Latest / Journey to the Fringe / Lloyd Pye and his Skull

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Lloyd Pye and his Skull · Journey to the Fringe

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From the unexplained to the mundane, come join
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us on a Journey to the Fringe. No, but it's nice
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and it has a little bit everything in it's cool
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to look at It is cool to look at which is what
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you're really looking for with a podcast We are
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you're kind of bad at analogies podcast host
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Taylor and Chelsea here today Doing a Chelsea
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episode and I'll let her take it over because
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you know, I've been doing so well Welcome to
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my Chelsea episode. It's Chelsea here. To get
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where we're going, we need to start with a man
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named Lloyd Pye, which I'm fairly confident that
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you wouldn't know who this is outright. Am I
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correct in saying that, Taylor? Yeah, I'm scanning
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my brain right now thinking. Don't scan anywhere
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else until I tell you it's okay. For some reason,
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and I don't know why I'm telling you guys this,
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I just feel like we're all friends by this point.
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It's been a while. I really want to call them
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Lord pie for some reason. I Yeah, I felt that
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too. I felt like did you mean Lord pie? No, I
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didn't but that's always my default I want to
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call them Lord pie. I don't know why I don't
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know any Lloyd's in real life I've never come
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up against this problem. Maybe that's why I don't
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know Yeah, they're only there's only one other
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Lloyd and I think we all know where it came from
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and I don't even think we need to address Harry's
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best friend. Yeah. So I was born in Houma, I
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think is how you call it, Louisiana. I think
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you're just making stuff up. It's either Houma
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or Houma. I don't know. I'm very sorry for whoever's
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from this place in Louisiana. It sounds made
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up anyway. Lloyd Pye, he was born 1922 in that
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place. He earned a football scholarship to Tulane
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University in New Orleans as a running back slash
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punter from 1964 to 1968. Why are we gasping?
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That's where the monkeys crashed! I'm sorry?
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The monkeys! The monkeys with the diseases! Tulane
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University? Really? Yeah! Is this a football
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reference? No! I specifically remember, because
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I made a joke about it being a two -lane road.
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Oh, you're right! Now it's all coming back to
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me. It has to be connected. Is he monkey related?
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I think he is! Hold on to that thought, let's
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keep going. Okay. So he was the Tulane Green
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Wave football team's leading punter in 1967 to
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1968. How many punters do a football team have?
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One. They should only have one if they're okay.
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That explains a lot. They're the Tulane Green
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Waves? Wave. Green Wave, okay. Yeah. So they
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really like their adjective nouns around there.
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Yeah, they do. He later lived in Pensacola, Florida.
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Pi came to become a writer and a paranormal researcher.
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So it's all coming together now. Pi's first book,
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That Prosser Kid, written in 1977, a fictional
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account of college football was said to have,
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quote, achieved considerable recognition, end
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quote, by the Continuum Encyclopedia of American
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Literature and was called Lively but Unoriginal
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by the Boston Globe. Did it have anything to
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do with aliens or UFOs? No. Or was it, okay,
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it was just his first venture into writing. Yeah,
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it was the Prosser Kid about college football.
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Seems really boring. I wouldn't write that. Right,
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right, right. But no, no abductions, yeah. No,
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not at this time in college football. That would
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be a good read, though. Someone ought to look
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into that. It received negative reviews in the
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New York Times Book Review and the Los Angeles
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Times. His 1988 book, Mismatch, was called a
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novel that ought to go on your must -read list
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by Deseret News. Pye also gave lectures and made
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television appearances in support of his ideas
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on the Learning Channel, one of my favorite channels.
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It's changed a lot since he was on it, I'm sure.
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National Geographic Channel, Extra, Animal Planet,
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and Richard and Judy in the United Kingdom. Whatever
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the frick that is. Pi stated that - That actually
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sounds right up what TLC is now. Richard and
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Judy in the United Kingdom? Yeah. Or is it too
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tame for it now? It seems oddly specific. Yeah,
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not like my 600 -pound life that could be about
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anybody's 600 -pound life. That just sounds like
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good television. Pi stated that he believed Bigfoot
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to exist, as well as the similar Mongolian cryptid,
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the Almas. I need to look into that. I don't
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think the Almas has ever come up for us. No,
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and we've specifically covered Bigfoots of the
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world too, but there's just so many Bigfoots.
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There's a lot of Bigfoots. How do you get captivated
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by the Mongolian Bigfoot? I hope not. Sure, of
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all of them. Nothing in the background you've
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given me of him so far says that he has any connection
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to Mongolia. Okay, just wait though. I feel like
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we're picking out some dots and we're gonna connect
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them pretty soon here. So, in the 1980s, Pi wrote
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for television shows including Scarecrow and
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Mrs. King. and Magnum P .I. Never heard of Scarecrow
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and Mrs. King, didn't even want to look at it,
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didn't have time, wasn't interested. Just as
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much as checking a voicemail. So this is fairly
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bland so far, right? Totally bland. Yes, incredibly
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bland. I mean, a punter at Tulane. Yep. He's
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not doing much of anything so far. No. Who wrote
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a story about his punting years? I thought the
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same thing. And then he had to fictional - non
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-fiction - oh, I always get those ones confused.
