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The Politics of Love · Think Twice Show

0:01
Two parent households do better. Or at least that's what we're
0:04
told. But the strongest predictor of a
0:07
child's outcomes isn't talent OR even education, is how much
0:11
their parents earn. So the solution seems obvious.
0:15
Start a nuclear family, 2 incomes and a stable
0:18
environment. But why is that the answer?
0:22
Because it wasn't always this way.
0:25
For most of history, children weren't raised by just two
0:27
people. They were raised by a village,
0:30
extended family, older siblings and neighbours who shared the
0:34
workload of raising kids. What changed?
0:38
Was it the industrial revolution?
0:40
Monotheist religion? Neoliberalism?
0:44
Or maybe the nuclear family was just a natural progression for
0:47
humanity? Either way, now that the village
0:51
has disappeared, income is everything.
0:54
So when we say two parent households do better, are we
0:57
describing what's best for children?
0:59
What's best for the system? And if it wasn't always this
1:02
way, how did we actually get here?
1:20
Welcome to Think Twice. However, you're joining us
1:22
today. Whether you're listening,
1:24
watching, we really appreciate you making us part of your day.
1:28
My name is Benz. My name is Santa.
1:30
And today we're discussing love, romance, marriage.
1:35
It's that time of the year, right?
1:36
It's that time of the year. So that's what we're going to
1:38
sort of try and talk about in the way we do things, I guess.
1:42
Yeah, let's get into it. Does monogamy work because
1:45
people want it or because they need it to survive?
1:48
I struggled with this question. Let me be honest because I want
1:52
to say that people are forced into it and that will coerce
1:56
into monogamy I really wanted. To I knew you wanted to bro.
2:01
But then I looked in the mirror and I was like, Sam, what kind
2:04
of life do you live in, bro? Do you know what I mean?
2:06
Like, be honest here. And I love monogamy.
2:10
I love my relationship and I love my little life that I have
2:13
grown for me. So I'm not going to sit here and
2:15
and lie. Let me let me answer the
2:17
question, Doesn't monogamy work because people want it?
2:19
I do think people want it. On the whole.
2:22
There is a coercive element that society has and we'll explore
2:26
that in a bit more detail. But I'm going to err on the side
2:29
of people actually do want monogamy.
2:31
I agree. Yeah, I I don't think monogamy
2:33
came about because people wanted it.
2:35
Yeah, I think they needed it to survive.
2:36
Like particularly when agricultural broom started,
2:41
people needed it for that inheritance and they had all
2:43
their properties and hair bonds made sense to look after
2:45
children and obviously before what often happened is the
2:49
biggest the strongest man dominated the majority of the
2:53
women, which caused chaos within society.
2:56
It just like it helped for social stability to have
2:58
monogamy right. Fortunately, if there's one
3:00
thing capitalism has done, I would say like, because what
3:05
capitalism has done is make those things not as important
3:09
and you have a bit more freedom and a bit more autonomy.
3:12
The reasons why monogamy came into place to survive are no
3:15
longer prevalent themes. And you're only doing it because
3:20
you're choosing it, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:22
I think a lot has happened since the start of monogamy and where
3:24
we are today. I think we'll probably now
3:27
getting to a point where I think some people need to pair up with
3:31
people to buy a house or like, afford rent.
3:34
So we might be getting back to a time where people need monogamy
3:38
to survive financially. But I think emotionally now,
3:41
what, a bit more free than we used to be.
3:44
Yeah, exactly. I think people can choose on a,
3:46
on an emotional level how they want their romantic
3:48
relationships to look. But yeah, I, I think it's a,
3:51
it's an interesting point that you you brought up about like
3:54
in, in, in, in the industrial revolution, right?
3:56
Yeah. And the agricultural part just
3:58
before. Right, OK, so the the move from
4:01
agriculture to like towns, cities and and in the industrial
4:05
revolution, talk to me a bit more about that.
4:06
So how do you see the industrial revolution having force people
4:10
into monogamous nuclear families?
4:12
Monogamy happened in the sort of like various different ways and
4:16
one of the ways were the women lived far from each other
4:20
circle. It meant that men had to just
4:24
pair onto the women that were closest to them.
