Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Boy, 5, FOLDED DEAD IN A SUITCASE, Just ID'd

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Boy, 5, FOLDED DEAD IN A SUITCASE, Just ID'd · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. A tiny little boy folded over,
0:17
Speaker 1: folded up into a suitcase. Just let that sink in
0:25
Speaker 1: for a moment. It was a suitcase with the iconic
0:30
Speaker 1: sign on it, Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas. A tiny boy,
0:39
Speaker 1: A five year old boy folded up dead in a suitcase.
0:48
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
0:52
Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation. In series XM
0:55
Speaker 1: one eleven, A stunning twist in the case of the
0:59
Speaker 1: boy in a suitcase. Listen to our friends. Whas shocking
1:05
Speaker 1: story that's been developing since the weekend. New evidence released
1:08
Speaker 1: by Indiana State Police moments ago, and the discovery of
1:11
Speaker 1: a little boy's body in the woods in southern Indiana,
1:14
Speaker 1: the chilling reality that he may have been dumped there
1:17
Speaker 1: from somewhere else. This photo of a suitcase. Indiana State
1:20
Speaker 1: Police tell us the body of the little boy was
1:23
Speaker 1: found inside this suitcase, and for the first time, they
1:26
Speaker 1: have given a specific location, the seven thousand block of
1:28
Speaker 1: East Holder Road in Washington County, Indiana. The wooded area
1:32
Speaker 1: there that's southeast of Salem. Now the discovery was made
1:35
Speaker 1: by a person hunting for mushrooms over the weekend. Also
1:38
Speaker 1: new today, an autopsy was performed. Police have not released
1:42
Speaker 1: any results, nor they have released no possible cause of death,
1:45
Speaker 1: and they still do not know his identity. We do
1:48
Speaker 1: know the police say the boy isn't only five to
1:50
Speaker 1: eight years old. They add that he could have been
1:52
Speaker 1: from anywhere, not just southern Indiana. Investigators say they have
1:55
Speaker 1: been searching the wooded area where the boy was found,
1:57
Speaker 1: but the information has not led them to any answers,
2:00
Speaker 1: and that is how the mystery, the puzzle began. But
2:05
Speaker 1: I'm still overwhelmed by just the words. A little boy
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Speaker 1: folded up dead in a suitcase, a Vegas suitcase, found
2:15
Speaker 1: in Indiana. But they have no idea where this little
2:19
Speaker 1: boy was from. Take a listen to our friends at
2:22
Speaker 1: w d RB right now. Indiana State Police isn't giving
2:25
Speaker 1: too many details on this case, but investigators do believe
2:29
Speaker 1: that somebody out there knows something that can help them
2:32
Speaker 1: figure out who this child was. We are looking for
2:35
Speaker 1: the public's help and finding out the name of this child,
2:37
Speaker 1: this little boy who deserves answers. He deserves our help,
2:40
Speaker 1: Sergeant Carrie Holes said Saturday night. A mushroom hunter in
2:44
Speaker 1: the woods in rural Washington County discovered the body of
2:47
Speaker 1: a young boy. He noticed something and went to investigate,
2:50
Speaker 1: and that's what he found. So very disturbing, very shocking,
2:52
Speaker 1: very traumatic event, very sad event. The man who found
2:56
Speaker 1: this boy, Jeff Meridith, is in agony. He was one
3:00
Speaker 1: of the last people to see this child's face. When
3:04
Speaker 1: I first saw that little feller, immediately I felt that
3:09
Speaker 1: he was telling me, help me, I need help. It
3:15
Speaker 1: sounds like it's out of an Agatha Christie mystery. A
3:19
Speaker 1: mushroom hunter. How likely is that? Very unlikely? Finds a suitcase,
3:26
Speaker 1: opens a suitcase and finds a little boy dead inside.
3:31
Speaker 1: The first place to start is what was the cod
3:34
Speaker 1: cause of death? Listen to our friends WHS eleven, a
3:37
Speaker 1: boy found dead in southern Indiana, remains nameless. His story
3:41
Speaker 1: and the suitcase he was found in have gained national attention,
3:45
Speaker 1: hundreds of tips submitted, and still no answers except for one.
3:50
Speaker 1: We now know how the boy died. At this time,
3:53
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that leads an investigator to believe that
3:56
Speaker 1: he was alive when he went into the suitcase. Sergeant
3:59
Speaker 1: Carrie Hoole says investigators got the autopsy and toxicology reports.
4:03
Speaker 1: On May twentieth, seven days later, they share this unnamed
4:07
Speaker 1: boy died from an electrolyte imbalance, most likely due to gastroenteritis,
4:14
Speaker 1: which in common layman's term would be vomiting and diarrhea,
4:17
Speaker 1: and that resulted in dehydration fetal dehydration. And he says
4:21
Speaker 1: the toxicology report found nothing significant. So if a little
4:26
Speaker 1: boy dies of vomiting and diarrhea, nobody noticed that he
4:33
Speaker 1: was vomiting and had horrible diarrhea till he was being starved,
4:38
Speaker 1: there's nothing in him anymore. And he just died. Where
4:42
Speaker 1: was he? And I guarantee hit it and crawl into
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Speaker 1: a suitcase and die and closed that suitcase and maneuver
4:49
Speaker 1: it into the woods in Indiana. That didn't happen. So
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Speaker 1: we have a cod cause of death, but still no name.
4:55
Speaker 1: Well in the last hours, literally that little boy now
5:02
Speaker 1: has a name listened to our friends at the Indiana
5:06
Speaker 1: State Police. At this time, we can also identify, excuse me,
5:13
Speaker 1: identify the young man that was found in the suitcase.