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So this is where I had to jump to Coast to Coast
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AM. And this is where I learned information I
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couldn't find anywhere else. Which I always love.
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Lloyd Pye joined the US Army and became an agent
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for military intelligence. Interesting that this
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never came up anywhere else. During this time,
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he began an independent study of human evolution.
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His studies led him to conclude humans could
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not possibly have evolved on Earth according
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to the Darwinian paradigm. By age 40, he could
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illustrate his belief by comparing skeletons
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in the so -called pre -human fossil record with
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those reported to belong to the world's four
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basic types of humanoids. More on that in a second.
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Are you connecting any dots? Vaguely? I just
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want it. No, I wanted to ask you though. Is he
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associated with the aquatic ape theory? No, I've
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never even heard of this theory. Is this have
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to do with whales? No, it's that humans evolved
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as an aquatic ape because we're the only ape
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that's able to swim and it basically goes from
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there. It's a way way too oversimplified version
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to explain it, but basically... Hold on, apes
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can't swim? No, they can't at all. We're the
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only ones who can. Huh. okay well this is which
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explains a lot of our evolutionary differences
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between apes and us interesting it's a good place
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to bring this up i'm gonna be honest with you
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so he writes a book that i didn't bring up yet
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and it's called everything you know is wrong
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and he wrote this in the year 2000 Lloyd Pye
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presents a sweeping alternative history of humanity
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that challenges mainstream science on everything
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from evolution to the origin of life. You wouldn't
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be wrong if you noticed that none of his background
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would lead him to any sort of reason to believe
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he knows more than everybody else. Exactly, exactly.
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Okay, okay, I'm glad that was what I wanted to
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just say there. Pi's central thesis in this book
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is that humans did not evolve naturally through
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Darwinian selection. Instead, he argues that
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hominoids, like Bigfoot or Yeti, are the actual
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indigenous primates of Earth, while modern humans,
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Homo sapiens, are a genetically engineered hybrid
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species created by an advanced extraterrestrial
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race, which he often refers to as the Anunnaki.
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Okay. Yeah, so I did watch - this this is from
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the year 2000 he does a lot of like weird jokes
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a lot of homo jokes So are you talking about
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on coast to coast? No, he did so he has this
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book and he has a lot of stuff out there He's
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been on coast to coast a lot. He put out a YouTube
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he must have done like Some sort of talk like
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what would you call it talk? I don't know with
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that. Not Ted talk. I don't think it that existed
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Yeah lecture, maybe he had like a slideshow and
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everything. He was telling someone to change
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the slide on. I don't know why it didn't exist
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back then for him to change it himself. Technology
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wouldn't come along for another 26 years. We're
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only just now in the infancy. So he put it on
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a YouTube so he goes through like his whole presentation
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on it. He points to what he calls genetic anomalies
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in the human genome such as the sudden disappearance
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of two chromosomes. Humans have 46 while apes
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have 48. and the lack of junk DNA in certain
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areas as evidence of artificial splicing and
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laboratory manipulation. When he says apes have
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48 does he mean like literally all apes or like
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a specific ape? I don't know specifically. Yeah,
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okay. I'm gonna Google this while you keep going
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Yeah, be careful with what are you looking specifically
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for apes cuz you're gonna want to be surprised
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by the last I'm asking chimpanzees Okay, so I
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believe that creatures like Sasquatch and the
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Alma are I don't know why he's so obsessed with
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the Alma are the natural inhabitants of earth
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He argued that these creatures are highly elusive
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and more advanced in their survival than we give
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them credit for, serving as the biological baseline
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that aliens use to create us. He argues that
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the reason we haven't found a missing link between
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apes and humans is that one doesn't exist. The
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transition was a sudden technological event rather
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than a slow biological one. So I can pick up
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what he's putting down, I think. Other than the
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fact that I I really do believe myself that Bigfoot
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is definitely a paranormal guy. I don't think
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that he's a natural guy to Earth. I think that
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he's going in and out of portals. I think that
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he's like an ultra terrestrial guy is what I
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think of Bigfoot. Yeah, I actually I just finished
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reading the book where the footprints end and
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they really make a case for it not being a natural
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evolutionary thing. Yeah, and that's something
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that you see with these guys that talk about
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things like this. They kind of get pigeonholed
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into one view and then they can't account for
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other types of sightings and stuff like that.
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Obviously he has the scientific background to
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be able to talk about evolution and genetics
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and stuff like that, as we talked about in his
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bio. And what did you find out about the apes?
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the chimpanzees and their chimpanzees got 48
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gorillas got 48 orangutans got 48 which okay
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then if you're talking great apes yeah we are
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an outlier for that but then i googled gibbons
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because gibbons fall into the ape family but
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not the great Sorry, I always get it mixed up.
