Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E9 - dads raising kids

Transcript

REALLY JEWISH S1:E9 - dads raising kids · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Oliver Spike Joseph: So Yair, what does it mean to be a dad in 2026? Shalom, welcome back to Really Jewish This is feeling more Jewish by the day Welcome to our conversation about what it is to be really Jewish If you're back for another lesson If you're here for the first time, bruchim Ha'Ba'im this week It's Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph back to about what's really Jewish week we're talking about parenting Specifically being dads Yair Eldan: I'm a dad for the actually 26 years. My first child was born in November 2000. And my little one was born ⁓ 2021. So have real gap and six I'm a very, would I say? Oliver Spike Joseph: We are both of some young and some older children. And better a topic to talk about ⁓ on podcast, Really Jewish. This Really Jewish podcast is all about tackling big topics in the Jewish world and talking about them from a perspective of what is Jewish about them. And also specifically getting to a deepening place about how we personally reflect. Yair Eldan: experience that. But when I think about my fatherhood, I have to admit, the scene that comes to my mind is ⁓ actually coming into the apartment that I rented. Actually, it was an apartment of my family. The first apartment after the separation ⁓ of and first wife. And she... ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: matters. Yair welcome back. How are you? Yair Eldan: ⁓ And I we were relieved, you know, because of the separation. Everything was very, very sharp. But I remember my feeling, the chaotic feeling of going into the apartment and understanding that it's me. I, as a father, to make a home to my three kids when they're with me. We had a joint custody and Hey Oliver, I'm fine, thank you. know, Israel is in very uncertain situation, we are not ⁓ relaxed, I to admit I am enjoying the fact that there's stop in the war, even if it's temporary. I don't know, hopefully not. The first thing I actually thought about and actually it ⁓ was materialized, was my mom. I asked her to help me and ⁓ she was there for me. And in a way, I remember these months after the separation, ⁓ she me. And by showing me how to do it, in a way, by myself. And it makes me think about fatherhood and the between my fatherhood to the way my mom was with me when I was a child. ⁓ And she took care me and actually she stills in a way takes care of me and I'm 53. not the same, obviously. There was a shift in the balance, but still there is something about Jewish moms and mothers, you know, universally, but especially Jewish moms that is, ⁓ know, that is ⁓ about taking care of the child as a, you know, 100 % fully committed. And I it from my mom. But you know, but I would want to talk about also about my the change that happened to me. But I have to admit that the moment of crisis, it was my mom and her, the she did it that actually generated my fatherhood. How was ⁓ it? how was it ⁓ with Oliver? When did become a dad? Oliver Spike Joseph: So interesting. So I became a dad 20 years after you, 2019 and it was during COVID. So it was a wild thing. Our daughter born. I remember this very clearly. And it's become a 'shel minhag', say the Jewish tradition, a kind of a tradition which is now we keep. We ⁓ a simcha, like a family gathering. on the occasion of our kids being born. And we had probably maybe 100, maybe 120 just family and friends, but you know, there's lots of them, close family and friends. And we were crammed like elbow to elbow into our house for Simchat Bat for a celebration of arrival of first daughter And then I think like four days later, it was the first COVID lockdown in... in London. But for me, listen, that's an interesting to start parenting because it's, and in many ways ⁓ that has been our because it's a moment of such intensity, surrounded by friends and family, But the aspect of that insularity that COVID gave where we spent, you know, best part of a year, maybe even more just by ourselves is a little bit of how we then came to parent, I was working as rabbi in a big shul at the time, a big synagogue. And in a time when the world could really have encroached on our family life and on our raising kids, we got to spend a lot of time by ourselves. don't get me wrong, there's no rose tinting of this image. It was also very, very difficult and ⁓ were quite excruciating moments of being separated from a family, from close family. But we did learn to have real time Yair Eldan: Thank you. Thank Oliver Spike Joseph: like Friday night dinners by ourselves which we still keep Shabbatot, broadly in the cocoon of family life. now we live pretty sociable lives as parents to a degree, but there's always some of that space just for us and the kids, I can also speak about my own upbringing. of my overriding images of being One of my overriding images of with my mom and my dad was having special time. Special time was part of the family vocabulary where I'd go upstairs with my mom or my dad and we'd have kind of a story or maybe we'd just talk about the day But importantly, not dissimilar from your family now that we were a lot. were three kids. with my mom and my dad was having special time. Special time was just like part of the family vocabulary where I'd go upstairs with my mom or my dad and we'd have kind of a story or maybe we'd just talk about the day or whatever. But importantly, not dissimilar from your family now that we were a lot. were