Latest / Rad Chat / E215: Steph Davies - Life after Cancer
Transcript
- Naman Julka-Anderson (00:00) Hello everyone and welcome to Rad Chat, founded by me, Naman Julka- Anderson. Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:04) and me, Jo McNamara. So Rad Chat is a forward thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their expertise in radiotherapy and oncology. Unlike traditional academic resources, we blend real world experience, expert insights, best practice, and of course, most importantly, patient perspectives. Naman Julka-Anderson (00:23) We make advanced knowledge engaging and accessible, supporting continuous learning and professional development without compromising patient care or personal time. By providing insights into both technical skills and career development, helping you progress confidently in your field and shape your professional future. Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:39) Just to let you know, our episodes may contain sensitive and difficult topics that you may find distressing or triggering. Naman Julka-Anderson (00:46) This episode is part of the Living With and Beyond Cancer series, where we'll be hearing from our guest, Steph Davies, about life after cancer. Hi Steph, how are you? Steph (00:56) Hi Naman, I'm well thank you, how are you? Naman Julka-Anderson (00:59) Good, nice to have you here. Steph (01:01) Thank you. Naman Julka-Anderson (01:01) For anyone who's listening and doesn't know who you are, could you tell us a bit about yourself please? Steph (01:07) I'm Steph and I run an organisation called Life After Cancer where we support individuals who want to have finished cancer treatment. Naman Julka-Anderson (01:18) And if we take you back, why did you start this? Steph (01:22) So many, many years ago, was 15, 16, I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. And like many of us, I went back to life for me. It was back to school in GCSEs. But it was 10-15 years later, actually. I was still under the late effects team. I still am at UCLH. And they said, you should have frozen your eggs. You're probably going to go into menopause by age 30. I was kind of late 20s by then. And I thought, my goodness, who do I talk to about all of these things? know, fertility, if you're dating in your late 20s, at what point when you're dating someone do you go, by the way, I might not be able to have children, or I've just frozen my eggs, or I might be going into early menopause. And I just quickly realised that actually, there wasn't very much support post treatment. So years went by, I was working in marketing in town and I just thought, you know, I have to create something. So I created a peer support group in Walden Forest in East London. And it really was just like 12 people coming together in a café that was closed in the evening to talk about, you know, what it was like for us. And on the side, I trained to be a coach and three years in, three months into that, sorry, they said, oh, I'm a bit bored of talking about cancer. Like I'd like to start moving forward. I know. And we know that feeling, right? It's like, oh, I've kind of chatted it all out now. And we said, okay, well, what can we create? And we created our six week program. We thought, you know, what are some of the challenges that we can fix with coaching? And they were things like identity, purpose, you know, these big questions. Who am I now? What's important to me? How do I want to spend my time? What are some of the stories that I might be telling myself that might be getting in the way? Am I being kind to myself? And I would say if we just like plucked someone off the street who hadn't had cancer, know, these are relevant to everybody, right? So we pieced together the six week program and that is where it really began. That was back in 2018 and we got funded small little lottery fund, delivered it, you know, valuation and it all started rolling. Jo McNamara (03:36) Steph, we hear coaching much more now within kind of our everyday lives, know, mentoring, coaching, supporting with career, personal, professional development. What actually is coaching? Steph (03:49) Mm-hmm Jo McNamara (03:49) If you had to kind of sum it up, what is it that you actually do? Because my husband's a coach and he has a very specific tone of voice when he enters his coaching era, which Steph (04:00) Okay. Jo McNamara (04:00) grates me so much when we're just talking about domestic duties in the house but how would you explain it to people? Steph (04:08) Well, I guess to begin with, we believe that you already have the answers. So, you know, whereas a mentor might say you need to go and do X, Y and Z, it's us really asking the questions to support you to live your life in a way as it is now. So how I see that in the cancer space is lots of people's values and priorities change and they hold on to who they were before treatment you know, I was this, this is what my workspace looked like, this is how I spent my time. It's about going, okay, well, what are your values now? And very often, you know, health gets bumped up the list, whether we like it or not. And we want to be spending our time in a different way. So are we living life