5:15
Speaker 1: He was Cairo Amar Jordan. Cairo Amar Jordan was from Atlanta, Jordan, George,
5:22
Speaker 1: excuse me. He was five years old at the time
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Speaker 1: of his death, and Cairo would have turned six this
5:29
Speaker 1: past Monday. On October twenty fourth, again Kiro Amar Jordan.
5:33
Speaker 1: He was five from Atlanta, Georgia. A man hunting for
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Speaker 1: mushrooms made the discovery in Washington County, Indiana on April sixteenth,
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Speaker 1: but it wasn't until today that investigators identify the little
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Speaker 1: boy found inside as Cairo Jordan from Metro Atlanta. People
5:48
Speaker 1: who live in the Indiana community have waited since spring
5:51
Speaker 1: for answers. They named the child Angel, and strangers were
5:54
Speaker 1: overcome with emotion as they held this memorial service forty
5:57
Speaker 1: six days after his body was found. Now their local
6:00
Speaker 1: mystery has turned into a nationwide search to find the
6:03
Speaker 1: child's mother. You were just hearing our friends at WSB
6:06
Speaker 1: too as well with me an all star panel to
6:09
Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now, including Max
6:12
Speaker 1: Lewis from Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis. But first I
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Speaker 1: want to go to Detective Matt Busick joining us from
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Speaker 1: the Indiana State Police. Detective Busick, thank you for being
6:24
Speaker 1: with us. Yes, ma'am, thank you. Detective. Do you recall
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Speaker 1: when you first learned I mean, let me ask you
6:30
Speaker 1: something off point. Do you have children? How many as six?
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Speaker 1: Actually I'm guessing one of those is a little boy. Yes,
6:39
Speaker 1: I have three boys and three girls. Do you recall
6:41
Speaker 1: when you first learned, Detective Busick, that a five year
6:45
Speaker 1: old little boy weighed forty pounds was found folded up
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Speaker 1: dead in a Vegas suitcase. Yes, ma'am, how I do
6:56
Speaker 1: recall that? Tell me about it? Well, like I said,
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Speaker 1: I don't want to get into too much here, like
7:00
Speaker 1: I'm still run an investigation on trying to stand personally,
7:03
Speaker 1: I'm asking you when you first learned about it? Well, yes,
7:06
Speaker 1: it's very disturbing, Yes it is. I pictured my own
7:09
Speaker 1: children to doctor Thomas Plant joining me, Professor of Psychology
7:13
Speaker 1: and Religious Studies, and you'll see why he is so
7:17
Speaker 1: very critical in our discussion today. Adjunct Professor Psychiatry at
7:22
Speaker 1: Stanford University, Editor of Spirituality and Clinical Practice, author of
7:28
Speaker 1: Human Interaction with the Divine, Sacred Deceased, Doctor Plant, thank
7:33
Speaker 1: you so much for being with us, well, thank you
7:34
Speaker 1: for inviting me. Yes, sir, when I first heard about
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Speaker 1: a five year old boy folded over dead like an
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Speaker 1: old coat in a suitcase, abandoned no idea where he
7:46
Speaker 1: came from. And critically no one had reported him missing.
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Speaker 1: All I can think about were my children, John, David
7:53
Speaker 1: and Lucy at age five, and how defenseless they were.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Plant, does the nature of crimes like this ever
8:06
Speaker 1: keep you from a clear head? Well, of course, we're
8:10
Speaker 1: all emotional human beings, and we all have emotional reactions,
8:13
Speaker 1: and we all can probably relates as parents, like yourself,
8:18
Speaker 1: like myself, and like so many others, to what would
8:21
Speaker 1: it be like to discover our own child in such
8:25
Speaker 1: an awful, horrific condition, And so of course we always
8:31
Speaker 1: can relate, and yet we have to be objective and
8:35
Speaker 1: thoughtful and trying to do the best we can to
8:37
Speaker 1: understand the situation and act accordingly. Straight out to Max Lewis,
8:42
Speaker 1: joining US reporter with Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis. Max,
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Speaker 1: I'm sure you recall when this Vegas suitcase was first
8:49
Speaker 1: discovered in Indianapolis with obviously you don't know whether the
8:54
Speaker 1: child is from Vegas or Indianapolis or somewhere else. In
8:57
Speaker 1: the last hours we're learning it was Atlanta. U. Yeah,
9:00
Speaker 1: I mean it was. I remember when the story came
9:03
Speaker 1: in and you know, the police had put out the
9:06
Speaker 1: picture of this suitcase. It was shocking this kind of thing,
9:09
Speaker 1: doesn't you know. We don't see this kind of thing
9:11
Speaker 1: every day. We rarely see this. And yeah, there were
9:15
Speaker 1: so many questions that it's such a mystery. Where is
9:18
Speaker 1: this kid from? Why was he found out in the
9:20
Speaker 1: woods in rural southern Indiana. There were just so many
9:24
Speaker 1: questions for so long, and police really, from what we
9:27
Speaker 1: could tell, had nothing to go on. And luckily they
9:30
Speaker 1: were able to, you know, to find out some things
9:33
Speaker 1: and officially give this this little boy in the suitcase
9:36
Speaker 1: the name too. Jo Scott Morgan is joining US Professor
9:38
Speaker 1: Forensics Jacksonville State University, an author of Blood Beneath My
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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon, hosts of Bodybacks with Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what's the first thing detectives would do in
9:49
Speaker 1: a case like this? Well, you know, the way it's
9:52
Speaker 1: been presented is that the suitcase was essentially found in
9:56
Speaker 1: a really really isolated area, Nancy A. And if you will,
10:01
Speaker 1: and can you imagine walking out into a forested area
10:04
Speaker 1: for those that haven't seen this image of the suitcase,
10:07
Speaker 1: and it's it's typical Las Vegas, you know, the appearance
10:10
Speaker 1: of this thing. It's it's bright it's eye catching, and
10:14
Speaker 1: it's oddly positioned end this specific location, So you know,
10:19
Speaker 1: you have to ask the question, how did this item
10:22
Speaker 1: wind up in this very rural area and it's standing
10:26
Speaker 1: alone there? Just can you imagine just on this forested
10:29
Speaker 1: floor where this guy's looking for mushrooms? You'd secure the
10:32
Speaker 1: area first off and then document it as best as
10:35
Speaker 1: you can, because this is highly regular to find this.