4:26
If we, if we're looking at like the 9th sort of 50s time in
4:29
America, which is a bit after that, the Industrial revolution,
4:33
but like in that sort of time, the American narrative was that
4:38
this is the way a family should look because it was beneficial
4:42
for society. This is actually something
4:44
around capitalism at this point. They had the boom after the Cold
4:48
War, and after the Cold War the middle class sort of surged and
4:53
there was like a population surge.
4:55
And they were like Psas around the country that broadcasting
4:59
how a family should look. Yeah, it's weird because
5:01
obviously there's a it's a blend, right?
5:03
It's like on some level you need it to survive.
5:05
On some level people do want monogamy, but on some level you
5:09
are you're sort of in a subconscious where coerced into
5:12
monogamy. It's drilled into you from a
5:15
very young age. That boy picks girl and they
5:19
make a family and have kids and live happily ever after and
5:23
you're loyal and you commit to one another.
5:25
You have this sort of dream of like rocking on the porch with
5:29
your wife, like in your 80s, like because you've lived,
5:33
you've had a 60 year marriage. It's kind of like an image
5:36
that's portrayed in society and forced down your throat a little
5:38
bit. So subconsciously you do want
5:40
it. It's.
5:40
Weird because it's it's happened from lots of different times and
5:44
lots of different reasons why we're actually sitting here
5:46
today thinking that monogamy is like the right thing.
5:49
You know what I mean? Because when you even think
5:50
about the French Revolution, the reason why it happened then and
5:55
they were like it was forced upon them is because it went
5:58
from the feudal system. They've got out of the feudal
6:01
system. They've had their revolution and
6:03
now they have a state before, they didn't have a state before.
6:06
They had before, they had obviously different kings and
6:08
nobles and marquess's and whatever.
6:12
And so the idea is that they thought the government were
6:15
going to tax the children, tax people for having children.
6:18
So they were like, no, we're bringing them in and they're
6:20
becoming part of the family. And that's how we're staying
6:23
monogamous because this is the group that this is a whole unit
6:27
in and of itself. And I say that to say this, that
6:31
we don't know truly why monogamy is considered right.
6:36
If you look at Genesis 224, it says you leave your mother and
6:42
father and cleave onto your woman and you become one.
6:46
And the Catholic Church had a massive part in it.
6:49
And then obviously the French Revolution had a massive part in
6:51
it. You just don't know where it
6:52
starts. And when you're doing research,
6:53
you're like, which is the, the, the start of this?
6:57
It's really hard to tell. It's mad because obviously the
6:59
Bible is kind of like foundational text and it informs
7:02
society today. And in the Bible you literally
7:05
have it that like, you know, God made woman from man's flesh.
7:11
So it's very difficult like to pinpoint, but I think that theme
7:15
runs all the way through modern society and it's with us today.
7:17
Though but what's weird with that?
7:19
Even with the idea of the Bible, there was still loads of
7:22
polygamy that existed that existed before.
7:25
So like I was even looking at different groups and even like
7:29
the way we understand. Polygamy, though, it's more like
7:32
hypergamy, the one where there's one man and many, many women in
7:36
some was it actually is there? Is there?
7:38
Polyamory in the Bible? No.
7:40
Oh, sorry, I'm not talking about the Bible.
7:41
Oh, sorry, I was. Talking about I was talking
7:43
about societies, I was going to say what versus that?
7:47
So the Bibles obviously existed. And then in other societies that
7:50
haven't accepted this polygamy exists.
7:53
Do you get what I mean? So they, they and how we
7:55
understand family is even confusing too, because like when
7:59
you look at family, there are, there are places like weirdly
8:04
enough, even us, you call my mum, what Auntie, right.
8:08
I'll call your mum auntie. There are cultures that we're
8:10
very familiar with, white cultures, they don't do that.
8:12
Do you know what I mean? And they find that weird.
8:14
So like how we even understand family is different.
8:17
Some, there are some cultures in which the sisters of the mother,
8:21
they call them mummy. And if you even know, in like
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Nigerian culture, some people call them big mummy.
8:26
And so like, the family is just such a weird sort of space, but
8:30
you've obviously chosen monogamy.
8:31
And then that's come from all of that.