three kids. Growing up we also had two half sisters so there were kind of five of us all together and having that alone time with one parent another I think was important Growing up we also had two half sisters so there were kind of five of us all together and having that alone time with one parent another I think was really really important and both Natalie and I try and achieve that with our kids now I'm a dad of three now I we both see the importance of having some time how much the kids depend on that time where they just get to sit with one of us by ourselves. Yair Eldan: I totally identify. think one the challenges as me as a parent, it's not connected to my fatherhood as a parent, ⁓ is actually ⁓ make balance between with my kids ⁓ and being taking, ⁓ giving attention one of them, which is a necessity for a child to have a time alone with one of his parents. I think it's a very, very important thing, but also to have family time, which is also very, important the whole family. But I'm wondering, does your how do you function in the house? is it a Masorti, traditional functioning where you go to work ⁓ and ⁓ Natalie does the housekeeping ⁓ or obviously not as you laugh? Of course not, you know. For me, I'm a boomer, I'm a boomer, it's not true. Oliver Spike Joseph: It's I think this part of the reason why I wanted to why I wanted to talk about this topic because I think a part of the generation that we live in is that we there's no rules that even in the most frum (religious) households that I know of and we know, we have in in our lives in London, we have a real spectrum of very, like religious friends, like from traditional friends and very secular friends people not from the Jewish community. There's no rules. There's no rules about what each of those families do according to where they are on the religious spectrum or whatever. In the broad sense, I would say, men a lot more. My dad is, thank God, a father and think he was around for us a lot, but he came home at the end of a long day's work. and didn't get involved in the house so much from memory. I think he did stuff, but he wasn't the carer of the house, In the context of how I parent, we definitely have a split. There are things that I don't look after in the house. I'm terrible at getting the kids dressed. It's not like I can't get them dressed, but Natalie has an opinion on how the kids should be dressed. Okay, fine. So part of being in a relationship is also surrendering parts. You're like, okay, so that's the bit that you... care about and want to take care of. But like the great, I was moaning to you before about being very busy at work at the moment. It's a common thing I moan about when we're about finding balance. But one of the wonderful things about the work that I do right now is that at least four days a week, if not five days a week of working days, I'm able to be home at five o'clock or before either to prepare dinner or to eat dinner with my kids. I don't know many men or any people are able to achieve that that's a great blessing of of my work in particular I pick up and drop. You know, I ⁓ I'm ⁓ I think I'm the perfect parent but both in the confines of the work that I do I Had the possibility to be around and I also think in all of the families that I know at least in London There's there is just a natural expectation of more sharing in the house, particularly around parental responsibility, which I think is a good thing, but it makes the conversation very complicated, particularly about men's roles in the house, because there isn't really a for how men are supposed to parent. And maybe this is a good beginning of a conversation. Yair Eldan: Right. You know, I think, mean, just last night we sat on the terrace here in our Jerusalem flat and my wife told me about this Bedouin mother, woman, academic that is studying with her. She's studying to be an educational counselor and it's a master's degree here in Israel. This Bedouin, a very religious, she comes from a very religious and very traditional family, obviously, in Tel Sheva, near Be'er Sheva, and she in a very traditional way, covering her whole face, I mean, not ⁓ the but everything else. But at same time, she's a very feminist woman. She's a very strong woman. And I'm saying that because in a way what you said about there are no rules, it's not only that there are no rules in our world, it's also the connection with, in a traditional place like Israel, the Middle East, know, in actually traditional community, this environment that you live in, especially there, rules are even blur. I mean, It's very confusing because if you ask me about the connection between parenting and Jewishness, I would say that the challenges to a religious a religious family are even ⁓ mean, the challenges are even ⁓ Why? religion is traditional. Religion is patriarchal. Religion gives... gives men more credit. Why? Because religion is slower reacting to the changes of reality. I mean, in a place, just you're talking about COVID, there ⁓ researchers Israel COVID that came to the conclusion that women worked in the house during COVID far more than men, even in more egalitarian families. It's like they were, when you're stuck at home, ⁓ took more ⁓ themselves than in every day even. Interesting enough, so. So the challenges are even, it connects to what I felt when I was a kid that, you I grew up as ⁓ in family. My father never washed dishes until this day he washes only the dishes he actually ⁓ eats as a I mean, he does a thousand different, I don't have now, I don't have complaints about his