10:38
Speaker 1: It's not like it's just discarded on the side of
10:41
Speaker 1: the road, down in a ditch or something. It's sitting
10:44
Speaker 1: out in a wooded area. So you think, I think
10:47
Speaker 1: probably that it is purposed to be there, That is
10:50
Speaker 1: that maybe somebody wanted this to be found. Well, I
10:54
Speaker 1: don't know if it took a mushroom hunter to find it.
10:56
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan I got pretty seriously anybody ever thought
10:59
Speaker 1: it would be found? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Steve Kramer,
11:16
Speaker 1: former FBI and federal prosecutor, President and Dago Solutions who
11:22
Speaker 1: led to the identification of the Golden State Killer. Steve A. Kramer,
11:26
Speaker 1: how do you go about how did they identify the
11:29
Speaker 1: body as Little Tyro In this particular case, I think
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Speaker 1: it was a combination of single prints that were on
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Speaker 1: the suitcase. I think that was the meaning. I'm I'm
11:40
Speaker 1: not sure if they actually use DNA on this or not.
11:43
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right, Steve Kramer,
11:47
Speaker 1: Steve joining us from Indago Solutions. Guys, take listen to
11:50
Speaker 1: our friends at WSB. Thirty seven year old jan Anderson
11:54
Speaker 1: is now charged with murder as that no crime scene
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Speaker 1: evidence technologies were spared in this case. According to court documents,
12:02
Speaker 1: police identified Anderson through fingerprints on trash bags used to
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Speaker 1: wrap the child's body, and autopsy report shows Jordan did
12:09
Speaker 1: not suffer any signs of physical trauma. The autopsy listed
12:13
Speaker 1: the cause of death as electro light and balance that
12:16
Speaker 1: caused a viral gastronitis. Yeah, and that is dehydration of
12:20
Speaker 1: Police believe after dumping that body that Anderson went to
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Speaker 1: California with a woman named don Coleman. Investigators were able
12:27
Speaker 1: to rest Coleman in San Francisco, but they have yet
12:30
Speaker 1: to track down Anderson. They are still looking for her.
12:33
Speaker 1: So Mommy's fingerprints, Steve crame where you called it, were
12:37
Speaker 1: all over that trash bag, so I guess. Then Steve
12:42
Speaker 1: Creme where they find mommy. And then they can deduce
12:46
Speaker 1: that it's baby Chiro. Was that your thinking, Steve, Yeah, correct,
12:50
Speaker 1: that's I think the logical deducement. Once they did some
12:54
Speaker 1: additional background information on Anderson, I think it was clear
12:59
Speaker 1: that she was traveling apparently all over the country with
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Speaker 1: her child and with her friend Don Coleman, whose fingerprints
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Speaker 1: also I understand we're found on the suitcase. Oh okay,
13:10
Speaker 1: right there, Wait a minute, so Max Lewis joining us
13:14
Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Fox fifty nine. We know that mommy
13:19
Speaker 1: and her friend, her running buddy, left fingerprints all over
13:28
Speaker 1: the trash bag. But I mean think about that image,
13:32
Speaker 1: putting the child in a trash bag and in a
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Speaker 1: suitcase and leaving it. Max Lewis, I want you to
13:42
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends w LKY and THHR.
13:47
Speaker 1: On April fourteenth, investigators say cell phone towers and a
13:50
Speaker 1: home security camera pleased Anderson and Coleman in Pecan, Indiana,
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Speaker 1: near the wooded area where Jordan's body was found. This
13:58
Speaker 1: whole case is all about justice for Cairo. That's the
14:02
Speaker 1: only thing this case has ever been about. Investigators found
14:05
Speaker 1: a fingerprint on a trash bag in the suitcase with
14:07
Speaker 1: the boy's body. In June, the fingerprint match was made
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Speaker 1: to thirty seven year old to one Ander Center. Another
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Speaker 1: fingerprint from the trash bag in the suitcase matched forty
14:17
Speaker 1: year old Don Coleman. The cell phones of both women
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Speaker 1: placed them in the area of Peak in April fourteenth,
14:23
Speaker 1: two days before the suitcase was found. Coleman's social media
14:27
Speaker 1: accounts include photos and videos of her with a Las
14:30
Speaker 1: Vegas suitcase straight out to Max Lewis, So what role
14:34
Speaker 1: did cell phone pings play and the identification of the
14:41
Speaker 1: mother as a suspect, It played a huge role the police.
