa.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI stories on our website, iMydaily.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: John Hanafin, very pleased to have you here on the mobility standard.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Finally, um, I think we should start uh right away by introducing you to the members of the audience who may not already know you.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, what's your professional background?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: How did you come to run Huria Private?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: And what type of company is Huria Private?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know you do more than just RCBI.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: So take it away, John.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Magic.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Christian, and hello guys.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, great to finally have a chat and uh hope all you guys are safe and well.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, look, let me give you a quick whirlwind through of of my um young, beautiful young life.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm Irish, as the twang in my voice might tell you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um born and raised in Dublin.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I studied economics and then went on to study what we call in in the UK uh chartered secretary uh work, which is like understanding the concept of the incorporation of companies uh uh across the world.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um then uh after college, after doing uh economics and and what they call the ICSA, um I joined, I mean, as it happens, I joined a company, my cousin got me a job, um, in uh a company formation business um in Dublin.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, the Irish Offshore Company was a competitor of the BVI company, of the Panamanian company, um, of the IBC companies from all over the world.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I worked for them for five or six years when I asked for a transfer overseas and ended up working in Gibraltar.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I went to Gibraltar for a year and ended up spending six and a half years in Gibraltar, living in Spain and crossing the border into Gibraltar every day.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Effectively, I was setting up companies all over the world and then assisting the clients in how the how they were owning the shares of those companies.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, the last company I worked for had an office in Dubai, and in 2005, um, I ended up coming to Dubai Boat Show because I was managing the maritime portfolio for this trust company, and I was coming over to meet clients that were buying uh basically very large assets that were floating assets, and we were doing the legal structure and the corporate ownership.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they were buying them through companies, and those companies were being held generally by an offshore trust or a foundation or something else, and we were doing all the legal paperwork behind it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And after I came to Dubai, um I realized it was like San Francisco in the gold rush era, should we say, um, back then, and it is again now, we'll get to that later too.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I went back to the office and said, look, if there's any chance of me working or living in Dubai, it seems like an incredible opportunity.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so we opened up an office, this trust company opened up an office, and I ended up working for them here for when maybe 10 years here.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um how did I fall into the the um citizenship by investment business?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was setting up a company for an Iranian client, um, and I asked him to come in and sign documentation, onboarding documentation.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I asked for his passport copy, and he presented three passports.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I said, Okay, that's unusual.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Jason Bourne is in our boardroom.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So he showed me the three passports, and um, fortunately they all had the same name, which was an advantage.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one was from Canada, one was from a place called St.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Kitts and Nevis, and one was from Iran.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I said to him, How on earth do you have three passports from three different countries?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, okay, let me tell you how I got them.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he went through the Quebec program, he said I had to go live in basically freezing weather for a few years and get this one.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got my passport, and then I left and came back here.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, St.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Kits and Nevis is a Commonwealth country in the Caribbean.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: They have a program, it's very old.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you supply your due diligence, etc.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: etc., etc.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I brought the three passports into our compliance officer and he checked them and he said, Yeah, they're all legit.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, Holy smokes.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So this um this then introduced me to the business.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I went and did my homework and found out, you know, who were uh who were the masters of this industry, and I started referring clients.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: So then I realized something very important for the trust and corporate services business that we were working in that you know ultimately a high net worth individual or an entrepreneur are concerned about how they own their shares at the top of a structure, right?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: The top of a pyramid of structure with Delaware companies, Cayman companies, Dubai companies, Hong Kong companies, or whatever.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and of course, what what's most important for them is their tax domicile.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um where are they effectively living and are they the controlling partner at the top?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So when I eventually came to understand that you could, in effect, acquire a second citizenship or a third citizenship or a residence and potentially legally move your tax domicile somewhere else, or live in a zero tax jurisdiction, renounce your US passport, not have to file returns.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So this opened a whole new industry for me.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then I said, you know what, we don't have to stop at the top of your company with a trust or a foundation.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: We can go above the trust or the foundation and talk about you being a person that's from a country, you can choose to be from another country, which I thought was amazing, and I still think it is amazing.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: You don't choose where you're born, right?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Your parents choose where you're born, um, but you now can choose where you're from.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it's extremely interesting.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: You have obviously a very illustrious background from uh a range of sort of corporate private client fields.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um how many how many acronyms do you have in your title?