8:33
But yeah, today we choose it because we want it what I want.
8:36
To talk about is like, why do we actually continue to pick
8:39
monogamy, right. So so me and you would pick
8:41
monogamy. We we have chosen that in our
8:43
own lives. And when I was thinking about
8:45
this, like really, truly, deeply, obviously I consider
8:49
myself to be a fairly open minded person.
8:50
I consider myself to be fairly receptive to new ideas,
8:54
research, change my mind and adapt as a person.
8:58
But there's something about being in a romantic relationship
9:01
and that romantic relationship happening behind closed doors
9:04
that I think maybe has made me more conservative around like
9:10
new age relationship structures. Do you see what I'm saying?
9:13
Because like you do your relationship in private, you
9:16
don't do it in front of everyone else.
9:18
So you don't have external feedback from other people that
9:22
you might do when you're say talking about politics or you're
9:24
talking about the economy, right?
9:26
You might do that in front of your friends, but you the more
9:29
intimate parts of a relationship and this obviously the sexual
9:33
part of your relationship, you do that behind closed doors.
9:35
And it just dawned on me that maybe I'm stuck in monogamy
9:40
because I do my relationship and everyone does it, right?
9:43
And I was wondering like whether you think that that thought
9:47
process has a has any merit? I I actually say this a lot for
9:50
like a few other things. We live our life in memory and
9:53
when you actually deep it like we live what we think happened,
9:57
that's the majority of our life, right.
9:59
So the moment, the moment you now produce that memory and that
10:04
memory becomes open for other people to impose their memory on
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your memory. How you think about that memory
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is now different. And you don't want to think
10:12
about that memory different. You want to think about that
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memory the way you think about that memory.
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And that is the problem, I think with having a sort of not a
10:22
problem. But that's that's why I don't
10:23
choose to have a sort of open relationship or maybe even a
10:27
public relationship, because you're allowing people to impose
10:32
their memories onto your memories and change the memory
10:36
that you have that you were happy about.
10:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah. People can influence your
10:40
reality. Exactly.
10:42
But I would say on some level that's a good thing when it's
10:44
people that you trust, you love and you respect their opinion, I
10:48
guess so, you know what I mean? Like you, you would want
10:50
feedback from like if you, if you live in a world about
10:54
feedback, like you could just get a bit lost, right.
10:56
So like, surely you need a bit of feedback, like a touch from
11:00
the people that you love. Yeah, like the people, but.
11:02
Still like the difference between I think the two of like
11:06
polyamorous relationship and feedback would be I'm getting
11:11
feedback from you from my memory, whilst the polyamorous
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they've had a different take on the same memory.
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Does that make sense? So, like, we experienced the
11:23
same dinner, but you thought it was terrible and I thought it
11:25
was really good. Do you get what I mean?
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And and now, because they thought it was terrible, their
11:30
memory of that imposes on your memory of the thing you thought
11:32
was really good. Yeah.
11:34
And that's probably the slight difference, I think, between the
11:36
two. Yeah.
11:36
Yeah. Yeah, obviously at some point in
11:38
life, like you need the feedback to just just settle down.
11:41
Yeah, just relax. Like I've, I've really picked
11:43
this now. Don't tell me too much.
11:47
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But it's fascinating like that.
11:49
It literally dawned on me. I was like, because obviously
11:52
Tammy has friends who are Polly, right?
11:55
And she, she watches this like show like called the Polly
11:57
couple. Basically she's like she
12:00
consumes Polly Media, let's call it that.
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And she'll jokingly like talk about Polly and I'm like, I shut
12:07
it down straight. I shut it down straight away.
12:11
I'm having none of that. And she's, she's with me on
12:14
that. Like, it's not like we disagree,
12:16
but she likes to tease me a little bit about it.
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And I was like, you know, I would never be Polly, but like,
12:21
why do I have such a visible reaction?
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Do you know what I mean? And I'm, I'm thinking like, I
12:25
guess I've not had any feedback #1 and #2 like, I've picked me.
12:30
I'm not. And also, I, I do think I don't
12:33
have any personal experience of success from this type of
12:39
relationship. If there was like significant
12:41
amount of success from this type of relationship that I knew
12:44
personally, then I guess I'd probably feel different about
12:47
it. But even from afar, I haven't
12:49
seen much success and, and lots of happiness.