14:45
Speaker 1: You know, they were both in the Metro Louisville area
14:48
Speaker 1: for quite a while, and so once they sort of
14:52
Speaker 1: you know, got their fingerprints, made the connection to them,
14:55
Speaker 1: they started piecing all of this stuff together. They had,
14:58
Speaker 1: as you've heard, been Chris crossing the country together. Once
15:02
Speaker 1: they got into Louisville, they you know, kinged there which
15:05
Speaker 1: is close to where this suitcase was found in the
15:08
Speaker 1: wooded areas, not too far outside Metro Louisville, and they
15:12
Speaker 1: used those cell phone powers and were able to show
15:14
Speaker 1: that they were in the exact vicinity where that suitcase
15:18
Speaker 1: was found. Obviously, no coincidence there, And I bet anything,
15:22
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, that the two cell phones
15:25
Speaker 1: were traveling together, the Devil and the Devil's Minion. Hey,
15:31
Speaker 1: you know what it reminds me of, Joe Scott Morgan.
15:34
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the case. You may wonder why
15:36
Speaker 1: at first Vanessa gim the beautiful young military females, she
15:44
Speaker 1: was murdered by another guy in the military, her superior
15:49
Speaker 1: as I would call Aaron Robinson. She was murdered, dismembered, burned,
15:56
Speaker 1: and buried. It basically shallow gray. And they tried to
16:00
Speaker 1: put cement on top of her. And when I say they,
16:03
Speaker 1: here's my point. Do you recall the name Cecily Aguilar, Yes,
16:09
Speaker 1: Robinson's married girlfriend. Can you imagine the two of them
16:14
Speaker 1: would that fire trying to burn Vanessa's body and it
16:19
Speaker 1: went so high up the fire actually burned the leaves
16:23
Speaker 1: in the trees above where they were trying to burn her. Again,
16:28
Speaker 1: it's like which is dancing around the caldron? Yeah, how
16:31
Speaker 1: do you get two people to enter into an agreement
16:34
Speaker 1: where they're going to do this to this baby like this?
16:37
Speaker 1: And Nancy, I don't want to gloss over this whole
16:40
Speaker 1: gastro into ridous thing. Thank you. I don't either go ahead,
16:44
Speaker 1: as horrible as it sounds, it would have been more
16:48
Speaker 1: more merciful if that even exists in this context, to
16:52
Speaker 1: put this baby out of his misery. Gastro enter is
16:55
Speaker 1: essentially what he had with stomach flu and we can
16:56
Speaker 1: all identify with that, but it was untreated. Nancy. You
17:00
Speaker 1: remember when our babies were little and we'd go out
17:02
Speaker 1: and get them pedia light perhaps or make the pedia
17:04
Speaker 1: light popsicles because they've got a tummy problem. And his
17:08
Speaker 1: bowel was so inflamed, and that's what they found at autopsy.
17:12
Speaker 1: That was what was evidence there. His bowel was so
17:15
Speaker 1: inflamed that it led to his death and he would
17:17
Speaker 1: have been vomiting. Plus he would have had severe stomach
17:20
Speaker 1: cramps where he would be doubled over. And probably the
17:24
Speaker 1: worst of this is that he would have had like
17:27
Speaker 1: explosive bowel movements as well explosive diarrhea essentially, and he
17:32
Speaker 1: was going on. This is the horror. He's going untreated.
17:35
Speaker 1: They couldn't even give this baby electrolytes, which you can
17:38
Speaker 1: find in any number of things like pedia light, or
17:41
Speaker 1: take him to the dock in a box, no offense,
17:44
Speaker 1: all u mds. They hate being called that. Yeah, it
17:46
Speaker 1: would have been It would have been that simple. They
17:48
Speaker 1: could have just hung an ivy on this baby and
17:50
Speaker 1: he would have potentially survived. But they stood by, sat by,
17:55
Speaker 1: the two of these women and let him suffer like that.
18:00
Speaker 1: Just think about your intestines swollen, red, hurting. Why do
18:06
Speaker 1: you get that, J Scott, It's as a result of
18:09
Speaker 1: this absence of electrolytes. Now, I mean, how do you
18:12
Speaker 1: get the diarrhea and the uncontrolled vomiting to start with?
18:15
Speaker 1: Where does that come from? Well, this is as a
18:18
Speaker 1: result of the viral gastroentorritus. And they're saying viral. So
18:23
Speaker 1: he literally had some type of virus in his body, Okay,
18:27
Speaker 1: like a norovirus or one of these things that floats
18:30
Speaker 1: around that leads to a viral infection and many times
18:33
Speaker 1: it'll set in in your gut like this. And so
18:36
Speaker 1: as you're losing all of these fluids, he's becoming dehydrated, Nancy.
18:40
Speaker 1: So he's losing these little electrolytes, and there's a variety
18:44
Speaker 1: of them. You've got sodium and chloride and potassium, but
18:46
Speaker 1: basically they're kind of the guardrails that keep our heart functioning,
18:50
Speaker 1: our brain functioning. It keeps us You know, he could
18:53
Speaker 1: have had a seizure. Well, Joe Scott, sorry to interrupt you,
18:56
Speaker 1: but according to mommy, you're perfectly wrong. Oh really, because
19:02
Speaker 1: she believes it had nothing to do with the virus
19:05
Speaker 1: and it had everything to do with the devil. Take
19:10
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut thirty three wt r n S.
19:15
Speaker 1: Social media post from both women then indicate they thought
19:19
Speaker 1: the boy was demon possessed. Eight days before the body
19:22
Speaker 1: was discovered, Coleman posted, nothing is what it seems and
19:26
Speaker 1: we are catering to evil beings and children avatars that
19:30
Speaker 1: aren't even children, and five days before the body was discovered,
19:34
Speaker 1: Anderson posted, I have survived the death attacks from my
19:37
Speaker 1: five year old throughout the five years he has been alive.
