Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / TEEN SON’S SICK OBSESSION W/ MOM: WHO MURDERED MOM JESSICA & ELI, 8?

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TEEN SON’S SICK OBSESSION W/ MOM: WHO MURDERED MOM JESSICA & ELI, 8? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Tonight, a teen son's sick obsession with his own mother
0:06
Speaker 1: who murdered mom, Jessica, and her little boy, Eli, just
0:11
Speaker 1: eight years old. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
0:15
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
0:25
Speaker 2: Jessica Lyman and her eight-year-old son Eli are found dead
0:28
Speaker 2: from gunshot wounds inside their Utah home. Now, the investigation
0:32
Speaker 2: takes a shocking turn as Jessica's 16-year-old son is arrested
0:36
Speaker 2: in connection with the murders.
0:39
Speaker 3: Saratoga Springs police officers responded to a medical assist call
0:42
Speaker 3: at 1244 Willowbrook Lane. Upon arrival, officers located 43-year-old Jessica
0:49
Speaker 3: Lyman and eight-year-old Eli Painter, both suffering from gunshot wounds.
0:54
Speaker 3: Despite efforts to save them, both victims succumbed to their injuries.
1:00
Speaker 1: A mother and her 8-year-old little boy, Eli, found dead
1:04
Speaker 1: from multiple gunshot wounds in their own home. That's from
1:07
Speaker 1: our friends at KUTV. That was Chief Andrew Burton at
1:10
Speaker 1: Saratoga Springs PD in Utah. A mother and a little
1:15
Speaker 1: boy dead in their own home while the teen son, Noah...
1:21
Speaker 1: says he slept through the entire thing, at least three
1:27
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. Before I get to the location of the
1:32
Speaker 1: body and the facts surrounding the deaths of a mother
1:34
Speaker 1: and son, straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us,
1:38
Speaker 1: renowned psychoanalyst. You can see her on Peacock. You can
1:41
Speaker 1: see her on Hulu. You can see her on Bravo.
1:46
Speaker 1: And she's the star of a brand new podcast, On
1:49
Speaker 1: the Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her
1:52
Speaker 1: at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, thank you for being with us tonight. First,
1:57
Speaker 1: before I can even get to the murders, there was
2:00
Speaker 1: a very bizarre dynamic going on in the home. At
2:07
Speaker 1: the scene of the crime, hold, isn't it true Vanessa
2:11
Speaker 1: Waltz joining us? She's the star of Unmasked True Crime.
2:14
Speaker 1: Isn't it true in the home, near mom's body, her,
2:22
Speaker 1: first of all, her underwear and her shorts were pulled
2:26
Speaker 1: down around her knees. But on the bed, on her bed,
2:34
Speaker 1: isn't it true there was seminal fluid?
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Speaker 4: Yes, Nancy, that's correct. CSI Techs did find dried seminal
2:44
Speaker 4: fluid on the sheets next to Jessica's body.
2:48
Speaker 1: And, question, Is it also true, Vanessa, that in mom's
2:53
Speaker 1: room there was one fishnet stocking and the other matching
2:57
Speaker 1: fishnet stocking was in her son's room?
3:03
Speaker 4: Yes, these details are very disturbing. They found multiple sex
3:08
Speaker 4: toys and lubricant both in Jessica's room and her 15-year-old
3:12
Speaker 4: son's room. And then as you mentioned, they found black
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Speaker 4: fishnet stockings. One of them was in Jessica's room. The
3:19
Speaker 4: other one was in her son's room. They also found
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Speaker 4: some women's underwear in his room and some very bizarre
3:27
Speaker 4: handwritten notes.
3:29
Speaker 1: Bizarre handwritten notes.
3:30
Speaker 4: Yes.
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Speaker 1: You know what, Vanessa, you're right. And there, there's so
3:33
Speaker 1: much evidence to go through. And let me tell you, Vanessa,
3:37
Speaker 1: I've worked many, many homicide scenes. Everything you find, um,
3:43
Speaker 1: has got to be documented very carefully and put into evidence.
3:47
Speaker 1: I hope nothing was left behind.
3:49
Speaker 5: To Dr.
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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, before I get into the fishnet hose and
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Speaker 1: all of that, I want to talk to you about
3:57
Speaker 1: some texts that we have uncovered, texts from the son
4:02
Speaker 1: to the mother.
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Speaker 4: I mean, Dr.
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Speaker 1: Bethany, if one of my twins sent me this, I
4:09
Speaker 1: would just go lay on the railroad tracks. I don't
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Speaker 1: like you. Go away. Leave me the f * * * alone.
4:17
Speaker 1: Shut the f * * * up, please. Do you
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Speaker 1: need to learn how to shut your mouth? I'm more
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Speaker 1: happy when I'm not around you. Shut up, witch. Shut
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Speaker 1: the f * * * up. Can't hear you. You're
4:35
Speaker 1: so effing mentally ill. Do you know how insignificant you
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Speaker 1: are in my life? Very insignificant. I wish I died
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Speaker 1: and your stomach wouldn't have to put up with you.
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Speaker 1: That pains me to even read it. Bethany, hold one
4:52
Speaker 1: more moment. Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave,
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Speaker 1: I just want to clarify something. Where on her body
5:03
Speaker 1: was Mom Jessica shot?
5:07
Speaker 6: In the head, Nancy.
5:09
Speaker 1: Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. Sorry, Dr. Bethany, I
5:13
Speaker 1: went to you earlier, but I wanted to give you
5:15
Speaker 1: the lead up with those texts and where the mom
5:18
Speaker 1: was shot because you and I have both investigated cases
5:23
Speaker 1: where the shooter, no one has been convicted in this
5:28
Speaker 1: crime as of tonight. The shooter, in many cases, wants
5:34
Speaker 1: the victim to, quote, shut their mouth and they shoot
5:37
Speaker 1: them in the mouth or in the face.