fatherhood. I came to an age where you don't the parents anymore, but you understand them. But he was a good father, he gave me security, a lot of things. ⁓ I say that ⁓ I from my father. My father is a figure a father for me, with all the problems. that were occurring in our house when I was a kid, in every house for a person who grew up in the 70s and 80s last century. So I'm saying is, I'm sounding apologetic. my God. ⁓ Last century. Oliver Spike Joseph: last century us what's Jewish about parenting because I think you... Listen, I disagree with you on the subtext. don't think Judaism necessarily needs to be patriarchal to the ⁓ degree to you describe. But there is an argument in terms of... what continuity of religious life looks like without the patriarchy. There is a question. But take to a little bit of the text that you prepared because you were responsible for this week for bringing us a source or two and tell us what's really Jewish about parenting or in particular being a father. Yair Eldan: without being apologetic, you can say fairly, surely that we're talking about religions and texts. The ancient text reflects priority of men to women. I mean, in Judaism, we have the Mishnah Horayot (3:7) who says the precedes the women when there uncertainty with regard to which of them to rescue or to... Or to return a lost item. I mean there is a Clear-cut priority for men. Why I mean because men are more central to religious life there they are they are the center of Jewish they were were the center of Jewish life and and obviously it reflects on and then in the women obviously in that world were You know confined to the housework, taking care of the kids, taking care of the husband. And reflects in the fact this text that says that a woman is not, I mean, she ⁓ is supposed respect her parents as a man, she is supposed take care of the parents and do everything. But if she's married, she's relieved from it because she has to take care of her husband or a woman is not supposed to or she's not committed to do a 'Mizvah aseh sh'ha'zman Grama' positive time cost Oliver Spike Joseph: Time bound mitzvah, yeah. Yair Eldan: Yeah, so she's not supposed to do it and most of the commentary says that she's not supposed to do it in order to, know, give her time to take care of the house ⁓ maybe ⁓ some apologetic, you views say women are more spiritual than men so they don't need these mitzvahs, they don't need these laws. But for me, I mean, what it means, what comes out of all this is... is the fact that, you know, for Freud, yeah, women ⁓ are, know, the relationship between ⁓ the and the mother is the most important basic influential for the future of the kid. Yeah, there is some kind of, you know, he puts everything there on this relationship, the first years. would say in Jewish tradition, Oliver, and ⁓ wonder what you say about in Jewish tradition, actually, it gets amplified. ⁓ a burst of because women are, ⁓ you know, functions, know, talking the tradition, ⁓ not way it was evolving ⁓ you want it to evolve. The challenges in a Jewish family is even greater. You don't feel that way. Oliver Spike Joseph: What do you mean by even greater? What do mean the challenges are even greater? Yair Eldan: I mean, I would ask the question like this. Do you think that you being Jewish and raised in a Jewish family and raising Jewish family is actually making you the tasks, the feeling that are a good father, the between you and Natalie over the functions of you a father and her as a mother. is actually or is it harder or it affect you at all? Oliver Spike Joseph: because of Jewish life. Yair Eldan: Exactly, yeah. And the way you grew up, yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: Listen. I-I- I disagree with you because I live in a world that's very feminist and I also live in a world that's very Jewish, but it's complex. My family on Natalie's side are much more kind of traditional in supporting the male role in the household. when we sit down for festive meals, The tradition is always broken, but often in their family, certainly with their grandfather, the women would always the men at the table. I think it's ⁓ but exists and exists in a corner of certainly Jewish culture and ⁓ other as well. But the core aspect here is about context. The context you're describing of the rabbinic codes is a context where there was a clear patriarchy. And that was because, you know, for lots of reasons, because men were the primary bread earners, because men were the soldiers, because they defended the household strength and with their presence. perhaps ⁓ man rescued first ⁓ in context of Mishna Horayot that you said, Because of that, protective presence and of being the person who bought income to the home. But the question today is, contextual anthropological relevant to today? And you make argument in both directions, because I sit somewhere in the middle ultimately. But I think, I believe in male strength. think that's, know, in the, in the manosphere and in some of the more kind of extremist versions of it, there was a reclaiming of that space of men needing to have strength and men needing to have a strong role in the household. That's not my politics, but I also want one of our kids is a boy. I want him to have a sense of his own strength. He already does because he's a little kid who's got a lot of, a lot of strength Yair Eldan: Ahahaha Oliver Spike Joseph: hormones coursing through his body. We should have a sense of that strength and a sense of the responsibility that comes with that strength in part looking after the