Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #315 | The FAFO Tax: Why Cheap Paint Jobs Cost You Twice

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The Daily Dose #315 | The FAFO Tax: Why Cheap Paint Jobs Cost You Twice · The Good Builder Podcast

• Az (00:56) Well, good morning and welcome to the Good Builder Podcast. Today's episode's a really special one, actually, because I just mentioned to this lovely couple we're about to welcome to the studio that we haven't done this for a little while. We haven't had you know the the team together in this sort of sense that you know we're about to introduce you to and beside that one of the most fascinating things about these two or you know and their crew is that they have stopped thinking about you know their business as a as a subby crew as a painting crew and they've started to look at it very differently and it's pretty exciting and I think they're really raising the bar in the trades and we haven't sort of talked about the trades for a while and I just mentioned that to the My guests today are Brendan and Haley Kelly, the husband and wife team behind XP Finishes on the Gold Coast, which I'm going to shortly get down to. And they have been working together and in business for about two decades. So that says a lot when you talk about construction businesses not lasting around 10 years. From XPHQ, they have built a customer-facing design hub with an in-house colorist and paint texture specialist. Where clients, builders, interior designers, and architects can experience finishes firsthand. They've recently launched a sibling brand, Attilia. I hope I've got that right by XP Finishers. I have, awesome. And dedicated, which is dedicated to decorative architectural design-led work. They were named the Gold Coast Trade Business of the Year in 2025. But as they say themselves, they're only as good as their last job. And this is why we love And this is why I think they're raising the bar on top of that. We're going to get into XPHQ, the way they approach finishers, the way they approach their partnerships with builders and things out there. And it is an absolute pleasure to welcome Brendan and Haley Kelly to the pod. How are you guys? Brendan And Hayley (02:47) Fantastic. I'm good. Thanks for having us. Az (02:48) Yeah, lovely. No, no worries, no worries. Well, yeah, you're doing something pretty impressive down there on the Gold Coast. And we've got it we know a few builders down on the Gold Coast. So I'm gonna urge every single one of them first of all to go there. And I I think one of the other things in in the industry that I've noticed is, you know, having this type of facility, you know, providing that sort of support for the industry and for builders, I think is pretty fascinating because A lot of the builders, even when I was at GJ Gardner, we had a bunch of franchisees that were you know, quite successful and things like that. But a lot of them didn't have design studios and weren't able to demonstrate you know, what they're about to build. So first of all, I think thank you for the industry for building what you've built. But what I want to talk about first is actually you know, how did you get there? guys, like what's the story of XP finishes and and what have you grown into? Brendan And Hayley (03:36) Yeah, so I I like to call it I'm about to enter into my twenty-seventh year of type season of painting. So out of high school, jumped in 2000, done my apprenticeship. We've done the Henley Homes, we've done all the GJ Gardners. So what I learned from that was high pace, high energy, get in, get out. So I learned how to actually really just hone into a skill and move and get my job done. Az (03:44) Wow. Cheese. Brendan And Hayley (04:03) If I actually look back and said what was my work like back then, I think I'd be, you know, coming down on myself pretty hard because you you learn speed, but then the thing I've learned over time then is you get your speed and then you you start then bringing through the quality. And that's where I'm today. I've just built myself slowly over the last twenty-six years to this point. ⁓ Az (04:03) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Brendan And Hayley (04:25) And hands down, like that's the thing. Like we we are that end of the job, people walk in. You can tell a good how a house can be just from how the paint job is finished. You can either win or sell a house. It can look a house. So, you know. that's been my journey. It's and it's I still love it. From the day I step foot on site, the smell and everything, it's yeah, and that's the culture I bring in with my team too. So yeah, I love it. Az (04:36) yeah. Well That's phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. And 27 years doing it. And and when we talked before the pod, what I sort of got from you guys was the energy. Do you know what I mean? And after 27 years, I talked to a lot of builders. I love you builders out there, but some of them are pretty worn down and you guys are just keep going this way. You're building you know, your your studio, your design studio, all those things. After 27 years, you're going, okay, how do we keep improving? Brendan And Hayley (05:06) Mm-hmm. Az (05:15) And I think that's pretty phenomenal. what about what about you, Haley? What do what was what about your position in the business and how you've come up through the business? What do you do there at XP? Brendan And Hayley (05:15) Yeah. Well, I've been I've been the painter's wife, many years. ⁓ but I've got a design background and I also love working with people. and I saw that there was a missing there was a missing like slot in between the trade and the clients, the trade and the interior design and the the talk and the lingo and all of that. I know it all because I'm married to it. But Az (05:26) Yeah. Awesome. Cool. Okay. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (05:46) I when we decided to open up our HQ, it was because our house was just becoming HQ and we needed a space and I couldn't bring clients to our home. ⁓ so we decided to open this up and we're we're when we put our brains together we're pretty creative. the aesthetics and creative, he's the technical and we sort of bounce between, you know, could this work, Brendan? Az (05:52) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Brendan And Hayley (06:13) And he'll usually say no. And then I go, Why? But I reckon it could. And he'll go, No structure, right? Can't go into that room, can't do this. And then he'll play. And so that's sort of how it came about. And then I've got some lovely relationships with interior designers that I felt like I wanted to bring them over into our world because paint well when we started doing specialty finishes, that's when I actually started going, I'll jump on now, because it was more expensive. Az (06:16) Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (06:40) Exciting. and the Az (06:41) Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (06:42) pl it's not just putting white on a wall. It's just yeah. Az (06:45) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (06:45) And the plethora like we've only just scratched the surface with what we do with like lime wash and French wash and scows and yeah, there's so much. That's just the surface. There is so much more that we can offer. And so we felt like we couldn't do it via our website or just it has to be human to human and show that product of what we can do. And have that safe space for someone to come in and 'cause picking these things are are actually you problem with you're picking it at Az (06:52) Bob it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred percent. Brendan And Hayley (07:14) The start the job, we're not until right at the very end. So you want to know that people are comfortable and going, okay, we've made our decision, and the whole space is about that making people comfortable, bringing them in, showing them something. Hey, this doesn't work. And that's the knowledge on things is going, Hey, that's I love it. We can't actually do that in there. But what we can do is problem solve and go, I've got a different product which we can achieve, something very similar. And and that's why bringing it through is showing that because a lot of people go to Az (07:17) Yeah. Well Brendan And Hayley (07:42) The only real stop is a paint shop. And when you go to paint shops, there's not actually a room or a dedicated spot or a person there that can actually go, Hey, come over here and let's have a look at this. You get some little sample cards and that. Whereas with us, you come in and there's flat lays, there's boards everywhere. We can run next door into little my little Az (07:44) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Brendan And Hayley (08:03) hub there, my lab there and I can go, let me just play with something. So Yeah. There was a want, there was a need. It was sitting in here and in there for a while going, How do we do this? And then we just we just started then just let sometimes you let it sit and then it just naturally just presents itself we find and you just go, Okay, well let's go. Let's just throw all in and go. And it was one of those things the opportunity came up. We're in an area in bundle, like our neighbour is nest landscapers, so we're we're good mates with them and then we've got Az (08:05) Love it. Wow. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (08:32) A lot of other trades around us, but it's in a really nice area. So it's behind it's a factory, but it's behind lot of furniture stores up here too. So when people Yeah, so when people do that and I've introduced myself to all the furniture shops in bundle and they know we're here. And so how daunting it is to pick a colour and I can help with Az (08:40) Yeah. ⁓ perfect. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Brendan And Hayley (08:52) It really is. Yeah. And so I'll say to the clients, there is no stupid question 'cause I've already asked it. Like I've got a husband that I hey he won't judge, but he'll he'll say no, that can't can't be done until it's done. It's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Az (08:59) Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, but I I I love it in that the partnership I think works very well. One of the things actually we work a bit with James Hardy and I know this is off on a bit of a tangent, but you know what they're trying to do right now, and I think you have done just inherently in the partnership and relationship you guys have is they're trying to turn with their design forecast builder speak into customer speak. So they're trying to show designs in a in a customer way. And when customers talk to builders, they can talk to builders in a way that builders understand and builders can talk to them in a way that they understand. I think you guys bridge the gap just with that thing, you know, just with the relationship and and and being in in partnership and obviously a couple are married and all those sorts of things. And you've got that beautiful relationship that that really helps that. And I think the other thing is, I think you're in the perfect location. Brendan And Hayley (09:29) ⁓ Yeah, Yeah. Az (09:53) That is a great location for there is so much activity going on down there. to me, I know it's our first time we've met, and and let me know if I've got this wrong. I've been wrong many times on a podcast, so don't be scared about that. But if I feel like you work really well with the higher end customer and client, as one segment of the market that you can serve. And and there's a lot of that sort of stuff happening down there. We just actually reported on a Brendan And Hayley (10:13) Yeah. Az (10:18) I think it was an apartment that sold for 20 mil or 30 mil down there. So I'm sure a few of those customers and that should be knocking on your door. And we know the grayer guys and things like that. So hopefully they're tuning in and and that's the that's the type of clientele that you serve in that build of space. Is that sort of correct, guys? Yeah, I love it. Brendan And Hayley (10:24) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. totally, totally. A lot of that high We also do get and there is also the mumma mum and dads that are contacting us, those home buyers, and it's that feel that people don't want. They they want to actually come home. They're spending so much money in buying something or putting something. I'm finding now it's not as much of a build flip and move on now. People are buying now to hold on for a fair a fair amount of time and so they want a place to come home and it's not a house, it is a home. You got comfort. and that was Az (10:41) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (11:05) You know, a couple of years back we did a good mate of mine down at Palm Beach. ⁓ the the whole house, it was just creeping into the market. They were a bit, we don't know. ⁓ so soon as it was done, and they came in and they just go, you you know, as trade is we come home, we might have a good day, we might have a bad day. But it's invoking that moment when you walk in, you walk through that door, and it just leaves that there, and you just go, cool, I can just leave it there. And you're creeping lap. Az (11:09) Yeah. Yeah. Well that Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (11:33) and come in and so that's what we're trying to sell on like you can still do your paint house do all that it's still amazing you can do all that but just trying to give people that feeling of just chill and just calm as they come into their their palace their home whatever they want to call it so it's Az (11:36) Yeah. I love it. I love it. And we're seeing in the market that a lot more people are like again, sorry to talk about my GJ Gardner days, but I'm just talking about the evolution of that builder. Like when you have it when when we when we were when back in, you know, 2010, 2012, we were proudly project builders. Like we were talking about our project homes with plans and all that sort of thing. Nowadays they're talking about being a custom home builder. Brendan And Hayley (11:57) nice go for it. Az (12:13) And I think that resonates with exactly what you're doing and you've read the market right and I think you're doing a a great job there because everybody wants a little bit of personalization to their home. And the difference that it can make, and particularly paint, and what you guys can do with the home. I I checked out your website and a bit of your work. It's pretty bloody phenomenal. And I I I think I've got a TV that I need a bit of a wall around that I'm I'm I'm looking at. But I I'm just like it can really make that space feel special. Brendan And Hayley (12:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Az (12:41) I think is what you're saying. And I think that's what you need. You need to leave something behind. I've I've seen a few display homes that have done some some paint work very well. And you walk out of that as a client consumer who's probably doing a bit of research with the good builder, but you remember the homes as well. So for a builder, I think it's important for them to consider as well in their in their specification and design. Brendan And Hayley (12:41) Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Well it blows my mind that the the finishing trades are not looked into as important as they are because they're the finishing trade. It is what Brendan it will make or break. Yeah. ⁓ you know, we're seeing a lot which we do, but we've got I mean Brendan's more of a technique, we do spray and do all that. We do all of it. Az (13:05) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brendan And Hayley (13:22) But a lot of painters are coming through and spraying and not putting really enough on the wall. And even I can see it, you know, on these there's not a paint not enough paint on these heads. Like, you know. Yeah, you you try to compare apples for apples and we've done it in the last week. We've been dealing with a client that took us on and another painter. Az (13:28) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (13:41) And we don't we don't walk around and bag out other painters. I actually want to industry up like this. I want to bring the rate. I want to bring the quality up and all that. And it's it's it's not a it's not a put down on anyone, but when we walked from ours, because I'm very I'm always how can I make us better? How c I never feel like I always feel like have I done the best thing? Like I I was talking with my apprentice yesterday and I'm like, I don't know, is that wall do we it's fine, but I'm like, do I need to do another code? But when we Az (13:45) No. You can say I love it. Brendan And Hayley (14:10) I took them and walked them through this other house just to go, let's have a look and see where things are at. It's clear from the moment we walked in, we went, okay, this is not apples for apples here. So we produce some cheaper paint. Both jobs are priced exactly the same. And so that's the problem I'm finding at the moment is, you know, people are paying top dollar and they're getting a top dollar job. They're spray finishing everything, putting it on as thin as they can, missing sealer coats even. So Az (14:20) Well Mm. Brendan And Hayley (14:37) I told my guys after that, I gave a pat on the back and I see the look of that, I said, I'd rather walk away knowing that I've done the right job, knowing that ten years from now they're still gonna be holding the test of time, whereas that job in two years is gonna need the whole house completely repainted again. Az (14:38) Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I know you know you you like totally, we talk about this a lot on the Good Builder Podcast and and I am all for having these conversations. And you guys wouldn't be standing here unless you wanted to raise the bar. Like you put it when you when we were, you know, wanting to get you on the podcast. This is exactly what you're telling us. why do you think that is? Brendan or Haley. Brendan And Hayley (15:04) Yeah, because I think there's a lot of factors. I think the big one is time constraints. I think guys are coming in. Az (15:16) Okay. Brendan And Hayley (15:17) There's there's this much work, there's this many. And so the compromise is how can we do it quicker? And when what happens is then quick doesn't necessarily mean the quality's up here. I'm saying myself, my guys at the moment, I go, slow is good, good is is slow is good, good is great. and so basically what that means is take your time, get your prep orders right, get it all sorted, 'cause everything's in prep with painting and it Az (15:20) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (15:43) And every I've got four three brothers that are plumbers, and for them it's like to run that pipe to get it to where it needs to be, you gotta make sure the frame's there so the pipes are all glued in properly and all that. And with us, get that prep work done. The painting's the fun, easy part. And so even with us, we'll we'll pull the gun out, we'll do a spray coat, back roll their first coat, everything then is done by hand after. ⁓ and that's where I'm finding guys are just putting they're going quick and they're running Az (15:43) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well. Brendan And Hayley (16:11) And trying to just get the paint on as quick as they can. They're watering the paint down. And so the problem is then they're going quicker, they're using cheaper paint, potentially thinning it out, missing seal coats on ceilings. And I like to go back to my apprenticeship back in 2000. So the prices were cheap back then. I remember we used to run through. There was never ever a you just gave up on a seal coat on the ceiling. So it was always two coats. And the funny thing was. Az (16:20) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (16:36) That's what the builder actually spec'd too. And then I fast forward down the line years and my guys go, why's the paint peeling and mic never sealed? Why is it doing this? I've been there, I've seen it all, I've seen the industry go up and go down. And yeah, I think that's the reason why there's a lot of things. People are also trying to maximize their profit. So the quicker you can get in and change your margins, the more money they make. But it's like at the end of it, it's like why why is stuff like you can still work off that profit? Az (16:45) Yeah. No, I love it. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (17:05) that margin you've got and still do a crap. And then like say you're only as good as your last job. If you do a crap job, no one's bringing you back through. Yeah. Az (17:06) Mm. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. No, I love it. Thank you, Brendan, for being so open with it. I I I totally agree with you and and I was probably gonna add to a degree, but I think you've kind of you've gone through it but came out of it and you saw the other side. I think some of the pressure that the volume builder w builders put on trades and the you know, the thin margins that they have to work with. also can breed that level of I hate to say this word, I don't even know how to say it, but incompetency or whatever it is, or or you know not doing the job right, because you just sort of forced to. And and like you said you're a young you were a young fella and you're working with these volume builders and you saw it and you kind of look back and went, wait a minute, that's not how you do it. This is how you do it. And you forged your own path but I do find unfortunately that and it's sometimes Brendan And Hayley (17:42) Yeah. Yes. Az (17:57) I guess you can control what you control. So I can't say it's not their own fault, but I do see trades that are forced into that rhythm of working in that way. And it's just I that's why I love what you've done and wanted to highlight you here on The Good Builder, because you're going, No, we're not gonna play that game. We're gonna play this game and if you wanna work with us, this is how we work and we do a really good job and it is gonna last you for years and years to come or you can go get it done that way. Brendan And Hayley (18:06) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean we were only discussing last night, which again blew my mind. I was like, our client when when do we want to see our client again? And we're touching on it in it's like ten years. We get calls from clients' friends all the time. Az (18:23) Yeah. I'm real passionate about this. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (18:34) Or the phone call comes or bought another place. I need you to come and I can call you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I I've actually had so there was a person I painted their houses about 2008. And and so five years later they called me back to paint the outside. Then five years later they called me back to paint the inside again. And then only last year they called me back to paint the outside again. Cause they're just like Az (18:36) Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. That's the only time you see him. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (19:02) And I was looking at it going. Doesn't need anything, it still looks pretty good. But they're like, they the they're the type of people that got the money and they're like, Yeah, but you know, we're house proud. We love our house. So clean it down, give it another coat. And for me, the beauty of what I do, and this reflects back onto the mentor that put me on, put me through my apprenticeship. I worked with him for near on 10 years. He instilled in me the okay, we get in how to do volume builds, and then he got to the point where he went. Az (19:09) Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ well. Brendan And Hayley (19:31) Okay, I'm getting over doing this. We need to start stepping up. And so he took me, he he educated me on a lot of things, and that's where I impart a lot of my knowledge back onto my boys. But I go back last year to do this house again, just simple things like sycophlexing all the expansion joins, windows before we paint the house out, stops especially on two, three story big buildings. It just when you get down, because sometimes these jobs are 12 months on, you finally hand. Az (19:35) Yeah. Very cool. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Brendan And Hayley (19:59) The mind, you look up and go, there's not a crack in anything, everything's fine, everything's good. We go back last year and it was just a quick clean down and cut and roll for the whole place because everything's still rock hard, nothing's splitting, nothing's cracking. It's yeah, so it's testament to us to go, we're just coming back and doing a quick little paint job. Like it's the easy stuff's done, and that's where it comes down to prep work on everything. If you do it right, yeah, if you haven't got any use in the mind. Az (20:09) Yeah. No, that is so cool. And I I I know you wanna see your clients every now and again, but I love your philosophy on only seeing them if they wanna redo or or you know. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (20:31) If you've met Brendan you haven't been good friends with everyone. They go you we're gonna move you into the guest room by the end of this job, aren't you? Yeah. Az (20:38) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that service and that's a relationship and that's trust. And I think that is that's the most important thing. And no, thank you so much for explaining all that. I think it's it's so cool. I love your philosophy about how you're doing it. And as I said, it is something we're passionate about. You know, we are you know, we're we're the good builder, but we kind of look at we we've got to put a reality check on things too, and and we do. Brendan And Hayley (20:45) Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Az (21:04) you know, talk to our community around, you know, guys like, you know, we've got to raise our bar too, so our trades, and and it will they're our partners, they're our team. At least our team can do a better job. We can work better together and produce a better result. Otherwise we'll get nowhere. So ⁓ Brendan And Hayley (21:18) Yeah. Az (21:19) Yeah, love what you do. But one of the other things which I'm probably not so fair with and and know very well is you you talked about, you know, painting all the walls white and doing that volume sort of stuff. But you've got a colorist, you've got a texture specialist, which I think Haley is. Yeah. so what is like what is lime wash? Brendan And Hayley (21:29) Yeah. Az (21:40) French wash, like all that sort of stuff. Could you explain to me and to our community and to builders where you could kind of use that or even some customers listen to us? Like where does all that sort of fit into the picture? Okay, technical. Brendan And Hayley (21:51) Yeah. Technical? So technical, you can jump on the meat. So Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So How's is fantastic. She brings the people in, and she can talk to them about the textures they're wanting to use 'cause each product can a different texture, a different look, invoke a different feeling. It's funny you talk about painting with feelings and stuff like that, but it does work. Az (22:04) Okay. It does. Brendan And Hayley (22:12) But it does you know, you can Az (22:12) Mm. Brendan And Hayley (22:13) change it. You can easily go and just put a a a colour in a room and people just go, Wow. So ⁓ limewash is this massive thing coming through at the moment and part of what the XP Hub HQ is all about is bringing people in. So if they're going, I want to use it, I can bring in. I've I've walls in here that I've painted up, people can touch them, I can talk through it. So a natural product. does help filter your air your air throughout the day. Az (22:18) Yep. Okay. Mm. well. Brendan And Hayley (22:40) and night similar to like micro cement lime wash and all that sort of stuff where it's purifying the air it's actually taking in some of those little toxins and that filtering out the air Az (22:49) ⁓ wow. Brendan And Hayley (22:50) Yeah, so it can be great. Yeah, so it's it and like this is something that's been used for thousands, hundreds of years and all that sort of stuff. So it's it's been around a long time. Last of the test of time. So what I love about it, it's subtle movement. you can go from just your off whites, your creams, you can go into some crazy blacks. You pick a colour, we'll go down and colour match it, do our boards until we know that I can do with that. So Limosh, one of those love Az (23:13) wow. Brendan And Hayley (23:17) Lovely products, but we like to say it's looks first, and then what's the other one? practicality second. So if you've got a family of kids, let's that's where we then go, okay, let's have a bit of a talk and go right. This isn't probably the product for you because you're gonna have kids running, leaning on the walls. It is a it can be cleaned up, touched up to a degree. but if you've got kids like I'm I'm the youngest of five boys, family of five boys that are putting home Az (23:24) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (23:44) holes in walls all the time and stuff like that, you're basically re having to touch it up and then redo whole walls. So if you've got a hundred square meters of wall, it's it's not going to be a quick, easy, cheap fix. ⁓ I guess that's where I step in too is I'll vet the to make sure that this is the right fit for them. Az (23:45) Ha ha ha. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (24:03) Then we've got if if they love the aesthetic of it, but it's probably not practical for their home, we've got to plan a a negative, you know, not B, because they still will look pretty similar, but we've got other products that we can show the client to still have that aesthetic colour tone. So it's yeah. Yeah. That's why we started w why we w our brains were going, We need to have a a hub, a spaceful because we get and Az (24:08) Yeah. A space. Yeah, okay. Brendan And Hayley (24:29) The other thing that we're seeing is that a painter will go, Yeah, no, I can I can lime wash and they think it's just a different brush and you know, but we've had to rectify so many We get the phone call when something goes sour, like what it's happened and the thing with what I've been doing over the last five to ten years is I'll get a product, I'll push it to its breaking point so I know where it's at, 'cause you can a lot of guys get the paperwork, read the you know, the MDS and go, that's Az (24:40) ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (24:57) you do it. Az (24:58) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (24:58) I like to look at that and go, it's like a flat pack. It's like, is that gonna actually Az (25:01) That's how could do it. Brendan And Hayley (25:03) Yeah. So 'cause then 'cause like what we found, so just the problem we've had this week is down here we've had some cold and so two different jobs. ⁓ we've had some cold weather. So we've linewashed the a house this week and what we found is that you've got internal walls that are fine, but then you you've got one wall that's actual that outside, it's a core field block wall. It's actually handled the coldness of the night. And then when we've come and done it, we're going and sometimes these things Az (25:07) I love it. Yeah. Yep. Brendan And Hayley (25:33) Happen and you just go, why is that your problem solver? But what's happened is because it's so cold, it's actually reacted with the lime in the wall and gone, okay, so now it's gone and bloom, so it goes a lot more different to the rest of the room. So so it's one of those things where you pick up on and you've just got to then go, okay, what's the solution? Well, it's quick, easy fix. We've just got to get a bit more heat in the room, sand the wall down and do it again. So I've got a saying, I call it the FAFO. Az (25:45) Yeah. Well. Brendan And Hayley (25:59) fuck around and find out. And that is what Lime and I know my cli our clients will get it because if you've got a painter that hasn't done it before, they'll put it on. The client pays that FAFO tax. We've we've already tested the product. We don't know because it's a living org organ and I explained this to our clients. It's a living you know, Lyme is a living It constantly changes between the summits. And that's what I love about it. Yeah. But that Az (26:10) Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. really? Brendan And Hayley (26:26) So you get cooler climates and it'll bloom more, but then come the summer it'll then dry out a bit more and then it just keeps moving over the years. So that's the beauty of life. Az (26:33) ⁓ boy. I'm gonna have to get some sorry guys, I'm gonna have to get some images and we'll put that up under this podcast and some social posts. Like I I I I have seen a bit of your work. It's it's beautiful, but that's phenomenal. Brendan And Hayley (26:42) Yeah. So that's when I started jumping on. I was like, Brendan, I will I will come and work for you now. I think this is more fun. We even had a massive house that we've just finished up down on Mermaid Waters. And so what they did is they went down into a basement and then they went three stories above. Every story above was fantastic. But then once you got down into the basement, you're below the waterline. And and this is another one where I'm Az (26:49) No. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (27:08) Most guys we find they'll do it. It'll go wrong. They'll walk away, or they'll actually charge the client more money to actually fix their potential. So I I then sat there, I got in my scientist mode and I actually sat there and just went, right, what can we do? So and believe it or not, there is actually a full science with lime wash. It's got to be at a certain humidity and a certain temperature. So I went down there, got my humidity out my temperature. Az (27:18) Yeah, wow. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (27:36) And I basically worked out I had to chuck three fans in the room to draw all the moisture out that was sitting there, sand it all down, and then actually then instead of doing our usual technique, I had to go a different technique where it was this time it was like move, just get it on and just go as quick as you can because while the fans were sucking it all out, it was actually drying it quicker than I needed. So in the end, I worked out the solution to fix the problem. And now moving forward, I know, hey, we walk into that room again and have that. Az (27:43) Well. Wow. Brendan And Hayley (28:05) same situation. It's like, okay, I know what to do, and my team know what already knows what to do. So and they'll walk in on site and go, too cold, temperature's too high, humidity's here, we can't do it. We're actually going. Whereas a lot of other guys will just go, we're doing it regardless of what. And then they walk out and look because all they're looking at is get it done, get the money and move on. We're running a business, but at the same time we don't again, we don't want to get called back. Yeah. We want to be the painters that are like Az (28:20) And do it. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (28:34) Like no problem. Yeah, you know. They s they fixed an issue, they sorted it and they got it done. And then you walk away. And the beauty the beauty of what I love is close that door and then you say to the client, It's finished, do you want to come and have a look? And then you that's my buzz. That's my dopamine hit. See them go, I love it. And 'cause you're so nervous up to that point, you know, you've done a great job, but you're just like, I don't know if they're gonna love it. So you walk away and then you're like, Okay, cool. So Az (28:36) Solid. Wow. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (29:01) So yeah, save the love. The one of the other big ones which is coming through, you can't see it so much behind here. We tested it on block ball. So this is French boy. Az (29:02) Wow. Yeah. ⁓ wow. Brendan And Hayley (29:11) So this one's practicality first and look so you can clean this, touch it up, do whatever you want. So this will be one of those sort of moves where we'll push clients if they don't want to use the lime wash, we'll push them into this and you can use this anywhere. Inside that it's all internal, so you can go into a bathroom, you can go anywhere you want. Whereas lime wash is that thing you can't as soon as you put it into a bathroom, humidity and moisture actually get to it and can cause it to actually go wrong and Az (29:13) Yeah. Well. Brendan And Hayley (29:38) We're actually working on a job at the moment where we're coming in to fix up from a previous painter that said, Yeah, that's no problem. Put it in the bathroom. And so the client's just stressing because she's paid about $5,000, I think, up to this point just for to do it, and it was never meant to go in there. So so we're working with them to try and give them an alternate solution, which that's where it walks into we've had our rep down. We've bought her. Az (29:44) ⁓ wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (30:04) our HQ, we've walked her through all these different scenarios just to lock her in on what she wants and it's it's yeah it's pretty exciting. So we've actually out of that we've actually come up with we've melded two different Porter's paints products ⁓ to actually get the finish of what looks like lime lime wash but it's not but it's durable enough to actually put in a bathroom. Yeah. Az (30:13) Absolutely. Yeah. And a b what Brendan And Hayley (30:27) So yeah. So this is where the function That collab comes in because then I'll go with an idea and go, Hey, what do you think of this? I'll send it off to them with the samples I've done. They'll go and test it and sort it and then sometimes come back and go, They'll give me the feedback and then I I won't stop there. I'll actually keep going 'cause I'll go, This is an awesome idea of what we can do with this product, what can we do and where can we use it? And they'll go and suspect, do their tests and then come back and go, You're good, you're approved, warranty's sorted, there you go. Az (30:31) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (30:55) Yeah. So So the other thing is it's we've got a really good relationship with our reps. Like they're Az (30:56) Far at the Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (31:02) They're like family. One we do Pilates together. Another one we we're just I just have to be on the phone and they'll drop yeah, I've just no I've I've They call you back instantly, yeah. Witness it, they'll drop anything for us. We're the only tr Porters guild members on the Gold Coast. So it's an invitation only credit to Brendan and his team. ⁓ Porter's approached us to become So it's not it's not with the dualux accredited, it still is amazing to be in it. It's a paid one. Az (31:05) Ha ha ha. Yeah. wow. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (31:30) You've got to change your criteria, but the difference with the Porter's one is it's actually invite only. You've got to actually knowledge on the products, then they'll come out and look at the work that you're doing before they actually go, Okay, we're gonna give you the guild membership to come in and be part, put you on the website and all that. So, and if you don't they will actually come out and check your work from time to time, and if it's not keeping up with the standards, they'll boot you. So they did it last year around the country, they booted about 10. Az (31:30) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where? Wow. Far right. Wow. Brendan And Hayley (31:58) Which is phenomenal, which is where we want that. Yeah. Yeah. Like what you're saying, what you're getting excited about. That's what got me excited. They want the benchmark to be the benchmark. No shortcuts. It's like a builder gets certified on a job. And that's I actually, you know, you one of my funniest things is again, I've got brothers of the plumbers. Az (32:00) I love that. I have Sorry. Keep going, Haley. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Wow. ⁓ Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (32:23) certified to sign off on all the work they do. And I go, the fa funny fact is there's nothing like all they're gonna do is potentially flood a house. Like that's what I laugh about. And I go, but you've got electricians that run wires all through houses that if and I've seen it where plugs are just not even plugged in at the back and someone just needs to and they're gone. Things like that don't get certified. And it's like I think I just get there needs to be some sort of certification of everyone so that everyone's found accountable on all Az (32:31) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (32:51) Building 'cause like I'm seeing it too much at the moment. ⁓ from building where he doesn't care. And then as soon as he doesn't care, what it does is it ripples down to everyone. Everyone then wants to pump through and just get out of there. So it's yeah. So Az (32:55) Yeah. We're hearing about it. Yeah. And that's where to a degree I think the build of community and our industry needs to take a bit of accountability too. And what I was probably alluding to with the volume builders, like, you know, I I was just listening to your story then guys and and like what you do and and I also think the other thing builders need to do and and something that was raised in a previous podcast is respect trades more. Like be respectful of their craft and how they operate and be, you know, and and you're part of the team. I saw that, you know, when I was involved in a building business. And I think there needs to be more of that because I was just about to say, listening to what you guys do, you're a scientist, you know, you're a designer, you're a painter, tradesman and subby, you're a business owner. You wear about 50 different hats. ⁓ and solving these problems that like Brendan And Hayley (33:29) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Az (33:52) I know a little bit about construction. I never knew anything that you were talking about then, you know, all that sort of stuff. So how can you do a good job if you don't have the trust and good partnerships with people like you guys that that do these things that ⁓ make or break a house so much? Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (34:02) Yeah, yeah. It's like So what one of my big things at the moment and it it's old school. I'm all about you've got to bring in what's new coming in and like I look at kind of painting. I so I worked under my boss. The beauty of what it was his brother was a painter, but their dad was a painter. So I was like advanced as like the the third son or the the younger brother through them and a hat off to my brother that put me on the his mate that was a painter because I was looking for a job. So I got to look at multi generational painting. So his old man never saw a Az (34:14) Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Brendan And Hayley (34:37) Roller. He's old man never saw a spray. It was back in the day where it was the old lead paint, oil based, everything, no acrylic paint, and it was just massive big six-inch brushes, brushing everything. There was no rollers. So he's watched over the years as rollers are coming, spray guns are come in and all that. And I don't think there can be too much more technical advances in painting other than the product itself. ⁓ problem is as things are getting geared more to everyone's spray. Az (34:39) Yeah, why are you Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (35:05) and out but one of my big problems is is I'm coming to a to houses now where we like I was saying before we sycophlex windows and everything else I'm coming to at the moment we finish them and it's it's not the old school guys it's these new school guys coming through and they're all about the image and all these clean cut lines and that and what we leave is amazing but what I'm finding is they silicon in every single window not only excellently Az (35:13) Yeah yeah yeah. Mm. Brendan And Hayley (35:31) internally, all the cabinets. I get it in a bathroom, I get it where flooring meets skirting boards, but future-proofing a house for the next person that's going to buy that house in five to ten years, they're going to be up for if they go, we want a full repaint of the house. What now is it adds thousands to the job because you cannot paint over silicon. So you've got two options. Az (35:32) Yeah. Yeah. wow. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (35:53) Silicoplex over it or cut it out, patch it up and then redo it again. And it's never gonna look so this is the thing, like the people don't want to listen to the trades getting around and and say, Hey, that's not how it needs to be done. It needs to be done this way. And the problem is is then you get down the line you go, we got a big problem now. And so no one will pay that respect to their trades, especially and it's not all the younger guys coming through, but Az (35:58) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Try it. No. Brendan And Hayley (36:19) If you're between twenty and twenty five setting up a building company and coming through and going, I seem to know everything and I the guy that's do been doing it for ten years or fifteen or twenty years longer, pick his brain. Yeah. Listen. He's saying, hey, don't do this. This is how we do it. Mate, don't be stubborn and just go, awesome. Because what that's gonna do is you build that team of reliable trades around yourself. But if you don't, what you do is you punt them out and you're just a revolving door of just trades coming in because no one's gonna go near you. Az (36:31) Mm. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (36:48) That's the that's the big big problem that's moving through our industry at the moment on pharmaceuticals. Az (36:48) Yeah. Industry. Yeah, and and look, you know, you touched on something that is exactly the the reason why we started The Good Builder. It it was like when I when I looked at like this is gonna go a bit wild, but human history and storytelling through time, and I know we're in a different day and age now, we don't paint in caves anymore. But I'm like, how do we capture like all the good experience like Brendan Haley from XP Finishes, how do we capture your experience and and all the builders that are good builders and and have that somewhere? Because I think to your point, Brendan, I think that passing down of knowledge and things like that, ⁓ people are really scared of nowadays. I was talking to a lady who runs regional manager for the QBCC, and she was saying to me that when old builders come in that have had their license for 50 years, she begs them to hold on to it. Brendan And Hayley (37:27) Yeah. Yeah. Az (37:40) So that they can keep trying to teach to the younger Brendan And Hayley (37:40) Yes, yeah. Az (37:42) people Brendan And Hayley (37:42) Yes. Az (37:43) and she's like, where do we where does all that knowledge go? And and that was we're never gonna get everybody, but that's part of the reason why we're doing this. So like, you know, forever what you guys say here today and that which I think has all been absolutely brilliant. I think very worthy of this conversation, we'll live forever online and people will be able to go and reference it and go, wait a minute, Brendan said don't sycophlex that shit. I'm not gonna do it. Like and learn something. So I think it's yeah pretty cool. So I I totally agree. Totally agree. Brendan And Hayley (37:59) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Az (38:11) Yeah, it's Brendan And Hayley (38:12) And and it's just I say to my guys, there's never like big things that go wrong on a job, it's always little things. And all we need to do is it tweak it, and then you're like, Okay, there you go. We've stopped a bigger problem down the line. We've caught it now. Tweaked it. Okay. it's the problem down the line is if we get four weeks down the line and I'm still saying, Hey, we've spoken about this tiny little thing, why are we still doing it? Like Az (38:19) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (38:37) Yeah, 'cause I'm all about with my guys education, how can I support and all that. And so that's the thing. I not only look at what my guides and my team's like, I look around me and I I go, I because I've like again, I've been doing this long enough and I'm I'm a painter, but I learn from just watching everything going on around me. So I know I can I'm not the best, but I could go tile floor because I've watched tilers do it. ⁓ I build your wall, I've done before, but they're on a bit of Az (38:46) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (39:05) of a pistol like that, but you know, I know the understandings, I know the measurements, but like for me to look at it and go, which way is that and all that, but I'm not gonna build a house. Az (39:06) Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (39:14) But I do Az (39:14) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (39:15) and I listen and then I go, okay, so you learn from that sort of stuff too. So and 'cause gone is that day of like my grandparents' era where everyone knew how to from go to woe build a house. And y you would go help him build his and then he would come back and do this and it's it's kind of lost today 'cause everyone's just no coming off. It's like plasters subby out every single stage of their job now. Rarely is there a plaster that can sheet, set Az (39:26) Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (39:42) And seeing and and then play accountability. I've signed off. I'd I've done the whole job. I'm proud of it. So Az (39:48) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (39:49) And that and I'm finding that with actual painting too. You're seeing guys coming in winning the jobs and they're actually getting they're starting to break it down into cargo guys that'll just come in and prep and spray out, and then the next guys will come through and finish, and then guys will just do outsides and or they'll just go and sue win the job, subby it out. So you're not actually getting like Mr. XP himself, you're getting Joe over here or Billy Bumcrack, as we call him. He's coming through and doing it, and then the problem is then they do a bad job, they do Az (39:52) Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (40:17) a runner because you played him and then you're like okay I've just made a bad name for myself because I've done this so it's The FAFOTAX. The FAFOTAS. Az (40:17) Yeah. Look at that. Yeah. No faffo I love that. I love the FAFO tax. I reckon we're gonna write an article about that FAFO tax, Haley. I think that's the big the best call of twenty twenty six for the good builder. I I I I think it's gonna become a concept. Brendan And Hayley (40:30) We have paid our fair share