5:41
Speaker 5: They also want to render them unconscious, unable to think
5:46
Speaker 5: about what's going on in the situation. You know, Nancy,
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Speaker 5: the gunshot to the head as well as the semen
5:54
Speaker 5: beside the mother's body tells a story because whenever there's
5:57
Speaker 5: semen around by the body rather than in the body.
6:02
Speaker 5: One of the things we consider is a rage killing,
6:05
Speaker 5: that the killer was in such a frenzy, masturbating, trying
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Speaker 5: to dominate the mother, that he couldn't even perform properly
6:16
Speaker 5: in terms of what he set out to do. So
6:18
Speaker 5: sometimes in these kinds of crime scenes, we find semen
6:21
Speaker 5: in the corner of the room, on the stairs. So
6:23
Speaker 5: that's one point The second is this son had such
6:26
Speaker 5: a hateful preoccupation with his mother. And what I think
6:29
Speaker 5: is underneath it is this simmering resentment, the sense that
6:33
Speaker 5: you've let me down. You haven't given me everything I wanted.
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Speaker 1: I wanted more.
6:37
Speaker 5: You didn't do it for me. And it would be
6:39
Speaker 5: interesting to look at other texts. and see what kinds
6:42
Speaker 5: of demands he's made of his mother, right? And if
6:46
Speaker 5: he is any way implicated in this, why would he
6:49
Speaker 5: also target his little brother who's only eight years old?
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Speaker 5: Was he preoccupied that the mother had more affection towards
6:57
Speaker 5: the little boy than towards him? And then finally, I
7:00
Speaker 5: would want to know in terms of the first responders
7:02
Speaker 5: on the scene or whoever interviewed, did he seem to
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Speaker 5: have interest empathy towards his mother and towards his little
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Speaker 5: brother or did he start from the get-go like male
7:13
Speaker 5: abusers oftenly do deprecating his mother putting her down saying
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Speaker 5: that she had it coming to her or also did
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Speaker 5: he did he construct some elaborate story you know i'm
7:24
Speaker 5: sleeping you know he had a she had a boyfriend
7:26
Speaker 5: but the I imagine we're going to have an absence
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Speaker 5: of such stories. And what we're going to find instead
7:34
Speaker 5: is a continuation of those hateful texts. But now he
7:39
Speaker 5: gets to tell the entire world instead of just sending
7:43
Speaker 5: it to his mother.
7:45
Speaker 1: And of course, Skyla Zorro joining us. She's a veteran
7:48
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney joining us out of this jurisdiction, Utah.
7:52
Speaker 1: She has tons of experience in both state and federal cases. Skye,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us tonight. Of course, you
8:01
Speaker 1: can't put a son behind bars because of hateful texts. Now,
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Speaker 1: these texts are beyond any text I've ever gotten from
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Speaker 1: my children. And, you know, they've been angry, they've been upset,
8:16
Speaker 1: but nothing like that. Those texts do not a murder
8:22
Speaker 1: motive make, Skye.
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Speaker 7: They do not make a motive for murder. They certainly
8:28
Speaker 7: are not helpful. And it might show the underlying problems
8:33
Speaker 7: in the relationship. But those texts alone don't necessarily really
8:39
Speaker 7: help the state that much when it comes to murder,
8:41
Speaker 7: other than to show, look, these two didn't get along.
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Speaker 8: Well, I.
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Speaker 1: Don't know about that, too. David Sarney joining us. Guys,
8:49
Speaker 1: David Sarney. 27 years NYPD, now Professor John Jay College
8:56
Speaker 1: of Criminal Justice. David, thank you for being with us.
9:01
Speaker 1: I hear what Skyla Zorro is saying, and she's right.
9:04
Speaker 1: Those texts do not prove murder. However, they could go
9:10
Speaker 1: toward course of conduct, frame of mind, intent, motive. It
9:18
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a text like, Mom, I'm going
9:21
Speaker 1: to shoot you tonight at midnight. Get ready. Those could
9:25
Speaker 1: go to frame of mind, but I've never seen in
9:28
Speaker 1: all the years I've investigated and prosecuted a case that
9:32
Speaker 1: involved a seeming sex obsession on the part of the
9:38
Speaker 1: son toward the mother. Now, this is all circumstantial evidence.
9:42
Speaker 1: Of course, David Sarnia, I know that's the first thing
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Speaker 1: you're going to tell me. But I find that very,
9:47
Speaker 1: very bizarre.
9:50
Speaker 9: There are things that are interesting about this case. And
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Speaker 9: I always say, you know, the responding officers are initially
9:57
Speaker 9: the ones who will see what happened at that scene.
10:00
Speaker 9: And they're the ones who get a good feel of
10:02
Speaker 9: what happened. And when they get to the scene, you
10:04
Speaker 9: have the 911 caller there and the son who they ask, because,
10:08
Speaker 9: you know, it's urgent circumstance.
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Speaker 8: We don't know. There's two bodies. Could there be more?
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Speaker 8: Could he have been injured? They go around.
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Speaker 9: They find when they speak to the son and he goes,
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Speaker 9: I was sleeping during this whole thing. And that's already,
10:21
Speaker 9: that starts putting out those little signals in your head.
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Speaker 9: There's more to this than what he's saying at that moment.
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Speaker 8: That's never enough.
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Speaker 9: I've seen cases where DNA is not enough. I've seen
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Speaker 9: cases where statements or confessions are not enough. So this
10:34
Speaker 9: is the, you know, when we look for people of
10:37
Speaker 9: interest or suspects, he becomes suspect crime at that moment,
10:41
Speaker 9: but it doesn't matter.
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Speaker 8: We have to develop the evidence.