12:52
Therefore, I, that's probably why you have that reaction to
12:55
it. You've got to understand that
12:56
when I was speaking about the history of monogamy and the
12:59
history of sort of the nuclear family coming together, that has
13:03
somewhat become evolution. You get what I mean?
13:07
It has changed the way the brain works because it has been for so
13:10
long. The way we actually see it, it's
13:12
not as simple as shedding conditioning.
13:14
Some would actually argue it's like biological at this point,
13:17
which is interesting because cheating wouldn't exist if it
13:20
was. Like, there's a lot of critiques
13:21
to it. If you look at even animal
13:23
Kingdom, there's not many other animals that are monogamous.
13:27
Geese are the most monogamous. Even Penguins are supposed to be
13:30
monogamous but they cheat like it's it's very difficult to find
13:34
a truly monogamous creature so. But people do argue that it is
13:38
part of our evolution and what we've become.
13:40
Agreed. Agreed.
13:41
What I want to talk about a little bit is the ideal
13:44
structure of a family, right? We both grew up in two parent
13:48
households, but obviously there are other ways to bring up kids.
13:52
And what I kind of want to explore is this idea of the
13:56
village, right? Is it possible even in modern
13:59
society to bring up a kid in a village sort of structure?
14:03
And obviously you have extended family in London, right?
14:05
When you grew up, it wasn't just mum, dad, brothers, it was also
14:09
aunties, also cousins. How do you feel looking back on
14:12
your childhood now that impacted your sort of holistic upbringing
14:16
as a kid? Because I never had that.
14:18
Did you not? Yeah, I was nuclear family and
14:20
and Amanda, I swear. Yeah, I never had.
14:22
Oh, I didn't realise. Everyone's back home.
14:24
Oh. Right, Yeah, So I, I had a lot
14:27
of family, a lot of family in in London do.
14:30
You did your aunties and uncles share the load of like bringing
14:34
you boys up or was it more just being around and and community?
14:38
They did. They did.
14:39
Particularly my grandma, I spent a lot of time in her flat when
14:42
we were younger. She used to pick us up from
14:43
school basically. My mum's the oldest of five, so
14:46
her siblings like her, the youngest siblings only what, 910
14:50
years older than me. So obviously I have a close
14:52
relationship with her. And the rest of them sort of
14:54
came round the house a lot. Yeah, I spent a lot of time with
14:56
them. And then my dad's one of six,
14:58
but he's the second oldest and the eldest has children exactly
15:02
the same age as us, me and my brothers.
15:04
So I think we all relied on each other.
15:07
It it's so weird because I've only ever experienced that.
15:09
I've only known that. And I feel like probably that's
15:12
part of the reason why I've always felt accepted that I've
15:15
never ever felt, thank God, like I've never felt other in my
15:18
life. Not, not at any moment.
15:21
And I've always attributed that to, to sport maybe, or like
15:26
being bigger or like whatever it was like.
15:28
But it's probably that that when I think about it, I've always
15:31
had people that are around my age that there's similar to me
15:36
in some sort of sense. And then I've always had like a
15:38
big family that like, you know, people like you're loved at
15:41
home. I'm loved at home.
15:42
Do you get what I mean? So that's probably what I've
15:44
never ever felt other than my life like.
15:46
And I felt super comfortable because I was that before I I
15:49
guess did any sport or had any sort of success in in that
15:54
sense. I guess looking back at school I
15:56
felt it was something the white boys didn't have.
16:00
Like. We had that.
16:02
As Africans we had that, but we, I don't feel like the white boys
16:05
had that. And obviously I can't speak for
16:07
them, but it always felt like we had a unit at school and that
16:12
came from home. I felt like when we came to
16:14
school and we were the group of black boys, I felt like you man,
16:18
were my family almost. I've treated you the same way.
16:21
But I just felt like the white boys didn't have that.
16:23
So I did feel a bit sorry for them on that level.
16:25
And there's, there's something about Western culture here in
16:27
the UK that there's no village. It's just a bag of families.