19:40
Speaker 1: I've been able to weaken his powers through our blood.
19:43
Speaker 1: The probable cause affidavit shows Anderson sent Facebook messages claiming
19:48
Speaker 1: her son was a demon who tried to harm her.
19:50
Speaker 1: She wrote to an Indiana pastor saying she believed he
19:53
Speaker 1: was actually a hundred years old and she used blood
19:56
Speaker 1: for some kind of exorcism. In reality, he a defenseless
20:01
Speaker 1: five year old boy. Do I have to say the
20:03
Speaker 1: words Laurie Valoe, cult mom? Laurie Valoe and her what
20:09
Speaker 1: was he? Jackie? Her fourth or fifth husband? Chad daybel
20:15
Speaker 1: His wife mysteriously died in her sleep. She was as
20:18
Speaker 1: healthy as a horse, and she just ran a marathon
20:22
Speaker 1: and then she dies in her sleep. They killed her.
20:26
Speaker 1: I don't know how they did it, but they did it.
20:29
Speaker 1: It's a crutch using some completely opposite religion of what
20:38
Speaker 1: Christ intended. Not that I'm an expert, but I'm pretty
20:44
Speaker 1: sure this is not what he had in mind. Calling
20:47
Speaker 1: your five year old child the devil and demanding an
20:51
Speaker 1: exorcism with us. Doctor Thomas Plant you heard him earlier,
20:57
Speaker 1: Professor Psychology and Religious Studies, but a professor Psychiatry and
21:01
Speaker 1: Behavioral Science, is at Stanford and the editor of Spirituality
21:05
Speaker 1: and Clinical Practice, author of Human Interaction with the Divine,
21:10
Speaker 1: the Sacred, and the Deceased. Psychological Scientific and Theological Perspectives.
21:17
Speaker 1: Doctor Plant, what do you make of this? Well, you know,
21:21
Speaker 1: I think the bottom line is, you know, psychopathology can
21:25
Speaker 1: be a really terrible and brutal thing, and you can't
21:29
Speaker 1: diagnose someone from afar but what it sounds like is
21:33
Speaker 1: that this as what given the data that's been presented,
21:37
Speaker 1: is that it sounds like this person has a psychotic disorder,
21:41
Speaker 1: perhaps as schizophrenia could be, bipolar could be Since she
21:45
Speaker 1: has another person involved with this, according to the report,
21:50
Speaker 1: you would wonder about what's called a shared delusional disorder
21:54
Speaker 1: or a feliad where two people share the same delusion. Right,
21:59
Speaker 1: are you speaking French or Latin? Flee I do? That's two?
22:04
Speaker 1: Lee I do is French. It means a folly of two,
22:07
Speaker 1: and that's a diagnosis also called shared delusional disorder. Doctor Plant,
22:14
Speaker 1: I am just a JD. You are the professor of
22:18
Speaker 1: psychology and religious studies. Hold on, just there's so much
22:21
Speaker 1: at once. Folly of two f lee I do? And
22:26
Speaker 1: you're because I can accept that one person could be
22:29
Speaker 1: schizophrenic or have some type of psychotic disorder, but two
22:33
Speaker 1: of them together in the same room and they agree
22:37
Speaker 1: to kill a baby and fold them up like a
22:39
Speaker 1: blanket and put them in a suitcase. That to me
22:44
Speaker 1: is unreasonable that there would be two people equally psychotic,
22:49
Speaker 1: which leads me with one answer. They're murderers. They knew
22:54
Speaker 1: what they were doing. They're hiding behind some crazy religious
22:57
Speaker 1: belief and they're mean as hell. Well. As I mentioned,
23:01
Speaker 1: you can't diagnose from a far but according to the
23:04
Speaker 1: American Psychiatric Association, there are a legitimate diagnosis called palia
23:11
Speaker 1: do or now it's called shared delusional disorder, and you
23:14
Speaker 1: do see it, and I've seen some of those cases. No, no,
23:18
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty unusual, but it's it's there, just like
23:21
Speaker 1: for example, schizophrenia affects maybe about one out of one
23:24
Speaker 1: hundred people, which is and falia do or shared delusional
23:29
Speaker 1: disorder would probably be about one out of a thousand
23:32
Speaker 1: people or so. M That may or may not be
23:35
Speaker 1: the diagnosis, But I think the bottom line is you've
23:38
Speaker 1: got major psychopathology here, and I think that's probably pretty clear.
23:42
Speaker 1: And the question is, you know, what what do you
23:46
Speaker 1: do when you have a situation where people have such
23:50
Speaker 1: severe disorders and they have children in their possession or
23:56
Speaker 1: in their custody. That brings into issues of child protection
24:02
Speaker 1: and so forth, which are which are often challenging to
24:08
Speaker 1: deal with them. There was probably early signs. This probably
24:11
Speaker 1: wasn't the first sign that this child was in trouble.
24:14
Speaker 1: To Steve Kramer, former FBI attorney, Federal prosecutor, President, I'm
24:19
Speaker 1: in Dago solutions, you know what. I am a Christian,
24:24
Speaker 1: I'm seeking the truth every day trying to live it.
24:28
Speaker 1: But this theory of hiding behind your religion in order
24:35
Speaker 1: to do horrible things, I'm not quite sure how to
24:38
Speaker 1: call that out. And we see it all the time. Well,
24:42
Speaker 1: I mentioned calt mom Laurie Valo using her apocalyptic religious beliefs,
24:48
Speaker 1: and she gets slung up with Chad day Bell the
24:52
Speaker 1: prophet and for those of you that can't see me,
24:54
Speaker 1: absolutely used air quoties on that. And I've seen over
24:58
Speaker 1: and over and over Steve Cramer parents. That's some religious
25:03
Speaker 1: belief and they ended up starving their children or beating
25:10
Speaker 1: them all in the name of Dare I say it God?