in line with who you are now, what your values are? So I think that's at the core of coaching. And for us, it's very much making sure that that person is living the life like they want to be living. And that sounds really easy, but a lot of people don't even know what brings them joy, what makes them happy. And I think cancer really stops you in your tracks and makes you re-evaluate everything. you know, lots of us think those big things are important to us, you know, getting that bigger job, the bigger house, and you stop, you get cancer, think, actually, it's those things, maybe I was... missing. I was running around life too quickly and I wasn't stopping to appreciate just a coffee in the sun in the garden or a walk around the block with a friend for 10 minutes. Naman Julka-Anderson (05:37) As professionals and I suppose through Rad Chat we hear this a lot defining your new normal. What does that mean for you as a coach but also I suppose to yourself reflecting back with your cancer treatments? Steph (05:49) I think, yeah, what I see in the community is we hold on to who we were before treatment. And I recognise this when I run the six week program, that if someone has maybe kind of three to six months post-treatment, they're often referring, well, they're really comparing themselves to who they were before treatment. Whereas we might have people on the program who are like 12 to 18 months and they realised I'm probably not going back to that person. But actually, this is a really great opportunity for me to sit down and think about who I actually want to be now. So I noticed that, and of course, some people do go back to how they were before, but for most people I see within our kind of coaching groups, they're really sitting down to kind of roll their sleeves up and work out who they want to be. Jo McNamara (06:41) Why do you think as healthcare professionals we don't necessarily support patients a lot after cancer? From your experience can you kind of see what barriers there are for us being able to provide that? Steph (06:56) Well, I guess to begin with, the focus rightly so is on survival, diagnosing it, treating it, surviving. And I think that so many of those post-cancer challenges are invisible. And only, I think within the kind of like five years or so, if you think about the online world, are we actually talking about these challenges and having visibility of how other people actually feel? And I'm talking about, you know, fatigue. Although we know it's real, think people convince themselves, do I really feel this tired? This kind of tiredness that I can't even explain to another person because it's absolutely exhausting. The tiredness, you know, can I even lift a kettle up? I've heard a guy in our community say that. Like, how do you say that to another person and they actually truly believe or understand the weight of that? Anxiety. These cognitive changes, I just walk into the kitchen and I can't quite remember why I've come in here. Returning to work, why is it so different for me? I think so many of these areas, fear of occurrence, this worry that we take for years and years and years, even me so many years on post-treatment, you still get that little niggle and you worry like, my goodness, is my cancer coming back? So I think so many of these things are really hard to articulate and I think we convince ourselves they're not real and because we think I'm the only person feeling this way, we truly do believe that we are and that's why the peer support is so important, I think, to see someone else and go, my goodness, I'm not going mad. Actually, someone else feels exactly the same way as I do. Naman Julka-Anderson (08:37) You talked about obviously you're under the UCLH kind of late effects team. Have you noticed many later facts since your treatment? Steph (08:46) My lungs are good. I still have my heart monitored and then yeah, early menopause, and fertility, and having to navigate all of that. So yeah, they're for me, but I guess they're, again, they're quite hard things to kind of measure unless, you know, obviously your heart's being monitored, but fertility, I've got my daughter now, having to go through that whole process was told you won't have a child naturally. Being within the NHS for 18 months under lots of treatment, it's exhausting emotionally and physically with all the tests. Again, I think you kind of convince yourselves that lots of these symptoms aren't real because you can assign them to something else. And we hear that within chemo brain as well. It's like, oh, is it because I'm really tired? Is it because I'm in early menopause? Is it because I'm a new parent? Is it because I'm running around working X amount of hours a week? Jo McNamara (09:34) I think anyone who's had to deal with that whole fertility system knows that it is so exhausting to navigate. But also fight for that fertility treatment in itself can be really difficult. There's lots of postcode lotteries around how many attempts you can have and what techniques of fertility you can actually access. Even that in itself is always exhausting, let alone kind of having to almost relive your cancer diagnosis to explain to people why you're having