16:32
Yeah. And I feel like there's
16:33
something missing and and. And I do think, not to say this
16:36
is impossible, but polyamory isn't linked to the idea of a
16:40
big family, no? Or even a family.
16:42
Do you get what I mean? Like the the concept of it is
16:44
not linked. So that's probably part of the
16:47
reason why people choose monogamy, for this reason behind
16:51
the family and to have the benefits of a family, I think.
16:54
Yeah, and and to be able to bring up kids in a stable
16:56
environment for sure. But yeah, I think, I think I
16:58
blame Maggie Thatcher basically for the loss of community in
17:01
this country. I weren't there to give first
17:04
hand experience, but when Maggie Thatcher says there's no such
17:09
thing as community, mainly even society, no such thing as I
17:13
said, no such thing as community, no she unfortunately.
17:14
The no such thing as society. You might be right, we'll Fact
17:17
Check it off, but she was anti community.
17:21
She wanted people to feel like they were an individual in a in
17:26
in a in a system and had individual autonomy.
17:29
But really what that means is you sever yourself from your
17:32
neighbours, your friends, your your extended family.
17:35
So I would attribute that feeling of individualism in this
17:38
country to manufacture and neoliberalism more generally.
17:42
But we got our thing, at least at.
17:44
Least at least for now. OK, on to the next segment.
17:53
Has capitalism essentially decided who is relationship
17:57
material? I think capitalism has.
17:59
I think capitalism has commodified us and treats
18:04
individuals as commodities on a dating market to be bought and
18:08
sold and to have value and to be traded.
18:11
But. I, I feel like in modern society
18:14
is, is a known thing, like people know that that's that's
18:17
the case and people try to resist it.
18:19
Like people don't overtake rather than how much money
18:23
someone has or how what they can do for you.
18:26
So it's a yes, but for me, yeah, mine.
18:29
'S a mine's a no. Really.
18:30
Yeah, why you look back at the question like that?
18:35
It's like, let me understand it. I actually probably started
18:41
where you started. I actually had an epiphany while
18:43
I was sitting there. OK, OK.
18:44
I just started laughing at myself.
18:45
I've done that. I had like an hour worth of
18:47
research and then I just started laughing at myself.
18:49
Like, no, we're on the other side.
18:51
But history and data show people value security, competence,
18:55
status, emotional safety and attraction, right?
18:59
The difference now is those things are just measurable.
19:03
Those things have always been there.
19:05
And it's measurable in the sense of job title, lifestyle,
19:09
productivity, ambition, barrier to entry for most people, like
19:13
obviously there are, there are there were exceptions to the
19:16
rule for most people is a minimum level of like income.
19:21
For most people, they pass that barrier and what ends up
19:25
actually happening is the other things take precedent, and it's
19:29
whether you have those things. And I guess like capitalism
19:32
plays a role in showing us exactly what those things are
19:35
and making it a bit clearer. But those things have always
19:37
been there. So what?
19:39
What are the things again? I've got.
19:40
Stability, I said. Security, competence, status,
19:45
emotional safety and attraction. Yeah, I.
19:47
I think, I think though, wouldn't you say that
19:50
capitalism, the idea that these things are to be measured or
19:54
they are measurable and we should value the measurement,
19:57
whatever the measurement is, don't you think that that's a
19:59
remnant of capitalism? Capitalism wants commodities to
20:03
be measurable and valuable and like rankable, but that denies
20:07
our basic humanity, doesn't it? Humans are not there to be
20:11
ranked and measured like we are. So much more than that.
20:14
We're complex creatures. Yeah, but I I don't think
20:16
capitalism decided whose relationship material.
20:20
I do think it plays a massive role in relationships and like,
20:25
and it and it sort of changed the psychology of relationships
20:28
and like, the richer you are, the more you think of your
20:31
relationship as a commodity or. Transaction.
20:35
Yeah, it's sort of like, oh, this one didn't work, on to the
20:38
next one we get. That's how that's why the
20:40
richest people have the highest rate of divorce.
20:42
It's like this one didn't work, we'll go get the next one.
20:45
But I don't think it's actually decided who's relationship
20:49
material in that sort of sense. Yeah, yeah.