25:15
Speaker 1: And frankly, I mean I hear doctor Plant. I know
25:18
Speaker 1: he's a lot smarter than me, for sure, but it
25:24
Speaker 1: just doesn't make sense to me that a mother who
25:28
Speaker 1: could drive hide her baby still on the lamb by
25:33
Speaker 1: the way, she's crazy, but she can elude police and
25:38
Speaker 1: plan her next spot. She's still not caught. She's got
25:42
Speaker 1: Indiana State troopers standing on their ears trying to find her.
25:46
Speaker 1: There's a nation way to learn for her. So how
25:50
Speaker 1: crazy is she? Is she crazy like a fox? Steve Kramer?
25:53
Speaker 1: Does she have some psychosis? And if so, do you
25:58
Speaker 1: really believe both of them are delisional? I heard what
26:03
Speaker 1: doctor Plant said about Philly. I do folly of two
26:08
Speaker 1: shared delisional disorder? Not buying h I convict both of
26:13
Speaker 1: these women. Literally, their fingerprints are all over the garbage bag.
26:18
Speaker 1: They stuff this child into your turn Cramer, Yeah, I
26:22
Speaker 1: mean to call this a religion. Come on, that's nonsense.
26:26
Speaker 1: I mean, this is you know, Babbyling, not you, doctor Plant,
26:30
Speaker 1: not you. No, no, no, of course that. The last
26:33
Speaker 1: thing I want to do is get a preacher man. Okay,
26:36
Speaker 1: I don't even need that in my life. Go ahead, Cramer.
26:40
Speaker 1: Just let's make sure doctor Plant knows it's not about him.
26:44
Speaker 1: But what do you say? That is exactly what they're
26:45
Speaker 1: going to claim a trial if they're ever both caught.
26:48
Speaker 1: Go ahead, exactly. I mean putting the stuff out on
26:51
Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter about you know, their child is you
26:55
Speaker 1: know an avatar in my child? Some help possessed or
27:00
Speaker 1: to do some healing and I had to do some killing.
27:03
Speaker 1: I mean the stuff they're saying, I mean This is actually,
27:07
Speaker 1: unfortunately not that uncommon. You know, we see cases like
27:10
Speaker 1: you mentioned the Laurie Vallo Chad day Bell case where
27:13
Speaker 1: she killed allegedly her own children. We see other cases
27:17
Speaker 1: a lot of times when we find children, young children
27:21
Speaker 1: like this said, are incapable of taking care of themselves,
27:25
Speaker 1: that are abandoned someplace dead. The bodies when we eventually
27:29
Speaker 1: identify the parents, they are off with having some affair,
27:33
Speaker 1: the child was an inconvenience, or they're on some drug
27:36
Speaker 1: high again, the child's an inconvenience. So that aspect is
27:39
Speaker 1: not really uncommon. And I think in this particular case,
27:44
Speaker 1: I mean, you look at it. I mean, after she
27:46
Speaker 1: was released from jail on April eleventh, you know, she
27:49
Speaker 1: said I had to do some healing and killing, and
27:52
Speaker 1: that was around April twelfth, and you know, the body
27:55
Speaker 1: was found two days later, April fourteen, And all this
27:58
Speaker 1: point out one key thing with this, and you mentioned
28:02
Speaker 1: it earlier to Nancy, is they didn't think they were
28:06
Speaker 1: doing anything wrong. And why to hide the baby or
28:09
Speaker 1: the five year old in a suitcase and put it
28:11
Speaker 1: out in the field. And why are they on the lamb? Now?
28:13
Speaker 1: What are they running from? That they haven't done anything wrong,
28:16
Speaker 1: So clearly she knows that she's done something wrong. But
28:19
Speaker 1: what I find most interesting is her accomplice, John Coleman.
28:24
Speaker 1: They were both wanted on warrants of neglect of a
28:28
Speaker 1: dependent and obstruction of justice, and Coleman was arrested on
28:33
Speaker 1: the nineteenth October. Less than a week later, those charges
28:37
Speaker 1: were upgraded to murder against miss Anderson. So obviously she
28:43
Speaker 1: probably said something to the police exactly what happened with
28:46
Speaker 1: this child that allowed the police and the prosecutors to
28:49
Speaker 1: upgrade the charges from neglect to murder. But I mean,
28:52
Speaker 1: there's such a history Steve hiding behind some kind of religion.
28:56
Speaker 1: Why are your child dies? Let's say there's two year
28:59
Speaker 1: old old I mean, listen last night Ella Grace, her parents,
29:03
Speaker 1: Jonathan and Grace Ford, thought it was God's will there
29:07
Speaker 1: a little two year old die. Then there's nine year
29:10
Speaker 1: old Jason Lockhart out of Oklahoma, much the same, sixteen
29:14
Speaker 1: year old Neil Bigly, much the same, And they hide
29:19
Speaker 1: behind religion while their child dies. That's what I'm seeing.
29:25
Speaker 1: I mean, Max lewis fifty nine joining us, so I'm Indianapolis.
