Latest / On Deathcare / Gail Rubin on Mortality Movies and Changing End-of-Life Planning

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Gail Rubin on Mortality Movies and Changing End-of-Life Planning · On Deathcare

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I am Tony Russo from On Deathcare,
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: and this week I am speaking with Gail Rubin,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: the Doyenne of Death, about some of the work she's been doing lately.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not familiar with Gail, she is an end-of-life planning advocate.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: She holds death cafes.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: She has developed a bunch of different classes and games and projects
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: to help people talk about end-of-life issues.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And she's a big proponent of the Before I Die events that take place internationally.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And part of the story we're going to talk
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: about today is she traveled internationally to talk to some people about
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: ...and make sure you get...
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so happy that you're checking in today.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And let's just hand it over to Gail.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a pleasure to have you and welcome back a month late,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: but yes, welcome back to the United States.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: You just had this awesome trip that included kind of a really interesting event
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: that I want to talk about.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just start with you telling me how you came up with the idea
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: to have this event and then what you had to do to kind of make it possible.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the idea actually came from a gentleman named David Sunderland,
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: who I happened to meet because I live here in Albuquerque,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: and he actually got engaged to a woman who lives in Albuquerque.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're both Quakers.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I had them over for dinner,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: and he had founded an online organization called Plena
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: to encourage end-of-life planning.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he's also written a book called The Punctuation of Loss.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: It just came out.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So he had suggested,
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: while I was over on the other side of the pond,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: as they say,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: That maybe we could do some kind of meeting where we could get together the pioneers
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: of the death discussion movement because the United Kingdom brought us both
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: the Death Cafe conversation movement and the Before I Die Festival concept.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I had never met Professor Jenny Kitzinger.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: She is retired now from Cardiff University,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: but she held The first Before I Die Festival in 2013.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I interviewed her about what she did so that when I started doing
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Before I Die Festivals in New Mexico,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I had her knowledge backing up what I was doing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I had never had the opportunity to meet her in person.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I asked her,
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: would you come to London to participate in discussion about where we are in changing
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: the It's been a while.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: But his mother and his sister continue the work.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a deathcafe.com website that tracks and posts about death cafes
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: that are being held all around the world.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was hoping one of them could be there to participate, but they couldn't make it.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: But we did get Isabel Russo,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: who's the executive director of an organization called the Good Funeral Guide,
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: which is, again,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: trying to get people to understand funeral planning since it's,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: as we know, the party no one wants to plan.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And through her, we were looking for a place to hold it.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And David being a Quaker,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: he was looking at Quaker house meeting houses, but they wanted to charge us.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I asked Isabel, is there a funeral home that might host us for this conversation?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And she proposed the organization Exit Here.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've heard about Exit Here.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're one of those Nouveau Funeral directors.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oliver Payton, OBE, Order of the British Empire.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a title.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: He was an entrepreneur and a restaurateur before...
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: He had an experience with his parents' death that he found very unsatisfactory.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So he teamed up with Barry Pritchard,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: who is from,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: he's like third generation funeral director in the UK and a past president
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: of their funeral director association in the UK.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they created Exit Here.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: The cremation rate in the UK is much higher than it is in the United States.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: With Oliver's experience in restauranteuring and
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: The whole idea of the reception,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: of the celebration of the person's life,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: even though direct cremation is very popular in the UK,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: they are changing the way people approach it with themed locations that reflect
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: the life of the deceased and holding parties and seriously carrying on
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: the celebration of that person's life.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we also had the general manager for Passages International in the UK, Laura Barnett.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: So Passages International,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: as you know, is a premier provider of eco-friendly funeral and cremation products.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they're also in Albuquerque, right?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: They are in Albuquerque.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: An Albuquerque-heavy event.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we had our Before I Die festivals,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: but also in other cities around New Mexico when I was,
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: like, really ambitious and I did, like, a eight-day festival at Albans and told me.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So she participated.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we had what turned out to be not only pioneers in death discussion,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: but also trendsetters in funerals and creating ways of helping people celebrate
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: the lives of their loved ones.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: We also had,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: in addition to me and David,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: We had a professor named Tom Shakespeare,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: who's a social scientist and a bioethicist,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: and one of the funeral directors from exit here, Hannah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: We had really interesting conversations about,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: where have we been, what are the challenges, and maybe what can we look ahead to?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I would really like to kind of unpack is the getting
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: the word out seems to be the hardest part.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a story today.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a story recently about, you know, why are funerals getting out of hand expense wise?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they so expensive?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they so expensive?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was I was speaking with I'm not saying that they're not expensive,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: but I was speaking with with one of the people about it and they're like,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: No one's going to knock on your door and say, you have to buy a car now.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if anybody ever did, you'd say, geez, cars were expensive, right?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you weren't bombarded with car advertisements all the time,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: you would say, oh, my God, I have to buy a car.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have to buy it now.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to pay this much.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of the times the education part is really,