to go through that fertility treatment. How was it kind of navigating? You mentioned a little bit about the fact you were navigating dating and having relationships whilst also kind of having to think about that. How was that for you? How did you get through it? Because I'm thinking if there were patients listening, is there any advice or support that you can offer them around just navigating that whole dating scene, finding the love of your life and then going on to kind of try for a family. Steph (10:38) I think someone asked me this before, like, oh no, I didn't think someone was going to ask for dating advice. I was like, absolutely do not listen to me. I have a partner, I have a family, but yeah, it should not be trusted. I really think I want to, what I wanted to say for me was like really trial and error, do you know, because you might think, oh, I'm on my second date and this feels right. And then you're like, oh no, okay, we're not going to have a conversation ever again with this person. Cause I've just absolutely terrified of them. I think really it's about you one you have to trust the other person that they can kind of hold that conversation for you because there are just horror stories out there aren't they? You're basically sharing this huge pot of yourself with somebody else and that's really scary. How do you ensure that person doesn't run the other way, you know? But I think, yeah, for me it's working out who you trust with that and... you know, who I'm with now, my partner Dean, his mum had leukaemia and I think... that helped, you know, it was like, kind of get it. And again, like we said in the peer support group, it's just someone going, yeah, don't you get it? And actually it's not like this terrifying thing. I don't know if you, it's the same. feel like I've come across people who've either had lots of experience with people who've had cancer or none at all. And there's like a group of people who were like, oh, I've never met anyone who's had cancer. And that's a really scary, terrifying thing to them. You know for me working with people who've had cancer all the time, it's like, you want to offer hope and you can see that actually it's not always a terrible outcome. So no dating advice, but I really think it is about finding someone you trust without. And you just have to listen to your body, don't you? And yourself. Naman Julka-Anderson (12:29) From the conversations in the community, I guess, around dating, when do people try and actually have that conversation about having had cancer? I know you mentioned obviously trust is important, but everyone's going to be different. Some people might be the first time ever talking about it in that kind of scenario. What's their experience or your experience been? Steph (12:49) At what point you have that conversation. I guess it depends on who the other person is. Yeah, Naman Julka-Anderson (12:53) I doubt there isn't a toolkit to it, but I'm just wondering for anyone listening. Steph (12:56) yeah, I don't think there is and I think it probably depends as well on how big cancer is in your life, right? Like for me, fertility, menopause and freezing your eggs are just, well they happen to be part of dating because, well if I'm gonna get with someone I probably need... them to know that maybe at some point I might not be able to have kids if that's important to them. So we have to that conversation. Whereas if someone's not going through that, then it's a very different situation, isn't it? So I don't think there's a right or wrong with it. I really think it's coming back to like what feels right for you. Jo McNamara (13:38) Steph, in terms of the Life After Cancer course, how do people go about accessing it? Steph (13:43) Yeah, absolutely. So you can join online. So we're usually booked up a couple of months in advance because we limit it to 12 individuals and they meet on a weekly basis for six weeks. So we keep it very small, which means, yeah, it's often quite booked up. But online on the website, life-aftercancer.co.uk. Naman Julka-Anderson (14:03) How different is it to a traditional support group? I guess just if anyone's a bit hesitant about doing something online that kind of way. Steph (14:12) Yeah, so it is peer support in the sense that you see someone in a similar position and you're talking through these topics, but really this is about the individual rolling up their sleeves and doing the work. You know, we have a kind of topic, exercise, group discussion, one-to-ones, a lot of work on their own, they'll have work to do between sessions and it is very much about them looking inward as well. So they need to be in a place where they're comfortable to do that, they need to be in a place where they're comfortable to start moving forward because of course if you've had cancer treatment there is a space where you need to sit and accept what's happened and that probably leads us on to a kind of therapy versus coaching conversation where we might work with people and think do you know what maybe you know have six, 10 sessions of therapy first, and then come back to us when you feel like you're in a place to start moving forward. Jo McNamara (15:12) What's been the