Latest / ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women / 151 // Advocating for Your Neurodivergent Child, with Lynn Greenberg

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151 // Advocating for Your Neurodivergent Child, with Lynn Greenberg · ADHD with Confidence | Overcome Anxiety & Self-Doubt, Christian ADHD Coach, ADHD in Women

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  In today's episode, I had the honor of interviewing Lynn Greenberg.
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  She is a children's author. She works alongside her son, Jonathan,
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  and they are working to advocate for those who have neurodivergence through
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  children's literature.
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  It is such an interesting conversation. It was great to hear about how family
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  can work together and also how, as a parent, you can advocate for your child
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  who is neurodivergent. I hope you enjoyed.
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  Don't forget to click that follow button so you don't miss out on future episodes.
• 0:43
  So you can know in your heart that you do belong. You are enough and you are
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  made on purpose and with a purpose.
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  Hey, I'm Kelsey Spronk, fellow ADHD mom and entrepreneur. Join me in building
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  confidence so you can experience successful,
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  Hey friends, welcome to the ADHD with Confidence podcast. I'm your host,
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  Kelsey, and today I'm joined by author Lynn Greenberg. Lynn, welcome to the show.
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  Hi, thanks. Thanks for having me. No problem.
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  Thanks for, you know, offering to be on the show. I'm excited to hear about what you do.
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  Can you start us off by telling us a little bit about your connections with
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  ADHD, both personally and then professionally as well?
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  Well, I have four kids, three in-law children, three grandchildren.
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  So I am familiar with all sorts of growing up and neurodivergent things.
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  And my first real understanding of it was my youngest son, John,
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  Jonathan, who is my co-author and the illustrator of our children's books.
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  When he was little, you know,
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  we all know that people learn differently and grow differently,
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  but I knew that John was not hitting some of the milestones that would probably be,
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  you know, quote unquote normal to hit.
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  He could remember every Thomas the Tank Engine, but couldn't tell you that Thomas
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  started with the letter T.
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  So my start of understanding into the neurodivergent world started with my exploration
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  of what we came to find was his dyslexia.
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  And when he was tested, he.
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  It turned out that he was not just dyslexic, but had ADHD, which,
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  you know, many people who have any neurodivergence have what they call a comorbidity.
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  And his is the, you know, having more than one neurodivergent aspect to their, to who they are.
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  And John's was dyslexia and ADHD. And that's how I started understanding the
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  whole, you know, the whole gamut of what John was, who he was and how best to
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  help him and educate him.
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  So how did that journey look then? So at this point, I had the opportunity to
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  read. And as you mentioned, children's books.
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  You guys wrote together these children's books and he actually illustrated them
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  as well. I wanted to say he did an incredible job.
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  They're beautiful, beautiful illustrations.
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  How did you go from, you know, figuring that out when he was younger,
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  figuring out what worked best for him?
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  How did you get to this point of co-authoring these children's books?
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  So, well, John always, when he was younger and we knew he was dyslexic and we
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  were trying to figure out the best way to educate him,
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  his best, his easiest, his most positive way of self-expressing was through drawing.
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  And, you know, John could sit and do Legos for hours and draw.
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  Don't ask him to do a math problem. He'd get up and walk away, you know.
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  And that's who he was. And that's how his ADHD sort of evolved.
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  How his personality existed. And he was having trouble in school and sitting still.
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  And we knew even the person who was in charge of learning differences said,
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  I don't know how to teach someone with dyslexia.
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  And so we found a school, which is about 45 minutes from where we live.
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  They only take kids with language-based learning differences.
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  And, you know, I came to find that most everyone else there also had ADHD.
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  But he was lucky enough to get into this school. And his education,
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  we were lucky because he learned how to handle it because the teachers in his
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  school not only would teach the kids how to read, but they would also,
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  you know, they understood that he might need to get up and walk around, or that he might,
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  just might, they were more patient and tolerant with the way he needed to learn.
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  And so we were very lucky and sort of learned from them.
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  And that, you know, John learned the best way for him to cope and strategize.
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  How do you feel like that experience? So finding that other school that specifically
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  understood the best approaches for your son, John, and for these other students
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  who learned in a different way.
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  How do you feel like that changed John's experience growing up in the trajectory of his life?