20:51
So I, I don't think we're actually that far away from each
20:53
other. I I guess when I read the
20:55
question I don't think it needs to have decided it 100% for my
20:59
answers to be yes. The way I'm sort of thinking
21:01
about it is like if if capitalism did, rich people
21:05
would probably have the best relationships and poor people
21:08
would be kind of universally. Single.
21:10
Not quite though, because I would argue capitalism.
21:13
The success of a a true bond in in a relationship is not the
21:18
concern of capitalism. If capitalism has constructed
21:21
the relationship market, let's say, the way capitalism would
21:24
measure success is not through successful relationship.
21:27
Do you know what I mean? It's a different.
21:29
Maybe like it would actually probably benefit from breaking
21:34
up and getting back together and breaking up and getting back
21:36
together because obviously the divorce market and the wedding
21:39
market is a massive ecosystem, for example, 100.
21:42
Percent OK, 100% Marx talks about capitalism, the way
21:47
capitalism actually structures of reality, right?
21:51
As a materialist, he he believes that capital forces and the
21:56
material reality that you live in basically constructs your
22:00
reality, right. And in the sense that capitalism
22:04
has told people what is valuable in the day and market, I think
22:08
it has impacted who believes themselves to be relationship
22:11
material. We've spoken to friends and
22:13
obviously when we're a bit younger, guys who feel like they
22:16
just need to get the right job, they need to move out of their
22:20
parents house and they need a car before they can go and get
22:23
the goal. Right, that's that's not
22:25
uncommon. It's not uncommon.
22:26
And and the reason why that guy thinks that is because his
22:30
reality has been constructed by capitalism, right?
22:33
He believes himself to be worthy once he has all those things and
22:36
his value has reached a certain metric, a measurable metric, and
22:40
at that point he's relationship material.
22:42
I agree with all of that. Yeah, the reason the way I sort
22:45
of looked at it was not internally obviously like not
22:50
probably. I definitely looked at it as a
22:53
male female relationship and male woman relationship.
22:58
And man and woman. Yeah, man and woman.
23:00
Relationship we got there then. I said FEMA.
23:07
I said don't come through you. Where the fuck?
23:09
I said oh fuck, but man and woman relationship and the the
23:15
point around courting, you get what I mean?
23:18
That's how I looked at how women would value the things that you
23:22
have right? And I didn't think money was as
23:26
high up on the list. I mean, there's a lot of surveys
23:29
that have been done like the, the facts are very disputed, but
23:32
every survey that I read was basically between 25% and 50% of
23:38
people who are dating in both the UK and US would not date
23:42
someone based on finances. That's a pretty big like
23:46
proportion. Again, I don't have a specific
23:47
number. I can't be like this is a
23:49
concrete number, but it's it's quite a large consideration.
23:51
Right. Yeah, but I think a lot of
23:53
people cross that barrier of entry.
23:55
That's what I'm saying. I.
23:56
Like there's a minimum number. There's a minimum number, like a
23:58
lot of people wouldn't date a lot of people on finances, but
24:01
there's a, there's a, there's a minimum amount that I think a
24:04
lot of people cross, which makes it then not as much of a factor.
24:08
Yeah, yeah, I I agree. I agree.
24:10
I think there's, there's a lot outside of money.
24:12
It's not just money, It's not just about capitalism, but
24:15
there's this thing of capitalism constructing your reality that
24:18
it works on a more insidious level.
24:20
It's not just like, oh, I need him to earn 100K.
24:23
It's really actually constructing who you believe to
24:26
even be datable and whether you see yourself as a a datable
24:30
person and you're like pop the balloon funny show yeah.
24:34
We love some clips from from pop the balloon.
24:36
I love a clip from pop the balloon but what is that that's
24:40
a meat market demand them are standing there and the the
24:42
commodities. You know what I mean you pick
24:45
you don't pick you go and move to the next one.
24:47
I want this one OK speak say the right things come to the front.
24:51
I want you. I don't want you that's.
24:52
What I was sort of saying before, like modification, it's
24:54
changed the psychology, yeah, changed the psychology.
24:57
But I don't think it's changed whether you are relationship
25:00
material. I probably agree with you that
25:03
it's changed how you sort of determine what's relationship
25:06
material in the sense or how you approach that whole industry of
25:10
courting and dating. But I don't think it's actually
25:13
changed what matters to an individual about someone else.