29:30
Speaker 1: What's the reaction to mommy claiming her child was possessed. Well,
29:35
Speaker 1: you know it's I am sort of speechless myself, and
29:39
Speaker 1: I think that's the way everybody else was. You know,
29:42
Speaker 1: she had tried to reach out to this priest in
29:45
Speaker 1: southeastern Indiana who was a well known performer of exorcist,
29:49
Speaker 1: Vatican trained exorcist, and I wasn't able to get a
29:54
Speaker 1: hold of him. And so that claim, I think, or
29:57
Speaker 1: that sort of claim from her and the Facebook post
30:00
Speaker 1: that you were mentioning, I think was really shocking everybody.
30:04
Speaker 1: I do want to make a point about something that
30:06
Speaker 1: doctor Plant said. He said that this child was likely
30:10
Speaker 1: in danger before, or there were likely signed before. Well
30:13
Speaker 1: there was. She was. Actually these two women, Mom and
30:17
Speaker 1: Don Coleman actually got into a car chase, court records
30:21
Speaker 1: showdown in South Carolina. They were running from the police,
30:24
Speaker 1: going over ninety miles an hour on the interstate, and
30:28
Speaker 1: the kid and the little boy, Cairo, was in the
30:30
Speaker 1: car with them. I mean, that doesn't you know spell danger?
30:34
Speaker 1: I don't know what does. So you know, clearly I
30:38
Speaker 1: think what doctor Plant said is correct. This boy was
30:40
Speaker 1: in danger before, had been in danger, and unfortunately the
30:45
Speaker 1: peers of right Steps weren't taken and he ended up
30:48
Speaker 1: in this suitcase dead. Why wasn't the baby taken away then,
30:53
Speaker 1: Max Lewis, I mean, his siblings have been taken away,
30:56
Speaker 1: Why not him? I don't know. You know, it's really
30:59
Speaker 1: a mystery and something that probably authorities in South Carolina
31:03
Speaker 1: maybe need to answer for. Because when this car chase
31:06
Speaker 1: to end ended, you know, Anderson was the one driving,
31:10
Speaker 1: the mom was the one driving, and then Don Coleman
31:13
Speaker 1: was in the passenger seat. The baby was in the
31:15
Speaker 1: backseat when this police chase ended because they ran out
31:18
Speaker 1: of gas. They basically just dropped Don Coleman and the
31:21
Speaker 1: child off at a motel and took the mom to jail,
31:25
Speaker 1: and so she was the child was given right back
31:29
Speaker 1: to them. Wow. Sounds like day facts the Farming family
31:32
Speaker 1: and Children's Services on and again. Now they have another
31:37
Speaker 1: damn child. Seemingly nobody but me cares because it keeps
31:43
Speaker 1: happening every day. Children in horrible, dangerous situations are left
31:48
Speaker 1: there because Child Protector Services does nothing. Now, speaking of exorcism,
31:54
Speaker 1: taking list of our friends at Fox fifty nine, Yeah
31:56
Speaker 1: for David in the case details a series of strange
31:59
Speaker 1: social media post police see Kirol's mother scent about demons, exorcism,
32:03
Speaker 1: and dark magic in the days before he was found.
32:06
Speaker 1: On April twelfth, Anderson reached out to an Indianapolis priest,
32:09
Speaker 1: Father Vincent Lampert, from the Archdiocese of Indianapolis on Twitter.
32:13
Speaker 1: Father Lampert is one of dozens of priests who are
32:16
Speaker 1: exorcists in the US. As you may know, and exorcist
32:18
Speaker 1: is someone trained to cast out demons. Father Lampert told
32:22
Speaker 1: us it's rare that a child dealing with quote demonic possession.
32:27
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as an emergency exorcism. It really
32:30
Speaker 1: begins with the person having a psychiatric evaluation by a
32:34
Speaker 1: qualified psychologists or psychiatrists, and then having a medical examination
32:39
Speaker 1: of the family doctor. Father Lampert says when someone contacts him,
32:43
Speaker 1: he encourages them to talk to their pastor and their
32:46
Speaker 1: family doctor. Time Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Thomas Plant,
33:08
Speaker 1: joining us professor Stamford University and author doctor Plant, What
33:12
Speaker 1: exactly is an exorcism? Have you ever been present during
33:17
Speaker 1: an exorcism? No, I haven't been present during an exorcism,
33:21
Speaker 1: but I have worked with an exorcist, and he refers
33:25
Speaker 1: patients to me. I refer patients to him. And an
33:30
Speaker 1: exorcist is trained to perform a ritual. As you know,
33:35
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church has lots of rituals, and this is
33:39
Speaker 1: one a ritual that of training so that they it's
33:46
Speaker 1: they're trains through the Vatican and so forth. The Vatican
33:48
Speaker 1: approved and exorcists like them, this gentleman you just mentioned. Uh,
33:56
Speaker 1: And including the exorcist that I've worked with, we'll say
33:58
Speaker 1: that ninety nine point nine percent of the time of
34:02
Speaker 1: cases are major psychopathology and what's necessary is a psychiatric
34:07
Speaker 1: evaluation or medical evaluation and so forth, and their troubles
34:12
Speaker 1: are really in that arena. Uh. And I think that's
34:16
Speaker 1: that's true when it comes to religion. Sadly and tragically,
34:21
Speaker 1: some people use religion for great harm and some people
34:25
Speaker 1: use religion for great good. And I think that it's
34:29
Speaker 1: sort of like a car. You know, a car can
34:31
Speaker 1: be a great thing. It gets you where you want
34:33
Speaker 1: to go, but a car in the hands of a
34:35
Speaker 1: drunk driver is a terrible weapon. The same is true
34:39
Speaker 1: with religion. In this case, as you said, this woman
34:43
Speaker 1: may have been using those imagery and things like that
34:47
Speaker 1: to justify her behavior, which is horrific. But you know, sadly,
34:54
Speaker 1: that is a common phenomenon across the world, and it
34:57
Speaker 1: always has been, where people project their troubles and whatnot
35:02
Speaker 1: onto kind of religion and then justify their actions in
35:07
Speaker 1: that way. You know, doctor Thomas Plant. There is one
35:11
Speaker 1: thing I know for sure, and that is that I
35:16
Speaker 1: know very very little. I know how to try a
35:19
Speaker 1: murder case and any other criminal case. I know the
35:22
Speaker 1: law at the back of my hand. That's pretty much it. Oh,
35:25
Speaker 1: I know how to cook, I know how to do that.