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  I think, I always say, I think it's super important to, to not,
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  it's hard as parents to not like pigeonhole and try to put your own feelings
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  of how the child should grow up onto them.
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  But I think it's super important to try to see what each child needs.
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  And I came to find out that, you know, the strategies that they would give John,
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  like being very, being very structured, you know, having a calendar,
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  the way he learned not only helped him with his dyslexia, but,
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  but in, in the way that he needed to structure his life so that he would be able to be successful.
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  And you asked me, and I realized I don't think I answered how we came to write the books.
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  Yes, yes. So John is my youngest by quite a bit, and he was in college as an
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  art major, and COVID hit.
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  So he came home, and it's pretty hard to do anything remotely, but art is even harder.
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  And so he was trying to do what he could do and doodle and paint and draw and do all these things.
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  And at the same time, I was reading on FaceTime.com. to my grandchildren.
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  And so we were sort of kicking around the idea, what would it be like if we wrote a kid's book?
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  And we had talked about it on and off. And then, you know, what do we know?
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  Well, we certainly know about dyslexia and neurodivergence. And so I think, well,
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  That's how our first book, Robbie, the Dyslexic Taxi in the Airport Adventure, how it developed.
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  And then with the success we had with that, we went on to write Susie,
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  the ADHD Taxi in the Airport and the Sightseeing Adventure.
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  And we've decided to write a whole series under the Creative Cab Company umbrella
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  about all different types of neurodivergence. intervergence.
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  And because for John, and we have found for others, he said,
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  when I was a kid, there was nothing.
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  I didn't see my books, myself represented in children's books.
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  And that was upsetting to him. And he felt like he had a story to tell and he
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  wanted others to see themselves reflected in these books.
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  And so that's how we decided to write all these books.
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  And And John is now just about to graduate from getting his MFA.
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  So he's taken his love of literature, because he loves to read,
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  and his understanding of dyslexia and ADHD.
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  And, you know, we've created quite...
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  Business of, you know, telling his storytelling. I love that.
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  I love, too, that mission of helping kids see themselves as the heroes in these stories.
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  And I did. I read through both of them.
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  And, you know, reading about Susie, the ADHD taxi, I have ADHD myself and know
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  lots of people who do as well.
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  And I think being able to see and recognize the strengths and the gifts and
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  kind of the way that you guys talk about it within your books, right?
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  The Creative Cab Company, Everyone has their unique role and their place where they can shine.
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  And I think you did a good job of making it not seem, how do I say this,
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  not seem patronizing to whoever that person is, but genuinely saying we see
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  what you have to offer and we see where you can offer that.
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  And we will set this up to support you so that you can be successful because
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  we believe you can be successful, and I really appreciated that.
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  Something else I wanted to ask you within that, how do you feel like neurodiverse,
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  neurodiversity representation in early education, how do you feel like that impacts our education?
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  Well, that's a loaded question.
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  Here's what I truly believe. I think there are, just like in any profession,
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  there are, you know, wonderful teachers, maybe ones that aren't quite as successful.
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  But I do feel that our school system in this country is not great at helping
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  children with differences.
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  I think, unfortunately, teachers have too many students in their classrooms.
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  And it's very hard, I think, because it's just so hard.
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  I think that they have to sort of teach to the middle. You know,
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  it's very hard to teach to the high end of any spectrum and the low end of any
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  spectrum and any differences in between.
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  They really don't have the capability. And so even the most well-intentioned,
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  I think it's very difficult to.
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  And I think we need, I personally think we need to do better.
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  Not every school, every teacher, every classroom, but I think as a society,
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  we need to be more understanding and more empathetic and more open to different
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  teaching styles and different children's needs.
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  And I think when you tap into how
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  a child learns best, they're all open to learning and being successful.
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  And it's when a child is embarrassed or confused or, you know, feels different.
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  I mean, John, before he went to the Windward School where he was so successful,
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  he was made to feel badly about himself.
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  And that's not ever, ever a way that a child can learn.
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  And I think it's important for us as a society to just be more understanding and empathetic.
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  To everybody. I feel like somehow that's gotten lost in the world and that's a shame.
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  Absolutely. Yeah. When you think about, you know, advocating in our workplace
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  or in university or wherever it is about the importance of having a supportive
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  environment that supports different learning styles,
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  different unique brains and things like that.
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  And recognizing that, yes, we might learn, we might process differently,
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  but it doesn't mean that one way is wrong and the other one is right.