25:16
Got you, got you again that that comes to my point.
25:19
I do think individuals, especially young people, they do
25:22
push back against the, the, the narrative of like the, the, the
25:26
capitalist narrative. I think people have individual
25:28
agency and people are like are awake to what's going on and
25:31
they can make their own individual choices in their
25:33
romantic life for sure. But yeah, I touched on Marx
25:35
earlier. I also want to touch on Marx's
25:37
theory of the alienation of labour When we go to work,
25:40
right, Especially if you go to work on corporate, you work on a
25:43
part of a job that is alienated from the final product.
25:48
So obviously Mark's talking about a factory.
25:50
A factory worker might produce a specific tyre for the entire
25:54
car, but he just works on a tyre.
25:56
He's a tyre specialist. He never sees the car and he
25:59
never sees the fruit of his labour in the grand context of
26:01
the car. So for him, he's just a cog in a
26:05
machine, right? And there's something about that
26:08
that I think bleeds into dating, right?
26:11
You're cogging machine in a machine all day at work.
26:14
When you come home and you go to date, there's some level of that
26:18
that you accept being a cog and being a commodity yourself when
26:21
it comes to the dating market, right?
26:23
You got to twerk at work as a commodity and show your value to
26:28
your employer. And I think that makes people
26:30
accept twerking on the dating market, right?
26:33
Do the pop the balloon sort of commodification of of dating.
26:36
And there's something about that that makes me feel like he's
26:40
poisoning the relationship. Like environment.
26:44
Do you know what I mean? So you think how?
26:47
How we? Work how we work bleeds into.
26:51
Dating like think about getting a job in 2020.
26:53
Yeah, I, I agree actually, because as you sat there and I,
26:57
I had this, this sort of this thought a few few months ago
27:01
around are you really successful or are you just validated by
27:06
capitalism? Like like really and truly
27:09
obviously your success. And then how you are seen and
27:12
probably how you even behave in your relationship.
27:14
Because the person, the worker that you're talking about is
27:18
maybe like a lower ranking worker in their, the industry.
27:21
But even at a higher level, you're you're considered
27:25
successful or desirable because of how you're treated by
27:29
capitalism, how you're validated by capitalism, and that bleeds
27:32
into your relationship. To 100%.
27:34
So I guess I agree with you in that in that too as well.
27:37
Yeah, Yeah. Like the status thing is like
27:39
you put up to a date within the 1st 5 minutes, you're talking
27:42
about your jobs and what you do and that person across the table
27:46
is going to see you in certain way based on exactly what you
27:48
said, how you are validating capitalism.
27:50
It's something we just can't get away from and and that's my
27:54
point about it constructing a reality and and constructing our
27:58
idea of what is like, what has value and what is virtuous.
28:03
You know what? I.
28:03
Mean yeah, OK, on to the next segment.
28:06
Segment 3. You want a child and you do the
28:14
maths. Childcare costs as much as one
28:17
salary. Staying home means financial
28:19
dependence and a stalled career. Working means someone else looks
28:24
after your child most of the day.
28:26
Do you keep working to stay afloat and outsource the care or
28:29
step back and absorb the financial hip and hope you
28:32
recover later? What do you do?
28:34
I can't lie, I don't think I'm having the kid under those
28:37
circumstances. I think there's just a minimum
28:40
amount of care, attention and finances that a kid needs, and
28:45
to roll the dice and gamble when the kid might bear the brunt of
28:51
that if it goes wrong, it's kind of unfair to the unborn kid.
28:56
That's how I feel about that, yeah.
28:57
I I think that's easy to say, but if I like really wanted a
29:00
child or something, I'd do it at 100%.
29:03
OK, let's. Dig.
29:03
Let's dig a bit deeper though. Why?
29:04
Why do you want the kid? Why do you?
29:06
Why might you? Say you want the child because
29:09
you're both getting a little bit older and you want to have a
29:12
certain amount of children, but you're getting a bit older, so
29:14
you have to kind of have it in that time period.
29:16
What what I'm getting at is that if you dig, dig, dig, a lot of
29:20
why you might want a kid is about yourself.