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: really misunderstood because no one's doing,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: or few people,
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I am,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: but few people are doing these kind of stories where like you need to get ready
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: because this is an expense.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, 100% of people are going to have to cover it.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, communications was one of those top themes that did emerge.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is amazing that even though, right,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: we have a 100% mortality rate,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: the studies show that really maybe about 30% of people plan ahead.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're trying to change in terms of Getting more people to understand
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: the whole process of funerals and just being prepared for end-of-life issues.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because, of course, it's not just the funeral.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's also estate planning, that kind of financial aspect.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the many choices that you have to make.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't planned ahead, it's overwhelming.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So between the more approachable way of talking about this with
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Before I Die festivals and death cafes,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm bringing to the party my approach with movies.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote a book that came out in 2026.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Mortality movies, 98.6 mortality movies before you die.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I am working to actually set up events where either in somebody's home or
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: in like one of those more independent theaters that show really quirky films
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: to do mortality movie events could be a matinee,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know, older people don't want to drive at night.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or a movie night.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing about showing movies in your private home is you can have people come
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: to your home and watch movies and that is legally covered.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're showing movies in public,
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: say at the funeral home, you technically need to get a license to show that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a couple hundred dollars for one showing.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I have found that bringing people to watch movies in the chapel of
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: a funeral home is intriguing to the public.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And especially if it's a comedy,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: there are so many great funeral comedies that one can choose from or fantasies
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: about what happens after we die.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite movies is Defending Your Life with Meryl Streep, Albert Brooks.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hoping to keep moving that idea along and have Funeral Homes actually doing
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: and I could be there to facilitate conversations and introduce the film as a way
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: of getting people to think about it.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I discovered that more men will come to watch a mortality movie than will go to
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: a Death Cafe conversation.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was just about to say, and I want to ask, have you done the loved one yet in a funeral home?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that would be spectacular.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: I have shown it.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think I showed it in my house, though.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you're a fan.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I thought that that would be the most meta thing
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: that anyone has ever done in Deathcare, I think.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: That would be good.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things that they brought to you?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have any takeaways that you can incorporate into your practice now?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think in a funeral home,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: what Exit Here has been doing with expanding what they do to get the public
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: to interact with their funeral home,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: they have,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: instead of a death cafe where you would talk about mortality issues,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: they actually offer bereavement cafes where you have a little coffee or tea,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: some cake or cookies, and And they will facilitate grief discussions.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: But they also have more unconventional activities like karaoke at the funeral home,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Easter egg hunts.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Other activities that can get people to the funeral home, which is great.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all for that.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the Before I Die Festival, that can incorporate art, stickers...
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Behind the scenes tours, public events, history of cemeteries.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so many topics that can help draw people in that are death adjacent and
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: in the process help facilitate that conversation.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really interested in the idea of grief cafes.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: How is that different from the other things that I just mentioned?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly what they are doing differently,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe just calling it a bereavement cafe is more welcoming than,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: oh, this is a grief support group.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: You feel like you're less needy, I guess.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about your grief.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, bereavement is not just grief.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's all those other changes that death suddenly thrusts upon you.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: your financial situation changes drastically,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: especially if it's, you know, the breadwinner who dies.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: But also the roles within a family unit.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know when my husband died, he was the one who always did the laundry.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, dang, I got to do my own laundry now?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: The primary loss is the death of that loved one,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: but then there are secondary losses, which are those kind of situations.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because that person is no longer in your life,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of these other losses start making themselves obvious.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: That makes perfect sense.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what did they think of the mortality movies?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: How did that go over?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is anybody adopting that?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: They like the idea.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that they're going to start doing it unless I personally come there and do it.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the movies, this approach is a great way for pre-need planning.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: did two different covers of the book because I was in conversation with a funeral home.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: My first cover was the Grim Reaper eating popcorn.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: The
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: owner of the funeral home said, we do not associate our brand with the Grim Reaper.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, we can do a different cover.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a second cover,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: which is I think more people actually like,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: except for my death fans,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: which is like the front of a movie theater and the Marquise is the title of
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: the book, 98.6 Mortality Movies to See Before You Die.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's still developing.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I did a number of showings here in Albuquerque at French Funeral Homes,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: one of their chapels at one of their locations.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a really good ongoing community contact.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: one of the regulars who would come to all the movies,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: he actually pre-planned his cremation with French as a direct result of
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: that community event.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it should be an ongoing kind of thing, though, that...