impact that you've seen Steph, from people who have kind of completed it and the feedback that you get from people. Steph (15:18) So the impact of our program includes increase in mental well-being, reduction in isolation, increases confidence, increases how quickly you return to work and those numbers are quite high in terms of what we see in our program. So we measure every individual on every program that we deliver from when they begin it to when they end it six weeks after. What we don't measure and we'd love to is actually the long-term impact of that. You know, where are those individuals 12 months post? Naman Julka-Anderson (15:57) If you could measure it, what would you like to see? Steph (16:00) Good question. I'd love to hear where they are in their life because what we do see, we have a very very WhatsApp group, we see those individuals kind of like 12 to 18 months post-treatment, obviously this is we've not actually got like the research for it, but they want to turn around and they want to support other individuals. So for them, the next stage is what's my purpose post treatment. I'm in a good place. Now I want to give back. I want to support these people who've just finished cancer treatment. And that's internally for us what our kind of team looks like. So, Naman, you know Shireen don't you? So she had cancer, she joined our peer support, our program, same for Juliet, same for Kirsty, they've all had cancer, they've all completed their coach training, then I trained them in the program and now they deliver the services. So everybody within our team has had cancer and that's really important to us because what we hear from the community is them saying, my goodness, of course everyone's journey is really different but you get it and I don't have to over explain everything because you understand to a point what it's like. Naman Julka-Anderson (17:08) I suppose as well that impact kind of the ripple effect is when some of your community go into work. Obviously they have that lived experience but also the goal setting, the understanding. So if there are other people within their network or their teams, that's kind of that again positive impact of how they can support other people. Steph (17:27) Yeah absolutely and it's that self-belief isn't it as well it's setting those small goals actually achieving them and then yeah putting that belief back in and you can just see how far they grow very very quickly. Jo McNamara (17:49) What's the future hold? What are you looking for life after cancer to kind of progress into? Have you got a vision board somewhere Steph? Steph (17:59) Juliette, one of our facilitators, she loves a vision board. I don't have one actually, if I also, we've got a podcast coming out where for us, the kind of gap that fills is we have expert sessions. So we might have a doctor come in and talk about this is why you're experiencing chemo brain or fatigue or fear of recurrence. And these are the things you can do to support it. But of course, you know, some people can't make the sessions. So we put the podcast episodes in place for people who can't attend them as a resource. We've got our first retreat was in January this year in Malaga. We're to run it again next year. So hopefully a few more retreats. And then I think for us, what I'd love to do is we've got the program, it's online and in person, but it's how we are able to reach more people. kind of two ways of thinking of that is the first is, is there a kind of digital version of it? And the second is just ensuring that more healthcare professionals understand that we exist, know, we offer all of our services are free, they're funded. It's knowing that once someone has finished cancer treatment, as many people within the NHS know that we exist as possible. And then there is a third and it's the support we return to work. So we've kind of dipped in and out of that over the last few years. And we spoke at some corporates this year, but it's... people within the workspace understanding that actually when someone returns to work it's going to be challenging for them because we can support the community as much as possible once they find us or once someone signposts but really you know so much of this work is in educating the general public that actually there are so many post-cancer challenges we had a like a big billboard campaign in February during for the whole of February but over World Cancer Day. And really the goal of that was just to try and show people this is what people who've just finished cancer treatment are actually feeling. And once they have that understanding, it's kind of half the work, I think, because a lot of people who finished cancer treatment feel like they can't talk about it because the outside world expects them to bounce back, why not grateful you just finished cancer treatment, why not running around the world having a great time, I thought this is what you know we were working towards. Jo McNamara (20:22) I think it's really hard as well, isn't it, for corporate businesses to get their head around the fact that if they support their workforce, then actually they will benefit in the long run. It is just the short term in offering