29:22
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, that was about me.
29:25
That was about the situation. Yeah.
29:26
So it's a bit. It's a bit like we really need
29:29
to try and like call out of ourselves to consider the kid
29:33
anyway, right? Because the normal reasons for
29:35
having a kid are are usually egotistical.
29:38
You really need to try to consider the unborn child.
29:42
So when you're thinking if you really want a kid, like where
29:45
are you considering the kid here, I would argue you're not
29:47
considering the kid enough. But I think they'll be all
29:49
right. I just, I just do, you know what
29:52
my problem is with these sort of things is child rearing has, is
29:57
never perfect. And the moment you try and make
30:00
it perfect, it's still not going to be perfect.
30:03
I've seen myself raised and I hate using personal examples,
30:09
but raised by people that made it work the perfect time
30:12
financially to have children. But I still love my parents.
30:15
I still love my brothers. I still love my family.
30:17
Do you get what I mean? Like, and I still feel like I'm
30:18
a well-rounded human being. Like get there.
30:22
And it's not perfect because it never is.
30:24
So if if you feel that that time you have to have the child, have
30:28
the child like and things will work itself out.
30:31
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a, that's a fairly compelling
30:33
argument. And it brings home for me as
30:35
well, like my parents, because I'm the first born at the time
30:40
it was financially tight. It was not easy for them, but
30:44
they did make it through. And obviously I would say this,
30:47
but I think they did a fairly good job.
30:49
You know what? I.
30:50
Mean you did all right, like by the way, like, yeah, you tough
30:53
right by the way, man. Yeah, I think.
30:58
I think I could be convinced. Did I change your mind a little
31:00
bit? Yeah.
31:00
You changed it. Yeah.
31:01
Yeah, we. Both might be suffering from a
31:03
bit of survivor's bias though, because there's a lot of parents
31:06
that had kids in that situation and it was bad.
31:10
The consequences aren't made, aren't often or no aren't often
31:14
aren't maybe the financial problems, it's maybe your
31:17
ability to actually raise the child.
31:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the soft skills.
31:23
It's the like issues of the heart.
31:26
Because obviously you have to bear in mind the child knows no
31:29
different other than what you've given it to them.
31:31
So if you're able to raise them in, you should.
31:35
You should be essentially able to raise a child in any
31:38
environment because you're imposing your culture and your
31:44
values upon them and they're learning these things.
31:46
So like if you're able to do it right they should be fine
31:49
regardless of the money because they know no different.
31:52
What, what considerations would would like stop you?
31:56
Like like what if we took finances out, for example,
32:01
unless they actually even say that you felt equipped on a
32:03
personal level to to raise a child, what external factors
32:07
might stop you from having a kid?
32:09
So that there's a lot of arguments out there.
32:12
Probably like being away a lot OK would impact me.
32:16
If you had a career that you couldn't change and like you
32:18
just had to be away six months a year.
32:20
Maybe it's different now because we didn't have FaceTime.
32:22
Do you know what I mean? Like even when you're FaceTime
32:24
and then they feel connected to you still in a certain way like
32:27
that you that we didn't have before to reference.
32:30
So fair. There's obviously a lot of
32:32
arguments to not have kids. There's a movement, antenatal
32:36
movement. There's like the refusal to have
32:38
kids because they believe that the climate that they are going
32:42
to pass on to their children, it's going to be so bad that
32:45
it's not morally right to bring a human life into that.
32:48
And if we think we're going to have climate collapse in the
32:50
next, say, 50 to 8 years, it's a very fairpoint.
32:54
Like by the time you've had your kid, it's like you are kind of
32:58
bringing them in into a ticking time bomb.
33:00
There's, there's that, and I think that's a fairly compelling
33:04
argument. That's a fair argument.
33:05
Yeah, and it's difficult to argue against when you really
33:08
deep it. Yeah, 100%.
33:10
Obviously there's the the speed of environmental decline is an
33:13
unknown, but I think I don't know if we've got 100 years left
33:17
at this rate. Yeah, I I really don't think we.
33:20
Do that's another episode. That's a whole another thing.
33:23
Thank you for joining us. See you next week.
33:25
See you soon.