10:44
Speaker 9: That's why that crime scene, that crime scene has to
10:47
Speaker 9: be frozen at the time the police get there So
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Speaker 9: when we can actually start recovering forensic evidence, anything along
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Speaker 9: the lines of anything on the person, anything that could
10:57
Speaker 9: find out who was responsible for that, it takes time.
11:01
Speaker 9: And that's the one thing about this case. A crime scene,
11:03
Speaker 9: the good thing about this crime scene, and there's nothing
11:05
Speaker 9: really good about any crime scene.
11:06
Speaker 8: But it was central. It was in the house.
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Speaker 9: And then what you do is when you have that
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Speaker 9: part of the scene, you do what's called extended video
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Speaker 9: canvas or extended canvas, because you have apparently shell casings
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Speaker 9: at the scene. You have a possible witness who said
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Speaker 9: they were sleeping, but that doesn't.
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Speaker 8: Make any sense. And that's the thing.
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Speaker 9: You know, we talk about these cases all the time,
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Speaker 9: about murder investigations, about any type of case.
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Speaker 8: People can plan it.
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Speaker 9: They don't really plan the aftermath. And that's what we've
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Speaker 9: seen with the evidence that's been recovered. He was trying,
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Speaker 9: or at least notes were trying to say there was
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Speaker 9: a plan to hide evidence. But as we all know,
11:43
Speaker 9: as investigators, there's always something people leave behind. There's always
11:48
Speaker 9: an opportunity and the mistakes that are made. And that's
11:50
Speaker 9: why you have what you have in an arrest in
11:52
Speaker 9: this case.
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Speaker 1: Well, David Cerny, NYPD and John Jay College criminal justice,
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Speaker 1: you're absolutely correct. No murder weapon was ever found.
12:00
Speaker 5: There were just a bunch of ambulances pulled up for
12:03
Speaker 5: a couple of people outside.
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Speaker 8: Seemed pretty distressed.
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Speaker 9: She had just seen two individuals who were unresponsive and
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Speaker 9: covered with blood.
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Speaker 4: I've been having some nightmares.
12:15
Speaker 1: I've been having a hard time sleeping.
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Speaker 5: I've taken some extra precautions to make sure, you know,
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Speaker 5: my family is safe.
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Speaker 1: From our friends at KUTV, back to Vanessa Walsh joining us,
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Speaker 1: star of Unmasked True Crime. Vanessa, who discovered the mom
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Speaker 1: and the little boy, Eli, age eight's bodies?
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Speaker 4: So Jessica and Eli were discovered the next morning by
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Speaker 4: Jessica's 17-year-old daughter. And she found them both lying in
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Speaker 4: Jessica's bed. Their faces were covered in blood.
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Speaker 8: There was blood pooling.
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Speaker 4: Behind their head. And she immediately called 911. Eli had
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Speaker 4: been shot twice in the head and was pronounced dead
12:55
Speaker 4: at the scene. And Jessica was shot once in the head. Amazingly,
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Speaker 4: she was still alive, but she did pass away three
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Speaker 4: days later.
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Speaker 1: You stated that the mom's daughter found her. Where was
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Speaker 1: the daughter? at the time of the murders.
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Speaker 4: All we know is that she wasn't at home at
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Speaker 4: the time, but when she did get home around 10 a.m.,
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Speaker 4: she walked into the completely horrifying scene of her mother
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Speaker 4: and her little brother lying in Jessica's bed, covered in
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Speaker 4: blood and unresponsive.
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Speaker 1: To Dave Mack joining us from Crime Stories, I thought
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Speaker 1: the daughter was staying at her dad's home.
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Speaker 6: Nancy, that has been put out there in the media
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Speaker 6: that she was at her father's house, but that hasn't
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Speaker 6: been confirmed by any stretch. It's just that she got
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Speaker 6: home at 1015, found her mom and eight-year-old little brother,
13:53
Speaker 6: and immediately called police. And they referred to the call
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Speaker 6: as loud and frantic. And that call was made right
13:59
Speaker 6: outside her brother's bedroom door, which he claims he slept through.
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Speaker 1: I want to talk about how the scene was processed, too.
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Speaker 1: Jeff Gentry joining us forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst, senior
14:13
Speaker 1: crime scene analyst and death investigator, former toxicology author of
14:17
Speaker 1: Forensic Science Applications to Death and Crime Scene Investigations. You
14:23
Speaker 1: can find him at evidenceoverassumption.com. Jeff, if you had gone
14:29
Speaker 1: into this scene, what would you have looked for first?
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Speaker 8: Well, first I'd exercise all caution.
14:36
Speaker 10: Until you know your suspect, you're going to exercise extreme
14:41
Speaker 10: caution in this kind of case where you have a
14:44
Speaker 10: seemingly random murder with.
14:46
Speaker 8: Two people deceased.
14:47
Speaker 10: It's not until you start taking a deeper look into
14:50
Speaker 10: that and right away those text messages that you showed
14:53
Speaker 10: should be a big red flag, very concerning. That's going
14:56
Speaker 10: to put you on the right path trying to narrow
14:58
Speaker 10: down a suspect in a case where two people are
15:02
Speaker 10: apparently randomly murdered. That's how you start narrowing down that
15:05
Speaker 10: suspect list is looking at the obvious. And this text
15:08
Speaker 10: message should be very concerning. But first thing you're going
15:11
Speaker 10: to be concerned with in any murder investigation is processing
15:15
Speaker 10: of evidence. What is your most fragile evidence? There's going
15:18
Speaker 10: to be fibers, items that are transferred from one location
15:22
Speaker 10: to another, any cartridge casings, any sources of DNA, any
15:27
Speaker 10: sources of fingerprints. Those are going to be things that
15:30
Speaker 10: are going to be forensic links to your suspect. And
15:32
Speaker 10: so you have to exercise extreme caution when you're not
15:35
Speaker 10: only going in there to secure the scene, but when
15:37
Speaker 10: you're rendering aid, and then eventually when you're going to
15:39
Speaker 10: be processing that scene, you just have to be very
15:41
Speaker 10: cautious and you have to be well-educated and well-experienced in
15:46
Speaker 10: looking for these things because you don't want to miss
15:47
Speaker 10: a thing in this type of case. Every single little detail,
15:50
Speaker 10: every single little piece of evidence is going to help
15:52
Speaker 10: you to link that suspect forensically to your crime scene.