people around you. But there's a flip of that which is a real complexity. If we go to a more egalitarian home that we live in, for example, I want to wake up as a religious person, something that I've taken seriously in the last months of every single morning trying to tefillin on. trying to put, trying to say some prayers, trying to say the Shema and the Amidah, the core prayers of Jewish life. And like morning, there's loads of stuff that happened in household It's not an unusual morning, but it was a particularly busy morning. I didn't get time because there was too much stuff going on. So if you take responsibility as a man also for the, in an equal way, for waking up in the morning on a very simple level, then getting to synagogue, or just putting on tefillin for five or ten minutes becomes very, very complicated. And that's exactly the of mitzvah sh'ha'zman grama, this aspect of broadly understood halakhic Jewish legal consideration that a woman is not responsible for fulfilling a mitzvah that is affected by time, like saying the shema in the morning. becomes very complicated because there isn't a clear rule book. There's definitely people who have written about it, but there isn't a clear rule book in 2025 and clear traditions inside each and every family about how you might make aspects practice more egalitarian whilst equalizing the roles in the house. ⁓ It really complicated. But I'm in that experiment. I'm interested seeing kids hearing the Shema in the morning and seeing me put the filling on and I'm also interested in them seeing me feed them breakfast or like prepare dinner or lunch or whatever it is and having a role in the household which is also significant but it's complicated. Yair Eldan: It is, it is complicated. By the way, my morning was actually, maybe we had the same morning this morning because I woke up, my wife woke up late, took ⁓ of the kids, the to school, the meals for my wife was prepared by me this morning. So we have, think, ⁓ and obviously moment where you wake up and you don't have second to breathe. And reign of questions and requests comments from the kids around you, it just into your head. ⁓ But I to I disagree with you. I think the context is actually the opposite. You know, I live in a country which is very complicated and the one had women here do ⁓ everything and the here are... you know, it's in general strong and independent and everything. But on the other hand, we just had like press meeting of people who in ⁓ in tanks the army, who says it and religious people who says they won't serve in the army if they will have to serve with women in the tank, as if women is kind of a in with a woman is kind of a threat to their to their Consciousness to their as if as if women are a threat and and and and they don't understand I think I mean, that's what I'm saying. There is a deep connection between this and the roles and being a mother and a father a father because You know, I asked my wife about this Bedouin and I asked her, listen, can she walk with a dress that is actually being by men and be feminist? How could she actually be in both worlds? And she said, she actually addressed it and said, I don't want disconnect my traditional religious world. So I understand that there is sense of Me being, I dress like that, me being some kind of a threat to men and it actually objectifies me in a way. ⁓ at the same time, I don't want to disconnect from my traditional society, community, so I just walk between the lines and I to just manage. And I I agree that the rules blurred. but... There is a deep connection between Jewish religion and tradition ⁓ well, to fatherhood motherhood and their conceptions and actually in everyday life. see it all me. Oliver Spike Joseph: But what's the threat of the image of the tank? Why is that? Why do you present that as a threat or some kind of undermining of what I'm saying? Yair Eldan: because you're saying, listen, the I live in a feminist context and ⁓ I don't religion is so powerful in forming the roles in my house. What I'm saying is, tradition and religion do have an and everybody around me is actually... No, because you're saying, listen, context, I live in a feminist context and ⁓ I think religion is so powerful in forming the roles in my house. What I'm saying is, tradition and ⁓ do have effect and everybody around me is actually... is actually trying to make their path between what said, being a feminist, understanding that women and men are not different, they are different. I want to say something my fatherhood, but they're supposed to do equal roles in the family, but at the same time, people don't want to ⁓ disconnect from community, society. trying to make their path between what I said, a feminist, understanding that women and men are not different, they are different. They come to their parents, religious parents, and everything changes suddenly. So understand. ⁓ I ⁓ Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: I understand. mean, I think that the two images that you frame of your Bedouin colleague about treading fine line, think is specifically relevant that we are all treading a fine line. at least I feel like I certainly am. And the other thing that you said was about the tradition walk, slowly. Like there is something about between those two places, there's something about permitting the wisdom of the generations to also seep in. You know, I feel like an old man when I say I'm 43, you're 53, we, now everyone's out of their ages on this podcast. But I, one of my great frustrations of the next generation coming up is