those reasonable adjustments, looking at shift patterns, know, supporting people with the fact that they may need time off for appointments to attend and things. But I genuinely think that if you invest that time and effort, that person will have loyalty to that business maybe for the rest of their working life because Steph (20:55) Yeah. Jo McNamara (20:56) you really feel valued rather than going to work after cancer and everyone going, God why is she not back to normal yet? Like why is she still having appointments? I thought that kind of period of absence was over. And it must be so, so challenging to not have that kind of level of support or just acknowledgement from a business. And it is a business, isn't it? It's not, you it's very rare that it's just one person or one line manager. It's about the whole culture of business in kind of adopting that approach. Steph (21:28) Yeah, that line you said, you still got appointments. When I was freezing my eggs, I had that when I was working at the time. and your whole body just goes, you feel so bad. You're just like, I don't know what to do. I have to go for IVF and have scans every single day. I mean, what do you do with that sentence? I'm sorry, I feel bad enough as it is. So I completely, completely agree. It's them going, okay, this is going on for that individual you just need to keep checking in with them. And I think the struggle on their side as well is that it's not linear, it's not like here's your checklist, it's for that person, they might feel fine in the morning and by two o'clock they're absolutely exhausted on their knees. And they probably think they're going to be fine. So there needs to be space for things to change, for it to be flexible. And that could be going on for like two years, five years. I don't know, but people seem to want to kind of have a full stop and put things in a box, don't they? But with these situations, it's not linear at all. Naman Julka-Anderson (22:33) How do any of the community, if any of their carers want to be involved or their loved ones as part of the follow on, how can they get involved or do they Steph (22:42) Yep. Naman Julka-Anderson (22:42) get involved? Steph (22:43) Yeah, they don't know, to be honest. And I think, I mean, they're more than welcome to join. We always say like, you're welcome to bring a plus one. And my kind of gut on that tells me that it's because they want to protect those individuals and want to speak honestly in a space where other people get it. And we see those people who just finished fancy treatment want to protect their family, their friends, because they feel like, I've already shared so much with them during treatment. They think I'm fine. I kind of want them to continue thinking that way because I don't want to burden them with any more. Naman Julka-Anderson (23:26) Yeah, it's interesting, suppose. So some projects that we've probably been involved in is where carers or loved ones have maybe understood what radiotherapy has actually been like for the person going through it. It's almost closed some of those feedback loops where maybe they haven't got all that information. And then I know also in the sort of the psychosexual space post-treatment, it's really important then with the kind of shared goal setting around what intimacy might look like and how to maybe get back to certain things that they did before, just an interesting point. Steph (23:57) Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. Thank you. Jo McNamara (24:01) Steph, what do you wish healthcare professionals knew about what life looks like after cancer based on all your knowledge and experience doing life after cancer? Steph (24:19) This is a hard one to answer, think, because I don't want to sound like I'm pointing fingers. I imagine most of them know what the real, well, they do know what the reality looks like. There's probably not capacity to really sit down and explain. And I guess it's not part of their role. And I understand as well that that individual really wants someone to check in with them. They want to feel heard, they want to feel seen. And once you start that conversation, you can't put the kind of time on it, can you? So it can't be like, I've got three minutes to ask you how you're feeling, but actually you've got another patient, so don't spend too long. So I can totally see the challenges. So what do I want them to know? People want to know what's ahead of them. I think a lot of people aren't told there are challenges post-treatment and then they think there are new people feeling it. Whereas just saying, actually, what I'd love to see is there are going to be some challenges post-treatment, here's your post-treatment pack. And I know some trusts offer it. I would love to see every trust just, if you don't have capacity, everything is in here. And you know, if you need support. then contact X, Y and Z. I understand the problems in that too. It's like, how do you know these organisations still exist? Yeah, I think they need to know that there are challenges ahead potentially. Jo McNamara (25:57) I think it's really important, one thing I would say probably from therapeutic radiographers is because we don't always