15:56
Speaker 1: Vanessa Walsh, what, if anything, did the son say when
16:02
Speaker 1: he was questioned by police? I mean, what was he
16:05
Speaker 1: doing when police arrived?
16:09
Speaker 4: So when investigators started clearing the house, the 15-year-old son
16:13
Speaker 4: kind of wandered out of his bedroom and said that
16:15
Speaker 4: he had been sleeping the entire time. So he claims
16:19
Speaker 4: he slept through the three gunshots the night before. that
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Speaker 4: he slept through, as Dave mentioned, the very loud and
16:25
Speaker 4: frantic 911 call that happened right outside of his bedroom,
16:29
Speaker 4: and that he also slept through the EMTs and the
16:32
Speaker 4: officers arriving on the scene. When they questioned him about,
16:38
Speaker 4: they asked him a very specific question about if he
16:40
Speaker 4: was aware of any weapons in the house. The 15-year-old
16:44
Speaker 4: interestingly answered that he was unaware of any guns in
16:48
Speaker 4: the home. And investigators did take note of that because
16:52
Speaker 4: at that time, they had not given him any details
16:54
Speaker 4: of the murder and they had not told him that
16:57
Speaker 4: his mother and his little brother had been shot.
16:59
Speaker 1: While many people would poo-poo the son's claim that he
17:03
Speaker 1: slept through the entire double murder, I've got to point
17:09
Speaker 1: out the murder of a gorgeous young mom or Sawyer
17:12
Speaker 1: Gale by a handyman. The son was suspected, but the son...
17:20
Speaker 1: said he slept through the entire thing. What was so
17:25
Speaker 1: disturbing in that case, among many things, was the lone
17:29
Speaker 1: male figure walking through the neighborhood in the early morning hours,
17:35
Speaker 1: dragging a rollerboard, leaving a blood trail, the blood of
17:41
Speaker 1: Arsalia Gale. And in that case... The son did sleep
17:47
Speaker 1: through the entire murder of his mother. So it has happened.
17:54
Speaker 1: It has happened before.
17:55
Speaker 5: Dr.
17:56
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, in that case, however, Ursula Gale was bludgeoned
18:03
Speaker 1: dead in the basement. In this case, the mom.
18:11
Speaker 1: Was murdered, Jessica was murdered by gunshot wound. There were
18:15
Speaker 1: three loud gunshots. And if he slept through that, he
18:21
Speaker 1: must have also slept through his sister who comes home
18:25
Speaker 1: from a sleepover at dad's and she's right outside his
18:29
Speaker 1: bedroom screaming into the 911 call. He slept through that too.
18:35
Speaker 1: I just want to hear all your thoughts, Dr. Bethany.
18:38
Speaker 5: Well, the other difference is that you have a disorganized
18:41
Speaker 5: handyman bludgeoning a woman to death, rolling a suitcase down
18:46
Speaker 5: the street with blood coming out. In this case, you
18:48
Speaker 5: have a very organized killer or somewhat organized killer who
18:53
Speaker 5: is maybe trying to cover his tracks, maybe saying, I
18:55
Speaker 5: was sleeping. If it was a son, we don't know.
18:57
Speaker 5: But I think an important clue to is the son's
19:02
Speaker 5: sexual preoccupation with his mother. That's aberrant. That's a perversion.
19:09
Speaker 5: And that could play a huge role in this crime.
19:11
Speaker 5: And what we see when sons are sexually and angrily
19:17
Speaker 5: and in a hostile way fixated with their mothers is
19:19
Speaker 5: you have a perfect storm of factors. often you have
19:23
Speaker 5: a mother and a father who separated during an important
19:27
Speaker 5: developmental time of the child. So we don't know how,
19:30
Speaker 5: when the father and mother divorced or separated, how old
19:34
Speaker 5: this son who, you know, we want to think about
19:36
Speaker 5: him since he was near the scene of the crime.
19:39
Speaker 5: Often the single parent, opposite sex parent, will turn to
19:43
Speaker 5: that child for gratification, emotional gratification. I'm not trying to
19:48
Speaker 5: blame the mom, but they'll be like, pizza nights and let's.
19:51
Speaker 1: Go out together.
19:52
Speaker 5: And the son starts to take on the role of
19:54
Speaker 5: the father who's no longer there. But then when the
19:57
Speaker 5: mother starts to develop her own life, maybe she starts
20:00
Speaker 5: to date or, you know, takes a new job, then
20:02
Speaker 5: the son gets destabilized, but there would have to be
20:05
Speaker 5: other factors, right? Rage towards the mother, a feeling of deprivation.
20:10
Speaker 5: Often there can be psychiatric illnesses, bipolar or OCD. But
20:16
Speaker 5: then the longing for the mother, to penetrate the mother,
20:20
Speaker 5: to have sex with the mother, to dominate her. to
20:22
Speaker 5: punish her becomes so strong that it gets almost fused
20:27
Speaker 5: and confused with eroticism and sexuality you know love and
20:31
Speaker 5: hate are opposite sides of the same coin hate love
20:34
Speaker 5: and sex often go together and i think if he
20:37
Speaker 5: is the perp which i have no idea i haven't
20:40
Speaker 5: examined him You'd want to know what destabilized him. Was
20:44
Speaker 5: there a sexual preoccupation that started with gratification, then hatred,
20:48
Speaker 5: then the feeling the mother had withdrawn everything she'd done
20:52
Speaker 5: for him before and now he wants to punish her
20:54
Speaker 5: for it? That's what I would be looking for.