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: No one has ever said illustrious before.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna write that one down and keep that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um so because you had that background in the corporate services slash tax slash trust slash family office world, I think it'd be interesting for us to talk a little bit about how these services intersect with the pure play investment migration business, which is you know just focused on investing and getting a certain uh travel document or a residence permit.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of firms, especially in Dubai where you are, prefer to focus exclusively on RCBI, while others, like Huriya, is that how I say it by the way?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: How do I pronounce it?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Just call it, just call it illustrious.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: I love that one.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, illustrious, man.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: As you like, as you like.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh so you you combine RCBI with related services, auxiliary services, to provide sort of a more holistic plan for clients.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Is there uh is that a natural marriage uh you know between those sectors and RCBI?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and do you think that that model is becoming more or less common?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, two answers to that question.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think number one, it's mandatory.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it shouldn't even be a consideration.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if someone comes in to sit with uh an immigration agent to talk about potentially changing or uh amending or acquiring a new citizenship or a new domicile or a new residence, how you can't, you know, if you don't talk about who they are, where they live, what tax they pay, where they potentially are going to live, where their kids are going to live, I mean it's it's it has to be a part of it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't understand how it can be, you know, a transaction.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course it can, because there are hundreds of agents in the world that will come in and say, I want a passport from Dominica, there's an invoice, pay me, thanks very much.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: The reason it becomes transactional, I think, is that first of all, you know, not everybody can have that type of background that you have.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Some people just want to learn R C BI and they want to be able to simply sell CBI.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: And they deliberately avoid any discussion regarding tax, corporate structuring, that kind of thing, because first of all, they would be in over their head in terms of you know, they don't have the competence.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: But secondly, it would subject, even if they did have the competence, it would subject them to a whole host of other regulations which they may not wish to deal with.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's the explanation for why that happens.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: Although at the same time, of course, I perfectly understand it makes no sense to plan for one and not the other.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: They are kind of joined at the hip, no?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And look, I understand, you know, there are people in the industry that are very good at what they do and purely want to do one thing and that's it.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I've I've I've worked for people that have had that attitude, shall we say.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, yeah, I mean, the approach with Horea was that I didn't simply want to be a citizenship by investment agent.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: We wanted to be a family office.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if somebody comes to us to say, I need a passport from this country because of X and Y, we'll find out if they do or they don't.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they do, we will proceed.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, during the onboarding process, when you're going through an extensive amount of due diligence on behalf of said applicant country, you're gonna find out a lot about the client.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if we have the experience to help them in certain areas, like they're exposed for investments.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a guy comes to my office and says, I own the tower next door in Dubai.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, great.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: How do you own it?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I own it in my individual name.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, you understand it's a civil law country, not a common law country, and you have Sharia implications of having assets over here.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps that's something we can discuss alongside your passport afterwards, etc., etc.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we, you know, we have these kind of conversations because generally you're talking to millionaires, multimillionaires, in some cases, even bigger.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: My background allows me to have that conversation.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we do have clients from time to time and say, listen, that's great.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have a tax advisor or I have an asset manager or UBS manage everything for me.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just need the passport in and out, you know, Bob's your uncle, that's it.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, great, yeah, no problem.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Great, we'll do that for you.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but at the same time, nine out of ten, nine out of ten cats prefer it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Nine out of ten clients will say, you know what, that's interesting.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's talk about that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I want to buy something in London, but somebody told me inheritance tax applies to me, even though I'm not British and I'm not living there, and etc.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can point out something that might save somebody a massive amount of money in the future, then why not do it?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: John, I have a question.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's a a very client-centric way to uh to handle a discussion, which is which is very appropriate.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, when do you enter into those types of discussions around their uh fiscal objectives, their footprint?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is this you said during the onboarding process, so they've already committed to work with you and then you begin to have that type of consultation or beforehand?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I I would say almost immediately um, you know, we sit down and ask them, listen, okay, what who are you?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do you have 10 kids?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have three wives, as we sometimes find?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what what's the objective?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, uh most clients will come and say, I want cheap, I want quick, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: These are the things I love to hear in Dubai of 501.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the cheapest and want the quickest.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, yeah, one doesn't relate to the other, but anyway, we'll get to that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you know, I asked them, right, who who are you?