Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / Dave Stone | Transitions and Standing in the Middle | BP2 Season 2 Episode 14
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Dave Stone, welcome back to the Better Preaching Podcast. dave: It's great to be back with you. I I love that tagline that you have better preaching makes a bigger impact. That's that's awesome. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, look, that's what it's all about, right? Impact. And if we can if we can improve preaching, then we can we can have a bigger impact. Because I I still believe that the church is the hope of the world. And the the the preaching that we provide every week, it's it's a primary means of discipleship and instruction. And there are others, of course, but if we can make preaching better, we can we can grow the church, we can grow the kingdom. So dave: Amen. Amen. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, one of the questions I wanted to get to in our last episode that I just didn't I I wanted to talk to you about your book, Refining Your Style, which I used to use when I taught advanced homiletics, been out of print for a while. But if if our listeners can find a copy used on Amazon or some you know, get a garage sale somewhere, pick that book dave: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: up, man. That's just a great book, Dave. talk to me a little bit about why you wrote that book. And then I'd like to hear a little bit about how your style has been refined over the years. dave: Hmm. Well, interesting question or interesting story with that because I was at the time preaching at Southeast Christian and learning so much. I was about to take over the reins from from Bob Russell. And I I was a student of great preaching. I loved to Immerse myself, I take notes on every single message that I hear. I've done that ever since I was 18 years old. Doesn't matter if it's a salutatorian talking at a graduation, I'm gonna take notes on on everybody because I wanna learn. I wanna be a a person who is a learner and not a knower. And so I pitched to a publishing company this idea of talking to 13 different communicators. each of them who were a particular style and how it is that so many people they try to be a copy of someone else when God made us all originals. And so I find this in Bible colleges. They they will find a person that they love to listen to and then they'll try to be that person. And yet God made them the way he did for a purpose and they have different strengths. And so I just talk about thirteen different styles that are are out there. And and I sat down with thirteen different great communicators and picked their brain. And I said to the publishing company, I said, Hey, can you guys give me a budget to travel around and I'll talk to these people? And they said, We love the idea. You can write the book, we'll pay you this to write the book, but there's no budget to do it. And so I had to get incredibly creative. And so I would find people who were preaching at different conventions, and I would hit up Lee Strobel and say, Hey, can I have Thirty-five minutes of your time, 40 minutes of your time. And I would Chuck Colson. I went to Chuck Colson's office and met with him in Virginia. All these different people who I want Zig Ziglar. Somehow I got to talk to Zig Ziggler, Dr. Frank Weller: Mm. dave: who was the number one salesperson and a committed Christian, largest Sunday school class in the country at the time. And he was my persuasive motivator. That was the area that I talked to. So I got to go to all these different things. There'd be some trade-off. I I did devotions for Zig Ziglar's people for his whole staff that morning in order to get to talk to him. But I learned a great deal from every single person. And it it instilled something within me to want to be my own person and the person God made me. after I'd been in Southeast for a couple of years, one time Bob Russell called me in because my cadence was starting to sound like his cadence. And I was saying things that were more him than me. And Frank he sat me down and he looked at me and he said, we already have a Bob Russell on staff. He said, We hired you to be Dave Stone. We need a Dave Stone on staff. Just be yourself. Dr. Frank Weller: Mm. dave: And what that did for me as a young preacher to realize, he went on to say, you have some gifts that I don't have, and I have some gifts that you don't have. He said, just be yourself. And it was freeing to me. And that's what I wanted to do in that book. I wanted to free people up that you don't have to be like this preacher. You don't have to be like that preacher. You just be yourself, you know, and and it was it was eye-opening for me, and I wanted to pass that blessing on to others. how is my style how how has my style changed through the years? you know, I used to preach from an outline. And then when I started coming started at Southeast, I really needed the discipline of a manuscript. And so I started manuscripting my sermons. And I did that, you know, countless times. And now I still preach from a manuscript. But my goal, I take seventeen pages up there. Wow. Seventeen pages, word for word, you