20:59
Speaker 1: It's a tale as old as time, an obsession with
21:04
Speaker 1: the mom. It can happen with either sons or daughters.
21:09
Speaker 1: For instance, here's an incredible example, a disturbing example of
21:15
Speaker 1: Derrick Rosa.
21:17
Speaker 11: Miss, I killed my mom.
21:19
Speaker 9: How did you kill your mom?
21:20
Speaker 6: I grabbed the knife from the kitchen, and.
21:23
Speaker 9: While she was sleeping, I stabbed her in the throat
21:25
Speaker 9: and in the back.
21:28
Speaker 1: Okay, where is the knife right now?
21:31
Speaker 6: I put it.
21:31
Speaker 1: Let me check.
21:33
Speaker 8: Wait.
21:35
Speaker 10: I can't find the knife.
21:37
Speaker 1: I need to know if your mom is breathing.
21:40
Speaker 9: What type of knife was it, do you know?
22:09
Speaker 8: It was in his kitchen knife.
22:11
Speaker 7: That big?
22:11
Speaker 5: Yeah.
22:12
Speaker 8: Your mom was sleeping? Yeah, she was sleeping. And then
22:15
Speaker 8: she woke up?
22:15
Speaker 5: Yes.
22:16
Speaker 8: Did you say anything else to her? Did she say
22:18
Speaker 8: anything to you or no? No, she just screamed. She
22:21
Speaker 8: just screamed?
22:22
Speaker 5: Yes.
22:22
Speaker 1: To Dave Mack, the problem was, I don't know if
22:24
Speaker 1: you caught it on the 911 call, he actually sent
22:29
Speaker 1: a photo of himself to his friends from the bloody
22:34
Speaker 1: crime scene bragging that he had just murdered his mom.
22:39
Speaker 8: He did.
22:40
Speaker 6: Nancy, I remember when we covered that case, it was
22:43
Speaker 6: just emotionally devastating when you listen to what that child
22:48
Speaker 6: did or what that boy did. Sending out pictures to friends,
22:52
Speaker 6: bragging about what he had done. It's just shocking to
22:56
Speaker 6: the soul that a person could do that to their mother.
23:00
Speaker 1: Another issue, back to what you were saying earlier, Dr.
23:03
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, is that Derek Rosa murdered his mother and
23:08
Speaker 1: Sleeping beside her in a crib, beside the mom's bed,
23:12
Speaker 1: was the baby sister, the infant baby sister. The mom
23:17
Speaker 1: had remarried and had just had the baby sister. Here
23:22
Speaker 1: is a shot of the three of them, the mom,
23:25
Speaker 1: the new husband, and the defendant. And she's pregnant. That
23:34
Speaker 1: is Derek Rosa and his mother. shortly before he murdered her.
23:42
Speaker 1: And you were saying earlier, Dr. Bethany, you were pointing
23:47
Speaker 1: out anger over the mom remarrying or the mom getting
23:51
Speaker 1: a new job or the mom having another baby. I
23:54
Speaker 1: found it very significant in the Rosa case that he
23:57
Speaker 1: murdered his mother with the baby daughter right beside her bed.
24:04
Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, and I'm thinking of so many cases
24:06
Speaker 5: you've covered like this, where really what led to simmering
24:12
Speaker 5: and smoldering resentment spilling over into actual homicide intent and
24:18
Speaker 5: the final action is that there is the reintroduction of
24:22
Speaker 5: a new baby, a younger sibling, somebody who's getting mother's attention.
24:27
Speaker 5: And if you have a young person, like, seven eight
24:30
Speaker 5: nine ten who already wants to jealously possess the mother
24:33
Speaker 5: okay wants everything from the mother the mother is trying
24:36
Speaker 5: to develop a life the the son or the daughter
24:39
Speaker 5: becomes resentful then a new baby comes along and mommy's
24:43
Speaker 5: able to give everything to the new baby that mommy's
24:47
Speaker 5: not giving to the current eight nine or ten year
24:49
Speaker 5: old okay and so when you think in this current
24:52
Speaker 5: case his Eight-year-old younger sibling was also murdered at the
24:59
Speaker 5: same time. I think that is incredibly important. And what
25:04
Speaker 5: we'd have to look at is if the teen son
25:07
Speaker 5: did it and he was becoming destabilized and hateful towards
25:11
Speaker 5: the mother, did she bond in a stronger way with
25:14
Speaker 5: the eight-year-old sibling? because he was simply a healthier child
25:18
Speaker 5: and someone where there was more gratification. We also have
25:21
Speaker 5: to look at psychiatric illness. Again, I treated a mother
25:24
Speaker 5: whose 14-year-old daughter was homicidal, and they had very few resources.
25:30
Speaker 5: We talked through how to protect herself at night and
25:32
Speaker 5: barricade the door and all of that, but this was
25:35
Speaker 5: following a separation from her husband where the daughter had bipolar,
25:40
Speaker 5: became destabilized, and became preoccupied with possessing her mother. And
25:45
Speaker 5: if she couldn't have everything from her mother, didn't get
25:49
Speaker 5: all of her needs gratified or met, she just wanted
25:51
Speaker 5: to kill her. So it's jealousy, possession, extracting from the mother,
25:56
Speaker 5: bleeding the mother dry, being parasitic, being like a leech.
26:00
Speaker 5: All those things come together in kind of an adolescent way.
26:05
Speaker 1: And here is a teen girl seemingly obsessed with her mom.
26:10
Speaker 1: Her name is Sarah Grace Patrick, who actually gave a
26:14
Speaker 1: eulogy for her parents and then was charged in their murders.