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  And I think that's something that's such a frustrating part of living in our
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  current world with ADHD or neurodivergence is just the fact that we are placed
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  in that category of other because of the fact that the way our society and system
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  is set up for a neurotypical brain with that type of structure.
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  You know, you think about, it's fun, it's fun to think about this, although.
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  Not reality, but thinking about, you know, if
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  we had lived in an area or society or maybe like your
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  son John's school where you're able to be creative
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  and think outside the box you're able to get up and move around
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  even I appreciated you know in the the book that
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  you read that you wrote the Susie the ADHD taxi the
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  fact that she wanted to be able to do things differently each time she
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  wanted that freedom to explore and
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  and she was you know a people person for lack of a better term about a car you
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  know I see that I see that in one of my kids in particular where I think and
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  it's tricky and this is something I want to ask you about but as parents it
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  can be so hard to grapple with the differences of.
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  Our children who present more so as neurodivergent and our children who do not.
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  So I have three children.
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  One, I believe, is neurodivergent. The other two, I don't believe, are.
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  And then also the discrepancy between what the school system expects and then
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  what you as a parent feel or know to be best for your child.
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  And so what I wanted to ask with that is, how did you know when you needed to
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  do something differently for your son, John, and what were some of the things
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  that you did differently for him growing up?
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  And that's a pretty big question, so take it where you will.
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  Okay. Or rein me in if I'm not getting to say. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
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  So I just want to say, first and foremost, that John, if he were here and,
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  you know, he is in school, so he wishes he could say hello, but he's here in spirit.
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  But he would say to you, the first thing is his neurodivergence is a superpower.
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  It makes him who he is, and he is a wonderful, caring, smart.
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  Creative, empathetic human being.
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  And I think we all need to sort of look at our children as we raise them.
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  And as I said, I think it's important as parents not to say,
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  well, I thought my son was going to play soccer in college, you know?
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  Okay, well, you didn't get there or you did get there, but he's not going to. So who is he or she?
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  And so I think it's important to see our children.
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  Who they are. And I think if, for me, I have three, you know,
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  four children, but three who are much older than John.
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  And, you know, everyone learns differently. And as a family,
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  there are some things that everyone, every rule, some kids have,
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  you know, all kids have to follow just because, you know, you have to get up,
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  you have to go brush your teeth at night, you have to go, you know, whatever, you know.
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  But I also think sometimes within that framework, we need to be able to adjust our expectations.
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  You know, did John, could John sit down and before he went to Windward to be
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  remediated, could he sit down and read a book?
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  I couldn't expect him to come, you know, do the homework he was given before
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  he switched schools because he couldn't do it.
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  I had to help him, whereas maybe my oldest son, who was a math whiz,
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  if he had said, do my math for me, you know, I would have been like,
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  what are you talking about?
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  So I can't do that math. So I think it's important to have family,
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  you know, boundaries, but also different expectations for different children.
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  Yeah, I think that sums it up really well. I'm just going to write that down.
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  Boundaries, but then different expectations. And I imagine that's something that comes with time.
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  I mean, my kids are three, five, and seven as of today and last week.
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  They all have birthdays within a month of each other. Happy birthdays.
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  Yeah, I will pass it along. Thank you. And I think something,
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  so even today, my eldest, he's in grade one, and he is home today. He's not sick.
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  But I find that for me, and this
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  is something that I imagine can be a touchy subject for
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  for people listening so i hope that they know that it's
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  it's very individual depending on the parent
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  the child the family and i think just learning like
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  you said learning who your child is and
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  learning to adjust expectations not
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  necessarily to say oh you can't do it you can't do
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  enough but to adjust those expectations to really help them
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  thrive because my son staying home today has
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  just needed the time to play
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  on his own for hours creatively I
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  you know I he I come into the other
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  room and he's built this you know big house with all
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  these intricate details and whatever from these little straws and
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  connectors he made his own little book and he's asking our little echo dot you
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  know how do I spell this and how do I spell that and so he's still learning
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  in his own way but there's just times where he needs that space he needs that
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  opportunity to maybe not feel like he's masking around other people or that he has to follow,
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  but, you know, follow the rules.
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  But what you said earlier, too, of the importance of structure and routine and having a calendar.
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  And so I think I'm kind of in the middle of that, figuring out what works best
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  for him. And it's tricky.
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  And guess what? When you figured it out, there'll be something that zigs and
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  zags because he's a little older or, you know, something comes up and I feel like,
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  I feel like it's very important to not only get sort of the verbal cues, but the nonverbal cues.
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  Because like when John was little in school, they kept telling me he was slow
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  or he was acting out or, you know, all these negatives.
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  And I thought, I know this child is struggling with something.
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  And I didn't know what. I knew he was smart, and it wasn't just a prejudiced mom thing.
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  You know, I knew who he was.
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  And if I hadn't listened to my gut, and if I hadn't also listened to his nonverbal cues,
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  you know, I came to realize he would get up and wander because he was embarrassed
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  because the teacher was asking him to do something he couldn't do,
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  like read a page from the book.
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  And I feel like it's very important to not just listen to some of the talking
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  heads, But to sort of really know your child and know what they're like at,
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  you know, three could be different, what they're like at five, but, or, or 10.
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  But, you know, you really, and it's hard. I mean, working, kids, it's really hard.
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  But I think if one can sort of step back and sort of think about what's going
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  on maybe with their child, then I think it benefits you and your child and your whole family.
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  So would that be a piece of advice you'd have so
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  say for a parent who is struggling with
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  a child whether their child is a toddler they're in
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  elementary school they're a teenager however maybe they're adult children and
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  they're struggling would that be your advice is to focus instead of like you
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  said the talking heads is focus on who your child is it would and honestly Sometimes
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  the experts just don't know and don't know your child. But sometimes...
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  And I know it's so difficult and there are costs involved and all of that.
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  But I think it's important if
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  you can't find the answer but you know something's wrong to keep trying.
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  I mean, back in the day, you know, my computer was dial-up maybe.
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  And I had to go to the bookstore, the library to do the research.
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  And, you know, I think it's not easy to find the answer sometimes.
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  And when we decided that John would go to the school, it was a private school.
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  So we had to decide as a family, you know, I was going to drive there.
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  So that meant I wouldn't be home.
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  And it had a cost. So we decided to eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly.
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  Like we had to make a family decision.
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  We felt it was important. And then John was there for a few years and was quite
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  successful and was able to leave and could have gone to any school.
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  But we found another school where they had, you know, it was a great education,
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  but it was also a place to be creative and theater and dance.
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  And for John, for us as a family, we decided that it was important for him to
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  be able to express himself in the best way possible.
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  So, you know, circuitously, the answer is, I think.
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  I think it's really important to try to see your child and, you know,
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  at different stages, but see who that child is and what they need.
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  If we had, if you force anybody, I mean, I think anybody, child,
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  adult, to do something they're not comfortable with that they can't do,
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  the result is not going to be what you want. No.
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  So. No, and that's, I mean, that is very true.
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  It seems so basic and obvious, but at the same time, I think it is something
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  that we do struggle with with our kids is, you know, wanting them to fit into a certain system or,
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  you know, not rock the boat or not, you know, cause any commotion or anything,
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  but just recognizing and remembering
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  that that's not the right focus and looking at who our children are.
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  And I think, too, sometimes I try to remember Dr.
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  Becky Kennedy talks about the good inside, you know, and the most generous interpretation
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  of a situation and recognizing, you know, with a child that if they are acting
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  out or something's happening, what's beneath that?
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  This is just a little window in. It's not the whole picture.
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  And like you said, right, if you're being forced as an adult,
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  for example, to do a presentation or do something that you're not prepared for,
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  it's not going to sit very well.
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  I mean, maybe by then we have coping mechanisms and ways that we respond,
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  maybe, that are more socially acceptable, so to speak.
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  But when you think about being forced into something, it makes more sense when
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  you think about the way our kids maybe have pushed back or they've run away
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  or they've had these meltdowns and things like that, right?
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  This is their way, like you said, the nonverbal communication of saying, I'm not okay right now.
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  This is not good for me. I think it's hard to.
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  Something for me that's difficult is that I know for me as an adult now,
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  I can't imagine working for somebody else and having somebody else tell me what to do.
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  I love being an entrepreneur. I love being able to be creative and,
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  you know, create online courses and have these kinds of conversations that we're
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  having and work at the coffee shop with other entrepreneurs.
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  And so when I look at my son, I think it's challenging because I see some of
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  those same characteristics in him.