know, around forty-six hundred words and I'll preach around fifty, fifty-one hundred, but I'll have forty-six hundred manuscripted out. And I still do that, but I try to do a better job on on knowing my introduction quite well and knowing my conclusion quite well. I want to have better eye contact than I do have. I want to know my material better. I find myself trying to practice it out loud at least once. I will put on voice memo my key story or clarifying story and I will listen to it over and over again so that I know that story and I have my timing and my cadence worked out well with that. but I think my my preaching has changed. I'm a little more emotional now than I used to be. I watched my dad do this the longer he preached and the older he got the more emotion and passion was there. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, see, now let me interrupt there, Dave, because I I I I just something about when I turned forty five and my kids were approaching high school graduation, just I I became this mushball of weepiness. And it's just gotten it's just continued. It's gotten worse. dave: I'm the I'm the same way, brother. I'll be in the same support group with you, you know? Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. My daughter's expecting our first grandchild. And I I I'm like, yeah. dave: Yeah, you're your history, brother. You're you're gonna be a goner. Mush city. Dr. Frank Weller: I'm looking I'm looking at the the you know, they got those three D ultrasounds now. how dave: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: do I even hold it together? dave: well let me tell you, it's gonna get worse. It's not gonna get better the rest of the way. And when I shake hands at at Southeast or at at C C V in Phoenix before the service People will come in and they'll say, I guess we're gonna cry today. I guess we're gonna cry today. And I'll look at them and and I'll I've done this several times. I'll say, no, no, no, I've I've read through it. No, no tears today. And then I'll get halfway in it and I'll be telling a story about family, like you said, or a grandkid. And all of a sudden, and I'm like looking for that person afterwards to say, I'm sorry, you were right, I was wrong. Dr. Frank Weller: Yep. Yeah. And that's just I think part of getting older, but y you know, it comes out. dave: Yeah, and I think there's subjects that I think there's topics that for me it's it's family, it's evangelism, and generosity. Those are my spots where I really get my gut in those sermons. And sometimes the tears just just flow. I was watching a clip, I just preached at Southeast and they put a clip up and I'm I'm crying through the whole clip. but I'm talking about the the woman, the Samaritan woman at the well, and Jesus revealing that he's the Messiah to her. And I've got written, gosh, I've got written at the top of that page. I wrote down nine nine names of people who I'm praying for that don't know Christ. And I wrote them at the top of that page. For a reason. It's because I wanted to have them in my mind as I'm preaching that page. And so lo and behold, they pull that clip out for something on social media, and someone might look at that and think, you know, well, I wonder why he's so emotional talking about that. Well, I'm emotional because I've got nine flesh and blood People and names right there before me who we've been praying for, some of them for decades, you know. And so yeah, it does get in your system. But the when you have this grandchild, brother, there's gonna Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. dave: be a lump in your throat. You better get used to preaching with a lump in your throat. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, we're sure ready for that grand baby. That now the here's the the tough part, Dave. my daughter lives in Australia. dave: I remember you telling me that a few months ago. Wow. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Yeah. So it's gonna be a lot of FaceTime. dave: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: but but grandbaby with an accent, that's gonna be pretty cool. dave: That's gonna be really cool. That's Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. dave: gonna be great. You're gonna be asking all questions that are compare and contrast. You'll never ask your grandchild a yes or no question. Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, you you put a lot of effort into crafting a transition sentence when you're preaching too, to get from one one point dave: Mm. Dr. Frank Weller: to another. And I I think we overlook that. I think the transition statement might be one of the most important elements in a good sermon. dave: sometimes I I've I've found this out by listening to different preachers. And sometimes I would hear his illustration that I'm like, whoa, that's a great illustration. And then they kind of look out and they don't know what to say next. And then they have to walk back over to their podium and glance down to see what their next thing is. And then they they move on. One of the biggest mistakes that I I see preachers make, and I made it for years, is that they try to put a collection of stories together, but if you don't