26:18
Speaker 1: For those of you who do not know me, my
26:21
Speaker 1: name is Sarah, and I am Kristen Brock's daughter and
26:25
Speaker 1: James Brock's stepdaughter.
26:27
Speaker 8: This isn't easy. I don't know how many of you
26:29
Speaker 8: do this all the time, but I'm really happy I
26:32
Speaker 8: get to do this. But bear with me because I
26:35
Speaker 8: stutter a lot.
26:37
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say goodbye to my mom and
26:39
Speaker 1: James since we never got the chance to.
26:42
Speaker 11: I was so used to you guys always being here
26:44
Speaker 11: to the point that I never once.
26:45
Speaker 2: Thought to imagine y'all not being here.
26:47
Speaker 7: I didn't have a single clue how much I needed
26:50
Speaker 7: y'all to know.
26:51
Speaker 5: For James, thank you for all the life lessons you
26:54
Speaker 5: taught me and for being the best, honest dad ever.
26:57
Speaker 11: Your heart will finally be healed in heaven and neither
26:59
Speaker 11: of y'all will be in any pain anymore.
27:01
Speaker 1: Although that gives me so much comfort, your fight was
27:05
Speaker 1: not supposed to end there.
27:06
Speaker 11: On the morning of February 20th, 2025, Deputies with the
27:10
Speaker 11: Carroll County Sheriff's Office responded to a tragic scene at
27:16
Speaker 11: 1531 Carrollton Tyus Road. They discovered the bodies of James Brock, 45,
27:22
Speaker 11: and Kristen Brock, 41, both deceased from apparent gunshot wounds.
27:27
Speaker 11: From the very moment the 911 call was received, a
27:30
Speaker 11: relentless investigation began. one that would span months, consume thousands
27:35
Speaker 11: of man hours, and require the full weight of the
27:38
Speaker 11: local and federal law enforcement agency partnerships. Today, we can
27:43
Speaker 11: confirm that an arrest has been made in the case.
27:47
Speaker 11: Kristen Brock's 17-year-old daughter, Sarah Grace Patrick, has been taken
27:52
Speaker 11: into custody and charged with two counts of murder and
27:56
Speaker 11: two counts of aggravated assault.
27:58
Speaker 1: That eulogy video of Sarah Grace Patrick crying and snotting
28:03
Speaker 1: about the parents that she reportedly kills, she's awaiting trial,
28:07
Speaker 1: is from Kristen Douda. Then, of course, there is a case,
28:10
Speaker 1: can't forget this one, 14-year-old Carly Gregg, also obsessed with
28:15
Speaker 1: her mother.
28:15
Speaker 3: What's the location of her missing?
28:19
Speaker 11: Carly Gregg.
28:28
Speaker 5: Fourteen? Fourteen?
28:55
Speaker 4: Where's the mom at?
29:24
Speaker 7: Sir.
29:24
Speaker 1: Sir.
29:24
Speaker 5: Okay, sir.
29:24
Speaker 4: Where is your wife?
29:27
Speaker 5: Sir.
29:30
Speaker 4: Oh, God, why?
29:31
Speaker 5: Okay, sir.
29:32
Speaker 9: Where is your wife?
29:34
Speaker 8: She's dead on the floor of.
29:35
Speaker 6: My daughter's stepdaughter's room.
29:37
Speaker 4: She's on the floor in your stepdaughter's room?
29:44
Speaker 5: Yeah.
29:44
Speaker 6: What's your wife's name?
29:45
Speaker 7: Ashley Smiley.
29:46
Speaker 11: Ashley Smiley?
29:48
Speaker 4: Yeah.
30:01
Speaker 8: Was there any problem, sir?
30:03
Speaker 6: Sir, I need you to speak with me, okay?
30:04
Speaker 1: Can you go outside the house and speak to me?
30:10
Speaker 4: Okay.
30:11
Speaker 1: I need you to talk to me.
30:15
Speaker 8: What is your son wearing? He was in jeans.
30:17
Speaker 11: And a grayish t-shirt.
30:18
Speaker 8: He's got short, brownish hair. So, jeans, a grayish t-shirt, short,
30:22
Speaker 8: brown hair. She ran into the backyard. I tried to
30:26
Speaker 8: follow her. She jumped the fence and ran.
30:31
Speaker 11: She's happening to check.
30:34
Speaker 5: It's okay.
30:35
Speaker 8: Does she still have the gun?
30:37
Speaker 7: It's on the kitchen counter, I think.
30:38
Speaker 8: One lot round left in your dog.
30:41
Speaker 5: He's still under.
30:42
Speaker 8: Go in in the back.
30:45
Speaker 5: That's mom.
30:46
Speaker 7: That's mom.
30:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:47
Speaker 8: Mom and dad.
30:50
Speaker 9: Both got it.
30:51
Speaker 8: Mom and dad both what?
30:52
Speaker 5: Got hit?
30:53
Speaker 1: Okay.
30:54
Speaker 5: And dad's?
31:00
Speaker 6: He's already in the ambulance.
31:05
Speaker 1: Veteran defense attorney out of the Utah jurisdiction where this mom, Jessica,
31:11
Speaker 1: is murdered. To Skyla Zorro, defense attorney, it's kind of
31:17
Speaker 1: hard to argue with body cam. You see the stepdad
31:20
Speaker 1: lying on the porch saying she just shot me in
31:22
Speaker 1: the neck. It's hard to defeat evidence like that. And
31:26
Speaker 1: I guarantee you in this case, there's going to be
31:28
Speaker 1: body cams. In this case, where Jessica Lyman's son comes up, hey,
31:38
Speaker 1: why are the police here? You know that's going to
31:41
Speaker 1: be on body cam. Like he didn't hear three gunshots
31:46
Speaker 1: right down the hall and his sister screaming into 911.
31:50
Speaker 1: Good luck with that.