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think a one-time event will necessarily make that happen.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the regularity of it is what's important.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Building the community connection,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: the trust, the openness, seeing actually staffers from the funeral home there.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: We had regular folks who staffed the event.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It really was lovely.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we would have everybody applauded French every time we did it
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: because I would say, thank you for having us here and doing this.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to talk to you about your,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, I don't mean like I want to have a conversation.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Your movie selections are, I find them wonderful.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's rare that it's a movie that I haven't heard of before,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: but one that I hadn't, which I keep telling everyone about, is Undertaking Betty.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love that one.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: What a splendid little beautiful little movie with Alfred Molina, right?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And Christopher Walken.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they play competing funeral directors in this little town in Wales.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Alfred Molina is the traditional one.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And Christopher Walken is like doing these celebration of life funerals,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: whether the people ask for them or not.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I I think that movie brought out, though, was,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know, I mean, yes,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Christopher Walken was was ridiculous,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: but he was also so passionate
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: about like he took how he took this last party very seriously.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is that's an I mean,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: that's not what the movie is about at all,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that's a really good message that can be kind of toyed with.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like you watch the movie,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: you're like,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: the movie is not about this,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: but this is a good opportunity to talk about how important it is
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: to really just do it up.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you, you know, have the means and the will.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and he does more than one funeral in this film.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, uh, But there's also this competition between the two funeral homes.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So in a way, it's also a movie.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a romantic comedy with all sorts of twists,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: but it's also about the funeral business.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's a very funny scene where Betty,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: who's the woman involved with the traditional funeral director,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: is faking her death and So that she can get out of this bad marriage she's in
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: and run off with the traditional funeral director.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So she's in a coffin at her funeral and Christopher Walken
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: and his assistant are looking at her face really closely and it's like,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: wow, you've done a really good job.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: That is a little bit more of an on-the-nose one,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: but how do you find the movies that you're going to use?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've gone through a lot of them, and they're not all hardcore death movies.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're just opportunities for conversation.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a vetting process?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just keep my eyes open for movies that involve death in one way or another
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: or grief.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I've actually put the films into chapters according to their content,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: like Funerals and Funeral Directors,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Grief and Growth, Medical Treatment and End of Life Issues.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: The death fantasy afterlife visions, that's where our fun ones like Death Becomes Her.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mortality and living fully.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many movies that prompt the characters to realize, oh,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: my gosh,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I really need to live my life more fully as a result of experiencing a death.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Estate planning, animated films.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a bunch that are kind of hard to categorize.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And some documentaries as well.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then scenes, specific episodes of TV programs.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: if you only have 30 minutes to show somebody something,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: my top recommendation is the Chuckles Bites the Dust episode from
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: the Mary Tyler Moore show.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's one where if people are familiar with that, they hear the title and they start laughing.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's one that just
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: one of those iconic television moments.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I believe it won an Emmy.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I recall that we had spoken a while ago and you had done the, it's slipping my mind, the.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the newly dead game.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: The newly dead game, right.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so you were able to kind of make that available for other people to use.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way that,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: do you suggest that people use your book if you want to try,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: if they wanted to try to do one on their own?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a way for people to kind of access this idea to use it in other places?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: there is a chapter in the back of the book about how
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: to hold your own mortality movie night or matinee.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: I did do a book about Before I Die festivals called the Before I Die Festival in
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: a Box because I wanted other people to pick up this festival idea and do it
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: in their own towns.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a few people do it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's one coming up in Cincinnati.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had planned to go and I'm not available that weekend,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: but I will go to the one in Cincinnati before too long because I love Cincinnati
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: and it's not that far
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: from me.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So those are things.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I thought of you.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Every time they send, because they're also marketing it pretty well.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I see another little story about it, I'm like, oh, that's right.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to see that these are spreading.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: It would just be less frustrating if they spread faster, I guess.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: It does take some work to put a festival together.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can only imagine and will only imagine because I've been enough involved in
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: the planning of them to know that I'll set up a table on the day
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: if you need my help, but that's not.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: The planning of these things is just massive.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and time consuming.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And do you have one coming up soon in New Mexico?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Any places?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we did a one day event last year that was hugely successful.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: We had over 300 people come for a one day.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, I'm not doing one this year.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: So not in 2026, but I'll get back to it in 2027.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing that they can be so exhausting and, you know, it's hard to find.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: It must have been nice to be in London to kind of like have all your people like in
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: the same room around you and not have to go get them.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was...