cement those together with a transitional sentence, then you know. you you lose the impact. I'll say it this way: a story that is a seven, a pretty good story, can become a nine if you have a good transition. I'm trying to think of one. Let me Dr. Frank Weller: Mm. dave: give you this as an example. just off the top of my head. John Bell years ago was the president of the Special Olympics. He talks about going to witness his first time to ever go to a Special Olympics track meet. And he said it was something. He said it was truly special. And he said there came a point where there was going to be a hundred-yard dash and he said there were eight kids with special needs that were lined up there. The gun sounded and all eight of them all you could see were arms and legs. Going everywhere, and they're running their way down. And the guy that's in the lead on the race, about five yards from the finish line, trips and falls. And something happened. The other runners came back and they picked him up and they dusted him off. And arm in arm, all eight of them walked across the finish line together. And some people say, They're not as smart as we are. So I can stop it with walking across the finish line and it's an eight. But when I add the the line after a pause and say some people say that they're not as smart as we are, all of a sudden that that story goes up to a nine or a ten. And it builds a bridge into the that next thing. And it's so it's not a story that just stands here and then I have to come up with something that's next and and build that bridge. I make a I choose a sentence that builds the bridge for what direction I want to go. And now all of a sudden that moves right into a challenge of saying, how do you treat people who are overlooked? Jesus was constantly reaching out. That's his whole ministry was all around interruptions. His whole ministry was all around those who were the outcast, the overlooked, the unseen, the person who no one gave time of day to. But Jesus stopped and said, What's your name? I'm gonna go to your house today for for dinner. You know, I mean, it's it's a powerful even the demon-possessed Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. dave: man. The the Gadarene Demoniac, the very first line that Jesus ever says to him is, What's your name? Takes an interest and gives the guy some type of value and then gets the response and the whole rest of the world finds out, my gosh, this guy's filled with a bunch of demons, you know. So yeah. But I I do like sentences. Dr. Frank Weller: You cannot yeah, you can't you can't trust that the let me put it this way. You have to lean into the explicit application or connection. too often we just throw it out there and we trust that the Holy Spirit's gonna connect that and it's gonna be implied. And that that's true in application too, right, Dave? So a after you've you've made that connection, then it has to be, hey, here's some some explicit specific ways that you can apply what we've just learned. And even just priming that pump with some explicit application helps connect with your listeners. And the Holy Spirit then begins to stir inside of them and they begin to think of ways, okay, well, this is maybe what God wants me to do with what I've just learned. dave: And Frank, you you do that. Sometimes you will you will use a list, you will give three or four different choices, and this is how that might apply. You know, if you're you're talking about honesty, let's say, maybe it's gonna be a a list, you make that decision when you sign your taxes on that last page and say, I certify that everything that I said on here was true, to the best of my knowledge. You you make that decision when you turn an expense report to the boss. You make that decision when your your wife says, What were you watching? you make that decision when and you give them about four or five different things. And now you're trying to say, I want to make certain that every person in that crowd is hit by one of these, whether it's general or specific. And so a person can find themselves in that, and then that application, pierces their heart because of the fact that you have helped them make that application. Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, when I think about your experience as Southeast Christian, the the verse that comes to mind in 2 Timothy 2.2, which I've I've preached on a lot, the things you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. And sort of my sticky point from that sermon is that Christians stand in the middle, that we intentionally place ourselves in the middle between the generation that went before us and the generation that's coming behind us. I think the way you experience transition at Southeast Christian really personifies that the things you've heard me say. You know, you learned from Bob and then you embodied that and then you brought your own experience and giftedness to the table, and then you pass that on to Kyle. Talk to me about preaching specifically. What did dave: Hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: you learn about preaching from Bob and what advice about preaching have you passed on to Kyle over the years? dave: Yeah, well that's a that's a