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and and you know, let's get to the fact that you're gonna need to show a certain level of net worth.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Can you do that?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have bank statements?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you willing to show bank statements?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some clients are, some clients aren't, etc.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So some of them don't even know how many bank accounts they have, some of them can't remember how many potential assets they have, if it's apartments, if it's houses, if it's this, if it's that, etc.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's a case of us saying, look, it's not gonna cost you.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're not financial advisors.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to sell you something.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if a client says, Listen, I have a guy, I've hired an advisor, and he's doing all that for me, that's great.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes those advisors come to us and say, Listen, I've got that sorted, don't worry about it.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Just get me the passport.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's fine.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Then we're not necessarily indirectly with the client, we'll say, No problem, because we deal with the bankers, we deal with the lawyers, we deal with the asset managers, etc.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll call and go, listen, I have a bloke, Ahmed, needs a passport, he's Palestinian, I need this, this, I have some of his docs, I don't have all sorted out.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: If that's the case, of course we can do that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I would like to think we try to be a little bit different to the straightforward um um competition, should we say, that we have around town?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: You said something really important that not anybody can you know talk about this, not anybody can advise, and some people are gonna be in over their heads.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you think the competition in Dubai is actually gearing towards more of a financial advisory state, or are just is it just words on a blog?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see is really happening?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh words on a blog.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Look, look, here's the issue about Dubai as a jurisdiction.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can set up a specialist immigration firm in about 48 hours.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do that in the UK.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be an immigration lawyer.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do that in most European countries.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, you can be selling bananas on Friday and selling passports on Monday.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: The industry is a baby, you know, and it is it is uh per se an unregulated international industry because it's new, you know.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I can almost compare it to Dubai as a jurisdiction or UAE as a jurisdiction.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's 50 years old, it's new.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're learning, we bring, we're bringing out laws and changing it all the time.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to develop it in the right way.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: We give everybody the freedom to be able to set up a corporation in a matter of hours or two or three days.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Should there be higher levels of regulation?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Should it be like Switzerland, where it takes such a long time and massive levels of regulation before you can set up a Swiss sarle?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: There has to be a balance, you know?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: So just speaking from my personal experience, uh, and I'm a young guy, I haven't been in business for you know 30 years like you have, but uh I've I've had my own challenges opening businesses in different countries, different jurisdictions, living in different jurisdictions at the same time, trying to get an answer from my tax advisors in a particular jurisdiction.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, how should I structure this?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if I'm living in country A, banking in country B, I have companies in jurisdictions C and D, and my clients are everywhere uh except in the country where I'm incorporated.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how should I structure this?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and my tax advisors in Norway and Spain and Portugal, they just look at me and they're like, uh we don't know, you have to talk to a lawyer in that country.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: But it seems to me like if you go to Hurrier Private, this kind of a place where you can, it's like a one-stop shop for uh global tax advice.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: But how how do you stay on top of all those policies?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: How can you how can you have a single place where they know all the tax policies and all the corporate policies across the world?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: How's that even possible?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm gonna be sending you an invoice tomorrow, Christian.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is great news.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um how is that possible?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, so if you're in the industry long enough, you you are a member or you're subscribed to certain international, like the ITPA, the International Tax Planning Association, or the IDBA, and you keep an eye on what the OECD are saying, you keep an eye on what the FATF are saying.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you generally are from the industry and you read the newspapers, you should know what's going on.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you know how aggressive the tax authorities are in South Africa, how aggressive they are in the UK, how aggressive they are in the US, that you could renounce US citizenship.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And at one stage there was no exit tax.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now there's an exit tax where they they'll look at it for three years, etc.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, there are there are an awful lot of websites to follow.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now I sound like a nerd, but I mean I get emails on a daily basis, and I will trawl through and see what's important, what's not important to read.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there are industry conferences you can go to with the same guys that have been at the same conferences for 20, 30 years, and yeah, and they and they talk about you know the European countries now getting more aggressive on taxation and more Europeans leaving, more wealthy Europeans leaving Europe because they just don't see the benefits.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for for us, we're seeing more Europeans come into the Middle East than we are seeing Middle Eastern families moving to Europe.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um now that that's not just Bitcoin, you know, new Bitcoin millionaires, etc.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: These are genuine entrepreneurs that think that uh their governments are being unfair to them.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and they see a place like Dubai, um, they compare Dubai to Monaco, Liechtenstein, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, etc., the usual um zero or low tax jurisdictions, and more and more are coming to the Middle East.