31:54
Speaker 7: Not an easy defense to make, Nancy, for sure. But
31:58
Speaker 7: this is a 15, 16-year-old kid. He could have had
32:02
Speaker 7: earbuds in.
32:03
Speaker 1: 17. Could have slept through anything.
32:06
Speaker 7: It's hard.
32:07
Speaker 1: 17.
32:08
Speaker 7: Either way, there's explanations, I think, for not hearing things.
32:13
Speaker 8: I do think you're right.
32:14
Speaker 7: I think the body cam probably is going to reveal
32:16
Speaker 7: a lot more in this case. But as of right now,
32:20
Speaker 7: you know, he is charged in juvenile court, but most
32:22
Speaker 7: of this evidence surrounding him is really circumstantial. You know,
32:26
Speaker 7: they're looking at videos, surveillance videos of outside that show
32:32
Speaker 7: maybe a couple figures. The best they can do is
32:36
Speaker 7: say that the shadowy figure matches.
32:40
Speaker 1: It's a male figure that fits his description, although his
32:46
Speaker 1: face isn't seen. at his height and weight, wearing clothes
32:50
Speaker 1: similar to him, to what he had, and wearing a
32:55
Speaker 1: backpack that was found discarded by a river in their neighborhood.
33:01
Speaker 7: I take issue, Nancy, with the surveillance cams like that.
33:10
Speaker 7: Those cameras are not great. And if you want to
33:12
Speaker 7: say someone fits someone's description, that could be one of
33:15
Speaker 7: many people around the neighborhood or just individuals in general.
33:21
Speaker 7: Maybe we see something come out of forensics from the
33:26
Speaker 7: backpack that tie it to him more definitively. But those
33:32
Speaker 7: surveillance cameras or videos alone.
33:35
Speaker 5: You're right.
33:36
Speaker 8: That just.
33:38
Speaker 1: And it brings to mind that I'm sorry. You remember
33:42
Speaker 1: the Tepe killings that you and I discussed? That video
33:45
Speaker 1: from our friends at KUTV, by the way. Remember walking
33:49
Speaker 1: along the back alley, what, 3 a.m.? A guy looks
33:52
Speaker 1: just like Mrs. Tepe's, Monique Tepe's ex-husband, the freaky stalker,
33:58
Speaker 1: medical doctor. And guess what? It was him. Looks just
34:03
Speaker 1: like him. Bam. But I see what you're saying. Circumstantial evidence.
34:09
Speaker 1: You have to have it to tie that backpack. back
34:12
Speaker 1: to the sun in this case. And speaking of Jeff Gentry,
34:18
Speaker 1: gunshot residue. Gunshot residue is as fine as baby powder.
34:24
Speaker 1: That's why you can't let a suspect even go to
34:27
Speaker 1: the bathroom because one wash under the sink, it's gone.
34:30
Speaker 1: You can even do this and get rid of gunshot residue.
34:36
Speaker 1: And isn't it true that gunshot residue upon firing a
34:39
Speaker 1: weapon usually travels about at the most, 36 inches?
34:44
Speaker 10: Yeah, gunshot residue is all the little small metal particles
34:48
Speaker 10: and all the products after a firearm is fired. So
34:52
Speaker 10: it is going to disperse throughout the scene. And obviously,
34:56
Speaker 10: the people that are closest to that gunshot or that
34:59
Speaker 10: weapon being fired are going to have gunshot residue deposited
35:03
Speaker 10: on them. And in theory, the shooter should have gunshot
35:06
Speaker 10: residue on their hand, their clothing, on their body. uh,
35:10
Speaker 10: in close proximity to that firearm. The victim will likely
35:14
Speaker 10: also have some gunshot residue on them too, if they're
35:17
Speaker 10: in close proximity to that firearm, but it's a very
35:19
Speaker 10: good way to narrow down who was the shooter, who
35:23
Speaker 10: was the victim, who was close by this firearm. And
35:25
Speaker 10: you're very right.
35:26
Speaker 8: It is fragile evidence.
35:27
Speaker 10: So it is something that you would want to secure
35:29
Speaker 10: right away. You want to make sure that the suspects
35:32
Speaker 10: or anybody that's involved in a shooting incident is, um,
35:36
Speaker 10: kept isolated or their clothes are collected right away or
35:39
Speaker 10: their hands are swabbed right away because you don't want
35:42
Speaker 10: to miss that critical evidence. In some cases, you don't
35:45
Speaker 10: have gunshot residue, but when you do have it, it
35:47
Speaker 10: can be very helpful in pinpointing who was the shooter.
35:50
Speaker 8: Who was not.
35:54
Speaker 1: David Sarney joining us, former NYPD, now adjunct professor, John
35:58
Speaker 1: Jay College of Criminal Justice. David, many, many times, investigators
36:05
Speaker 1: are so busy securing the scene that they don't keep
36:08
Speaker 1: an eye on a potential suspect. And they go, hey,
36:11
Speaker 1: can I run to the bathroom? They go, sure. There
36:13
Speaker 1: goes the gunshot residue. It's gone just like that.
36:16
Speaker 9: Again, that's why the first officers on scene do a
36:20
Speaker 9: really good job because they secure the scene. They have
36:23
Speaker 9: their body camera video. They have their statements made in
36:27
Speaker 9: an exigent circumstance. And as defense attorneys will do, they
36:30
Speaker 9: will challenge everything. So as an investigator, you refute it
36:33
Speaker 9: with evidence. And that's why little bits and pieces don't
36:37
Speaker 9: add up until you get to totality of circumstances. He
36:41
Speaker 9: said he was sleeping at the time. There's apparently DNA residue,
36:45
Speaker 9: seminal fluid at the residence. Apparently, when they take his,
36:49
Speaker 9: they notice he has a scratch on his shoulder. That's
36:53
Speaker 9: when the investigators go into play. So they take his clothes.