great question. I I learned so much from Bob. I learned that you don't have to always seek that spotlight. You know, I don't know of a I don't know of a pastor of a of a large church that shared the spotlight the way Bob Russell did. we would preach together at Christmas time. And sometimes at Easter time. I'll never forget on Easter one year when he said, Hey, why not you take Easter this year? I'm like, What? You know, I was Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. dave: 40 years old or 38 years old or something. Just unheard of to have the associate be the person that that preaches for Easter. But he was always doing things like that. I I used to say, I I feel like I'm playing behind an all-American quarterback. But I'm getting to play a quarter of the game. you know, just just getting my feet wet and and learning and being put in those situations. And he would throw me in with tough topics. He wouldn't give me a cake walk and and set me up that way. Is the longer I was there, the the tougher the topics would be that sometimes I'd get assigned in a in a sermon series. And that was really healthy for me. But there was a rhyme and reason to that because it also he was stretching me to see if the church could see me as a leader who who could handle those tough controversial topics. so I tried to pass those same opportunities along to Kyle. And I tried to team teach with Kyle oftentimes and we would share Easter's or Christmas Eve and and he would take it one year and I might take it the next year. And so it was a a lot of that same back and forth that I had learned from from Bob. Another thing that I think that, you know, I I've had a unique seat in that I got to follow a guy for 40 years. And I got to lead for 14 years, and then I got to pass things off to Kyle. So Bob was at Southeast for 40 years. I preached for 30 years, and for 16, 17 of those, I was the associate, but 13, 14 of those years, I was the lead pastor. Kyle yesterday celebrated 25 years at Southeast. Dr. Frank Weller: Has it been that long? Wow. dave: Is is that unbelievable. And so you you've got this heritage of lengthy stays, and there's something that happens when people stay and you have similar voices, you know, for decades. And so that's that's part of the the beauty of what's taken place and of God's blessing at at that church. But what did I pass on to Kyle? I I hope I modeled for him some some things that I think he already knew. He might have gotten to see some of that up close and personal. But I'd say I've learned a whole lot more about preaching from Bob and Kyle than I ever passed on to Kyle. Kyle has exceptional gifts of preaching. and so did Bob and so does Bob. They they both do a tremendous job. But I've learned more from Kyle when I think about some of the areas that I need to stretch in in recent years. he'll work really hard at knowing his message inside and out. And he talks a lot about eye contact and how important that is. And rather than memorizing verbatim that manuscript that he preaches from, instead he'll he'll memorize it in chunks and then he doesn't get wrapped up in if he misses a word here or there. he said something one time in a preaching workshop that I was listening to that he was giving. He said, what you might lose in precision, you will gain in clarity and you'll gain with your audience of them leaning in. And I thought Boy, that's that's really good because I get so wrapped up in having the wording exactly the way I have written it, but I lose that eye contact in glancing down to look at that. And he gains that in connection with the people through his knowledge of his material. And Bob used to read through his his message four times on a Saturday morning. People would say, you know, Boy I'd l wish I could preach like Bob Russell. I said, well let me ask you a question. Are you gonna put twenty hours into your sermon prep and then on Saturday, will you get up at six in the morning and read through it four times? Because you can preach like Bob Russell if you're willing to pay the price and do that. And most Dr. Frank Weller: Right. dave: people most people aren't willing to pay that price. Dr. Frank Weller: It's a lot of work. dave: Yeah, it is. It is. It's a it's a lot of work. And for the pastors who are listening to this right now, you might say, I don't have twenty hours. Well, I understand that. I mean, but is there a way that you could go from six hours of preparation to eight hours of preparation? Is there a way that you could improve your preaching by by saying, I'm gonna have three people read over my manuscript and I'm gonna send it to them on a Friday morning, and they're gonna send me back their thoughts. thoughts by Friday night, and then on Saturday I'm going to make those changes and tweaks because another set of eyes is going to make this a much better product. You know, one thing that Bob and Kyle and I have done is we critique each other after the first hour. And we would hear each other preach the first hour. We'd huddle up together. if there were two services on Saturday night, back then we would we would do it after the first service before the second. the same thing happens in Phoenix when I preach at Christ Church of