of FAPO tax. Like that's that when things aren't easy all the time. Az (40:40) Wow. I've Do you know what? I reckon it needs a hashtag. Like hashtag FAFOTAX. It needs to be its own hashtag. It's that freaking good. No, I I love it. I and and you know the other you you've brought up a few good points here and let's get back to Brendan And Hayley (40:46) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Az (40:56) you know, what you guys do. But the thing is, yeah, we've heard the same too, Brendan and Haley. Like a lot of people are saying you look at chippies nowadays, there there's framing carpenters, you there's fix out carpenters, there's all these different ones, and they don't look across the entire job or or what they're meant to. Brendan And Hayley (41:07) Yeah. Az (41:12) Not meant to know. Well, yeah, actually what they're meant to know, so they don't understand it all. So you're not looking at you know, what, like you said, if you're working with the trades behind you, or even the next trade in your same category that's doing the finishing, you're not even looking at that. You're thinking about how to get this done as quick as possible, my little patch, get out of there and and off you go. I I totally agree with that. Brendan And Hayley (41:17) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Az (41:36) The other thing I wanted to talk about actually is and you touched on it a little bit issue, you've got really strong relationships, as you said, with Porters and Julux and all those sorts of things. So you're in the guild and and in their sort of exclusive groups, how else do you work with them? I I I love that they kind of go around and it's a bit like Survivor and you pass the torch on to the person that needs to leave, but how do you or you put the torch out actually, but how do you how how else do you work with them? Are you advising them on how to do stuff and collaborating in that way well on on stuff? I love it. Brendan And Hayley (42:08) So Hales had them, I'll let her talk about it, but the training day you just We had a training day well not a train like a a day yeah an information day and it was very impromptu and we had our HQ. So we had a building designer that's here on the Gold Coast that does so many homes. Yeah. And a lot of their homes that they're specing have got limewash and they Az (42:11) Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (42:30) they wanted to learn a little bit more. Another product had backfired, blah blah blah, like not having the there was no education about it. So as Brendan previously talked about, there is so much with linewash. It's not just a paint on a wall. So Az (42:41) ⁓ yeah. Brendan And Hayley (42:43) I was back and fro with our amazing rep Andrew, and then he was like, let's book Thursday in. So we booked Thursday in. We had the the building designers, interior designers in, and he just showcased them the possibilities of paint. Where walked away going, my god, my brain hurts. There is so many things. But to ⁓ to our designers, to our clients, our private clients, our builders, these can just be words, limewash, French words. Az (42:57) Wow. I love it. Brendan And Hayley (43:10) wash you know what is it they see how it's applied and so French wash is like this beautiful whim whimsy process of like hand painted base you're the technical but apply it by brush and then you use a Muslim rag just to go through and dab it off to get the effect on the wall and it's just creates movement and subtlety and so and it's like it's old world european and it's beautiful so what we're seeing is all all Andrew and Az (43:11) Yeah. Yeah. It's stunning. Mm. Brendan And Hayley (43:37) and I the rep had to do is just work out this and bring dis designers in and so now it's gonna be something you know once I didn't really put it on our socials but one of the designers tagged me in and I put it up and then I was getting messages from our designers going how where when can when can we book in? When can we come see rang Andrew and he's like I'll make the day work. Like he yeah so we've it's an education thing from our side so that they just that you see because what Australia generally is Az (43:42) Yeah. Well Love it. Mm. Brendan And Hayley (44:08) is where following on from what Europe and America are doing. And so when Limewash is coming in with all these new products, people are going, they just go, let's just spec it. And they don't actually understand the process. They don't understand what the product is, how all that. So that's going to be the most amazing thing for us here is good mates with the how I've been doing over the years with a couple of high-end architects here. And they've got their own in-house interior design crews. So it's just we're just going to probably Az (44:12) Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Brendan And Hayley (44:36) every fortnight to monthly just saying to Andrew, come down. We're going to put on lunch. And we just want like an hour and a half of your time and their time come in because you don't want to turn it into a massive day. Everyone's what like Haley said, they walked away just after an hour and a half going, I don't know what to do now. I'm just because now their brains are going, I want to rethink this and I now I've seen that product and I want to use this and I want to use that. So you know it's kind of like when micro cement come in, I want to say around COVID time Az (44:40) Well Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (45:05) Marcos and it's still massive. Az (45:07) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (45:07) But it's one thing and I used to complain when I saw all my mates, I know some of the top guys on the coast here, and I go, When's the little painter gonna get a crack at these specialty finishes? And so micro's huge, there's some amazing houses out there, but we've now brought not one product, we've probably brought ten products and now their minds are just going, wow. And so and and especially in a world where people are talking about Az (45:23) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (45:32) Interest rates going up, cost of living and all that. We've got a price point in there where we can actually, because I do find micro cements and all that are up here, we're a little bit lower than them. But what we can offer is more value at a high, you're still getting an amazing pristine high end. But say someone goes, I can only afford to do two walls in one area. Well, we can come in and go, Well, we can actually give you the whole room for that product for this product. And if you want to have a look at this. Az (45:35) Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. yeah. Brendan And Hayley (46:00) And so there's a little bit more wiggle room, or if their budget is just limited, we can go, Okay, well we can give you this and you're actually gonna save a little bit of money. So we and it's not to take work from all them. no. Yeah, there's much work out there, but it's just I think you need to open people's minds too. It's not just that. There is all these other options out there. But they don't know unless they know. Az (46:08) Well No, no, no. Okay. Yeah, hundred percent. Brendan And Hayley (46:23) And would Az (46:23) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (46:23) you ever go up to a painter, I mean you're you're in the building industry, you might, but l regular people would not go, Hey, tell me, what paints do you do? Like they just think it's on wall. But there are so many. Yeah. The the thing that people would go to go, wallpaper. And so that was the thing, it or do a feature colour. That that was really it. And so our our sort of thing is to just try and open everyone's minds to, hey, there's these. And then also just also show people. Az (46:26) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (46:49) If you're gonna get someone to do it, make sure they're they're they know first and for all the systems, how to do it. Get to do your board so that they can show you that they don't show, hey, I've got some previous work I've done, have a look at this. and so yeah, that's the whole hub's all about that. And I'm more than happy to come and talk to people because I just wanna see people paying the money, getting the right job, and just everyone's happy. So yeah. Shorty finishes. Az (46:57) Yeah. Yeah, not Brendan And Hayley (47:14) Aren't your race to the cheapest. If you've got someone doing it cheaper, they're missing a step and you're gonna end up with what are you sacrificing? So our prices are exactly where Porter's wants us to be, exactly where Julux wants us to be. We're not higher, we're not lower, we're quite competitive. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah. Az (47:20) Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, yeah, and and that's an important thing, you know. You you kind of pay for what you get as well, you know, and it's your home. I think that's the other thing that people have got to realise, builders have got to realise as well as I've been talking to, not you guys, but you know, it's a it's a and you guys work in that higher end product. It's a high end product compared to other products that we buy. Like do it properly, do it well, get people who will do it well. And I love that you're sort of focusing on this area and there's more than enough room with the the micro cements of the world. and and what you guys do. And I think your product looks phenomenal. I'm sure we're gonna see a lot more lime wash and French wash homes hanging around the coast and beyond wherever you Well actually sorry you go Haley. No you're on. Brendan And Hayley (48:14) sorry, choke, but I got one in into Pilates Reformer. I say it to all people because he's got he's doing ceilings and We're not rolling. We're now holding my you know for like hours on end going like this. And so your shoulders are now feeling the There's a body process. It's it's yeah. It's a small science. Az (48:19) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ After twenty seven years on on the tools and still, you know, putting your body on the line for a better solution. I I love that. I love that, Brendan. I think that it's a testament to who XP finishers are. Well, ⁓ a couple of more questions for you guys. I think one of the other things, and I said I'm gonna come down there, and I I really will. I think I'm even down the Gold Coast next week. So I won't spring that too much on you, but I will give you the dates if you don't mind, Haley and Brendan. what else have you got in that? Brendan And Hayley (48:45) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think. Az (49:01) HQ you got going on there. It seems like you've got a pretty cool culture. I hear there's some other little special things that you built out there. Brendan And Hayley (49:05) Yeah. So just Yeah. So we're all about you look after your employees, they'll look after you. ⁓ and it's it's it's you never wanna get as a business owner, you it's like that divide, you you wanna be part of the boys, but then you've gotta be here and still be the one to go, Hey, come on, hey, what are we doing? We've gotta pull people up and Az (49:12) Okay. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (49:26) but what we do is we get around the guys not only like their mental state but their physical state. We try to prov provide a safe, just easy come in. Like when you see it down here, we've got a lounge room set up, a big, massive dining table. So when we have meetings here, it's it's cozy, it's comfortable. But not only that, we're behind this wall here. I've got the whole gym set up there, we've got a nice bar, so the boys can come in, train. They've got the keys there, they can let themselves in and out whenever they want. So it's it's not Az (49:43) Yeah. Well Brendan And Hayley (49:54) But it's also the physical. So come in, do training. Hey, there's an ice bath. We've been trying for six months to chuck apprentice in there, but he's still like, No, no, I'm not going in. So it's just like, Coloman, get it off, let's go. We're getting in there. So it's and part of that it's like pushing like that's your mental strength to go, if I can jump in that bloody thing, I can take on anything. Yeah. So it's Az (49:56) Mm. Hmm. Wow. Brendan And Hayley (50:16) On jobs, and then you're like, someone rocks in with a bad attitude that day, and you go, I feel bad for you. I've just jumped in five degrees this morning, and that's the thing, and you're whinging about it's cold outside. Like, shut up and just get to work. Come on. So, but that's the community we have, and we're talking about this last night, and so I a couple weeks back, Hares and I were in this side in the HQ, just doing our little bit of work, and I had two of the guys on the other side just cleaning out the shed, you know, a typical Friday. Az (50:24) Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (50:45) Friday every fortnight we come back and we'll just do a clean of everything, wash all the gear out, st stock all the boxes up and go through what we got. Anyway, I all I could hear was just laughter. These two just hanging shit on each other, laughing, typical job site. And then I'd walk in there just to go grab something or whatnot, dead silence. And you're just like, okay, it's like you close the door and it's like laughter, everything's going on again, and then you just it felt like it was like a Az (50:57) Ha ha ha. Love it. Brendan And Hayley (51:12) Instagram meme where you just open the door and then it goes quiet again then you close it and it's like ⁓ ho you Is it me? Have I done something? He comes out to me and he goes, I want to go and play with the boys and then I you know what the funny thing is and that like they're all mateship right I said to Brendan it's funny 'cause you've got to pay your friends I've got to pay the my friends to be there. Pay you Yeah Az (51:16) Ha ha Yeah, yeah, yeah. To hang around. ⁓ I'm sure they would anyway, but no, that's so cool. Brendan And Hayley (51:39) But the awesome thing with that with these guys is there's days where I've got to deal with on site stuff where I'm not getting paid or there's just stuff that's just jobs aren't organized and and it can be stressful and all that sort of stuff. Az (51:52) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (51:53) They see it. They they they've got my back a hundred percent. So no, hey, just leave me be. Well we're gonna let's just go. Let's just do what he's taught us to do. And they've got my back. And a hundred percent of the time, like if they're just like, Hey, we're gonna go because this is not how Brendan wants this thing being done. So they just they they've got the confidence within themselves to go, Yeah, he doesn't like it this way. So they'll politely go up and say, Look, you haven't got your stuff organized, we're going. We're gonna let Brendan know and we'll be back when he says Az (51:57) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (52:22) We're coming back. So that's that's what I'm trying to build here. So that they're part of something I'm trying to grow. They see the vision, they see it, but it's it's just it's it's me, it's this, it's that's us two, but I want them to feel like you know they're they're part of it. And like we're joking the other day because I was signing one of my new guys this year. We found out so he's we'll put him on the Q leaf, and then we found out that I was working with previous never put him onto it because he's a key way he goes, you Az (52:25) Yeah. Yeah. Алави. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (52:50) get to get it and all that sort of stuff and so we're having that conversation and then we said, No, no, you get it. We're signing you up. And I said, It's going to be awesome because in ten years' time you get twelve weeks of just paid leave. And he goes, you pay me. And I went, No, no, that's through Q leave and all that. And we explained it to him. And then one of the boys went, that would suck that he just goes off for three months. And I said, No, no, no, you're looking at it the wrong way. I said, I'm going to be proud as fuck when he comes to me and goes, I've done ten years. Az (52:58) Well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (53:18) In six months floor and taking off for three months. I'm gonna go, go, go, go for the best time of your life. Mind you, you you're not gonna do three months 'cause you're gonna be most tradies take a week off and they go, I just can't wait to get back to work. But But that's the sort of Az (53:18) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. Yeah, yeah, what am I gonna do? Still up it. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (53:36) That's the sort of what we're building here. I want I wanna help boys. Hey, what's your goals? What's your visions? What do you wanna do? What do you did you know, where do you wanna see yourself in five years? Here, well, okay, we wanna get you more off the tours and bringing in these jobs so we can start doing what you're doing and running teams underneath you. So yeah. That's what it is. Az (53:38) I love it. Yeah. Love it. absolutely love it. I I as you guys are talking and and I think what I've loved about this whole podcast is I was gonna answer my own question, which I'm about to ask you next, which is what is what makes a good builder, but I was gonna talk about what makes a good trade and what I get from you guys. You think about things holistically, you're so passionate, and you just are constantly improving. I know that's only three very broad things, but the holistic way of we we haven't met many guests that ha have thought about things. In the holistic way that you guys have. You're thinking about the industry of construction and and how we can improve it. You think about the industry of painters and how we can do it and then how you can serve your clients better. And then you're thinking internally about how you serve your team better. And I think that really makes a good trade business and or just a good business in general. So it's been so cool talking to you guys. It's it's freaking phenomenal. Freaking phenomenal what you guys do. Like just, you know, it's it's cool when you just meet someone and you let them talk and you know, we don't know each other. Brendan And Hayley (54:41) So cool talking to you. Enjoy it. Thanks for having us always. Az (54:51) But they you know, I let people talk freely about how they operate. And ⁓ you pick up a lot of stuff and and you guys are truly in it for the betterment of like everything and and I freaking love it. But my last question for you guys and and you know we're called the good builder, is what do you think makes a good builder? Brendan And Hayley (54:56) Yeah. Yeah. Can they pay their bills? Az (55:13) Good well, hey, that's not a bad one, Haley. We had I talk about this a little bit. Peter Wood, who's who's it from Avid Property, like r you know, real big property developers, great builder, really respected in the industry. I asked him that question. He's a builder, and I was expecting something that was like, you know, mind-blowing. And he said to me, a profitable builder, one that makes money and can pay their bills. And I was like, Brendan And Hayley (55:34) Yeah. Yeah. Az (55:35) I it's right, because if you're profitable, you know your numbers, you've got a good reputation, you're making money, you pay your trades, you've got the relationship so you can get the job done. It's not a bad not a bad like sometimes life's basic, hey. Brendan And Hayley (55:36) Yeah. Yeah. Well usually can I just Yeah. Usually if the if you've got a profitable builder, we don't have to then say be a good communicator because they're gonna be a good communicator because they've got that that's part of that whole journey. And it's it's what I do find it it's and they're young and the new ones coming through, I work with all of them. It's the ones because we've got a younger guy now, his car would be mi early t early thirties. But Az (56:05) Okay. Brendan And Hayley (56:12) He's just one of the chillest builders I've worked for. It's like old on young shoulders. He's amazing. He's his attention to detail on the jobs there. He just pays when he says he's gonna pay. Thinks are ready when they're ready. It's amazing. But the big one is is they're not fluffing and doing all Az (56:16) Okay. Well Phenomenal. Brendan And Hayley (56:31) all the showy