necessarily kind of cut across the pathway, it can be really challenging for us to know what life looks like after cancer treatment. It's only recently that we keep banging on the drum saying, can you please not say that two weeks after radiotherapy, you're going to be back to normal. Like that's a recent change in practice. You know, it's probably only five years ago that people were routinely saying that to patients. So absolutely I can see why you're being politically correct. But I do also think that if you as a healthcare professional are listening, thinking, actually I don't know what it's like for patients after their radiotherapy treatment because I don't have access to them, find out. Go and Steph (26:44) Yeah. Jo McNamara (26:45) sit in on a peer support group, go and look at your cancer support group, get involved in some voluntary capacity to kind of... and support patients post treatment, even if it's just for a couple of weeks, just to see what it is that patients experience because I'm speaking personally doing rad chat, I hear so much from patients and it definitely makes me a better radiographer because I'm then able to feed that in and be more realistic with patients and kind of prepare them adequately for this is what potentially it might look like. But also as well, kind of share hints and tips to overcome them, but sooner rather than trying to, you know, be reactive to someone who's experiencing something. And I think that's not what we're very good at in the NHS is kind of that prehabilitation, but it goes even more than that. It's just about talking to a patient and preparing them for what's happening rather than being reactive and someone ringing a radiotherapy department or a ward going, my gosh, I'm at breaking point. I've got all these side effects. I'm not myself. Is this normal? Work want me to go back and I don't feel ready, but I'm also struggling financially. And then it's at this point, everyone goes, my gosh, I don't know how to support this patient because they've got so much going on. So then they might refer them back to the GP. Getting a GP appointment is really, so you can literally see how patients just have nowhere to go and are flailing around. Whereas I think, you know, even finding out and doing research about, you know, what is available in the local area to support patients post-treatment is a huge positive thing that you can do as a healthcare professional to kind of know that you're supporting your patients so that they do have somewhere to turn when potentially, they don't return back to normal two weeks after treatment. I don't know, Steph (28:39) And I think. Jo McNamara (28:40) Naman, you obviously work in that space as well, so you probably see it in a different light as well. Naman Julka-Anderson (28:47) I was just thinking back to when I was a baby radiographer, I partly didn't want to get too attached to patients because we are in that small radiotherapy section. But I think when I went into review, on treatment review, I was like, actually, no, I want to get a bit attached. I want to get to know the patients a bit more. And now in late effects, it's not about having a 10 minute appointment. It's like an hour, if not longer, and doesn't have to be in the hospital. It could be going for a walk. It could be something else because it's about the community as well. So yeah, I it's kind of, it opened my eyes a bit more as to what goes on. And I think again, exactly like you said, Jo, through Rad Chat, just coming across so many different organisations, different stories, you just see that again, obviously we know this, but one patient's experiences can be like the polar opposite to someone else's, you know, just like how pain score is subjective, know, anything like that. And yeah, I just, I'd like to have more time with patients, but it's never going to be the the possibility for everyone and actually efficiency wise for the NHS that probably isn't the best thing but actually I think if you spend five, ten minutes longer with one person to explain something fully at the beginning of the pathway like you said I just think the efficiency later on and also the mental health like the positive mental health impact on that person and their family, their friends is like we can't really measure it think it's almost priceless. Steph (30:10) So Naman, are you saying that you can go for a walk with a patient and have your time? That's brilliant, isn't it? Just take it outside as Naman Julka-Anderson (30:15) I've done that for reviews, yeah. Steph (30:19) well and get them moving in nature. Naman Julka-Anderson (30:21) Yeah, some, but I think we also forget the long-term mental health impact of an oncology department on some people. Like if they've come in and had a poor experience in chemo, they're not going to want to go back in. They've had radiotherapy and actually the buzzing sound or the clicking of the bed or something, that can be a trigger point. actually, Steph (30:41) you. Naman Julka-Anderson (30:42) yeah, if there's community spaces we can work in, then it's probably from maybe... 