35:29
Speaker 1: But this is so far out of my league what
35:33
Speaker 1: you're talking about, you know what, doctor Plant. I also
35:36
Speaker 1: find it interesting that I'm sort of an intellectual snobbery.
35:42
Speaker 1: Many people do not believe in exorcisms or demons or devils.
35:51
Speaker 1: It does sound fantastical, that's true. But so does fly
35:58
Speaker 1: into the moon, so tess the Hubble telescope. So many
36:03
Speaker 1: things sound fantastical. And I think that it's narrow minded
36:10
Speaker 1: for anyone to suggest what is and is not possible,
36:15
Speaker 1: because clearly, extremely educated, learned people like yourself do believe
36:23
Speaker 1: it is very very real. Somehow I've gotten off into
36:29
Speaker 1: the validity or invalidity of exorcisms about which I know nothing.
36:35
Speaker 1: I do know about crime, and what you said is
36:39
Speaker 1: entirely true. Doctor Plant, just got Morgan. I know forensics,
36:45
Speaker 1: I know crime, and that's what I'm going to fall
36:48
Speaker 1: back home when I don't understand the rest. I want you,
36:52
Speaker 1: specifically to take a listen to Courtney Spinelli Fox fifty nine.
36:56
Speaker 1: A child who for months was only known as the
36:58
Speaker 1: boy found in a suit case in rural Indiana now
37:01
Speaker 1: has a name. Five year old Cairo Jordan Stuet has
37:06
Speaker 1: a ruby second head. Cairo's paternal grandparents and great uncles
37:09
Speaker 1: say they only learned he died one day ago. The
37:12
Speaker 1: child they call a sweet boy would have turned six
37:14
Speaker 1: this week. I would have wanted to know what kind
37:18
Speaker 1: of person he would have come to be, things like
37:21
Speaker 1: whether he would have grown up to play football like
37:23
Speaker 1: his dad did when he was Younger. Authorities are still
37:26
Speaker 1: trying to find Kiro's mother, Dejan Anderson, now charged in
37:30
Speaker 1: his murder dash. Do you know that us know and
37:34
Speaker 1: we would have easily talking how many children that just
37:38
Speaker 1: got Morgan? Death investigator? Have you been at the murder scene,
37:44
Speaker 1: the homicide saying, the death saying, the autopsy where mommy
37:49
Speaker 1: or daddy is a killer, But the rest of the
37:53
Speaker 1: family did nothing. They knew there was a problem. How
37:57
Speaker 1: could this family not know Mommy was arrested for US
38:00
Speaker 1: felony in South Carolina and got the child back. And
38:03
Speaker 1: that's counting on the fact that the individual had contact
38:07
Speaker 1: with her family. But lots of times you'll have these
38:09
Speaker 1: individuals that will know, I mean, they will know that
38:14
Speaker 1: what's going on within that household is wrong, and nobody
38:18
Speaker 1: interdicts it because nobody wants to get crossways with the
38:21
Speaker 1: family members, and nobody wants to create a problem with
38:24
Speaker 1: the family members and all for what. Now, in this
38:27
Speaker 1: particular case, you've got this baby who was abandoned like garbage.
38:32
Speaker 1: Let's just face it. That's the way he was treated
38:34
Speaker 1: out in the middle of the woods. And you can't
38:38
Speaker 1: tell me there weren't red flags leading up to this.
38:40
Speaker 1: I've seen this over and over and over again, and
38:43
Speaker 1: we know that the mother moved around a lot. I
38:47
Speaker 1: want to listen, Ji can't want to cut foward to
38:49
Speaker 1: our cut number thirty eight, Fox fifty nine, listen. In
38:53
Speaker 1: a series of posts, Anderson indicated she believed Cairo was
38:56
Speaker 1: possessed family wishes. Anyone seeing these posts reached out to
39:00
Speaker 1: offer help that could have saved Cairo, that could have
39:05
Speaker 1: saved his mom, could have brought him back to Georgian
39:08
Speaker 1: who could have helped him at whatever we're head to.
39:10
Speaker 1: Even as they worked to grasp what happened to Cairo,
39:12
Speaker 1: they're grateful for the strangers who never stopped fighting for justice.
39:16
Speaker 1: We definitely want to think that people in Indiana who
39:20
Speaker 1: did give him a proper burial, that was so nice
39:25
Speaker 1: of them. His shows what kind of what humanity really is. Okay,
39:29
Speaker 1: Maya's spinning right now because you've got the grandparents the
39:34
Speaker 1: other family going Wow, I wish someone had done something.
39:37
Speaker 1: What about you? You don't have social media. You didn't
39:41
Speaker 1: know that this mom was posting her son is the devil. Well,
39:46
Speaker 1: now he's dead and she is on the run. Tipline
39:51
Speaker 1: eight eight eight four three seven six four three two.
39:55
Speaker 1: May justice unfold. Goodbye friend three