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful to hear from,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: especially
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Isabel has got this program about the liminal space that happens
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: when somebody dies.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's liminal spaces like transition time.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And she's got a very thoughtful program about that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was interesting to talk about that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And apparently in the UK, well,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: in England, um,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: The school system there is introducing a grief,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: bereavement, and death education curriculum into their schools.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thank goodness for that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: I wish we could do that here.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't have real high hopes for that here.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I saw that they made that move.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's just an extension of biology.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you think about it, you're like, this is what happens at the end.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're Mm-hmm.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again, can you believe how much a car costs?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Can you believe how much a trip to Europe costs?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, because you look at those things.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not knocking anyone who tries to avoid thinking about their own death,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: but there's a price that comes with any amount of intentional avoidance.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this...
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, it's one of them.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it would be so much easier on so many more people
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: if there could just be this embrace of the fact that this is going to happen.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And even just a couple of lines about, okay, this is the kind of thing I want, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you don't want to do the planning, I understand.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand, but I accept that.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: But at least give someone a roadmap instead of leaving them kind of high and dry there.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that happened to me in my own family.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my parents, my in-laws, myself and my husband, we had all pre-planned.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then my brother-in-law unexpectedly died.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: But he had written in his will that he wanted to be cremated and have some
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: of his cremated remains put in the cemetery here in Albuquerque with his parents
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: and brother.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then have the rest scattered along Route 66.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because he was an artist who had done a series about Route 66.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that gave me a mission.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And really, I'm like the last person left from that family.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like the person to carry it out.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I'm the perfect person to carry it out.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the doyen of death.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I took some of his cremated remains with me when NFDA was in Chicago,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: which is where Route 66 starts.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And a few weeks later, I had other events in California.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I was able to put some of his remains off the edge of the end of the Santa Monica Pier.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been scattering in between in California, Arizona, New Mexico.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I actually went to Oklahoma this spring to scatter some in that direction.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Having that direction in some form or another,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's in the will or a letter of instruction,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: that can be so helpful for loved ones who are left behind.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of brings us up to the end of what I have to ask,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: but that doesn't mean that's the end of the conversation.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything I should have asked, anything you wanted to say I didn't give you a chance to?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think this has been fabulous,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I encourage people to check out the book,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: The Newly Dead Game,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: and other helpful information I have at my website, agoodgoodbye.com.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there will be links to all of those things in the show notes.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Tony.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's been fabulous.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's always a pleasure to have a conversation with her.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: You should definitely check out the book.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she has a Substack like I do where she publishes things about her movie project.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll link to that in the show notes as well.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an On Deathcare production.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was written, edited, all the things by me, Tony Russo.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Please subscribe if you have not already.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can go to ondeathcare.com and just hit the subscribe button.
• 29:58
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• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: than $0 per month.
• 30:05
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• 30:07
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• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you decided to lend some material support.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And once again, thank you as always to my paid subscribers who make all of this possible.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm recording this on the precipice of Labor Day weekend.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have the good luck, good fortune to have the weekend off, have a fantastic weekend.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you are on call or sticking it out,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: thank you for doing the yeoman's work that keeps everything kind of on.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's it for this week, and we will see you next time.