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I don't think they're in the great ape family,
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but they're still an ape and they can have anywhere
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from 38 to 52. So it's by no means just 48 for
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all in the ape family. There's so much to know
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about apes and the great apes that I didn't realize
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and us as apes being the aquatic. Apes? Yeah,
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there's also the stoned ape theory too which
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you might like, which is basically a lot of revolution
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comes from eating psychedelic mushrooms. I was
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gonna ask if you meant something about tracks.
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ah i do like that also coincidentally we're one
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of the only species out there that can throw
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things fairly accurately so that could be what
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stone refers to i'm learning so much on this
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podcast about evolution i think because i also
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didn't know and it blows my mind every day when
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i think about it that whales are just water wolves
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yeah I actually learned this week. They still
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have, like, a genetically useless pelvic bone,
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but it's proof that they evolved with hind legs.
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That's crazy! Ugh, it's always blowing my mind.
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If I... okay, anyhow. Loid... pie... goes on
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to die in 2013. Pi was diagnosed with lymphoma
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and retired from active research and promotion
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of the star child skull. He had the star child
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skull? That's what this episode's about. No way!
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Oh man, all my looking into these chromosomes
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were useless. I could have put in my own background
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music right there, but I just did it myself.
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So yeah, he's dead. Now we talk about the star
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child skull. This is probably what Lloyd is best
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known for as the caretaker of the famous star
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child skull, which Pi claimed to be a hybrid
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offspring of an extraterrestrial and a human
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female. Have we talked about it even in passing
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the Starchild skull before? I don't think so,
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no. Okay. Well, I guess this is perfect then
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because this is something that is fairly fundamental
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for fringe lore in the last 20 years. Yeah. And
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I had no idea that it was connected to Lloyd
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Pye and what he was out there doing. No, neither
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did I. Yeah, I know. But I - I must have listened
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to him because I'm fully aware of the star child
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skull. Yeah, me too. I have been for like 20
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years ish, like when he was doing this. Yeah,
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that was Lloyd. So the star child skull was reportedly
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discovered in the 1930s near a mine in Mexico's
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Copper Canyon region, an area approximately 100
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miles southwest of Chihuahua. A local young woman
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visiting relatives from El Paso, Texas, found
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it during an informal of an abandoned mine tunnel.
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She encountered a shallow grave containing the
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unusual skull of a child, partial skeletal remains
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including a small jawbone and other bones alongside
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the skeleton of a normal adult female. The discoverer
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collected the fragile remains in a cloth wrapping
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and transported them back to her family in the
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US, where they were preserved as a private artifact
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for several decades. The skull was associated
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Can you imagine just like collecting in skull
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and being like well, this is mine now Yeah, it's
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actually fairly I mean, I guess they had a lot
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less respect for like native populations in the
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30s But like I'm not finding a skull and taking
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it home That's just bringing so much, not even
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just curses, but like the cops are going to be
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talking to you at some point. Exactly! It's not
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just no respect for that culture. It's just I
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don't want a skull, like a real skull in my house.
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At some point somebody's reporting it and you're
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going to have to talk to somebody about it. Can
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you imagine going to someone's house and being
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like, is that like a real skull? Or like what's
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the story with this? Like do I need to call the
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police? I actually might not bring it up. Actually,
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I don't think you have to call the police I think
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it's something where like later on you might
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give a tip to their info line It's like you don't
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it's not a 911 call They're not putting on the
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sirens for this or just like keep it in the back
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of your mind for while you're watching Unsolved
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mysteries or America's Yeah, like apparently
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people do not usually give up that information
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freely Okay, so The skull and associated fragments
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remained out of public view, passed down through
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the family without formal documentation or analysis,
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as you do when you pass down a skull to your
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grandchildren. It's in the will. That really
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weird skull that I found on clearly Indigenous
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land. Radiocarbon dating of the skull material
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performed in 2004 by Beta Analytic in Miami,
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Florida estimated the age of the remains around
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900 years old, plus or minus 40 years, consistent
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with the burial context near the discovery site.
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In late 1998, the Starchild skull came into the
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possession of Ray and Melanie Young of El Paso,
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Texas through an anonymous source linked to the
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family of the original discoverer in Mexico.
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Man, this sounds like you make it sound normal,
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but this is so sketchy that people are buying
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skulls, human skulls. They were probably a part
17:57
of the black market. Yeah. Had to have been,
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I assume. The Youngs, with Melanie's background
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as a neonatal nurse, recognizing the skull's
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unusual features, sought expert analysis. So,
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in February 1999, the Youngs entrusted the skull
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to Lloyd Pye. an author and researcher interested
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in human origins to oversee scientific testing
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and promotion with no scientific background with
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no scientific background and like the only thing
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the Potentially saw like a lecture of his or
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knew he was into this kind of thing, but he wasn't
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into this kind of thing It I guess exactly humans.
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Yeah. Yeah human origins So yeah, clearly the
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skull that's being passed down for generations
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now. They're like, I know I know just the thing,
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this is what we've been passing the skull down
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for generations for, Lloyd Pye. This weird guy.
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I know no better thing to do with this skull
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than to give it away. That I very illegally acquired.