the total abandonment of tradition. Like what does Judaism represent? represents of holding a wisdom tradition and holding by it. Yair Eldan: Haha! Oliver Spike Joseph: And in order to change anything, you have to have a really well thought out stance, a really well thought out approach. So the well thought out approach in generation, at least in the community that I grew up in, is the role of women in synagogue. How can you ⁓ with good conscience a synagogue community where a woman never stands up and offers drasha. from the Torah never stands up and says what she thinks about Torah portion. For example, that feels really crucial, but that doesn't feel like a knee jerk reaction to something that we see in our current presence. That feels like a well thought out position. That feels out something which I across ⁓ many maybe not many generations, but certainly many decades of the modern era that women have as much academic capacity and in some cases more than me and have much capacity in the words of Torah and in many cases more than me. So it's important for me for the progression and development of Torah in itself to hear those voices. But the interesting part about parenting is how do you provide strong home where and women can share roles in ⁓ a thought out way and also permit for some of the tradition of the generations to seep in and have strong male presence in the house which is so crucial for the raising of our kids and also permit women to provide ⁓ of what we've described, ⁓ of that softer, more gentle, more nurturing, perhaps energy. that maybe is intrinsic to what it is to feminine energy to the home. But it's a complicated path. It's a fine path walking the aspects of the tradition and traditional life and ⁓ permitting of modernity and progress to seep in. here, ⁓ want take us also to a little bit like ⁓ we always and do, like the deepening. What does it mean for you today of being a dad? ⁓ Yair Eldan: Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: of continuing to nurture both children in their 20s and also younger kids. Tell me. Yair Eldan: I will in a minute. I just want to comment about I Won't let I won't let you I as a secular I mean you ⁓ talking about from a very religious perspective ⁓ a secular I have to admit I do find it Problematic This change for religion because the myths the myths themselves are Oliver Spike Joseph: You always have to have the last word. Yair Eldan: are very patriarchal and they do affect and you remember the comment of Paulus (Paul) about ⁓ fact that he understands from the fact that Genesis says that ⁓ was actually created from the rib of Adam. So has a very normative conclusion in a social conclusion it saying that ⁓ women ⁓ he infers the that women are secondary to men in every aspect of life and she has to a woman has to to be silent she has to you know commit herself so I'm saying it's much more complicated even I think than ⁓ the fact you said about my father ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, So you're quoting New Testament, you're quoting Paul, yes? So what does, tell the listener why talking about New Testament literature also speaks to Jewish life here as an academic. Yair Eldan: I did it! Right, right. I mean if was interested in the Old Testament and he read the Old Testament in a very specific way and what I said before is the rabbis did the same in a way. I ⁓ Paul, I brought Paul in order to say it's not only a religious thing to prioritize ⁓ over women. It's also embedded in the stories and the myth that religion actually offers us, know, the myth to understand the world around us. So, I mean, the challenge in a traditional environment as I live in is very, very big. Just yesterday, I mean, we're talking about just a few days ago, women who are talmidot hachamin g'dolot, these women who study Torah and... the high court in Israel actually ordered the rabbinate to them to the exams that actually says that they know the topic, the exams that the rabbinate is doing ⁓ for And what did is actually humiliate them, they let him wait, and when they actually wrote the exam, there was an and everything. I see it every day in Israel that there is a very big tension between what was in the past and the present and what we think will be in the future. On the one hand, said women here are very egalitarian, the environment is very egalitarian, very open. On the other hand, at the same time very traditional, very patriarchal. So it's not a very easy environment to be a father in, if we're talking about fatherhood, be an involved father, yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: But the... No, the context is reason why this is a cause celeb for the right-wing for parts of very religious Jewish life. the example that give is there's a Rabbinut exam, a rabbi exam, which is standardized exam across almost all rabbis in Israel, which is controlled by the Rabbinut, the rabbinical association that controls much of religious life in Israel. and the High Court has ruled that women should be able to these exams. And you're describing that they went to the exams and they were disrupted. the reason why the ultra-orthodox right is obsessing the role of women in Jewish life is because it is the frontier line of religious, the division orthodoxy and moderate orthodoxy. And good. You know, it's tremendously complicated in lots of frontiers inside Israel, but the focus is correct. And ⁓ I in a pluralist Judaism where the ultra-orthodox will be able to do their ultra-orthodox things and have their Jewish life protected. They need to... In