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what I believe is that people should have financial freedom to be able to do with their money what they want to do and also be able to move themselves.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be able to have um movement of capital and movement of persons, movement of human beings.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the concept because most of the clients we deal with come from exchange-controlled countries.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um incredibly, in this day and age, there are countries in the world that will tell you you cannot move more than$50,000 a year of your hard-earned tax-paid money out of this country because um we need it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that's insane.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to be frank, the day that cryptocurrency is adopted everywhere, then the banks and governments will lose control, which is why decentralized finance fascinates me and I think it will change an awful lot of things.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, industry-wise, yeah, perhaps I'm not long enough in the industry or don't have the government contacts to tell you what's going to happen next.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, I find it fascinating.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I mean, certainly there are, I mean, it's documented that there are a number of European countries that have changed legislation recently to talk about this.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's rumors about Serbia, there's rumours about Croatia, there's rumours about Albania.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, Montenegro promoted themselves as the next European country.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: But if you read the statutes and the laws, uh, North Macedonia and Albania are about five years ahead of Montenegro in terms of the accession states to join to join Europe, but Montenegro is pushing on that angle.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, whatever works.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Why do you say uh so this runs contrary to what I've heard?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: That I I mean I've always been I've heard and have taken it at face value that Montenegro is sort of the Balkan country that's the closest to EU accession.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Are you hearing something else, or are you are you seeing different legislation?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm I'm not hearing it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's factual.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um that the agreements agreements have already been signed for North Macedonia and Albania um to join Europe.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um Macedon Montenegro have joined NATO, but they're not in any way, shape, or form near uh joining Europe.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think they have too many political issues, to be frank, to be joining Europe anytime soon.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: The the issue that delayed North Macedonia and Albania was number one, North Macedonia had an issue with Greece and they had to change their name from Macedonia to North Macedonia.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then now they have an issue with Bulgaria, which is the last country that's preventing a potential further discussions because they've already been granted an audience with Brussels for themselves and Albania to join.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: The Bulgarians have an issue with Bulgarian as a language uh being in the in the Macedonian uh legislation, or North Macedonian legislation, I should refer to.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So very recently, um, the Albanian president came out and said that he was tired of trying to beg to get an audience with North Macedonia to be able to uh have a timeline to join Europe and they were going to make their own Schengen, bunch of Schengen states, and have visa-free around the Balkans, etc.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can probably have seen that recently.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: So from the legal standpoint, from the documents or white papers that I've read, um, those two countries are about five years ahead of Montenegro in terms of full membership of EU.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: That is very interesting, and I think that's something that most people in this industry are not aware of.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just become a trope, maybe, that um Montenegro is the one that's closest.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think a lot of them probably are, but it doesn't suit a sales pitch to say that.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, they'll say what suits when it suits.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I mean it's it's not, you know, if you have Safari and Google, you can find all this information pretty quick.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: But let me ask you this, John.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I want to go the opposite direction uh direction.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: As a financial advisor, which destination would you hope, purely in terms of financial advisory taxation and so on, would you hope would launch CIP.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Ireland.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they did have a CIP back in the day.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: When was this in the late 80s to late 90s?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: For almost a decade, isn't it?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, they did and they didn't, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they yeah, under Bertie or Hearn, there's a web page for it called Ireland Issuing Passports.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the uh Wikipedia page for it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a real shame.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: They won't even discuss it now.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I've gone to the Irish government.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I have a namesake, uh, John Hanaffin, who's a member of Parliament, uh, which gives me PEP status every time I try and open a bank account, but it's not me.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a few years younger.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he's a member of parliament, and and I've gone a number of times to the Irish government to say, look, you have this half million euro donation and one million euro into a fund, etc., etc., to get residency in a country that's not a member of Schengen, so you don't get the bloody travel all over Europe and you get a passport once you live in Ireland to become a tax resident, and then forget tax on you worldwide size, it just doesn't work for me.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's and it's a it's a pretty tricky sale and uh sell unless somebody particularly wants to go and live in Ireland or have the kids educated, etc., in Ireland.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've I've pitched to them a number of times look at what Portugal have done, look at the level of transparency, look at the fact that I can't take a client's money, it has to be sent to the own account in Portugal, etc.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the program is very, very clever.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I say, why can't you do something like this?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they say it's still too soon after the legacy of the Bertie or Hearn era where large companies were coming in.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, large companies coming in and you know starting businesses or employing 100 people or a thousand people, etc.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of it, the then prime minister was saying, listen, I'm gonna throw a passport in as well.