36:56
Speaker 9: They take photos of the injury. They also going to
36:58
Speaker 9: do a full, when they do the autopsy, DNA search
37:01
Speaker 9: on the bodies, on the victims, in this case, you
37:05
Speaker 9: bag their hands, see if there's any type of skin
37:09
Speaker 9: cells underneath their fingers. And that scratch, does that match
37:13
Speaker 9: a scratch on the victims at that time?
37:17
Speaker 8: All these things come into play.
37:19
Speaker 9: You could refute every piece of evidence, but that's why
37:22
Speaker 9: when you talk about crime scenes and talk about the
37:24
Speaker 9: importance of documentation, the importance of securing that evidence, When
37:29
Speaker 9: we ask a question, we have to answer it out.
37:31
Speaker 9: And that's what the forensic evidence does here. Not everything
37:36
Speaker 9: adds up to everything. It's very circumstantial. Video is circumstantial
37:39
Speaker 9: at one point. You could have DNA circumstantial at one point.
37:41
Speaker 9: But as each piece falls into play, that's why it
37:45
Speaker 9: took so long to get this arrest. Because, you know,
37:48
Speaker 9: they have an arrest. They have the murder almost a
37:50
Speaker 9: year after the fact. But this is why it took
37:52
Speaker 9: so long to get the text messages, to get communications.
37:58
Speaker 9: from the parents, you know, the father getting involved and
38:01
Speaker 9: the father actually stopping the kid from actually cooperating anymore.
38:04
Speaker 9: You had to get their phones. You had to get
38:06
Speaker 9: surveillance cameras. You get all of that. And, you know,
38:09
Speaker 9: when you had the initial story done by at the
38:12
Speaker 9: time of the witness, which is the time he's a witness,
38:14
Speaker 9: we now have things refute what he said at the
38:17
Speaker 9: time when he said it.
38:19
Speaker 1: And speaking of gunshot residue described so perfectly by David
38:24
Speaker 1: Sarney and Jeff Gentry, Vanessa Walsh, is it true that
38:29
Speaker 1: there is GSR evidence in this case?
38:35
Speaker 4: Yes, Nancy, that's correct. Investigators found gunshot residue on multiple
38:40
Speaker 4: items of the 15-year-old's son, including items that he was
38:45
Speaker 4: wearing on the morning when investigators arrived on the scene.
38:50
Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa. Vanessa Walsh, there is gunshot residue on him,
38:55
Speaker 1: the son. on his body, and on the clothes. He
38:59
Speaker 1: was still wearing the same clothes and had not gotten
39:03
Speaker 1: rid of gunshot residue?
39:06
Speaker 4: That's correct. Investigators found that not only was it on
39:11
Speaker 4: his clothes, but it was on the same clothes that
39:13
Speaker 4: he was wearing when they got there. So although there
39:16
Speaker 4: could be potentially other explanations, that one's going to be
39:20
Speaker 4: hard to explain away.
39:22
Speaker 1: And to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of
39:25
Speaker 1: the LA jurisdiction, I showed you those similar transactions, for instance,
39:32
Speaker 1: of Sarah Grace Patrick and Carly Gregg, in addition to
39:36
Speaker 1: Derek Rosa, because both genders of children can get obsessed
39:43
Speaker 1: with their mothers.
39:46
Speaker 5: Nancy, as you said earlier, it's a story that's as
39:49
Speaker 5: old as time. And I've often had older patients in
39:53
Speaker 5: my practice, 30s, 40s, 50s, who are still preoccupied with
39:57
Speaker 5: their parents. And you know what's always at the core
40:00
Speaker 5: there somewhere? is they think they're going to get something
40:05
Speaker 5: from their parents. Like, I'm going to get an inheritance
40:08
Speaker 5: if they die. My mom promised to buy me a
40:12
Speaker 5: small prop plane, but she's not writing the check. But
40:16
Speaker 5: I know after she goes, I just thought I could
40:18
Speaker 5: write the checks myself and get that plane. Or if
40:21
Speaker 5: you think of a 10-year-old, I... I wanted a new
40:24
Speaker 5: bike for Christmas, or I wanted to go play with
40:28
Speaker 5: my friends. Or you think of a teenage girl. My
40:31
Speaker 5: parent wouldn't let me hang out with my boyfriend, so
40:33
Speaker 5: I'm going to kill them. So what is our earliest
40:36
Speaker 5: relationship with our mothers? We get things from them. They
40:39
Speaker 5: give us life. They give birth to us. They nurture us.
40:42
Speaker 5: They feed us. And some people, we think of psychopathology,
40:46
Speaker 5: are so disturbed that that when that perfect flow is
40:51
Speaker 5: disrupted in any way, they become resentful, angry, and preoccupied
40:56
Speaker 5: with getting what they feel was lost.
41:00
Speaker 1: The investigation goes on, but tonight we are also learning
41:04
Speaker 1: that video surveillance inside the home also reveals audio in
41:11
Speaker 1: the home. Gunshots are heard shortly after an intense argument
41:18
Speaker 1: between the mom, Jessica, and the son. About two to
41:24
Speaker 1: three minutes after that argument, three gunshots are heard. If
41:29
Speaker 1: you know or think you know anything regarding this case,
41:33
Speaker 1: please dial 801-766-6503. We remember an American hero, Sergeant Chris Fisher,
41:36
Speaker 1: Warm Springs PD, Georgia, just 36 years shot and killed
41:48
Speaker 1: in the line of duty, leaving behind a wife, now widow,
41:53
Speaker 1: and two beautiful children. American hero Sergeant Chris Fisher. Thank
42:00
Speaker 1: you to our guests, but especially to you for being
42:02
Speaker 1: with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but
42:04
Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.
42:08
Speaker 11: Good night.