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Was smuggled across the border. Pi subsequently
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founded the Starchild Project, an informal organization
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dedicated to funding examinations of the skull
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and publicizing its potential significance through
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donations, lectures, a dedicated website, StarchildProject
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.com, and related merchandise. Merchandise? No
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idea what that means. Cannot get to that website
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and actually all of his websites seem defunct.
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So perhaps cuz he's dead. I don't know Sorry,
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what what was the website star child project
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calm? It looks like it hasn't been paid for maybe
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I'm not sure No, but I'm putting it in the way
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back machine. Okay. There you go. Tell us what
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the merchandise is Okay, one sec. Let's go back
19:56
to there's a hit on January 9th one snapshot.
20:00
Let's see it Nope, not connected to a website.
20:04
Yep. Let's go there. Oh yeah, it was up in at
20:07
least 2024. Okay, what's it look like? Let me,
20:12
where am I? There's that and there's this. There's
20:16
that and here's this. For some reason I don't,
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all my windows are kind of out of where they
20:21
should be because for some reason one of my screens
20:24
didn't come on, so. You're out of the way. There
20:27
we go, okay. yes let's look oh that's an artist
20:30
reconstruction it's oh wow look at that more
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reconstructions here look at that big head he's
20:37
beautiful he looks kind of like a gray alien
20:41
except they gave him a bit of a tan also the
20:45
wrong color of skin i was just gonna say i wouldn't
20:47
call that a tan that looks yellow oh yeah there
20:51
is a gray The only one that came up, he's a gray.
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Oh no. Oh no, he's definitely a gray. Is he ever
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a gray? Except that one where he's very clearly
21:00
a very deformed little Mexican child. With sunburn.
21:04
Yes. But only on the one side. Don't read that
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part. Okay, okay. why is he holding the star
21:14
child skull and saying planet x found question
21:17
mark seriously skeptical okay that's the picture
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that you always see with loid pie he's holding
21:24
the skull like that okay okay i can't seem to
21:27
find his uh yeah i don't see anywhere to buy
21:30
merch Which unfortunately won't work. Okay, so
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I should have gone in the way back missing to
21:36
look at this but too late We're already here.
21:40
Okay, Hi's early promotional activities emphasize
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the skull's distinctive physical appearance to
21:46
highlight its anomaly status and Encourage donor
21:50
support as you can see from those pictures that
21:52
you guys can't see you'll just have to envision
21:55
the way that we describe them in so much detail
21:57
He detailed these efforts in his 2007 book the
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star child skull genetic enigma or human alien
22:05
hybrid Which chronicled the initial investigations
22:09
and aimed to broaden public interest So I guess
22:13
that's maybe the merchandise plus maybe one of
22:15
those beautiful Noggins on a t -shirt or something.
22:19
It's gotta be it's minimum Yeah, beginning in
22:22
2000, Pi traveled extensively for presentations
22:26
at UFO conferences, including events in the US
22:29
and internationally, such as the 2010 Congress
22:33
in Zurich, Switzerland, where he showcased the
22:36
skull to audiences seeking evidence of extraterrestrial
22:39
connections. Billy Myers ever been to a UFO convention?
22:44
Congress? That's a good question. He seems to
22:46
have his own very distinct thing. Yeah, I don't
22:49
feel like I would say no. Yeah, no, but I don't
22:52
know. I just don't get the vibes that he's ever
22:55
been to one. I just don't feel like he leaves
22:57
his typewriter in some like small room. No, and
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I don't want her to be tainted by everybody else
23:04
out there. Yeah, exactly. So what are the physical
23:07
characteristics of this skull? The skull measures
23:11
13 centimeters from base to crown, roughly half
23:15
the size of an average adult, but it is remarkably
23:19
symmetrical. It features ballooned parietal bones
23:22
and a flattened back, creating an aberrant bulbous
23:26
shape. The internal volume is 1600 cc. This is
23:31
a massive 30 % more capacity than a typical human
23:35
child's skull and actually exceeds the average
23:39
human adult brain, which is 1350 cc by about
23:43
200 cc. I didn't realize that brains were measured
23:46
in cc. So if you're picturing the skull, it kind
23:50
of goes up. like a grate like that's why we're
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calling it a great like the cranial portion of
23:58
the head and then it's flat on the back but like
24:02
somebody clearly like inflated it like a balloon
24:05
yeah in the front probably i think that's what
24:08
it feels like to me it always feels like somebody
24:10
like just put their lips up to it and blew in
24:12
and like inflated the skull yeah i think that's
24:15
exactly how it works if i remember my doctor
24:19
school correctly medical school That's what we
24:22
call it as doctors. The cranial vault is incredibly
24:27
thin, 1 .5 to 3 millimeters, which is about half
24:31
the thickness of a normal child's skull. Despite
24:34
being thin, it is physically dense and heavy
24:36
in mineral content. I wonder what kind of minerals.