stuff. They're just doing their job. I don't know if you're just do their job on your podcast, but if you've got to get socials and all that sort of you've got to use it. But they'll put their pictures up and they'll take and do what they do. But if you're spending more time on that than you are on the build, it's hang on. That's where the dysfunction is. They're present on the job. This is always there. You might want to edit this one out. I don't know, but I just probably got to get it out of my system. ⁓ Az (56:37) No you Go, Hailey. Brendan And Hayley (56:55) You've got camera crews following you around and your Instagram is absolutely perfect but you can't pay your bills. Run. Yeah. Run. That perceptions become perfection. No. No. Az (57:01) Yeah. Well, I think no, I'm not gonna I'm actually if you don't mind, guys, I'm actually not gonna edit this out because and I'm happy to share my opinion, because not to a degree. I not I actually think you're right. I've ha I we know the industry v well, sorry, Haley, to cut you off, but like we know the industry really well. Brendan And Hayley (57:16) Yeah. Perceptions become perception. Yeah. Az (57:24) And we know a lot of particular builders that have outstanding Instagrams, outstanding. Like I'm looking at the Good Builder, and we're a kind of a media company, and I'm like, man, they look better than us. And this is what we do for a living. Anyway, as we dig deeper and we have a look at their work and things like that, number one, some of their work has been pretty bad, and we're getting the stories from finishing trades coming back and refinishing and fixing things up and not even finishing trades, just all trades. Brendan And Hayley (57:49) Yeah. Az (57:51) And then number two, we hear like we we get data in the numbers and we get to see what numbers they're doing and they're not doing good numbers either. Most of it's all for show and all this sort of stuff, but once the rubber hits the road, they actually can't perform the job. So it's i I I I think you're completely correct. there's some guys I know around here on the sunny coast that are just, you would have never heard of them. Brendan And Hayley (58:03) Yeah. Az (58:12) But they build like the best homes and they'll build them in 16 weeks for you. You know, and you'll never know of them, but you gotta find them. so I think to a degree, this is a very ⁓ interesting point. And I think it's something that people need to actually start thinking about in this day and age, because I've seen it on both ends of the perspective. I've seen trades do it too, a lot of trades. I'm like, when do you actually work? Because you're putting up a reel every 30 seconds. You know, what are you? Brendan And Hayley (58:13) Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, it's right. Yeah. Yes. So I'll say to Brent Can you give me some because we do it organically and I'll say, Brendan, can you give me some content? And he'll go, I'm working. Yeah. And I'm like, Yeah, but it's work too. And then I have to have a moment and go, actually doing this is putting paying the bills and doing that. So sometimes I'm like, I'll actually even say to our team, I'll go, Hey, if you're finished and you're proud of your work, send through some videos and whatnot the hard you'll forget, but then some of them will and they've taken photos and then all of a sudden they start showing. Az (58:42) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brendan And Hayley (59:06) And she's like, my god, send that but we're more focused on our client, our work because there's there's even funnily enough, there's trades on the Gold Coast here where I've spoken to people and they go, All the all the builder want is saying and is, Can you just get off your camera and just do your job? We want you to do your job. That's all we want. So and that's our big one is what was it? Perception is perfection at the moment. Az (59:08) Yeah. Get the job done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (59:33) You know, show that you're great, but on camera and your reviews and all that you're great. Hey, go have a chat to your trades and you'll and you'll get an actual feel of what the job site's like and if it's like, you've got a different painter. I saw you've got another painter or another this. It's like, Okay, you're churning through guys 'cause clearly there's a finance problem, Az (59:41) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (59:52) ⁓ on-site problems. So it's yeah, for me for me to answer that question before, what makes a good builder for me is their they're present on site and they're present for all trades to get their stuff. Az (59:52) Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it. Brendan And Hayley (1:00:06) Because if they're Az (1:00:06) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (1:00:06) present, don't and and also if you've got a site supervisor, if it's I can't get through to them and I'm trying to call you, pick up that phone because sometimes build owner to owner of a business of my painting company to the builder company, we can put in a one minute phone call because that's where the connection started at the start was I met you, we've built your company and my company together, now I hardly see ya. Let's get that back. Let's keep that Az (1:00:24) Yeah. Well Brendan And Hayley (1:00:35) I love communicating and I I sing all day on the job. But then you stick with my four brothers and I'm the quietest guy in the room. But when I'm on a job I'm in my happy space and I communicate with my clients and I just build that relationship, that's hands down bigger than any marketing tool you can use. Building a relationship with your client. 'Cause then they're just gonna go, only use him. Only use him. So Az (1:00:38) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, again, I agree. And I think the interesting thing for me, I think, is and and you see it sometimes, is the prevalence of social media is beneficial for some even if if they even if they spend a lot of time on it, but you put a bigger target on your back. And the the actual clients are getting very well researched. So You might have a great Instagram following, but there's a whole bunch of Facebook groups and things where there's a lot of chatter happening and that's where sort of the decisions get made. And I think that's where trust is made and broken amongst people who've experienced it. And I think you know, businesses like you will will come out of that unscarred. And I think that's pretty cool. But yeah, I I'm I'm sorry to ha ha harp on about that social media thing, Haley, because I think I'm as passionate about you about it, because I look around and I'm like, come on guys, there's you know and and Brendan And Hayley (1:01:28) So And we need it. We need it. It can't be a be on. Az (1:01:44) Brilliant. Some with me. Yeah. We need it. Brendan And Hayley (1:01:48) And had there's other Az (1:01:48) Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (1:01:49) benefits in a building trade and finishing trade. When you're trying to paint a bedroom and you're told you can't come in here because we're just shooting a scene, it's like When did days of our lives turn up, mate? Hang on, I'm trying to make money. Can I get down the stairs? You know, it's just like get out of the road. This is a job site, like not to be a pain, but then I'll start pulling. Hey, where's your Y card? Are you signed into the induction? Have you done this? Like 'cause I need to do my job because if that dude hurts himself, hey guess what? That's on you. So Az (1:01:56) Yeah. Yeah, that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brendan And Hayley (1:02:17) Yeah. Edit that out. Az (1:02:17) Yeah. ⁓ no, no, no, no. And and it well look, and and it's like this is the other thing. It's it's really serious business building a house and finishing a house. It's it's like a serious when would you have a camera person coming into a doctor surgeon while they're operating and come on, can can I get that angle? Can I get this? Can I get that? It's like, come on, guys. That's true. We've got to put the cameras away, be present. Brendan And Hayley (1:02:26) ⁓ Yeah. directly. Only when it's George Cleaney on ER, you know? Az (1:02:42) And do a better job. And and I love that. I love that. I know that wasn't the total vibe of your answer, but I love that little bit of a vibe of your answer. think again, you're the first ones that have raised a bunch of stuff, the holisticness of looking at a business, at looking at your team, and also the industry. I think we'd we'd love to have you back on, guys. But I'm gonna have to unfortunately cut it there. Brendan And Hayley (1:02:49) Yeah. Yeah. Any time. Az (1:03:03) We've run out time, but we're gonna put all the links below. I'm gonna grab some photos from Haley if that's cool with you of your of of your beautiful work, Brendan and Haley, and your design center. And we'll put all the stuff below this pod and links to their website. builders, high-end builders, any type of builders, clients who listen to us, get in touch with them. they're on the Gold Coast, go and check it out and you'll probably see me in a week or two down there shooting a few videos if that's okay. Yeah, it'd be super cool. Brendan And Hayley (1:03:09) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love that. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be great. Pop in. Az (1:03:30) All right. well thank you very much for your time and ⁓ y Brendan And Hayley (1:03:33) Thank you. Az (1:03:34) No, congrats on the success and and and really honestly, we need more trades like you guys in this business that are pushing the entire industry forward. And I I know I've I kind of go off on tangents and I say a bit, but I've got one last thing to say. And it's I love couples and people like you because you look at the industry and there's no other industry where people from within it actually improve it and are pushing the greater improvement for the entire industry and we're one that does it and there's only a select few that do. And you guys are one of and I think that's freaking like so cool. yeah. So it's been a pleasure. Brendan And Hayley (1:04:05) Thanks, Aaron. Thanks, Aaron.