200 episodes ago, Jo and I banged in the drum about therapeutic radiographers should be in the community. And actually all of us as an allied health professional community, yeah, we should be working where we can closer to the patients. And obviously the NHS cancer plan, blah, blah, blah, all of it says that, but actually putting it in practice is really hard. But hopefully my new job's near the beach. So I think in the summer I might try to, and actually Steph (31:09) my goodness. That sounds amazing. Naman Julka-Anderson (31:12) there's, I forgot her name, but. Ellie Ricketts, I think, in the South West she set up a cold water swimming group. And that Steph (31:20) Okay. Naman Julka-Anderson (31:20) became a space and like 20 to 30 patients any time of the year, whatever the weather is, they all meet up once a month. But that's like a perfect thing post-treatment that no one really wants to get in cold water, but actually the benefits are really good and they all come together as a community, go and have coffee and cake afterwards. But stuff like that, I think that's the stuff, yeah. That's Steph (31:40) It's so important. Naman Julka-Anderson (31:42) why I late effects, you can do almost what you want. Steph (31:44) I think there's a surf retreat as well for individuals who finish cancer treatment in the south of England. Jo McNamara (31:54) Amazing, there you go Steph, you can get on a surfboard whilst also doing some coaching. Steph (32:00) I like that idea. Yeah, not in the UK. Naman Julka-Anderson (32:02) preferably in like Bali or Australia but you know it's fun that could be a retreat Steph (32:10) Yeah, I'll try and that one funded. Naman Julka-Anderson (32:18) So Steph, we're coming to the end of the episode. We always like to end of top tips. Is there anything you'd give the professional students and lived experience people listening? Steph (32:28) Yeah, so for the individual who has just finished cancer treatment, think the biggest piece is self-compassion. It's been really kind to yourself, being gentle, really understanding that if you're finding this challenging post-treatment, that it's very, very common. And you're not on your own, and you don't have to navigate this on your own either. There is support out there. And then for the student, I guess it's what we've spoken about, is having an understanding, firstly, that this is happening. 92 % of our community told us they find life after cancer harder than cancer treatment. And when people hear that, it's going, yeah, they say it like it's normal. Yeah, absolutely. But people don't know that until they experience it for themselves. We all know that getting diagnosed with cancer is going to be horrendous. We have absolutely no idea if finishing cancer treatment is going to be challenging. And I guess it's the same for the healthcare professional, isn't it, depending on how much understanding that they have. So yeah, if they don't know that it's going to be challenging, it's the same as the student. And then Jo, like he said, kind of echoes the signposting piece that If you do have someone you're working with who needs some support, please do just signpost them to us because we can have a call with them. We've got such a range of services. We'll definitely find something that aligns with them. Naman Julka-Anderson (33:54) Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on Steph. It's been really nice. Steph (33:56) Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Naman Julka-Anderson (34:00) And yeah, everyone look out for the trips to Australia and Bali with Steph and the crew. Steph (34:04) funded by this podcast right? absolutely Naman Julka-Anderson (34:08) Maybe. Only if we can come too, but yeah, sure. Steph (34:13) absolutely we'll make it happen Naman Julka-Anderson (34:16) Great, and thank you everyone for listening to Rad Chat with me, Naman Julka-Anderson and Jo McNamara. Naman Julka-Anderson (34:21) You can use this episode as part of our free, continual professional development, accredited content, which offers flexible learning that fits your busy schedule. Just check out the show notes for the reflective questions, links to literature and resources, and a link to complete the form to receive your accredited certificate. Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (34:37) Stay up to date with the latest radiotherapy and oncology advancements by liking and following us on social media channels and hitting subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Naman Julka-Anderson (34:47) Join a supportive community designed by professionals who understand the unique challenges of radiotherapy and oncology. Check out our website www.radchat.co.uk. Together we're actively working to improve our profession and make a lasting positive impact on cancer care. Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (35:03) It goes without saying that we can't achieve this alone. It takes all of us working together to create real change. That's why we value every voice and every contribution. We ask that you listen and learn, spread the word, share your story and if you need to, contact us. Naman Julka-Anderson (35:19) If you like what we're doing, buy us a coffee, keep us caffeinated, go to our website to find out more. Thank you all for listening and take care.