the Valley. Second the first service is over, I go out and shake hands for five minutes. I come into a room that's already full, waiting on me. I come right back in and they critique my sermon. And it's not always fun. It's not a It's not an enjoyable, hey man, this is great, this is great, you're the man. It's how can we make it a little bit better and they're s talking from their vantage point. So I've got people critiquing my sermon before I preach it from a manuscript. I've got people critiquing it after I've preached it one time so that it can be better in multiple services. Dr. Frank Weller: And you've got to check your ego at the door to do that. You've got to have enough humility to say the message matters more than the man who's delivering it. You've got to be able to say, I can I can set aside my ownership and pride in in this sermon for the benefit of the people who are gonna be hearing it second service, third service, fourth service. And it just takes a level of humility to do that. dave: And and you have to be wise about who you invite into that inner circle to do that. you don't want a yes man that does nothing but say, this was great, this was great. You also don't want someone who always brings you down, and so now you feel like, this is trash that I've got, why am I even in the ministry? You want somebody that will be honest with you and and will tell you the thoughts that they have and the observations that that they have. And that's how the sermon gets better. It's it's It's like, you know, this is your baby you're carrying. You know, you talked about your grandchild coming soon. That's what you've done as a preacher. For the last week, you have Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. dave: you have carried this baby. And you know, Rick Rusaw says, you know, preaching is a strange thing. He said you it's like giving birth on Sunday morning and waking up Monday morning and finding out you're pregnant again. You know? You gotta you gotta carry that baby and and and work with it all week and then you're gonna deliver it to them and then the process starts all over again. Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, the context of where you're preaching has changed a lot. I remember something Mike Breaux said. we're gonna get Mike on the podcast coming up too, but Mike, Mike said that when he was in Lexington and then he went to Las Vegas, he said Las Vegas was easier. contextually, because you could tell the sinners from the saints where in Lexington they all kind of looked the same, which I thought was really an interesting perspective. dave: A lot of truth to that, yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: But contextualized preaching is just really important. In fact, my my doctoral dissertation centered a lot on contextualized preaching. How's the context in Louisville different from the context in the valley? dave: let me start by saying what's the same, because I I find this a lot of different places where I go. Churches that don't have an evangelistic heart, the concept of trying to challenge them to invite people. I want I want a person to feel comfortable on bringing a guest. And that's what Southeast and C C V have in common. is that, yeah. There there is this desire to bring the unchurch there. And there that's why both churches I think continue to grow, is because that's in the mindset when you stand in the in In the pulpit to preach, is that, we're we're trying to make this so that a person can bring a guest with them who is unchurched, who they've prayed with, they've prayed for. They are dying for that person to come. And then when they come, they know, okay, this is going to be a safe place. Will they be challenged? Sure. Will there be any compromise? Absolutely not. But it's gonna be done in love and it's gonna be done truth with grace. So that would be the common thread that I see. And I share that because there are a lot of churches where I go where they're not accustomed to hearing stories that promote evangelism, or where they would not even think of it let me let me say it this way, I'm not explaining it real well. There are places where I have preached. Where they are not in the habit of inviting people to come to church. Instead, it's more the frozen chosen, it's the people coming together who already know God's word. And so as a result of that, you know, they just want to be deepened, but they don't want to be challenged. They want to grow in their knowledge of the word, but not in the spiritual disciplines of sharing their faith with others or giving generously or serving wholeheartedly within the church. What I've noticed contextually from Phoenix to from Louisville to Phoenix is that in in Phoenix they might not know as much of the Bible as what they do in the Bible belt. And there are a lot more baby Christians out there than there are at maybe in Louisville or Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, which is where I've spent the majority of my time growing up and and in ministry. So Dr. Frank Weller: And so that changes the way you preach, right? Because now it's hey, instead of the Apostle Paul said it's hey, there's this guy named Paul who is this missionary who