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that it was necessarily done illegally, it was just done stupidly, because then it was oh, passports for your mates, and they were meeting in hotel lobbies and exchanging Irish passports, etc.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I've met a lot of very interesting people in Dubai that are have Irish passports and got it through this means.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: So But of course, back then, back then, I mean, I guess there was more scope for them to do it, as you say, in a stupid way, because uh you didn't have the best practice examples that you do today.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh of course, and it's again it's not that it was illegal because virtually every European country has the right in their constitution to make anybody a citizen of their country, be it based on by decree.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: By decree, yes, of course, right.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, be it based on sport, based on merit, based on economic uh uh social impact, etc.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the the prime minister can say, listen, I'm sorry, but this person brought in a hundred million and a thousand jobs, and I'm gonna make them Irish, and blah blah blah blah blah.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, it's the usual thing that the it wasn't done in a transparent way, and the opposition will jump all over it, um, as they do in government, as their job.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're two years in or four years in, and it's uh somebody.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, what you're saying, what you're saying is that uh they understand, they appreciate the merits of operating these types of programs, or even a citizenship by investment program, it's just that it's too early, it's still too sore, uh still too fresh in the memory.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's too sore a wound after, yeah.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a shame because um, you know, I meet a lot of clients and we have a brochure for Ireland on our boardroom table, and uh nine out of ten clients go, Oh bro, how do we get an Irish passport?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh well, you want to live there?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: It rains a lot.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Great Guinness, but it rains a lot.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, you know, and then when I explain the program, they're like, Oh, that's not really a program, is it?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more like kind of the US, UK, Canada angle, you know, you've got to go and and move up sticks, up house, and go live there.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it's a shame.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to see it develop because you know, there's not many Irish, shall we say, in in this industry, or not that I'm aware of in Dubai.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'd love my home country to be able to have a program that's comprehensive that we could sell.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you said that you do uh lobby the government from time to time in Ireland.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh are you are you encouraging them to open a citizenship by investment program, or are you are you encouraging them to reform their investor-immigrant program?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, both.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: And and what are you what are you advising them to do to uh improve matters, to drum up interest?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm advising them to do is take a look at the European countries that brought out very effective programs, residency programs, like the Maltese residency program, for example, uh, or the Portuguese Golden Visa Program.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, okay, Portugal has a different climate, should we say, which not to sound stupid, but it does attract certain level of retirees to go down onto the Algarve and stay there.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, they have the um habitual residence scheme, which allows a 10-year tax holiday for somebody that's just going to move down to Portugal as well.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, they've done something very smart, and it's a Mediterranean country.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but Ireland has other benefits that people like.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Education is very strong.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have the common trade agreement with the UK, so we're the only country that you can go back and forth to the UK without any visas, etc.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: etc., etc.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be a way of getting to London without being in London.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't want to live in London and be educated in Dublin and have your kids go back and forth to the UK.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I I think perhaps they don't have time or they don't have the energy and their focus, the Irish government's focus now is on the Silicon Valley that they've built in the center of the city for the Amazons, the Googles, the Facebooks, the LinkedIns, etc.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: etc., and the apples of the world.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because every time I buy something online, I get an invoice from an address in Dublin, as I'm as I'm sure you do.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um so this is where they're this is where they're making money at the moment.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we're running short of time.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I have one final question uh that I want to raise.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: What is an underrated investment migration program that you think isn't getting the attention it deserves, and why?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, every time a client that comes in to us to ask about a program and it's not Portugal, I talk about Portugal.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I don't want to say it's underrated because it's quite successful, but when I explain to if a client comes in to ask me about a Caribbean program, um, I'll talk about the program and I say, Listen, can I tell you something about this little place down beside Spain?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then I tell them about it, and I tell them the threshold, and I tell them how it works, and I tell them how potentially they can make a capital gain on a property or they can do a buyback via various hotel groups, etc.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I say to them all, I say, listen, I don't mean to be a used car salesman and try and sell two for one, but I say, look, if you are considering a fast passport and you want this, if you have kids that are nine, ten, eleven, or something else, and you have capital, you have a million dirhams or 300,000 euros or something, sit in an account, not earning money, earning zero, uh, as most banks will give you, take it, put it into Portugal, forget about it, um, and thank me in five or six years.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we think we've sold a lot of Portugal, and I think the program is excellent.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's transparent.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it will be there forever because the government has raided five or six, you read five billion, six billion, seven billion, depending on what paper you read.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I guess I don't know, is it underrated?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not, but I think it's a superb program.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's it for today, folks.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions you have about investment migration.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: I want to remind you to follow our work on imidaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.