my mind they need to serve the community in the way that everybody serves the community including the army which I know you would agree with. But the challenge is correct and ultimately I believe that Judaism can evolve. We could have a state of Israel and zoom to the rest of the Jewish world where I don't need you Yair ⁓ to go to an egalitarian shul where everybody can do everything. I don't need you to go to a shul where women can offer sermons or teach men and women. But I need you to respect kind of the rule of law and some kind of status quo where each person is allowed to do as they wish. And ultimately, I agree with you that in the tradition that You know, the second creation story, there are two creation stories if you read carefully. The second creation story says 'min ⁓ the woman comes from man's rib. But you can read, we have an intelligent tradition which can read that in lots of different ways. you read the story as has been done in tradition that women come secondary men. Yair Eldan: Sure. Oliver Spike Joseph: But you can also read it in a reflection of in the first story, 'du-partsuf' of we were two creatures that were separated one face that was divided into two. That is ⁓ the first creation story. And the second story is one which is complex. ⁓ about reliance, about that we in some way or other come from one another. There are ways to read the stories in more egalitarian ways. So ⁓ can be true in the Jewish tradition. Both can be true. So you can have a patriarchal tradition and we can rely on that for certain aspects of the tradition that we follow. And that has merit. At the same time, we can also have parts of the story which permit for this progress forward and if of one generation, two generations, we're still desiring of this more egalitarian spirit inside of our tradition, that means it's real. We don't need to rush forward to those parts. but having Reb Tamar Elad- Applebaum on the podcast last week makes sense. She's an incredibly wise and inspiring role model inside. Jewish community. I want her to be there alongside many other Torah teachers who are women. So if it makes sense, it makes sense, I'm not apologetic. I need for the Torah tradition to also be affected. It's not all, there's a two way street. We are affected by Torah and Torah is affected by us. That is the midrash of Yair Eldan: It's you are you already sound apologetic. You already sounded apologetic Oliver Spike Joseph: into relationship between the heavens and the earth. Yair Eldan: you are being even you're ⁓ to convert me, I feel. So, but just saying, I'm just saying, with you, ⁓ I'm saying as a secular, if I were religious, I would your path. I would try to reinterpret tradition, of course. By the way, I don't like rewriting the ⁓ stories. Oliver Spike Joseph: Preach, preach! Yair Eldan: Rewriting the myth. I don't like this path. I do like the, you know, reinterpretation of mystical stories and sometimes saying listen the myth the mythical story was created in a different environment. That's also okay. But what I'm trying to say to you Oliver is Listen in the last few years. I understood something very deep about Israel that I live in a very traditional place It's not only the right ultra-orthodox or the in Israel. It's not only we're talking about a huge amount of people who are actually traditional in a very deep way ⁓ with regard to the roles of women and men inside the house. Can I say something about fatherhood? Sure. Yeah, I'm sorry. We got to it eventually but I think something happened to me. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yes. Yair Eldan: in the last 10, 15 years. mean, I suddenly, I started to feel that the way I actually with the kids is original. There is something original about, it's not connected to my mom in a way. I my mom was... viewed as a relationship that is always trying to to deal with the separation that happened during the birth. mean, my mom can't really disconnect from her children. in a way, I understood when I got older that it's my job to say, listen, I have to individuate myself because she can't do it. She gave birth to me. So her whole life is actually, in a way, feel a way of trying to... to close the gap between us that was, you know, occurred in birth. What I'm saying with regard to my kids, I feel that it's a journey to meet them. I mean, we get closer and closer every day. We were, you know, they came into the world, separated from me. I'm a man, I didn't give birth to them. And we're getting closer. closer every day. In that sense, think if you're talking about what fatherhood for me is, it's kind of being a therapist. Because I think only with fatherhood you can actually be or transference. Transference with the relationship between father and kids. I mean the kids are coming home and they actually project treat me someone very meaningful in their lives ⁓ a way. As if I'm the therapist and I think that my position, the separation I have from them and the fact that I want to get closer allows me and can be a better transfer for them. Better to ⁓ take projections in a lighter way ⁓ than and mothers. in a way they have a different I think love trust is a very important thing at their side but if you're about transference I think that's my job when I think about to actually allow it to it do it Oliver Oliver Spike Joseph: So ⁓ new in the journey. I've been a dad just for just six years. No, I ⁓ relate to you say. I think Part of being a parent is permitting for my less good behavior. I think we say enough parents is the terminology in Here we talk about the