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  And so it's that continual discovery and balance of,
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  okay, but he also needs, you know, that environment of structure at schools
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  in some capacity, but then he needs a little bit, he needs some of that time.
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  So I appreciate what you said about, you know, finding that second school you
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  did for your son, where he was still able to be creative.
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  And I think thinking of the fact that it, you know, for me, maybe for my son,
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  maybe if it's not within school,
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  if it's outside of school, just having those different opportunities for him
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  instead of trying to squish him into a box that somebody else has created.
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  So I wanted to ask as well, what was it like for you as a mother and son duo
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  working together? What did that do for your relationship, the joys and the challenges?
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  So I have to say, I mean, John and I, because I, I drove, I mean,
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  I spent, I try to spend as much time with all my kids when they were growing
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  up as I could, obviously.
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  But John and I, because I was driving him to a school that was,
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  you know, at least 45 minutes, but often with traffic further,
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  we had a lot of, we had a lot of time together.
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  And we started immediately and
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  back in the day it wasn't like you know audible or you
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  know it was literal like cassette tapes with books we would do books on tape
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  and we would you know pause it talk about it and and we were able to to work
• 25:50
  together and communicate and we had sort of that kind of relationship where we always talked.
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  And then when we saw how this book was going and,
• 25:59
  really the wonderful outpouring we got,
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  we, even before that, we sort of decided if we were going to try to do this,
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  we would have to, we would have to not just be mother and son,
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  but we would have to take off our mother-son hats and be business partners.
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  And, you know, I think obviously like anything else. There are moments where
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  like, what are you talking about?
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  But I really feel that.
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  Really, I think both of us would, that we pretty quickly were able to be honest with each other.
• 26:35
  You know, mom, I don't like that sentence. Let's do this. Let's try this.
• 26:40
  And why don't you tweak that picture?
• 26:43
  And we also grew in different ways. So I handle a lot of the business and he
• 26:50
  handles, you know, the art and we communicate together on all of it.
• 26:55
  But we definitely have have, you know, taken our roles and we've created a wonderful
• 27:03
  business together. And it really, it brings us both joy, I think.
• 27:09
  Yeah, and I think that's what you said, right, is having it be the mother-son
• 27:13
  duo, but then business partners as well, and then learning to be honest.
• 27:18
  And I think honest communication is incredibly important and challenging.
• 27:22
  I feel like that shows a strength of your relationship in order to be able to do that.
• 27:29
  All right, so just to end us off here, are you able to let the listeners know
• 27:33
  where can they go to find out more about the work that you are doing?
• 27:39
  So we, and I appreciate the question, we love to hear from everybody.
• 27:45
  We are on almost every social media platform as Creative Cab Company.
• 27:52
  We have a website, creativecabcompany.com.
• 27:55
  In social media, you can DM us, you can follow us. We'd love to hear from you.
• 28:01
  If you would like to read the books, we'd love for you to write a review,
• 28:06
  to let us know what you think.
• 28:07
  If you go to the website, Creative Cab Company, we have not just,
• 28:12
  you know, our books, but different information about dyslexia and ADHD.
• 28:18
  And we're adding other neurodivergents. There's ways to, you know,
• 28:23
  contact us because we find, you know, the conversations that have opened up are really wonderful.
• 28:31
  And, you know, we've gone to schools to read to kids. And so it's been terrific.
• 28:37
  But those are probably the easiest ways to find us.
• 28:40
  And you can buy the books on Amazon.
• 28:43
  Or if you go into a bookstore and you don't see them, you can ask and they can
• 28:47
  order it through bookshop.org.
• 28:51
  You know, those are different ways to find us. And like I said,
• 28:54
  we'd love to hear from you.
• 28:56
  Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us today.
• 28:59
  And make sure you say hi to Jonathan for us. Tell him that we missed him here today.
• 29:04
  And yeah, I will make sure that I share that below. I think this is a really
• 29:08
  important conversation and one that a lot of people, you know,
• 29:12
  are thinking about with their kids, whether they're little or whether they're grown.
• 29:16
  And something that I will definitely be thinking more about,
• 29:19
  especially this, you know, representation in early education and how incredibly
• 29:23
  important that is. So thank you so much for being here with me today.
• 29:27
  Thank you so much for having me. It's been a really lovely conversation.