traveled around the Mediterranean basin, planted churches. I mean, y you you're just providing a lot more information because you can't make the same kinds of assumptions that you might make in another context. dave: That's a great point. And all the way down to where I'm sixty five years old, where I might mention Billy Graham in a message in Louisville, but when I'm out in Phoenix, I might say, Billy Graham was a household name for a number of decades. He was a preacher who preached in crusades all around the world. And I might have to give that clarifying information. The same as, like you said, with a well-known Bible character that I might take for granted that people are more acquainted with in the Bible belt, but in in another setting, that might not be the case. And I don't want to contextualize it by regions. a lot depends upon what the mission of that church is and and how they go after the unchurched. there are some churches where I walk in and man, I say turn in your Bible too, and I hear pages rustling like crazy. There are others where I I don't hear any noise and I'll say we're gonna have it on the screen for you, or you can check it out on your mobile device. But I want to make certain you lean in on this because this is God's word, you know. So different different places, different things. Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, it's hard to believe we've just churned through another half an hour. What just good, good stuff. I want to just I want to extend just a minute though and give you the opportunity to to say if you were giving advice to young Dave Stone, so you've just become senior minister, I think it was what in 2006, wasn't it, at Southeast dave: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Christian. So go back 20 years, you're giving advice to a 45-year-old Dave. what what's the advice you? You'd give to your younger self. dave: Hmm. Well, I'd probably say a couple of different things. You know, you're gonna experience some really tough seasons. I can remember Gene Appel and I, we were both in a transition at the same time, and he was a pastor in Chicago at the time, and I was at in Louisville. He said, We're gonna have to learn how to manage problems. He said, Because you always have problems. As a senior pastor, you'll have some small things that are going on with some some staff. You'll have some some things in the middle of the organization, some staff issues, but he said there'll be every year a a major issue with someone who's up there high on the food chain in your on your org chart. And those are the tough ones. And I I would say to young pastor, just know that you will be betrayed by someone who's close to you on your team. And I've watched this with with Bob and with Kyle and myself where there are people who were, you know, very close to you and they'll they'll stab you in the back. And it's it's sad and it hurts, but I think expecting it and knowing that those things might happen, yeah, I'm gonna trust positive intentions, but then when you do get burned sometime Just know that's okay. People are imperfect. I'm an imperfect leader as well. And hurt people, hurt people. And there's usually something a little bit deeper. But don't let that sour you on ministry, preaching God's word. Instead allow that to motivate you to lean into God's word and to rely on the Holy Spirit more. And that would be my last thing I I would just say is that I feel like if I could talk to myself from 20 years ago, I think I relied on the flesh more than the spirit. Dr. Frank Weller: Mm. dave: And one time I had a person say to me, if the Holy Spirit were to completely pull out of your life, would you even notice that he was gone? And I think that's a question that all of us in ministry have to wrestle with. Are are we doing ministry in our own strength, in our own power? Or are we really relying on the Spirit and tackling things that can only be accomplished when we do it through the power of the Holy Spirit? Dr. Frank Weller: Dave, I appreciate you, man. can we have you back on some other time? dave: Yeah, yeah, I'd love it. And Frank, let me tell you, brother, you are knocking it out of the park. I appreciate the what fact that you are creative and innovative in your leadership at Great Lakes. God put you there for a reason. I think you've been there a little over four years. And I I there are very few Christian colleges that can say that they have grown consistently for four years, but that just shows your emphasis on preaching, on church leadership. on spiritual formation. God's blessing that. And can't wait to see what God's going continue to do through your leadership and through the Better Preaching podcast. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, thanks, Dave. Thanks. hey, and I want to thank our listeners. I want to remind our listeners also check out Dave's Pastor to Pastor podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And I want to thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. And I just want to ask you, hey, take a minute and like, rate the podcast, hit the subscribe button and check out our website at betterpreaching.org. Join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.