24:39
The eye sockets are shallow. 0 .5 to 0 .7 inches
24:44
deep and if you know your own eye socket deepness
24:47
that is quite shallow and lack the depth of a
24:51
normal human's like we all just speculated knowing
24:55
our own eye socket depth there are no frontal
24:57
sinuses the nasal cavity is small and locks the
25:01
typical indentation at the bridge the sagittal
25:05
suture running down the middle i don't know what
25:07
that is that's where the skull fuses isn't it
25:10
i don't know I don't know for sure, though, is
25:12
partially fused with an atypical groove rather
25:16
than a clear line. And there's a large triangular
25:20
soft spot like opening at the rear. The skull
25:24
was discovered with a partial skeleton, as we
25:27
mentioned, including ribs, a femur and a mandible,
25:31
which is, but let's face it, she threw it out
25:33
immediately. Yes, just interesting quality she
25:37
cared about. Dental development is the primary
25:42
evidence for the age. The mandible contains unerupted
25:47
permanent teeth, which is a biological clock
25:49
indicating the child was four to five years old
25:52
at death. Reconstruction of the skeletal fragments
25:56
suggests the child stood between three and four
25:58
feet tall. Yeah, that's about a four -year -old,
26:00
so. Yeah. In 2004, Beta Analytic used accelerator
26:06
mass spectrometry to date the bone. The results
26:10
showed the remains are roughly 900 years old,
26:13
dating back to approximately AD 1040 to 1260.
26:19
The child was found buried with an adult human
26:22
female. While they were buried together, DNA
26:25
later proved they were not biologically related.
26:28
Oh, interesting. Yeah, I did find that part interesting.
26:32
Lloyd Pye, an alternative history researcher
26:35
who was more than qualified to take on this project,
26:39
obviously. He was the most qualified of the three
26:42
people we heard about. No, that's not actually
26:44
true because the second was a nurse. Why would
26:47
the nurse go to this guy? He became the skull's
26:51
primary promoter in 1998. That's what the skull
26:55
needed, really, a promoter. He claimed the artifact
26:59
was a star seed, a hybrid born from a human mother
27:03
and an extraterrestrial father, likely a grain.
27:06
Oh, so it was a Nephalem, got it. Exactly. You
27:09
knew. Yeah. I propose this wasn't just a random
27:14
mating, but potentially a deliberate genetic
27:17
engineering project. He believed the offspring
27:20
was 90 % alien with the extraterrestrial DNA
27:24
overriding almost all human traits. I would really
27:29
like to know how he came to that conclusion.
27:33
Probably just guessing. He was filling time on
27:35
coast -to -coast AM. Yeah, exactly. It is all
27:39
speculation. Because he had no other choice but
27:41
to keep talking. As the sole punter for the high
27:46
school football team. University, Tulane University.
27:53
Which would later be known about their monkeys.
27:57
long after his death. He argued that the weird
28:01
features like the lack of sinuses and the strange
28:04
bone density were atavistic traits meaning a
28:08
reversion to the alien parent's physiology rather
28:11
than a human deformity. But the only reason he's
28:14
saying that is because we don't have any alien
28:16
DNA so we can't prove that they don't either.
28:19
Exactly. Or that they have it. It's just whatever's
28:22
weird is, oh we can attribute that to aliens.
28:25
Yeah. Obviously. Even though we don't know if
28:28
it actually is attributable or not. See, you
28:30
know exactly. Also, I haven't heard him say anything
28:32
about knowing anything about aliens to this point.
28:36
Well, he does talk about it in that one book
28:38
that he really likes that he wrote. Oh, that
28:41
everything you know is wrong or whatever? Oh,
28:43
yeah. Yeah. Okay. What I really liked in that
28:47
presentation that he did, I listened to it, he's
28:50
just throwing around homo like it's a joke left
28:52
and right. That's not what I liked about it.
28:55
Product of his age. I actually really hated that
28:57
about it. But he goes, everything that you know
29:01
about evolution, totally wrong. And I was just
29:07
like, who are you for us to believe that? Yeah.
29:13
That was a big thing in the early 2000s. I really
29:17
feel like a good 40 to 50 percent of presentations
29:21
from the early 2000s started with everything
29:24
you know about X is wrong. It's true. Yeah, it
29:26
was really popular back then. And then he just
29:29
comes out with this whole presentation without
29:32
saying any reason why we should believe what
29:35
he's saying. I just love that about it. He had
29:39
some like... Good for him. He had the gumption.
29:41
He did. He really did have it. He went for it.
29:45
He did, and you know, I'll get to it at the end.
29:48
Let me just continue. In the end, I think we
29:50
know who the real star child is. So where am
29:57
I? Yeah, Pi, he dies in 2013, as we already know.
30:01
We got there about a third of the way through.
30:03
Oh, wow. So somebody kept that sight up like
30:06
11 years after his death. Yeah, I wonder if they
30:09
just had that much money that it was prepaid,
30:13
perhaps? Yeah. Do we know who got the skull and
30:16
the will? Maybe. Let's take a look. It had to
30:20
have just gone down generations. The black market,
30:22
I hope. I hope it goes to the black market. So
30:26
he dies 2013, we already knew that twice now,
30:30
still vehemently rejecting any medical diagnosis.
30:35
He argued that conditions like hydrocephalus
30:38
cause random and ugly distortions, whereas the
30:41
Starchild skull was mathematically symmetrical
30:44
and beautiful. Why am I so attracted to the skull
30:48
if it's a freak skull? So, Pi's most famous proof
30:54
came from scanning electron microscopy. He claimed
30:58
to find red microscopic fibers embedded inside
31:03
the bone matrix. He described these biological
31:07
rebar that made the thin bone stronger than human
31:11
bone. That is fucking weird. And like, how did
31:15
he find these? I wonder. I wonder if he knows
31:18
about cross -contamination. Microscopy. Yeah.
31:22
Yeah. I wonder if he knows about that in his
31:24
scientific background. I mean, everything we
31:27
know about science is wrong. So cross -contamination
31:31
is probably something stupid. It might not be
31:34
the thing, actually. That we shouldn't have to
31:34
worry about. Yeah. You're right. Proponents argued
31:39
that the 1600cc brain capacity wasn't just a
31:43
swelling, it was a sign of a massive, highly
31:47
advanced brain. They claimed the shallow eye
31:50
sockets and recessed face were efficient alien
31:54
designs. To counter scientists, Pi pointed to...
31:58
Sorry, I'm just thinking. This is his argument.
32:02
No, no, this is not a deformed human. This is
32:05
a highly advanced alien. It is efficient. Look
32:09
at that beautiful symmetrical. Boy. To counter
32:16
scientists, Pi pointed to a 2003 CT scan. He
32:21
claimed that because the cranial structures weren't
32:24
completely fused or blown out, it proved the
32:27
skull grew into its shape naturally rather than
32:30
being deformed by fluid pressure. Aside from
32:33
the fibers, Pye claimed the bone contained a
32:37
strange reddish residue that defied standard
32:41
mammalian bone analysis. I am doing amazing with
32:45
my pronunciation on this episode, by the way.
32:48
I hope everyone's noticing. It's fantastic. So
32:52
let's get to the scientific analysis. I'm glad
32:55
I didn't fuck that one up. That one was easy.
33:00
So first we got the morphological and anatomical
33:04
studies. The expert verdict. Medical professionals
33:08
including neurologist Stephen Novella and forensic
33:11
anthropologist Mary Mannheim. This is what I
33:15
like to hear with my scientists. That's exactly
33:18
what I'm looking for. Concluded, the skull is
33:21
a textbook case of congenital hydrozygals. No,
33:24
but Lloyd said it wasn't. And it's got red. Idiots.
33:31
And you know he was the leader of your first
33:33
high school football team? Do you know that everything
33:38
you stupid scientists know about science is wrong?
33:43
Did they even address that? They did not So he's
33:48
got them there the condition causes Cerebral
33:52
spinal fluid to pool in the brain Creating intense
33:56
internal pressure in a child whose skull hasn't
34:00
hardened this pressure balloons. Oh my god, Taylor
34:03
You call it the bones outward. They said balloon
34:07
you said yeah, they blew them out Thinning them
34:13
and creating shallow eye sockets as the face
34:16
is displaced. Thinning them and creating shallow
34:18
eye sockets as the face is displaced. It's almost
34:21
like it explains everything. Wow. It's almost
34:25
as if it's super simple and actually not the
34:27
only example of it. It's so weird. I know. Just
34:29
somebody happened to steal a skull. So... In
34:34
2005, fibroscope exams showed the bone was highly
34:39
porous, which scientists say is evidence of the
34:41
body trying to remodel the bone quickly under
34:44
the stress of fluid pressure. So for the DNA
34:48
sequencing and genetic testing, I bet you're
34:51
all on the edge of your seats, tell us what the
34:53
genetic testing is. The Bureau of Legal Dentistry
34:57
in Vancouver, huh? This all seems very weird
35:00
to say in a sentence about genetic testing. Yeah,
35:04
I was wondering where you're going with that.
35:06
I don't know. Let's continue to find out where
35:08
I'm going with it. Found both X and Y chromosomes.
35:12
Do dentists do genetic testing? Hmm. I might
35:18
have to ask next time I'm in there. And then
35:22
tell them not to genetic test you. Yeah, please
35:25
don't. There's things we don't want to know.
35:26
Like if we have cavities you just keep that to
35:29
yourself. Do you think that's what genetic testing
35:32
is? Anyhow, this was a let's just it was the
35:36
only bank dentist around apparently who could
35:39
do this genetic test and they had to send it
35:41
to Vancouver This was a massive blow to the hybrid
35:47
theory because the Y chromosome confirms a human
35:50
father I mean, they still have a little bit more
35:53
schooling than I guess Lloyd Pie has, even if
35:56
they are a dentist doing genetic testing. Trace
36:01
genetics recovered DNA from the mother's side.
36:04
It was 100 % human. Specifically, Native American
36:09
haplogroup C. That is very specific. Yeah, an
36:13
indigenous group in the area at the time. Yeah,
36:17
and probably cursed, but that obviously didn't
36:19
come up in the genetic testing. No, once you
36:22
put it on the black market, the curse comes off,
36:24
as far as I'm aware. Oh, really? Interesting,
36:27
I'd never heard that put forth before. Pi later
36:31
claimed that new shotgun sequence showed segments
36:38
of DNA that didn't match anything in the human
36:41
genome. Geneticists reanalyzed these claims in
36:45
2013 and they found that the anomalous DNA was
36:49
actually contamination from soil bacteria and
36:52
fungi, a common issue with 900 -year -old bones.
36:57
No peer -reviewed journal has ever confirmed
36:59
a single alien gene in the sample. I wonder if
37:03
they've ever confirmed one anywhere. I don't
37:05
think so. Anyhow, the consensus and explanations
37:09
of the star child skull. I'm sure you guys are
37:13
maybe getting some feelers out for the star child
37:16
skull at this point. The scientific community
37:19
views the star child as a tragic human case.
37:22
The flattened back of the head, if you'll remember
37:25
me mentioning, is consistent with cradle boarding,
37:29
a common cultural practice in ancient Mexico
37:32
where infants were bound to wooden boards, which
37:35
would have the effects of the hydrocephalus.
37:39
Despite claims of alien fibers, chemical testing
37:42
shows the skull is made of calcium hydroxyapatate,
37:47
which is the standard material for all mammalian
37:50
bone. Many scientists and ethicists criticized
37:54
the Starchild project for its commercialization.
37:57
They argued that Pi used a deceased disabled
38:00
child as a freak show attraction to sell books
38:03
and DVDs ignoring conclusive DNA evidence for
38:07
over a decade. The skull remains in the private
38:10
possession of Melanie Young. Ah, we did get answers.
38:13
I'm so happy when you ask a question and it is
38:16
actually in here. No new testing has been conducted
38:19
in years and the case is now used in anthropology
38:23
as a cautionary tale of how pseudoscience can
38:26
overshadow real human history. That's the end
38:29
of my episode. I was kind of hoping they were
38:32
gonna return the skull once they realized it
38:34
was human to like the tribe. That was my exact
38:38
thought at the end. I'm very disappointed that
38:42
Melanie Young still has the possession. And then
38:43
let them make money off putting it on the black
38:46
market, at least. Exactly. It's not your skull
38:49
that you smuggled out of Mexico to be able to
38:52
make that decision. It should be the keepers
38:54
of the skull's decision to put it on the black
38:57
market. Yeah, in fact, it seems like every time
38:59
it makes a move, they're trying to get it further
39:00
away from Mexico. It's true. Another theory on
39:03
why they put it to Vancouver Dentist to DNA test.
39:07
You know, the Vancouver dentistry scene is crazy
39:13
for genetic testing. Heads and tails above all
39:20
other dentists. Here, it's all the buzz on the
39:23
street around Vancouver. Anyhow, so here's my
39:27
thoughts on this now that we've concluded this.
39:31
I think the craziest thing about this is does
39:35
this remind you of anything? It should. Is it
39:38
the monkeys? Because I keep thinking back to
39:41
monkeys. Okay, but the funny thing is monkeys
39:43
did come up repeatedly in this episode, so it
39:47
was so weird that it was foreshadowed in his
39:50
early life years after he died with the diseased
39:54
monkey crash. It would have been like very fitting
39:56
it was like the week he died or something like
39:58
that. But no, like over a decade later. Okay,
40:03
if I were to say what other human remain skeleton
40:09
was exploited. Oh, yeah, it's Stephen Greer.
40:15
I can't remember. Yes. Yep. That he had to dissect
40:21
because he was the doctor. So I love that there's
40:24
a Stephen Greer connection here. But when you
40:27
take yourself back and you look at it, from like
40:29
a bird's eye view isn't this such a weird subheading
40:33
of this community which is just like literally
40:37
proven human remains and they just can't accept
40:41
that they're like human remains yeah They just
40:45
don't look like you would expect so there there's
40:47
something wrong with it There's a distinct deformity
40:50
and especially like the this individual didn't
40:53
live long in either situations Yeah, and it's
40:56
just exploitative, but these guys are like I
40:59
will take those and I will prove to you that
41:02
it's alien It's just such a weird thing if you
41:06
look at it from that point of view. Yeah but
41:09
there's and there's other ones out there too
41:11
it's not just the two i know it's so weird and
41:15
you know what else it reminds me of is these
41:18
other bigfoot episodes that we've been looking
41:21
at which were long in the past but it was just
41:26
people from different cultures that were collected
41:28
as like a part of a circus or exploited as something
41:32
because the racial undertones of the time allowed
41:36
it yeah basically and it like to me this reads
41:39
kind of the same like there's just like you're
41:42
not wrong undertones of the same thing in a weird
41:45
paranormal way and i think that's a weird part
41:49
of the paranormal community Yeah, and it's definitely
41:52
a thing of, like, these specific cultures don't
41:55
have as much value as ours. So both on the fact
42:00
that we can just take their dead if we want to.
42:05
Yeah. But also, like, we can't attribute the
42:08
actual, like, beautiful things that they built
42:10
way back in the day to them because they're an
42:12
inferior culture. Exactly. Yeah. Huh. It's a
42:16
weird connection now that you think about it.
42:18
Isn't it though? Yeah, and it's not yeah, it's
42:21
not just the bodies. It's treating the culture
42:23
as inferior which is just like a Secondary thing
42:27
within the community it is it's definitely treating
42:31
a human life lesser than because it's not your
42:34
own No, because if you're like walking through
42:37
I don't know Winchester on your way home from
42:41
cricket practice late for your crumpets and you
42:44
come across that you're not going to take that
42:47
is like an inferior like skull home because you
42:50
understand that it like it's a person yeah no
42:54
isn't it it's so weird and you don't often hear
42:58
it it talked about in paranormal circles as a
43:02
part of this culture. So I just think it's really
43:05
weird. And I kind of like that this episode kind
43:08
of draws all those in together and I can make
43:11
that connection. Because when you look at, and
43:14
we look at things like this and that we look
43:16
at assholes in the paranormal, we look at paranormal
43:19
a little bit differently. I love the paranormal,
43:21
but there's all these weird things that get us
43:24
into the paranormal. There's a lot of problems
43:25
with the community. There's a lot of problems.
43:28
And this is a huge problem. I'm thinking because
43:32
there's a lot of weird things that are just outside
43:35
of what you view as normal in your realm that
43:39
is associated with paranormal, which is a problem.
43:43
It's not necessarily paranormal. It's just something
43:46
that you think. can't exist within the normal
43:50
realm of humanity and it does yeah because how
43:53
could these stupid people down here do it exactly
43:56
it must be a bigfoot or a fucking alien hybrid
43:59
and i must take this with me to parade it around
44:03
and exploit so weird and just completely disregard
44:07
anybody who tells me differently like i can write
44:10
off anybody even if it's genetically tested And
44:15
in all cases, the scientists who actually put
44:19
your input in were so fucking wrong. I would
44:23
love so badly. To find a case where a scientist
44:28
tells them that like, oh, this is just a human
44:31
and they go, oh, my God, I desecrated the grave.
44:35
I need to return this. I need to apologize to
44:37
the tribe and I need to move on with my life.
44:41
Well, we certainly wouldn't be talking about
44:43
that. I want to find that case. That would be
44:46
a good episode. That would be a really good episode.
44:48
I just feel like it's never happened. I know.
44:53
Just give it a UFO community vibes. They don't
44:56
put those vibes out at all. Nope. So any thoughts?
45:00
Those are my thoughts. That's a - you've left
45:03
me a lot to really think about within the community
45:06
and this, like, background racism that, well,
45:10
ethnocentrism that is attached to this community
45:12
of just, like, we are the superior group here.
45:15
You know what? There's a lot of ethnocentrism
45:19
in this group, a lot of it. There is. It's also
45:22
a very white group. I was just gonna say, if
45:26
you continue on that thought, there's a lot of
45:29
Nazis, too. Not like Nazis, but like Nazi lords.
45:33
Just adjacent to Nazis, and yeah. And there are
45:37
Nazis, too. Let's face it. Yeah, there's a lot
45:39
of implications to this episode, I guess. We've
45:43
tied it like it maybe this is the unifying theory
45:46
of weird Yeah, maybe this is it which really
45:50
weirdly plays in with our fringy nitties on the
45:52
rise of white supremacy Yeah, yeah Any I I got
46:00
too many things going in my head right now to
46:02
like give you a unified statement outside of
46:05
what I've already said Because wow like that
46:09
I don't think it's necessarily just from this
46:11
episode, but that just clicked for you and it's
46:13
now clicked for me that this is a huge problem.
46:16
And you know what? Going into this episode, that
46:19
didn't click for me. No, it's supposed to be
46:21
a fun episode, right? And it clicked for me when
46:23
I was like, this reminds me of the Atacama skull,
46:26
which was definitely a miscarried fetus that
46:30
was exploited. And this too was exploited. And
46:33
then I was like, wow, this also reminds me of
46:35
the Bigfoots. So it just all came together. The
46:39
timing of remembering episodes worked really
46:41
well on this one. I know, right? We've done it
46:44
again. Yeah. That's journalism. Oh man. I didn't
46:49
want to be depressed in this way right now. We
46:54
should be depressed though, because it's very
46:56
fitting of our style of podcasting. Our critiquing
47:00
of the community, yeah. I don't know, it just
47:02
makes me a little sadder that we're also looking
47:05
at a group for this, with this issue. Yep, yep,
47:09
yeah. Yeah, I think this is a good place to stop,
47:12
just because my mind's running. You guys can
47:14
move on to something more fun, because man, that's
47:16
a depressing answer to everything here. Yeah,
47:19
it really is. I have been Taylor, here with Chelsea.
47:21
We are Journey to the Fringe. Thank you all for
47:23
listening and we'll see you next week. Bye. Thank
47:26
you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. If
47:28
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