to be the ⁓ good parent like, you know when I'm tired or sometimes I'm working in the evening after I do bedtime I'm not a good dad and ⁓ I it's important to acknowledge that The sweet moments are moments where I'm building a relationship, where I'm in the park with one of our kids, just the two of us, or we have like a cup of tea together or hot chocolate together, or go for a walk, just one and another. Like those moments of closeness are really crucial. But I also think we, one of the texts that you presented. We talk about in the tosefta. about like what are the skills that we teach? I'm not so down on ⁓ my kids kids to do violin and ballet and, you swimming and all these different things. But there is a responsibility for for also for teaching. And the way that I like to teach is by example. you know, the things that I'm able to do for them, I think is to teach Our kids some of the basics of Jewish life kiddush saying the prayer for wine on Friday night One of the first things that our kids always learned was waving their hands in front of the candles for bringing in Shabbat I a of what I give to our kids is in the garden that they learn how to plant stuff and how to grow seeds and These very small things but like in a conscious way these skills that we are transferring them. I think hold them Instead not just because I need them to know how to light candles or say the prayer for wine But for me, it's also about like what's behind these actions the the the aspect of them learning To be still for a bit and to create family time that's intimate and quiet Inside a house or whether it's you know, the example of growing stuff in the garden is also about quiet and stillness Yair Eldan: Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: and permitting, you know, to put something into the soil and for wait for a week or a month, or sometimes even six months for that to grow. These are important life skills about fostering patience, creativity and patience. So that's part of what I think being a dad is for me. I we should we need to start wrapping up. Share us final word, please. It's been a good conversation. Yair Eldan: It is. I think I feel what you said about learning by example is even wider for me as a father. I feel that even as the years go by, it's even more important anything. Just the kids watch you ⁓ every minute. understand your thoughts, the way you act, you feel, you know, little things like... I would never, would try in my heart to commit to promises, to actually ⁓ fulfill my to the kids. When I promise something, I mean it's a little thing, but you would never me ⁓ just saying something then backing from it if there's no good reason, right? So I mean learning by example, I think it's very big part my fatherhood as well. Thank you for that, yeah. ⁓ Oliver. Oliver Spike Joseph: No, I think the kids definitely watched me. There was a there's a moment like a couple of months ago where Our oldest Said to me daddy puts his hands in his trousers like this and she kind of did like she imitated it. She imitated it Where she put where she put my thumb ⁓ thumbs in her pocket and her four fingers Held the trousers and I was like, what are you? What are you talking about? I put my thumbs in my ⁓ I my thumbs in Yair Eldan: Wonderful. They're watching you! They're watching you! Oliver Spike Joseph: I put my thumbs in my trousers like okay, and then you know a week later a couple of days later I'm like sitting there with my two thumbs in my trousers pocket. I'm like I do Listen the is ⁓ as physical presence for me like we we know you know as we all do like lots of families that Sadly broken up in different ways and you know, forbid people pass away or when when relationships come to an end the the Yair Eldan: Hahaha! Oliver Spike Joseph: Continuity and presence and physical presence that dads offer are really crucial to families and In the ways that we can you know, and we're not in control of everything There's something about being present in a loving and a caring and a strong way which I think Above the above the clatter and our disagreement There's a a there's a crucial part about presence in the household that our kids definitely look to and listen to and It's been it's been an insightful conversation just in terms of in that respect Listen, we're gonna finish here. I'll finish with some some thank yous Thanks your ear for being here today. Thanks for those who are listening This is our really Jewish podcast. We're excited to be here and carry on this project with Yair Eldan: That's right. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: exploring a slightly new format with a guest every other week and me and Yair having a conversation about a topic which is really Jewish in the interim week. So join us next week where we welcome Rabbi Joel Levy from Bet Fuchsberg in Jerusalem, one of my teachers who's going to join us on the podcast looking forward to welcoming him. I'll take the opportunity to thank Oy Va Voy for our musical intro and outro. Listen to their single back to my roots. which is available on streaming platforms. They're a cool band to check in with. you want to support us on really Jewish, share this podcast friends or a clip that you've listened to on Instagram, TikTok or Facebook, ⁓ like and give us five stars on the podcast. ⁓ And are collecting and looking for our first Patreon supporters to support this podcast with a small monthly donation. If you are able, join us next week. on Thursday for a launch of our next episode of Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph.