Latest / HR Spot / Episode #69 - How to Fire a Toxic Employee - Without Creating a Bigger Problem

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Episode #69 - How to Fire a Toxic Employee - Without Creating a Bigger Problem · HR Spot

0:07
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to HR Spot.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Linda Michaels, alongside with the famous Gary Nye.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Woohoo!
0:17
SPEAKER_02: Super famous.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: I think they need your autograph because before you become even more famous.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be worth something someday.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: So what are we talking about today, Gary?
0:32
SPEAKER_02: This is one of my favorites.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Today we're gonna be talking about something almost every business owner or leader eventually will have to deal with.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's the drum roll toxic employee.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: And not just how to recognize one, but we're gonna go all the way to the question leaders really struggle with.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: When is it time to let someone go?
1:03
SPEAKER_00: And how do you do it the right way?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Because usually by the time the business owner calls us about a toxic employee, they've already been dealing with the situation for months and sometimes years.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: Let them go today.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: What are you waiting for?
1:21
SPEAKER_02: It's a business decision.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: Just I think there's a shoe commercial that used to say, just do it.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: But do it right.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: But just do it.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: The longer you wait, the worse it gets.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: And I I imagine that owners usually know there's a problem, right?
1:42
SPEAKER_02: Or they're a manager or leader, whatever.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: They know.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: They totally know.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: And they tell us everybody's walking on eggshells around this person.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Or we'll hear them tell us, I've already lost two good employees because of them.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Or they might say they're doing a great job, but they're destroying the team.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: And then comes the word that we hear all the time.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, but.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: And this goes right into what we were talking about last week with the ghost and the general, right?
2:17
SPEAKER_02: Is some, you know, this is where the generals sometimes need to lean towards the ghost, and the ghost needs to lean towards the general because when you sit and wait, it's not good, right?
2:28
SPEAKER_02: And then there's the butt.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes, but there's always a but, Linda.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: What does it mean?
2:33
SPEAKER_02: What do they say?
2:34
SPEAKER_00: They say, but they're our top salesperson, or they'll say, but they've been here for 15 years.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: Or they'll say, but they're the only person who knows how to do this.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Or, but I don't have enough documentation.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Usually there's zero documentation.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: And the last one is, but I'm afraid they're gonna sue us.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: And that's where leaders get stuck, right?
3:03
SPEAKER_00: So today we're gonna talk about how to recognize the different types of toxic employees and why waiting can actually increase your risk, what you need to document, and how to ultimately make the decision to terminate.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I want to I want to butt in real quick with one more big old butt.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: But they're a really good person.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: I hear that one too, right?
3:29
SPEAKER_02: But they're really good and they're I really like them, and I they're a really good person.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but are they doing the job?
3:37
SPEAKER_02: They could be a great person, but if they're not doing the job, you know, you need to move on.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, sorry, I had it just that one old big old butt to get in there.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: Um so next, right?
3:49
SPEAKER_02: The or part one is gonna be the cost of waiting.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, what does it cost you to your business and your customers and your coworkers?
3:58
SPEAKER_02: What does it cost when you wait a month, six months, a year, two years, right?
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Let's start there.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: Why do why do leaders wait so long, Linda?
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes firing people is very uncomfortable.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: They don't know what to say, they don't know how to do it, so it's very uncomfortable for them.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: So they don't do it.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, and most leaders or people don't enjoy firing other people.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: If you do enjoy it, that's a whole nother podcast, right?
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: So they know this person has a family, they worry about their livelihood, they wonder whether they've done enough to help them improve, and sometimes they're afraid of legal consequences, and these are all understandable concerns, but here's what leaders sometimes forget: doing nothing is also a decision, and the rest of your employees are watching and waiting to see what you're gonna do, absolutely, and we talk about this all the time, right?
5:05
SPEAKER_02: Is the what you tolerate becomes the standard, right?
5:13
SPEAKER_02: So those employees are watching and they see how you're handling the situation.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: So that's the important part, is they're watching.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so think about your very, very best employee.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, they show up every day, they work hard, they help others, they're trying to create a positive environment.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: And meanwhile, the other employee is bullying people, ignoring policy, creating drama, undermining managers, or making everyone miserable.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And leader keep leadership keeps saying, We're working on it, we're working on it.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And eventually your really great employee starts to think, why am I putting up with this?
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, often we see that the good employees will leave first because they don't want to tolerate it, and they think, if you're just hanging on, then why do I need to be here?
6:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna make the decision, I'm out.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, yes, and that's the irony, right?
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Where leaders sometimes keep the toxic employee because they're afraid of turnover, and then they actually lose the people they really want to keep.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: And so that's when we tell leaders don't just calculate the value that employee produces, calculate the cost they create around them.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: That's that's good, right?
6:40
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, and you gotta look at the cost of the whole business, right?
6:45
SPEAKER_02: Like what happens if everybody leaves except for that person?
6:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, replacing two good employees is gonna outweigh the cost of losing a bad employee or toxic employee.
6:58
SPEAKER_02: So okay, part two.
7:01
SPEAKER_02: Not all toxic employees look and sound the same, do they?
7:06
SPEAKER_02: So you identified several different types of toxic employees, and we all have examples of what's toxic in your work environment.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: So let's go through some of them because I think leaders will have their own interpretations, but they'll probably recognize some of these pretty quickly.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the first one that's probably the most easiest to recognize is the workplace bully.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: That's my favorite.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: That's my absolute favorite.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: This is the person that intimidates people.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they yell, maybe they humiliate employees in meetings, maybe they're condescending, condescending, or threatening.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe they're just a little passive aggressive.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: And we're not talking about someone having a bad day or one bad day.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about a pattern.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, something that's consistent, right?
8:04
SPEAKER_02: It's not once every six months.
8:07
SPEAKER_02: That might not be good either, but we're talking about something that's consistent.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: So, what should the manager do when they witness this or hear about this?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: So, first thing that HR always tells you, right?
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Document, document, document.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: So document the specifics.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Don't write John was rude again.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: You got to tell me what John did.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: You got to describe the behavior.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: What day was it?
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Who was there?
8:36
SPEAKER_00: What exactly was said, what happened afterwards?
8:40
SPEAKER_00: It's your who, what, when, where, how, why, how.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Document all of those.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: And if employees are complaining about bullying or harassment, those complaints need to be taken seriously and appropriately investigated.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: Can people document things like, well, he was intentionally being mean, or I felt that he meant this, or you know, uh, what do you think?
9:06
SPEAKER_02: Are you allowed to is it best to document what you think the other people meant?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, describe the behavior, Gary.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay, it's gotta be the facts, right?
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Just the facts, please.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: Okay, awesome.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: So, what's the second type?
9:25
SPEAKER_00: This is your chronic policy violator.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: The everybody has this problem, they know the rules, they've been reminded of the rules, and somehow the rules never apply to them.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Attendance, safety, confidentiality, technology, workplace conduct, whatever it is, there's always another violation.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I want to kind of put something in with that too, right?
9:56
SPEAKER_02: Is it's the documentation is super important.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: And depending on the leadership structure, the leaders that aren't enforcing those or aren't documenting each one of those or aren't having a conversation about improvement, a little bit it's on them too.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make the employee right.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: But if a manager just sees Johnny checking in five minutes, ten minutes, 15 minutes late consistently and not doing anything about it, that's a little bit of management training, too.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, a lot of this sounds like ones that are where consistency becomes really important.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very important.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Because if you terminate one employee for something you've you've uh repeatedly allowed other employees to do, then you've created a much more complicated situation, right?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: So you've you've already tolerated the behavior, and that's why policies matter.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Consistent enforcement matters just as much.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: So you can't have a 75-page handbook and then ignore it until you suddenly want to terminate somebody.
11:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's that's rough.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: That's not going to be good no matter how it works out.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: It's you have to be consistent with everybody, right?
11:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, so the next one, you know, the ones that are harder to see, right?
11:20
SPEAKER_02: That are a little more conspicuous that you have to or inconspicuous that you have to pay attention for.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: So what about the employee who isn't openly breaking rules, bullying people, yelling at people, but everyone knows they're creating the problem.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, those are the best, Gary.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: So this is what I call the passive aggressive saboteur.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this person very rarely gives you one gigantic incident.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Instead, it's the little things, right?
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Information doesn't get shared, deadlines mysteriously get missed, directions are constantly misunderstood, they quietly criticize leadership, they resist initiatives they don't agree with, and they often look perfectly cooperative when leadership is in the room.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: Ah, that's the one.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: It's when when mom and dad are looking, they're they're great, right?
12:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: So something like that, how do you document something that's so inconspicuous?
12:29
SPEAKER_00: So again, this is where we're documenting outcomes and behaviors, not labels, right?
12:38
SPEAKER_00: So we're not gonna write Gary is passive aggressive.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: That's very subjective, right?
12:45
SPEAKER_00: So instead, we're gonna write Gary was asked to provide the report by Tuesday.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: That's very specific, right?
12:54
SPEAKER_00: The expectation was confirmed by email, and the report was not delivered till Friday, causing the project to be delayed.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Now that's something very objective.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And if that happens repeatedly, then we start seeing the pattern.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's something I like when the documentation is the effect, right?
13:16
SPEAKER_02: The project was delayed.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: The person was late to work, causing lower production, or causing the person that they're recovering for to have to stay late, or you know, the impact.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: Those are I think important.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there's another type I think almost everybody probably has worked with at this point is the person who is just absolutely negative about everything, negative Nelly, all the time.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Nothing's right, everything's wrong, I'm right, everybody's wrong.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: How do you deal with that?
13:54
SPEAKER_00: So those are also my favorite, right?
13:57
SPEAKER_00: And those are called the chronic negativity spreader, right?
14:03
SPEAKER_00: They just hate life, they hate people, they hate policy, they hate process, every idea is bad, every change won't work, leadership doesn't know what they're doing, customers are terrible, their coworkers are incompetent, Monday's terrible, Tuesday isn't much better.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: What about Friday?
14:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm already tired just labeling everything out.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Friday's no good either, right?
14:29
SPEAKER_02: Because ah, then I have to come back on Monday, and ah, what about Friday?
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they will always find something wrong with Friday, too, right?
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And so the challenge is you generally don't want to terminate somebody simply because of their attitude.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: We need to connect it to workplace behavior and expectations.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: So is the person disrupting meetings?
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Are they undermining initiatives?
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Are coworkers complaining?
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Is their conduct interfering with their performance or team's performance?
15:03
SPEAKER_00: That's what you address.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: And then there's another caution here.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the employee isn't being negative, they might be raising legitimate concerns about safety or working conditions or discrimination or harassment or any other protected issue.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: We just need to understand the difference before you take action.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know, with that too, right?
15:29
SPEAKER_02: That kind of goes, you know, the follow-up, right, is you have to look into what they're complaining about.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: It's not just and the hard part too, it's like the boy who cried wolf, right?
15:38
SPEAKER_02: If they complain about everything and there's really nothing to substantiate it, but then they do complain about something that is a true complaint about an issue, and you don't look into it, well you're kind of in trouble there, right?
15:58
SPEAKER_02: You kind of have to at least make an effort on some of them to listen to what they're talking about.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: So next, I think the political player and that toxic star.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: I like this one, Linda.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about the employee who's great with leadership, but completely different with everyone else.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Let's call them maybe kind of like a Dr.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Jekyll and Mr.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Hyde.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love it.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: I love it, Gary.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: These are the manipulative political players, they manage up beautifully.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Leadership loves them, but sideways and downward, completely different person.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: That's your doctor and Jekyll, Mr.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Hyde, right?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: They take all the credit, but they withhold the information, they undermine the coworkers, they create alliances, and sometimes they're incredibly good at making the employee they're targeting look like the problem.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they create the problem so they could be the hero, right?
17:05
SPEAKER_02: So it really, well, probably.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: No, it does.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: It makes them really difficult to manage, doesn't it?
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very difficult because sometimes they've spent years building their own story, right?
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Their performance review looks great because leadership only sees the one side of them.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: And that's why leaders need feedback from multiple levels in the organization.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: And if someone is wonderful with the CEO, but six people underneath them are miserable, then you gotta understand what's happening.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then there's the probably the hardest one.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: Those people are probably the hardest one for companies to let go, right?
17:48
SPEAKER_02: Because leadership sees, oh, this is a great person, right?
17:52
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, what's next?
17:55
SPEAKER_02: This one, the hardest one for companies to let go, because this maybe is the hardest one.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: The toxic high performer.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Right, so they're hitting all their numbers and all that.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: They might be your number one salesperson, and leadership says, Oh my lord, we can't afford to lose them.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: So, my question is, can you afford to keep them?
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, even if they're generating millions of dollars in sales, what if three great employees leave because of them?
18:36
SPEAKER_00: What if nobody wants to work on their team?
18:39
SPEAKER_00: What if your culture becomes one where people believe performance excuses bad behavior?
18:46
SPEAKER_00: Or individual performance and organizational value are not always the same thing.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: It's important.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and your best performer isn't necessarily your most valuable employee.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes your most valuable employee is the person who performs well and makes everyone around them even better.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I think about it in sports, right?
19:15
SPEAKER_02: It's the best players are the ones who lifts everybody up and makes everybody better as a team.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: It's not just, hey, they're the best employee or best sports, you know, best player out there.
19:26
SPEAKER_02: That's you know, you have to lift people up for it.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, people have talent, but if you're not lifting others up, it doesn't work.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: So, all right.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: The next one, documentation.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: Documentation, and then again, documentation.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: What leaders get wrong, Linda?
19:42
SPEAKER_02: Let's say I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, hmm, that sounds like you just described someone on my team.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: What do I do next?
19:52
SPEAKER_02: What's my first step?
19:54
SPEAKER_00: So don't immediately run into their office and fire them.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're saying here, right?
20:00
SPEAKER_00: We want to look at the documentation and your process.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: And this is where companies themselves get into trouble.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: Managers will tell me, Well, we've talked to them about this 10 times, and then I'll ask, Great, where's the documentation?
20:15
SPEAKER_00: And then crickets.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Ah, that's I hate that.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: How many times we tell managers all the time, you have to document it, you have to document it.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: Follow it up with an email saying, Hey, pour our conversation.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: You have to do it.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: Whether it's like I don't like texts or DMs or Slacks or whatever, but those are still documentation, right?
20:38
SPEAKER_02: So you need to have all that stuff.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: But please write it down, people.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: Write it down.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: So, what if it isn't documented?
20:48
SPEAKER_02: Then what?
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, from an HR standpoint, it becomes much harder to establish what actually happened.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Documentation doesn't have to be this big old long novel.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Please, just yeah, right?
21:02
SPEAKER_00: It just needs to answer a couple of best basic questions like what happened?
21:07
SPEAKER_00: When did it happen?
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Who was involved?
21:09
SPEAKER_00: What expectation wasn't met?
21:12
SPEAKER_00: What did the manager communicate?
21:14
SPEAKER_00: What does the employee need to do differently?
21:17
SPEAKER_00: And what happens if it continues?
21:19
SPEAKER_00: And then follow up important conversations in writing.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Something as simple as this email confirms our conversation today regarding blah blah blah.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: It's what you just said a minute ago, right?
21:34
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: Please follow up email is really good, even if it says blah, blah, blah.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: Document it and that person has it, right?
21:45
SPEAKER_02: And if you really want to get technical, you can put the the read receipt, you know, on it so that it records that it was sent and that they received it.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: If that is like extra step, and that's double gold star for you by your name, but That's awesome.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: Right?
22:02
SPEAKER_01: That is awesome.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: I guess the next question, should we should you use a uh performance improvement plan, a pip?
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we love pips too, right?
22:18
SPEAKER_00: At least you have documentation, right?
22:21
SPEAKER_00: So no, you don't have to do a pip.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a common misconception.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: A pip is appropriate when there's something that can reasonably be corrected and you generally want to give the employee the opportunity to improve.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: So you establish measurable expectations, you give them a timeline, you give them support, you do your check-ins, and you clearly explain the consequences if they don't improve.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: But a pip shouldn't simply be theater, right?
22:51
SPEAKER_00: So if you already decided you're terminating someone and there's no realistic path back, don't pretend you're giving them a chance.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: And that's where situations where a pip may not make sense at all.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, when it comes to serious harassment, you're not going to give them a pip for serious harassment, any kind of violence, there's no pip for that.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: Fraud, theft, serious safety violations, all of these may require immediate action depending on the facts.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's, you know, maybe one of our upcoming uh podcasts could be about pips, because I think this is a debatable thing, you know, with what with what they are and what they aren't and what they're for and what they're not.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: And but so what you're trying to tell me is that the pip isn't the goal.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly, Gary.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: The goal is fair and consistent process.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that leads to improvement, sometimes it leads to termination.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I guess it depends what your goal is, right?
23:57
SPEAKER_02: What's your outcome that you're looking for?
24:00
SPEAKER_02: So, all right, so you've decided to terminate, right?
24:04
SPEAKER_02: We're at the point you're done, you're ready to move on.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: Now what?
24:08
SPEAKER_02: What do you do?
24:10
SPEAKER_02: So documentation is there.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: You reviewed the situation, you've contacted HR, we figured out what's next, the leadership agrees, the decision has been made.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: How should the actual termination conversation happen?
24:25
SPEAKER_02: Tell me about it.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: So, first thing, you never want to do it alone.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Ideally, you're gonna have somebody present, whether that's the manager, whether that's another HR person.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: If you don't have HR, another appropriate leader or a neutral witness would be a good option.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: You want to keep the meeting short.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: This is not the time to relive six months worth of drama and history.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: You've managed the process correctly.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: None of this should be new information.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: So here's what I would say.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: We've discussed these concerns regarding your conduct and the expectations for improvement.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, those expectations have not been met.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: We've made the decision to end your employment effective today.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Clear, respectful, final.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: And quick.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: Right?
25:19
SPEAKER_02: What if they want to argue?
25:20
SPEAKER_02: What if they want to say, what about, what if, what about, and go on there.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: What do you do if they want to argue?
25:27
SPEAKER_00: Not here to get suckered into a debate, right?
25:30
SPEAKER_00: You can acknowledge that they disagree with the decision, but the termination meeting isn't an appeal hearing.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the biggest mistakes managers make is talking too much because they're uncomfortable with silence.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: They start explaining, then they explain the explanation, and then they say something they shouldn't have said.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Keep it simple.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: That's good advice, Linda.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: Keep it simple.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Because inevitably, the longer you talk, especially people who just don't know better, they're gonna say something that's gonna come back to haunt them.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: Tell you, oh well, they told me that you know this in the termination meeting that it's because so-and-so said something about something else, and then about this and that.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, then you're in trouble.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: You're in trouble.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: All right.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: So don't forget the logistics of all this.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: There's also the practical side for all this stuff that we have to keep in mind.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: What's next?
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so doing some prep work before the termination is critical.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: So, right before the meeting, you want to have your checklist ready.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: Final paycheck requirements in the state in which they're employed, benefits information and COBRA, if applicable, company property, keys, laptop, credit cards, uh, access to the building, system access, email, customer information, coordination with IT so it can be handled appropriately.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, you should have to think about all these things prior to the termination meeting, not after the employee leaves.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how many times have I heard about companies, maybe or managers, and they forgot to terminate someone in the system and then they built up time or they got paid an extra paycheck because no one terminated them, and then they have to do a clawback, and then that's an argument.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I hate that.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: So, what do you tell the team in a situation like this?
27:29
SPEAKER_02: Then, you know, the question you know, people are going to be asking all the time, you know, what do we tell everybody else?
27:36
SPEAKER_02: What do you tell the team?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: Tell everybody very, very little.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: We don't owe employees details of somebody else's termination, it's none of their business.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: So we can say something like, I want to let everyone know that John is no longer with the company.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: We wish him well.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: If you have questions about responsibilities or how it impacts your work, please come to me directly.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: And that's enough, right?
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So we're not gonna gossip, we're not gonna justify the decision, we're not gonna tell the, you know, what the employee did, we're gonna respect the employees' privacy, even if the employment relationship ended poorly.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: And here's something else leaders sometimes underestimate the team might actually feel relieved.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen situations where toxic employees finally removed, and the employees essentially say, Thank you.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: We thought management didn't see what was happening.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's a leadership lesson, right?
28:39
SPEAKER_00: When when your employees notice that you tolerate.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I had that recently, and after we did the termination, you know, the the following week, and you get there, and people are like, wow, I feel so much better.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is just that was great.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: We did know, but that's great.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna just add one little tidbit because this happened this morning, and I was talking with someone, and what to do when terminated employees start calling, start calling managers and leaders and other employees.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: We all forget.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: I think it's just normal.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: I gotta remind them, don't answer.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't have to talk to them.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, they called and they were saying this and they were asking questions about that.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: You know, did you complain?
29:32
SPEAKER_02: What happened?
29:33
SPEAKER_02: What did you hear?
29:35
SPEAKER_02: Tell your team not to respond.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: Hey, I don't feel comfortable talking about this, it's none of my business.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I don't know anything.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: Block the number.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: I I had a manager a long time ago tell me, Well, this person's called me four times.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: Why do you answer the phone?
29:53
SPEAKER_02: Just block the number.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I could do that.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you ding bat.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: Don't answer the phone.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: Why are you engaging these conversations?
30:04
SPEAKER_02: We as humans have the ability.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: Don't engage, don't don't engage with the toxic person.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: That person, geez, I I can't.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: I I had to remind the manager today, the leader.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Tell your leaders not to answer the phone.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: Tell them not to have a conversation with them.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: Like you said, the decision's final.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: We're moving on.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: That's it.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: Simple.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Simple, Gary.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: Don't give them anything.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Like, because someone's gonna say something wrong.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, someone said it was because of this.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh boy, now you're in trouble.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: You know, then you engage in all these things, and then this person's gonna come back, and then they might have something against you.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: Just keep zip it.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: Don't answer your phone.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Just zip it, throw away the key.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: Come on, you're an adult, you can turn your phone off.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: That gets me every time.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: And I'll admit it, right?
30:54
SPEAKER_02: I forget.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like, why is this person called?
30:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, I can block it.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
30:58
SPEAKER_02: So, all right, the next question.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: Question that leaders should ask afterwards.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: So the employee's gone.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Everything seems to be a little bit better, but are we really finished?
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Not quite.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: There's one more question leadership needs to ask.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: How did we allow this to continue for as long as it did?
31:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not about beating yourself up, it's about learning.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Did managers avoid difficult conversations?
31:29
SPEAKER_00: Were policies unclear?
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Were expectations inconsistent?
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Did we just excuse bad behavior because somebody was a high performer?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Did employees complain and feel like nobody listened?
31:42
SPEAKER_00: And because if you don't fix the system that allowed the behavior to continue, you may eventually find yourself dealing with another version of the same employee.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I got a question for you, Linda.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: And I've had this, right?
31:57
SPEAKER_02: So you have one manager with an employee who's not up to par.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: Manager doesn't say much, but they transfer the employee to another manager.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: That manager has to deal with it now.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: But you know what?
32:12
SPEAKER_02: That manager thinks, oh, they're a good person, and I don't wanna I don't want to say anything bad.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: So then they they transfer them to another manager.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Now you got this consistent pattern building up, but no one's talking.
32:25
SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you do?
32:26
SPEAKER_02: And how does that affect everything?
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Goes back to what we just talked about, right?
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Nobody's addressing the problem.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: So now you got three managers not addressing the problem, and now the behavior is still continuing, and all the other employees see it.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, I can just behave badly and I'll just get transferred.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then the poor employee, you know, yeah, they're creating a toxic environment, but no one's had a conversation with them.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: They think they're doing okay.
32:56
unknown: Yep.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: And they think they're just getting moved because it's gonna help the team or whatever the manager has come up with with conjun concoction to get them to go to a different group.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: And then afterwards, you know, when you step in and you maybe terminate them, and then they go, Oh, yeah, I didn't like that person, so I transferred them and I moved them.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: And the next manager says, Oh, yeah, well, they didn't work well for me either, so I I just moved them to a different position.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: And I just want to bang my head against the wall and like you could have stopped this a year, two years, or three years ago by just putting your adult pants on and having the conversation and document it and do something about it instead of not ruining the whole business, but really creating this.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: You created the toxic environment by letting it go on.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: Right?
33:46
SPEAKER_02: It's you know, it takes a conversation and documentation.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: If that first manager would have just documented things and then it would have been in the file, and the next manager maybe saw the documentation later on, then they have an idea.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: This isn't this is not just uh one off or whatever.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: They this is a pattern we need to address.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: So um final takeaways, Linda.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: So if someone's listening today out there and they're thinking, Oh, I have a toxic employee, what's one thing you'd want them to take away from this this whole conversation today?
34:24
SPEAKER_00: So I would say don't confuse avoiding a difficult decision with reducing risk.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes avoiding the problem actually creates more risk.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: So we want to make sure that we act early.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: We want to address the behavior when we first see it, document objectively, apply your policies consistently, and give people a genuine opportunity to improve when appropriate.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And then when it's clear that the employment relationship needs to end, handle it professionally, respectfully, and decisively.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Because leadership isn't just about supporting one employee.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: You're responsible for the entire environment that you're creating for everyone.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and sometimes protecting the whole team or the company means having a conversation that is uncomfortable and that you really, you really don't want to have.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: And hard quite hard conversations are part of leadership responsibilities.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: So if you're a business owner listening to this, thinking I have someone exactly like this, but I have no idea what to do next.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: That's when you call us, right?
35:41
SPEAKER_00: So don't jack it up.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Call us first, especially if there are complications involving complaints, maybe a leave or accommodations or protected activity or potential legal claims.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: Don't wait until after the termination to ask whether you handled it correctly.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Call us and we'll work through it together.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Call us.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: That is huge, right?
36:10
SPEAKER_02: Call a professional who knows a thing or two about these situations, right?
36:14
SPEAKER_02: That was a great topic today, Linda.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I think we've probably all dealt with that toxic employee one time or another.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it was just a coworker, or maybe you're the manager is dealing with it.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: So I think this is all something that we encounter once in our at least once in our employment life.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Make sure um every leader is equipped by what we talked about today.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: And remember, having a toxic employee doesn't define your culture, right?
36:46
SPEAKER_00: It's what you allow to continue that defines your culture.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: So thanks for a great episode today, Gary.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: We appreciate everyone listening.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Feel free to check out our website, azhrhub.com, or send us a note that you love this episode, linda at azhrhub.com or Gary at azhrhub.com.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: Yep, Linda's still waiting for that email from someone.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Give us a shout out, give us a question, give us give us a hard topic or something you need to deal with and you and you need help.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Like give us a toughie.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: I want to deal with it on air here.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: Love it.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: Let's get it, Gary.
37:28
SPEAKER_02: Let's get it, Linda.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening, everybody.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Have a great week.